Autism Blog - Green Our Vaccines – the reality

04 Jun 2008

Author: Kev
Comments: 120

Green Our Vaccines – the reality

Contrary to the press reports and the frenzied claims of Jenny McCarthy of rally participants numbering between 8 to 10,000 it seems according to police who accompanied the rally that there were between 500 – 1,000 participants. I cannot source that quote, for which I am sorry. I hope to be able to source it very soon but where I got it from is not available just yet.

The above photo was taken at 09:15. The below photo was taken at the end of the rally.

It certainly doesn’t seem to be a very imposing crowd.

People who watched the start of the rally via webcams (my ISP decided to go down today of all days) say that a very loose straggly crowd walking very slowly took about 20 mins to pass a fixed point.

Someone else attending the rally said (again, in confidence):

There were about 500 people at the rally today, about half of whom were children. The press conference lasted for about an hour and a half. The speakers were, in order: Dr. Jay Gordon, Boyd Haley, Dr. Jerry Kartzinel, RFK Jr., Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy. RFK Jr. spoke at length about the science disproving a link between vaccines and autism. He said that all that science is paid for by the pharmaceutical industry and that top vaccine advocates such as Renee Jenkins and Paul Offit are in the pockets of these companies.

Other notables in the crowd included JB Handley, Scott and Laura Bono, the Hazlehursts and Jim Moody.

Update: seems the media are cottoning on to the low turnout. As noted by Catherina in the comments, News Channel 10 say:

Hundreds rally against child vaccinations

Seems like the saw through the pretence this wasn’t an anti-vaccine rally too. Well done them.

Apparently, the stupidest quote of the day comes from Jim Carrey:

If fire engines were running over people on the way to a fire, we wouldn’t say there shouldn’t be fire engines. We would ask the fire engines to slow down. That’s our message to the CDC - that we need to slow down the vaccination schedule.

There you have it, fire engines should slow down on their way to a fire. Jim Carrey’s other invaluable contribution was apparently taunting ‘big pharma’ for not finding a cure for autism whilst at the same time:

finding cures for “that great scourge restless legs syndrome, also known as lazy ass disease.”

Thats the same ‘lazy ass syndrome’ that is associated with pregnancy, varicose vein or venous reflux, folate deficiency, sleep apnea, uremia, diabetes, thyroid disease, peripheral neuropathy, Parkinson’s disease and certain auto-immune disorders such as Sjögren’s syndrome, celiac disease, and rheumatoid arthritis.

Oh and ADHD of course. The same ADHD that is included on the front page blurb of Groups Jenny McCarthy is on the board of.

Update II: If anyone would like to pass on Carrey’s kind words to the RLS community, you can do that at their website.

Later on Carrey apparently asked the rhetorical question ‘how stupid do you think we are‘. Heh.

Here is Jim Carrey’s quotes in the full context of his speech, courtesy of Autism News Beat – once again, venturing into the heart of woo-land.

Green Our Vaccines Coverage Elsewhere

Me
Kristina
PalMD
Kristina (again)
Ginny Hughes
Mike Stanton
Orac
Liz Ditz
Orac (again)
and again!
and again
Kristina (once more)
Stifled Mind
Sharon
Seeing Beauty
S.L.
S.L. (again)
Mike Stanton (again)
Steve
Clotted Cognition

Link to this post?

If you want to reference this post in your site, use the code below to link to me from your website.

<a href="http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/06/green-our-vaccines-the-reality/">Green Our Vaccines – the reality</a>

Comments

120 Responses to “Green Our Vaccines – the reality”

Ms. Clark
June 4th, 2008
23:50:54

Listening to Jim Carrey read his speech word for word off a sheet of paper made me think he’s a good actor, that he was doing an excellent imitation of a really dumb antivaccine extremist. It was interesting, I noted in watching a video that the crowd whooped, applauded and screamed approval at his “lazy ass disease” remark, but when he said that he wasn’t really antivaccine, that he thought vaccines were beneficial, the audience was quiet. No sign of approval for that statement.
Jon
June 4th, 2008
23:58:54

By the way, while exercise may help restless leg syndrome, there are also reports that ‘excessive’ exercise can aggravate it.
kristina
June 5th, 2008
01:11:01

The stupid is really on fire (borrowing Orac’s phrase).
Beau
June 5th, 2008
03:37:13

After that piece of stupid that came out of Jim Carrey’s mouth, I’ve decided that I’m not going to support him from now on.
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
04:01:26

Goes to show that they have no knowledge and regard for anything other than what they believe in (which is Vaccine causes Autism). It is funny to see how the focus has moved from Thiomersol to the number of shots kids are getting. If it is not one thing it is another.
His comments show something I already knew…Ignorance knows no boundaries and ignorance combined with arrogance is the ultimate concrete wall…you can bang your head till it bleeds but it won’t budge.
I don’t know what it would take to have a jolt back to reality. The reason anti-vaccine people can say natural disease is better than vaccine, or vaccine is poison and blah blah…is infact due to what vaccines have done…vaccines have eradicated and taken over the diseases of past and many of these parents have never seen an outbreak or actual cases of these disease…..so here ignorance is bliss…When you don’t know something, its easy to be against that thing. So since we don’t have those diseases they think we don;t need vaccine….yet the reality is once you break the barrier of vaccine around a community, all it takes is one weak spot and than you are facing the unthinkable.
Vaccines are useless only b/c they have done what we wanted them to do but we cant just discard them because if they are not here, we will go back to age of 1920s

In 1920, the United States had 469,924 measles cases and 7,575 deaths due to measles. From 1958 to 1962, the United States had an average of 503,282 cases and 432 deaths each year

[Http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih1/diseases/activities/activity5_measles-database.htm ]

1 life lost to a preventable cause is too much let alone over 7000.
enough said.
Change the Schedule!
June 5th, 2008
04:10:39

[...] on the Green Our Vaccines here. Tags: abc, asd, asperger, autism, celebrities, children, Genetics, Health, jenny mccarthy, jim [...]
Change the Schedule!
June 5th, 2008
04:10:39

[...] on the Green Our Vaccines here. Tags: abc, asd, asperger, autism, celebrities, children, Genetics, Health, jenny mccarthy, jim [...]
Melody
June 5th, 2008
04:58:08

He seriously said that about restless legs syndrome? Gee, when I was about 15 and they started showing ads for a medication for it, I thought at first that it was just another name for stimming with one’s leg, but a quick Internet search informed me otherwise.

Hey, maybe he should borrow Jenny’s “Google PhD” next time before he makes fun of people’s medical conditions.
Ms. Clark
June 5th, 2008
05:01:38

Restless legs is more than a minor irritation, it keeps people from sleeping. Jimbo’s comment made me wonder if he listened to all the Rush Limbaugh shows where Limbaugh also mocked restless legs sydrome.
Catherina
June 5th, 2008
09:37:10

http://www.newschannel10.com/G.....?S=8433207

says “hundreds”
momanabanana
June 5th, 2008
13:28:24

You have to LIVE the reality of having your child go from perfectly normal development to a speechless, withdrawn being within days of receiving a course of vaccines to understand that the vaccines were the cause. If you don’t live it… suffer the loss, the shock, the desperation, with your own senses, then you can’t make the connection.
The author and commentators who avoid the real issue and grab on to numbers in attendance (5,000 registered rally participants)and Jim’s comments about RLS (nothing more than a comic relief given the setting) obviously have not suffered this experience. I hope you never do.

I wonder, why do you have such a blind faith in the establishment.. the CDC, FDA, AAP, etc.? Why would you believe bureaucrats over parents… people without any hidden agendas, who want to help their children and are trying to have the truth be known and understood so others don’t go through their same suffering?

These people are not anti-vaccine. They understand vaccines are necessary, but they KNOW that there is a population of children who are susceptible to the toxins in vaccines. They know because they’ve lived the experience.

Yes, mercury was the most prevalent and obvious, but there are also aluminum, 2-phenoxyethanol, and countless other neurotoxins that many children simply can not handle at such a young age. There are simply too many vaccines given too soon in life for these kids.
Sharon
June 5th, 2008
14:34:10

Jim “immunology expert” Carey, after making that ridiculous statement about fire engines said,
“Autism is on every street, in every town.
It’s a warning from the universe that there is a serious imbalance in our environment, that immediate change must be made.
...
It’s the canary in the coal mine.”

Wow, nice way to characterise people like my child there Jim. My son’s very existence, is so unnatural and wrong, that it serves as a warning from the universe!
How can he justify making such irrational, nonsensical and bigoted judgements about people.
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
14:41:07

Similarly I hope no parent ever lives the reality, the shock, the grief, the pain, the horror of losing a living healthy happy child to any of these diseases. You won’t even know till you have lived it or seen it happen and i hope those who unvaccinate never have to witness a child’s loss. Given the choice I don;t know many parents who would want a child lost for ever and buried beneath tons of dirt so PICK your battles wisely. Its not trusting the establishment because establishment has vaccinated children as well mind you. They might be really horirble to put their own kids through the poison they are making for our kids, they must be horrible parents to expose their kids to the conspiracy toxins….makes me want to think, wow they really know thier kid will have autism or other problesm with vaccine and yet they do it, they have got to know because they are promoting and pushing them…so yes i believe it is s HUGE HUGE plan against all kids in US to have all of them sick in next century. OMG I can’t even believe some one in their sane mind can think this is true and the reason we have so many behavior problems and rise in autism is because establishment is slowly posioning ours and their kids….Seriously???
The fact that your kid is still alive despite of so many organisms that can kill him and her is because of vaccines and all the responsible parents who have vaccinated and formed a barrier for all of us.
Please read labels on your hand creams, face creams, cosmetics, tooth paste, soaps, frozen foods and then tell me you understand all the ingredients and can say that none of them can cause any toxic effects on your body in anyway can can’t cross skin and tissue to get to your blood stream. e.g polyethylene glycol they scream about in vaccine is widely used in personal care products and toothpaste [phrma]
CDC and FDA is not a bunch of beaurocrates, they are people who have extensive education and back ground in research and medicine and work on vaccines in addition to millions of other things. In underimmunized populations of the world, 600,000 children die from pertussis and almost one million die from measles each year. The biggest cause of the 1989-1991 measles epidemic in the U.S. was failure to vaccinate preschool children on time. This measles epidemic was responsible for 55,000 cases and more than 120 deaths. Nearly half of those deaths were in children under age five, most of whom had not been immunized.

[http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/facts.htm]

In 1967 when WHO started small pox vaccination there were 10-15 million small pox cases a year world wide and over 2 million deaths each year. Do we want something like that back, or do we want to be at that stage where we loose so many people and than start vaccinating again. May be if we see the horror of a disease and how it kills without distingushing young and old we will be more careful criticising one thing that is saving our kids from being victims of internationally traveling organisms.
Joseph
June 5th, 2008
15:04:56

I wonder, why do you have such a blind faith in the establishment.. the CDC, FDA, AAP, etc.? Why would you believe bureaucrats over parents

First of all, we ARE parents. Second, we tend to believe the better data. It doesn’t have much to do with personalities or authority.
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
15:13:19

Amen Joseph
momanabanana
June 5th, 2008
15:18:02

Again, this group is NOT antivaccine… no one is arguing the need and effectiveness of vaccines. No one is calling for an end to vaccinations.

There is a SUSCEPTIBILITY group of children who are suffering vaccine injury. Vaccines are NOT the only cause of autism, they are a major cause which builds up the child’s toxic load. We don’t currently have a way to identify which children are susceptible, so ofcourse people are going to vaccinate on schedule… they don’t know any better.

The message is not “do away with vaccines”... the message is “slow down the schedule and clean up some of the toxins” so that these children are not hurt. In the meantime, let’s develop a test to see which kids can handle the vaccines and which can not.

“Why are they given so close together and so soon?” this is the issue that needs to be analyzed.

This is not a problem started because of a “conspiracy”... this is a problem started out of ignorance… a lack of understanding, that has lead to a generation of children being called the “autism generation”. Yes there are very intelligent people in all of the agencies, and yes, they are human, not infallible. In the scientific process, problems/failures should lead to questioning, further research, and finally, solutions. We must not assume that current medical practices are infallible.

This whole issue is about identifying which children are less able to handle the toxins in vaccines and then managing their vaccine schedules accordingly. Why can’t we err on the side of safety when it comes to these thousands of children?
Should we really consider them collateral damage?

What about Dr. Healy’s (former NIH director)admission that the CDC made a conscious decision not to pursue the possibility of susceptibility groups back in 2004? How can this be ignored?

There is an entire population of children who’s immune/nervous systems are not able to handle the current vaccine schedule. This can not be ignored.
momanabanana
June 5th, 2008
15:20:00

Joseph, better data sponsored by pharmaceutical companies?
Joseph
June 5th, 2008
15:35:41

No one is calling for an end to vaccinations.

Not exactly true, as demonstrated by various statements made by people in EOHarm and other groups.

Vaccines are NOT the only cause of autism, they are a major cause which builds up the child’s toxic load.

This statement is simply not supported by anything resembling good scientific evidence.

Unsubstantiated assertions are not going to impress anyone here, FYI.

“Why are they given so close together and so soon?” this is the issue that needs to be analyzed.

Yeah, because the CDC’s schedule is the way it is just for the heck of it.

In the scientific process, problems/failures should lead to questioning, further research, and finally, solutions. We must not assume that current medical practices are infallible.

There has been research. It’s necessary to recognize that the result of research can be ‘NO’, at which point you move on. If you won’t accept anything other than ‘YES’, it obviously means that you only care about research as a potential means to confirm what you’ve already decided is true. Furthermore, no one is assuming that medical practices are infallible.

There is an entire population of children who’s immune/nervous systems are not able to handle the current vaccine schedule.

Again, totally unsubstantiated.
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
15:43:18

Because that is the age they are most vulnerable….like the 5 month old in San diego who was in hospital for 5 days after the case of measles child who was unvaccinated returned from another switzerland who has only 6 diseases to protect from on their schedule before age 11. Not the best covered schedule in my opinion making it so easy for unvaccinated peopel to get sick and bring it back to US.

http://www.euvac.net/graphics/.....rland.html

And this 8 year old unvaccinated infected more kids one of which was a 5 month old and ended up in ER because 5 month old even having moms antibodies against measles are still in danger….

You can wait for them to grow up and have enough immunity and hope they never get sick during that time or you can protect them as early as possible because the younger the immune system the mor eimmature it is the easier for a disease to get in and possibly kill or damage for life.
Jenny didn;t name 10 vaccines with Thio still in them.
Thio was not taken out because it caused autism, it was taken out b/c there was better research and better options to have vaccine packed and preserved and make single dose vials.
To say pediatricians have done HARM??? preaching from her pulpit of arrogance and ignorance saying my child HAD autism…why doesnt she preach what cured that autism and help other parents inher shoes?
What is independent research…..don’t got o CDC but just go to the WHO recommended websites and read papers on this topic. But my problem is any doctos or resreach that would say anything contrary to what the popular belief of this group is, is going to be labelled Pharma sponsored, Govt Sponsered, and all those things. That physician or researcher will be shunned b/c he didnt sunstantiate what was being said…so what is independent research…one that agrees with the point of view???

Because there is plenty of work out there saying what is being claimed is nothing but thoery and there is no truth to it.
You want to have kids screened than rally for that, don’t preech too many too soon, because an overwhelming majority of kids do juts fine with vaccines and the number and timing, may be your campaign needs a different purpose and direction rather than putting all other kids at risk, ask for pretesting and screening if that is what you claim is the problem….than we will see where it goes….because i have no doubt in my mind if the screening starts than something else will be an issue. When she says no way in hell not another childof mine, she is telling every one who listens to her…no vaccines…to me that is antivaccine not slow down vaccine….she can say one thing here oh yeah vaccines save lives, than say no way not another child of mine, than say too many too soon, what is the message here?
Joseph
June 5th, 2008
15:47:42

Joseph, better data sponsored by pharmaceutical companies?

That’s a complete misrepresentation of the science that doesn’t support your views. This kind of statement tells me you do buy into the Big Conspiracy.

Give me an example of a paper related to autism and vaccines that was demonstrably sponsored by pharmaceutical companies.

How about this one? Thompson et al. (2007) “Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years.” In what way was this sponsored by pharmaceutical companies? Why did SafeMinds participate in this study if it was?

Of all thimerosal-autims studies in existence, Thompson et al. (2007) is the most thorough and methodologically sound study, BTW. It would be extremely difficult to top it.

What about Berman et al. (2007) which failed to replicate Hornig et al.? That was a study of the MIND Institute.
Dawn Crim
June 5th, 2008
15:55:45

It goes to show you that ignorance comes in all shapes and sizes. My children and I are all victims of vaccine injury – hearing loss, vision loss, brain damage, etc. etc. etc. Until people wake up and get a clue as to how many have been truly affected people will continue to vaccinate their babies. FYI - there were 8,000 attendees at this rally. How do I know this? They had to preregister for the event. Please stop lying
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
16:07:38

Because that is the most vulnerabel age to get any of those diseases. you dont need protection against Hib once you are 5 or over b/c the risk is way too low. But you need tetanus protection all ur life and so does your child. You need purtussis protection all your life because most casesof purtussis in children under 2 half of them get them from mom and dad and half of them die.

Another example the 8 yr old unvaccinated child coming back from switzerland (whose vaccine schdule has been presented as a model many of anti vaccine people) what does he bring back…MEASLES…infection 11 more kids in pediatrician office, market where he went and a show. One of them a 5 year old who nearly died in hospital because he was too young to get a MMR shot and yet moms antibodies (natural antibodies) couldnt save him from going near death.

That one case in Federal court is a court decision there is not scientific prove that vaccine caused the mitochondrial defect to accelerate…that is a court order not a scinetific proof.

CDC schedule is not just for fun, it is not bron out of ignorance like you assume…what is born out of ignorance is her comment from her pulpit yesterday “pediatricians are doing HARM’ I love my duaghters pediat to death and she has been a life saver though she has also vaccinated my child, that was not harm that was saving her from getting terribly sick.
Doing HARM? What is harm? harm is what this attitude is going to do one day if this keeps going on. If the main concern is to screen kids than rally that, don’t rally green vaccine or too many too soon, because children are very resiliant they handle these vaccine and their number jsut fine. The comb vaccines draw the number of shots down to half, when you have to get 5 pricks, comb vacs pull it down to only 2 pricks. The only kids getting 8 shots at a time are those who want to catch up like the 8 year old in TIMES this week who nealry died of meneigitis and his antivaccine mom went in and got all her kids up to date and immunized.
If the agenda is screening than show it. For her to say No way no hell not another childof mine doesnt sound like Slow down to me. She can say oh vaccines have done good too and then say too many too soon and then say toxins and then say I wont vaccinate another one of mine ever….What is her message? May be people who follow them need to ask them how stupid you are and how long before you make up yor mind?
Independent study issue by Mr Carry…there are plenty of studies outside CDc and its website to show you the rsults that don’t match with these claims…it depends where you are looking for your information. I am sure any study that will say anything different will be labled pharma sponsored or Govt spy because nothing different from their agenda will be good enough to be admitted as valid.
Like i said Ignorance is bliss and Ignorance with arrogance is dangerous.
People who have proper education and knowledge are never ignorant, i am not sure i can say that about Mr and Mrs carry.
when you have injury you will hang on to anything that seems like an answer even though it is not the answer.
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
16:08:56

In my last post I meant a 5 month old in san diego not a 5 year old.
Tom
June 5th, 2008
16:09:15

Dawn said:
“Until people wake up and get a clue as to how many have been truly affected people will continue to vaccinate their babies.”

I thought this wasn’t an antivax rally?
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
16:19:22

lol TOM
Patrick
June 5th, 2008
16:46:41

Borrowing from some rather nice and famous ladies just a bit R-E-S-P-E-C-T that is what I do not see!

You know folks, trying to justify the rude behavior and denigration of not only autistic people but also those with RLS truly shows a lack of respect.

How can these people not be aware of the amount of apologizing going on in recent news? Some guy about inbreeding in a particular state, another about karma, bittergate, ransom notes.

Start getting this into your heads oh JnJ apologists, they aren’t paying enough Respect or Attention to the issues of those of us affected by other medical conditions, and in my opinion Neither are You!
Kev
June 5th, 2008
16:50:36

FYI - there were 8,000 attendees at this rally. How do I know this? They had to preregister for the event. Please stop lying

They may well have pre-registered but there is no way there were 8,000 people there. Thats the opinion of at least three people I’ve spoken to – one of whom got their estimate from a local cop managing the march. Look at the pictures for goodness sake!
lisa
June 5th, 2008
18:57:01

Does it really matter how many went? I was there. There are no photos that can show everyone anyways. There were close to 8,000 for sure. But who cares. If you know anything about autism.. many parents could not attend as many autistic children also have huge sensory disfunction. Meaning, they cannot tolerate large crowds, plane rides and the like. Also many of these parents are low on funds due to the out of pocket costs they incur trying to help there children. So the parents experiencing these hardships could not attend. Those are the ones that sent photos for actual attendees to bring and show how vaccines affected there children. Believe me the community of people is LARGE!
Kev
June 5th, 2008
19:07:57

Sorry Lisa, the independent people I asked – and the photo/video evidence – quite clearly show far, far less than 8,000 people.

And yes, I do know something about autism. My child is severely autistic. I just don’t buy into the vaccine stuff. I also don’t believe that the community you speak of is particularly large.

Further, I think that the group of people are headed by a woman (Jenny McCarthy) who is clearly anti-vaccine. On Larry King Live she said:

I am surely not going to tell anyone to vaccinate. But if I had another child, there’s no way in hell…....for my next kid—which I’m never going to have—there’s no way.

No ‘too many, too soon’ there.

I’m very glad that some of you enjoyed your day out yesterday but I want you to take away one thought here: no science has changed. There is still no decent science that shows vaccines cause autism. Its been over ten years now. Still nothing.

In the meantime, people such as yourselves are raising questions about vaccines that have no merit. Next time you read about a person being hospitalised from a vaccine preventable disease, I hope you think about what you did yesterday.
Najma Haider
June 5th, 2008
19:31:55

Further, I think that the group of people are headed by a woman (Jenny McCarthy) who is clearly anti-vaccine. On Larry King Live she said:

I am surely not going to tell anyone to vaccinate. But if I had another child, there’s no way in hell…....for my next kid—which I’m never going to have—there’s no way.

No ‘too many, too soon’ there.

My point exactly
She can say oh yeah vaccines have helped, and blah blah blah but her agenda is no vaccines. She didnt name the 10 vaccines that have thio still in them and she said why was murcury taken out…not because it has link to autisim but becasue researched showed how to have single dose vials that dont need murcury to preserve them. I will repeat Comb vaccines reduce the number of stick not increase them like she claimed. Only child having 8 shots in day will be th eone like the one featured in TIMES this week who nearly died of menigitis and his mom who was anti vaccine got all her kids vaccinated. Kids who are catching up might get 8 shots a day but if you are doing comb vaccines they dont get 8 sticks in a day.
The person who heads our office has 2 autistic children and yet he works in vaccines.
Jim Carrey can hope one day all these claims will be validated but he can only hope.
Autism Blog - Green our vaccines - the outreach effort | Left Brain/Right Brain
June 5th, 2008
20:32:25

[...] Team McCarrey were busy wowing the ‘hundreds’ of people at the Green our vaccines rally yesterday, one face was notably absent from [...]
cheryl k
June 5th, 2008
21:04:14

The author of this artical, obviously doesn’t have a child with autism. A child that after their vaccinations got real sick and then lost all words, skills and lived in a lost little world. I invite the author, who I assume is a male, since he also knows nothing about RLS to live at my house for a week, live with autism, then you will see why we want safe vaccines.
Kev
June 5th, 2008
21:16:15

The author of this article is in fact father to a child with severe autism. I invite cheryl k to try reading whats in front of her next time.
Ms. Clark
June 5th, 2008
21:24:29

I hope the Jenny McRally organizers will stop lying about how many people attended the rally. They said there would be 10,000. Then it was maybe 8,000, the reality shows more like somewhere between 800 and 1,500.

If they were confident in what their message was then why lie about constantly inflate the number of people who show up at these things?

For all the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by people to organize this shindig, and to transport people there, nothing will change. No one in charge of vaccine research cares what they think. From what I can tell most politicians are sick of the flaming nutjobs telling them about toxins in vaccines. In my opinion, this was just a big show for the megalomaniacs of autism. A chance to imagine that they are big shots again.

The antivaxers were not going to use “greened” vaccines anyway. Nothing has changed, except now there are a bunch of kids who feel more labeled as damaged and some who will grow up feeling like objects for their parents to exploit.
Tsu Dho Nimh
June 5th, 2008
21:29:00

You ask: ““Why are they given so close together and so soon?” this is the issue that needs to be analyzed.”

It has been analyzed. I have books from the 1960s that analyse what the best schedule for each vaccine is to get adequate immunity with the minimum of injections. I even have one from the 1700s that discusses the best scheduling for smallpox variolation (that’s using live smallpox vaccine!) based on the observations. And every time there is an advance in a vaccine, they re-analyze its schedule and do more testing.

The goal is to make as many babies, toddlers, and children as possible as immune as possible before they are likely to need the immunity. Right now, preliminary testing on acellular pertussis vaccine is analyzing whether it can provide adequate immunity if given at birth.

JABS FOR NEWBORNS! OH NOES! Oh yes, because in the case of pertussis, infants are at the highest risk of permanent damage or death even with modern medical care, so the vaccines have to be given early. The pertussis vaccinations have to be given often because not all immune systems mature at the same rate – it’s better to inoculate early and have full to partial immunity at 3 months with the remaining injections increasing the protection than to leave all infants 100% unprotected until 6 months.

Short of bringing up the child in a plastic bubble, you can’t prevent them from being exposed to these diseases. The recent measles epidemics in SanDiego and Tucson started with an unvaccinated individual who was infected in Switzerland and returned to the USA before they had symptoms.
Joseph
June 5th, 2008
21:36:08

The author of this artical, obviously doesn’t have a child with autism.

Kev, maybe you should consider a spam filter for comments like the above. They are frequent and exceedingly annoying.
Ms. Clark
June 5th, 2008
22:42:16

I wonder if anyone has contacted restless leg syndrome organizations to tell them the Jim Carrey called their pain, “lazy ass disease”?
Kev
June 5th, 2008
23:00:14

I’ve thought about it Joseph but it would require scripting of a level beyond me to account for all possible permutations.

An excellent idea Ms Clark – go here to do that :)
S.L.
June 6th, 2008
02:57:44

Is it just me—or has all of this seemed surreal? I just had a good laugh—I posted on this speech. Carrey quotes a “Dr. Burton Goldberg,” about autism being the canary in the coal mine. Funny…this guy is not a medical physician, he is a publisher. He received an honorary doctorate from some now defunct Integrative Medicine university (and I use that word loosely!). Wow…
brstpathdoc
June 6th, 2008
03:50:15

// A child that after their vaccinations got real sick and then lost all words, skills and lived in a lost little world. I invite the author, who I assume is a male, since he also knows nothing about RLS to live at my house for a week, live with autism, then you will see why we want safe vaccines.//

So what if the child had cherry PopTarts before the vaccines? Who’s to say it wasn’t the PopTarts that doomed the child to a “lost little world.” Same reasoning.

Perish the thought I emote on such matters, being a male and all. Oh, and a doc in the pocket of Big Pharma. Wait, I’m a pathologist. Crap, where’s my kick back?!?? You bastards!! Oh,and RLS. Don’t have much experience living with that. I do have some familiarity with restless third leg syndrome, though.

Please spare us the silly antivax canards. I, indeed, live in a house with autism every day (as does Kev). Funny, I actually enjoy spending time with my daughter. Imagine that.
Mary Parsons
June 6th, 2008
11:39:20

I have books from the 1960s that analyse what the best schedule for each vaccine is to get adequate immunity with the minimum of injections. I even have one from the 1700s that discusses the best scheduling for smallpox variolation…

Tsu Dho Nimh – they sound fascinating. If they aren’t confidential to your research, do you mind giving a citation for them, please? I’ve been looking through some C19th medical newsletters and I’m interested to track down various sources for things that come up there. Because it is extraordinary how the antivax stuff has cycled and recycled for so long.
Kev
June 6th, 2008
12:15:27

Here’s what a 10,000 person crowd looks like. And this. And this.

And here’s an 8,000 person crowd.

Please compare these to the AoA sourced image of the crowd. You can see the grass at the back of them for goodness sake.
Hawkes
June 6th, 2008
14:46:55

This is science? Staring at two pictures and concluding?

Picture one is the line up. The people were lined up to be no more than 40 feet across. This picture was taken from the front of the line, on the right hand side, that line stretches back to the left.

The second picture is from the press box, not the stage. Between the stage and the press box was about 100 feet, and it was packed with people.

I was there, I have no idea if there were 8000 people, but I can say for sure that there was more than 1000.
Liz Ditz
June 6th, 2008
18:01:59

kev: well done on the long-distance crowd analysis. I’ve looked at a lot of the photos—the crowd was rather thin.

Here’s Arthur Allen’s piece on the march.—some snippets

I spent a bright and lovely morning doing anthropology among the vaccine skeptics, an angry group who blame the government for their children’s medical and psychiatric conditions. The occasion was Wednesday’s “Green our Vaccines” rally, a march on Washington led by the the actor Jim Carrey and his photogenic girlfriend, Jenny McCarthy, the TV personality and mother of an autistic 6-year-old boy named Evan.

McCarthy, Carrey and an untold number of other people -– there were maybe 1,500 at the rally -– believe that something in vaccines causes autism. Science has laid to rest a theory blaming the measles-mumps-rubella shot, and the evidence also points away from the mercury-containing preservative, thimerosal. But Carrey and McCarthy have moved the goalposts. At Wednesday’s rally, the marchers chanted, “Too many, Too soon!” The new theory of the vaccine haters is that “too many” of these disease preventives somehow overwhelm the child’s immune system — a thesis there is no evidence to support.

[snip]

Over the decade I’ve reported on this issue, the believers have grown more and more entrenched in their convictions, to the point that it’s difficult to have a discussion because we’ve obviously been reading different material. Google University has many campuses and I’ve been attending a different one.

Blaming vaccines for autism is a small cottage industry backed by certain lawyers, alternative medicine practitioners and peddlers of dietary supplements that allegedly cure the damage done by vaccines. But whether their kids are getting better with such therapies or not, these parents’ convictions are unshaken.

go read the whole thing—he also discusses conversations with Olmstead and a quack doctor.

brstpathdoc: you owe me some screen cleaner: Don’t have much experience living with that. I do have some familiarity with restless third leg syndrome, though.
Sullivan
June 6th, 2008
18:28:36

I was there, I have no idea if there were 8000 people, but I can say for sure that there was more than 1000.

and that is the funny part. 1,000 is a good, respectable number. 1,500 is a good, respectable number.

8,000 as an exageration is not respectable.

There were, what, about a dozen bus and carpools listed on the TACA website? Add locals and you have a good sized rally—maybe 1-2,000 people.

In the end, the total lack of substance was the problem not the number of participants. Arthur Allen hit the nail on the head:

“How many is too many?”

“Which ones do you give up?”

The fact that they couldn’t even answer these OBVIOUS questions is telling.

This wasn’t Jenny McCarthy’s “I have a dream” speach. This was Jenny McCarthy’s “I’m dreaming” speach.
Tsu Dho Nimh
June 6th, 2008
18:54:40

Mary Parsons:
From the 1960s: Zinsser’s Microbiology or any immunology text.

For the early vaccination stuff, Google Books will be your new best friend. Search for “Full View”, set the dates for before the 1860s, and use variolation or small pox as the search word.

James Moore’s “The history of the Small Pox”, from 1815 has a chapter on the opposition.

“A Century of Vaccination and what it teaches” might also be good.

From there, just keep hitting Google’s book search for the authors they mention – you can find interesting things in soem of their week;ly magazines, including tirades about the Godless immorality of vaccines.

You will also find out why variolation didn’t work as well in the hands of physicians as it did when amateurs were doing it.
Hawkes
June 6th, 2008
21:26:02

and that is the funny part. 1,000 is a good, respectable number. 1,500 is a good, respectable number.

8,000 as an exageration is not respectable.

And that’s fine, but that shouldn’t be what the lead for the story is. The lead should be:

“They said this; these are the facts that show where they are wrong.”

Simply sniggering at them for not getting the turnout that was expected or advertised makes this site come off as petty.

All I want are verifiable facts, not juvenile banter.
Kev
June 6th, 2008
21:45:34

Hawkes – I’ve been blogging on vaccines/autism for five years. Use the search function.
Sullivan
June 6th, 2008
21:59:46

And that’s fine, but that shouldn’t be what the lead for the story is. The lead should be:

Why should that happen here? It should have happened in the reports from the people who marched. Instead they are trying to make more out of the march than really happened.

It is good an proper for Kev to call them on their exaggeration.

I find it amusing that they (the marchers) hav decided that public relations lies are more important than facts. It is amusing in this instance because it is basically harmless, since no one really covered the rally.

Now, when they lie about other facts for public relations gains, these same people are often doing harm to my child’s future.
Ms. Clark
June 6th, 2008
23:51:28

I wonder why the media that did cover the McRally didn’t call Jenny on the blatantly false information on her rally-green t-shirt? I guess because no one who interviewed her did any fact checking on what is in vaccines? These people don’t seem to be so concerned about facts, they seem to be more concerned with saying whatever it takes to get their faces in the news and to scare people off of vaccines. Saying that 8,000 people showed up makes their argument sound more legitimate than saying 1,000 people showed up.

They say they aren’t anti-vaccine, but they were marching with lots of signs and nearly all of them were anti-vaccine. Very few could be taken as meaning, “We really want to vaccinate our children. Just filter out those ‘chick embryos’ and monkey kidneys and the aluminum.”

When Dr. Jay Gordon said something like, “Does this mean we are anti-vaccine?” it sounded like about 3 people yelled, “NO!” If he had said something like, “...a generation of children destroyed by vaccines!” it’s obvious to me that there would have been a few hundred or a thousand people whistling and applauding. I think I heard him ask that question on the Autism Speaks rally video on youtube.
Ms. Clark
June 7th, 2008
00:04:27

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vBgfDLnQyIk
at 1:53 you can hear Dr. Jay ask, “Are we antivaccine?” And a few people near him yell, “No!” Maybe they are part of the rally staff who keep saying that it wasn’t supposed to be an anti-vaccine rally.

How about the reaction to Carrey when he says loving his daughter and Jenny and Evan has “made him a man.” that’s at about 3:00. There’s a huge reaction from the crowd.
momanabanana
June 7th, 2008
02:24:10

http://www.autismspeaks.org/in....._recap.php

This issue is only getting started…it’s not going to disappear. We, the parents who know there’s a link because we’ve seen it with our own eyes, are not going anywhere.

Dr. Healy is not going anywhere. What she has said about the refusal of the CDC to persue susceptibility group studies is FACT.

I was one of those people who stood 10 feet in front of the microphone… I did not organize the rally… I supported it because my son was injured by vaccines and so were thousands of other children. All 50 states along with Canada, Mexico, and England were represented.

Deny it all you want to… Or better yet, keep arguing about the number of people in attendance. That’s a key issue, since there is a direct correlation between the number of people who say something and the degree to which that something is true.

Here’s an inconvenient little truth…There’s IS a population of children who are genetically susceptible to vaccine injury.

Are there people in the autism community who are entirely antivaccine? Yes. Are they right in thinking this way? Ofcourse not. Was this rally anti-vaccine?... NO. All extremes represent an unhealthy imbalance.

I am not anti-vaccine. I am careful. My son had a titers test and didn’t need certain booster shots… he didn’t get them because he already had the necessary immunology (thanks to an erroneous double dose of vaccines as an infant).

By the way, much of the commentary here is as laughable as doing away with vaccines. This blog proves that both sides have their extremists.

It’s been a pleasure…. I leave you to your consciences.
Ms. Clark
June 7th, 2008
03:16:32

No one is going to budge the vaccine schedule or change the vaccine formulations because a bunch of scientific illiterates led by a bunch of wandering wannabes misrepresents facts about the vaccine schedule and vaccine formulations. I have no doubt that antivax websites will continue to spout conspiracy theories and I have no doubt that there will be parents who will say stuff like, “my baby descended into the hell that is autism within three minutes of her 4 month vaccines.” And I have no doubt that credulous people will continue to believe such statements.

I also don’t doubt that there may be many more outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases thanks to the tactics of people like those who attended the rally who want vaccinations to stop right now and pretend that they’ll all be “on board” with the CDC schedule after it conforms to the amateur vaccinologists’ own ideas of what it should be. And unfortunately, I think we can look forward to learning of 3 month old babies dying horrible deaths by whooping cough and measles, and we may hear of increasing numbers of babies born with limb deformations and blindnees and deafness and autism from Congenital Rubella Syndrome.

The correlary of that is we might see demonstrations of hundreds of enraged parents whose children were born with CRS, or died of vaccine preventable meningitis or whooping cough or measles because they had been scared off of vaccinating their kids properly by the “green your vaccines” brigade. Maybe they’ll picket that famed office in Nixa, MO, or maybe they’ll picket and scream angry statements by the hundreds outside some former “comedienne’s” home in Hollywood with pictures of their dead children on their picket signs. And maybe that’ll make all the nightly news programs.
Joseph
June 7th, 2008
04:23:58

We, the parents who know there’s a link because we’ve seen it with our own eyes, are not going anywhere.

You can’t infer a link like the one that is stipulated based on observation of a number of single cases. Only data can tell us if there’s a link. It’s pretty arrogant to say “I know the truth because I have a special way of knowing.”

By the way, much of the commentary here is as laughable as doing away with vaccines.

If that’s so, I’d suggest you address it. Sounds like it should be easy.
Kev
June 7th, 2008
08:35:12

“This issue is only getting started…”

Its amazing how many times I’ve heard that line over the last 5 years. Usually its closely followed by the line ‘the science is coming soon, just wait a few more months’.
HCN
June 7th, 2008
08:57:58

I remember hearing from someone in the Autism-Mercury Yahoo group about some great break through research was coming out, and it would fix everything! Turned out the paper was the Medical Hypothesis journal’s publishing the “autism is mercury poisoning” stuff. Oh, yeah… that convinced everyone… NOT!
Sullivan
June 7th, 2008
17:18:57

Showing up at a rally is proof that people believe that their children were injured by vaccines—not proof that they actually were.

No, I am not denying that vaccine injury exists. However, the statement “my child has autism therefore he has vaccine injury” is false.

This issue is only getting started…it’s not going to disappear.

Yes, no amount of factual data will make it go away either.
farmwifetwo
June 7th, 2008
20:17:50

A friend’s co-worker’s 3 week old child died this week from bacterial meningitus.

A disease for which there is vaccinations to prevent. Someone gave this child that disease b/c they knew better than the “scientists”.

This will become the new “norm”. Frightening.

S.
Kev
June 7th, 2008
20:46:40

That is awful – what a terrible thing :(
Carrie Elsass
June 8th, 2008
20:57:26

In defense of the restless leg comment- look it up yourselves:
Adults at risk for RLS also were more likely to be overweight, unemployed, daily smokers, and to have issues with work attendance and performance.
Regan
June 9th, 2008
00:21:33

RLS is a neurologic disorder.

Some people display RLS from early childhood on, and it’s not too difficult to imagine that if someone was chronically sleep deprived and in pain, that there could be an increased likelihood of being unemployed, and having issues with work attendance and performance. Being overweight can result from many different sources, although jumping to assumptions and value judgements of “laziness” may be the easy way out. Unless I am mistaken, even Jenny McCarthy has been known to puff on a cigarette or two.

Casting aspersions on those with RLS was a cheap shot carrying all kinds of value judgments and assumptions and was unnecessary to make the point. I think it’s a mistake to play the “our disorder is more worthy than their disorder” card.
Ms. Clark
June 9th, 2008
01:18:34

Sleep deprivation can cause all kinds of problems, and I seriously doubt the Mr. Dumb and Dumber took the time to do research on restless legs syndrome before he called it “lazy ass disease”. I just hope he gets to experience it one day. I just might interfere with his ability to show up for work. Wouldn’t that be poetic justice?
Science-Based Medicine » Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, and “Green Our Vaccines”: Anti-vaccine, not “pro-safe vaccine”
June 9th, 2008
13:53:57

[...] while more objective estimates from people not associated with the march put the number at probably less than 1,000. Such wide variations in estimates for the attendance at such events are not uncommon; for my [...]
Autism Blog - The Art of Green Our Vaccines | Left Brain/Right Brain
June 9th, 2008
15:56:27

[...] the “Green our Vaccines” rally (already much discussed—such as here, here, here, here, here), I spent a lot of time thinking about what sort of questions I would ask Jenny [...]
Keithp
June 9th, 2008
16:02:49

I was at the Rally, near the front of the line, so I cannot say for certain how many people were there, although, it seemed to me that there were several thousand, perhaps not 8,000, but what does it matter anyways??

All you negative posters here should be ashamed of yourselves. You point out every little detail that cannot be proven as a fault in the parents’ arguments, yet deny the very same unproven details that support them.

I too, watched my daughter go from healthy, babbling “mama” and “dada” at 3 months old, to being mentally comatose and unresponsive immediately after her vaccination. She’s now 5 and still doesn’t speak, and has several other ‘classic’ signs of autism (and has been officially diagnosed since age 18 months… took them a YEAR just to make the diagnosis)

Many of are taunting us as ‘anti-vaccine’ which really is only half true. When Jenny said ‘hell no’ if she would have another child vaccinated, I believe it was the same reaction as mine, which is “hell no, until they remove the toxic chemicals and agree to space them out”. Sure I want my child to be protected, but there’s no need for them to have to play Russian roulette with a 1 in 150 chance of the vaccine making them in many cases, irreversibly brain damaged, which in essence is what autism really is.
Kev
June 9th, 2008
20:19:11

“All you negative posters here should be ashamed of yourselves. “

Amd yet I’m not.

Every little detail that cannot be proven?

What detail is that? How about the detail that after over 10 years of vaccine/autism babble no studies have established a causative connection.

The leaders of the green our vaccines movement have an awful lot of money. Why don’t they set up and fund some proper, science-led studies?

Autism is not brain damage for goodness sake. Its a developmental condition.
Keithp
June 9th, 2008
20:40:41

“no studies have established a causative connection.

The leaders of the green our vaccines movement have an awful lot of money. Why don’t they set up and fund some proper, science-led studies?

Autism is not brain damage for goodness sake. Its a developmental condition.”

And there are NO peer-reviewed studies at all. NONE, NOT ONE. ALL studies so far have been sponsored by special interests, be they corporate of government.

So exactly what do you have against removing poisons and spreading out the vaccine schedule?? All known effects can find no plausible reason NOT to do this. Safety is a #1 priority, right?

This is just like golbal warming.. deny deny deny, then admit, but deny the cause, then argue about the impact… so is that what’s next? Are you going to try and tell me that my daughter isn’t autistic?

Tell me.. what’s the cause? duhIDUNNO* aint an answer either, what, in your opinion is causing it, knowing what YOU know?
Joseph
June 9th, 2008
21:53:51

Sure I want my child to be protected, but there’s no need for them to have to play Russian roulette with a 1 in 150 chance of the vaccine making them in many cases, irreversibly brain damaged, which in essence is what autism really is.

There is no evidence whatsoever that neurological vaccine injury occurs in 1 out of 150 vaccinations. Stop making up data please.
Kev
June 9th, 2008
22:36:11

“And there are NO peer-reviewed studies at all. NONE, NOT ONE. ALL studies so far have been sponsored by special interests, be they corporate of government.”

Are you joking? Are you saying that ALL science is sponsored by special interests? That’s a ridiculous conspiracy-theory driven opinion.

“This is just like global warming.. deny deny deny, then admit, but deny the cause, then argue about the impact…”

WTF? Who’s talking about global warming???

“so is that what’s next? Are you going to try and tell me that my daughter isn’t autistic?”

Uh, no.

“Tell me.. what’s the cause? duhIDUNNO* aint an answer either, what, in your opinion is causing it, knowing what YOU know?”

The cause of autism? I wish there was one straight answer. I don’t think there’s even one thing, I think there’s many slightly differing autismS. In the main, I think its mostly genetic with an environmental component but that’s just my opinion. Nobody KNOWS Keith.
Leila
June 9th, 2008
23:06:54

KeithP, no child in the universe can say “mamma” and “dada” at 3 months old, so it’s hard to believe your claims. Autism tipically presents at around 12-18 months, although some babies show even earlier signs. Many neurological disorders, even in adulthood, cause regression and loss of skills, so the fact that autism does that is not surprising nor means that autism is triggered by an external injury. It is the very nature of this disorder to start in toddlerhood, even though it was written in the child’s genes at the point of conception.
Liz Ditz
June 10th, 2008
00:38:35
keithp—
First, please accept my support for you as a parent of a child with developmental disabilities. It is a hard road to walk.

Second: your comment: too, watched my daughter go from healthy, babbling “mama” and “dada” at 3 months old, to being mentally comatose and unresponsive immediately after her vaccination.

It is unlikely that your daughter at three months was reliably producing “mama” on the sight of, or to attract the attention of, her mother, and likewise for “dada”.

National Network for Childcare Milestones

Language/Social Skills at 3 months:
- make cooing, gurgling sounds
- smile when smiled at
- communicate hunger, fear, discomfort (through crying or facial expression)
- usually quiet down at the sound of a soothing voice or when held
- anticipate being lifted
- react to “peek-a-boo” games
Lin
June 18th, 2008
17:13:44

So many coincidences in just one day?!? Seems to me the inability to reveal sources, the ISP “deciding” to go down today (of all days), the lack of credibility from the eye witness (hey – I was there and the speakers are not even presented in the correct order), etc. would tend to make any normal person question the reliability and factual content of this extremely biased, blatantly dishonest account of the rally. Well done – sacrilege at its finest – AGAIN!!
Matt
June 18th, 2008
18:48:42

Lin,

post a picture or video of the whole crowd and show that there were 8,500 (or whatever the claimed number is by now) at the rally.

More importantly, show that the rally had an effect on anyone other than the attendees.
Kev
June 18th, 2008
19:12:08

I’m quite prepared to accept the possibility I’m wrong Lin but sacrilege? Are you admitting this is all a Cult?

Oh and I posted the ‘official’ crowd shot from the AoA website. If there are more than 1,500 people in that shot I’ll eat my hat. See further up the comment thread for links to pictures of crowd shots of 8 – 10,000
Lin
June 18th, 2008
21:46:00

I was referring to your blog – sacrilege.
Lin
June 18th, 2008
21:49:39

BTW - it is but one shot – the attendees couldn’t have possibly all fit into just one shot – even with a wide angle.
Kev
June 18th, 2008
23:02:09

Uh-huh, I got you were referring to my blog Lin – what religious thing am I profaning?

“the attendees couldn’t have possibly all fit into just one shot”

Yeah, right. I wonder how all those crowd shots of 8 – 10,000 I posted were taken then?
Lin
June 18th, 2008
23:20:46

You know, I truly have better things to with my time than engage in a war of words with the likes of you. I fully realize you do not have anything better to do and live for such opportunities. If there aren’t any available, you create them, just as you’ve created an entire false account of the GOV rally. Why? For the satisfaction of your cult following, which is the other thing you live for!

I was at the rally. I witnessed it first hand. Your entire piece is seriously flawed; purposely so, in my opinion.

Why is it so wrong to desire a safer vaccine schedule, more rigorous oversight of the governmental agencies in charge of vaccine safety, and to err on the side of caution? To not believe vaccines have side effects is nothing less than lunacy. To believe the vaccine schedule and their contents cannot be improved upon is nothing less than indolence.
S.L.
June 18th, 2008
23:23:15

Sorry, but I find it hysterical that people who went to a rally led by the Indigo Mother Warrior herself, refer to any of us as a “cult.” Wonder what Kryon would have to say about that…
Lin
June 18th, 2008
23:34:24

Often, the truth hurts, presuming of course that one is capable of human emotions and feelings.
S.L.
June 18th, 2008
23:43:51

I almost spit my water out onto my Mac. The truth hurts—I guess it does, to people like Kirby and JMC when it is screaming in their ears. Like that there is NO link between vaccines & autism. Or that the DAN! Protocol is a big fat waste of money. Or that there are NO autistic Amish. Or that there are autistic adults in this world. Yeah, I imagine those types of truths hurt those folks, and they do all they can to avoid them. One can only wonder where people like that would get an income if they admitted those truths for once and for all…

Right—we that promote the acceptance of autistic individuals, we that say we believe in our children, we that love with no strings attached, we that embrace our autistic children and friends, we that don’t attempt to force our children into some mold we’ve created or society has put forth… Yes, we are obviously incapable of human emotions and feelings…
Liz Ditz
June 18th, 2008
23:49:18

On estimating crowds

Crowd estimation:
Imponderables spoke to New York officials about how they make crowd estimates. In most cases, the task is left to the local police precinct where the parade takes place.

The police make stabs at accuracy, but it is no more a science in New York than in Pasadena. The most popular technique for Fifth Avenue parades (such as the St. Patrick’s Day parade or Columbus Day parade) is to count the number of rows of spectators behind the blue wooden barriers that are placed on each side of the street. Each barrier is fourteen feet long. Assuming that the population behind each barrier will reflect the parade route as a whole, the police estimate how many spectators fit into the square footage available in essence, they duplicate the methodology of Doo-Dah founder Apanel without using photographs, and simply assume that density levels will not vary greatly at different points in the parade route.
Liz Ditz
June 19th, 2008
00:22:52

Lin asked: Why is it so wrong to desire a safer vaccine schedule,

There are two things wrong with that question. One is “begging the question”—assuming that the vaccine schedule isn’t safe. The second is Lin’s assumption that there is no such thing as a risk-reward calculation. Let us take a simple example: delaying inoculations against a given infectious disease increases the chance that the child will acquire that disease, with its attendant morbidity-mortality risks.

more rigorous oversight of the governmental agencies in charge of vaccine safety,

Again, Lin starts off by begging the question—assuming that the current level of oversight isn’t rigorous.

What would qualify as “more rigorous”? A guarantee that no vaccines ever injure anybody? What constitutes “injure”? Who would be charged with this oversight, and how would those bodies be constituted?

and to err on the side of caution? To not believe vaccines have side effects is nothing less than lunacy. Lin, all decisions—even the decision to do nothing—have possible deleterious outcomes for some people, some time. I don’t know a single person who supports routine childhood vaccination who would argue that there are never side effects to vaccination. Yes, there are side effects, but they are rare. Autism is not a side effect of vaccination, and never has been.

Vaccination programs are public health—meaning that the benefits and risks have to be weighed on a very-large-group (macro) level, not on an individual, case-by-case level. Parents perceive the outcome of the vaccination at an individual level, and (mistakenly) reason from there.

To believe the vaccine schedule and their contents cannot be improved upon is nothing less than indolence.

Another great example of begging the question—”If it weren’t for the Green Our Vaccine Movement, there would be no push to improve on the vaccine schedule and contents!”

Compare this:

“t is interesting to note that although children receive more vaccines today than they did a hundred years ago, when only the smallpox vaccine was routinely recommended in infancy, the number of separate immunologic challenges contained in vaccines has actually decreased! The smallpox vaccine contained about 200 viral proteins. If you add up today’s eleven routinely recommended vaccines, the number of vaccine proteins and polysaccharides (complex sugars) is less than 130: diphtheria (1), tetanus (1), pertussis (2-5), polio (15), measles (10), mumps (9), rubella (5), Hib (2), varicella (69), conjugate pneumococcus (8), and hepatitis B (1).”

Gee, that all happened because…the drive to create safer vaccines. By physicians.
Matt
June 19th, 2008
00:26:42

Why is it so wrong to desire a safer vaccine schedule, more rigorous oversight of the governmental agencies in charge of vaccine safety, and to err on the side of caution? To not believe vaccines have side effects is nothing less than lunacy. To believe the vaccine schedule and their contents cannot be improved upon is nothing less than indolence.

Who says the schedule can’t be made safer? You are making up things to argue against.

For example, is removing MMR from the schedule—as recommended by Jenny McCarthy’s organization—safer? Based on what science? Based on what criteria?

Just saying, “Too Many Too Soon” without support is nonsense. How many is “not too many” when is “not too soon”?

I’m all for a safer vaccine schedule. What if the science tells us that we don’t have enough yet? What if the science tells us that vaccinating earlier would save lives?

Just because I put a wrapper around it saying, “This is a safer vaccine program” doesn’t make it necessarily correct.

I have a prediction: the vaccine schedule will change in the future. The Science will tell us that we are better off with a different one. It isn’t written in stone. But, that doesn’t mean that there are too many.
Kev
June 19th, 2008
01:11:47

“You know, I truly have better things to with my time than engage in a war of words with the likes of you.”

The I suggest you scamper off and do them toots :)

“I fully realize you do not have anything better to do and live for such opportunities.”

Remind me Lin – was it you who commented on here? Or was it your clone with nothing better to do who lives for such opportunities?

“just as you’ve created an entire false account of the GOV rally. Why? For the satisfaction of your cult following, which is the other thing you live for!”

Wow – and look! Jim n Jen follow a made up set of beliefs about vaccines for the satisfaction of their cult following. Awww, I guess really, we’re all the same and should just try to love each other and blah blah blah.

“I was at the rally. I witnessed it first hand. Your entire piece is seriously flawed; purposely so, in my opinion.”

But weirdly, all the photos and video point to a pretty small crowd. I think your opinion is seriously flawed. I’m not sure if its deliberate or just stupidity though.
Lin
June 19th, 2008
01:35:17

Matt,

It’s quite simple! First, to think there is absolutely no room for improvement is laughable and dangerous!!

Second, I’m not sure which organization you are referring to, but I’ve heard Jenny speak on a number of occasions and watched numerous interviews. What she actually says is to split up the MMR. I know, you’ve gone and changed her statements to accommodate YOUR VERSION OF THE TRUTH. And again, why? What’s it to you? Why is insisting that our government do their job by not giving the CDC and PHARMA a free pass so wrong? Why should I, or anyone for that matter, not have the right to choose single dose vaccines, one at a time? Why can I not insist on rigorous safety testing for vaccines given IN COMBINATION? Why can I not refuse administration of Hep. B to my child on the day of birth when I’ve already tested negative for it during said pregnancy? Gee, the last time I checked, this was the United States of America, a democracy, where I have rights as a citizen and a parent. But when it comes to immunizations, our system is nothing short of tyranny!

FYI – “TOO MANY, TOO SOON” was the theme. The content of what that means was within the individual speeches, our meetings with our respective legislators, and our thousands of letters, faxes, and emails to Congress. Don’t you just love the American way??
Lin
June 19th, 2008
01:51:45

Pitiful how you always have to result to flaming, Matt. You are beyond unkind. Name calling, bigotry, attempts of belittlement are the essence of your substance. So sad. This is precisely why I continue to battle on every front for my child.
Lin
June 19th, 2008
02:41:24

Sullivan-
Wasn’t responding to you but, whatever.

Love how you guys tag team. It’s as if you go on a feeding frenzy.

Orac is wrong. I’d like to see the evidence and studies. Combination vacs may be studied, but not combos given in conjunction with combinations of other vaccinations, which is common practice.

Jenny McCarthy is actually the spokesperson for TACA and on the board of GR. She is affiliated with numerous autism orgs – FYI.

How recently have you tried refusing a vaccine for a child? Any personal experience? What gives you credibility on the subject?

Not a one of you has answered me this question which I’ve asked repeatedly…why do you care and what’s it to you? Like it or not, I should have a choice in raising my own child.

I truly do not get you people!
Lin
June 19th, 2008
02:55:25

To get back to the original inaccuracy of this entire blog – please study the video yourself, and you tell me there were only 500 to 1,000 people there. Then tell me again about credibility, please.

http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/
http://gallery.mac.com/wendy.fournier#100040

If you weren’t so busy defending your ridiculous claims, perhaps you would have had the time or been able to find some actual footage and supportive photos yourself.
Lin
June 19th, 2008
03:30:35

Or…you could just take a yittle looksie here and decide the actual number of attendees for yourself….

http://www.talkaboutcuringauti.....-recap.htm
HCN
June 19th, 2008
03:33:36

Lin said “FYI – “TOO MANY, TOO SOON” was the theme”

Okay, which vaccines of the following do you plan to eliminate from the first year of a babies life (also give some documentation as to why this vaccine is unnecessary):

Pertussis
diphtheria
tetanus
Haemophilus influenzae type b
polio
HepB
Pneumococcal

These are the ones that I see on this list for children under 12 months old. It is also only a recommended schedule. I don’t recall any of my kids getting the rotavirus vaccine (actually one got the actual disease, which made him dehydrated enough to have seizure and end up in the hospital):
http://cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/s.....ule_pr.pdf

Now after the first year is the when the following are given, just tell us which ones are unnecessary and why (actual scientific documentation would be needed, something indexed at PubMed):

measles
mumps
rubella
varicella
HepA

I really want to know what science is being used for the rally cry of “too many to soon”. So if you could provide us with the actual proposed schedule would be, and what studies have been performed to come up with that schedule, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
Ms. Clark
June 19th, 2008
03:33:50

The problem is that the mercury parents have a habit of lying about the amount of people who show up at their rallies. This time they over estimated by about 8 times or maybe 10 times. You can tell by looking at the television coverage how many people were there. It might have hit 2,000 but that includes lots of kids.

The need to inflate the number of attendees fits with the general disregard for reality that was apparent among the rally goers. Like one mom had a fraudulent mail order urine heavy metals lab result blown up to about 3 feet by 2 1/2 feet. It was supposed to prove her kid was “mercury toxic” but it proves nothing of the sort. It says on the bottom of those lab tests that they are not to compare their standards with provoked samples or words to that effect.

And real toxicologists don’t use the funky mail order labs that the mercury parents use.

You people are desperate. I get that. You are full of hate and rage at “Big Gummint” and “Big Pharma” It makes you kind of pitiful.

It doesn’t make you right.

Generation rescue recommends NO MMR vaccines. I heard Jenny say that if she had a baby it would get NO vaccines, but you are saying that she says that the MMR should be spread out? Hmmm. I doubt she said that.
Lin
June 19th, 2008
04:07:16

Tag, Ms. Clark, you’re it!

Gees…what on earth has made you so incredibly disagreeable (to put it nicely).

You are an authority because why and your credentials??

You people like to hear yourself talk big is what I think.

But, I’ll again do the work for you. I’m beginning to think you’re all simply incompetent.

Here is the link. Listen closely now….no more half truths or words in the mouth on behalf of us…the desperate parents, please. We’ve simply enough to contend without your self-serving, self-indulging, self-gratifying falsehoods. But, thanks for your ill-intentions, complete lack of empathy or support!

http://www.etonline.com/news/2.....index.html

In case you miss it due to selective hearing…”MMR should be separated,” is what Jenny says!
Lin
June 19th, 2008
04:15:19

HCN ~

HELLO???? Aren’t any of you listening?

I repeat, when it stopped being the parent’s choice and right to choose, it became tyranny.

Ever tried to get a child into school or daycare without mandated vaccines? Ever tried to refuse any of the “too many” vaccines? If you had, you’d know and understand!

Try personal experience for a change rather the perpetual bantering.

Very sorry to hear about your child’s hospitalization. Truly, I am.
Ms. Clark
June 19th, 2008
04:46:50

Lin deary, it’s not tag team when you show up on a blog and different people respond to you. That’s how blogs work. I’m sorry that you were under the impression that you got to pick one person and have that one only respond to you.

So Generation Rescue says children should never get any measles mumps or rubella vaccines, alone or in any combination. But their spokesmodel, the bunny, says she would separate them from her child by say, miles… as in her child would get none of them, together or in combo. So that makes the bunny, what? Confused? Deceptive?

There is no reason. No reason on earth to “separate” them and there’s no reason to follow the Generation Rescue recommended schedule which allows for no measles, mumps or rubella vaccines.

Keep in mind that the leader of GR has a baby that he said might never get any vaccines, except possibly the rubella vaccine as a young adult. What’s that about? More “separating” the vaccines from kids, entirely?

There is no reason to fear the current schedule. So far, the majority of parents seem to think that it’s a case of bored, entitled and bizarre fear mongers who are trying to terrify people away from vaccines.

Thanks for sharing the websites though. Lots of misinformation packed into such a little space!
It\'s not a game of tag
June 19th, 2008
05:03:40

Perhaps you might want to read what Ms. McCarthy and Jim Carrey wrote for CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/.....index.html

Even if the CDC is not convinced of a link between vaccines and autism, changing the vaccine schedule should be seriously considered as a precautionary measure. (If you would like to see some ideas for alternative schedules, check out http://generationrescue..org

Now, check out the “favorite” vaccine schedule on the GR website

http://www.generationrescue.org/vaccines.htm

Check schedule #1, “listen to the doctor (our favorite).

No MMR coverage at all. None.

That is not a good “precautionary measure” in my mind.

The next paragraph (the conclusion to the piece) ends with “...we do believe there is strong evidence to suggest that some of the ingredients may be hazardous and that our children are being given too many, too soon!”

Sorry, I don’t think of MMR as one of the “too many”. And, since they don’t include it AT ALL in their favorite alternative schedule, the “too soon” part is bunk.
HCN
June 19th, 2008
05:04:19

Actually I have been reading. I just want to know what the revised schedule is, and the studies that support it. That is all.

Oh, since my seizure kid never got the pertussis vaccine, I know that the vaccines are NOT mandated. Also, I live in a state where it is easy to opt out of the vaccines. Which is one reason why there was a pertussis epidemic when my oldest health impaired kid was an infant. So that statement about mandated vaccines and and what-not is just silly:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/c.....6/14/1757?

Just answer the question: Which vaccines are the “Green the Vaccine” people saying need to be delayed, eliminated and what is the science behind their decisions. I am particularly curious about the measles, rubella and mumps (which is not given until a child is over a year old, and were major causes of children becomeing deaf, blind, mentally retarded, oh and dead).

Thank you in advance for answering the question.
Lin
June 19th, 2008
05:19:02

Ms. Clark,

Please enlighten me, exactly how long does it take for someone to become so cold, calloused and empty? And so proudly so, I might add!

It is so sad that you also have to resort to bullying, belittling tactics. You are just plain mean spirited. It is obvious why you are so well like here.

You people and your selective listening…Jenny is the spokesperson for TACA NOT GR!! What don’t you get about that? My, when you guys (and gals) get stuck on something, you REALLY get stuck!! Funny, my son is exactly that same way. So hard to un-do anything he’s perceived, correctly or incorrectly. Again, why I continue to fight on all fronts for him with every essence of my being….

Okay, for the last time…if you are indeed able to listen objectionable and understand….parents should have the freedom of choice. This is America!

As for the links, I get it that is too much work to look for yourself. It is so much easier to repeat after one another…same shit, different day!

“If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.” Thomas Jefferson
Again and again
June 19th, 2008
05:36:19

Okay, for the last time…if you are indeed able to listen objectionable and understand….parents should have the freedom of choice. This is America!

If we were on a different blog and I were asking, “How do I avoid vaccines”, why do I think you would be able to point me to the exact information for my state on how to get an exemption?

You people and your selective listening…Jenny is the spokesperson for TACA NOT GR!! What don’t you get about that?

Have you ever looked at the main page for GR? Upper right hand corner—do you see the picture of Jenny McCarthy? Did you notice that she’s a board member for the organization?

She represents GR. What don’t you get about that? She tells people to go to the GR website to look for alternative vaccine schedules. What don’t you get about that. The favorite vaccine schedule that is on the GR site doesn’t include MMR.

I won’t follow that last with the “what don’t you get about that” The very fact that you are struggling against Jenny’s link to that schedule tells us all that you think it damaging to her reputation. The reason for that, most likely, is that you likely see it as irresponsible to recommend people avoid MMR.

Perhaps you have other reasons. That would be unfortunate, because it is irresponsible for an organization (GR) and, in my opinion, public figures like Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey to be recommending people avoid vaccines for such serious diseases.
Again and again
June 19th, 2008
05:40:28

Please enlighten me, exactly how long does it take for someone to become so cold, calloused and empty? And so proudly so, I might add!

Do you see how the above could be considered to be bullying and belittling? Because, it really looks like it. Making your next statement:

It is so sad that you also have to resort to bullying, belittling tactics. You are just plain mean spirited. It is obvious why you are so well like here.

Rather ironic, wouldn’t you say?

Tell you what. Put this all to rest. Answer the question that neither Jim nor Jenny were prepared to answer: which vaccines can we do without (the ‘too many’ question).
HCN
June 19th, 2008
05:48:32

Lin said “Jenny is the spokesperson for TACA NOT GR!!”

Are you so sure about that?...
http://www.generationrescue.org/jenny.html

It is not a coincident that while my son had to be protected from pertussis because it was at epidemic levels in our county, that at around the same time (he is almost 20 years old) over 120 Americans died from measles (at least two in our state). Even now about a dozen babies die from pertussis in the USA each year.

Can you tell us what this brand new “Green Vaccine” schedule is, and the science behind it? Be sure that it is backed up with stuff indexed on PubMed. Thank you.
Quotes
June 19th, 2008
05:54:27

Thomas Jefferson had some very good things to say. Such as:

The moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees in every object only the tracts which favor that theory.

In reading that, I am reminded of Dr. Mumper, who used the Hornig study in forming her opinions about how thimerosal causes autism, but hadn’t even read the Berman study which refute Horning.
Ms. Clark
June 19th, 2008
06:03:20

This is very funny. :-D
“You people and your selective listening…Jenny is the spokesperson for TACA NOT GR!! What don’t you get about that? My, when you guys (and gals) get stuck on something, you REALLY get stuck!! Funny, my son is exactly that same way. So hard to un-do anything he’s perceived, correctly or incorrectly. Again, why I continue to fight on all fronts for him with every essence of my being…”

You people and your selective understanding. Jenny IS a spokesperson for GR. When she was on that goofy Hollywood show she accepted a big old check from some blonde that was payable to…... Jenny? No. Jimbo? No. Talk About Curing Toxic Moms? No. Jenny accepted a check made out the Generation Rescue.

Hmmmm. Tell me again who has selective hearing? Tell me who is it that gets stuck on a loop and can’t get out?

Then answer HCN’s questions about which vaccines are not helping kids be safer?

Which vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they protect against.

Jim, of “dumb and dumber” fame, was asked which vaccines needed to be removed from the current schedule. He was wearing a “Too Many Too Soon” t-shirt at the time. His answer was, “Some parents opt not to give the tetanus vaccine” or words to that effect.

So was it the single tetanus vaccine that “caused the autism epidemic” Who gets the single tetanus vaccine? Babies don’t. They get the DTaP, if I’m not mistaken.

Or maybe he is all alone in thinking that a single tetanus shot at say, age 15, or age 30, is “too many too soon”.

No one is saying that parents don’t have a choice. It’s just that parents shouldn’t be needlessly terrorized away from something that could save their baby’s life or prevent serious disability like deafness, blindness, limb deformities or sterility.

It’s not right to lie about vaccines.
HCN
June 19th, 2008
06:10:24

Oddly enough… tetanus is the only thing on the schedule for which herd immunity does not exist.

I’m an avid gardener. Tetanus is something we always keep current.
Ms. Clark
June 19th, 2008
06:18:18

I’m up to date on my tetanus vaccine… I got it with the Tdap a couple of years ago.

I sure wouldn’t want to wish tetanus on Jim Carrey…
“Tetanus (lockjaw) is a serious disease that causes painful tightening of the muscles, usually all over the body. It can lead to “locking” of the jaw so the victim cannot open his mouth or swallow. Tetanus leads to death in about 1 in 10 cases. Several vaccines are used to prevent tetanus among children, adolescents, and adults including DTaP, Tdap, DT, and Td”
I guess he thinks the odds are pretty good that if all kids got no tetanus vaccine that only a few of them would die, and maybe he thinks those would be ones he didn’t like anyway… or something…
Kev
June 19th, 2008
07:58:44

Lin you seem genuinely uninformed about the affiliations of the people you consider on your side and leading the charge. I think that speaks volumes about your general level of knowledge on the subject.

This isn’t America by the way this is a UK blog owned by a UK resident.

The backs of the tshirts worn at this rally claimed a lot of baloney about vaccine ingredients. Did you know for example that the amount of aluminium in the entire vaccine schedule for up to a 6 year old can be equaled by one year of breast feding? Did you also know that the amount of Formaldahyde in the entire vaccine schedule for up to a 6 year old is equal to 1 thin slice of 1 banana? Did you know that the claim that there is anti-freeze in vaccines is a straight out lie?

Your heroes are damaging the reputation of something that has saved untold thousands of lives based on absolutely no science whatsoever.

Now as to the claim of 8000 at this rally. You linked to two pages containing lots of links. Be more specific.
Natalie
June 19th, 2008
15:07:28

“Did you also know that the amount of Formaldahyde in the entire vaccine schedule for up to a 6 year old is equal to 1 thin slice of 1 banana?”

Don’t our bodies also manufacture formaldehyde on their own? I believe it’s a component of blood.
Ms. Clark
June 19th, 2008
18:52:08

Natalie,

Yes, we make formaldehyde. One of the things that glutathione does is to help keep formaldehyde under control.

“...there is a coenzymatic function of glutathione. One of the main ways we get rid of formaldehyde is through a catalytic action, involves using glutathione as a catalyst. The glutathione is not used up (in doing that).”
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=839

And before someone says it, autistic children are not deficient in glutathione.
Tsu Dho Nimh
June 19th, 2008
20:18:09

Lin – when it stopped being the parent’s choice and right to choose, it became tyranny. Ever tried to get a child into school or daycare without mandated vaccines? So, start your own school or daycare where no child is vaccinated.

Perhaps the other parents want to exercise their right to choose that the herd immunity at their children’s school not be diluted unless it’s for children with medically necessary exemptions.

As for the “right to choose”, when you live in a group and expect to enjoy the benefits of group, you have to subordinate some of your individual preferences for the good of the group’s health and safety.
This entire website is a hateful joke
June 19th, 2008
20:47:36

Lin-
Stop while you are ahead. Circular arguments and servitude to pharma and central government are the status-quo here. Instead of questioning their masters, these people would rather live in denial, thinking their children are chosen by god or random occurrences that crippled their mental capacities, rather than face the truth that their own leaders have no qualms about producing a few brain-damaged kids, if it helps lobbyists line their campaign funds.

Seriously, leave and never come back.

Go to autismspeaks.com, there are many nice and helpful people there, even though ms smith, kev and a few others from here try to bring everyone down, they usually get embarrassed in the forums every time they post.
HCN
June 19th, 2008
22:05:20

I’m sorry, I don’t understand: I asked a question and never got an answer. How is that hateful?

I have a child who has been and can be affected by the real diseases. My purpose as a parent is to protect him. How is that hateful?

I search for scientific and medical research information from around the world. I do not rely on information from just the American or UK government. How is that hateful?

Please explain exactly what I have posted here that can be construed as hateful.
Kelli Ann Davis
June 19th, 2008
22:14:13

Nothing will change. No one in charge of vaccine research cares what they think.”

Really Camille? How would you know?
Ms. Clark
June 19th, 2008
23:18:16

Kelli Ann! Wow!

Of course, I know because I am king of the Illuminati and I control what all pharmers and all members of the Gov think…

Actually, because the people who make the decisions and findings that public health policies are based on are scientists, and scientists are sort of fond of science. And they sort of are tending not to be impressed that Lyndelle shows up at some meeting in her tight, shiny black pants and stilettos, and they aren’t so impressed when people like Moody show up at a meeting and fall asleep. What’s his prob anyway? Guy gots narcolepsy or sumpin;?
Kev
June 19th, 2008
23:33:28

Hi again Keith – thought you weren’t coming back?

“Stop while you are ahead. Circular arguments and servitude to pharma and central government are the status-quo here.”

Could you provide an example of these circular arguments and ‘servitude to pharma’?

“rather than face the truth that their own leaders have no qualms about producing a few brain-damaged kids, if it helps lobbyists line their campaign funds.”

That may or may not be true. It certainly isn’t true when it comes to answering the question: do vaccines cause autism?

“Go to autismspeaks.com, there are many nice and helpful people there, even though ms smith, kev and a few others from here try to bring everyone down, they usually get embarrassed in the forums every time they post.”

I genuinely can’t recall the last time I visited that forum. I think its over a year. And who’s ms smith?
Kev
June 19th, 2008
23:49:33

“Really Camille? How would you know?”

Not sure how Camille knows but I tried asking some of them directly.

Look Kelli Anne, all humorous quips to one side you (as in, your ‘side’, not you personally) have a massive credibility issue.

You have some first rate marketing people on your side (Redwood/Blaxill etc) and some very rich people also. This means you have a lot of opportunity to push your message and get involved with the ‘powers that be’. More power to you. Go right ahead.

However, where your issue lays is here: the science that you are using to prop up your various hypotheses is embarrassingly weak. Did it not cross your mind why the Geier’s/Bradstreet et al where not called to the stand in the Omnibus hearings?

Your other issue is that you all can’t keep your story straight. Its mercury, no its MMR, no its both, no its Aluminium, no its all three, no its all ingredients, no its the very vaccines themselves, no its the schedule they’re given. No – its ALL the above. And don’t forget the mitochondria!

Now, when you do manage to get heard by the powers that be, they’ve read the decent science. They’re (with a few exceptions) not silly enough to get sucked into your agendas. So, what actually happens – and I’m afraid this is how the general public perceive you – is that you are ranting like Jenny McCarthy on Larry King Live, telling long serving doctors ‘bullshit’.

Whilst it might be very cathartic, it really doesn’t come across well. Don’t take my word for it, Google some news blogs that allow comments.

Bottom line: good science isn’t done by marketing gurus, researchers who take blood from kids at birthday parties and people who make up IRB’s. Until you can get around the issue that your science is dismal, your credibility with scientists (the people who make vaccine decisions) is zero.
Ms. Clark
June 20th, 2008
03:11:36

Small correction. The PSC did call Bradstreet to the stand.

They didn’t call Dr. John (What medical board order?) Green, Dr. Boyd (Mad Child Disease) Haley, Dr. Jim (I’ll rent you an HBOT balloon) Neubrander, Dr. Mady (Rain Mouse) Hornig (now, that would have been fun), Dr. Martha (Gaia Loves Me) Herbert, Dr. Jill (whey protein supplements) James, Dr. Amy (No, really, my son was recovered) Holmes, Mr. Mark (I do Excel!) Blaxill, not even the famous Sallie/Sally Bernard.
Kev
June 20th, 2008
07:21:54

Of course, how did I forget that?

Yes the lsit of ‘notables’ who were on the original list of experts compared to the list of expert nobodies (Vera ‘I go to their parties’ Byers) is fascinating and very revealing.
Ms. Clark
June 20th, 2008
09:19:24

I think if you added up just the raw number of experts from each side that maybe the DoJ side had twice as many… though I haven’t added them up. What’s funny is that some of the EoHam gang had made a big deal out of how the DoJ had only named 2 or 3 experts that they had on tap to the PSC’s 6 or 7, the comments were like, “our side has more experts, we win!” I wonder how they look at the math now. I would guess that they could have had a few more heavy hitters if they hadn’t covered all the PSC’s points more than well enough with who they had.

There was one expert, I can’t remember now if it was Mailman. On top of his expert testimony (which was about something biochemical that I can’t remember) he said that he and his wife had examined all of the evidence a couple of years ago or so because they were expecting a baby and were concerned about all this thimerosal and autism talk. They decided that the thimerosal containing vaccines were safe for their baby.

I hope we get the transcripts soon, so folks can read it for themselves.
Liz Ditz
June 20th, 2008
22:48:40

Lin writes:

HELLO???? Aren’t any of you listening?

I repeat, when it stopped being the parent’s choice and right to choose, it became tyranny.

Ever tried to get a child into school or daycare without mandated vaccines? Ever tried to refuse any of the “too many” vaccines? If you had, you’d know and understand!

But as CNN reported earlier:

“”Many of these doctors say even though they might disagree with these parents, they are making changes.

“If a parent says no to an intervention, including a vaccination, I have to accept that,” said Dr. Arthur Lavin, a pediatrician in Beachwood, Ohio, and associate clinical professor of pediatrics at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine. “I share with them what I know, but ultimately, it’s the parent’s decision.”

Dr. Kenneth Bock, a clinical instructor in the department of family medicine at Albany Medical College in New York, put it this way: “It shouldn’t be my way or the highway. We can’t say one size fits all. One size doesn’t fit all.”

In an article on CNN.com in March, two CDC doctors wrote, “Although some may call it a ‘one size fits all’ approach, the recommended vaccine schedule is flexible.”

The following is a list of vaccine changes that parents have requested and that some pediatricians have agreed to make. It does not include a discussion of the pros and cons to each approach, or a discussion of whether vaccines and autism are even linked, but rather a list of some approaches being used by some pediatricians and parents.

A list follows—go to the article to read the discussion.

1. Delaying the first hepatitis B shot
2. Not doing some shots at all
3. Checking for ‘titers’ before giving booster shots
4. Spreading the vaccines out over a longer period of time
5. Splitting up combined shots (Pertussis is not available separately, so even doctors like Sears, who offer an alternative schedule, give the DTaP shot.)

However, I want to emphasize what Tsu Dho Nimh wrote:

Perhaps the other parents want to exercise their right to choose that the herd immunity at their children’s school not be diluted unless it’s for children with medically necessary exemptions.

As for the “right to choose”, when you live in a group and expect to enjoy the benefits of group, you have to subordinate some of your individual preferences for the good of the group’s health and safety.
Autism Blog - Dear Mercury and MMR Militia | Left Brain/Right Brain
June 21st, 2008
20:45:20

[...] things prompted this open letter. First of all was David Kirby’s trip to the UK. Second was a comment from Kelli Ann Davies where she expressed surprise that some of us might know/guess/whatever the [...]