Comments on: Kirby launches torpedo at Verstraeten, sinks Geier http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/ Autism news and opinion Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:52:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: We know what the false prophets think; now what? « Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptic blogs of the day http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53694 We know what the false prophets think; now what? « Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptic blogs of the day Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:35:07 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53694 [...] But the problem is—-based on how the antivaccinationists have responded to the evidence so far—-they’re not going to respond to the science with science. Instead, expect full-page ads (like this one) in which there’s talk of not being “anti-vaccine” but “pro-vaccine-safety.” Expect a lot more moving of the goalposts as autism gets rebranded: So the link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism does not seem “so strong”—then it must be something else, like aluminum. In other words, don’t expect an actual discussion of the studies Dr. Offit cites but succinct slogans with just enough punch (”autism is treatable,” “green our vaccines”), criticisms of “conflicts of interest,” cries of the limitations of the data. [...] [...] But the problem is—-based on how the antivaccinationists have responded to the evidence so far—-they’re not going to respond to the science with science. Instead, expect full-page ads (like this one) in which there’s talk of not being “anti-vaccine” but “pro-vaccine-safety.” Expect a lot more moving of the goalposts as autism gets rebranded: So the link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism does not seem “so strong”—then it must be something else, like aluminum. In other words, don’t expect an actual discussion of the studies Dr. Offit cites but succinct slogans with just enough punch (”autism is treatable,” “green our vaccines”), criticisms of “conflicts of interest,” cries of the limitations of the data. [...]

]]> By: We know what the false prophets think; now what? [The ScienceBlogs Book Club] http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53690 We know what the false prophets think; now what? [The ScienceBlogs Book Club] Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:00:21 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53690 [...] But the problem is—-based on how the antivaccinationists have responded to the evidence so far—-they’re not going to respond to the science with science. Instead, expect full-page ads (like this one) in which there’s talk of not being “anti-vaccine” but “pro-vaccine-safety.” Expect a lot more moving of the goalposts as autism gets rebranded: So the link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism does not seem “so strong”—then it must be something else, like aluminum. In other words, don’t expect an actual discussion of the studies Dr. Offit cites but succinct slogans with just enough punch (”autism is treatable,” “green our vaccines”), criticisms of “conflicts of interest,” cries of the limitations of the data. [...] [...] But the problem is—-based on how the antivaccinationists have responded to the evidence so far—-they’re not going to respond to the science with science. Instead, expect full-page ads (like this one) in which there’s talk of not being “anti-vaccine” but “pro-vaccine-safety.” Expect a lot more moving of the goalposts as autism gets rebranded: So the link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism does not seem “so strong”—then it must be something else, like aluminum. In other words, don’t expect an actual discussion of the studies Dr. Offit cites but succinct slogans with just enough punch (”autism is treatable,” “green our vaccines”), criticisms of “conflicts of interest,” cries of the limitations of the data. [...]

]]> By: Joseph http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53640 Joseph Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:18:44 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53640 <blockquote>Hence Young and Geier had no access to records at the individual level, making their study ecological, that is, group level only and therefore not a reliable study because of the aforementioned problems with the reliability of the data. Correct?</blockquote> Well, according to the CDC, this is what the VSD contains: "The VSD project includes a large linked database that uses administrative data sources at each MCO. Each participating site gathers data on vaccination (vaccine type, date of vaccination, concurrent vaccinations), medical outcomes (outpatient visits, inpatient visits, urgent care visits), birth data, and census data." What I understand happened is that the Geiers had data in multiple files, and they couldn't link them at the individual level. It's not clear to me if this is because they are not given the means to do this to protect patient confidentiality or what. In any case, I don't see the point of using VSD for an ecological study, when you can probably obtain data on population-level health outcomes and vaccination rates by other means.
Hence Young and Geier had no access to records at the individual level, making their study ecological, that is, group level only and therefore not a reliable study because of the aforementioned problems with the reliability of the data. Correct?

Well, according to the CDC, this is what the VSD contains: “The VSD project includes a large linked database that uses administrative data sources at each MCO. Each participating site gathers data on vaccination (vaccine type, date of vaccination, concurrent vaccinations), medical outcomes (outpatient visits, inpatient visits, urgent care visits), birth data, and census data.”

What I understand happened is that the Geiers had data in multiple files, and they couldn’t link them at the individual level. It’s not clear to me if this is because they are not given the means to do this to protect patient confidentiality or what.

In any case, I don’t see the point of using VSD for an ecological study, when you can probably obtain data on population-level health outcomes and vaccination rates by other means.

]]> By: alyric http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53639 alyric Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:22:55 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53639 Joseph, I'm somewhat confused by your post and just when I thought I had it all straight:) From what I understood, the problems with VSD is that a significant proportion of the information is not reliable due to input error and the way around that is to verify through individual medical records, which is what they did with Versatraetan 2004 and lo and behold, no significant correlations between TCVs and autism. As I also understood it, the medical charts are not part of the VSD. Why would they be? Hence Young and Geier had no access to records at the individual level, making their study ecological, that is, group level only and therefore not a reliable study because of the aforementioned problems with the reliability of the data. Correct? Joseph,

I’m somewhat confused by your post and just when I thought I had it all straight:)

From what I understood, the problems with VSD is that a significant proportion of the information is not reliable due to input error and the way around that is to verify through individual medical records, which is what they did with Versatraetan 2004 and lo and behold, no significant correlations between TCVs and autism. As I also understood it, the medical charts are not part of the VSD. Why would they be? Hence Young and Geier had no access to records at the individual level, making their study ecological, that is, group level only and therefore not a reliable study because of the aforementioned problems with the reliability of the data. Correct?

]]> By: Joseph http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53637 Joseph Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:22:15 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53637 It wouldn't be so bad that the Young-Geier study is ecological if they hadn't made up data, and had a minimum of control for confounding. Of course, then they wouldn't find an effect with statistical significance. What's odd is that you can do ecological studies of that nature without using VSD. The strength of VSD is that it has individual-level information. The only reason Young-Geier was done that way is so they could say, "Hey! We did a VSD study!" It wouldn’t be so bad that the Young-Geier study is ecological if they hadn’t made up data, and had a minimum of control for confounding. Of course, then they wouldn’t find an effect with statistical significance.

What’s odd is that you can do ecological studies of that nature without using VSD. The strength of VSD is that it has individual-level information. The only reason Young-Geier was done that way is so they could say, “Hey! We did a VSD study!”

]]> By: Tom http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53636 Tom Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:36:06 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53636 No, the person is not a lobbyist. Rather, he is an underpaid MD serving in government to make sure that lobbyists like David Kirby don't mislead Congress on important medical issues. No, the person is not a lobbyist. Rather, he is an underpaid MD serving in government to make sure that lobbyists like David Kirby don’t mislead Congress on important medical issues.

]]> By: Epi Wonk http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53627 Epi Wonk Wed, 08 Oct 2008 03:23:11 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53627 It's not at all uncommon for congressional staffers to be MD's, since congress deals with so many health-related issues. In this case, the MD is a staffer for Waxman. It’s not at all uncommon for congressional staffers to be MD’s, since congress deals with so many health-related issues. In this case, the MD is a staffer for Waxman.

]]> By: lacshmiybarra http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2008/10/kirby-launches-torpedo-at-verstraeten-sinks-geier/#comment-53625 lacshmiybarra Wed, 08 Oct 2008 03:08:52 +0000 http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1494#comment-53625 Just curious because it seems really odd. Since when did MD's become congressional staffers? Is that considered like a step up or is the person actually a lobbyist? Who's congressional staffer was he? Just curious because it seems really odd. Since when did MD’s become congressional staffers? Is that considered like a step up or is the person actually a lobbyist? Who’s congressional staffer was he?

]]>