Autism Blog - The John Best Junior Thread

13 Apr 2006

Author: Kev
Comments: 195

The John Best Junior Thread

For some time now, John (aka ForeSam to the uninitiated) has been crying that he’s been banned from this blog and been using that ban as an excuse. I’ve decided to call his bluff.

For this thread, and this thread only, John will be free to argue, debate, insult, rage, pontificate and generally be the John Best we know and love.

In this thread will be discussing the following:

1) John’s belief that Eli Lilly invented autism in 1931. John says autism did not exist before Jan 1st 1931.
2) John’s belief that all autism is mercury poisoning from thiomersal in vaccines.
3) John’s belief that there was no autism in China prior to 1999. John says autism did not exist in China until Jan 1st 1999.
4) John’s role as speaker at mercury militia marches and his position with Generation Rescue
5) John’s opinion on homosexuality, which he believes is ‘a perversion’, and his subsequent opinion of David Kirby.
6) John’s belief that as an adult male, fist fighting with his eight year old autistic son is a sign of good parenting.
7) John’s belief that there has been an epidemic of autism.
8) John’s belief that because Dan Olmsted didn’t find any autistic Amish, this proves thiomersal causes autism.
9) John’s belief that it is acceptable to state that women he disagree’s with should be ‘horsewhipped’
10) John’s belief that phoning people he disagree’s with at their homes to abuse with them is acceptable.
11) John’s belief that the word ‘muslim’ is interchangable with the word ‘terrorist’.

Go for it. Either now, or wait for the man himself to defend himself. Just remember that John is typical member of the thiomersal/autim connection. I of course am open to correction on that from other believers of the thiomersal/autism connection along with an explanation of why.

Also remember John is a fully ‘paid up’ Generation Rescue Rescue Angel and his views on all the above should be taken as representative of that organisation, unless of course, anyone from that org would like to deny John’s involvement with them on record.

Link to this post?

If you want to reference this post in your site, use the code below to link to me from your website.

<a href="http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2006/04/the-john-best-junior-thread/">The John Best Junior Thread</a>

Comments

195 Responses to “The John Best Junior Thread”

Kassiane
April 13th, 2006
08:04:40

What I learned from JBjr:

Rescue Angels are very unhappy abusive people. Most aren’t too intelligent either. Calling people braindamaged just because they disagree with one’s view is hardly a mark of being the brightest crayon in the box.

What a sad life. Maybe we should cure him.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
08:54:25

Kreml:

You can read about Tim Ziegewied’s EoH based call to abuse of Lisa randall here and you can read John’s threat to Lisa over on Dr Flea’s blog here in which he states:

“Should I have Tim call you again to teach you some basics about autism that you’re incapable of understanding?”

The fist fighting thing: John thinks that teaching his autistic son to fight will make him not a ‘pussy’.

You can read a lot of John’s thoughts on Josephs blog here including the line:

“Any decent father teaches his sons how to fight. Otherwise, they might grow up to be pussies”

That link references many of John’s quotes. But I’m sure he’ll come on here and verify them for himself.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
09:19:56

OK, in John’s absence I’m going to start by tackling point number one in my list:

John says that autism did not exist before Jan 1st 1931 and that it (autism) was invented by Eli Lilly

(No sniggering at the back now)

John is a big fan of anecdotal evidence. He regularly claims that he ‘knows’ cured children and that he ‘knows’ chelation is curing his son. In a similar vein then I offer my own anecdotal evidence.

My great Uncle and great Aunt were both born before 1920. Both were on the spectrum. My great uncle was diagnosed with ‘classic’ (Kanners) autism and my great aunt was AS.

Thus using John’s own method of establishing facts, I have ‘proven’ the existence of autism before 1931.

What’s that? You want peer reviewed evidence John? Oh well – if you insist:

“The article…...provid[es] information about children with autism before the condition was formally named in 1943.”

In fact the paper identifies autism as far back as the 1880’s, over 50 years before thiomersal was put into vaccines.

Well, the author must be one of those whackjob Neuro(sic)diverse right?

In fact, the author is Paul Shattock, friend and confidant of Andrew Wakefield.

I’d like to ask that commenters ‘hang fire’ until John responds to these points.

Over to you John.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
12:03:57

There were defensemen who scored goals, skated well and killed power plays before Bobby Orr. That doesn’t make them Bobby Orr. Kanner told us this autism had never been seen before. That excludes all of these people who may have had some autistic symptoms.
You have not given any guess as to why your 19th century “autistics” had the condition. Even a guess on your part would be helpful. I’ll have to assume it was due to English inbreeding and probably the start of the fragile X condition. Of course, I don’t know if these people were hatmakers or worked in some other industry that may have given them mercury poisoning. I don’t know if their parents were drunks and the kids really had fetal alcohol syndrome which could be misdiagnosed as autism especially if someone did not have this information when diagnosing posthumously.
You didn’t tell us a lot about your relatives. Could they talk? Did they smear feces? Could they cross the street without help? Were they just anti-social? Were they drug addicts who weren’t comfortable in the company of sober people? Did they have “gut” problems? Were they vaccinated after 1931?
Have to go deal with kids. I’ll be back later.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
12:54:52

“There were defensemen who scored goals, skated well and killed power plays before Bobby Orr. That doesnâ€™t make them Bobby Orr.”

And your point is….? We’re not talking about someone being good at sport, we’re talking about whether or not someone fulfills the criteria for a medical diagnosis. These children did. In 1880. For autism.

“Kanner told us this autism had never been seen before. That excludes all of these people who may have had some autistic symptoms.”

Why? Kanner also said that people who were parents of autistic kids were cold, emotionally distant parents. Do you subscribe to all his opinions or just the ones that support your beliefs?

Here’s an interesting story John:

“Scientists who went shopping recently at an Asian food market got more than they bargained forâ€”a rodent unknown to science….”

Now, in your opinion, was that rodent there before the scientists turned up….or did it spring fully formed into existence at the very second those scientists entered that market?

“You have not given any guess as to why your 19th century â€œautisticsâ€ had the condition.”

Thats irrelevent John. You say that there was no autism prior to 1931. Thats it. I just showed you you were wrong. if you want to talk about how those autistic people got that condition we can do that later. For now, we’re talking about when autism started. Full stop.

“Iâ€™ll have to assume it was due to English inbreeding and probably the start of the fragile X condition. Of course, I donâ€™t know if these people were hatmakers or worked in some other industry that may have given them mercury poisoning. I donâ€™t know if their parents were drunks and the kids really had fetal alcohol syndrome which could be misdiagnosed as autism especially if someone did not have this information when diagnosing posthumously.”

Again, thats all irrelevant John. We’re talking about at what point autism can be established to have existed. Children meeting the DSM criteria existed in 1880. It really is that simple. If you want to talk about why they might’ve been autistic we can do that later. Right now we’re talking about when autism existed.

“You didnâ€™t tell us a lot about your relatives.”

What does that matter? Using your fact establishing methods of simple assertion, I have proved the existence of autistic people before 1931. How they got that way is irrelevant right now.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
13:16:19

What about the Scientologists? They don’t vaccinate so they shouldn’t have any autistic children right? There’s a population for Olmsted to ‘study’
century
April 13th, 2006
13:29:17

“They were certainly geniuses, but did Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton also have autism? According to autism expert Simon Baron-Cohen, they might both have shown many signs of Asperger syndrome, a form of the condition that does not cause learning difficulties.

Although he admits that it is impossible to make a definite diagnosis for someone who is no longer living, Baron-Cohen says he hopes this kind of analysis can shed light on why some people with autism excel in life, while others struggle.”

And

“Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist from the University of California at San Francisco, is not convinced. He says attempting to diagnose on the basis of biographical information is extremely unreliable, and points out that any behaviour can have various causes. He thinks being highly intelligent would itself have shaped Newton and Einstein’s personalities.”

see http://www.newscientist.com/ar.....9018dn3676

One cannot diagnose retrospectivey. It is purely speculation.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
13:38:04

“One cannot diagnose retrospectivey. It is purely speculation.”

Not so. These kids were studied via case notes from a reputable London Hospital still in existence today. This wasn’t speculation about famous people or based on biographical information. The Shattock team took the case studies of these kids and compared their described symptoms to the DSM criteria – bingo!

Or, how about this from Dr Darold Treffert of the Wisconsin Medical Society. He came across the notes of Dr Landon Down (who gave Down’s Syndrome its name). Dr Landon Down described some of the kids in his care in the following ways:

“world of their own,” talking in the “third person,” being in a “dreamland,”“echolalia,”“self-contained and self-absorbed,” “automatic and rhythmical movements,” a countenance and “repose of brightness and intelligence,” lack of “physical features” of retardation, “no response in words,”“

Sound familiar?
Joseph
April 13th, 2006
13:52:11

Too bad I need to go out of town for the rest of the week. This will be a quote fest. About autism in China before 1999, I recommend searching Pubmed for ‘autism china’ and ‘autism chinese’ – go to the last page. There’s one study titled ‘Infantile Autism in China’, but I haven’t found the abstract or the article. There are a number of other articles that clearly indicate that a diagnosis of autism did exist in China before 1999.
Joseph
April 13th, 2006
13:59:29

“One cannot diagnose retrospectivey. It is purely speculation.â€

Diagnoses of autism (except for Fragile-X, Rett syndrome, etc.) are inherently subjective. Diagnosing from biographies, employment evaluations and such is really not that different to a regular diagnosis.
Lisa Randall
April 13th, 2006
14:05:24

Clone 3g – I think it’s the Christian Scientists who don’t vaccinate (or do any other kind of medical care, if they can avoid it). I believe the thought is that illness is a sign of spiritual weakness, so what we would think of as symptoms of illness are actually symptoms of needing more prayer.

Which illustrates, from my lay perspective at least, one of the many flaws in a simplistic up-or-down approach: Christian Scientists would be disinclined to entertain the possibility that their children were autistic, because that would be an admission that they’d been insufficiently trained in the faith, so those children are vastly less likely to be taken to developmental pediatricians or early intervention specialists or special ed programs, particularly in cases that could be equivocal. I think this is what is known as differential health care seeking behavior, and it would be a serious confounder in the type of study suggested by the likes of Carolyn Maloney. Of course, if one tried to control for it statistically, one would be accused of cooking the data by those whose interests (financial and otherwise) are served by the autism-mercury hypothesis.
century
April 13th, 2006
14:05:46

Kev said

“The Shattock team took the case studies of these kids and compared their described symptoms to the DSM criteria â€“ bingo”

Have you a link for this?

Also,

“Dr Landon Down described some of the kids in his care in the following ways:

â€œworld of their own,â€ talking in the â€œthird person,â€ being in a â€œdreamland,â€â€œecholalia,â€â€œself-contained and self-absorbed,â€ â€œautomatic and rhythmical movements,â€ a countenance and â€œrepose of brightness and intelligence,â€ lack of â€œphysical featuresâ€ of retardation, â€œno response in words,â€”

How many children is he talking about? – out of a case load of how many? I’m just curious – no view either way yet.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
14:15:37

“Have you a link for this?”

As above – link goes through to aut.sagepub

“How many children is he talking about? â€“ out of a case load of how many? Iâ€™m just curious â€“ no view either way yet.”

I don’t think Treffert reported on case load at all – just gave more of an overview of LD’s reports. The link is upthread, but if you missed it click here.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
14:34:51

Lisa – both you and Clone are right :o) John Travolta is refusing to admit his child is autistic:

“The couple cannot even publicly admit that their son is afflicted with a neurological disorder, lest â€“ according to the incontrovertible doctrine of Scientology founder L Ron Hubbard â€“ he be labeled a â€œdegraded beingâ€ that brought his affliction onto himself…. Scientology will not even recognize the disability, let alone the myriad therapies for treating it,”

link

Awful.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
14:54:27

Kev;
I apologize for using an analogy that was over your head. I could have used Secretariat but you probably wouldn’t have understood that either.
Something never seen before means exactly that. Kanner’s assertion was not just a different term for an existing condition. He was not including previously diagnosed people with mental retardation in with the autistics he discovered. He didn’t figure out that the condition was really mercury poisoning but that is what he discovered.
Your claim that the cause of the autism is irrelevant is ludicrous. Fragile X and Rhett’s may be lumped in with autism but we know them as distinguishable from mercury poisoning. It would be important to learn if these 19th century people were so afflicted or not.
We know Asperger’s as a lesser form of autism, probably just less susceptibility to mercury poisoning. It could also be simply weirdness in the case of those adults who diagnose themselves as adults. They are able to talk and learn which makes that condition different from the kids who can’t do those things. You’re associated with a bunch of people with Asperger’s and have accepted their views on autism when their condition is much different than your kid’s who can not speak. How do you know they aren’t simply intelligent people who are socially inept and jumped on the Asperger’s diagnosis as an excuse for this fault? Some of them claim to be able to pass themselves off as normal. This proves they have the ability to correct that fault to some extent. My kid can’t correct that fault along with millions of others who are just like him.
Maybe if we used the acronym MP for mercury poisoning which is what Kanner found it would be easier to discuss the other variations of autism. Your 19th century stuff could’ve been MP or it could’ve been one of the genetic forms or something else with similar symptoms. Maybe it was a genetic condition that is now non-existent. The cause may not be important to you but it is to those of us who want to help our kids.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
15:23:12

“Something never seen before means exactly that. Kannerâ€™s assertion was not just a different term for an existing condition.”

Except that the anecdotal evidence of my own family and the scientific evidence of Shattock et al demonstrates that you are incorrect. People matching the DSM criteria were in existence in the 1880’s. And what do we call people matching the DSM criteria….thats right John…autistic. Good boy!

“Your claim that the cause of the autism is irrelevant is ludicrous.”

So it is autism? Thank you for that admittance :o)

“Fragile X and Rhettâ€™s may be lumped in with autism but we know them as distinguishable from mercury poisoning. It would be important to learn if these 19th century people were so afflicted or not.”

Rhett’s is a form of autism John.

Oh and hey – about all those people who might have been hat makers etc….who said this John:

“I view any talk of mercury in the air as a problem as utter nonsense. Itâ€™s just propaganda to deflect blame from pharma and I donâ€™t buy one word of it.”

So you believe talk of mercury that doesn’t originate from ‘pharma’ as utter nonsense. Well, OK, we’ll play by your rules then….

Just to reiterate. These kids from the 1880’s, diagnosed by autism specialists, from case studies from a renowned London Hospital have symptoms that meet the DSM diagnostic criteria. You can call it mercury if you like (except that you view that as ‘utter nonsense’ as they can’t have been vaccinated with thiomersal) or you can call it genetic, or Ronald McDonald. I don’t care. They existed. In 1880. They were autistic.

” The cause may not be important to you but it is to those of us who want to help our kids.”

Forget the appeals to emotion Johnny. We can do that later as I said. Now, stop twisting and wriggling.

1) You view talk of autism from any other source of mercury than vaccines as ‘utter nonsense’.
2) Kids from 1880, before thiomersal was added to vaccines meet the DSM diagnostic criteria.

Reconcile those two positions John.
M
April 13th, 2006
15:43:37

I’ve been interested in Kanner re the Nazi extermination programme. Is it possible that he claimed that there had been nothing like these kids before to save them from the T4 programme? I’ve no idea where he sits politically, but in terms of time and place it’s certainly something he’d have to deal with.

If some autism is ‘English inbreeding’ why doesn’t it happen to the inbred Amish?
John Best
April 13th, 2006
15:47:18

Kevin;
How convenient of you to cut out part of my exchange with Tim. Of course, the point was that there was no autism epidemic when the country was largely heated by coal and a lot more mercury was floating around. That just makes the point that the mercury injected via vaccines is much more dangerous that the miniscule ammount that could find its’ way into a body through the air.
If kids from 1880 meet the criteria, it’s important to find out why. You don’t claim Mad Hatter’s Disease did not exist. Did Kanner know about these kids? If they were exposed to mercury and Kanner knew it, he might have made the connection. We might have had thimerosal out of vaccines back in the 40’s and avoided this whole epidemic.
It looks like you’re the one wos wriggling when you won’t address the cause of the autism. Any scientist would want to know that. What if the 1880 kids got kicked in the head by horses causing brain damage. Wouldn’t that be an important differentiation?
century
April 13th, 2006
15:48:25

Kev wrote,

“Except that the anecdotal evidence of my own family and the scientific evidence of Shattock et al demonstrates that you are incorrect. People matching the DSM criteria were in existence in the 1880â€™s”

Paul Shattock is not the author – he is the author’s thesis advisor.

Here is an except from the article:

**”It is always difficult to pass judgement on medical conditions affecting individuals one has not examined in person, no matter how detailed the records about the patient may be, and regardless of oneâ€™s own scope of knowledge. Just as other researchers have attributed autistic traits to historical figures ranging from Victor of Aveyron (Wing, 1976) to Albert Einstein (Katz, 2000), there is a strong case for correlation between the symptoms exhibited by Ralph, George, and Ida and modern diagnostic criteria for autism. In the absence of further information, however, alternative explanations are always possible.”**

Another part states:

**”He had also caught measles recently, recovering just 4 weeks before admission. Although it is not explicitly stated, it is possible that his symptoms worsened following this bout with measles, causing his parents to make the costly journey to London for medical treatment. As Georgeâ€™s symptoms had been evident for a long time, it is reasonable to expect that something triggered his admission at this time.”**

(www.richardgwhite.com)

One needs to exercise care when trying to use old documents/cases to prove or disprove a point.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
15:56:54

“How convenient of you to cut out part of my exchange with Tim. Of course, the point was that there was no autism epidemic when the country was largely heated by coal and a lot more mercury was floating around. That just makes the point that the mercury injected via vaccines is much more dangerous that the miniscule ammount that could find itsâ€™ way into a body through the air.”

It may or may not well do John. However, you copntinue to evade the point. The point I’m repeatedly making is that you claim autism did not exist before 1931. I’m saying to you that, whatever the cause, it did. We can talk about cause another time. All we’re talking about now is…when was autism first established? So far we’re back to 1880.

“It looks like youâ€™re the one wos wriggling when you wonâ€™t address the cause of the autism.”

As I’ve said to you at least four times….we can discuss causation another time. What we’re addressing now is your statement that autism did not exist before 1931.

“What if the 1880 kids got kicked in the head by horses causing brain damage. Wouldnâ€™t that be an important differentiation?”

Er, no. It would be brain damage.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
16:00:56

“Paul Shattock is not the author â€“ he is the authorâ€™s thesis advisor.”

The report is titled:

“Autistic Disorder in Nineteenth-century London: Three Case Reports. Waltz and Shattock Autism.2004”

Thats good enough for me.

“One needs to exercise care when trying to use old documents/cases to prove or disprove a point.”

Your quotes demonstrate…what?

“there is a strong case for correlation between the symptoms exhibited by Ralph, George, and Ida and modern diagnostic criteria for autism. In the absence of further information, however, alternative explanations are always possible”

Couple that with their abstract that:

“The articleâ€¦...provid[es] information about children with autism before the condition was formally named in 1943.”

and they seem pretty convinced and pretty convincing to me.
century
April 13th, 2006
16:04:52

If one assumes that autism had been described by physicians since Victorian times, or earlier, (although the term autism not used), why then, when Kanner and Asperger delivered their first papers documenting autism as a new phenomenom did other physicians not say, “Steady on chaps, this is not new – go and look at the work of X,Y and Z written in 1900, 1920 and 1930”?

Maybe there is work from earlier in the 20th century and I’ve missed it. I don’t know – but it’s possible.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
16:20:19

Kev;
I’ll borrow from Lenny and use the autism apples and autism oranges. Autism MP did not exist before 1931. I’ll grant that symptoms similar to autism MP may have existed but this was not Kanner’s autism. For all you know, all of those people MAY have been kicked in the head by horses. You didn’t deny that your relatives were feces smearing drug adicts with gut problems so I’ll assume that was the case. We need to know more Kevin, than just your say so that they were autistic. Describe the alleged autism and give us some background on them.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
16:21:30

“If one assumes that autism had been described by physicians since Victorian times, or earlier, (although the term autism not used), why then, when Kanner and Asperger delivered their first papers documenting autism as a new phenomenom did other physicians not say, â€œSteady on chaps, this is not new â€“ go and look at the work of X,Y and Z written in 1900, 1920 and 1930â€?”

Well, in those days there was no email, pubmed etc. Asperger started diagnosing in a country the US/UK were at war with. Communication was not good. Kanner lived in a different country – in a different continent to both Landon Down and Traffert’s Doc. Indeed, Treffert says that savant ability was also recognised in 1914 (Tredgold, AF: Mental Deficiency. New York, William Wood,1914)

Take the example of the rodent species I pointed out to John upthread. Just because something doesn’t appear to be documented, or because the records weren’t available to study that doesn’t mean the condition/rodent doesn’t exist. It simply means no ones talking about it. Medscape make the same link.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
16:22:55

Kev;
If the autism is the same now as it was in 1880, how come we don’t have posthumous descriptions for 1 in 166 people from 1880?
Kev
April 13th, 2006
16:24:02

“... but this was not Kannerâ€™s autism.”

“We need to know more Kevin, than just your say so that they were autistic. Describe the alleged autism and give us some background on them.”

John, I’m going to spell it out nice and slow…...this is not my ‘say so’. This is peer reviewed science. Two autism specialists examined case histories and concluded that they discussed people who met the criteria for DSM diagnosis, thus establishing them as autistic.

Seriously – what don’t you get about that?
Kev
April 13th, 2006
16:25:03

“If the autism is the same now as it was in 1880, how come we donâ€™t have posthumous descriptions for 1 in 166 people from 1880?”

I’ll be happy to discuss this with you later also. Right now we’re talking about when autism started – or at least, was first documented.
Dad Of Cameron
April 13th, 2006
16:26:25

M said: “If some autism is â€˜English inbreedingâ€™ why doesnâ€™t it happen to the inbred Amish?”

It does. Source

Although in the full text you’ll learn that these Amish kids have autism that is secondary to a seizure disorder, they are most defnitely autistic by DSM-IV criteria.
Brett
April 13th, 2006
16:53:21

At least we all agree that there is such a thing as autism. From clone3g’s comment, I checked up on what the Scientologists think about autism (remmber Tom Cruise’s rant against psychiatry?). Found this interesting story at Hollywood, Interrupted.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
16:53:30

Any descriptions of mercury poisoning and related neurological damage before 1940?

I’m aware of a few case reports of psychosis brought on by neurosyphilis which was treated with arsenic and mercury before the advent of antibiotics, but no one described mercury poisoning as being similar to autism, as near as I can tell.
M
April 13th, 2006
17:11:23

In the UK we don’t have anything for 1 in 166 people in 1880, beyond census data. You’re pre-NHS, pre-Llloyd George, and in an era where certain autistic traits (such as being withdrawn and non-communicative) would be accepted, and others hidden as being part of madness. We can look at well recorded indivuduals and make an intelligent guess at a diagnosis, but beyond that we’re in the dark. To take a non-autism example; we know enough about Alfred the Great to suggest that he suffered from Crohn’s Disease, but we don’t even know the names of some of his family. To say that simply because we know one individual we should be able to draw a prevalence shows a lack of knowledge of historical data.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 13th, 2006
17:33:14

Kev: “John, Iâ€™m going to spell it out nice and slowâ€¦...this is not my â€˜say soâ€™. This is peer reviewed science.”

Waste of time, John. Total waste of time… we all know that JBJr doesn’t like peer-reviewed science, because it demonstrates that he is an imbecile. He likes anecdotal evidence because it cannot be challenged in the same way that peer-reviewed science can (a ploy which leaves him able to convince himself that he is right, despite the facts of the matter). He despises peer-reviewed science because it is able to demonstrate ways of working which are quack-ish as being quack-ish (such as chelation for autism, and so on) and can demonstrate that much of his belief system is inaccurate (because, eg, physical punishment and teaching his child to fight are two of a not-very-long list of factors with can contribute to delinquency in children rather than teaching the child to “not be a pussy”).

JBJr despises peer-reviewed science also because it shows the lie of the alarmist “Act Now!” exhortations of the quacks in whom his belief is more powerful and fierce than his belief in his god.

He truly is a man out of touch with the real world and, one day, that lack of reality testing ability will come looking for him and bite his arse big time.

I’m looking forward to reading the forensic reports on that one.
anonimouse
April 13th, 2006
17:42:04

The scorecard so far:

Kevin’s basically cornered John on #1, and by proxy forced to John to admit that #2 isn’t really true. (once John went to L. Schafer’s apples-to-oranges card)

#3 is pretty laughable and easily refuted by a simple PubMed search. Studies that refute #8 are also available as well and have been posted in this thread.

#5 and #11 don’t concern me – if Best wants to be a bigot in other facets of life, that’s his prerogative. Doesn’t make his position on autism and mercury any more or less correct.

#6, #9 and #10 are personally troubling, but again, they don’t make Best’s position any more or less correct.

As to #4…John Best is a representative of Generation Rescue as long as he associates themselves with that organization. While it would behoove them to have far slicker spokespeople than Best and the “bull in a china shop” J.B. Handley, I am not at all surprised that Handley would take a liking to Mr. Fore Sam. Best is Handley’s heavy – the guy who makes the visceral threats while Handley goes to the lawyers and economic might card.
anonimouse
April 13th, 2006
17:43:36

To conclude – the only thing that is legitimately debatable in all of the top-level comments is #7. Reasonable people disagree on the existence of an autism epidemic. However, few people believe that thimerosal in vaccines is its one and only cause.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
18:19:24

Kevin;
Autism started in 1931. That’s what Kanner named in 1943. The other stuff is not autism. It’s fragile X, Rhett’s and Asperger’s but not autism or MP. That’s why you need to find the cause. The symptoms are similar but autism is that which was named by Kanner in 1943 as never having been seen and we now know that that autism is MP. That’s what makes those terms synonymous. Do you understand that or not? Ergo, if you can find me a case of autism from 206 AD and find that it was caused by mercury, then you can state that there was autism before 1931. If you can’t determine the cause, you can’t give it the correct name.
Kev
April 13th, 2006
18:26:36

“Autism started in 1931. Thatâ€™s what Kanner named in 1943. The other stuff is not autism. “

So you’re saying that the DSM criteria is useless for diagnosing autism? How was your child diagnosed John?

“The symptoms are similar but autism is that which was named by Kanner in 1943 as never having been seen”

No John, Kanner said never been recorded – new to science, not new to human experience. Just like our rodent friend upthread.

“and we now know that that autism is MP”

We can come on to that later. We’re still talking about when autism existed for now – irrespective of cause.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
18:31:25

Andrews;
Are we talking about science by the Geiers that was peer reviewed and helps children or are we talking about science paid for by drug companies that harms children? Was the safety study on thimerosal from 1929 peer reviewed? Do parents who have cured their kids need some drug company employee to come to their house and announce to the world that their kid is cured after his colleagues mull it over? Here’s where you need something you lack. It’s called common sense.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
18:38:05

John, can you prove autism didn’t exist before Kanner named it? The word autistic was used before Kanner but not in the way we use it today. Kanner coined the term to describe something that fell into other categories prior to his work. So what? Language evolves even if you haven’t.

You tried to make the same argument for the absence of autism in China before 1999 and you were proven wrong.

I’ll say it again; The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
18:43:08

Are we talking about science by the Geiers that was peer reviewed and helps children or are we talking about science paid for by drug companies that harms children?

Are we talking about the Geiers and their non-scientific patent applied for use of a dangerous pharmaceutical product that will surely harm children?
John Best
April 13th, 2006
18:45:13

Kev;
I know it’s difficult for you to fight this losing battle. It’s obvious you don’t understand the difference between MP, Rhett’s, fragile X and kicks to the head from horses. That’s why you would not make a good diagnostician. Without making the differentiation, you would never be able to tell anyone how to cure the condition. MP is curable while fragile X, Rhett’s and horse kicks to the head are not. Am I getting any closer to making you understand? MP is autism. The other stuff is other stuff. Asperger’s is other stuff. Weirdness is other stuff. MP was invented by Lilly in 1931. Rare instances of mercury poisoning did exist, as in Mad Hatter’s but as rare as other instances of MP were, we can safely say that for all intents and purposes, MP or autism began when doctors started shooting mercury into people. So, to say that MP existed before 1931, you need to show that the person so afflicted was exposed to mercury. You have not done that which voids your position.
Bartholomew Cubbins
April 13th, 2006
18:50:04

“Autism started in 1931.” blah blah blah
And the wheel turns round and round. Learning will not happen here because learning is not desired. You’re all talking to someone who doesn’t understand that which he espouses – APO is a good example (johnny there’s a difference between a typo and just not knowing what the hell you’re talking about).

Blathering off talking points from GR’s website is what you’re gonna get. There will be no “oh, I suppose you could be right about that one, but what about this one” kind of give-and-take. In order for that to happen there would have to be some sort of cognitive processing taking place.

Brett- besides the hottie banner ad, what was I supposed to see? I’ll be experimenting with the Opera zoom feature, be back in a while.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
18:53:35

MP or autism began when doctors started shooting mercury into people

Sorry John, doctors were prescribing mercury long before Lily formulated thimerosal. It was given in much higher doses and the neurological effects were well known and monitored. Do you understand? It wasn’t used to preserve medicine, IT WAS MEDICINE!

So you can argue that there is something unique about the structure of thimerosal or route of exposure but mercury poisoning always looked pretty much like mercury poisoning, not autism.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
18:58:03

Dude, Hottie?
century
April 13th, 2006
19:02:33

Kev wrote,

“Well, in those days there was no email, pubmed etc. Asperger started diagnosing in a country the US/UK were at war with. Communication was not good. Kanner lived in a different country â€“ in a different continent to both Landon Down and Traffertâ€™s Doc”

Are you really saying that an American physician publishing in the USA in 1943 would not be read by other American physicians?
Also, bear in mind that European scientists from approx 1500 AD (and before) kept in close contact with each other to share theories, views and ideas – notwithstanding the fact that they did not have Pubmed, email etc.
Bartholomew Cubbins
April 13th, 2006
19:25:36

“APO” should read “APO (insert favorite even number)”

textile is not my friend – baffles me to be honest
John Best
April 13th, 2006
19:26:38

Clone;
The doctors were not prescribing mercury at the age of three hours in doses considered safe for 400 pound adults. I’m not sure of the date but is 1906 accurate for the first Alzheimer’s diagnosis? Would that be in line with doctor induced mercury poisoning?
John Best
April 13th, 2006
19:35:19

While I have the opportunity, I might as well clarify Kev’s point # 11. I have made comments about Muslim terrorists. I have never said all Muslims are terrorists or all terrorists are Muslims. I believe I did liken Neurodiversity to Muslim terrorists by way of harming children by taking sides with the drug companies. I hope I did not offend decent Muslims who are not terrorists. I also hope I did not offend any terrorists who are not Muslims.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
19:41:02

Point #9. I disagree with my wife more often than I disagree with Kathleen Seidel. I do not horsewhip my wife because my wife does not write venomous attacks on decent scientists who are trying to help children. If my wife was writing such harmful junk, I woul;d contact DSS and have her declared an unfit parent, divorce her and take sole custody of my kids. Since I’m not married to Seidel, I can only suggest a good horsewhipping to bring her to her senses. I do not advocate horsewhipping other women who do not write junk that effectively harms poisoned children.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
19:42:35

Best: The doctors were not prescribing mercury at the age of three hours in doses considered safe for 400 pound adults.

Right, this is a reference to HepB. So there shouldn’t be any autism before HepB was introduced?

Iâ€™m not sure of the date but is 1906 accurate for the first Alzheimerâ€™s diagnosis? Would that be in line with doctor induced mercury poisoning?

Dr. Alois Alzheimer first decribed brain pathology and disease now known as Alzheimer’s in a patient that developed symptoms at least five years earlier. So Alzheimer’s Disease existed before it was called Alzheimer’s.

Mercury was used in medicine long before 1906. Abraham Lincoln took mercury based medicine but it made him cranky.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
19:46:11

Point #10. After writing an article that was published in a newspaper, I received a bunch of phone calls at home. Some were negative and I think I only had to tell one idiot to go to hell. Loopy Lisa should not put her name in public if she can’t stand the criticism. I never called her. Others did and I agree with them. She deserved whatever calls she got.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
19:50:23

Loopy Lisa should not put her name in public if she canâ€™t stand the criticism. I never called her. Others did and I agree with them. She deserved whatever calls she got.

So any person with a published phone number deserves threatening phone calls? Try calling the White House John, the number is in the book.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
19:56:38

Clone;
We already know a new condition was started in 1931 called autism. Was something worse started in 1991 with HepB by giving mercury to kids so young? It might be interesting to compare symptoms with autistic kids who had HepB and older ones who missed it.
Some say Lincoln was gay. Maybe that was caused by the mercury.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
19:58:17

Clone;
If Bush took all those phone calls, he’d never have time for golf.
clone3g
April 13th, 2006
19:59:20

Some say Lincoln was gay. Maybe that was caused by the mercury.

Did you really just say that?
John Best
April 13th, 2006
20:11:31

Clone;
Yup, it’s normal for men to be turned on by women and vice versa. Who knows what happens to people to make them get turned on by their own sex. All I know is it isn’t normal.
Michael Ralston
April 13th, 2006
20:41:34

We already know a new condition was started in 1931 called autism.

More accurately, we already know you like to pretend that a new condition was started in 1931.

And it wasn’t called autism until 1943, remember? Gotta keep your lies consistant with the undeniable reality.

If autism existed before Kanner named it, then maybe it existed for a LONGER TIME before Kanner named it.

Keep that in mind.
M
April 13th, 2006
21:17:06

“Some say Lincoln was gay. Maybe that was caused by the mercury.” I need a version of that as a comment sig. Must also trace mercury input that made Alexander the Great and Oscar Wilde gay. Because, dude, if that’s what mercury does to you then bring it on.

Back to the plot. Historical disease and mortality is a particular interest of mine, so I’ve got some of my books out. The first book linking occupations to particular illnesses appeard in 1700 (in English in 1705); this led to the idenfication of symptoms associated with hatters. The contemporary name was ‘Hatter’s Shakes’, which does not call to mind autism.

‘Saracen Ointment’, containing mainly mercury was used as a treatment for both leprosy and syphillis from the Crusades; since these were wildly misdiagnosed it was probably used for a lot of skin conditions. It’s quite possible therefore that ‘cradle cap’ and eczema were treated with mercury ointments. The real jump came post Paracelsus (early 16th century); his followers were fans of ‘chemical’ rather than ‘natural’ medicine, and used mercury much more than previously (medieval medicine got more of its pharmaceuticals from plants). So if autism is mercury poisoining, you should see a big jump in the Elizabethan/Stewart aristocracy. At this distance any sort of diagnosis is impossible; but the pre-Paracelsus Henry VI shows far more ‘autistic’ characteristics than, for example James VI/I.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
21:18:09

Mike;
The kids were 10 to 12 years old so the autism began when they were shot up with mercury in 1931 and later. Kanner was an expert in the field and would have known of it if it had existed. Nobody else had found it because it did not exist.
Of those first 11 kids, there were 8 boys and 3 girls, pretty close to the 4 to 1 ratio we have today that we know is caused by testosterone making the mercury more potent. Interesting, isn’t it?
Anne
April 13th, 2006
21:22:03

All Kanner did was reclassify it as a separate disorder.

As I read John Best, Jr., his position is that kids who are diagnosed with “autism” today are in fact mercury poisoned, and that you can go down to the health food store and buy Alpha Lipoic Acid for $30, and that is the cure. End of story.

This is what he says. I reserve judgment on whether it is actually what he believes.
anonimouse
April 13th, 2006
21:26:38

Kev,

All of J. Best’s diatribes in one place.

It’s an embarassment of riches, I tell you. Now instead of pointing the media to a whole bunch of links, you can just send them to this one thread. ;-)
John Best
April 13th, 2006
21:33:39

Anne;
You misquoted me. ALA is only about $5 a bottle and lasts some months. ALA and all the other stuff only runs about $30 per month. One should rely on Andy Cutler for the proper dosage of these things.
anonimouse
April 13th, 2006
21:38:05

Of those first 11 kids, there were 8 boys and 3 girls, pretty close to the 4 to 1 ratio we have today that we know is caused by testosterone making the mercury more potent. Interesting, isnâ€™t it?

It would be to folks like you. After all, how many kids did Wakefield have in his study? 12, was it? I guess studying tens of thousands of kids is way less pervasive than studying a dozen.

I think I get it now. John Best, Jr. is applying homeopathic research techniques – the fewer subjects you study, the more potent the research is.
Kassiane
April 13th, 2006
21:38:37

Wow. JBJr, the great diagnostician snorts seems to think I’m not autistic! I mean, I have the Rett gene and all…

Just tell any of my doctors that I’m not autistic. They’ll laugh in your face. Hard. Just tell me when you do it so I can watch, I need the entertainment.

On another note, heavy metal poisoning hasn’t changed. It’s miserable. It isn’t autism.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 13th, 2006
21:55:43

JBJr: “Hereâ€™s where you need something you lack. Itâ€™s called common sense.”

You are so hopeless, aren’t you?!
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 13th, 2006
21:56:49

Mouse: “I think I get it now. John Best, Jr. is applying homeopathic research techniques â€“ the fewer subjects you study, the more potent the research is.”

Ah… I see now…. yes… research that is about as useful as homeopathic stuff too!
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 13th, 2006
21:58:59

clone3g; “Try calling the White House John, the number is in the book.”

He daren’t… he’s too chicken for that!
John Best
April 13th, 2006
22:06:19

Kasiane;
Do you have Rhett’s and MP or just Rhett’s?
Jonathan Semetko
April 13th, 2006
22:13:19

anonimouse wrote “I think I get it now. John Best, Jr. is applying homeopathic research techniques â€“ the fewer subjects you study, the more potent the research is.”

Yes, especially when those kids were not randomly selected in the first place. Hello, Texas Sharpshooters…..
John Best
April 13th, 2006
22:19:48

Andrews;
I’ve called the White House. Nixon wouldn’t answer. Neither would Bush.
I make a comment that it’s interesting that the numbers of boys to girls happoened to be in line with today’s numbers and you people want to turn it into a study. Typical neurodiverse reasoning. Calling me hopeless when you’re the one with no common sense doesn’t enhance your position Dave. It just shows that you have to resort to name calling since you’re fighting a losing battle (I’m not referring to your battle with sanity). Suggesting kids are not being cured just because a study hasn’t been done to confirm is not a poor reflection on the sane parents who help their kids. It does however, reflect poorly on the CDC and the Medical profession who are not doing those studies. Because the people who caused the epidemic are trying to cover it up, our only source for good information is from those intelligent and sane parents who have realized they are being lied to and are helping their kids climb out of the abyss of autism. It may be too late for you Dave but I’ll send you a bottle of ALA and instructions on how to use it if you’d like to join those of us who do not live with a diminished capacity. Who knows, your IQ may even creep up a few points.
M
April 13th, 2006
22:35:13

JB - While I am not Dave I do take my Omega3s – and I’m not sure about your dosage, because my local dietician who specialises in autism suggests a very high dose. I think that the equivalent of $5 worth would last you about 3 days on his doseage! I still see that your reasoning is full of holes. I’m not seeing the hordes of autistic Stewart aristocrats :)
Ms Clark
April 13th, 2006
22:40:26

Rett, John, Rett. Kasianne doesn’t have Rhett it’s Rett, prefered to Rett’s as I understand it.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
22:42:42

Sorry Ms Clark. I’ll try to be a better speller.
anonimouse
April 13th, 2006
22:51:14

John,

I am absolutely stunned that the President of the United States wouldn’t be jumping all over themselves to take a phone call from you. Although I’m confused as to why you’d be calling Richard Nixon – either you’ve had long-standing animosity towards the government or you still think he’s alive.

I also enjoy your diatribe about how the CDC and medical profession have to “do these studies”. Let me say this one more time – THEY ARE NOT THE ONES USING THESE TREATMENTS. The buren of proof needs to be one the chelationists who use DMPS or EDTA to show that their treatment protocol actually works. They can apply for grants from the NIH to do the kind of research necessary. Or they can do like Dr. Adams from Arizona State and put together their own clinical trial.

However, I do have one major quibble. At no point in your postings should you ever equate yourself with both intelligent and sane. I think it’s 50-50 that one of those adjectives apply to you.
Kassiane
April 13th, 2006
22:53:12

Say it with me now: “There is no H in Rett”. Googling with an H in there won’t give you any information worth having. PubMed doesn’t recognize it at all.

Autism does not equal mercury poisoning. sighs. Emedicine did a really good article on mercury poisoning. None of the symptoms are like autism. Nowhere close. But people who don’t trust doctors aren’t going to look at REAL sites for their medical information. It’s better to make it up as they go along.

Ah the joy of arguing with monkeys…or perhaps parrots?
John Best
April 13th, 2006
23:03:20

I think I called Nixon in 1972 when he froze wages but allowed universities to keep raising tuitions.
Mouse;
It would seem that you are not intelligent enough to know that a generation or 2 or 3 of kids have been poisoned. A sane and intelligent person who learns this removes the poison from his children by whatever means are available. An insane person would side with criminals who want to continue to poison children. An unintelligent person would believe the lies told by said criminals. Which category do you put yourself in, Mouse?
anonimouse
April 13th, 2006
23:25:58

Ah, Mr. Best. Your logic chain breaks.

First, you must prove that children have actually been poisoned. That would mean doing large-scale tests that show that these “children in the abyss” really have some kind of mercury excretion abnormality or are otherwise overburdened with heavy metals. Your side can’t even come up with a consistent standard as to what constitutes mercury poisoning. Is it too much mercury in a urine test? Too little?

If you can’t even prove THAT simple fact with any degree of certainty, then the rest of your claims are irrelevant.

But let’s say that it really is true, and autistics have a higher mercury burden. The next question to ask would be whether those children exhibit signs of mercury poisoning. They exhibit some of the non-specific symptoms for sure, but the tell-tale signs of MP are not often present, if at all.

And EVEN IF you can illustrate the autistics have problems excreting mercury, you still have to prove two more things – that it’s the mercury causing their autistic behaviors and that removing said mercury makes any sort of difference. There’s no clinical basis to believe that removing the mercury will improve neurological function. It may resolve some of the secondary symptoms, but chelating mercury isn’t going to reverse the damage done to the brain.

Seeing as you haven’t even gotten to step #1 yet, claiming that steps 2-4 are complete and in the books is ludicrous.

In all seriousness, if mercury is a cause of autism, my guess is that it would be through pre-natal exposure, most likely in the first trimester during critical periods of brain development. It is plausible that environmental factors during this period play a role in autism.

But it sure as heck isn’t happening when the child is a year old, and chelating the child when they’re five or six isn’t going to mean a damn thing. Any improvement that happens during that time period is almost undoubtedly related to other therapies.
Dad Of Cameron
April 13th, 2006
23:26:58

“Or they can do like Dr. Adams from Arizona State and put together their own clinical trial.”

Which ASU’s IRB REJECTED (after previously allowing the prior Bradstreet, Geier, Adams et al. DMSA study).
John Best
April 13th, 2006
23:39:22

Kasiane;
You didn’t answer my question. That says you aren’t arguing, period. You’re dodging, a distinct neurodiverse quality. I’m not making any comments about monkeys on this blog. Sallie Bernard et al did a nice study on mercury poisoning. If you don’t have those symptoms, you must just have Rett’s. I hope that helps and I hope they find a cure for you.
anonimouse
April 13th, 2006
23:41:56

DofC,

I knew that. The point I was making was that even people on Best’s side feel that doing some kind of clinical trial is necessary. Whether the trial is poorly designed and inappropriate is something for scientists to debate, but it’s at least better than just shouting from the rooftops “chelation workz c my kid is awesum now”.
John Best
April 13th, 2006
23:53:11

Mouse;
You can also refer to Sallie Bernard. It’s common knowledge that the kids were poisoned with mercury. It’s just a question of which kids could tolerate it. It looks like 5 out of 6 tolerate it. The rest are somehow affected.
Deth taught us that it was impaired methylation that causes autism, not simply neuron damage. Neubrander showed us that over 90% improve with Methyl B-12 which proved Deth wrong. Deth said only 80% would improve.
I saw my son stop dragging his leg when he walked after chelation so that told me the mercury did not cause permanent damage and that was at age 8. Some of the damage might not be fixed but HBOT is proving to be helpful for some. I’m not well-versed on that to say more. These things are certainly worth a shot since doing nothing isn’t going to help these kids. I know you folks like to play up the two deaths caused by malpractice. I’m not concerned with that myself since I don’t rely on doctors to give my kid the drugs.
I’ve said it before but here’s your choice. You can wait for the medical profession to help you while your kid rots or you can keep up with the science yourself and help your kid now before he winds up like poor David Andrews and starts sending pictures of his groin to people.
Ruth
April 14th, 2006
00:05:34

Pulled out my 1906 Materia medica. Under syphilis, preferred treatment is bichoride of mercury, by intramuscular injection. So doctors have been injecting mercury salts into adults since at least 1906. For kids with dysentery, 3 mg Calomel every half hour. Mercury was a common treatment. People probably had higher levels of Hg from medical treatment 100 years ago than the trace found in vaccines.

Uta Firths book on autism mentions a disciple of St. Francis who showed many autistic traits. He was valued as being holy and above material thoughts.
anonimouse
April 14th, 2006
00:18:29

John,

Oooh. I can refer to Sallie Bernard…the marketing expert for knowledge of mercury poisoning in children. Sign me up for that lecture.

Deth’s work says NOTHING about autism. It barely says anything about methylation.

Neubrander hasn’t published his work in a peer-reviewed journal and hasn’t had his finding corroborated by ANYONE. That’s just his claim, similar to Buttar’s claims, Cave’s claims, Wakefield’s claims, etc, etc.

I saw my son stop dragging his leg when he walked after chelation so that told me the mercury did not cause permanent damage and that was at age 8.

OMG…your son stopped dragging his leg when he walked so it MUST BE THE CHELATION! Here’s an alternative explanation, John. Your son stopped dragging his leg because, well, he developed to the point where he stopped doing it. You have this bizarre notion that kids with autism don’t get better on their own and can’t be helped without expensive biomedical treatments.
John Best
April 14th, 2006
01:03:09

Mouse;
$30 a month is only expensive to trailer dwelling coo-coos.
Of course, the standard call for studies instead of blatantly calling parents liars is a good response. Reread Deth. Bernard’s marketing expertise has nothing to do with her mercury poisoning expertise.
clone3g
April 14th, 2006
01:17:23

John Best: Reread Deth

Save us the trouble John. Tell us what it says about autism or methylation for that matter.
Kassiane
April 14th, 2006
02:31:18

I have the Rett mutation, manifesting as autism and a few other things that are none of your damn business.

That’s right. Phenotypically it’s autism. Genetically it’s Rett. My dad DOESN’T have the mutation-men with it don’t grow up to be in their 50s and well thought of engineers-and he’s autistic too. Don’t even try to argue this one with me unless you’re prepared to argue the genetics. My paternal grandmother is also autistic. Since you’re the expert on everyone and everything, their lack-of-vaccination status is none of your damn business either.

New Theory: Secretly JBJr hates GR and all those folks. That’s why he spends oodles of time online making them look bad.
David H
April 14th, 2006
05:06:02

I think the more interesting debate is not whether autism existed prior to 1931 but whether or not it was extremely rare. Century makes some good points that I agree with. It’s hard to imagine scientists not communicating in the first quarter of the 20th century. Wasn’t Kanner among the top in his field during his time? The fact that he had never seen anything like autism before and that no one else in the field contacted Kanner after reading his articles to state that it wasn’t a new condition is very telling. I would never say it means that autism didn’t exist prior to Kanner diagnosing it but it certainly makes a strong argument that autism was extremely rare.
Dad Of Cameron
April 14th, 2006
05:32:24

It makes a strong an uncontested argument that diagnosis was rare or not defined, depending how far back you go in time (see Bleuler and Schizophrenia), it says absolutely nothing about prevalence whatsoever. Does lack of mention about neutrinos prior to Fermi and Pauli (about the same time as Kanner) make a strong argument that neutrinos were extremely rare prior to that?
Kev
April 14th, 2006
05:39:05

“Am I getting any closer to making you understand? MP is autism. The other stuff is other stuff. Aspergerâ€™s is other stuff. Weirdness is other stuff.”

“So, to say that MP existed before 1931, you need to show that the person so afflicted was exposed to mercury. You have not done that which voids your position.”

I see. So really, your argument that Eli Lilly invented autism in 1931 is supported by your belief that all autism is mercury poisoning, for which your proof is that Eli Lilly invented autism in 1931?

I think, having demonstrated your total, unflinching idiocy on this point we can move on.
Kev
April 14th, 2006
05:44:34

“Are you really saying that an American physician publishing in the USA in 1943 would not be read by other American physicians?”

Um, no I’m not. I’m saying that the records from the 1880’s were probably not widely available.

“Also, bear in mind that European scientists from approx 1500 AD (and before) kept in close contact with each other to share theories, views and ideas â€“ notwithstanding the fact that they did not have Pubmed, email etc.”

And how long an average did it take for letters to get passed from continent to continent? Few hours? Days? Weeks? No. Months.

In the 16th Century in the UK, religion and consequently what was ‘safe’ to assign to science and study openly switched around with the death and coronation of a monarch. Your view is far too simplistic.
Kev
April 14th, 2006
05:46:04

“I think the more interesting debate is not whether autism existed prior to 1931 but whether or not it was extremely rare. “

That would be an interesting debate David but this is a thread for John Best, Generation Rescue Rescue Angel, to wallow in his ignorance.
Kev
April 14th, 2006
06:08:55

OK all, we’ve established that John only allows unsubstantiated anecdotes to carry weight when he’s the one making them. We’ve also established John can only reason in circles. Lets move on. I think we can safely skip point two.

John says autism did not exist in China until Jan 1st 1999.

On Prometheus’ blog, John claimed that :

“Do you suppose the people in China are happy going from zero autism in 1999 to 5 million cases now thanks to our thimerosal laced vaccines?”

Infantile autism study in Hong Kong 1998

Teaching chinese autistic children in Hong Kong 1997

Assessing autistic children 1993

Fragile X positivity in Chinese children with autistic spectrum disorder. 1992

A follow-up study of infantile autism in Hong Kong. 1990

Rett syndrome in China: report of 9 patients. 1988

Infantile autism in China. 1987

John?
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 14th, 2006
06:17:15

JBJr: ” It may be too late for you Dave but Iâ€™ll send you a bottle of ALA and instructions on how to use it if youâ€™d like to join those of us who do not live with a diminished capacity.”

I think I might add practising medicine without a licence to the litany of charges I’m having prepared against you, Mr Best.
Ms Clark
April 14th, 2006
07:15:59

I don’t have any corroborating evidence, so you’ll have to balance this on my credibility. In early 2001 or late 2000… when the MIND institute was drumming up support for itself, Dr. Randi Hagerman gave a presentation at the Davis High School library to promote the MIND insitute. At that meeting I met a Chinese woman with a daughter about 10 years old. Since I was “into” Mandarin at the time I went out of my way to try to talk to Chinese people. Her daughter was autistic. The woman was from Mainland China and her husband was also, he worked at UC Berkeley. This girl was born in China. The family had not been here that long, maybe 3 or 4 years. It’s unlikely that the family still lives here, the visiting scholars aren’t usually able to stay in one place too long. Anyway, I met a Chinese autistic girl born around 1990.

A few years later I met an Egyptian family that had an autistic son, he was born in Egypt and came here at about age 3, he had twin little brothers also born in Egypt. When I met them the autistic boy was close to 4.—-

In the Middle Ages, there was some sharing of medical information, but not everything WE think is interesting or important was described. For instance there are plagues that went through areas where ancient “physicians” lived and recorded their observations. But since they thought of things in mostly superstitious terms, they looked for the symptoms that were crucial to their system of thinking… the lungs did this, the lungs were like that… if the system considered the lungs to be key, then the doctor didn’t bother to record what was going on on the skin (so it’s possible that an epidemic was measles, but that the existence of the thing WE think is the most crucial to discuss – the spots, weren’t recorded.

Just like allopaths don’t record how a patient’s Qi is likely to be flowing…”qi” is irrelevant. A traditional Chinese physician wants to know what you’ve been eating and will judge it according to whether it is too yin or too yang (hot, cold, wet, dry, male, female…)

Sooo, in 1378 if physicians are looking right at an Asperger’s or PDD,nos kid who is staring or pacing or slow to answer or… the reaction might be “so what?” If the kid is echolaling, maybe he’s referred to a priest for an exorcism (hey, Bradstreet did the same thing and that was just a few years ago) or maybe it’s considered a very cool thing…. It’s not necessarily recorded by doctors who are keen on disussing the 4 humors—yellow and black bile, blood and phlegm.

The 1 in 166 number is mostly composed of kids who are not easy to spot as “classic autistics” I know the mercury parents work really hard to conceal this fact, but it’s true.

Autism is the most heritable of all mental/developmental disorders… that means “it tends to run in families”.

I guess we need to send out an investigative team to look into the ASD status of John and his wife and their parents and grand-parents. I wonder if we could talk to John’s mother and find out how old he was when he started to talk and if he spun coins and plates or if she dropped him on his head or if he was kicked in the head by a horse at any point… you know he hangs around the horsetrack… I mean, it’s a hypothesis, and John DID introduce the “kicked in the head by a horse” thing.
Ms Clark
April 14th, 2006
07:59:15

http://www.drdisk.com.hk/archived/nina.htm
http://www.drdisk.com.hk/archived/asperger.htm

Here’s a little girl who is 11 now and was born in Hong Kong. She has some ASD, her parents thought she had Williams syndrome at first, then someone told them she had AS. The descriptions sound like she’d be called PDD,nos. Her face looks really close to normal, to me. She doesn’t look very much like a WS kid.

Anyway, this girl is older than 7. She was autistic before 1999.

John not only calls presidents of the US he also emails China. John, did China ever email you back?
M
April 14th, 2006
10:02:07

Might there be parallels between Kanner and dentistry? Ok, sounds weird, bear with me. In the US dentistry to preserve teeth (fillings, oral hygeine) developed relatively early in the 20th century. In the UK on the other hand, dentists were much more into agressive teeth removal – having all your teeth knocked out when you were about 18 to get a nice set of falsies that wouldn’t cause you trouble was certainly practiced! The UK dentists were well aware of their US colleages methods, but they didn’t accept them. Just because a renowned professional publishes a work doesn’t mean it is accepted. Probably the only way to track this would be by looking at US vs UK medical journals. The NAS was founded in 1962, which is a good date to start with :)

How about Down Syndrome? There are artistic representations of people with DS right back to the 16th century (I think). Most interestingly, the first really good one is an angel. But it wasn’t until Langdon Down that all these individuals were classified as having the same condition. Given the genetic basis for DS, the numbers are likely to have been stable, but no-one noticed them, even with an obvious facial dysmorphia. How much more difficult would it have been to spot autism which is much less obvious?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/en.....t=Abstract
The important part to note there is “Langdon Down’s description of the condition occurred only after evolution of concepts regarding the clinical significance of physical appearance and measurement”
You’ve got to look to find something.
bonni
April 14th, 2006
10:23:58

In previous generations, autistic kids were just dismissed as “idiots” (i.e., retarded) and that was pretty much the end of it. Nobody paid much attention or bothered to write down the activities and behviors of the “feeble minded”. Why should they? So the kid is flapping hands, spinning plates, doesn’t talk, he’s feeble minded, nothing to be done for that, right?

The belief that autism is “new” because it has never been previously described in current medical terms is pretty short sighted and shows a very distinct lack of understanding of history and how historical documents are assessed.

And while we’re at it, what did Mozart die of? The physicians of the time gave it some strange name (some sort of fever that we now don’t even recognize as a disorder or disease), but what was it really? Was it poisoning? Was it kidney disease? Why didn’t the doctors in late 18th century Vienna just write it all down in terms that a 21st century physician could understand, dammit!
John Best
April 14th, 2006
10:56:40

I see. So really, your argument that Eli Lilly invented autism in 1931 is supported by your belief that all autism is mercury poisoning, for which your proof is that Eli Lilly invented autism in 1931?

Did you miss some posts. The proof is that Kanner told us it did not exist. It took about 60 years but Bernard, Holmes and Geier found the reason it did not exist. Your 19th century autistics had genetic autism not MP.
John Best
April 14th, 2006
11:09:42

Ms Clark;
You didn’t tell us anything about the vaccinations of the Chinese and Egyptian kids.
I had a grandmother with Alzheimer’s and my wife’s mother had Alzheimer’s and probably OCD. Sounds like an inability to excrete mercury is in the genes. My grandfather was a bookie so gambling must be genetic too.
John Best
April 14th, 2006
11:19:48

Kevin;
I’ll have to look at your links this afternoon about China. Time to go golfing.
M
April 14th, 2006
13:03:24

JB: “The proof is that Kanner told us it did not exist.”

Mmnkay… medical profession now = evil (or at least misguided and blinded by the Big Conspiracy). Single doctor, making single assertion in the 1940s = Unassailably right.
anonimouse
April 14th, 2006
15:20:53

John,

“Your 19th century autistics had genetic autism not MP.”

Ok, so we’ve got that out of the way. Autism is not always mercury poisoning. Turn in your Generation Rescue membership card and commemorative t-shirt.

“The proof is that Kanner told us it did not exist.”

Tell me how you know that what Kanner saw was different than “genetic autism”. Because Kanner sure as hell didn’t.
Prometheus
April 14th, 2006
17:44:48

John/Fore Sam,

Your assertion that Kanner was describing a new disorder doesn’t hold water once you read the actual text of his 1943 article. I quote:

“Since 1938, there have come to our attention a number of children whose condition differs so markedly and uniquely from anything reported so far, that each case merits – and, I hope, will eventually receive – a detailed consideration of its fascinating peculiarities.” (italics mine)

Nowhere in his article does Kanner say that these children’s condition had never been observed before, just not reported. I know that this may be a terribly subtle difference for someone who – like yourself – is irrevocably wedded to a false dogma and not too knowledgeable about science, but it is a significant distinction.

Just like the scientists who discover new species – often “hiding” in plain sight – the importance is in recognizing that these children – who had previously worn the “tag” of childhood schizophrenia or mental retardation – were fundamentally different from other children with that “tag”.

There is a useful lesson to be learned from this in reference to the present day. While autism was felt to be a rare disorder, it was rarely diagnosed. Once a few researchers reported that it was more common than previously thought, it was seen more and more often. This is your “autism epidemic”, John, not some hyped conspiracy theory about mercury, vaccines and “Big Pharma”.

Prometheus.
Ms Clark
April 14th, 2006
18:34:31

The autistics in China vaccinated before 1999,

(I’m assuming that they all had access to vaccines and that their parents were wise and loving and wanted to keep their children safe from vaccine preventable diseases and that there was no contraindication for their particular children to get vaccinated)

didn’t get thimerosal containing vaccines. So the girl I met and the girl from the website didn’t get TCV’s (WMDs).

Isn’t that the whole point of your “there was no autism in China before 1999” rant (misdirection or lie).

You have admitted that non-mercury poisoning related autism was around before 1931, then it suddenly disappeared and was replaced by MP which looks nothing at all like Mercury poisoning, contrary to the non-peer reviewed, desperate ramblings of Sally (who has 2 different names for some reason) Bernard. That paper is coo-coo.

Speaking of the financial and housing status of “trailer dwelling coo-coos,” John B. ... how about John S, of whale.to where does he live? I think he might have been who Lenny was thinking of when Lenny wrote that he didn’t want any “red herring antivaxers” on the EoHarm list, but lo and behold, there he is on the EoHarm list… the guy who thinks there is a consipricay between Jews and Jesuits or something to run the world. I wonder how many Jesuits are antivax? Just curious.

Did China email you back? I can translate if they answered in Chinese.

And now you say you have problems, inherited, with mercury excretion, but we should be listening to you, someone who must have a rotted brain, by your own definition? Just like we should listen to John S who is worried about the CIA using cell phone towers for mind control (get out your tin foil thought screen helmet). Just like Lenny who (rumor has it) won’t admit who his adopted son is.
John is such a GAY name anyway
April 14th, 2006
18:41:17

” It looks like 5 out of 6 tolerate it. The rest are somehow affected.”

If that was anywhere near true than Autism rates would be over 20% of every vaccinated population.

Yet as you yourself said:
“If the autism is the same now as it was in 1880, how come we donâ€™t have posthumous descriptions for 1 in 166 people from 1880?”

So what is the prevalance John (if you don’t know the correct meanings and/or spellings of any of the above mentioned words I suggest you – finally- get a dictionary).
Anne
April 14th, 2006
18:45:22

John, I think your understanding of Kanner’s work comes from Dan Olmsted’s newspaper articles. If you read Kanner’s series of papers on autism, you will see that he did not think it was new and that he thought it was inherited. Furthermore, he thought that environment played a role in outcome, in that his subjects who were institutionalized fared worse than those who were not.
Kevin Champagne
April 14th, 2006
19:43:29

“This girl was born in China. The family had not been here that long, maybe 3 or 4 years. Itâ€™s unlikely that the family still lives here”

“A few years later I met an Egyptian family that had an autistic son, he was born in Egypt and came here at about age 3, he had twin little brothers also born in Egypt. When I met them the autistic boy was close to 4.â€”-”

Section 341 of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 imposed certain vaccination requirements on all persons seeking green cards in the U.S. These requirements apply to persons seeking to adjust their status to permanent residence in the U.S. as well as to those who apply for immigrant visas to enter the U.S. if the application was filed after September 30, 1996. It does not apply to persons applying for nonimmigrant (temporary) visas.

The law requires that would-be immigrants be vaccinated against the following diseases: Mumps, measles, rubella (“German measles”), polio, tetanus and diphtheria toxoids, pertussis, influenza type b, hepatitis B, and any other “vaccine preventable” diseases that may be recommended by the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices (ACIP) of the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The ACIP guidelines also include varicella, haemophilus influenza type B and pneumococcal vaccines.

From Part 2: The Age of Autism: The Amish anomaly
“”Unfortunately our autistic daughter—who’s doing very well, she’s been diagnosed with very, very severe autism—is adopted from China, and so she would have had all her vaccines in China before we got her, and then she had most of her vaccines given to her in the United States before we got her.”

Most likely the children that you met from Egypt and China, received vaccinations here (the United States ) because of the length of time you say they spent here.
Dad Of Cameron
April 14th, 2006
20:00:00

KC, as long as you’re quoting “The Amish Anomaly”, you’re aware that there is autism in the Amish population, right?
John Best
April 14th, 2006
20:19:22

Prometheus;
It wasn’t reported because it didn’t exist. How could the whole world have missed train wrecks? Sure, Kanner was wrong on his guesses about the origin of autism. Like I said earlier, that wasn’t known with certainty until Geier proved it 3 years ago. Of course, Bernard and Holmes were in the forefront of pointing it out to everyone before that.
Kanner recognized the difference between fragile X and retts as different from MP. He just didn’t know the cause. With MP muddying the waters, people probably just assumed all autism was fragile X until the numbers started to skyrocket. Now thanks to Holmes, Cutler and the wonderful doctors of DAN, our train wreck kids are starting to return to the human race. Isn’t that a great reason to smile Prometheus, when some parent can announce that his kid has emerged from the horrible abyss of autism and can join his old man on the golf course! You should be rejoicing that a phenomenal scientist like Dr Holmes showed us the way! I thtink she should get a Nobel prize for her work
John Best
April 14th, 2006
20:31:13

Kevin;
I just don’t have the time to go through all your links. You must be right. I must’ve been foolish to say there was no autism in China before 1999. That’s what I heard someplace and I was dumb enough to believe it rather than checking with Neurodiverse Nation to see if I had my facts straight. I have tried many times to find more information about China, especially Liz Birt’s claim that there was now 5 million cases. I have no idea where she found that but it seems like she was not a liar so I’ll believe her. That’s one hell of a jump in a couple of years since I first heard the 1.8 million to be at 5 million 2 years later. I hope the DAN people going there later this year will come back with a better handle on those numbers and let us all know. In the meantime, I guess you can call me an idiot for not having a valid report to give you.
And, I don’t even care because I shot even par today on a course I had never seen before. Now I just have to check for value with horses running this weekend.
century
April 14th, 2006
20:38:08

Prometheus said,

“Nowhere in his article does Kanner say that these childrenâ€™s condition had never been observed before, just not reported.”

Tosh.
Prometheus
April 14th, 2006
20:40:49

John,

You are referring to Dr. Amy Holmes, of Holmes, Blaxill and Haley, I assume? The same “researchers” who found that the hair of autistic children had the “average” amount of mercury and the hair of “typical” children had over ten times the national average? If she is a “scientist”, then I am the Pope.

As far as missing “train wrecks”, I assume that “train wreck” is your offensive little term for autistic people? I suppose someone needs to tell you that this is an offensive way to refer to your child, let alone other people’s children. And you’re wrong – of course. Nothing new there – or have you found the 5 new million autistic Chinese children, yet?

Back in the days of Kanner, there were a number of facilities euphemistically called “institutions” where children who had what was then called “childhood schizophrenia” were often placed. These children were not missed, John, they were simply called something else until many years after Leo Kanner’s paper was published.

If that is a hard concept for you to grasp, John, then maybe you should consider the possibility that the whole issue – autism, mercury, etc. – is beyond your understanding. That’s sure how it looks on my side of the screen.

Prometheus
anonimouse
April 14th, 2006
20:53:45

John,

Now you’re just becoming a parody of yourself.

Besides, we all know you play from the women’s tees.
Ms Clark
April 14th, 2006
21:22:21

Kevin,

I believe that these children were all vaccinated in their home countries. The Chinese girl was not adopted like the Chinese girl in the Dan “shoot’em up with gold salts” Olmsted article was. If the child is adopted there might be problems with keeping track of vaccine records.

The Egyptian boy didn’t suddenly change when he got to the US. duh. His parents, who I went to talk to after 9-11 to see if they were being harassed for being Muslim (she wore a head covering all the time, I figured she might get harassed)... never thought that he had suddendly regressed after a vaccine. The little brothers were more likely to get vaccinated here, but that was 2001, so maybe they didn’t get TCV’s (WMD’s) here in California. At any rate, the autistic boy would have had his baby shots in Egypt.

Your insistence on vaccines as being the cause of all autism is just fascinating.

Off topic, but I can’t post this to EoHarm without losing my ability to motior the talk coming from various antivaxers on the EoHarm list (which is not supposed to have red herring antivaxers on it).

“Offit stated that the USA Today 6000% CDC ad was financed by the same people who did the same thing with breast plant litigation – meaning the trial lawyers and their supporters and organizations, like ATLA.

The statement is false and a slander of Gen Rescue and all
organizations listed on the ad, A-CHAMP, NAA, MAMA, and others.

Offit should be made to retract his slander.

The debate in this presentation insulting – and assumes that thimerosal has no relationship to neurodevelopmental disorders. I did enjoy the critque of Offit’s book. Offits spends most of his book showing the defects in the manufacture of the polio vaccine in 1955 and then blames the lawyers for all problems.”

The above quote comes from Bob Krakow mercury dad and lawyer. He is entirely misquoting Offit who said that the lying GR ad which had the psychotic number “6000” to represent that increase in “kanner autism” or whatever it said. Lawyer Krakow says that Offit said the ad was funded by the same people who funded a breast implant ad… or something. What Offit plainly said was the name of the ad agency or PR firm hired to make the ad or whatever they PR firms do. Duh, lawyer Krakow. Now who needs to retract what? I can’t remember the name of the ad agency/PR firm or whatever it was that Offit named… but it wasn’t “trial lawyers”. Good grief, these people are desperate to sling mud aren’t they? And Lenny says folks like me are “fifth column” and implies that we are being paid by the CDC. Psychosis is spreading.
Michael Ralston
April 14th, 2006
21:32:17

How could the whole world have missed train wrecks?

How’d they miss you?
Ms Clark
April 14th, 2006
21:52:19

Oh, the previous was addressed to Kevin Champagne who once accused me of being anti-Islam and tried to get a group of muslim women to come harass me at my blog. That was interesting. They didn’t cooperate for some reason, maybe they are “5th columnists” paid by the CDC… you never know.

If my memory serves, the name Offit said was “Fenton” or “Fenton group” who he said was behind the breast implant PR or something like that. I don’t follow the PR world. We could ask David Kirby.

I got the URL for the CSPAN video of Offit et al speaking from Wade’s post to EoHarm.

I hope Offit can get an apology from Krakow.
John Best
April 14th, 2006
21:54:50

Prometheus;
How could Kanner, as one of the leading people in the field, not know of the institutionalized train wrecks? He knew he was looking at something different from those train wrecks. Those train wrecks were probably fragile X or fetal alcohol syndrome or kicked in the head by horses. I don’t think there was much genetic research going on in the 1940’s so nobody had a clue what caused autism.
I can’t find fault with someone calling my kid a train wreck. His doctor called him a vegetable. I couldn’t argue with him. But now, thanks to that great Dr Holmes, he’s only like a train crash that didn’t leave the track. No doctor would call him a vegetable now. I think that’s something to celebrate! Let’s celebrate the improvement, not the neurodiversity.
Kev
April 14th, 2006
22:14:28

“Tosh.”

The paper’s right here.

In the opening paragraph Kanner writes:

“Since 1938 there have come to our attention a number of children whose condition differs so markedly and uniquely from anything reported so far…”

Would you like to retract your ‘tosh’ now? No? Lets turn to page 26 of that PDF where Kanner says:

“These characteristics form a unique syndrome not heretofore reported which seems to be rare enough yet is probably more frequent than is indicated by the paucity of observed cases.”

and John – whats this…surely not ‘diagnostic substitution’??? Surely not autism misdiagnosed as something else ???

“....and two had previously been described as schizophrenic.”

Kanner also says….

“the children of our group have all shown their extreme aloneness from the very beginning of life”

So, not after a few months like one would expect if something like oh I dunno….a vaccine….had caused their autism but from the very beginning of life. Kanner referred to them at the end of his paper as inborn.

Thus speaks the man John that you call the ‘expert’.

“Your 19th century autistics had genetic autism not MP.”

So you’re now deftly attempting to switch from your stated position that all autism is caused by mercury poisoning and that autism was invented by Eli Lilly in 1931 to one where there is something called ‘genetic autism’ and ‘mercury induced autism’.

How nice you can finally see that. And how nice we have it somewhere you can’t delete.

“I just donâ€™t have the time to go through all your links. You must be right. I mustâ€™ve been foolish to say there was no autism in China before 1999.”

Hey, look at that! Two for two! You’ve now admitted you were wrong that autism was invented by Eli Lilly in 1931 and you’ve also admitted you were wrong to state there was no autism in China prior to 1999. In fact, its three for three as you’ve also defaultly acknowledged that all autism is not caused by mercury poisoning.

OK, lets move on to #4

Johnâ€™s role as speaker at mercury militia marches and his position with Generation Rescue

John got up to speak at (I believe) the first mercury militia rally and spoke of his work with Generation Rescue.

John?
Kevin Champagne
April 14th, 2006
22:27:29

“Your insistence on vaccines as being the cause of all autism is just fascinating.”

I never said that I believe that all autism is do to vaccines.

“Oh, the previous was addressed to Kevin Champagne who once accused me of being anti-Islam and tried to get a group of muslim women to come harass me at my blog. That was interesting. They didnâ€™t cooperate for some reason, maybe they are â€œ5th columnistsâ€ paid by the CDCâ€¦ you never know.”

Not exactly what happened but you go ahead and remember it the way you want to.
Sue M.
April 14th, 2006
22:30:07

Is it me or is Kev appearing more and more desperate as the months go on? I wonder why?
Kevin Champagne
April 14th, 2006
22:33:09

â€œYour insistence on vaccines as being the cause of all autism is just fascinating.â€

Your insistence on vaccines “not” having anything to do with autism at all is what’s trully fascinating.
Sue M.
April 14th, 2006
22:42:45

Ms. Clark wrote:

“I hope Offit can get an apology from Krakow”.

– The mere thought of that is hilarious, Ms. Clark. As if Krakow would need to apologize to Offit… Did you not notice that within 5 minutes of Krakow’s post, someone corrected him. Then, minutes later Krakow agreed that she was correct and he had been incorrect in his previous statement? So, what’s your issue again? Stop fiddling.
John Best
April 14th, 2006
23:16:20

Kev;
I don’t know anything about the hierarchy of GR. I’m just a guy who volunteered to be a rescue angel. I know, I’m not much like an angel but I have helped some parents get pointed in the right direction to help kids. The speaking I’ve done was mostly before GR was formed. Someone asked me to speak at a rally who was not associated with GR. I don’t know where she had heard of me. I’m just as politically incorrect when I speak as I am on these blogs so I wouldn’t choose me to be a spokesman either. However, people always cheered for what I said so I must not have been that bad.
MP is not autism. It’s a misdiagnosis. Fragile X is now known as a genetic problem so that’s also a bad term as is Rett’s. Autism was coined when nobody knew the cause so it probably should not be used anymore. However, for convenience, I’m sure the word autism describes the symptoms so it’s all just splitting hairs. The autism that should be called MP didn’t exist until Eli Lilly invented it. You haven’t proved otherwise because you can’t give a reason why any person prior to1931 was autistic. We’ll get better information on China someday and they’ll be jumping all over us when they figure out we poisoned them with thimerosal. Maybe that’ll start WWIII.
Kev
April 14th, 2006
23:19:41

“Is it me or is Kev appearing more and more desperate as the months go on? “

Yes, its you.

“MP is not autism”

You heard it here first folks :o)
Kassiane
April 14th, 2006
23:37:17

I’m having trouble understanding why we need to know why something was (autism) but mr. best doesn’t see the need to PROVE his ascertation. Hey wait! No one knows for sure the cause of autism, but it’s looking mightily genetic (theres, I think, 6 or 7 genes in the OMIM listing). Not mercury. Not shots. Not living by a fishery. GENETICS.

Put up or shut up, Mr. Best. You have no proof. Kids supposedly recovering isn’t “proof”, there’s huge placebo effect in treatment-of-autism studies.

Real proof. Admit you don’t have it, or put it forward.
Ms Clark
April 15th, 2006
00:38:39

(off new topic)
Sue M. wrote “Did you not notice that within 5 minutes of Krakowâ€™s post, someone corrected him. Then, minutes later Krakow agreed that she was correct and he had been incorrect in his previous statement? So, whatâ€™s your issue again? Stop fiddling”

No I haven’t been back to check on what was on EoHarm. I’m glad that lawyer Krakow retracted his way out there silly statement. Paul Offit is not Satan, Sue. I know it’s hard for you to get that into your head, but he’s not Satan.

Kevin C, you did go to a blog that was frequented by Muslim women and posted that I had said something anti-muslim, which was actually a comment on Buttar. They didn’t come post comment on my blog.

Note:
It looks like Blaxill took his daughter to see Wakefield back prior to 2000 and there was a scoping done, but it also looks like his daughter (who he describes as having a “top tier head size like her father’s”) wasn’t one of the originial 12 who were in Wakefield’s original study, though there was an American among them.

There’s some comments from Blaxill on ambd from back in 2001 or so where he quotes some epidemiological studies from China done on autism in the mid 1990’s and earlier. Funny.
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
01:10:30

Ms. Clark wrote:

“No I havenâ€™t been back to check on what was on EoHarm. Iâ€™m glad that lawyer Krakow retracted his way out there silly statement. Paul Offit is not Satan, Sue. I know itâ€™s hard for you to get that into your head, but heâ€™s not Satan”.

– He actually retracted it about 30 minutes after he posted it which was a few hours BEFORE you made your error. On to Offit, I don’t necessarily believe that Offit is Satan (although if you look hard enough it is possible that I have made such comments:)... I just think that he is very sure of his belief and won’t listen to reason. He is probably sheltering himself with people who believe like him and calls the rest of us freaks and psychos. He really needs to listen because he’s wrong… very wrong…
clone3g
April 15th, 2006
01:18:58

Sue M. I just think that he is very sure of his belief and wonâ€™t listen to reason. He is probably sheltering himself with people who believe like him and calls the rest of us freaks and psychos. He really needs to listen because heâ€™s wrongâ€¦ very wrongâ€¦

Sue, you’ve just described every mercury parent I’ve ever met.
Dad Of Cameron
April 15th, 2006
01:21:56

“I just think that he is very sure of his belief and wonâ€™t listen to reason.”

Projecting Sue?

Methinks you much more of a bleever than Offit. He openly acknowledges the risks (including death) associated with vaccination, while you refuse to acknowledge the risks of infectious disease, let alone consider any social responsibility. – “My herd is my family”
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
01:31:48

Clone wrote:

“Sue, youâ€™ve just described every mercury parent Iâ€™ve ever met”.

– How many mercury parents have you met, Clone?
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
01:38:55

Dad wrote:

“Methinks you much more of a bleever than Offit. He openly acknowledges the risks (including death) associated with vaccination, while you refuse to acknowledge the risks of infectious disease, let alone consider any social responsibility. â€“ â€œMy herd is my familyâ€

– Dad, you neglect to mention the fact that Offit sees the risks as being these totally rare events blah, blah, blah. He refuses to acknowledge that vaccines could have anything to do with autism nor does he show any interest in researching the issue further. He is not trustworthy. I, on the other hand, understand that there are infectious diseases out there which could be dangerous (certainly not flu or Hep B for God’s sake)... and I understand that I need to research each and every vaccine that I would give my child to see if the risk/reward warrants giving the vaccine. Simple. It’s called common sense. Get some. I’m sorry if the comment about my family is my herd was offensive to you. Get over it.
clone3g
April 15th, 2006
01:43:35

Sue M, How many mercury parents have you met?

Enough. You’ve met one you’ve met them all.
Dad Of Cameron
April 15th, 2006
01:47:22

Sue, the problem is that your risk/reward analysis is determined by selfish, ignorant, means. And I truly have no problem with that, I don’t dictate your ethics. But you live in society…and ah forget it.

Kevin, can you host a Pro infectious disease thread for Sue M next? This is distracting from JBJr.
Dad Of Cameron
April 15th, 2006
02:12:52

Here’s where Kassiane left off:

“Put up or shut up, Mr. Best. You have no proof. Kids supposedly recovering isnâ€™t â€œproofâ€, thereâ€™s huge placebo effect in treatment-of-autism studies.

Real proof. Admit you donâ€™t have it, or put it forward.”
John Best
April 15th, 2006
02:25:31

Kev;
That’s right, MP isn’t autism. Do you think the medical profesion will admit that someday? Kanner would’ve called it MP too if he had figured it out.
John Best
April 15th, 2006
02:33:22

Kassiane and DOC;
Geier gave us proof. Bill Frist gace us proof. Verstraeten gave us proof. Haley gave us proof. Deth gave us proof. So did Holmes, Bernard, Cutler and every parent who has cured their kid. Curing autism IS proof. All you dopes who had genetic testing done and found nothing there can add your names to those sane and caring parents who gave us more proof by getting your heads out of your asses and helping your kids instead of letting them rot. Arguing in favor of letting children rot is not intelligent. It would behoove you who think that way to call Generation Rescue right now and have a rescue angel help you. I don’t mind helping kids who have idiots for parents and I think most other rescue angels feel the same way.
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
02:50:45

Dad wrote:

“Sue, the problem is that your risk/reward analysis is determined by selfish, ignorant, means. And I truly have no problem with that, I donâ€™t dictate your ethics. But you live in societyâ€¦and ah forget it”.

– So, I can assume that you got the flu shot for your son, right. I mean for the good of society you should have. Do you know that there are a bunch of old people who die of the flu each year, by not vaccinating your child, Dad, you have put them at risk… so did you do it?
Ms Clark
April 15th, 2006
03:40:58

Sue,

When I saw Krakow’s post there weren’t any resposnses. A few minutes later, maybe a half hour maximum… I posted it here. I think you are confused by the times shown your Yahoo! email or website, and the time shown here… we have different time zones on this earth. That must be what is confusing you.

Still, it’s pretty funny the Krakow jumped to that conclusion and went on EoHarm spewing such a patently false statement without bothering to check the facts..sure sounds like par for the course among mercury parents.

Sue, so you are saying that under certain conditions you would vaccinate your kids… real world, likely conditions not like, “yeah when an angel appears to me and tells me that Offit is not Satan…” that sort of thing?

Won’t you lose your membership to the antivax club for saying that?

As far as I can tell, very few, a very very small percent of the parents are claiming to have cured their child, and none of the parents are “the biggies” which is funny, because it’s only “the biggies” where you can hope to get a good description of the child before he was cured.

Bernard, Redwood and Blaxill, none of them have “cured” a child of their own. Amazing. They’ve done everything to those kids from the sound of it. Blaxill claims little gains for his daughter from Secretin, mostly in her bowel movements.

Bernard’s son looks like he has a genetic disorder or something that happened in embryonic development. Blaxill says his daughter’s head is really big. ??? But it’s not the genes.
Dad Of Cameron
April 15th, 2006
04:13:03

Sue, are you on something? Everyone in my family gets them and has all immunizations. My wife works in helathcare, so it’s a two-way street there, she’s not exposing vulnerable, and not bringing it home from patients either. Fortunately, my wife’s employer provides ours. We had to make two trips to get the kids completed after they’d run out. Do you have anything relevant to John’s conversation?

John, I am curious, which work of Geier’s do you find compelling as scientific proof?
Jonathan Semetko
April 15th, 2006
04:19:24

Mr. Best,

You write “Curing autism IS proof”

Lets look at that:

So when Virginia Axeline cured Dibs, in her psychodynamic book “Dibs: In search of Self” she proved that bad parenting really is the cause of autism?

I mean, she got the mother to admit that she caused her son’s autism by the end of the book; that is definately better than what Lenny and company have gotten out of Frist or Vertstraten.
Ms Clark
April 15th, 2006
04:52:04

There is a problem, apparently with the EoHarm time stamp…
Lawyer Krakow posts at “8:09 am” with his accusation the Offit is slandering them…
“... Offit should be made to retract his slander…”
Which he posts in response to Christine Hereen whose post is time stamped 10:26 am and 10:28 am (more than 2 hours after Krakow responds to her..??
She says: “OMG he’s showing the …USA Today Ad. He talked about our group. He called us “sinister’””

Yeah… except he didn not call y’all sinister darlin’ he called you what you really are….

*”cynical.”*

Krakow doesn’t retract what he wrote until what looks like 41 minutes later, but you can’t tell because it also looks like the time stamp is off by 2 hours… Anyway, I didn’t see the responses and I don’t know how long it was before those responses appeared on the website.

I don’t know if anyone has corrected Christine’s bad hearing of “cynical” yet. Christine hears “sinister” when Offit says “cynical,” maybe Christine knows something about her group, you know, Freud and all.
Kassiane
April 15th, 2006
05:16:36

We’ve been over this. Your so called cured kids don’t count. Wait a few years and you’ll see the facade of normalcy crumble. Assuming people aren’t flat out lying, in which case the facade was never built or the kids were never autistic.

Geier wants to chemically castrate kids. He doesn’t count. Bernard is, what, some kind of market analyst or something of the sort? Do you know any REAL DOCTORS (MD type doctors) who believe in this crap? I sure don’t. Come on, if you’re right doctors would be jumping on this. But gasp you’re wrong.

Put up or shut up.
Kev
April 15th, 2006
05:38:13

“Thatâ€™s right, MP isnâ€™t autism. Do you think the medical profesion will admit that someday? “

I think everyone except you SafeMinds, GR, NAA and all the other litigants know full well that mercury poisoning isn’t autism John. And now you seem to realise it too. Good for you :o)

“Geier gave us proof. Bill Frist gace us proof. Verstraeten gave us proof. Haley gave us proof. Deth gave us proof. So did Holmes, Bernard, Cutler”

None of these people gave you anything John except a desire to cling to absurdities :o)

“Curing autism IS proof.”

I’ll add to Jon’s Dibs example and ask you about Raun Kaufman – cured of autism by Son-Rise according to him and his parents. Maybe you could give the Son-Rise program a once over and explain to us all exactly what parts of that program are responsible for removing the mercury and reversing the accompnying physical damage mercury poisoning leaves on the brain?

“I donâ€™t mind helping kids who have idiots for parents and I think most other rescue angels feel the same way.”

Classy John. JB should incorporate that as the Rescue Angels motto. You could get little badges made up and everything.
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
13:10:32

Ms. Clark wrote:

“There is a problem, apparently with the EoHarm time stampâ€¦”

– I don’t know what you are seeing but from my screen it shows… 11:09 : Krakow makes his initial incorrect statement. 11:13 (4 min later): Christine corrects him. 11:21 (8 min later from that): Krakow thanks her for pointing that out and says he’ll check it. Some minutes later he acknowledges the mistake. So, what’s the big deal… and more importantly who cares? Yes, apparently I do for spending the time to actually look into something that is so irrelevant.
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
13:13:45

Dad wrote:

“Sue, are you on something? Everyone in my family gets them and has all immunizations”.

– Well, I hope that you specifically asked for thimerosal-free at least. If so, consider yourself lucky. You actually knew enough about the situation to ask specifically for the non-poisonous vaccine. If you didn’t ask for thimerosal-free, than good luck to you. I mean that, I don’t wish ill will upon anyone so I mean it… good luck with that.
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
13:22:54

Ms. Clark wrote:

“Sue, so you are saying that under certain conditions you would vaccinate your kidsâ€¦ real world, likely conditions not like, â€œyeah when an angel appears to me and tells me that Offit is not Satanâ€¦â€ that sort of thing”?

– You are forgetting something, Camille, my two oldest are already fully vaccinated… (why do you think I’m in this situation)? So other than a few boosters here and there which they may/may not need, they are all set. As for flu shots (which are recommended for my entire family due to my daughter’s high risk)... are you kidding me? Why would I ever get another flu shot? Foolish. My little guy is not fully vaccinated and will not be fully vaccinated. I am considering 1 or 2 for him but that’s about it. I’ve already stated that I don’t think that Offit is Satan, just a dumb ass!
Ms Clark
April 15th, 2006
13:49:44

Sue,
I wasn’t asking if you could go back and unvaccinate your kids, obviously not. I think you have ASD kids because of your and the kids’ father’s genes and that vaccines are not a contributing factor.

You exaggerate the toxicity of thimerosal to the point of utter ridiculousness.

I’m not afraid of thimerosal. My ASD kid and I have been getting vaxed with the flu (and pneumonia) shots since I learned about the mercury parent bleever line. I have assumed that the vaccines all contained thimerosal, though it’s possible that the pneumonia shot didn’t… I didn’t ask what kind it was.

That horrible “toxic” stuff is getting injected into kids as we speak, but SAFE MINDS which has money to spend on PR firms doesn’t just ask if they can do some tests on the kids that are getting the shots. Why? Because they know that it’s not dangerous and they know it doesn’t cause autism by now. They probably bleeved it in the beginning. They just need to keep that doubt going until the special master tells them to take a their lawyers and their tin foil hats, and unvaxed kids and leave the courtroom for good. (at which point they will probably try to incite a Rodney King verdict style riot in the streets).

Children may die specificially because of the work of GR and SAFEMINDS and UA … parents may say, “my now dead baby would still be here, but I heard what Mr. X of that autism organization said, and I got afraid of vaccines…”

That’s what it boils down to. Then you’ve got John Best Jr. who not only will specifically recommend that kids not get vaccinated, but that the parents not see a doctor if the kid gets sick. Forget the ones that have talked to him directly, on his blog he says that doctors are reptiles. Let’s hope his kid (and the kids of the parents who listen to him) doesn’t step on a nail or develop appendicitis, or need a tooth pulled.
Sue M.
April 15th, 2006
14:09:50

Ms. Clark wrote:

“I think you have ASD kids because of your and the kidsâ€™ fatherâ€™s genes and that vaccines are not a contributing factor”.

– You may want to ask Clone about my “ASD kids”, Camille.

Ms. Clark wrote:

“You exaggerate the toxicity of thimerosal to the point of utter ridiculousness”.

– This may be true, Ms. Clark. So far, however, no one has been able to show me that it is safe to be injected into babies and mercury is a neurotoxin after all… So what’s more ridiculous me protesting against it, or you sticking up for it?
John Best
April 15th, 2006
14:18:15

Ms Clark;
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I don’t refer to anyone as reptiles. It’s not a word I use. I do call doctors scumbags and other names for continuing to lie about the fact that they caused this epidemic by not knowing how much mercury they were shooting into infants. I also do not advise anyone to skip vaccinations. I left one group a long time ago that wanted to get rid of all shots. I only advise people to make sure they aren’t getting thimerosal. I also think it’s a good idea to break up the MMR into 3 shots while saving the measles part until last since it is questionable.
SIDS has killed far more babies than chelation. Autistic kids drown, wander away and have been killed during exorcisms who have not been chelated. You make yourself look like a wacko by trying to scare people away from chelation because two dumb doctors administered the wrong drug.
You should be rejoicing for those children who have benefited from chelation and are escaping the horror that is autism. Some of them will go on to live productive lives and will not have someone changing their diapers when they’re in their 30’s. You would make yourself more credible if you stuck to the truth and told people that chelation only claims to cure 50% while 75% show some improvement. We don’t know how many people have tried chelation but the improvement of those who have far outweighs the risk of two cases of more medical malpractice. The honest scientists who are trying to help these kids have more to learn. The Geier’s claim that Lupron is helping children. I want to know more before I’d consider trying it. Calling the use of Lupron chemical castration when used on kids who have not reached puberty is not a valid argument. I think that’s why the Geier’s advised not to use it on kids over a certain age.
I’d like to know what tests you have on your kid that show its’ autism is caused by genes. If you don’t know that for a fact, it would be in your kid’s best interests to consider the fact that thimerosal has now been causing the thing mistakenly called autism for 75 years.
John Best
April 15th, 2006
14:28:18

Kassiane;
You’ve made the mistake of assuming that someone in a certain profession can’t also be quite knowledgeable on other subjects. DAN doctors are real doctors. Those associated with DAN who don’t have MD after their name are not doctors. See what you can learn if you pay attention!
While your hope of recovery may be nil, kids who were flung into the abyss by mercury are recovering. Only a fool would try to deny that. I think you’re just jealous that your genes won’t let you escape the nightmare that you live. Others have viable options for recovery and not giving them that chance to recover is malpractice by the medical profession. Parents who aren’t bright enough to learn this can be excused from the child abuse rap by their stupidity. However, the doctors who advise them know better and they should be held accountable for allowing these children to suffer when options are available to help them. I think you are too angry at your own situation to be able to grasp the facts.
John Best
April 15th, 2006
14:36:06

Kevin;
If we put all the scientists I mentioned in front of a jury, I think it would be quite easy to gain a verdict. If the IOM hadn’t been ordered to find otherwise, they would’ve come to the same conclusion.
Right again Kev, MP isn’t autism. Autism has been misnamed. This epidemic should be called the MP epidemic not the autism epidemic. And, in time, that will happen.
I don’t know anything about Sunrise or kids recovering from bad parenting. However, your kid can probably recover from bad parenting and , if you’d like, you can ship her over to New Hampshire and I’ll chelate her for you.
Kev
April 15th, 2006
16:56:05

“If we put all the scientists I mentioned in front of a jury, I think it would be quite easy to gain a verdict.”

No doubt, but what would that verdict be? And this isn’t a legal debate John, this is a scientific one.

“Right again Kev, MP isnâ€™t autism. Autism has been misnamed. This epidemic should be called the MP epidemic not the autism epidemic. And, in time, that will happen.”

lol…righto :o)

“I donâ€™t know anything about Sunrise or kids recovering from bad parenting.”

I know you don’t John, you don’t know anything about much to be honest. So let me summarise. A few children have been ‘cured’ by psychology and by a method called Son-Rise. Neither of them involve mercury or removal of mercury. How can that be?

“However, your kid can probably recover from bad parenting and , if youâ€™d like, you can ship her over to New Hampshire and Iâ€™ll chelate her for you.”

I’m 100% serious when I say I wouldn’t let a child of mine within a hundred feet of you.
Dad Of Cameron
April 15th, 2006
17:10:43

“You would make yourself more credible if you stuck to the truth and told people that chelation only claims to cure 50% while 75% show some improvement.”

And it is a silly claim. If we took conservative numbers like 400,000 ASD kids in the U.S. and 5% of parents having tried chelation at some point, at a claimed 50% ‘cure’ rate, there should be 10,000 ‘cured’ kids.
Kassiane
April 15th, 2006
18:02:33

Removing all testosterone, regardless of age, is chemical castration. Duh.

Let’s go way back to a dark period of history when they made beautiful operas. They needed boys/men to play girls and women since they weren’t allowed on stage. You know how they managed this?

By cutting off their balls (where TESTOSTERONE is made) before they hit puberty. This is physical castration. Notice the castrato singers hadn’thit*puberty.

What the Geiers are doing, without any approval, is the same damn thing minus a knife.

THere are loads of DAN practitioners who aren’t MDs or who aren’t board certified (gee wonder why?). I know more than anyone would WANT to know about anticonvulsants but no one is going to let me prescribe. Why should DAN people be any different? (because the mercury nuts said so of course).

Recovery implies there is something to recover FROM, a preexisting state that differs from the one present. It ain’t there, Mr Best. This is likely why no one has suggested you go to anger management to recover from being a rage-aholic. Being addicted to anger is far worse than being autistic.

You seem very unhappy. I feel sorry for you, and more sorry for your wife, and most sorry for your kid. Since you had the unmitigated stupidity to teach him how to fight, I hope he makes good use of those skills. You know, so you end up missing a tooth. Because of the legacy of anger you passed down.

Damn. And you thought I wasn’t paying attention.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 15th, 2006
19:38:06

Kassiane: “Damn. And you thought I wasnâ€™t paying attention.”

JBJr has never paid attention to anyone in his life. He doesn’t care what reaction he gets to his imbecilic rage-rants from anyone as long as he gets one; and, the more severe, the better it is for him. It is entirely possible that he does this for the fun of stirring people.

In the UK, we’d call him a heckler. In the US, I believe you’d call him a baitor.

Believe me when I tell you… he’s a master.
M
April 15th, 2006
20:45:34

“Believe me when I tell youâ€¦ heâ€™s a master.”

I’ve just watched Dr Who… We know that the Master had run out of regenerations and had to find new bodies… perhaps JBJr had been innocently walking along one day and then bam taken over by evil Time Lord. Now we just need to find what universe-destroying plan is behind all this…
Jonathan Semetko
April 15th, 2006
21:09:39

Mr. Best wrote ” Autistic kids drown, wander away and have been killed during exorcisms”

All three cases are also true for typically developing kids.

Does those type of kids require cure then?
John Best
April 15th, 2006
22:28:16

Kev;
Are you deleting posts again or did the last one I wrote disappear due to computer error?
Kev
April 15th, 2006
23:19:55

I’ve not deleted any posts, neither are any of your comments in my moderation queue. Either you wrote something appalling enough to trigger automatic deletion, or you imagined you wrote it or you lost it.
clone3g
April 15th, 2006
23:22:17

Hey John,
Kev was kind enough to provide a platform for your unconventional views, won’t you at least try to make a point or two?

What of this genetic inability to excrete mercury? Care to expand on that for us? Which genes or proteins are involved again?
Kev
April 15th, 2006
23:38:09

To me, John’s explanation behind his public speaking sound like a load of old crap. Its also interesting that no one from GR has turned up to deny John’s role with GR.

Anyway, we have a lot to still get through so lets plough on through the rest of this cesspool.

Johnâ€™s opinion on homosexuality, which he believes is â€˜a perversionâ€™, and his subsequent opinion of David Kirby.

John has stated many times that homosexuality is a perversion which can be cured with a dose of self respect. John likens sexuality to paedophilia, beastiality and rape. He states that these acts are on the same level as those that occur between consenting adults.

John has offered no opinion on what he thinks about David Kirby, but one is forced to extrapolate that he believes Mr Kirby is a pervert akin to a rapist, or child abuser.

Now, may of you may be wondering what this has to do with autism or Generation Rescue, or the Rescue Angel program. To that I’d like to remind you that John, as a representative of Generation Rescue is often invited into peoples homes and almost certainly spends time with their children.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
02:00:32

Camille;
My kids go to doctors when they’re sick. I even let them get vaccines as long as there’s no thimerosal. Nobody ever asked me for medical advice, only information about mercury and chelation.
JB Handley is an intellectual, something you pseudo-intellectuals will never understand. He impresses me as a normal guy, not some wack job who has their brain affected by mercury and won’t listen to those who would like to help them.
Were your relatives vaccinated after 1931? Genetic stuff isn’t any specific thing. Maybe the genetic stuff you found has to do with susceptibility to mercury.
I heard from a couple of people in China but it was a long time ago. I didn’t hear back from their government.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
02:09:01

Kevin;
I met Kirby last year. He seemed normal to me.
Now can I have your opinion of pending psychologists who want to send pictures of their groins to people?
If I were invited into someone’s home, I think they’d be happy to know I don’t consider perversions to be normal.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
02:14:42

Kassiane;
I wrote a reply to you but it disppeared. Not teaching a kid how to fight would be the stupid thing when he gets his ass kicked. Besides, fighting is fun and great exercise.
Kassiane
April 16th, 2006
03:29:02

Teaching a kid who can’t differentiate the social nuances of who is and isn’t ok to hit how to fight is DAMNED STUPID, especially if you’re still torturing him with all that nonsense.

I’m tiny and knocked out my dad’s front teeth. Is that what you want? An autistic boy I worked with could throw off any adult who tried to restrain him (i find restraints cruel and refused). He also gave people concussions. Is that what you want?

Your kid isn’t going to be made unautistic. Time to start accepting reality.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 16th, 2006
03:51:56

John the Bastard: “Now can I have your opinion of pending psychologists who want to send pictures of their groins to people?”

The obsession with my groin was yours (for when ample evidence exists). I can honestly say that you have indeed overstepped the line here. You are in trouble. And I don’t think Kevin will take the evidence away.

You dug your hole… now you gonna wnd up dropping down it.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 16th, 2006
03:53:47

Kev: “To that Iâ€™d like to remind you that John, as a representative of Generation Rescue is often invited into peoples homes and almost certainly spends time with their children.”

He turn up anywhere near my daughter, and I can guarantee that three people will be out for his blood.
Ms Clark
April 16th, 2006
03:55:39

What makes you think my relatives in Texas in the 1920’s got any vaccinations? I think my dad must have had a smallpox vaccine he had a big pock mark on his arm, but I confuse that with the TB tine test… which I had as a kid… maybe it was loaded with thimerosal… but I was acting autistic when I was 2… and had a pretty big head at 18 mos from what I can see in a photograph.

I’ve laid out my guesses as to what genetic disorders are in my family and in my ex’s family on my blog, that’s bad enough. I’m not going to detail it here further. Privacy is still a good thing.

I’m really surprised that you would allow your kids to get vaccinated. You wrote that “Rubella, Chicken Pox and Mumps that really donâ€™t cause any harm.” Which is false. Though, I think harm from Chicken Pox is really rare… I might pass on the chicken pox vaccine if I had a little one, but maybe I’d think it was good, too. I take my dog to get her vaccinated, too.

The Rescue Angels give all kinds of advice, like pointing parents to DAN! doctors… how ‘bout that high dose vitamin A therapy John? How ‘bout that thing about oxidative stress and then putting the kids in a hyperbaric oxygen chamber that would tend to ratchet up the oxidative stress… what kind of advice to give on that? How about nasal b12 and valtrex? Handley says his kid started talking after a day or so of nasal b12! Handley doesn’t mention ALA for some reason, though he did do the worthless RNA drops, didn’t he?

I think Kirby looks normal. I also think he lies through his teeth about what he knows, that’s what I think. I think he’s being paid quite a bit for what he’s doing and I think he won’t be telling who’s paying him and how much.

Do you think that Kirby has good self-esteem? I think he has too much.
Kev
April 16th, 2006
05:51:30

“I met Kirby last year. He seemed normal to me.”

He is normal John. He’s also apparently gay. The two things aren’t exclusive.

“Now can I have your opinion of pending psychologists who want to send pictures of their groins to people?”

Could you show me an example of where a pending psychologist has said that to you?

“If I were invited into someoneâ€™s home, I think theyâ€™d be happy to know I donâ€™t consider perversions to be normal.”

Now I’m confused – you just said a gay man you met last year seemed normal. Now you’re saying people would be glad you’re not in favour of ‘perversion’. So which is it John? Are gay people normal or perverts?
John Best
April 16th, 2006
11:59:04

Kevin;
Were you with him in the biblical way? Or did you just decide that because he had something to do with gay rights?
Kev
April 16th, 2006
12:19:28

“Were you with him in the biblical way?”

Now now John, no indulging your fantasies on here please :o)

“Or did you just decide that because he had something to do with gay rights?”

I’ll answer that as soon as you answer my questions:

Could you show me an example of where a pending psychologist has said that to you?

And:

Are gay people normal or perverts?
John Best
April 16th, 2006
12:48:00

David;
What kind of trouble am I in? Will you be sending pictures of your groin to my kids? How can it be defammatory when all I did was to use the neurodiverse technique of putting your words someplace else and commenting on them? That practice is “business as usual” for you folks. It’s not like I made a personal Email public which we all know is unethical. Do pending psychologists have ethics or is that something you’re not required to subscribe to until they drop the “pending”?
I don’t need to visit your daughter to discuss how to help her rid herself of mercury. I don’t know if we have any rescue angels in Finland so you can consult with me via Email if you want to help her. Do you think Jesus is happy today watching children rise from the tomb of autism? Happy Easter!
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 16th, 2006
13:50:17

JBJr: “David;
What kind of trouble am I in?”

Legal.

“Will you be sending pictures of your groin to my kids?”

Fuck off, don’t be stupid! Nobody gets pics of them, as you very well know.

“How can it be defammatory when all I did was to use the neurodiverse technique of putting your words someplace else and commenting on them?”

I had a lawyer look at the posting. It contravenes legislation in the criminal code in New Hampshire. You are really treading on thin ice now.

“That practice is ‘business as usual’ for you folks.”

Incorrect and you know it…. it is for you, though.

“Itâ€™s not like I made a personal Email public which we all know is unethical.”

You do defamation, JBJr, you don’t care who you hurt or why.

“Do pending psychologists have ethics or is that something youâ€™re not required to subscribe to until they drop the â€œpendingâ€?”

I’m qualified as a psychologist already… I’ve actually explained this to you at least twice before. Your inability to remember it suggests that you are not exactly the sharpest tool in teh box.

“I donâ€™t need to visit your daughter to discuss how to help her rid herself of mercury.”

No, you don’t. She’s not mercury-poisoned.

“I donâ€™t know if we have any rescue angels in Finland so you can consult with me via Email if you want to help her.”

Thankfully, you have none. The Finnish government would oust the lot of them.

“Do you think Jesus is happy today watching children rise from the tomb of autism? Happy Easter!”

I’m an atheist. I cannot possibly believe in any god believed in by you.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
14:52:29

David;

â€œHow can it be defammatory when all I did was to use the neurodiverse technique of putting your words someplace else and commenting on them?â€

I had a lawyer look at the posting. It contravenes legislation in the criminal code in New Hampshire. You are really treading on thin ice now.

Gee David, how would this sit for Mrs Seidel who does the same thing much more frequently than I do?

â€œItâ€™s not like I made a personal Email public which we all know is unethical.â€

You do defamation, JBJr, you donâ€™t care who you hurt or why.

Doesn’t this apply to Mrs Seidel and to Kevin? Isn’t what’s good for the goose good for the gander? Would you like me to send you a crying towel?
Kev
April 16th, 2006
16:20:37

“Doesnâ€™t this apply to Mrs Seidel and to Kevin? Isnâ€™t whatâ€™s good for the goose good for the gander? Would you like me to send you a crying towel?”

Ah, karma…gotta love it :o)

See John – here’s the thing: I make sure that everything I say about you is verifiable. In fact, everything I say about anyone I can provide a quote for. You, on the other hand simply make stuff up.

Neither David, nor anyone else come to that, has said they would be sending pictures of any part of their anatomy to either you, nor your kids. You made this up. Unless of course you can provide a source for that quote?

I don’t think we’re going to get a good answer to this question so lets assume you continue to be a bigot in such matters and move on.

Johnâ€™s belief that as an adult male, fist fighting with his eight year old autistic son is a sign of good parenting.

John has stated that teaching his autistic son (who I believe is eight but could be wrong) to fight, to punch, to block punches is a good idea. he has also admitted to hitting his child at least once as a punishment for some transgresion his child committed.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
16:48:19

Kevin;

Anonymous said…
By the way David Andrews was wondering if you wanted a picture of his (I shall use your phrase) “pending testicles”. You really are sick John.

5:58 AM

Does that sound familiar, Kev? Of course, you can see the neurodiverse idiot who posted it didn’t reveal his or her name but did so later claim to be anonymouse which doesn’t help much for identification. However, Andrews admitted to knowing this person and you can go look it all up on my blog if you like.
Wouldn’t you teach your son how to fight, Kevin? What if it was in his genes to be the next Cassius Clay or Stan Jonathan? Have you ever been in a fistfight? Boxing is great exercise.
Kev
April 16th, 2006
17:02:34

So you’re admitting that David never actually said what you claimed he did? Thanks for that John :o)

“Wouldnâ€™t you teach your son how to fight, Kevin? What if it was in his genes to be the next Cassius Clay or Stan Jonathan? Have you ever been in a fistfight? Boxing is great exercise.”

There’s a world of difference between teaching someone to box (or Judo, karate, Tae Kwondo etc) than basically fighting with your son.

I used to play Rugby fairly seriously so I’ve been in fair share of physicality but what you’re talking about is not sport, competition or exercise. Unless of course you send your kids to a trainer?
John Best
April 16th, 2006
18:03:12

Kevin;
Why would I send my kids to a trainer when I can teach them myself?
You see for yourself that one of David’s friends relayed his thoughts. :o)
BTW Kev, can you show me where i said all Muslims were terrorists? Maybe you want to retract your statement about making things up.
Kassiane
April 16th, 2006
19:02:54

You know, a parent teaching a kid to fight totally blurs the parent-child relationship. How is the child supposed to know when it is and is not acceptable to hit the parent? This is why the gods invented trainers.

Some day, Mr Best, your son will be bigger than you, faster than you, and stronger than you. And he will still be autistic. And he will see no need to hold back when he hits, especially after all the abuse he was subjected to.

He looks forward to that day as much as I do. Autistic kids rising from the tomb of abusive homes, what a beautiful thing. I fear your tomb of ignorance is not going anywhere, sadly.

It would suck to be a figure of pity. That’s what you are, Mr. Best. I am significantly younger than you, autistic, and FEEL SORRY FOR YOU. Your way of being sucks far more than mine ever could.
Kev
April 16th, 2006
19:23:56

“You see for yourself that one of Davidâ€™s friends relayed his thoughts. :o)”

No John, what I see is someone who isn’t David relaying their own thoughts. I then further see you attributing those thoughts to David.

“BTW Kev, can you show me where i said all Muslims were terrorists?”

I believe what I actually said was that to you the words ‘muslim’ and ‘terrorist’ were interchangable. You implied that I was saying you thought all Muslims were terrorists. Funny how you made that leap isn’t it?

Sure, here we have an example of you referring to Muslim terrorists. Not terrorists, but Muslim terrorists.:

“*Muslim terrorists* who fly planes into tall buildings have a different set of beliefs than others. Your neurodiverse pals who sneeringly refer to people who try to help children as “curebies” and go to extreme measures in attempts to discredit those people are in the same class.”

Awares

And here we have an example of you referring to terrorists as people who ‘shout for Allah’:

“You spout your nonsense in much the same way that terrorists shout for Allah before they blow things up with bombs strapped to themselves.”

Awares

“Maybe you want to retract your statement about making things up.”

Where did I make things up John? You seem to have made up that I said in this thread you thought all Muslims were terrorists.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
20:03:08

Kassiane;
You can’t pay attention to anything, can you. My son won’t always be autistic. When we get rid of the mercury, he’ll be normal. He’ll thank me for teaching him how to fight when somebody challenges him and he beats their ass. Trainers are for kids with lousy fathers who don’t know how to teach them anything.
Were you raised by hippies?
John Best
April 16th, 2006
20:05:35

Kevin;
It was Muslim terrorists who flew the planes into the WTC. You should pay closer attention to the news.
Kev
April 16th, 2006
20:20:20

“It was Muslim terrorists who flew the planes into the WTC.”

Who said it wasn’t John? I was referring to how you used the words ‘muslim’ and ‘terrorist’ interchangably. Let me remind you of your words once more:

“...the same way that terrorists shout for Allah”

Notice you don’t say ‘terrorists who shout for Allah’ or even ‘terrorists that are muslims’ but you equate terrorism to shouting for Allah.
Kassiane
April 16th, 2006
20:55:56

PROOF John. PROOF.

Where is your real PROOF your son won’t still be autistic?

Oh wait. You have none.

I know more chelated kids than you do, I’d wager. None of them are cured. One is quite severe. And can fight both his parents, without being taught.

You’re in for a nasty surprise when you come to grips with reality and have to go back and apologize to all the people you insulted.

Time for you to PAY ATTENTION. My attention is FINE. You’re just acting on delusions. Better autistic than delusional.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
22:17:06

Kevin;
Give it a rest. I don’t have anything against Muslims. It just so happens it’s extremists from that faith who are doing most of the terrorism these days.
Kassiane;
Not chelating kids who have been poisoned by mercury is child abuse. Only a moron would not try to remove the poison that caused such a horrible existence for their child. We know it won’t work for everyone but you can’t know that until you try. You won’t find me apologizing to any dopes here who defend the drug companies whose negligence harmed my kid and millions of others. Autism sucks Kassiane. Not trying to cure it is cruel and sadistic.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 16th, 2006
22:40:28

JBJr: “Gee David, how would this sit for Mrs Seidel who does the same thing much more frequently than I do?”

Um… because Mrs S does not go in for defamation or for charachter assassination, like you do. She actually presents facts. Ever heard of facts, JBJr? A fact is one of those things that can be backed up clearly with evidence. A long way off what you do, which is in fact to present supposition, backed up by unfounded belief, in a manner most likely designed to cause offence to anyone reading/hearing it.

“Doesnâ€™t this apply to Mrs Seidel and to Kevin? Isnâ€™t whatâ€™s good for the goose good for the gander? Would you like me to send you a crying towel?”

Because Kevin here and Mrs S do not do what you do, then no… the rule of conduct that you consistently keep breaking is not being broken. They act in a manner which is totally different from yours. As anyone can see from this blog, Mrs S’s blog and your blog. As for what’s good for goose and therefore also for gander, that doesn’t work when comparing different species, does it? Lenny’s autism apples and autism oranges, remember?

Oh, and I don’t need crying towels. Last thing I need.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 16th, 2006
22:53:32

Prometheus: “These children were not missed, John, they were simply called something else until many years after Leo Kannerâ€™s paper was published.”

In actual fact, I was one of those children… that practice of calling it childhood schizophrenia went on until the 70s and 80s in some places.
Kev
April 16th, 2006
22:58:57

“Give it a rest. I donâ€™t have anything against Muslims.”

Bull. You just hate having your nasty little prejudice exposed for all to see.

“It just so happens itâ€™s extremists from that faith who are doing most of the terrorism these days.”

I suppose if you take an America-centric view of the world that may seem to be true. Believe it or not John my country suffered wave after wave of religious/nationalistic terrorism that was partly funded by American contributions. I don’t recall ever banging on about ‘Christian terrrorists’ or ‘American terrorists’. This is because, like the vast majority of people, I can see beyond one small group of idiots. The only people that can’t are other small groups of idiots.
John Best
April 16th, 2006
23:52:59

David;
I guess the character assassination is only evident to you when it’s being done to you. That is all that Seidel does. She uses character assassination all the time. Then dopes like you tell her she’s done a great job. Sorry Dave but plucking quotes from all over the internet like you people do, including personal Emails, is a lowlife tactic. I only do it to give you jackasses a taste of your own medicine. I would never write a serious piece that included such ridiculous crap. Isn’t it obvious to you knuckleheads that everything in my blog is just a parody of how foolish you all are? You all have made yourselves look like real idiots by coming there to insult me. You, David, have made yourself look like the biggest jackass of all and you have your friend anonimouse to thank for it along with your moronic insults hurled at decent people on this blog.
Seidel thinks she’s intelligent with her yellow journalism. You yokels don’t know any better than to look up to her because you’re all too dumb to write anything decent. I just put her in her place with the liars from the medical profession and Pharma. Kev’s blog here is just a place for ND’s to gang up on sane parents who can’t believe that people like you actually exist. It’s all nonsense to anyone with half a brain. Ranting against curing a nightmare like autism does not have words to describe the idiocy of it.
So, you’re right Dave, I say lots of things just to piss you all off. While I’m doing that, you’re helping me point out to anyone interested how ridiculous you all are. Thank you.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 16th, 2006
23:58:17

JBJr: “So, youâ€™re right Dave, I say lots of things just to piss you all off. While Iâ€™m doing that, youâ€™re helping me point out to anyone interested how ridiculous you all are. Thank you.”

Welcome.

Been very interesting watching you prove exactly how much of a total bastard you like to be. It’s not as if you fight against your natural tendency to be as nasty as possible to anyone, is it?
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 17th, 2006
00:05:47

JBJr: “You, David, have made yourself look like the biggest jackass of all and you have your friend anonimouse to thank for it along with your moronic insults hurled at decent people on this blog.”

Interesting.

You can’t read, can you?

“*your friend anonimouse*” – I don’t know who anonimouse is! I do know who Any Mouse is… two different people.

If you were as intelligent as you keep protesting me not to be, you’d have spotted that, wouldn’t you?

Not very clever, JBJr. You’re not very clever. Annoying, yes. Clever… come back in a few centuries, and we’ll see if you’ve developed any thinking skills by then, alright?
The Enola Gay
April 17th, 2006
00:11:36

Is it just me or is this really creepy?
“Do you think Jesus is happy today watching children rise from the tomb of autism? ”

I wonder if John thinks that Abubakar is in heaven with Jesus?

I know that Abubakar would still be here on earth if it weren’t for evil and stupid men and women, the Defeat Autism Now doctors and their allies pushing chelation for autism based on flawed Doctor’s Data Inc. lab results and even more flawed hypotheses.

If you mercury parents think you are going to take your DDI type lab reports into a court of law and “prove” anything but the fact that you have been played for the biggest fools ever… think again.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 17th, 2006
00:24:27

TEG: “Is it just me or is this really creepy?”

It’s him.

” (quoting JBJr ) ‘Do you think Jesus is happy today watching children rise from the tomb of autism?’ ”

Yeh… I’m sure that – in my life – I have probably met satanists… whoever they were (and I have no way of knowing), they have all been much nicer people that JBJr can possibly even hope to be.

“I wonder if John thinks that Abubakar is in heaven with Jesus?”

Not with any Jesus that the more human Christians would believe in, I would dare to venture.
Kassiane
April 17th, 2006
00:36:31

Mr Best,
You’re dumber than I thought if you think you can comment on the quality of existance of autistic people WHEN YOU AREN’T ONE.

Show me a cured kid. Oh wait. They don’t exist.

Hitting children is abusing them. Waking them at all hours to chelate them is abusing them. Hell, if they don’t have poisoning as demonstrated by a REAL DOCTOR with a VALID TEST, chelating at ALL is abuse. You could have your children taken away from you, which would be better for them. No one should resent their kids the way you resent yours. Causes terrible self esteem problems and suicidality later.

Proof. Put up or shut up. Not whining and saying I don’t pay attention-I pay better attention than you know how- REAL PROOF. The kind that stands up to scientific scrutiny.
John Best
April 17th, 2006
00:39:12

David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) : 1 hour, 35 minutes ago

JBJr: â€œSo, youâ€™re right Dave, I say lots of things just to piss you all off. While Iâ€™m doing that, youâ€™re helping me point out to anyone interested how ridiculous you all are. Thank you.â€

Welcome.

Been very interesting watching you prove exactly how much of a total bastard you like to be. Itâ€™s not as if you fight against your natural tendency to be as nasty as possible to anyone, is it?

You are an enemy of poisoned children who need help. It’s not personal.
Kev
April 17th, 2006
01:14:03

“Sorry Dave but plucking quotes from all over the internet like you people do, including personal Emails, is a lowlife tactic.”

Crying about it because you’re being held to account for something you said is just about your level John :o)

“Isnâ€™t it obvious to you knuckleheads that everything in my blog is just a parody of how foolish you all are?”

No. Its not. I don’t think anyone finds your site to be a parody of anything. It is what it is – unadulterated John best Jr.

“I just put her in her place with the liars from the medical profession and Pharma.”

LOL I must’ve missed that one John. Are you still referring to that one letter you got published? You are aren’t you? I suggest you print it off and pin it up somewhere (assuming you haven’t already)

“Kevâ€™s blog here is just a place for NDâ€™s to gang up on sane parents who canâ€™t believe that people like you actually exist.”

Sane parents who don’t believe David exists? You’re saying it takes sanity to believe that someone you’re having a conversation with doesn’t exist?

“So, youâ€™re right Dave, I say lots of things just to piss you all off. While Iâ€™m doing that, youâ€™re helping me point out to anyone interested how ridiculous you all are. Thank you.”

Oh no John, thank you :o)

Thank you for this and for this and thank you for your quote on the Rescue Angel program: “I donâ€™t mind helping kids who have idiots for parents and I think most other rescue angels feel the same way.” which I intend to make full use of at every available opportunity.

Thank you for first stating that all autism was mercury poisoning, invented by Eli Lilly in 1931 and then admitting there was actually such a thing called genetic autism which autistic people prior to 1931 had.

Thank you for admitting you were wrong about there being no autism in China before 1999.

Thank you for inferring you would happily horsewhip your own wife if she wrote something akin to Kathleen.

Thank you for admitting that you feel Lisa Randall deserved the calls she got harassing her at her home.

So what have we learned here John?

About you? Nothing new. You are a fool. You moved well past ignorance a long time ago and chose purposeful, deliberate ignorance. You desire to be misinformed. There are a number of reasons why this is so in my opinion:

1) You are incredibly stupid. Anyone who thinks its acceptable to horsewhip women or harass women in their own homes qualifies immediately for this. You also automatically qualify as a coward.

2) You are chasing a big pay day. Its my opinion that you don’t give a fig for the well being or future of your autistic son. I believe you see him as a day to day inconvenience but one who has the potential to net you a big wad of cash.

3) Its just the sort of person you are. As oppose to autistic people, or scientists, some of whom have been responsible for ground breaking thinking, you are a throwback. The rest of us evolved the ability to be perceptive and consider another’s viewpoint some time ago John. We evolved something totally alien to you – compassion. We don’t see our kids or ourselves as liabilities, or drains on society. We see them as people.

You can be summed up in one word. Its probably the worst word I can think of to describe another human being as it represents everything negative about us as a species. This word is used to describe racists which I suspect you are. Its used to describe the deliberately ignorant, which you definitely are. Its used to describe the homophobes of the pre-1950’s West. It’s used to define those who cannot abide the fact that others wish to co-exist in a different way but in the same place.

You are intolerant.

This thread is closed. Your ban is back in effect.