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	<title>Comments on: Experts comment on Hornig et al.&#8217;s MMR paper</title>
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	<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/</link>
	<description>Autism news and opinion</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 06:34:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: HolfordWatch</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52950</link>
		<dc:creator>HolfordWatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52950</guid>
		<description>Maria L wrote:&lt;blockquote&gt;Why do you think I didn´t ask experts?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I would be interested to learn what the experts wrote in response to your questions. Or, is the fact that you are posting the questions indicative that you received no response or an unsatisfactory response?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maria L wrote:<br />
<blockquote>Why do you think I didn&#180;t ask experts?
</p></blockquote>
<p>
I would be interested to learn what the experts wrote in response to your questions. Or, is the fact that you are posting the questions indicative that you received no response or an unsatisfactory response?</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52935</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 17:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52935</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#039;t someone who understands science and research methodology write a rebuttal of the paper, instead of Dan Olmsted?

Seriously, every article by Dan Olmsted that I remember relies completely on anecdotes and just-so stories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&#8217;t someone who understands science and research methodology write a rebuttal of the paper, instead of Dan Olmsted?</p>
<p>Seriously, every article by Dan Olmsted that I remember relies completely on anecdotes and just-so stories.</p>
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		<title>By: Navi</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52933</link>
		<dc:creator>Navi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 16:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52933</guid>
		<description>hmmm no idea about that subset. I think gastro issues in people w/ autism should be researched, though. Not because I think there&#039;s a higher percentage in the regular population but because I think a lot these people can&#039;t tell us if they feel poorly, or if their stomach is bugging them, etc. I certainly imagine that if the person feels better, some of the behaviors mistakenly attributed to autism might improve.

*luckily my son&#039;s Dr. has finally made a recommendation to a gastroenterologist, after multiple comments about his frequent diarrhea that we&#039;ve already figured out the fad autism diets won&#039;t help, and it&#039;s difficult to pinpoint a specific food because he eats/mouths everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmmm no idea about that subset. I think gastro issues in people w/ autism should be researched, though. Not because I think there&#8217;s a higher percentage in the regular population but because I think a lot these people can&#8217;t tell us if they feel poorly, or if their stomach is bugging them, etc. I certainly imagine that if the person feels better, some of the behaviors mistakenly attributed to autism might improve.</p>
<p>*luckily my son&#8217;s Dr. has finally made a recommendation to a gastroenterologist, after multiple comments about his frequent diarrhea that we&#8217;ve already figured out the fad autism diets won&#8217;t help, and it&#8217;s difficult to pinpoint a specific food because he eats/mouths everything.</p>
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		<title>By: brian</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52912</link>
		<dc:creator>brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52912</guid>
		<description>MariaLu asked: &quot;Do we need measles or other neurothropic virus presence/replication to produce an inital immune permanent change that may be related to some inflammatory /other situation in gut that affects brain?&quot;

It’s interesting that you asked that question in the context of a discussion of Mady Horning’s work because it happens that Dr. Horning has been interested in prenatal rather than postnatal infection models (e.g., Borna virus infection in mice) of autism for years; that basic idea is supported by numerous publications including recent work that suggests that the immune response to prenatal infection, and not infection per se, may trigger some neurodevelopment changes that can produce autism. Other work, of course, overwhelmingly supports the genetic basis of autism, but the important point is that the anatomical changes observed in the brains of autistic individuals (whether triggered by environmental insults such as prenatal infection/immune activity or prenatal chemical exposure or by genetics)  are underway years before a child ever receives an MMR vaccine.   The “temporal association” of MMR vaccination with the diagnosis of autism has been terribly misleading. It’s obviously harder for parents to associate behavior with unseen defects (in, for example, white matter, minicolumn architecture, or in the cerebellum) that began in fetal development than to remember that something happened about the time that they first noticed the results of those prenatal problems. The problem with your question is that it ignores the clear evidence that the observed neurodevelopmental changes begin long before exposure to measles virus via vaccination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MariaLu asked: &#8220;Do we need measles or other neurothropic virus presence/replication to produce an inital immune permanent change that may be related to some inflammatory /other situation in gut that affects brain?&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting that you asked that question in the context of a discussion of Mady Horning&#8217;s work because it happens that Dr. Horning has been interested in prenatal rather than postnatal infection models (e.g., Borna virus infection in mice) of autism for years; that basic idea is supported by numerous publications including recent work that suggests that the immune response to prenatal infection, and not infection per se, may trigger some neurodevelopment changes that can produce autism. Other work, of course, overwhelmingly supports the genetic basis of autism, but the important point is that the anatomical changes observed in the brains of autistic individuals (whether triggered by environmental insults such as prenatal infection/immune activity or prenatal chemical exposure or by genetics)  are underway years before a child ever receives an <span class="caps">MMR</span> vaccine.   The &#8220;temporal association&#8221; of <span class="caps">MMR</span> vaccination with the diagnosis of autism has been terribly misleading. It&#8217;s obviously harder for parents to associate behavior with unseen defects (in, for example, white matter, minicolumn architecture, or in the cerebellum) that began in fetal development than to remember that something happened about the time that they first noticed the results of those prenatal problems. The problem with your question is that it ignores the clear evidence that the observed neurodevelopmental changes begin long before exposure to measles virus via vaccination.</p>
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		<title>By: Ms. Clark</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52902</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms. Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:04:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52902</guid>
		<description>I think one of the interviewer-on-the-streets was from New Zealand.

You know, New Zealand, it&#039;s that little island country just south of North Korea.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the interviewer-on-the-streets was from New Zealand.</p>
<p>You know, New Zealand, it&#8217;s that little island country just south of North Korea.  :-)</p>
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		<title>By: alyric</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52900</link>
		<dc:creator>alyric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52900</guid>
		<description>Strange, but the interviewer for the general knowledege quiz sounded like an Aussie.  Now, if he&#039;d done this on the streets of Sydney, would the results have been different?  Probably not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strange, but the interviewer for the general knowledege quiz sounded like an Aussie.  Now, if he&#8217;d done this on the streets of Sydney, would the results have been different?  Probably not.</p>
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		<title>By: Regan</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52899</link>
		<dc:creator>Regan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52899</guid>
		<description>Sullivan,
Are you still waiting for the mighty response from Mr. Olmsted?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sullivan,<br />
Are you still waiting for the mighty response from Mr. Olmsted?</p>
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		<title>By: Ms. Clark</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52897</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms. Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52897</guid>
		<description>&quot;I&#039;m listening to what you&#039;re saying but I only hear what I WANT to.&quot;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEP7uti0PDw&amp;

Wanna bet she&#039;s an antivaxer, too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m listening to what you&#8217;re saying but I only hear what <span class="caps">I WANT</span> to.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEP7uti0PDw&#38" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEP7uti0PDw&#38</a>;</p>
<p>Wanna bet she&#8217;s an antivaxer, too?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ms. Clark</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52896</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms. Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52896</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04f2UJOPJfQ

What is the currency in the United Kingdom?

&quot;Queen Elizabeth&#039;s money? That&#039;s all I know.&quot;

Name a country that begins with &quot;U&quot;?
&quot;Uh, Utopia!&quot;

What&#039;s the religion of Israel?  

&quot;Catholic probably.&quot;

How many sides does a triangle have?

&quot;No sides, Uh, One.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04f2UJOPJfQ" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04f2UJOPJfQ</a></p>
<p>What is the currency in the United Kingdom?</p>
<p>&#8220;Queen Elizabeth&#8217;s money? That&#8217;s all I know.&#8221;</p>
<p>Name a country that begins with &#8220;U&#8221;?<br />
&#8220;Uh, Utopia!&#8221;</p>
<p>What&#8217;s the religion of Israel?</p>
<p>&#8220;Catholic probably.&#8221;</p>
<p>How many sides does a triangle have?</p>
<p>&#8220;No sides, Uh, One.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Ms. Clark</title>
		<link>http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/09/experts-comment-on-hornig-et-als-mmr-paper/#comment-52895</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms. Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1301#comment-52895</guid>
		<description>Maria, 

Why don&#039;t you tell us what the experts said when you asked them about a mutated Edmonton strain?

Why would it matter?  If the Edmonton vaccine strain can mutate so can any other strain.  You want them to test autistic kids for every possible variant of measles, mutated kinds that have never been found in the wild, maybe because they might exist?

That parents are not all intelligent about science is easy to prove.  Most Americans will tell you that Argentina is probably somewhere in Africa! 
http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2006/05/parents_our_kid.html
Many of them can&#039;t tell you if the moon revolves around the earth. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnFb1RpK5Qw&amp; 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMvL6h36rw&amp;
Many of them have no idea what a virus is except that it&#039;s probably a bad thing.  
Americans have signed a petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw

I am asking you not to plant useless fears into peoples heads because you want to &quot;talk&quot; about some arcane idea, one of a million that have occurred to you as possibly being related to autism, all of them documented with a dozen abstracts from pubmed. I am not ordering you to do anything, just asking you to think of the consequences of planting fears in people&#039;s heads and the utter pointlessness of asking  amateurs esoteric questions about minutia that only an life-long expert would be likely to be able to answer.  

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s an appropriate thing to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maria,</p>
<p>Why don&#8217;t you tell us what the experts said when you asked them about a mutated Edmonton strain?</p>
<p>Why would it matter?  If the Edmonton vaccine strain can mutate so can any other strain.  You want them to test autistic kids for every possible variant of measles, mutated kinds that have never been found in the wild, maybe because they might exist?</p>
<p>That parents are not all intelligent about science is easy to prove.  Most Americans will tell you that Argentina is probably somewhere in Africa!<br />
<a href="http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2006/05/parents_our_kid.html" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/.....r_kid.html</a><br />
Many of them can&#8217;t tell you if the moon revolves around the earth.<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnFb1RpK5Qw&#38" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnFb1RpK5Qw&#38</a>;<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMvL6h36rw&#38" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMvL6h36rw&#38</a>;<br />
Many of them have no idea what a virus is except that it&#8217;s probably a bad thing.<br />
Americans have signed a petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide.<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw</a></p>
<p>I am asking you not to plant useless fears into peoples heads because you want to &#8220;talk&#8221; about some arcane idea, one of a million that have occurred to you as possibly being related to autism, all of them documented with a dozen abstracts from pubmed. I am not ordering you to do anything, just asking you to think of the consequences of planting fears in people&#8217;s heads and the utter pointlessness of asking  amateurs esoteric questions about minutia that only an life-long expert would be likely to be able to answer.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s an appropriate thing to do.</p>
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