• Author: Guest Blogger
• Comments: 504

• Autism
• EoH Group
• Extreme biomed

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504 Responses to “Truth and Consequences – The Anti-Vaccination Movement Exacts a Price”

1. 
   David N. Brown
   September 23rd, 2009
   06:55:14

   My “Evil Possum” site has two articles, “Frankenpharma” and “Pointless, Useless and Dangerous”, dealing with the ApotheCure and Lee Silsby compounding pharmacies. Direct federal regulation of compounding pharmacies deserves to be a high priority in health care reform. Meanwhile, I would frankly suggest attacking the “cure” industry by reporting the actions of physicians AND parents as child abuse. In the case of the Geiers’ Lupron protocol (“Even Worse”) there is actually a clear precedent for criminal prosecution.

2. 
   Jennifer L.
   September 23rd, 2009
   11:23:53

   This article is ridiculous. I am shocked that you’ve even posted something like this.

3. 
   Jennifer L.
   September 23rd, 2009
   11:36:26

   what a coward you are you post under “guest blogger”! show yourself!

4. 
   KWombles
   September 23rd, 2009
   12:07:36

   Jennifer, if you aren’t horrified by the majority of the words that the mother quoted in the piece wrote, then it is you who are ridiculous. This is a woman in dire need of intervention and a child who cannot be even remotely considered to be in a healthy, safe environment.

   If you can’t fully support your contention that this blog post is ridiculous and why as well as why you are shocked it was published, if you can’t see that what is shocking is this mother’s words, this mother’s actions, then there is something seriously wrong with how you see this world.

5. 
   Guest Blogger
   September 23rd, 2009
   12:14:15

   Ridiculous? In what way?

   I can assure you that I have documentation and links for every statement that “Mary” has made. Out of consideration for her privacy I have not included these links. I’ve changed her name and her son’s name. I don’t want to personally embarrass her. She’s clearly a well-meaning person. She’s just fallen into the clutches of the autism biomedical treatment yahoo groups. And into the clutches of the greedy quacks.

   “Mary” herself posts under a pseudonym.

6. 
   Jeanette
   September 23rd, 2009
   12:49:09

   Unfortunately, I know a real person by the name of Mary who not only does these things to her son, but her daughter as well.
   I believe that KWombles is correct…these “mothers” need the interventions.
   My “Mary” has written on similar websites that she is disappointed in her son because she was hoping he would be recovered by kindergarten, like his sister.
   My heart is breaking for these children and what they are put through. What a way to spend your childhood

7. 
   James
   September 23rd, 2009
   12:55:40

   I thought it might be interesting to add my view point, as someone who grew up with undiagnosed Asperger’s Syndrome. I know how it feels to live with an Autism Spectrum Disorder.

   I can easily see how Mary fell into the sphere of pseudo science and potential charlatans in a quest to help her son. After all, who doesn’t want the best for their child, and won’t explore all avenues in the search for answers?

   I don’t want to fan any flames in the war over whether Autism is an inherited condition or not – clearly that is for each person to decide based on the evidence available to them. Unfortunately, however, if you immerse yourself in online groups such as those mentioned above, it’s very easy to just get presented – brainwashed almost – into seeing just one side of the story.

   I was frankly stunned and saddened at the huge variety of treatments that Saul has received over the course of his childhood thus far.

   To me it just feels so unnecessary.

   I feel Mary’s pain in the opening paragraph – autism really can place a huge burden on families, but do you know what? Acceptance of the condition goes a very long way towards helping.

   Taking a step back and saying, “Ok, so Saul has an ASD. What sort of problems is this going to cause him, and what support can we offer to help minimise the problems?” really can and does help. Enormously.

   I can’t, however see how subjecting the child to a huge regime of differing treatments is actually helping.

   How must Saul feel? Like he is a very broken person, because despite his Mother’s desperate search for cures, he is still not cured? That’s most likely how I’d feel in that situation. And you know what? That would make me feel like an abject failure. I really feel for Saul. (An Aspie empathising with someone? Yes. It happens. All the time. Even if I find it difficult to express face to face.)

   I have a degree from a good university, a job, a wife and two kids. Has Asperger’s stopped me from leading a relatively normal life? No. Has it made my life difficult and been an often bewildering ride? Yes.

   Try and look at the positives. A diagnosis of an ASD need not ruin anyone’s life.

8. 
   Kev
   September 23rd, 2009
   13:23:50

   Jennifer – Editorial policy here at LBRB is that we do not care what name a person uses, we care what they say and how accurate what they present as facts are indeed facts. You might be a man named Ron for all anyone knows – or cares.

   James – its always great to hear the voices of autistic people. I’m glad you stopped by and gave your considered and thoughtful opinion.

9. 
   This is ridiculous
   September 23rd, 2009
   13:38:58

   Hey Kev, it is editorial policy too to allow a poster to lurk on a closed group then copy and paste another’s words? And is also editorial policy to not allow response comments when they don’t fit with your views???

   I don’t have a child with Autism, I have a child who was on their way thou. I have a child with severe food allergies. I have a child almost all doctors in different hospitals and clinics had no answers for. The only thing that has helped my child with his allergies was diet and supplements. If it wasn’t for these parents trying to help their child who suffers from things like Autism or ADHD I have no idea where I would be. I owe them everything because of if not for them I would have had no help.

   My 1st comment post I was trying to convey to you all this post is ridiculous because this poster lurked on a closed group and copied and pasted a post and shared it with an open forum. It doesn’t matter what I do or don’t agree with on “Mary”’s posts or anyone elses…the point I’m trying to make is it is morally wrong to lurk on a group and steal a mother’s words and attack her for trying to do anything to help her child.

   Go attack the crack-head parents, child molesters, etc. Leave these poor people alone It is wrong on soooo many levels. Instead…do some research and show this group of people evidence of your claims, please!

10. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:45:31

    What I find sad is that you have nothing better to do with your time than search out 6 years of posts by one person. Do you have your own child with autism at home you can be spending time with? Or how about reaching out to this mother privately and offering advice rather than condemning her publicly.

11. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:47:47

    Jennifer – you’re being silly. No ones words have been stolen, they’ve been highlighted fully within context and published. If you have such an issue with anonymity why do you defend the idea of closed access groups at all?

    Its not morally wrong to quote another person. It is however morally wrong to ‘treat’ children as guinea pigs. Mary’s own words. If you think thats an OK thing to do then I’m so glad I don’t know you.

12. 
    Socrates
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:49:20

    This is rid…,

    Seems like a perfectly reasonable exercise in investigative journalism to me.

    It’s wrong on soooo many levels to think parents should be able to do anything they wish to their children, without comment nor criticism, if “trying to do anything to help her child”.

    I’ve no doubt Scientologist feel bringing their children up in that ‘Church’ is doing the best for them.

13. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:50:29

    Stacey – Guest Blogger is parent to an autistic person yes. I am too. What I find sad is that no one who knew Mary on these groups said ‘woah Mary, you’re behaving like someone with Munchausen’s Syndrome. Stop!’.

14. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:50:43

    Kev, children with all sorts of disorders are given meds to try to help their symptoms to help them lead more normal lives. Many times these are off label. People are used as guinea pigs every day. Any new med prescription or OTC, any new vaccine, anything new….someone is a guinea pig.

15. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:53:54

    What if Mary had test results showing her son’s immune system was deficient and he need the IVIG, that he had a yeast over growth and needed diflucan, nystatin and probiotics (which are all over the place as “healthy additivies” to common foods), and blood/urine/hair tests showing heavy metal toxicity.

    If a typical child showed the same test results, would the mother be wrong in treating them?

16. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:53:57

    Stacey, take a look at the list Saul was forced to take. Now name me one person you know who takes meds even approaching that list. Off label use is one thing. That child had more in common with force fed foix gras.

17. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    13:56:05

    Stacey – that would depend on where the test results came from. If it was one of the labs that support the quacks (Great Plains etc) then I would afford them no weight at all.

18. 
    Joseph
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:02:09

    My 1st comment post I was trying to convey to you all this post is ridiculous because this poster lurked on a closed group and copied and pasted a post and shared it with an open forum.

    FWIW, those groups are not closed groups. Emails sent there are not like emails sent privately. The EOHarm description explicitly states:

    While the EOHarm list is membership moderated, it is a political and public forum. All postings to this list should be considered public, and not private or confidential statements.

19. 
    Vindaloo
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:02:24

    Stacey – You’re equating the opinion of a trained professional mainstream doctor to that of a bunch of frantic groupthink mothers via the internet. The kid in the email quotes is being abused. Get over yourself and think about recalibrating your mommy instinct.

20. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:09:27

    you’re talking over 6 years Kev. And for all you know the kid took something once and never again, or for a week and never again. The writer is making it sound like this is what the kid takes every single day.

    And why this one person. There are hundreds, thousands even on the yahoo lists. And this one seems on the verge of a breakdown as per the first post dated last month. Why not contact the mom privately and offer help, rather than post something like this that could really just push her off the edge. Why not talk her off the ledge instead of daring her to jump for being so horrible and trying to help her kid in ways you don’t approve of.

21. 
    Joeymom
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:14:04

    What really caught my attention was the attitude towards special education. Mary indicated that being in special education precluded a child growing into his or her potential, graduating, entering college, etc. I teach college-level courses, and I have several students who have IEPs still through the school system- yes, that means they are taking college classes, are still considered secondary-school students and receive special education services! Special education is about providing kids with supports they need to learn, not about them languishing in some hidden nether-world.

    What Mary really needs is a respite worker. Unfortunately, they are incredibly hard to get. After all, who will pay for it? We don’t do biomed, but even so, speech therapy is $90 an hour, occupational therapy is $150 an hour, and ABA was running us $95 an hour (I understand its higher now). Medical insurance doesn’t cover respite. Are you working to pay for therapies? That income often precludes you from qualifying for waivers that would help with respite. Cost of respite here? $40 an hour, 2-hour minimum. How often can people afford that? Yet having such a worker 2-3 times per week for those minimum 2 hours would probably make a huge difference to Mary, and ultimately to her children.

22. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:15:37

    And for all you know Stacey they were taken every day. I know a guy who gave his ASD child over 20 ‘treatments’ every day. And even if its only 1 at a time, thats 1 too many for dangerous treatments with no established efficacy.

    As for why this person, ask Guest Blogger. And how do you know Mary hasn’t been contacted? And even if she had, would you be able to be talked down by the likes of ‘cowards’ like Guest Blogger (quoting Jennifer above) or would you stick to your guns?

    The reason this post was published here (as oppose to written) was to highlight the frightening amount of hurtful group think that goes on at childrens expense. If its helped disuade just one parent from these extremist groups then Guest Blogger has done a great thing.

23. 
    christel king
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:20:06

    wow are you so off base! first off if your child had cancer or some other incurable disease would you not do search for answers? biomedical is working for THOUSANDS of families out there bring GREAT results! autism has no answers presented by mainstream medicine! and yes there are aspies out there that can fuction great but this child you are speaking of is NOT aspie clearly he is much lower functioning! I myself have a son on spectrum who was dxed as low functioning autism at age 22 months. after having a reaction to vaccinations at 12 months old. he was tested before hand with parents as teachers doing developmental testing every few months and scored 6 months advanced just weeks prior to his 1 year old shots. with in 7-9 hours after his vaccinations developed a seizer disorder and lost all his lang, couldn’t respond to his name, play with toys, and lost motor skills, and became extreamly limited in what he would eat (ending up only doing a gallon of milk a day, and eating ONLY gram crackers and animal crackers.) he was having 80 plus seizers a day and sat around drooling and spinning a phone for 8 plus hours and if you stopped him he would start bashing his head on the floor, walls, tables what ever he could find and would knock himself out. we retested him 2 weeks AFTER his shots in shock of what had happened to our son and his loss and on retesting tested out at 2-4 months age development, loosing 14-16 months development with his vaccinations, and the ER log even put vaccation reaction in our chart! 8 month later speach therapist were ready to throw in the towel, and an OT handed us a book which we read cover to cover called biomedical treatments of autism and PDD by dr shaw and started the diet the next day. in 24 hours our sons self abuse stopped, eye contact came back and seizers stopped! the day we tried DMG our speech therapist ASKED Us what changed because our son went from a 2 min attention span to 45 min. and in 8 hours had 8 words. on second dose he had his first sentence of love ya mama. our sons dx od autism was reduced to PDD and only qualified by 1 point for that in oct of 2007. and the label they told us could go either way from PDD to NT (nurotypical Normal) yet due to PANDAS we hold the label so that if he regresses we can still access services. which by the way your “mary” child sounds like a classic PANDAS kid as well.

    trying to find answers for your kid is BEING A GREAT PARENT! not resting to improve the quality of life is our job! we coud have just accepted our sons autism, and he would have a miserable and sad life! our choice to branch out and find answers, and solutions to be willing to go into debt has made all the difference in our sons life. he is mainstreamed and has friends, relationships with his siblings, plays with toys like other kids now, not sitting a spinning a phone all day. he can carry on conversations with others, play games with people, bath himself, is potty trained, learning to cook, clean, and care for himself and help with younger kids and learning independant skills that would have others wise not been part of his life and indendance woudl have never been there with out the sacrifice of being a family and exploring the great options of biomedical! I pray many families find HOPE In the world that is out there. and it doesn’t lay in being run over by autism just accepting it! it’s in fighting it and finding a way to help your child have a better life. after all why is it that therapies are ok to give and help or med but never natuarals. I always find that humorous!

24. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:21:50

    and if Mary is just this close to killing herself, and does so because of it, is it worth it

25. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:28:02

    And if she kills herself because none of these fantastic ‘treatments’ did a damn thing except hurt her boy and make her broke was it worth it? Put that question to DAN or Andy Cutler eh?

26. 
    kathleen
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:45:55

    I agree with much of what James says..Who doesn’t want the best for their child? There is a line that is getting blurred though..when best for their child really means best for the parent. I understand that line..I have stood on it. Thankfully, I didn’t have a computer at the time.When my oldest(now almost 11) was diagnosed with PDD, I had absolutely no idea of what to do and of how to help him. I remember feeling very powerless-here I was his mother-the person who is supposed to take care of him and guide him and I didn’t know how. Had I had access to the internet..I most probably would have been lead to the above mentioned sites. I like to think that I would have still worked with my boy the way that we have instead of biomedically-but honestly can’t say what would have happened. I was so eager to do all that I could-would I have been swayed? I wonder how many parents-who have the best of intentions for their children wind up being sucked into that vortex of woo? Because at first glance it can appear to be very convincing. My heart goes out to the newly diagnosed-there are a lot of scary sites out there..
    I found The woman “Mary’s” words to be horrifying. She is so consumed by the thought of “recovery” she doesn’t see what is in front of her-a human being, not a project, or a set of symptoms-a person. I wonder how her son views himself.
    I think that it would be wonderful if a site were created to aid in the “recovery” of parents.

27. 
    Emily
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:51:22

    I don’t even have to read the words on these comments to know who the woo acolytes are. Just look for those exclamation points and all caps.

    This is a fantastic tracing of (a) the development and diagnosis of autism and (b) a fairly typical response on the part of a subgroup of parents to their child’s diagnosis. I also like the yahoo group summaries. I note that this child’s signs manifested at age 7 months, based on the mother’s descriptions. I also note the frequent use of “I, I, my, I, my, I.” Who’s it all about, really? That interesting child who obviously really needs his mother there, loving him rather than shoving pills down his throat or packing him into a hyperbaric chamber? Not really. Yes, I’m being judgmental. This kind of stuff is just painful to read. It makes me ache for the one person in all of this who has no choices.

28. 
    Mjoystewar
    September 23rd, 2009
    14:54:58

    I would think that there are alot of “Mary’s” posts are left out and that you haven’t gotten the whole picture. Until you have a child with autism and feel the full weight of what that means you have know idea. Until you have seen the changes from a child who won’t even look at you to one that says “Luff you, Mommy” within 2 days of starting the GFCF diet, you don’t know. Until you have worked day by day for little victories and then added a supplement and seen huge victories, you don’t understand. Or a mom that is desperate for some sleep and at the ropes end try melatonin with her child and can help that child understand how important that sleep is for everyone. What you didn’t post is the hours of individual one on one work helping her child learn things that didn’t come naturally, like what a toilet is. After years and year of cleaning up messes that would make anyone throw up. Don’t discount the changes she and probably other saw soon after she added some of these supplements. Each cure or treatment for a disease has come under attack at some time. Diabetics have to give themselves insulin, Cancer patients undergo radiation with huge side effects. Para-paraplegics undergo strenuous day to day physical therapy. Where are the “quacks” that came up with that stuff?
    Why is it is so hard to think that possibly through understanding the kind of foods we put into our bodies, and trying to add the nutrients that our bodies need, or killing harmful bacteria or viruses, or giving some extra time to a child to help them learn is bad? When you post this type of article, please include some real compassion and make sure that you have the whole story. Don’t think for a moment that this child was not loved and cared for. Mary already has more guilt than you can every imagine all by herself. Judging the mother does more harm than good and it is her child that pays for it. As for vaccines, why is is so hard to imagine that when you inject large quantities of different substances into the body that SOME individuals might react in a negative way? I have not heard one parent say I don’t want to give my child vaccines because I want them to have the measles. We want, just like you do, to be careful of what we put in our children’s bodies. Time will tell if this woman is a fanatic or progressive for her time.

29. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    15:35:06

    Stacey wrote: “you’re talking over 6 years Kev. And for all you know the kid took something once and never again, or for a week and never again. The writer is making it sound like this is what the kid takes every single day.”

    Well, “Mary’s” son has had, by her own admission, at least 50 rounds of Andrew Cutler chelation protocol. Let me quote from the FAQ on the A-M site: “DMSA or LA must be given in small, frequent doses (every 3-4 hours, even at night) over several days to be effective. . .Chelation should be done in cycles of at 3 to 7 days on the chelator, followed by at least as many days off as a rest period.” So, let’s take an average round of 10 days (5 days on, 5 days off). 50 rounds comes out 500 days, or well over a YEAR of continuous chelation. And that’s not including the DAN! (CK2) protocol, which Mary was also following.

    Mary owns her OWN HBOT machine. Do you think she bought that so that she could only put her kid into it once?

30. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    15:41:31

    Myjoystewar wrote: “I would think that there are alot of “Mary’s” posts are left out and that you haven’t gotten the whole picture. Until you have a child with autism and feel the full weight of what that means you have know idea.”

    Well, Myjoystewar, I do have a child with an ASD.

    And I have read a very large number of Mary’s posts. Her love for her child comes through very clearly, as indicated in one of the quotes I posted. But what I don’t see in any of Mary’s posts is that these “treatments” are really helping her child. In fact, he seems to be in a much poorer state than he ever was before she started “treating” him. And make no mistake, her son is a wonderful kid, with a lot of gifts. He doesn’t deserve this.

31. 
    Jenny
    September 23rd, 2009
    15:44:41

    There are always 2 sides to a story. I think it is wrong to cut and paste someone else’s words without their permission. I think vaccines can injure some children and that injury may look like autism. I think my child does not fall into that category. I am not anti-vaccine, but I do think vaccines need to be looked at more carefully. Not everyone fits a standard of care and what may help one person may be harmful to another. I don’t want to cure myself or my son of autism. I would like to be as healthy as possible. I have a not well understood auto immune disease, for which mainstream medicine has few answers or treatments. I use biomedical interventions for my son and myself. I do it because it works. I stumbled across this journey quite by accident, not because I read some website and took medical advice from a stranger on the internet. My doc suggested dietary changes to help my nursing baby and it worked for both of us. I see nothing wrong with eating natural, whole foods and taking the nutrients that may be deficient in your diet. I see nothing wrong with treatments to address real medical problems that seem to be ignored simply because a child has autism. It is medical neglect to ignore chronic health problems simply because a child is autistic. I actually replied to the August 2009 post that this is all centered around and suggested that she help her self so she could be the best for her child. I have been through dark times parenting 2 very difficult special needs children. I never stopped loving them and I never did anything for them that I did not research, seek opinions from medical staff and trusted friends, and decide on my own motherly instincts what was the right thing to do. I don’t have to prove myself to anyone. My husband and I are the ones who choose what is right for our children, not the author of this blog, not the government, not my mother-in-law, not my neighbor, not a yahoo group’s members.

32. 
    Liz Ditz
    September 23rd, 2009
    15:55:01

    What Guest Blogger did was substantiate some of the arguments made earlier. A noteworthy example was written by Shannon des Roches Rosa, the mother of a boy with autism. The Rosa family tried the biomedical approach,and gradually backed away. Shannon published “Identifying and Avoiding Autism Cults” at BlogHer http://www.blogher.com/identif.....tism-cults

    The most prominent purveyors of autism cult-think are Generation Rescue and “The Daily Web Newspaper of the Autism Epidemic,” Age of Autism. Both ignore the one truth about autism—that no one yet knows its cause—and position themselves as autism’s truth-speakers, as fonts of non-compromised autism knowledge. They inappropriately promote biomedical approaches for all autistic children, undermine public confidence in vaccines, and perpetuate big pharma conspiracy theories. They support their claims not through evidence, but with testimonials and exceptions. They make scientists and critical thinkers rage with indignation. They aggressively denounce skeptics, and foster a culture of righteous true believers (just click on a few AoA posts and check out the comments). They rarely talk about support and love for autistic children in the present, and focus instead on theoretical future non-autistic kids.

    Another “recovered” biomedical parent is Jim Laidler, MD. He published Through the Looking Glass: My Involvement with Autism Quackery in 2004. http://www.autism-watch.org/about/bio2.shtml

    Ever since I began the Herculean (some might say Quixotic) task of exposing the quackery and pseudoscience surrounding autism, I have had people ask me, “Are you the same Jim Laidler who used to talk about chelation at autism conferences?” To them, the idea that I could once have been an impassioned supporter of the very thing I am now trying to debunk is hard to fathom. Well, everyone has something in their past that they are embarrassed about—and that is mine.

    I consider myself to be a very scientific person. While growing up, I was skeptical and inquiring and naturally gravitated to the sciences. My first brushes with pseudoscience and quackery in medical school left me convinced that “it could never happen to me.” I was sure that my background and training would keep me from making the same mistake as “those people.” I was wrong.

    Contrary to what JenniferL, This is ridiculous & Stacey wrote, Guest Blogger was doing the sort of patient, in-depth investigative reporting that is so absent from Age of Autism.

33. 
    This is ridiculous
    September 23rd, 2009
    15:57:42

    In response to “guest blogger” or let me rename you…Lurker. You say this…

    “The GFCF diet appears relatively harmless, however, it can result in weakening of bones due to nutritional deficiencies.”

    A woman I know, who’s daughter is undiagnosed Autism, has recently had a visit with her own doctor, for herself, and that doc (now mind you an “regular” (MD) doctor) said he wanted to run blood work to check this woman for food allergies/sensitivities. After the results came back the tests showed she was sensitive to wheat, soy, corn, and casein. He told her her quality of life would be better if she changed her diet. He also suggested she take probiotics and digestive enzymes.

    I told her that in many cases if the parents have food allergies the child(ren) do as well. I also told her since you are going GF/CF/SF/CF maybe you could have your daughter try too, a little girl who most days refuses to eat the “normal” food that is presented to her.

    Her response…she was not going to deprive her daughter of McDonald’s kid meals.

    Now, that to me is an example of a selfish mother. Not the “Mary” you describe in your post.

    Lurker, I ask you…do you know anything about being gluten & casein free? Do you know the wonderful grains that are out there and how they are SO much more nutritional then wheat. Do you realize that most “normal” children eat only enriched wheat flour, corn, and rice grains? Do you know the stats on the obesity crisis that the American kids are dealing with? Do you know the nutritional value of a kids meal? Do you know sunflower seeds have way more calcium then milk? Do you know the amount of high fructose corn syrup that is consumed by most American kids each day?

    If my child is “sick” in any way. I will do everything I can do make sure they can be as well as they can be. If changing a diet is all you need, great. I feel bad for all YOUR children who could be helped by just a change of a diet. I feel bad that your children must suffer day in and day out because their parents are too ignorant to do anything to help them…its too bad for them you refuse to think outside of the box for the sake of YOUR children.

34. 
    Ruth/STL
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:04:59

    When my daughter was first diagnosed, I spent some time on the local support group site. When I asked how a clay bath could remove heavy metals through seven layers of dermis and through cell lipid bilayers I was attacked by people like Stacey. I had a PDD kid and degrees in tox and chemistry, so I was as welcome as Richard Dawkins at a revival meeting.

    We used meds for anxiety and sleeping, but always using the least amount possible and stopping as soon as we could. Treatment is one thing, forcing the whole GNC down a kids throat is another. We moved to a school district with excellent special ed. By 4th grade, she was mainstreamed with minimal support. She is now on the honor roll in 7th grade. She is still autistic. She is a great kid, but some people will never accept her right to a place in society because she is different.

    As someone who has worked in clinical trials at a cancer center and watched real IRB’s work, what is happening on these boards is a violation of the rights of human medical subjects. It is on the level of exorcism for epilepsy and prayer for diabetes.

35. 
    christel king
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:13:54

    wow you would rather this mom kill herself and leave the kid to themself with out a parent then for them to try and find answers and try things that may bring benifit! that in itself tells me of your character! your a sad person. EVERY parent wiether one of an autisic child or not has bad days and can lash out. using those words in a down time doesn’t make for a bad parent.

36. 
    Emily
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:24:59

    I wish there were cures for poor reading comprehension skills and an incapacity for critical analysis. Anyone know of any woo for that?

37. 
    Vindaloo
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:25:47

    Ruth – I hope people will take your comment to heart. It’s all about belief, gut instincts, and arrogance trumping science and reality for these people.

38. 
    Joseph
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:47:51

    Do you know sunflower seeds have way more calcium then milk?

    What is the original source of this information? Woo sites? That would be unfortunate.

    The recommended daily allowance of calcium is about 500mg for children 1 to 4, and 800mg for children 4 to 8. A cup of whole milk already provides about 400mg of calcium.

    According to this site (probably a woo site), a cup of sunflower seeds provides 174mg of calcium. Are we to suppose that children 4 to 8 should be eating 4 or 5 cups of sunflower seeds every day? That makes no sense.

    Autistic children are already not getting enough calcium (Herndon et al. 2009.) I don’t think it’s prudent to remove milk from the diet of autistic kids. Sometimes a diet is not “just a diet.”

39. 
    Chris
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:53:17

    I used to post on a listserv for my son’s disability for almost ten years. At first it was a great support group to find out about real therapies (like what to look for in a speech therapist), how to navigate special education red tape, what to expect from a neurologist and how to deal with insurance companies.

    Then it changed.

    Usually it was someone asking about primrose oil, or other essential oils. Then there would be a post about cranial sacral therapy… but it got worse. Lots of people were starting to post about the supplements they bought, and then the chelation advocates started to take over.

    At first it was okay to challenge these folks and ask for more evidence. Sometimes those of us who asked for evidence were thanked by new parents because they felt they weren’t doing all they could if they did not buy Bradstreet’s supplements or Buttar’s transdermal chelation cream.

    Then the advocates of the supplements got more strident and would post nasty grams to anyone who dared question them (one mom who had real medical credentials was told she did not know anything!). They even tried to get members who did not agree with them kicked out off the listserv. Finally, I had enough and just quit the listserv about five years ago.

    But before I did, I saw plenty of emails just like those posted above. The lists of supplements, the medications and the trips across multiple states to get invasive treatments like chelation though IV (this was before the child died in an office getting with that kind of treatment).

    What the Guest Blogger posted is not unique, and not even unique to autism. I bet if you looked into some of the bit.listserv.randomdisability that are archived in Google Groups (I used to look through them when it was Deja-News), or even Andy Cutler’s open Autism-Mercury group you will find similar posts by other parents.

40. 
    This is ridiculous
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:55:25

    Many of you express your concerns for “Mary” and her child. You are concerned with the long list of primarily NATURAL & NON-TOXIC vitamins and supplements that, according to you and science, have no proven effectiveness. If you are concerned with that long list then you should ALL agree that the below long list of known nero-toxins INJECTED repeatedly into children and babies all over the world should be cause for concern too, right???

    Albumin, egg (ovalbumin),Albumin, human serum,Albumin, or serum, bovine,Aluminum hydroxide,Aluminum phosphate,Aluminum potassium sulfate,Amino acids,Ammonium sulfate,Amphotericin B, Ascorbic acid
    Bactopeptone,Beta-proiolatone,Benezthonium chloride,Bovine protein
    Brilliant green,Calf skin,Chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture
    Chick kidney cells,Chicken embryo (fertilized egg) ,Chlortetracycline,Cohen-Wheeler, modified (pertussis component)
    DNA,Ethylenediamine-tetraacetic acid sodium (EDTA), Egg protein,Formaldehyde, formalin,Gelatin Gentamicin,Glutaraldehyde, Glycerin,Glycine,Human diploid tissue culture, MRC-5,Human diploid tissue culture, WI-38,Hydrochloric acid,Lactose,Lathinan medium derived from bovine casein,Linggoud Fenton media containing bovine extract, Magnesium sterate, Monkey kidney tissue culture, Vero (Vervet or African green monkeys, Monosodium glutamate, Mouse brain, Mouse serum protein, MRC-5 cellular protein, Mueller-Hinton agar medium, Mueller-Miller medium,Neomycin, Phenol, Phenol red (phenolsulfonphthalein)
    2-Phenoxyethanol, Phosphate buffers (eg, disodium, monosodium, potassium, sodium dihydrogen phosphate), Polydimethylsilozone
    Polyethylene glycol p-isooctylphenly ether (Triton X-100), Polymxin B, Poloxyethylene 9-10 nonyl phenol (Triton N-101, octoxynol 9), Polysorbate 20, Polysorbate 80, Potassium glutamate,Phesus fetal lung tissue culture,Sodium acetate, Sodium borate, Sodium Chloride, Sodium hydroxide, Sorbitol, Soy peptone broth, Stainer-Scholte medium, Streptomycin, Sucrose, Synthetic/semi-synthetic, Thimerosal, Urea, Vitamins, unspecified, Watson-Scherp medium, Yeast or yeast extract (typically Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Yeast protein

    Right???

41. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    16:56:35

    Many of you express your concerns for “Mary” and her child. You are concerned with the long list of primarily NATURAL & NON-TOXIC vitamins and supplements that, according to you and science, have no proven effectiveness. If you are concerned with that long list then you should ALL agree that the below long list of known nero-toxins INJECTED repeatedly into children and babies all over the world should be cause for concern too, right???

    Albumin, egg (ovalbumin),Albumin, human serum,Albumin, or serum, bovine,Aluminum hydroxide,Aluminum phosphate,Aluminum potassium sulfate,Amino acids,Ammonium sulfate,Amphotericin B, Ascorbic acid
    Bactopeptone,Beta-proiolatone,Benezthonium chloride,Bovine protein
    Brilliant green,Calf skin,Chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture
    Chick kidney cells,Chicken embryo (fertilized egg) ,Chlortetracycline,Cohen-Wheeler, modified (pertussis component)
    DNA,Ethylenediamine-tetraacetic acid sodium (EDTA), Egg protein,Formaldehyde, formalin,Gelatin Gentamicin,Glutaraldehyde, Glycerin,Glycine,Human diploid tissue culture, MRC-5,Human diploid tissue culture, WI-38,Hydrochloric acid,Lactose,Lathinan medium derived from bovine casein,Linggoud Fenton media containing bovine extract, Magnesium sterate, Monkey kidney tissue culture, Vero (Vervet or African green monkeys, Monosodium glutamate, Mouse brain, Mouse serum protein, MRC-5 cellular protein, Mueller-Hinton agar medium, Mueller-Miller medium,Neomycin, Phenol, Phenol red (phenolsulfonphthalein)
    2-Phenoxyethanol, Phosphate buffers (eg, disodium, monosodium, potassium, sodium dihydrogen phosphate), Polydimethylsilozone
    Polyethylene glycol p-isooctylphenly ether (Triton X-100), Polymxin B, Poloxyethylene 9-10 nonyl phenol (Triton N-101, octoxynol 9), Polysorbate 20, Polysorbate 80, Potassium glutamate,Phesus fetal lung tissue culture,Sodium acetate, Sodium borate, Sodium Chloride, Sodium hydroxide, Sorbitol, Soy peptone broth, Stainer-Scholte medium, Streptomycin, Sucrose, Synthetic/semi-synthetic, Thimerosal, Urea, Vitamins, unspecified, Watson-Scherp medium, Yeast or yeast extract (typically Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Yeast protein

    Right???

42. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:05:43

    To Joseph, I apologize…I mis-wrote…I meant to type “Sesame Seeds”

    Oops, sorry for the mistake.

    However, I will say….what do those do if they are allergic to milk? Should they just lay down and die cause they can’t have milk??? My son can’t have milk, my brother couldn’t have milk. And they are healthy. We supplement with foods and calcium vitamins.

    What are vegans to do with out milk??? The milk industry has had a huge hand in promoting milk to be good for the body. But the hormones and such that are injected into the cows. Also, current studies suggest milk and milk-based products are robbing the body of calcium. We are the only society that consumes milk, large amounts in that, and are the only society that suffers from Osteoporosis.

    You are right, maybe you would have to consume large amounts of sesame seeds in order to match a glass of milk but milk isn’t all that its cracked up to be and there are PLENTY of other calcium sources such as sesame seeds, dark-green leafy veggies, other enriched “milks” like almond, rice, Vance’s Dari-free, etc.

43. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:07:59

    I apologize if this posts twice. The first version didn’t go through.

    Someone asked if I had contacted Mary and offered support after I read the preamble to this piece. What would you have had me say?

    “I think you should stop all these ridiculous “treatments” immediately. If I was forced to undergo regular intravenous treatments, I’d be screaming, howling, humming, and screeching too!”

    Can you imagine how that kind of comment would be received in the cozy echo chamber of A-M? Other people did reply, and while one person did suggest stopping everything for a little while and starting over, most of the responses were simply to try more woo – antifungals, diet, and herbal parasite treatments were suggested. There’s no dissent allowed in these groups. It’s an article of faith that 1. autism is caused by vaccines and 2. children are recovering with biomedical “treatments”. In the real world, there is no science-based evidence for either of these tenets.

44. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:13:07

    Many of you have concern with the natural and non-toxic vitamins and supplements “Mary” is “subjecting” her child to however, please take a look at the very long ingredient list on the below link and tell me how you feel about children being repeatedly subjected to those known nero-toxins…being injected with chemicals?

    http://www.vaccineawareness.org/index.php#44

    Maybe some parents out there aren’t taking the right steps when it comes to biomed treatments but you can’t be upset with a parent giving her child natural supplements when you are ok with the crazy toxins in each vaccine a child is given.

    How could you have a problem with Nystatin, Enhansa, Epsom Salt, B12, etc and not have a problem with cells from aborted fetuses, phenol, formaldehyde, and thimersol????? That is just mind-boggling.

45. 
    passionlessDrone
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:15:33

    What pathetic, tragically misguided person decided to filter through over three thousand and five hundred posts and pick the one fifth of one percent of them to comprise this message?

    By the authors own admission, the person in question has over 3,500 posts; yet we are given a select sampling of seven, over five years of time to paint the picture before us. The irony is so rich that this post would come in a forum where the accusation of cherry picking data is first and foremost in the aresenal.

    How many posts did the author read from this very same person where they said, ‘Thanks for listening and helping me out last week, my little guy is feeling a lot better today and I’m doing better too.’ or ‘Here is a story I wanted to share with you about how well my son did at school today, two days after we started intervention X.’ and decide that they didn’t make the cut? These types of messages are just as numerous on these types of discussion boards.

    We have other posts here, today in fact, bothered by an unrealistic and incomplete portrayl of autism, and one post later, we have exactly the same thing; an ultra micromanaged slice of information cut down as precisely as a diamond and presented as reality.

    It is utter hypocrisy from the mouths of those on self styled pedastals of righteousness. For shame.

    – pD

46. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:16:42

    jen – no one would argue that a child who has lactose intolerance or an actual allergy to milk should still drink lactose-containing milk. In that case, as in all real life situations, there’s a balance between risk and benefit. If you want to argue that an autistic child has one of these conditions, or celiac disease, and genuinely feels better on a milk-free diet, I wouldn’t argue with you. The problem is that GFCF is held up as a cure for autism, not for lactose intolerance, milk allergy or celiac. Most autistic kids aren’t even tested for those conditions before they are put on the diet.

    And if they don’t improve on GFCF, then it’s the parent’s fault. They aren’t being careful enough. They are using non-GFCF shampoo, play-doh or bandaids. They aren’t trying hard enough. It’s the same with all bio-med treatments. If it isn’t working, it’s because you haven’t tried enough things, not because the things aren’t working. This lead to terrible guilt on the parent’s part. Being called a refrigerator mother is nothing in comparison to the guilt some of these parents, including “Mary”, feels when their child doesn’t recover.

47. 
    nicksgirl
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:16:49

    Many of you have concern with the natural and non-toxic vitamins and supplements “Mary” is “subjecting” her child to however, please take a look at the very long ingredient list on the below link and tell me how you feel about children being repeatedly subjected to those known nero-toxins…being injected with chemicals?

    http://www.vaccineawareness.org/index.php#44

    Maybe some parents out there aren’t taking the right steps when it comes to biomed treatments but you can’t be upset with a parent giving her child natural supplements when you are ok with the crazy toxins in each vaccine a child is given.

    How could you have a problem with Nystatin, Enhansa, Epsom Salt, B12, etc and not have a problem with cells from aborted fetuses, phenol, formaldehyde, and thimersol????? That is just mind-boggling.

48. 
    nicksgirl
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:23:31

    Mmmm, let me think…if I’m a kid or a parent with children…do I want the list you provide above or the below list…mmmm, let me think (insert “Jeopardy” music here)...naaaa, I’ll go with the list above thanks!

    Albumin, egg (ovalbumin)
    Albumin, human serum
    Albumin, or serum, bovine
    Aluminum hydroxide
    Aluminum phosphate
    Aluminum potassium sulfate
    Amino acids
    Ammonium sulfate
    Amphotericin B
    Ascorbic acid
    Bactopeptone
    Beta-proiolatone
    Benezthonium chloride
    Bovine protein
    Brilliant green
    Calf skin
    Chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture
    Chick kidney cells
    Chicken embryo (fertilized egg)
    Chlortetracycline
    Cohen-Wheeler, modified (pertussis component)
    DNA
    Ethylenediamine-tetraacetic acid sodium (EDTA)
    Egg protein
    Formaldehyde, formalin
    Gelatin Gentamicin
    Glutaraldehyde
    Glycerin
    Glycine
    Human diploid tissue culture, MRC-5
    Human diploid tissue culture, WI-38
    Hydrochloric acid
    Lactose
    Lathinan medium derived from bovine casein
    Linggoud Fenton media containing bovine extract
    Magnesium sterate
    Monkey kidney tissue culture, Vero (Vervet or African green monkeys
    Monosodium glutamate
    Mouse brain
    Mouse serum protein
    MRC-5 cellular protein
    Mueller-Hinton agar medium
    Mueller-Miller medium
    Neomycin
    Phenol
    Phenol red (phenolsulfonphthalein)
    2-Phenoxyethanol
    Phosphate buffers (eg, disodium, monosodium, potassium, sodium dihydrogen phosphate)
    Polydimethylsilozone
    Polyethylene glycol p-isooctylphenly ether (Triton X-100)
    Polymxin B
    Poloxyethylene 9-10 nonyl phenol (Triton N-101, octoxynol 9)
    Polysorbate 20
    Polysorbate 80
    Potassium glutamate
    Phesus fetal lung tissue culture
    Sodium acetate
    Sodium borate
    Sodium Chloride
    Sodium hydroxide
    Sorbitol
    Soy peptone broth
    Stainer-Scholte medium
    Streptomycin
    Sucrose
    Synthetic/semi-synthetic
    Thimerosal
    Urea
    Vitamins, unspecified
    Watson-Scherp medium
    Yeast or yeast extract (typically Saccharomyces cerevisiae)
    Yeast protein

49. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:26:22

    pD – I’ve read hundreds of “Mary’s” posts. Yes, sometimes she feels like there are some small gains by using the treatment du jour. But let’s look at all she’s done, and where her son is at present.

    To help you with a sense of balance, I’m going to quote another post where she does talk about positives. After reading a very large number of her posts, I’d say that this is a typical positive post. And this is for a “treatment” on which she is willing to spend $2800 a month.

    “A few things I’ve noticed, and it may or may not be from the IVIG.

    His screaming has decreased. He had some screams that are clearly tics and some that are definitely behavioral. Both have decreased but the tic ones decreased more.

    Slight improvement in eye contact.

    In the last week or so he’s sillier and more playful. It’s easier to get him to laugh and engage in something silly like making faces back and forth and he seems to get a bigger kick out of me being silly.”

50. 
    Sullivan
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:26:31

    Nicksgirl,

    I am not being dragged into the “look at the scary ingredients in vaccines” debate. Nothing in vaccines scare me. Vaccine preventable diseases scare me.

    I used to read some of the biomed groups. I had to stop because I couldn’t bear to read the obvious adverse reactions that some kids are going through. Those are always brushed aside.

    I’d have a lot more respect for the biomed movement if they had some way of reporting the possible adverse reactions to a central body and making that information available to parents.

51. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:31:23

    nicksgirl,

    DMSA is hardly a natural non-toxic vitamin. Nor is Actos, Galantamine, nystatin, flagyl, nizoral, OSR or DMPS.

    Please read this link and see how you feel about OSR after that.

    http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_s.....tment.html

    OSR is a synthetic chemical developed for removing heavy metals from waste-water.

52. 
    Chris
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:33:39

    nicksgirl, I have no problem with the ingredients in vaccines because I know they have been tested (oh, and your list is out of date by several years, thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines several years ago). There is a great post about those “toxins” on ScienceBasedMedicine, which I will link to when it comes back up (in the mean time there is review of that list).

    The various odd treatments, not so much. And it is not so much the supplements, the oils and other stuff… it is the huge amount of expense, quantity and lack of evidence.

    Then there is the horrible sadness one gets when you realize that someone is using the desperation in these parents to push those supplements. On those supposed support groups parents are made to feel that they aren’t doing enough if they don’t buy into the “use this and your child will be cured” ideology. Someone is selling the stuff, and at the prices they charge it is not for humanitarian reasons.

    Actually, my three teenage children received their fall flu shots yesterday. This is especially important for my oldest disabled child since he has a severe genetic heart condition that makes him particularly vulnerable to illness.

53. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:36:51

    (sullivan’s edit—I changed the name to “jen” for this post. Jen, please stop posting under ‘guest blogger’)

    Mmmm, if I’m a kid what do I want…list A (above the one the original poster used) or list B (below- vaccine ingredient list below)- insert Jeopardy music here – after a few seconds of deep thought…I’ll take list A, thanks!

    Albumin, egg (ovalbumin)
    Albumin, human serum
    Albumin, or serum, bovine
    Aluminum hydroxide
    Aluminum phosphate
    Aluminum potassium sulfate
    Amino acids
    Ammonium sulfate
    Amphotericin B
    Ascorbic acid
    Bactopeptone
    Beta-proiolatone
    Benezthonium chloride
    Bovine protein
    Brilliant green
    Calf skin
    Chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture
    Chick kidney cells
    Chicken embryo (fertilized egg)
    Chlortetracycline
    Cohen-Wheeler, modified (pertussis component)
    DNA
    Ethylenediamine-tetraacetic acid sodium (EDTA)
    Egg protein
    Formaldehyde, formalin
    Gelatin Gentamicin
    Glutaraldehyde
    Glycerin
    Glycine
    Human diploid tissue culture, MRC-5
    Human diploid tissue culture, WI-38
    Hydrochloric acid
    Lactose
    Lathinan medium derived from bovine casein
    Linggoud Fenton media containing bovine extract
    Magnesium sterate
    Monkey kidney tissue culture, Vero (Vervet or African green monkeys
    Monosodium glutamate
    Mouse brain
    Mouse serum protein
    MRC-5 cellular protein
    Mueller-Hinton agar medium
    Mueller-Miller medium
    Neomycin
    Phenol
    Phenol red (phenolsulfonphthalein)
    2-Phenoxyethanol
    Phosphate buffers (eg, disodium, monosodium, potassium, sodium dihydrogen phosphate)
    Polydimethylsilozone
    Polyethylene glycol p-isooctylphenly ether (Triton X-100)
    Polymxin B
    Poloxyethylene 9-10 nonyl phenol (Triton N-101, octoxynol 9)
    Polysorbate 20
    Polysorbate 80
    Potassium glutamate
    Phesus fetal lung tissue culture
    Sodium acetate
    Sodium borate
    Sodium Chloride
    Sodium hydroxide
    Sorbitol
    Soy peptone broth
    Stainer-Scholte medium
    Streptomycin
    Sucrose
    Synthetic/semi-synthetic
    Thimerosal
    Urea
    Vitamins, unspecified
    Watson-Scherp medium
    Yeast or yeast extract (typically Saccharomyces cerevisiae)
    Yeast protein

54. 
    Chris
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:38:12

    nicksgirl, having had a child injured by a real disease, I find your outdated list of ingredients silly at best.

55. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:40:16

    (edit by Sullivan. The commenter’s name has been changed to jen)

    Sullivan, please provide your source of “vaccine preventable diseases”???

56. 
    Sullivan
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:40:22

    “There’s no dissent allowed in these groups. “

    This is my problem with reading these groups. One can not show dissent or question the “authority” in these groups. I know. I’ve tried.

    The problem is, dissent can be saying, “you know, throwing up for weeks is not a good sign. Perhaps you should take your child to a doctor”.

57. 
    Sullivan
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:42:44

    Jen,

    “Albumin, egg (ovalbumin),Albumin, human serum,Albumin, or serum, bovine, Aluminum hydroxide,Aluminum phosphate,Aluminum potassium sulfate,Amino acids,Ammonium sulfate,Amphotericin B, Ascorbic acid…”

    I will not be frightened by chemical names or sera. Just not.

58. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:43:08

    (edit by Sullivan—the commenter’s name has been changed to Jen)
    Chris, you consider Feb of 2009 to be outdated? And may I pry a bit…what disease was your child injured by and what were/are his injuries?

59. 
    Joseph
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:46:51

    Many of you have concern with the natural and non-toxic vitamins and supplements “Mary” is “subjecting” her child to however, please take a look at the very long ingredient list on the below link and tell me how you feel about children being repeatedly subjected to those known nero-toxins…being injected with chemicals?

    Everything is a toxin, even water. What matters is the dose. To say that vitamins and supplements given in high doses every day are not toxic is a bit naive and probably false. It’s also by no means “natural,” if that matters.

    Are children injected with vaccines every day of their lives? That would be pretty toxic, but it doesn’t happen.

60. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:49:37

    (edit by Sullivan—once more, I need to note that this was not by the guest blogger. The name has been changed to jen for this post)

    And Sullivan…

    right back at ya…

    I won’t be scared of Epsom Salt Baths, b12, probiotics, chiropractic, GFCF diet, etc…all words I can pronounce with out help!

    Speaking about vaccines and health related issues in general, I think there needs to be a balance. Currently, as it stands, there is no balance with the vaccines. The amount administered before age 2 is outrageous. There are things that on the list that are just not necessary. I think at this time in society we are relying way to much on science and not allowing our bodies to do what they were made to do on their own.

61. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:53:34

    Joseph, I miswrote…children everywhere all over the world are injected with these nasty ingredients.

    Where is their voice on that??? You all wonder how could “Mary” do such things to her child, her child not having a say. Well then, why don’t we have children decide if they want those toxins injected into them.

    (edit by Sullivan—I have changed the name from “guest blogger” to jen for this comment)

62. 
    Kwombles
    September 23rd, 2009
    17:57:14

    Isn’t it kind of juvenile for Jen to be posting as guest blogger and other sock puppets? What, are you two?

    And seriously, all those things you say you can pronounce have chemical names as well, because it turns out everything is chemical in nature.

63. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:02:44

    There you go with more assumptions Kwombles

    I’m posting under Jen and guest blogger because my posts are not going thru. So, I’m thinking the name needs to be changed, maybe one post per person…who knows??? Don’t know. But its not because I’m two. Thanks for the insult thou! :)

    And I apologize you don’t get my sarcasm. I assure you I can pronounce all the words.

    Kwombles…is it possible for you to have an educated debate without insults? Just curious.

    (Edit by sullivan—I have changed the name for this comment to “jen” from “guest blogger”)

64. 
    Dawn
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:04:29

    @ Sullivan: Please look at the last few posts with “guest blogger” as the poster. They don’t seem to be from the person who wrote the post.

    Second, please let me say that vitamens and minerals are not “harmless”. Overdoses of the fat-soluble vitamens can be very harmful to a adult, much less a child. So can extended mega-doses of the water-soluble vitamens (I had a patient who developed scurvy when she quit taking her megadoses of Vitamen C while planning for pregnancy. Her body was so used to the megadoses.) Megadoses of the B vitamens can lead to nerve damage/destruction.

    Certainly supplements should be given if, for some reason, a child can’t eat enough normal food to get the needed vitamens. However, megadoses are dangerous. Lactose-intolerant children should, of course, be tested and lactose removed from the diet. Calcium is available in other ways.

    Again, and I, Kev, Sullivan, etc have said is many, many times. A child who is sick/in pain/allergic needs to have the problem treated. This does not cure the autism!! If the autistic behaviors decrease because the child does not need to communicate his/her pain through them, then everyone benefits.

    Lastly, mary, jen,etc: You obviously don’t have any idea who has an autistic child on this board and what level of functioning the child has. Many of the posters have autistic children at various levels of functioning.

65. 
    Kwombles
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:07:44

    I’m sorry, where was my first assumption, lurker? If you think asking if you’re two years old because you are acting it is an insult, perhaps you should go read Thelma and Louise’s blog sometime. They’re working on something they’re calling inventive invectiveness.

    And if you think you are engaging in an educated debate, I’m pretty sure that there are many of us here who would disagree.

66. 
    Joseph
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:19:19

    If your posts are not going through, it’s because the system here is determining they might be spam. Watch the words you use, but please do not impersonate other people – it’s very confusing.

    children everywhere all over the world are injected with these nasty ingredients.

    Again, saying something is “nasty” is meaningless, independent of the dose, because everything is a toxin. The vaccine ingredients you mentioned are injected in tiny doses. No one gets vaccinated every single day of their lives. More importantly, vaccine safety is studied.

    Giving 20 supplements and vitamins to a child every single day is different. The doses are non-trivial. No one studies the safety of these sorts of made-up regimens. It’s just assumed they are safe for an indeterminate amount of time.

    A generation from now I’d like to see how healthy the kidneys of autistic adults are.

67. 
    David N. Brown
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:20:39

    Here’s a list of what some of these biomed treatments can do:
    EDTA: Hypocalcemia, possible cardiac arrest
    DMPS: NEVER approved for us in US do to fatalities in testing.
    Amphotericin: Severe seizures, may also cause heart, liver and kidney damage
    N Acetylsteine: Heart and lung damage as known side effects.

    Another thing about these products: In many cases, they are produced by the same “Big Pharma” companies anti-vax groups are so suspicious of.

68. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:21:58

    There is Guest Blogger (me, who wrote the post) and guest blogger (jen) who has a fondness for lowercase. You can tell us apart that way.

69. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:27:47

    I just still can’t get past the fact that someone has the time to sit around and read hundreds or even thousands of one particular person’s posts. what is it about this one particular mother over all the others on the list?

    Seriously, don’t you have something more productive to do with your time? Play with your kids? Volunteer to help children with disabilities? Provide an hour or two a week for respite for a deserving Mom? Read to the blind or elderly?

    You need a life.

70. 
    Anthony
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:30:31

    How many posts did the author read from this very same person where they said, ‘Thanks for listening and helping me out last week, my little guy is feeling a lot better today and I’m doing better too.’ or ‘Here is a story I wanted to share with you about how well my son did at school today, two days after we started intervention X.’ and decide that they didn’t make the cut? These types of messages are just as numerous on these types of discussion boards.

    This doesn’t address the point of this post. Even if all these support posts exist, it doesn’t mean that those highlighted in this post don’t exist, neither do they negate the wasted money, misplaced hopes and potential harm inflicted on a child because of a fatal trust in pseudo-scientific treatments. This needs calling out. It is clearly unacceptable for further vunerable people to be exposed to this.

    I’d call the people who exploit parents and children vultures, but that’s an insult to vultures who serve a valuable role in ecosystems.

71. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:38:27

    (edit by Sullivan—the poster’s name has been changed to Jen)
    Kwombles…here is your 1st assumption…”This is a woman in dire need of intervention and a child who cannot be even remotely considered to be in a healthy, safe environment.”

    You are assuming this based on a few posts from a yahoo group!! Have you evaluated the home, is the parent a drug-user, have you had a conversation with this person or child??

    How can any one of you assume this child is being mistreated because you pulled a few of many posts by this parent?

    All of these parents do these things because they love their kid and have hope.

    I think you are being very heart-less towards a woman who, at a weak moment, told a group of people how she truly feels and how Autism is effecting her.

    I’m sorry to read you don’t feel we are having an educated debate because I don’t agree with your opinions.

    I wouldn’t have even known about your blog or group had it not been from your member who copied and pasted a mother’s words…just kick her while she’s down why don’t you. Maybe you should have your arguments without using people’s posts as an example for a bad parenting 101 and I wouldn’t have been even on this group.

    I don’t agree with the ingredients in vaccines. I don’t do biomed on my child. I don’t have an Autistic child (although would have if I continued with vaccines). I do agree with homeopathic remedies. I do believe when it comes to a child’s health a parent should be able to have options.

    But, like “Mary”, I have every right to have these opinions and shouldn’t feel judged or threatened for not not having mainstream views. I don’t think you are a bad parent for giving your child vaccines, I don’t think you are bad for not trying the diets and supplements…but that is your right as a parent. Understand I believe thinking out of the box might help a child who suffers from Autism. But, it is wrong to assume you are a bad parent because you don’t…you are being hypocrites.

    Regardless, either way, this blog post is still ridiculous. It is not necessary pc of information and it is not moral to take this woman’s words and talk bad about her and the situation as a whole.

72. 
    Momof1Recovered
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:39:06

    What you are all missing in this debate is:

    WHAT WORKS

    If biomed works or you see improvement in certain realms then you’re going to continue it. It worked fantastically for us. Whereas… ABA felt demeaning, the Ped Neurologists ideas were limited to the prescription pad which also didn’t work and had unacceptable side effects, and frankly the developmental pediatrician was so good at diagnosing but didn’t have any suggestions for remediation. Nobody sets out to spend all their money and time doing things that might or might not work but we are forced to because the medical community have been miserable failures at healing these children. And because I have one that is largely healed, I know its possible. Its a travesty that this mom is at this point in parenting and obviously having a very difficult time.

    Frankly, “GuestBlogger” I find you more than a little Obsessive Compulsive for having chosen to spend so much time to meticulously compile this information and publicly attack this person. It feels like you want to annihilate and crush her, which makes me believe here in cyberspace either you are an angry, aggressive person or you have some other agenda.

    And regarding the GFCF diet. Babe, you are way out of it and operating on your own edge of lack of knowledge. There is a stack of scientific literature available regarding protein and fat digestion and the ensuing inflammatory conditions associated with poorly digested amino acid chains leaking into the bloodstream. In fact the very latest research is pointing to this as possibly implicated in juvenile diabetes. The first thing my regular pediatrician told me when my child’s celiac test came back negative was, “ok, well its a known fact that some people who are not truly allergic with a histamine response are still able to mount an immune response to undigested amino acid chains. I’m a former genetics researcher, I read medical journals and you are poorly informed my friend.
    Sorry, I am just laughing at you. You’re nothing but a windbag of opinions that are flapping in the internet breeze.

73. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:39:43

    Anthony, what wasted money? Is it your money? Why do you care? I’d rather be living on the side of the road in a cardboard box with a child who I is either recovered, or who I did everything I could for, then sit back and say “it is what it is” while I live in my nice house, wear nice clothes and drive nice cars.

    If you’re not paying the bills, it’s none of your business what people spend their money on.

    I know “Mary” through email. Guess she can’t be too broke,she’s taking “Saul” to a U2 concert tonight because he loves music and live shows. Anti-terrorism warnings are saying to beware of stadiums and entertainment complexes. Guess she is potentially inflicting harm on her son by putting a fatal trust in pseudo-security officers too

    LOL

74. 
    Kwombles
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:46:27

    You know, jen, lurker, whoever you are, if you did’t contradict yourself so many times in that last post, it might be worth it to hash it out with you. But it’s not. You’re just getting your jollies off, aren’t you? Oh, but there I go, making assumptions again.

75. 
    Vindaloo
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:47:48

    pD – “By the authors own admission, the person in question has over 3,500 posts; yet we are given a select sampling of seven, over five years of time to paint the picture before us.”

    I agree, it would have been much more effective to have pasted all 3500 posts… IFF effective = useless. What happened to the old pD who used to be relevant and even insightful? Is that troll jen using your screen name too?

76. 
    Ringside Seat
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:48:02

    I thought this post was a fascinating glimpse into the world of one of the victims of the vaccine scare. The way these people are manipulated and exploited is just shameful and – IMO - is a bigger deal than whether infectious diseases take off a little bit.

    No surprise that the anti-vax haters start swarming in the way they have.

    Any moment of truth sets them off.

77. 
    Ed
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:48:22

    This anonymous blog is both misguided and misnformed. What is this person’s agenda for criticizing parents for trying to help their children? In working with my own child’s PDD, I’ve come to realize that the conventional wisdom of the established medical profession, which I suppose this anonymous blogger supports, is that we should not try to investigate the cause of the problem, so as to try to cure the problem. Rather, we just manage the problem. I find it mind boggling that doctors would not be the first to ask, WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM? And after having done sufficient research with an open mind, I’ve concluded that children are intended by nature to be neurotypical. If they are not neurotypical, there is a CAUSE. That CAUSE could only be either genetic, trauma or environmental (e.g., toxicity), or some combination thereof. So every effort should be put into identifying the CAUSE so that a CURE can be found.

    Also, this blog conflates and confuses two separate issues. One is whether vaccines are causative of autism. I do not know and the issue should certainly be further investigated. The other is whether autism has a cause. I do not need proof to know that if there is a EFFECT (i.e., autism), there is a CAUSE. Identifying the CAUSE will be the way to heal our children. This blogger is an idiot for suggesting, with much effort expended in the process, that parents of children with autism should not try to find out the CAUSE of what ailes their children.

78. 
    isles
    September 23rd, 2009
    18:49:50

    Stacey, you are incorrect: far from being unproductive, Guest Blogger’s effort in exposing the full array of “treatments” inflicted on a single autistic child is extremely important. We often hear about parents trying this or that, but rarely know what else is being given at the same time, or how far along they are in a string of failed “therapies.”

    Who knows what effects these unregulated products have? Have they been tested in combination? Has their purity been certified by a trustworthy agency? Who is looking out for the children who have no choice in this matter? Guest Blogger is doing what she can. I appreciate it.

79. 
    Sullivan
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:00:22

    Just to bring people up to speed on the sock puppet situation:

    “jen”, “Jennifer L”, “This is Ridiculous” and “nicksgirl” are all posting from the same IP address.

    The same person tried “guest blogger” as a name for a while too, but I have changed those posts to “jen”

80. 
    Anthony
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:01:25

    Anthony, what wasted money?

    The money that could be spent on living a normal life rather than funding the lifestyles of quacks exploiting parents and children. Earning money also diverts time and effort from parents.

    Is it your money? Why do you care?

    I care for two reasons:

    1. The same reason I care about frauds ripping people off in financial scams.

    2. Because the money is funding an industry which is undermining the health of other children because of its dependance on peddling mythical vaccine scares.

81. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:01:45

    Thank you Guest Blogger for clearing that up…I do not want to be confused with you.

    And Joseph…I did not intentionally try to impersonate anyone. And the words I was trying to use, when I had difficulty posting, were vaccine ingredients. No foul language here…or wait…I think I may just consider vaccine ingredients to be foul.

    We could sit here all day…I could have a full one war of words and documents that don’t agree with what you are saying but that is off subject.

    And Dawn, my son, prior to being GFCF, had test, after test, after test. The last test, the one that broke me down, was the scope…or $6000. Endoscopy. As they pulled him from my arms, my son screaming for me & holding his arms out I cried. I was so distraught. They put him to sleep and put a tool down his throat to see what was going on. The biopsies, the scope, the countless blood tests, the allergy tests, the drugs…everything was negative. The doctor who preformed the endo test wrote in my son’s lab results that “the mother is confusing bad behavior with allergies because I see nothing wrong with this child”. But he sure didn’t have a problem taking us for $6000

    Three days after the gfcf diet…new child. The ones who supported me and told me how to help myself, learn how to cook gfcf, and find ways to keep my son healthy & happy were those from yahoo groups with vaccine-injured children.

    Just like I can’t say that because of a bad experience with one doctor all doctors are bad you can’t say that just because one parents are doing biomeds that it is a unnecessary treatment.

    My son’s ped had him on a Zantac type drug when he was a baby for almost 5months. After I realized it was making my son worse & I researched the drug I threw it in the garbage. Yes, too much of anything is a bad thing. And in regards to your comment about what that one time you saw someone who had too many vitamins it made me think about the many kids on ADHD drugs who have been on them from age 3 to age 14 have died or those who’ve survived have organs like 80 yr olds. But big pharma says those drugs are safe. Guess we should just trust them.

82. 
    Anthony
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:03:33

    Does typing CAUSE in capitals give it special meaning?

83. 
    Joseph
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:04:56

    And after having done sufficient research with an open mind, I’ve concluded that children are intended by nature to be neurotypical.

    Really? Nature wants children to be neurotypical. I see.

    So a child with Down Syndrome or Angelman’s is really not as nature intended. Genetic mutations apparently are not something nature wants.

    As someone with an “open mind,” can I assume you’re reconsidering your position?

84. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:05:15

    you people are silly! i only used different names cause the posts weren’t going thru. i didn’t understand what i was doing wrong. i thought maybe posts were limited per person…i’ve never been here before.

85. 
    Guest Blogger
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:05:19

    Ed,

    It is very clear from reading “Mary’s” posts that she believes autism is caused by vaccines. That’s why she embarked on chelation (to remove the mercury). And why she embarked on IVIG, because her kid is supposedly a “viral kid”. She didn’t try to figure out the cause, she assumed a cause and went from there to try the frightening array of “treatments” in the big list.

    It is anti-vax movement that provides the motivation for these treatments.

86. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:11:02

    Anthony what is considered a normal life? Two relatively new vehicles, a house that is almost paid for, a pool, a playset that puts any public playground to shame, a huge water slide, bikes, scooters, trips to Disney, Sesame Place, seeing the Wiggles and Laurie Berkner in concert, wearing new brand name clothes??? A Stay at home Mom?

    “Saul” gets that and more. Dad probably pays more in taxes than you make in year.

87. 
    Sullivan
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:14:27

    Guest Blogger wrote:

    There is Guest Blogger (me, who wrote the post) and guest blogger (jen) who has a fondness for lowercase. You can tell us apart that way.

    Dawn wrote:

    @ Sullivan: Please look at the last few posts with “guest blogger” as the poster. They don’t seem to be from the person who wrote the post.

    I think I have changed all the false “guest blogger” comments to “jen”.

    As noted previously “jen” appears to have a number of personas in this discussion.

88. 
    Stacey
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:16:54

    Oh and Anthony…vaccine scares??

    Here’s my scare…

    My son, totally neurotypical, very social, great language, great imagination, life of the party type of kid. Got his first flu shot at 2 years old. Was supposed to get 2 for it to be effective. Within 12 hours of the first one he had a 104 degree fever, vomiting and a full body rash. Of course he wasn’t himself for the first 2 or 3 days not feeling well, but he was never himself again. He stopped talking, he limped off his left side, started staring blankly out windows, stopped answering to his name, night sweats, drooling, forgot how to chew and swallow, and went from having normal formed brown poops to having chocolate pudding run out his butt all day, uncontrollably for almost a year. We could barely leave our house unless it was for emergencies or doctors visits.

    So for us,and many others, it’s not just a vaccine scare. My son was damaged by that flu shot in more ways than one. And guess what….my mainstream modern medical professional insists there is no connection.

89. 
    Anthony
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:17:29

    A normal life would be paying for treatments that evidence they work, and using the rest of your resources to care for your family – rather than to finance the families of those ripping you off.

    Good for Saul, but I’m sure there are other families who do make sacrifices.

90. 
    Anthony
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:18:27

    That’s because there isn’t one.

91. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:18:55

    Ok, so you are Sullivan and you are Guest Blogger?? So you are using two names??

    Man, what a waste of a day for me. But I just couldn’t sit back and let Sullivan and/or Guest Blogger rip this poor mother to shreds for trying to do the best she can for her kid.

92. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:19:25

    anon posters – please feel free to comment anonymously but retain just ONE username. One person posting under multiple usernames will be considered spam and deleted.

93. 
    Chris
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:21:08

    “jen”, any vaccine ingredient list with thimerosal is outdated in regards to pediatric vaccines. Also, it is interesting that you chose to keep sodium chloride on the list.

    What does it matter what disease injured my child? The fact of the matter is that the diseases are far more dangerous than the vaccines. But I realize trying to explain or discuss this with someone who uses sockpuppets would be waste of time.

    Hmmm, speaking of chicken embryos, I think I’ll have some for lunch with some sodium chloride.

94. 
    Sullivan
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:25:00

    Ok, so you are Sullivan and you are Guest Blogger?? So you are using two names??

    Jen,

    if you weren’t so busy posting under multiple names you would be able to keep “Guest Blogger” and “Sullivan” separate. Very clearly, we are different people.

95. 
    christel king
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:28:44

    isles
    that is our exact arguement for vaccinations! they have never been tested in combo, or many at all! or combo of ingredients, metals plus live viruses (they are not it the same vile) my son had mercury vaccinations given WITH Live virus ones crashing his system while given a glutathione supressent in tylonal (which I was advised to give by my dr) with the vaccination shutting down his ability to detox the metals while trying to fight a live virus while reaction to components in the vaccine my child was allergic to. ever test??? nope! the irrony is that a child in the same town was given at the same place the same combo and got an infection so bad he had to have his leg removed from the knee down. several other kids died with in days of the same batches and yet 11 developed seizer disorders. were any of those vaccintes pulled, batches distroyed, recalled NO, but if it’s a swollow hazard for a toy or a few kids pinch a finger you better believe it!

    and for those uneductated on vacciation there is STILL mercury in vaccinations, INCLUDING the new upcoming flu shots and mist for H1N1! read inserts. there was never a pull out date given for mercury just a “soft suggestion” to do so. it’s never been a mandated things. AND when people do stop producing ones with it things are still on the shelf with a long shelf life and dr’s don’t just throw them out. my son was born in 2001, and in 2003 was getting ones with mercury still in them

96. 
    Kev
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:42:39

    Christel King – actually vaccines are tested in combination. See this post for full details.

97. 
    jen
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:47:10

    Guest Blogger you are wrong!

    “It is anti-vax movement that provides the motivation for these treatments.”

    Please don’t put words in parent’s mouth and make assumptions on what motivates a parent(s). I know for a fact, it is the love and hope they have for their child that provides the motivation for these treatments.

    Most of these parents are only anti-vax because their child was injured from a vaccine. No parent wants their child to get sick, no parent wants their child to have issues in any way. It is because they believed mainstream med and because they followed guidelines set forth that got them their child in that position. They did what they were supposed to…they got their child the jabs and they lost their trust in big pharma and mainstream med.

    And how could you discount all the parents who have stories such as “my 12yr old child said their first word after 3days of being on the gfcf diet”. There are sooo many parents with those great success stories all over the world…how could totally discount those stories??? How can you explain Homefirst clinic??? They are vaccine-friendly, meaning they don’t push either way and they feel it important its the parents choice, look them up. Over all their patients, all their years of service they have had 1 case of Asthma and NO cases of Autism with their non-vaccinated children. How is it those from the “Quaker” community have only had 1 case of Autism…a child they adopted from China.

    Please give me a scientific explanation of this???

98. 
    isles
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:48:38

    And yes, Christel, that was a poke at the antivaxer movement. You almost got it.

    (PS – there is no thimerosal in FluMist – it’s a live attenuated vaccine, thimerosal would ruin it)

99. 
    Sullivan
    September 23rd, 2009
    19:51:02

    “How is it those from the “Quaker” community have only had 1 case of Autism…a child they adopted from China.”

    You are mistaking the “Amish” for “Quakers”. The Amish story was propogated by Dan Olmsted, who didn’t check with the cryptically named “Clinic for Special Children”, who have cared for and reported on autistic Amish children.

    Another point Mr. Olmsted missed was the fact that the Amish do, in fact, vaccinate. The vaccination rate amongst the Lancaster County Amish, whom Mr. Olmsted supposedly investigated, has increased dramatically in the last 15 years.

    The story is much stranger than Mr. Olmsted knows.

100. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     19:54:20

     kev taking me to another blog with snips of peices dosn’t back your claim, the goverment itself acknowledges it doesn’t test them together AND by the way did you know that on april 1st of last year I believe the AAP backed the diet and suppliment use and exploration and encourage dr’s to be trying and looking at those items helping families. they even had a rep come to the DAN conference to learn and hear what us parents are seeing!

101. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     19:57:46

     Dear David Brown: you said…

     “Here’s a list of what some of these biomed treatments can do:
     EDTA: Hypocalcemia, possible cardiac arrest
     DMPS: NEVER approved for us in US do to fatalities in testing.
     Amphotericin: Severe seizures, may also cause heart, liver and kidney damage
     N Acetylsteine: Heart and lung damage as known side effects.”

     Here is a list, for example, of the MMR side effects from the CDC’s site…
     Mild Problems

     • Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
     • Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
     • Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (rare)
       If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.

     Moderate Problems

     • Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
     • Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
     • Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

     Severe Problems (Very Rare)

     • Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
     • Several other severe problems have been known to occur after a child gets MMR vaccine. But this happens so rarely, experts cannot be sure whether they are caused by the vaccine or not. These include:
       o Deafness
       o Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
       o Permanent brain damage

     This is so tit for tat! Everything could have a negative. Those parents are willing to take the risk using biomed treatment to reverse just as you are with your child when you take him/her to get the MMR or any other vaccine to “prevent” an illness.

102. 
     isles
     September 23rd, 2009
     19:59:55

     Christel, of course they are tested in combination. It would be patently unethical to do a vaccine trial in which the subjects were required to forgo the protection of recommended childhood vaccines. Therefore, every participant in a trial of a new vaccine has also had all the other vaccines recommended for him or her, and the studies specifically look to see whether the use of the new vaccine interferes in any way with the action of the others. Of course safety is also examined; this is true at every stage of the clinical trial process.

     The American Academy of Pediatrics does not condone the use of restrictive diets for autistic children. In fact, studies have indicated that autistic children are at elevated risk of dietary insufficiency, possibly due in part to dietary restrictions imposed by well-meaning but misguided parents.

     It’s ironic that when the Academy attempted to show good faith by attending a meeting of activists who are dedicated to discrediting the Academy, its attendance was (and is) cast as an admission that the activists are correct. Is this how your movement plans to build constructive relationships going forward?

103. 
     Sullivan
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:00:19

     you know that on april 1st of last year I believe the AAP backed the diet and suppliment use and exploration and encourage dr’s to be trying and looking at those items helping families

     The AAP did not “back the diet” or supplement use. The AAP did open talks with DAN/ARI to discuss what they had to say, but the AAP have not stated one way or the other about the DAN/ARI approach.

104. 
     Joseph
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:00:25

     And how could you discount all the parents who have stories such as “my 12yr old child said their first word after 3days of being on the gfcf diet”.

     Exactly the same way I discount Victoria Beck’s story that her son started to speak shortly after receiving secretin, or Michael Menkin’s story about a girl who started to speak after 3 months of wearing his thought screen helmet.

     Also, I don’t think there are too many stories exactly like that. There might be a few.

105. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:08:15

     self abuse – solved with removing milk
     seizers- stopped by going gluten free
     cronic 3 years of diareh- solved with enzymes and suppliments found to be necessary on biomedical testing
     lack of feeling of pain and pressure- solved with zinc and vit C
     immune system irregularities- solved with LDN, DMG, and a few other suppliments
     PANDAS - fought with natural OLE and antibiotics (compounded)
     cronic yeast infections causing rashes, break out, leaky gut, and part of the cronic diareah- cured with LDN and antifungals (fluconizole, caprilic acid, garlic, oregano, biotin)
     skin rashes- cured with taking milk out
     thyroid issues- solved by selenium (with backed up testing of 6 years now showing it’s effectiveness)
     ecoli bacteria issues- taken care of with probiotics
     measels GIVEN from MMR taking root in gut with off the chart titers from cronic infection- fixed with vit A and LDN
     cronic ear infections- solved with taking out milk (*8 ear infection 8 months in a row started at 6 months old-14 months from a crashed immune system from 6 month old shot)

     milk is taken out for several reasons- allergies (IGE) intollerences (IGG issues) and opiates.

     my son would have an infraction and actually walk into walls like they weren’t there in a drunk effect before taken out and with each infraction we would see this! given us our cause and effect

     gluten (*wheat, barley, rye and oats)taken out for celiac reasons (many kids find out it runs in the family through stumbeling across autism diets) allergies (IGE) intollerencres (IGG) and opiates as well as seizers. 30% of autisic kids have seizers, a large group find out they are gluten triggered when going on the diet and they disappear. with infractions they see it return. our son seizers just touching a sticker back! 10 seconds later seizer. we have had this witness by dr’s who don’t even belive in biomedical

106. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:08:28

     Joseph, you don’t think there are too many stories but I assure you I’ve heard them all and read as they were compiled and came together. Again, all over the world similar, if not the same, stories are being said. Its just a diet change…what’s the big deal??? What are you all so scared of with diet changes?? You should leave that out of your arguments. Most, if not all, children on the spectrum don’t have a big appetite. But from my observation their appetite greatly improves once diet as started. I really can’t see how one could argue that their are nutritional deficiency’s on the gfcf diet. As far as I know that is seen prior to starting the diet.

107. 
     Mich
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:09:20

     Two brief points:

     1. I don’t actually believe that vaccines caused my son’s autism, have never been attacked for this position and am a believer in biomedical. I think autism is likely a genetic disorder that is a part of not the definition of my son.

     2. We take the low, slow, cautious approach to all interventions, including therapy. We have seen incredible, small changes in my son, including going from 2-3 word phrases to full stories about his day; an increase in eye contact, a decrease in stimming, the end of a bloated, buddha belly and gas that could clear a room.

     Let me be clear: biomedical, to me, is about healing the body so the child is able to function at full capacity. It is not about “changing” him into someone or something he is not.

     I fully accept my son for who he is, where he is. Of course I want the best outcomes for him. I also want the best outcomes for my other child, who does not require biomedical but certainly has found that eliminating dairy and increasing certain vitamins has completely resolved his eczema.

     I wish that we could stop arguing about biomedical vs ABA and see that there is room for both.

108. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:10:52

     joseph there are thousands of stories like that, kids making changers and BOOM! many with documention from non believers such as yourself that can’t deney it after seeing it with there own eyes. just cause a tree falls and you aren’t there to see it,doesn’t mean it didn’t fall

109. 
     Kwombles
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:15:28

     Mich, where was there an argument between biomedical and ABA on this thread?

110. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:15:39

     thanks jen forgot a few you triggered

     self selection on foods (*only crackers and milk)- gone with diet changes. now we eat meats, veggies, fruits, alternitive carbs and get all the nutrients that he needs with out the junk!

     sensory issues- gone with diet changes in 24 hours

     stimming (doing laddle laddle ladddle all day, need to wave hands infront of his face and spin things all day) gone with doing vit A and treating the underlying measels issues

     toe walking and flapping- gone with treating with antifungals

111. 
     Emily
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:15:55

     I’m glad to see that we’ve finally resolved the mystery of how the so few and the so wrong can be so loud: They amplify through sock puppets.

     And here are a few observations from a scientist:

     1. anecdote /= data
     2. the dose makes the poison, of anything
     3. “natural” substances, including viruses, plant toxins, and opiates, kill us all the time.
     4. Yelling doesn’t somehow make something into a fact
     5. Once again, I’ve found many great examples to use in teaching science vs pseudoscience, including the following (1) conspiracy theory, (2) ancedote over data, (3) lots of emotion, (4) sciency words or using ignorance of sciency words to engender fear, (5) reliance on testimonials over controlled studies incorporating the scientific method, (6) requests to prove a negative, and (6) refusal to alter “hypotheses” even in the light of abundant data to disprove existing ones. Thanks for that.

     And my favorite are the people who question Guest Blogger’s way of spending time. This seems like an excellent way to have spent one’s time because it highlights the harms that the woo witans are causing. Shining a light on charlatanism that harms is never a waste of time.

     Cheers.

112. 
     Joseph
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:17:52

     joseph there are thousands of stories like that, kids making changers and BOOM!

     I dispute your assertion, christel. You’re welcome to prove me wrong. (BTW, “go read this list” is not an appropriate response showing there are thousands of anecdotes.)

     Most of the time, I think the claims are of the “I think it’s working” variety.

     many with documention from non believers such as yourself that can’t deney it after seeing it with there own eyes.

     I’m also disputing this assertion.

113. 
     Sullivan
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:17:54

     “joseph there are thousands of stories like that”

     There are also many, many stories of children going through very bad adverse reactions to biomed. These are often explained away as “die off”.

     Can you point me to the contact person at DAN or another organization who is keeping track of the adverse reactions? Who can tell me the odds of a child having an adverse reaction?

     One of Jeff Bradstreet’s patients had a bad reaction to chelation. This was discussed under oath at the Autism Omnibus Proceeding. Can you tell me what test can be done to insure that a child doesn’t regress like that child? Can you tell me what the odds are of a child undergoing such a regression or other adverse event?

     The answer is no. No one knows. No one is keeping track. No one is reporting adverse events.

114. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:18:22

     sullivan
     actually the AAP did, they even put out a flyer on autism and sent it to peds with the info. I will find you the info and post it here for all to see

115. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:25:31

     Physician Fact Sheets taken right for the AAP wedsite. I had the actual print out at one time I will keep looking for it for more clairity for you

     Autism Checklist for Health Care Professionals-
     This checklist was developed to assist health care professionals in ensuring that important steps are taken in the identification, diagnosis, intervention, and management of children with ASDs and their families and can be placed in the child’s chart to track when these steps have been completed.

     Meeting the Needs of Children With Autism Spectrum Disorder During Medical Visits, Dental Visits, and Other Challenging Procedures: Advice for Health Care Professionals-
     This document is designed to provide guidance to health care professionals on how to make visits go as smoothly as possible for patients with ASDs. It includes steps an office can take to better prepare for these visits.

     The following resources are fact sheets that provide primary care professionals with background information about a variety of topics. They can be used to prepare for questions parents may ask during a visit.

     Adolescence and Transition to Adulthood
     Asperger Syndrome
     Behavioral Principles
     Complementary and
     Alternative Medicine
     Therapies
     Dietary Treatments
     Used for Behavioral
     Management
     Eating and Nutrition
     Gastrointestinal
     Problems
     How to Decide on
     Treatments When Parents Are Seeking
     Complementary and Alternative Medicine
     Psychopharmacology
     Seizures and Epilepsy
     Sleep Disorders
     Toilet Training

116. 
     Mich
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:28:06

     Mich, where was there an argument between biomedical and ABA on this thread?

     Pardon me. I meant in general. It seems to me that both sides get so overheated that their own approach is the ONLY one and I get tired of it.

     I’m going to bow out now. I was hoping to offer an opinion in spirit of cooperation, but I see that this isn’t going to be possible. Please, everyone, keep arguing. I’ll be over in the corner working on sight words with my children. When you’re done arguing, come play at our house.

117. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:31:37

     there are adverse reactions to meds to! all kinds of them reported, and THOUSANDS of them reported to vaccinations! nothing is done about those! and they way out number those bad reactions to biomedical. you are talking about 1 bad reaction to chelation! where the wrong med was grabbed by a nurse not even a dr. find more and then lets talk!

     yeah and die off, welcome to the real world! it happens, just like with draw with diet, it’s part of the course, just like drug addicts coming off drugs. that’s an opiate.

     there is viral die off from killing of pathagentic stuff
     same for bacteria- nothing different then taking an antibiotic mainstream wise or getting SICK FROM a vacciantion because you got a shot! there are side effects from stuff which is why it’s good to be educated and research before doing anything’

     there is yeast die off which is where you see most of the ugly stuff, and yeast is toxic if popped so to speak to quickly. it IS preventable with diet, and charcole. again coming back to research.

     but you know chemos not much fun either, makes you sick but you do it for a reason, to get the bad stuff out and make the body whole. not much different

     gotta get the toxic out do the body can run as it should

118. 
     Chris
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:32:37

     jen:
     

     Those parents are willing to take the risk using biomed treatment to reverse just as you are with your child when you take him/her to get the MMR or any other vaccine to “prevent” an illness.

     Don’t the diseases themselves have high fevers, seizures and other symptoms associated with them? What are the risks of injury from getting measles, mumps and rubella compared to your list? Provide actual documentation.

     Here are some I have (notice that the MMR mania has caused an increase in measles, mumps and rubella in Europe and Japan):

     J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
     Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.
     Gindler J, Tinker S, Markowitz L, Atkinson W, Dales L, Papania MJ.

     Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Sep 4.
     MEASLES OUTBREAK IN GERMANY: CLINICAL PRESENTATION AND OUTCOME OF CHILDREN HOSPITALIZED FOR MEASLES IN 2006.
     Arenz S, Fischer R, Wildner M.

     Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Mar;28(3):173-5.
     An office-based prospective study of deafness in mumps.
     Hashimoto H, Fujioka M, Kinumaki H; Kinki Ambulatory Pediatrics Study Group.

     Auris Nasus Larynx. 2005 Jun;32(2):125-8. Epub 2005 Apr 7.
     Epidemiological study of mumps deafness in Japan.
     Kawashima Y, Ihara K, Nakamura M, Nakashima T, Fukuda S, Kitamura K.

     Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Sep;28(9):795-800.
     Rubella Outbreak in the Netherlands, 2004-2005: High Burden of Congenital Infection and Spread to Canada.
     Hahné S, Macey J, van Binnendijk R, Kohl R, Dolman S, van der Veen Y, Tipples G, Ruijs H, Mazzulli T, Timen A, van Loon A, de Melker H.

     Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.
     Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
     Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.

119. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:37:38

     Sullivan:

     “These are often explained away as “die off”.”

     You mean the Herxheimer Reaction?
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheimer_reaction

     I remember when I finally found the probiotic strain my lil guy needed. What a terrible few days but the reward was awesome and that junk needed out of his body. He had so much yeast in his system…it was just like the flu…no worse. 3 days. Then when he had a bowel movement I could actually see the yeast in his bowels I was shocked! And even thou his ped GI doc at a very well-known hospital told me a year prior that he should be on probiotics I blew it off…cause some over-the-counter “natural” product wouldn’t help my son…no way would I believe such silliness. I became a believer when I saw yeast die off in his diaper!

120. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:42:21

     i have helped hunderes if not thousands of families out on their biomedical journey over the years. all I can say is the reward is GREAT! I get letters many times daily saying thank you for the help, my child said mama, or I love you for the first time today with the changes we have made this week, or my kid rode a bike today with the changes we made this week after years of therapy not working. where it came down to a chemical or nutritional issure being what was holding them back. I have 2 other non ASD kids. both have used biomedical to help with things. one had failor to thrive and we found out her brother had a carnitnine issue. put her on it as I knew it built muscle and she also had the low tone. in 2 weeks went from 22 pounds to 32 pounds! the dr’s were ready to hospitalize her dispite her great diet. my second had the same issues, mainstream med put her on neocate, and it crashed her immune system between that and breast milk from toxic me. come to find out she was allergic to coconut, going off her immune system reregulated.

     someone posted about great plains labs. here is their plug, we have done lots of testing through them and praise God we found them
     we have split samples sending half to them and half to our hospital. the hospital found nothing and was no help in time of need, great plains came back with bacteria and yeast, names, sensitivities and resisant labels on them ect. we treated and resolved issue. went to the dr mad to which his reply is you have state insurence, this kind of test would cost us 400-800 dollars and the state won’t pay for that kind of sensitive testing. we paid 200 for it and got answers. sad that parents have to pay for those kind of answers when those that are SUPPOSE to help aren’t. even funnier that things they revelied as issues over 6 years ago our regular dr’s are now coming and saying by the way our labs have found this problem medically with your son. they are shocked when we aren’t as we have known that for years. we even had a dr rerun some tests to try and debunk what we had learned through them only to PROVE THEM right! and he cost thousands more through HIS testing methods to do so.

     so do what gives results, cause after all THAT Is what is important! results for your kids, better quality of life for them and their families and the rest can get sweep aside!

     putting hope out there
     christel

121. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:44:44

     yeah I have had that die off to! I had to go through yeast die off with our dr. with diflucan, felt like crap for 2 days like the flu! took pictures of what came out! whole colonies. our GI was FLOORED> he had only seen pictures like that in text books of bad cases…..sad to know that IS most of our kids on spectrum

122. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:50:14

     Chris…you said…
     “What does it matter what disease injured my child? The fact of the matter is that the diseases are far more dangerous than the vaccines. But I realize trying to explain or discuss this with someone who uses sockpuppets would be waste of time.”

     First, thanks for the sockpuppets comment! Wow, feel better now? Does it make you all feel better to call names?? If your child or a co-worker…or anyone you respect doesn’t agree with you on a particular subject do you seriously revert to name-calling???

     Ok, so what my questions…I was honestly curious about what disease your child was injured from for two reasons…

     1st because of the over 100 non-vaxed children I know in my community and my family you are the first person I’ve ever heard or say that their child (in my generation or the previous few) that has ever been injured by a disease. I sincerely mean no disrespect when I say this but frankly I don’t believe you. Your statement peeked my interest…I honestly want to know more. I know of kids now-a-days getting chic pox or measles but lets face it, if we are all old enough we either had one of the other or both and survived.

     2nd because I’m very curious what disease that a child could get in this day in age that would harm him in such a manner that you state you have a child injured by a disease.

     3rd if you all agree that you don’t want children to be harmed then please, tell me what I should look out for so that I can make an educated decision about vaccinating…maybe your story will be the one that will change my mind???

123. 
     Chris
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:55:26

     What are the relative risks between the MMR vaccine versus getting measles, mumps and rubella?

124. 
     christel king
     September 23rd, 2009
     20:58:44

     the vaccination mania is not what causes up upswing in disease
     you talk out both sides of your mouth

     i find it so funny when you hear stories of out break. they try and blame it on a kid unvaccinated starting it, and then 2 of the 14 kids who got the break out were unvaccinated! but what they forget to say is 12 of them HAD vaccinations. hum…..lets think about that for a min. I guess that means they haven’t provented it then in the first place have they!

     if you go back in history numbers for the diseases were already on their way down from people having already been exposed and passing on immunity ect

     vaccination just happen to be around the same time.

     2nd multi vaccinations are NOT tested together. even the example you gave above shows that. having had those shots in childhood and then given new ones 20 years later is not the same thing as testing 9 shots giving in one day at one time and how that effects the immune system. kids immune systems can’t fight all that off at the same time, let alone throw in taking advise of putting in tylonal to shut down glutathione production which is your bodies natural ability to detox and protect itself from invaders.

     you wanna talk about hype! lets talk about swine flu! it’s no worse and not even touching regular flu! not even on death count or %’s but let scare everyone cause our bottom line is hurting so we can create need for a new vaccination and fix that issues and our media plays right into it! what a joke. we have had several cases in our church of the swine flu. and no joke they all laughed about how is was so much more mild then regular flu and they would take swine flu over regular flu anyday!

     flu mist (*regular) does not contain mercury
     the shots all still do
     to correct that info

125. 
     Joseph
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:12:02

     we have split samples sending half to them and half to our hospital. the hospital found nothing and was no help in time of need, great plains came back with bacteria and yeast, names, sensitivities and resisant labels on them ect.

     That’s very telling, christel, although probably not in the way you think it is. Thanks for the info.

     Surely, if there are thousands of stories of clear benefit from the GFCF diet or something else, there should be some published case reports we can evaluate. Let’s see them.

126. 
     Sullivan
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:19:23

     First, thanks for the sockpuppets comment! Wow, feel better now? Does it make you all feel better to call names?? If your child or a co-worker…or anyone you respect doesn’t agree with you on a particular subject do you seriously revert to name-calling???

     jen,

     you used multiple names in this discussion and now you are attacking the person who calls you on it?

     That’s what I call blameshifting.

127. 
     Joseph
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:20:59

     I see christel is also a denialist of the general effectiveness of vaccines. It’s probably a waste of time engaging her in further debate. It’s like debating an Obama birther or a 9/11 truther.

128. 
     Sullivan
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:21:48

     jen,

     I’ve seen people claim “die off” while using valtrex (an antiviral against the herpes virus). People claim “herxheimer reactions” where none exist. They use it to cover up adverse reactions.

129. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:32:41

     Sullivan, has I’ve stated over and over, I put in different names out of confusion not out of trying to be deceitful. Please understand and I apologize for this mistake.

     So you say you’ve seen people claim die-off…are you saying what I saw with my own two eyes and watched what my son went thru for 3days is and adverse reaction to a over-the-counter probiotic???

130. 
     Holly
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:38:37

     The notion that starting a person (in this case, a child) on a gluten-free casein free diet leads one down a “slippery slope” to the world of biomedical treatments is fairly subjective. Do you have research to prove your theory?

     For us, it took two days to “sell” us on the GFCF diet. Two days after removing milk from our son’s diet, his stomach bloating went completely away. The constant redness to his cheeks and ears subsided. In two days, the constant head-banging, screeching, and generally “drunk” disposition of our son TOTALLY changed. Would you dispute that these are positive changes in a boy who was diagnosed on the severe end of the autism spectrum?

     When we decided to change his diet completely, he started looking at us, seeking us out, and playing again. Yet, no tests have ever showed a traditional allergy to wheat, or milk. In spite of the lack of that traditional allergy, our (very mainstream) regular pediatrician fully endorses our dietary choices for our son. Why? Because he witnessed the positive changes to ouur son’s pjysical condition as well as his behaviors. We have our son’s bloodwork tested regularly at Children’s Hospital to monitor his vitamin levels…he’s a very, very healthy little guy compared to the way he was before the diet. AND YES —we do supplement his diet! He takes whole food water soluble vitamin supplements, probiotics, dietary enzymes, and biotin. All fully endorsed by his developmental pediatrician at Children’s. A far cry from being a “charlatan!”

     This little man has a battle ahead of him, and it’s our job to make sure his body is as healthy as it can be. My choice is to NOT feed him pop tarts, cheetos and pepsi.

     The evidence of the GFCF diet’s effectiveness for autistic children with coexisting GI disorders will go beyond anecdotal when a double blind study (consisting of more than 12 children and a chart review, thank you) is fully funded and executed. You are doing FAR more harm than good by dismissing the GFCF diet based on what seems to be purely your personal opinion. A simple dietary change could truly help a great many children.

131. 
     Another visitor
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:43:46

     Jen,

     Let me try and explain the basics, and then perhaps you could go away and think about it.

     An unscrupulous, money-grabbing, fame-hungry doctor is hired by a lawyer, at public expense, to propound the theory that eating pork pies causes autism. They have no evidence for this, but what the hell?

     Following extensive media coverage of this extraordinary claim, many parents of autistic children who seem to remember feeding their children with pork pies come forward declaring that they are the living proof of the theory.

     Other parents, who never had a pork pie in the house from one year to the next, also come forward claiming to be victims of the pie scam. They assume leadership roles, blaming a conspiracy by the meat industry. Mostly they are women, and shun their husbands who point out that what they are doing is fraud. Who cares? Those Big Meat people are bigger liars than we are, and we need the money, and we know it was the pie, because mothers can tell.

     Thus, the claim takes hold.

     In short, you have no more evidence that vaccines injured your child than you have evidence that it was a Thursday that did it.

     Children have developed autism after:

     Trips to the zoo.
     Baptism.
     Traveling on aircraft.
     Watching television.
     Loud noises.
     Heavy rainfall.
     Thursday.
     Pork pies.

     You would have some harrowing tale to tell, and all the evidence suggests you would have had much the same tale if – like for example Michelle Cedillo – your child showed the first signs before s/he was vaccinated.

     Look to your hatred. It only makes things worse.

132. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:45:33

     Joseph said…
     “I see christel is also a denialist of the general effectiveness of vaccines. It’s probably a waste of time engaging her in further debate.”

     Christel is not a denialist…she’s a parent who has seen both sides. She’s done her research time and time again and she keeps coming back to the same conclusion. And I’m sure she is a parent who loves her child(ren) and has choose for them to step-away from vaccines because for her child(ren) they caused a reaction has reviewed all the data and isn’t willing to take that risk.

     I think it suffice to say we are all good people with all good-intentions. I think its ok to agree to disagree. And for us we all have different views or manners in which to raise our child…what is the best fit for our family. Parents on both sides of the fence are doing what they either know or feel is right for their child’s safety.

     I think future posters should respect parent’s in allowing them to feel safe in forum’s where they can express themselves and ask questions. I think if arguments are to be created I think they are best handled with data rather then the words of an exhausted and frustrated mother.

133. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 23rd, 2009
     21:56:58

     Holly,

     I’m going to repeat a comment I already made up above. No one would argue that a child who has lactose intolerance or an actual allergy to milk should still drink lactose-containing milk. In that case, as in all real life situations, there’s a balance between risk and benefit. If you want to argue that an autistic child has one of these conditions, or celiac disease, and genuinely feels better on a milk-free diet, I wouldn’t argue with you. The problem is that GFCF is held up as a cure for autism, not for lactose intolerance, milk allergy or celiac. Most autistic kids aren’t even tested for those conditions before they are put on the diet.

     And if they don’t improve on GFCF, then it’s the parent’s fault. They aren’t being careful enough. They are using non-GFCF shampoo, play-doh or bandaids. They aren’t trying hard enough. It’s the same with all bio-med treatments. If it isn’t working, it’s because you haven’t tried enough things, not because the things aren’t working. This lead to terrible guilt on the parent’s part. Being called a refrigerator mother is nothing in comparison to the guilt some of these parents, including “Mary”, feels when their child doesn’t recover.

     Holly, here are the symptoms of lactose intolerance: “The common symptoms of lactose intolerance are gastrointestinal, primarily, abdominal pain, diarrhea , flatulence (passing gas), and, less commonly, abdominal bloating, abdominal distention, and nausea. ”

     Don’t you think it possible that your son does have lactose intolerance? Congratulations on doing nutritional monitoring. If you are going to go GFCF, that’s certainly a good idea.

     As for whether GFCF leads one into the path of more extreme biomed, that’s certainly been my observation over many years of reading yahoo group posts. “Mary” is a perfect case-in-point. GFCF is the very first biomed treatment she considered trying. In her case, it certainly led to more extreme treatments.

     As for a rigorous GFCF study, there is one underway:

     http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00090428

     It’s only 30 children, but that’s better than 12.

134. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:11:15

     Dear Another Vistor, thank you for your comments, its much appreciated. You don’t need to “break it down” as that break-down has already happened. I’ve thought about it all (vaccines), Autism aside too, and did almost 4yrs of extensive research. Please believe me, I’ve truly want to believe that vaccines are safe and effective but the data is just not there! I cried for two weeks when I got done with most of the info. I don’t want to be an “outcast”, I don’t wish for something to happen to my children, I feel the mainstream doesn’t quite want everyone to catch on.

     I don’t want to think that the pharma industry is a scam but I just can’t see proof that it is not, as a whole. I do believe in medicine, doctor, hospitals, etc. but I think the pharma and government are in bed together and are getting too greedy with vaccines. I think the number of vaccines a child gets today vs when we were kids is ridiculous. Its just too many too soon! Its alarming. Autism aside, the number of vaccines they want a child to get at such young ages is very alarming. The commercials that are ALWAYS on the television…the way they sell their drugs with jingles and such…its scary.

     When my daughter was born two years ago I took her for her 2-month well check and the ped said ok, today she will be getting 8 shots. She wrote them out on a pc of paper…some with more then one vaccine in the jab. I told her I didn’t feel comfortable allowing my lil 2month old baby 8 shots. She pulled the paper from me and scratched off 4 and said ok, she really only needs 4. WTF???? What is that??? I told her I still don’t feel comfortable. I had the HIB and never returned. She is thriving and doing awesome in general. She’s never had an ear infection, like her older brother…even thou he was vaccinated against ear infections but yet received countless number of ear infections…interestingly too right after each vaccine.

     There is untruths being told and its not from the non-vax group.

135. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:20:30

     Guest Blogger…you said…”problem is that GFCF is held up as a cure for autism”

     I personally have never heard a parent with a Autistic child who is on the diet ever say it was a cure. And if you have heard them say maybe they meant cure in the sense that their child is a new child that they don’t have autistic type symptoms while on the diet. Obviously, when one goes off the diet and the symptoms return then you are right…it isn’t a “cure” per say.

     And as far as testing…as I stated earlier…its been 4yrs and still with every test taken nothing has been shown in a test that my son is suffering from any allergy however, I did a process of elimination with foods and have (took me a year) realized which foods bother him. You just can’t always rely on tests. A ped GI doc even said, such allergy tests can give be deceiving and the allergy’s don’t always show up.

136. 
     Kwombles
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:29:42

     Jen,

     Pet peeve of mine: unless you are actually a researcher, no, you did not do 4 years of extensive research. You may have done a thorough literature review, but you didn’t do a bit of research.

     And you make the mistake of availability heuristic and assume that your personal experiences and what you can readily recall are representative of objective reality.

     And considering that the antigen load is far less now than it was twenty years ago, your argument that is far too much far too soon is not based on the available science.

137. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:31:19

     Here’s a really super sweet story in hopes to end this argument on a happy and sweet note…

     http://www.torontosun.com/spor.....6-sun.html

138. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:33:37

     GFCF is held up as a cure for autism:

     Karen Seroussi, Unraveling the Mystery of Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorder: A Mother’s Story of Research & Recovery: Convinced that the inability to digest certain proteins was contributing to her son’s condition and that his autism was related to his reaction to MMR vaccines, Seroussi eliminated suspect foods from his diet; he made such dramatic improvement that, by age four, he was functioning normally.

     Jenny McCarthy, ” There are some who wonder what we mean when we say “recovering” from autism. They confuse the word recover with cure. While you may not be able to cure an injury caused in a terrible car accident, you can recover; you can regain many skills that you once lost. In the case of autism, we think there are treatments that often bring about such healing, so that the observable symptoms of the condition no longer exist. Even though we may no longer see any symptoms of autism, we can’t say a child is “cured” because we do not know what they would have been like had they never been injured.

     We believe what helped Evan recover was starting a gluten-free, casein-free diet, vitamin supplementation, detox of metals, and anti-fungals for yeast overgrowth that plagued his intestines. Once Evan’s neurological function was recovered through these medical treatments, speech therapy and applied behavior analysis helped him quickly learn the skills he could not learn while he was frozen in autism. After we implemented these therapies for one year, the state re-evaluated Evan for further services. They spent five minutes with Evan and said, “What happened? We’ve never seen a recovery like this.”

139. 
     David N. Brown
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:38:04

     Those parents are willing to take the risk using biomed treatment to reverse just as you are with your child when you take him/her to get the MMR or any other vaccine to “prevent” an illness.

     Jen,
     I would have little to say against someone who evaluated the safety of, for example, DMPS and MMR and found BOTH or NEITHER unacceptable. At least that would be informed and consistent. I have yet to see anything of the kind among biomed/anti-vaccine groups. What seems to me to be happening instead is that vaccines are instinctively distrusted simply because they are made by “Big Pharma”, but instinctively trust “biomed” remedies because they are made or marketed by small companies who present their wares as “natural” etc.

140. 
     Sullivan
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:43:21

     if you go back in history numbers for the diseases were already on their way down from people having already been exposed and passing on immunity ect

     vaccination just happen to be around the same time.

     These discussions follow such a predictable pattern. Always, always, after a while someone starts arguing that vaccines don’t really work, the diseases were going away anyway.

     To back this up, people usually use death rate rather than actual sickness rate graphs.

     Measles, just happened to go away shortly after the vaccine was licensed in about 1964.

     Rubella, just happened to go away a few years later…coincident with the introduction of the vaccine in 1969.

     Mumps just happened to go away after the vaccine was introduced in 1967.

     Polio just happened to go away starting in the 1950’s.

     Hib went away starting about 1988, coincident with the introduction of the vaccine.

     Rotavirus infections are down about 80% since the introduction of the vaccine in the last decade.

     Funny how all these diseases decide to go away at the same time as the vaccines are introduced.

141. 
     David N. Brown
     September 23rd, 2009
     22:48:08

     Also, a joke on comparative risk:
     Traveler to Native: “Do you worry about being attacked by Piranhas?”
     Native: “No… The alligators keep their numbers down.”

142. 
     passionlessDrone
     September 23rd, 2009
     23:00:06

     Hi Kwombles –

     And considering that the antigen load is far less now than it was twenty years ago, your argument that is far too much far too soon is not based on the available science.

     The ‘reduced antigen load’ argument is a horrible argument based on a gross over simplification and reliance on people not applying primitive logical filters. The problem with this argument is that the entire decrease in antigen load is from the change from DTP to DTaP.

     Take a look at the fancy graph on page 4 of this article by the guy that everyone either loves to love or loves to hate.

     http://www.fi.edu/wellness/Pediatrics109.pdf

     If antigen loads were a meaningful measurement of vaccine safety levels, then our current schedule is roughly double as dangerous as the time period after DTaP was introduced, by varicella, Hib, and rotovirus were introduced.

     That being said, ‘too many too soon’ is a bit simplistic; unfortunately, it may have science to back it up. For example, you might try looking at:

     Postnatal Programming of the Innate Immune Response

     Or

     Early-life programming of later-life brain and behavior: a critical role for the immune system

     Both are review papers that describe two dozen or more articles wherein researchers have found that simply challenging the immune system during critical developmental timeframes has permenant, modifications to immune function, behavior, and stress response. In several experiments, use of either cytokine inhibitors or direct use of inflammatory cytokines have been used to validate that it is the immune response, as opposed to the bacterial or viral mimic in use that is causing changes. Even more troubling are other findings involving the ‘double hit’ hypothesis showing that repeated challenges have syngergistic effects on functions such as seizure succeptibility and immune imbalance.

     We’ve taken to believing there is a free lunch and we are clever enough to fool a system that has developed over millions of years; I’m not so sure.

     – pD

143. 
     jen
     September 23rd, 2009
     23:21:30

     Kwombles said…

     “Pet peeve of mine: unless you are actually a researcher, no, you did not do 4 years of extensive research. You may have done a thorough literature review, but you didn’t do a bit of research.”

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research
     “Research can be defined to be search for knowledge or any systematic investigation to establish facts. “Research can use the scientific method, but need not do so.”

     Also, data…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data
     “Data can be the basis of graphs, images, or observations”

     My research on this topic has been both basic and observational.
     I followed the process.

     • Formation of the topic
     • Hypothesis
     • Conceptual definitions
     • Operational definition
     • Gathering of data
     • Analysis of data
     • Test, revising of hypothesis
     • Conclusion, iteration if necessary

     I also majored in sociology so, kinda know a little about research. I used literature review for my research yes you are right and no I did not go to a lab and test out a vaccine. I think you need to be more aware of the what the word research means in its entirety.

144. 
     Sullivan
     September 23rd, 2009
     23:43:35

     pD—
     Dr. Offit made that paper available on the pediatrics website—much easier to read than that scan:

     http://pediatrics.aappublicati...../109/1/124

145. 
     Kwombles
     September 23rd, 2009
     23:57:34

     I’d say I was sorry, and that I didn’t mean to be rude, but a friend of mine has pointed out on her blog, that when we say that kind of stuff, we probably do mean to be.

     So, I do mean to be somewhat scathing in my response. I’d say oops, my bad, but, oddly enough, no, after reading Jen’s shenanigans off and on all day and her sense of moral superiority, to read her latest trot-out where she invokes wiki and her major in one fell swoop and say her research has been basic, ah well. I’m sure folks will understand that the temptation to be pissy is entirely too much to resist at this point.

     Ah, Jen, you trotted out Wiki; I have to bow before that, how can I not? I am aware of the use of the term research by the public and I’m pointing out that it is not in fact research. It is a literature review. And when you use research instead of literature review, well, it’s kind of like using podium for lectern. I may get what the public use of the term is, but I also know it is a misuse of the term. It may be pedantic, but there is a place for precision of language. And that tends to be, certainly, in scientific matters.

     Gosh, if you hadn’t made me aware of the scientific process, I might have been lost. So, you’re telling me you’ve carried out basic research. You said you followed the process. On what? On your child? How did you account for confounding variables? Really, and then you retested? Do tell, let us benefit from your knowledge. After all, by asserting that you kinda know a little about research, you are appealing to authority, right?

     Wow. I am humbled before your greater information. Forget that you’ve provided no evidence whatsoever. Anecdotes and the contention that it’s mean to pick on parents, as well as sockpuppets and accusations that calling you on that is calling you names, that’s what you have provided today. Forget that we are almost entirely either parents of autistic children or autistic here. You know better. Again, I have to say, wow. Thanks, I’m sure we all feel chagrined.

146. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 24th, 2009
     00:39:46

     I’m going to try to have the last word here, but I’m sure it won’t stick.

     Still . . .

     The same old arguments are trotted out here. And we are preaching to the (two different) choirs. We can argue amongst ourselves for an eternity.

     The problem, for me, lies with the echo chamber of the “autism biomedical treatment” yahoo groups. This is where the opportunity lies to change some minds. There are new parents joining these groups every day, credulously sucking up all the woo they encounter, in a desperate effort to “normalize” “cure” or “recover” their child.

     I’d urge all of you who really care about children to join one of these groups. Please be forceful, and argue against (or for) the “treatments” you think have some evidence. These groups are calling out for some balance. Right now they are an echo chamber, and a huge source of income for the quacks.

     Remember, Mary spends about $2K a month on treatments for her child. Someone is getting rich. And Saul is suffering.

147. 
     MJ
     September 24th, 2009
     00:51:09

     Guest Blogger, you are a pathetic excuse for a human being. You write a long post critical of a mother who is attempting to help her child the best way that she knows how. You decide that you don’t like what she is doing so you cherry pick her words and hold her up for public ridicule.

     If you are really the parent of any child, let alone one with special needs, you should know better.

     You don’t even have the courage to stand up and take credit for your own words.

     Truly pathetic.

148. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 24th, 2009
     01:10:59

     Wow! Did I ever say that the mother who “treated” her child with the big list of “treatments” which BTW, includes many prescription drugs, was anything but a caring, if mislead parent? The mother, who, for your information, also posts under a pseudonym. And no wonder, with hatred out there like this.

     And by revealing this little dirty secret of the “autism biomedical treatment” industry, you think I am truly pathetic. You just don’t like to see the light cast on your tiny little (echo chamber) corner of the internet.

149. 
     Sullivan
     September 24th, 2009
     01:33:39

     Kwombles,

     the whole idea of what is research bothers me as well. I can “research” what movie to see. I can “research” what is the safest car.

     More importantly, my doctor can “research” what the best treatments are for my family.

     None of these are on the same level as “research” where one finds information previously unknown to anyone. It is unfortunate that they use the same word.

150. 
     Chris
     September 24th, 2009
     01:50:57

     Guest Blogger:
     

     Wow! Did I ever say that the mother who “treated” her child with the big list of “treatments” which BTW, includes many prescription drugs, was anything but a caring, if mislead parent?

     Back when I was on the listserv over five years ago many of us were told we were not doing enough if we did not do the supplements, the chelation, and take the kids to a DAN! doctor. This was even though most of us had our kids in private speech and/or occupational/physical therapies, plus various specialist doctors like neurologists and developmental pediatricians.

     The chelation therapy, especially with IVs scared me. When I posted my reservations on the listserv, I got a personal email telling me that I was “dangerous” for posting my views. So I quit the listserv. And then half a year later, a kid going through IV chelation (strapped to the table!) died.

151. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     01:57:21

     i think it’s funny that i have posted more messages and they haven’t been posted! afraid to put them out here?

152. 
     passionlessDrone
     September 24th, 2009
     02:10:51

     Hi Sullivan –
     Thank you. I cannot figure out why, but for some reason I sometimes have problems finding that article. You are correct in that it is much simpler to read.

     – pD

153. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     02:18:16

     RESEARCH

     Stony Brook: Hep B Vaccine Linked to Autism
     “Hepatitis B Vaccination of Male Neonates and Autism”

     Annals of Epidemiology Vol. 19, No. 9 ABSTRACTS (ACE) September 2009: 651-680 p. 659 (Medical research journal. – ed) CM Gallagher, MS Goodman, Graduate Program in Public Health, Stony Brook University Medical Center, Stony Brook, NY

     tinyurl.com/mwfeo4

     PURPOSE: Universal newborn immunization with hepatitis B vaccine was recommended in 1991; however, safety findings are mixed. The Vaccine Safety Datalink Workgroup reported no association between hepatitis B vaccination at birth and febrile episodes or neurological adverse events. Other studies found positive associations between hepatitis B vaccination and ear infection, pharyngitis, and chronic arthritis; as well as receipt of early intervention/ special education services (EIS); in probability samples of U.S. children. Children with autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) comprise a growing caseload for EIS. We evaluated the association between hepatitis B vaccination of male neonates and parental report of ASD.
     METHODS: This cross-sectional study used U.S. probability samples obtained from National Health Interview Survey 1997-2002 datasets. Logistic regression modeling was used to estimate the effect of neonatal hepatitis B vaccination on ASD risk among boys age 3-17 years with shot records, adjusted for race, maternal education, and two-parent household.
     RESULTS: Boys who received the hepatitis B vaccine during the first month of life had 2.94 greater odds for ASD (nZ31 of 7,486; OR Z 2.94; p Z 0.03; 95% CI Z 1.10, 7.90) compared to later- or unvaccinated boys. Non-Hispanic white boys were 61%less likely to have CIZ0.16, 0.94">ASD relative to non-white boys.
     CONCLUSION: Findings suggest that U.S. male neonates vaccinated with hepatitis B vaccine had a 3-fold greater risk of ASD; risk was greatest for non-white boys.

154. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     02:20:12

     Lurker, Jake Crosby and people who are actually important are routinely allowed to comment on this site, including members of the AoA team, Thoughtful House and Generation Rescue. There’s very little that could be posted that hasn’t been allowed on and discussed before.

155. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     02:22:19

     Also, discussion of that study should be done in the thread that is already open.

     It would be nice if you actually did more than cut and paste.

156. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     02:29:49

     Can children with autism recover? If so, how?
     Helt M, Kelley E, Kinsbourne M, Pandey J, Boorstein H, Herbert M, Fein D.
     Department of Psychology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06268, USA. molly.helt@uconn.edu

     Although Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) are generally assumed to be lifelong, we review evidence that between 3% and 25% of children reportedly lose their ASD diagnosis and enter the normal range of cognitive, adaptive and social skills. Predictors of recovery include relatively high intelligence, receptive language, verbal and motor imitation, and motor development, but not overall symptom severity. Earlier age of diagnosis and treatment, and a diagnosis of Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified are also favorable signs. The presence of seizures, mental retardation and genetic syndromes are unfavorable signs, whereas head growth does not predict outcome. Controlled studies that report the most recovery came about after the use of behavioral techniques. Residual vulnerabilities affect higher-order communication and attention. Tics, depression and phobias are frequent residual co-morbidities after recovery. Possible mechanisms of recovery include: normalizing input by forcing attention outward or enriching the environment; promoting the reinforcement value of social stimuli; preventing interfering behaviors; mass practice of weak skills; reducing stress and stabilizing arousal. Improving nutrition and sleep quality is non

157. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     02:32:01

     ps. I AM part of generation rescue.

158. 
     David N. Brown
     September 24th, 2009
     02:37:54

     Christel King,
     When I repeatedly told AOA they overstated Paul Offit’s Rotateq income by $39M, they pulled the only correction that got up at all and said it was “posted in error”. So who are you to complain?

159. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     02:45:54

     The Severity Of Autism Is Directly Linked To Heavy Metals In The Body

     From cafemom.com. bit.ly/2CWgUd

     The study, “The Severity of Autism Is Associated With Toxic Metal Body Burden and Red Blood Cell Glutathione Levels” has determined that the severity of autism is directly linked to heavy metal levels. In 2007, the Centers for Disease Control reported that 1 in 150 children were diagnosed with autism and boys out number girls four to one.
     This study is one of three papers that were generated from the original research study of determining DMSA’s effectiveness in the autistic population as a treatment option. DMSA is a licensed medication for treating lead poisoning and indicated in cases meeting toxic criteria. DMSA, commonly known as “Chelation Therapy” is widely used off-label for other metal exposures, e.g. mercury. A Chelator is a medication that binds to heavy metals in the body and aids in its excretion. In this study, DMSA was given to 63 children (ages 3 -8 years) in order to determine the levels of toxic metals in their body. It was clearly indicated that higher levels of toxic metals was directly associated with more severe autistic symptoms. This is one of the strongest studies to date linking the severity of autism to heavy metal toxicity.
     The primary investigators on this study were Matthew Baral, N.D., Chair of the Department of Pediatric Medicine and Associate Professor of Pediatrics at SCNM and James B. Adams, Ph.D., Adjunct Professor in the Division of Basic Medical Sciences at SCNM.
     To read the study in its entirety, go to bit.ly/IAsvF

160. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     02:46:24

     Cut and pasting of studies is not a very good technique, nor is it very considerate to those of us who not only have to wade through it but also have to second guess the intent and arguement of the poster, only to find the study has been discussed here already over 9 months ago as a basic google search would have shown.

161. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     02:49:01

     Omega-3, Vitamin E Mix Shows Potential
     For Autistic Speech

     By Stephen Daniells. bit.ly/2hqU8h

     A combination of omega-3 fatty acids and vitamin E may lead to speech improvements in autistic children with verbal disorders, suggests a new study.
     Verbal apraxia is a speech disorder common in autism, and an estimated 50 per cent of children with autism have apraxia. Furthermore, many thousands more are reported to have apraxia but are not autistic.
     According to new research published in the journal Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine, daily supplements of omega-3 and vitamin E were associated with improvements in speech, imitation, eye contact, and behaviour.
     Claudia Morris from the Children’s Hospital and Research Center Oakland (CHRCO) and Marilyn Agin from the Saint Vincent Medical Center in New York recruited families with experiences of omega-3 fatty acid and vitamin E supplementation. The majority of families used doses of 800 IU of vitamin E, while the average omega-3 consumption was 280 to 840 mg DHA and 695 to 2,085mg EPA.
     The ratios and dosages determined through the work with the study led to a patent for Dr Morris through the CHRCO (US patent # 2008/002216). The patented formulation is licensed exclusively to Illinois-based NourishLife from CHRCO.
     Kate Bolton, VP of speech nutrients at NourishLife, told NutraIngredients: “The results of the study are significant in that 97 per cent of the participants with apraxia and/or on the autism spectrum reported dramatic improvements while taking a combination of omega-3 fatty acids and vitamin E.
     “The study represents the largest summary of children with apraxia to date,” she added.
     “Antidotal evidence had previously shown that omega-3 can help children with apraxia and those known as ‘late talkers’. The researchers discovered that they symptoms presented by children with apraxia mirror those of vitamin E deficiency,” said Bolton. “The addition of high dose vitamin E with omega-3 fatty acids is the breakthrough.”
     Study details The researchers recruited 187 children with verbal apraxia who had received vitamin E plus polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementation. They noted that verbal apraxia is not only a speech disorder but rather a complex syndrome that affects a person’s neurologic function.
     A subgroup of children emerged, characterised by autism, sensory issues, low muscle tone, food allergy, coordination problems, and impaired gastrointestinal function.
     The presence of multiple allergies and intestinal problems are associated with nutritional deficiencies including vitamin E, omega-3, and carnitine. Following supplementation, 181 families (97 per cent) reported “dramatic improvements in a number of areas”, said the researchers. These included speech, behaviour, eye contact, and other sensory issues.
     “We characterize a novel apraxia phenotype that responds to polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E,” wrote the researchers.
     “Appropriate screening may identify a subgroup of children with a previously unrecognized syndrome of allergy, apraxia, and malabsorption who are responsive to nutritional interventions in addition to traditional speech and occupational therapy,” they added.
     “Controlled trials in apraxia and autism spectrum disorders are warranted,” concluded Morris and Agin.
     Bolton confirmed that work is indeed ongoing in this area, with the a clinical study and protocol designed to continue to understand the impact omega-3 and vitamin E have on autism and verbal apraxia, and to begin to determine the underlying mechanisms in verbal apraxia. However, funding for the study is yet to be secured, she said.
     Source: Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine July/August 2009, Volume 15, Number 4, Pages 34-43 “Syndrome of allergy, apraxia, and malabsorption: Characterisation of a neurodevelopmental phenotype that responds to omega-3 and vitamin E supplementation”
     Authors: C.R. Morris, M.C. Agin

     • • •

162. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     02:51:43

     you said you wanted research! you won’t take my word,. you can’t have it both ways. wasn’t here 9 months ago, had no need to be. you attacked a fellow mom which by the way I have been corrisponding with “mary” today and she deserve a voice on her side with the very personal attacks on her life! so I am posting some on those suppliments also under attack.

163. 
     passionlessDrone
     September 24th, 2009
     03:02:57

     Hi Guest Blogger –
     Leaving so soon? You’ve generated a lot of traffic, way more than I’ve seen on this site in a long time. Maybe ever.

     The problem, for me, lies with the echo chamber of the “autism biomedical treatment” yahoo groups. This is where the opportunity lies to change some minds.

     The funny thing is that you are making headway in the opposite direction. The neophyte parent who runs across this blog posting is going to find someone who has meticulously combed through thousands of personal posts by someone with the intent purpose of airing dirty laundy, accusations of scientific illiteracy and unsubstantiated dime store psychoanalysis. This is, in large part, a representative sampling of what the ‘anti biomed’ crowd has to offer, and I hope it gets aired frequently; it will simply drive more people to try to help their children with medical interventions. Please, please, keep it up.

     As far as echo chambers go, the irony again looms very large. I will provide an example.

     After reading a very large number of her posts, I’d say that this is a typical positive post. And this is for a “treatment” on which she is willing to spend $2800 a month.

     (From Guest Bloggers response to me, comment 64227)

     You may not be aware of this, but we have two open label studies of IVIG showing improvements in subsets of children with IVIG, including one patient who showed complete remission of autistic behaviors. Tragically, after treatment stopped, the child experienced a complete regression.

     Intravenous immunoglobulin treatment of children with autism.

     Dysregulated immune system in children with autism: beneficial effects of intravenous immune globulin on autistic characteristics

     There is a deep body of literature concerning immunological abnormalities in the autism population; including of all things, decreased levels of IgG.

     Reduced levels of immunoglobulin in children with autism correlates with behavioral symptoms

     Treatment with IVIG is being investigated for neurodegnerative diseases; including those with neuroinflammatory components. Here researchers found that previous treatment with IVIG reduced the risk of Alzheimer’s. Here is another one concerning IVIG use in a variety of conditions, with a mechanism of action involving a reduction in pro-inflammatory cytokines. There are also several papers on the mechanisms of action by which IVIG achieves is immunomodulatory, down regulating effects; among the listed pathways of action are down regulation of macrophages, decreased entry of immune cells into the blood brain barrier, and normalization of cytokine balances.

     In autism the autism realm, we know without any doubt that children with autism generate pro-inflammatory cytokines at rates much higher than their undiagnosed peers to a variety of stimulants. Enstrom, Ashwood, Jyounouchi all showed this, among others.

     Further, we know that if you have autism, you are more likely to have increased levels of MIF, a known promoter of the innate immune response; highly correlated with inflammatory diseases like asthma and arthritis.

     Within the CNS, our available evidence tells us that people with autism are more likely to have an ongoing immune response, as measured by Vargas, Li, Chez, and Garbet.

     So you see, IVIG as a “treatment” for autism isn’t a matter of someone throwing darts at expensive options, but instead, a targeted treatment based on a growing body of evidence. Clearly, there is a large autoimmune component to autism, and IVIG is a safe, powerful weapon against autoinflammatory immune disorders.

     As someone who has been spending their time disdainfully reading and cataloging hundreds, or thousands of other peoples posts regarding how they are treating their child, the fact that you might not have known about any of the above studies seems understandable. But to then go on and complain about echo chambers and the dangers of unqualified opinions floating around the internet is a truly amazing display of irony.

     – pD

164. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:03:19

     taking and extracing 5-7 peices of 3500 emails posted to a group over 8 years, where a mom was reaching out for help and felt safe to put her vulnerablity and deepest emotions out to and allowed to be real in vulnerable moments isn’t very good technique, nor is it very considerate either.

165. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:04:11

     taking and extracting 5-7 peices of 3500 emails posted to a group over 8 years, where a mom was reaching out for help and felt safe to put her vulnerablity and deepest emotions out to and allowed to be real in vulnerable moments isn’t very good technique, nor is it very considerate either.

166. 
     Sullivan
     September 24th, 2009
     03:04:12

     i think it’s funny that i have posted more messages and they haven’t been posted! afraid to put them out here?

     Spare me, please. I have deleted very few non-spam messages in the entire time I have worked on this blog.

     Tell you what. Copy every message and email to me at sullivansjourney@gmail.com and I’ll make sure it gets published.

167. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:07:49

     Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea.

168. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     03:09:47

     No one is trying to have it both ways.

     The people here want the research to back up what you say. That means using the research to actually back up what you say, not just cutting and pasting.

     As to 9-months ago? The initial thread is the second result on google. No excuses there then.

     “you attacked a fellow mom”

     I did no such thing. Retract that accusation.

     As an aside, the fact that she is a ‘fellow mom’ is irrelevant to whether you should defend her. She has no right to be immune from criticism, so if you know where GB has lied, then correct him/her and show how.

169. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:12:26

     Joseph if you look at ALL the statement you would see that it IS
     informative, the dr admitted they don’t test to that sensitive to a level!
     (at the hospital) and took responsibility stating we had done a QUALITY
     test through great plains and was happy we had seen results when treating.
     the sad part is because were poor and on the state funding they wouldn’t
     cover that quality. by the way now that are are better in a financial
     status our bluecross blue sheild that we are paying for DOES cover them.
     gotta love how money talks hum!

170. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:13:02

     “Surely, if there are thousands of stories of clear benefit from the GFCF
     diet or something else, there should be some published case reports we can
     evaluate. Let’s see them.”

     there are 10,000 plus on the groups that have been talked about here! the
     voices are getting louder on there benifit., stick around a few decades and
     you will hear more and likly see them start to get perscribed in dr’s
     offices as more and more benifits are seen from more and more families
     hearing and seeing the benifits. in our school our son went to at 4 we were
     the only family doing the diet,. (all ASD familes) our son soared through
     materials that others weren’t and they were having to WRITE stuff for him to
     where he grew out of the schools ability to keep up with him. teachers and
     therapist pulled us aside saying they could tell we were doing something
     different and wished more families would give it a try. mainstreamed school
     same thing, in home therapist same things. they would actually hand out our
     number to encourage families to get in touch with us after watching our son
     make great gains while other families just snailed along. we actually had
     the ped that GAVE his vacinations that wrote us off at first (saying he is
     boy he will talk eventually, he is just distracted by OTHER skills he is
     gaining the lang hasn’t really disappeared ect) call us after he got dxed
     when we change to another dr, appologizing and asked us to come back to his
     practice. he READ the book that changed our life, (by the way he also
     DELIVERED OUR CHILD) and saw him disappear ect.n he fought the hospital to
     give his allergy shots, worked with our DAN long distance, fought for the
     b12 shots for us with the state and the secretin shots ect. he learned
     through our son after that instead of writing us off, and gave families our
     name as well after they got dxes for us to offer hope instead of a just put
     them in an institution speech the local nuro gave families like ours. he
     himself called us when HIS kid had issues and colic and we helped him figure
     out a milk allergy for his own son….. like I said we have taken
     UNBELIEVERS and turned there head by them KNOWING us, and seeing the gains
     in our son with doing biomedical,. instead of them running, they have
     imbraced as there heads have turned seeing amazing things. our therapist
     NOTED all the changes in our son in just 2 weeks time of going on diet. 2
     of them unbelievers before us as well. our son by the way at time of dx we
     were told he would never talk again and he was soooooo sever and violent
     that were suppose to pad the walls of his room, take out all the toys only
     leave a matress, and just put food in his room 3 times a day and have a
     helmet on him 24 hours a day to prevent him from self induced brain
     damage…..NOW with biomedical – in mainstreamed 3 grade (has been for 3
     years now) enjoying normal life moments, plays with his toys, loves
     interaction and being social, has dreams for his future to be a builder, a
     preacher, ect has a girl friend he says he want to get married some day and
     have kids ect. all things we lost with autism that are now back thanks to
     LOTS Of work by mom and dad, and biomedical and dr’s believeing in us as we
     went on our journey and lots of research on our sons medical issues and what
     things can help. not ALL biomedical either. we did ABA, ST, OT, PT, DT,
     antibiotics, antifungal, secretin, LDN all being medical scripts from DR’s,
     MD’s BUT all the therapist who worked with him before and after BIOMEDICAL
     said that they saw massive differences. we were NOT making gains with ABA,
     and DT and ST prior to biomedical. Biomedical allowed him that luxurey to
     process and make gains in those areas when coupled with them

171. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:14:19

     risks for vaccine and getting the disease are ruffly the same! that’s the
     point

     see you have yet to prove how “saul” is suffereing. sounds like he is doing
     better from what he has done! his quality of life is better. in that 2K
     would be food, qualify food, so your right KRAFT isn’t getting rich! haha,
     the people growing healthy food, with rich nutrients are paying paid for
     their quality, and the dr’s aren’t getting rich because he is healthier for
     it. swithcing our diet for son took us from 200 a month for food to 800.
     and that was when it was just 3 of us. with 5 of us it’s closer to 1200 now!
     those pasta roni’s and cans of soups and spegettio’s sure are cheep but no
     nutrients, soda and koolaid cheep, not like the quality juice they now drink
     with out all the toxins in it! the rich in quality flours we now cook with
     and milk alteritive that are healthier then cows milk (which by the way
     aren’t meant for you anyway….moooooo) the higher quality oils we cook with
     instead of non food grade stuff Mcdonalds uses or crisco wants you to think
     is ok to throw in your pies and frostings! hehe. our DAN certainly isn’t
     getting rich on us! he has recovered his own granddaughter. he is in it for
     all the right reasons! compassion on families fighting the good fight to
     give their kids the best chance at life! in those numbers are also likly
     therapies that insurences SHOULD be covering like ABA, OT< PT< ST< DT. or
     b12 or other therpies shown to be effective. but hey it’s going to take
     time for “those dr’s and insurences” to see the benifit as a whole. you
     don’t see fat kids on biomed! you see healthy ones. can’t say the same for
     others. biomedical is shown us how to be healthy livers, instead of living
     for the moment of just pleasure with out thinking about what those things
     are doing to us. my son thanks me for the route we have taken, HE realizes
     it’s done him well. and he is 8. he will tell me if we have forgotten his
     suppliments. he can tell he feels “off”. I know adults on the specturm
     doing biomedical that can testify to it’s benifit as well
     heck NONspecturm people to4
     I have done the diet and suppliments and warded off GRAVES disease that
     isn’t suppose be reversable. we floored our mayo trained dr with it.
     selenium reversed it. I even let him test me 4 years out as he couldnt’
     believe it every few months as he waited to throw it back at me saying it
     wouldn’t stick undone hypoglycemia, fibro, and skin disorders…..it’s
     not just autism it helps baby…..it’s all about restored health, not autism

172. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:16:18

     viral die off can flare yeast issues which also confused often as die off.
     this is seen with valtrex, addressing the yeast issues solves this

173. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:17:45

     GI speicalist Dr Buie has great things to say and actually recommends diet
     to help autism and kids with GI issues, (works for Mass General Hospital,
     trains other hosptials around the country because of what he is seeing as a
     pattern and trend on scopes of this group of kids, works for westle hospital
     and for LADDERS) the reason much of this is recommended is because of the
     commonalities of medical problems IN our kids with autism, not BECAUSE They
     have autism.

     wow really a pork pie compairson! bad part is they have VARS showing LOTS
     Of data of reactions! reports by dr’s AND parents for decades! AND it’s
     even now been put on lables as a side effect…...AUTISM hum…...makes you
     wonder!

     donn’t bash for your choice! i have done the research as I had to make
     choices for my 2 daughters after watching my son desolve into ASD. we
     decided to wait for my daughter and do actually allergy testing BEFORE
     vaccinating before making a choice. we found out after vaccinating our son
     had an anaphatic allergy to eggs, was lactose intollerent, and allergic to a
     few other things. and I didn’t relize before vacinating him that he had
     glutathione issues and liver issues as well (although it’s debatable that
     those CAME from his vacination damage as well) bad set up! I asked for
     testing after bad reactions at his 6 month shots and was brushed off by our
     regular dr being told they couldn’t be tested that long. found out after
     the fact they could indeed be tested! we tested our daughter at 1 and sure
     enough anaphatic to eggs and peanuts. based on that and a mild milk allergy
     she was never vaccinated. has mumps titers anyway! and broke out, it was
     no big deal and not scary like everyone would make you think it would be.
     3rd child also anaphatic to eggs. so not vaccinated. I have issue on a
     religous view as well with aborted fetus tissue being used. so wouldn’t do
     them based on that. you don’t have issues with those things great! vaccinate
     your child. I would be happy if we got chicken pox to be honest and have
     immunity to it! I think it’s crazy we are vaccinating against it. now we
     set our kids up to get it later in life when its more deadly! and the
     studies are showing it wears off after like 5 years. creating more mess.
     lets go back to chicken pox party’s!

     no you have that so wrong, people don’t just say bad vaccines made by a big
     company so i hate them, and then safe biomed because of small company!
     people end up biomedical because they have been ALREADY harmed by mainstrem
     meds, and don’t trust dr’s because they hurt our kids when we trusted them
     to start with, wrote us off when we had concerns with our children and
     pushed us off when we said we are seeing concerns and they keep saying oh
     your child will just talk later, no big deal, or kids don’t just loose lang,
     or they are boys they will just talk later, or all kids flap and walk on
     their toes ect/.......

     the mistrust IS there after seeing that someone has an adgenda to make
     something off you and your child going this direction and that is why they
     have an interest for you to keep going that direction. it is true that
     going biomedical no one is getting rich off your kid.

     side note – our DAN IS a medical dr. (both of them) MD’s one an immunologist
     and the other a family dr. both supporting our direction and choices. we
     have done our testing through them, suppliments through them, scripts
     through them, and there have been things that didn’t work, we move on and
     try other things and find those that do and then keep going.

174. 
     Sullivan
     September 24th, 2009
     03:17:53

     cristel king,

     did you really think that abstract was convincing? I didn’t. Out of all the questionable science that gets trotted out to push the ideas that vaccines cause autism, that is one the most obviously weak.

     Reading an abstract someone else brings to light isn’t even research. I read that abstract a long while back when it was epublished ahead of the print date. Even that isn’t really research. I got some of the source data. Even that isn’t really research.

     What the authors found was that age (or birth year) was a risk factor for parents to report their kid as autistic. No big surprise there. Anything that changed with time would have appeared to correlate with autism.

     Even with that, Prometheus notes that there is no significant difference between the autism prevalence for the hepB vaccinated/non-hepB vaccinated groups. Therefore, no conclusions can be drawn.

     I bring this up to point out—I have looked into this in much greater depth than it appears you have. I don’t consider it research. Why do you?

175. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     03:21:49

     “taking and extracting 5-7 peices of 3500 emails posted to a group over 8 years, where a mom was reaching out for help and felt safe to put her vulnerablity and deepest emotions out to and allowed to be real in vulnerable moments isn’t very good technique, nor is it very considerate either”

     This would only apply if the posts chosen were not representative. There is nothing in the posts that does not appear representative, in fact they seem to have been chosen very well as the contents appear to fully jive with GB’s interpretations and allude not to one off things but persitent patterns of

     As Mary was deliberately not identified, nor does she appear to be identifiable unless you already know her, and all postings were as properly attributed as could be under the resrictions, accusing GB of a lack of consideration seems a bit weak.

     It’s not what I would do, but that’s not an objective arguement.

176. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:25:31

     deji

     “No one is trying to have it both ways.”

     sure you are! posting what backs what this mom is doing, and other biomed moms….about nutrition, diet ect.

     “The people here want the research to back up what you say. That means using the research to actually back up what you say, not just cutting and pasting.”

     you can kill 2 birds with one stone

     “As to 9-months ago? The initial thread is the second result on google. No excuses there then.”

     again no need to read a discussion I wasn’t part of 9 months ago. i’m here not there

     “I did no such thing. (attacking a fellow mom) Retract that accusation.

     this peice absolutly DID attack a fellow mom, calling her abusive to her son, wasting money on things not helping ect…..making her look like she didn’t research these things, and is hurting her kid which isn’t the truth at all…...twisted words and view

     “As an aside, the fact that she is a ‘fellow mom’ is irrelevant to whether you should defend her. She has no right to be immune from criticism, so if you know where GB has lied, then correct him/her and show how.”

     GB?? so is this blogger going to come and put there name to slander of this mom or afriad of the backlash? again slander with out knowledge! you don’t read a persons messages on a group and pretent to KNOW what they do daily! or take weak moments and exploit them, this blogger cut and paste yet studies can’t be! REALLY talk about unbalenced! jumping from a mom giving medical treatment, nutrients ect to abuse is a BIG jump!

     Read more: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co......z0RzEJ4ALx

177. 
     SR
     September 24th, 2009
     03:32:26

     What I find so sad and disturbing about this blog/post is that “Mary” and her son are being used by this author to attack all the parents and families that are on the Biomedical discussion groups that he lists. Guest Blogger is basically saying that they are all crack pots and that they are all harming their children. This is simply not true. Some of them have used only one or two of these treatments and found huge successes with them.
     Whether “Mary” did the right thing for her child or not is not any of this man’s business, nor is it mine. What we should really be being debated here is this…
     The actual debate is about concerns in regards to the efficacy of Biomedical Treatments and that of Standard Medical Treatments. It is unfortunate that he is taking one individual case of biomedical treatments and applying it to everyone on these sites and I think that is why so many are upset about it.
     I find it offensive that the Guest Blogger has used this woman’s story of her personal struggles with Autism and her son to define the rest of the families on these group sites.
     Did he not get one good bit of helpful information from these sites in the six plus years he has been lurking? Does he really think that all of them are throwing every conceivable biomedical treatment at their children with no respect for their health and safety?
     “Mary” obviously did the best that she could in a very difficult situation. She is not perfect and neither is the Guest Blogger, as a matter of fact none of us are. I will not debate either of their personal choices or how they chose to help their own children.
     Each child is very different, each child has a different set of circumstances that lead their parents to either biomedical treatments or the more standard medical treatments, or both, each child probably has a different set of diagnoses.
     Who is this Guest Blogger to say that these groups are encouraging people to abuse their children? Who is he to say that biomedical treatments don’t help some children? Who is he to say that they are all harming their children and that they are all suffering at the hands of their parents and that they are child abusers? That is like saying if you own a medical dictionary and you read it you are illegally treating your child without a medical degree.
     Just because they belong to a discussion group doesn’t mean that they are in a cult or something, they all have free will and can use their own mind and personal experiences to guide them in their own journey towards helping their children. They are there to learn and to ask questions and gather information that might prove helpful to their families.
     If he was a smart man he would have said that some people take many types of medical treatment too far and that we would be wise to make sure that we were careful and researched our choices before treating our children. Singling out one individual and making a point that all the parents on these sites are harming their children is unfair and not true.
     I am a responsible parent, I took my daughter to the pediatrician, she got all her vaccinations, she went to the optometrist, the psychiatrist, the neuropsychologist, the speech therapist, the occupational therapist, the best medical hospitals in the country. I took her to the speech pathologist and the psychotherapist. I love her and accept her for who she was and is. My daughter has had all of the modern medicine I could find and we did all of that, for 14 years, I believed in the MD’s, the PhD’s, the whoever’s of the modern medical world. It didn’t help. It made things worse. I know because I was there. I lived it. My child suffered because of it. Not because of biomedical treatments, but because of some doctors who practice “modern medicine”.
     I gave her the all “modern medicine” medications that were supposed to help her, unfortunately for us they caused her to have life threatening seizures, immune problems, rashes, blood sugar problems, huge weight gain, sleep disturbances, anxiety, depression, hallucinations, tremors, tics, chronic yeast problems, digestive problems and nightmares. I know this because they happened to occur while she was taking the medications and they were listed on the side effects/adverse effects warnings and they subsided when she stopped taking them.
     These lovely side effects/symptoms led to more behavior issues, educational issues, bullying, low self esteem, learning disabilities, balance and muscle deficits, loneliness, suicidal ideations, sensory problems and more. I trusted the doctors, I trusted “Modern Medicine” to help my child get better. It didn’t work. It harmed her further. Regardless of what caused her issues to start with, she was damaged further. These doctors that practice modern medicine don’t usually do tests to check the levels of the Serotonin and Dopamine before they give your 5 year old child Seroquel, Stratterra, Wellbutrin, Abilify, Prozac, Catapress, Concerta or Cymbalta. They don’t test for it, but they could.
     So, Guest Blogger I ask you… Why not? Why don’t these doctors of medicine test my child for serotonin and dopamine levels, thyroid disorders, liver function and blood sugars prior to, during or after they prescribe these very harmful (untested and not recommended for children) medications to our children? That is what I don’t understand. They could but they don’t… why?
     Biomedical Treatments are not just used for Autism recovery, nor are they used to treat only vaccine injured children. You make it sound like “biomedical” means scary experiments in the garage or something. The biomedical that I know is about healing the body and making sure that it is functioning in the best possible way so that your child can benefit from the other therapies or even modern medicine.
     There are many parents on these sites whose children have many other diagnoses. There are many other families that are doing only a few of these biomedical treatments to help their children. By labeling all of them in the same light as “Mary” or as crack pots and child abusers you are doing the responsible ones a great disservice.
     SR

178. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     03:35:05

     Sorry, but cristels posts appear to have become misaligned on my screen. I’ve worked in mental health and services for people with autism, yet I’m having trouble following the flow or the logic of her posts.

     As a side note, I’m not suprised the hospital testing for milk allergy came up negative but the DAN one didn’t. I do have to question why the hospital didn’t try out an exclusion diet to test for allergies (which appears to be what worked) as this is a fairly standard mainstream method. It may be that CK’s insurance simply didn’t pay them to do one.

     As always with bio-med mothers, I’m left with questions about the odd and vague parts of thier story.

179. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:40:29

     dedj are you the poster of this blog?? that would be the ONLY way for you know if those 5 peices were representitive?? unless of course you ALSO read all 3500 peices from this mom. again even THAT wouldn’t lead to a representative to this moms life as most people don’t post on groups unless they are in need of help! which again would be representitive of times she needed guifdence or help or again was at a low time. that again being representative of a “support group” which is what these groups are. support groups for like minds.

     not rocket science to figure out who this mom is! your put all the peices out there for people to find her (even more cruel in and of itself) you wanna put someone out there then don’t put the exact posts out there and groups! use your own words not hers…..give an example with out quotes from a real person and say this is the kind of people you may find or how some of there days can be. anyone can find any person and take snap shots of there life and make them look like snakes. heck I could do that to anyone on here just taking a few sentences here and there! doesn’t give a picture of who they are, just what those few sentences say, easily taken out of context

180. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:43:10

     david what does offits income have to do with anything???

181. 
     Emily
     September 24th, 2009
     03:46:07

     How can you slander someone whom you have not named, whom you have not identified in any way? And about whom you are not actually speaking for the record, which would preclude its being slander in the first place? Slander (and yea, verily, libel) are very difficult to demonstrate, considering the requirement that the accused must be shown to have willfully and intentionally misrepresented something relevant about the accuser. Quoting a person’s voluntary Web postings en toto and at great length simply does not qualify, especially when it’s done without actually naming that person or even providing any identifying information.

     Cutting and pasting a bunch of abstracts that many of us have read already and parsed ad nauseam isn’t very useful. I’d suggest some more review (not research, as noted) of the literature and attendant discussions before returning.

     My “fellow moms” all over the world do things to their children that show poor judgment and sometimes that are illegal and dangerous. Should they be beyond my judgment of them because they are “fellow moms”? Nope.

182. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:50:05

     ask what you will. not sure what you are refering to about allergy testing? our DAN IS an allergist MD and we have done our testing through them backing what we have seen with the diet as to the WHY’s it has worked for us. elmination and challenge testing backing it even more testing and challengeing and changing one thing at a time to figure out what each item does and effects in our kids
     he has 20 years of research into our kids and recovery of them
     starting with treating a group of adults in a group home with allergy shots and diet changes. and then them having gains they had never reached before all of the sudden! a miraculous story in and of itself on how the immune system plays into oxidative stress in our kids bodies

     as for confussion in my kids person story ask away on what you have question on confussion with

183. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     03:51:35

     there may be confussion as I had to cut and past about 10 responces that for some reason never showed up on here and I was told they weren’t deleted! so I put them in a different way to make sure they showed up

     should have done them all seperatly sorry

184. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     03:56:12

     sigh Time to address christals mistakes again.

     “sure you are! posting what backs what this mom is doing, and other biomed moms….about nutrition, diet ect.”

     This doesn’t even make sense. You are being asked to elaborate on you cut and pastes. Not exactly hard work. You simply break it up into little pieces and then reference them when you make a statement that they could be used to support.

     Did you never learn how to reference?

     “you can kill 2 birds with one stone”

     The context of this is that you’re not even killing one bird, you are blithely cutting and pasting without providing context or arguementation.

     “again no need to read a discussion I wasn’t part of 9 months ago. i’m here not there”

     But the discussion does exactly what was intended by your cut-and-paste. It discusses what the study could mean and how it could be applied. It also shows that this blog has come across it before, as you would have known by a 6 second google search. You could have added your currently non-existant discussion on the appropriate place.

     “this peice absolutly DID attack a fellow mom”

     But I did not, as you wrongly asserted. Retraction please.

     “you don’t read a persons messages on a group and pretent to KNOW what they do daily!”

     Actually, it’s kinda the purpose of these groups to tell each other what they did, what they’re going through, how they feel etc. So yes, you can use peoples post to asectain what they do daily, especially if they actually say it.

185. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     04:03:41

     what IDing info has absolutly been put out there on this mom, changing a name but not exact wording makes her just as easy to find being that it’s all on web and search engines do all the work for you. she has already been contacted today by people doing just that finding her through her quotes from the groups! how is that not personal. I am guessing this group is UK and not USA as legal may be different on slander!m slander in the US can be just telling other people something about someone that brings harm on them which for sure has been put on this mom today from all this. emotional distress from things said can be enough here. this is for sure willful and intentional. those quotes were put out again to those of like mind, to help not hinder! her words were taken out to hinder and attack her and her child. ways THEY were not intended to be used for.

     2ndly there is know way for me to know what any of you have read on any given subject at any time…..seriously! come on….

     “My “fellow moms” all over the world do things to their children that show poor judgment and sometimes that are illegal and dangerous. Should they be beyond my judgment of them because they are “fellow moms”? Nope.”

     no one is arguing that. HOWEVER, someone hasn’t posted a blog for the whole world to read with info on how to figure out who they are ect on it and attacking them for those actions and highlighting it with out and giving all full info on it. (both sides)

     and even more so if you have friends doing alwful stuff to thier kids harmfull and illegal what are you doing jumping on a mom that is out here doing HELPFUL things to her kids that aren’t illegal for legit medical issues! stop wasting your time on her and focus on them and bring attention to THOSE issues! as that would be sooo much more benificial to the whole world let alone THOSE poor kids!

186. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     04:04:13

     Sorry , but if Christal isn’t going to bother working on the structure and arguementation within her posts, then I’m not going to bother reading them.

     Good night all.

187. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 24th, 2009
     04:07:58

     Dedj is not the Guest Blogger. I thank him/her for having faith that I have chosen representative posts, and I do assure you that I have.

     Cristel, you say I called the mom abusive, yet the only use of that word in this entire post and comment section is in your comment. I think she’s easily led, credulous, and has been taken advantage of by quacks and by the group-think that permeates the “autism biomedical treatment” yahoo groups. I have no doubt that she loves her son.

     The main point of this post was to illustrate how far the practice of woo can go, and what consequences it can have for the child. This mother is not unique. She’s just one of many parents duped by this “movement”. And the kids are the hapless victims.

188. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     04:09:31

     haha I tell you to ask questions on my sons story and you run! hard to argue someones real experience there to defend themself hum!

189. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     04:38:41

     “what IDing info has absolutly been put out there on this mom, changing a name but not exact wording makes her just as easy to find being that it’s all on web and search engines do all the work for you.”

     Unfortunetly for you, I’ve already checked to see if this is true.

     So far all google results for all the quotes I’ve tried have either been this thread, or threads elsewhere discussing this thread. Threads which accuse the Guest Blogger of all sorts of things by the way. Some quotes return no matches at all.

     Also the only mention of her real name and online identity has been through these other threads responding directly to her original posts, rather than keeping it private.

     I find your claims very dubious, although possible. Thanks to your blabbing buddies I now know information about her that I couldn’t manage to get from any of GB’s posts. Thanks to your blabbing buddies I now know that ‘Mary’ has been doing exactly what GB has said she has, and her own words are right in front of my eyes confirming it.

     I’m sure she will thank you and your blabbing buddies for letting us all know exactly who she is. I now know far more detail than was gleaned from GB’s post using nothing but google.

     I don’t agree with GB’s behaviour, but that’s a subjective criticism regarding behaviour and boundaries. I’ve seen nothing that indicates he/she has been quote mining, and – thanks to your blabbing buddies – plenty to indicate he/she was pretty much spot on.

190. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     04:43:56

     “haha I tell you to ask questions on my sons story and you run! hard to argue someones real experience there to defend themself hum!”

     Actually, I either didn’t join in until after that request, or didn’t see it amongst that mess of yours that can only be termed ‘writing’ if we lower our standards a bit.

     Also, I realised on double checking it that I was mixing up your story with an alomost identical poster.

     So, even though my mistake cost you nothing, I apologise for getting the two of you confused.

     Now it’s time for your retraction. I guess I’m going to be waiting for long time.

191. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     04:44:35

     david put “I would frankly suggest attacking the “cure” industry by reporting the actions of physicians AND parents as child abuse. ”

     vindaloo- You’re equating the opinion of a trained professional mainstream doctor to that of a bunch of frantic groupthink mothers via the internet. The kid in the email quotes is being abused

     kwambles -This is a woman in dire need of intervention and a child who cannot be even remotely considered to be in a healthy, safe environment.

     stacy- and if Mary is just this close to killing herself, and does so because of it, is it worth it

     and kev- And if she kills herself because none of these fantastic ‘treatments’ did a damn thing except hurt her boy and make her broke was it worth it?

     this mom is a mom to a broken and hurting boy! she has put effort and money into helping her child and should be commended for that! acceptance of autism doesn’t help her child. even if she spent lots of money and only 1 thing helped would that not make it worth every penny! how have any of those comments helped anyone? how have they hurt this mom who KNOWS she is being talked about like this. how does this help the autism commmunity? if you truly have a child with autism you should have compation for others going through there own journey with this, NOT HATING! my prayers go out for all moms and dads and kids effected and affected by autism. may your journey bring you to those that help you and your child, not distroy you and tear you down. the world is cruel enough already for our kids and families offering very little hope and help! people already give enough naste looks in stores durring melt down, in movie theaters, at schools, at lines all over that you don’t need this crap of attack! explore all option cause no one has ALL the answers for ALL kids or there wouldn’t BE autisit kids walking around all over increasting to that 1% rate! so until then you are forced to take measures into your own hands to find those things that help. find others making gains and ask ask ask what has helped there kids in areas you have issues with and run your energy there. find commonalities and then share share share! that is how answers will come for our kids. waiting for science to have all the answers and studies to prove this or that robs you of time and energy to! by then it’s to late for your kids, and they are to old for changes and you have wasted way more money in the wait time rasing them in your own home at a lower functioning level, when they could be functional from those “other” things that could have granted them their independance! you don’t know what can help if you don’t try. no one is saying go put IV’s in your kid. trying diet changes isn’t life threating! testing for viral issues, bacteria issues, yeast issues, allergies, immune status ect are all informitive and can help you navigate what therapies and interventions can help. it never has to be therpy verese biomed. both help each other. go forward in help! if you want more info you can look up christel king on myspace and read my sons story. happy to answer quesions and help anyone that wants it! not a dr or a researcher! but a mom on a journey that has brought her kid far and helped others do the same!

192. 
     Chris
     September 24th, 2009
     04:44:57

     christel king:
     

     I tell you to ask questions on my sons story and you run! hard to argue someones real experience there to defend themself

     The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

     There is no reason to ask about your son, or to tell you about mine. They are just two data points among millions of children.

     Plus a parent’s recollection can be flawed because they are too close to the situation. Often they misinterpret temporal events, and even the cause and effect. Sometimes they mix up details and facts.

     A classic example of this is because of Wakefield’s paper of a dozen case reports. It was all about the MMR. But then was it the thimerosal in vaccines (which was given attention because it was removed for precautionary reasons). So parents on my listserv would warn about the “thimerosal in the MMR.”

     The problem is that there has never been thimerosal in the MMR (also no aluminum). Pointing that out prompted one parent who was chelating her child to try and get the moderators to remove me from the listserv. I challenged her to show me the evidence, and she backed down (and then later made the same correction to others, so at least some are willing to learn).

193. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     04:52:14

     “Thanks to your blabbing buddies I now know information about her that I couldn’t manage to get from any of GB’s posts”

     no one has said anything on here to come to give anymore info then defending the community as a whole. so would love to know what you are refering to

     “I’m sure she will thank you and your blabbing buddies for letting us all know exactly who she is. I now know far more detail than was gleaned from GB’s post using nothing but google.”

     no one told anything that wasn’t already laid out in the blog to find her. I pray those quoted tidbits logs are deleted so to keep this poor mom from all the attacks that have been placed here

194. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     05:33:36

     “so would love to know what you are refering to”

     You said she was findable through google. This implied that you had checked your claim to see if it was actually true.

     Doing exactly what you claim has been done turns up one result that is this page, and the second one down is people posting a reply to one of her original posts on yahoo. None of the other results come close. Had you checked your claim out, you would have known this.

     “no one told anything that wasn’t already laid out in the blog to find her. I pray those quoted tidbits logs are deleted so to keep this poor mom from all the attacks that have been placed here”

     False. Thanks to people replying to her original post, I’ve been able to find out her real first name. From that post, I found several of her online profiles. All in under 20 minutes using google and less than 3 searches.

     Nothing in GB’s post returned any succcesful google returns that could have led to finding all this out. The only lead has been through other people talking about this thread on the original threads over at yahoo. It appears that it’s only possible to find out who she is through her defenders clear and public identification of her by publically warning her by replying to her original posts.

     I bet she’ll be reallllly thankful when she works out who it was that really exposed her.

195. 
     Dedj
     September 24th, 2009
     05:42:18

     And yet another quick google search using a quote I didn’t use earlier, returns results which are either this thread, or a reply mentioning this thread on her original post.

     Who are these google demons that can alledgedly find her directly by googling a quote from this thread? Even a date limited search doesn’t directly identify her. All results are to this thread or to threads discussing this thread.

     I must be doing this wrong.

196. 
     David N. Brown
     September 24th, 2009
     05:42:58

     Christel,
     I only mention Offit’s income as an (extreme) example of AOA censoring dissent, in this case correction on very basic points of fact. My writings on the subject are mentioned elsewhere on LBRB.
     Filing complaints of child abuse is not something I like, and I would only recommend it in response to blatantly dangerous or debilitating “treatments”. Lupron is one I would so classify. Chelation, esp. DMPS, is another.

197. 
     jen
     September 24th, 2009
     07:27:52

     Kwombles – I find it quite comical how you wasted so much time talking about the definition of research and quietly slid past a rebuttal comment directed towards you by -pD. You have so much time to waste on insulting babble, please, I can’t wait to hear your comeback to the research info -pD posted.

     You know, I’ve heard about you…I’ve heard that from many…you get your jollies (as you say) off harassing others via the internet. But, I see your bark is far worse then your bite.

198. 
     James
     September 24th, 2009
     11:03:06

     Wow.

     All of the above (and my god, there is a lot of it) makes me extremely sad.

     Debate is great, but when it descends into mud slinging like this, no one wins. Hours and hours and hours of time must have been put into the above arguments, and surprise surprise, neither side has convinced the other that they are right.

     As someone with Asperger’s it’s difficult not to take the above personally. I feel like I’m being argued about, but excluded from the argument – like you are all my parents squabbling over what is best for me.

     No one seems to be asking me (and by this I mean folks with autism in general) what I think. That probably says a lot.

199. 
     Kwombles
     September 24th, 2009
     12:05:27

     Good for you, Jen. Really, good for you. Them jollies and all. So many inconsistencies in your posts makes me wonder what your intent really is. Also slides past answering anything directly. Distinctly feels lurkerish, you know? Not saying you are him, just that you deal with things like him. So I’m going to take your posts within that vein. After all, you said you had never been to this site before yesterday, and yet you know so much about me and what I supposedly do. You are less than honest.

     James,

     No one was excluded from the conversation. And your belief that no one is asking autistic individuals what they think about treatment options or anything else for that matter is not one that is borne out by the facts (you may not know where this is happening, but it doesn’t mean it is not happening). As far as stopping midstride from saying that this mother was troubled and what she had put her kid through was horrendous, and asking literally what an autistic individual would want or autistic individuals in general would want, perhaps we were fairly certain that no child, no adult, period, would want to be subjected to what that child has been. Plus, some of us have undoubtedly been aware that there were autistics on here responding.

     And, for the typical conversations between anti-vaxxers and those who disagree with vaccines as the cause of autism, this was really very little mud. Did you want the parents and individuals who are against subjecting helpless children to all manner of woo, and dangerous woo at that, to be convinced by the specious arguments presented by what appears to have been no more than two individuals (three if we count pD, and I would personally not place pD within that group of “two) and their less-than-stellar logic?

200. 
     jen
     September 24th, 2009
     13:34:33

     I tried to be nice on several occasions, waited & waited for someone here to present factual evidence or info, and was called names repeatedly…I am laughing that you are shocked I finally had had enough of such a conversation.

     And no, sorry to disappoint, not a lurker. As I stated…I heard about you. They are all talking about you on the groups you so love to hate.

     But, I’d be more then happy to keep checking for your rebuttal posts to the data and other factual information those who I agree with on this subject posted and will continue to wait for some factual information (anything, something) to be posted from anyone on your side of the fence.

     Till then…good day to you!

201. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 24th, 2009
     15:08:06

     jen,

     You are waiting for a response to what, exactly? Proof that every one of those treatments that Mary gave to Saul are useless?

     I’d suggest, really sincerely suggest, that you go and read the Cedillo testimony on the Omnibus case. You can find it by adding the triple w to the front of uscfc.uscourts.gov/omnibus-autism-proceeding

     Once you’ve done that, you might just change your mind.

202. 
     Stacey
     September 24th, 2009
     15:24:02

     See this is where the only using 5 or so posts to beat up Mary is falling short.

     The discussion on IVIG is wrong, she wasn’t trying to “cure” her son’s autism with IVIG. Her son was being treated with IVIG for PANDAS after being seen by an immunologist at UC Irvine…mainstream doctor,not a DAN. Full immuno work up done, through a real lab, not DDI or Great Plains. His immuno numbers were horrible, his myelin basic protein antibodies were 400% elevated, as were several other “anti-brain antibodies.” The doctor felt that IVIG was the one way to reset/correct his immune system so that his body would stop attacking his brain.

     PANDAS set in after a mainstream pediatrician misdiagnosed a strep infection with a rash as Fifths Disease and flat out refused to do a culture after the rapid strep was negative. Insisted it was Fifths Disease. AAP 101 says “confirm a negative rapid strep with a culture.” So mainstream medicine failed him right there. The strep went untreated, a month later he was sick again with rheumatic fever (strep related) and boom…......PANDAS symptoms set in.

     I have heard Mary say over and over that she would take her kid back, autism and all just the way he was before PANDAS, because PANDAS is worse than autism. No mainstream doctor seems to want to help with PANDAS because they don’t know what to do.

     You don’t have all the facts and that’s a problem.

203. 
     Stacey
     September 24th, 2009
     15:41:55

     Jen not every one was useless.

     IVIG - treating known autoimmune disorder. Mom has one too so it’s probably a genetic thing

     Zithromax -used to clear chronic strep (confirmed by mainstream ped and prescribe by such)

     Nystatin- to clear yeast infections caused by prophylactic antibiotic use. When child is exposed to strep, the reaction is horrible and he becomes self-injurous probably due to brain inflammation.

     Low Dose Naltrexone- helps keep the immune system in check. It is also recommended for people with RA and MS, autoimmune disorders just like Saul’s PANDAS.

     Enhansa/curcumin- anti-inflammatories. Works as well as steroids without the side effects. I use it myself for RA.

     Inositol- B vitamin that for some reason helps calm OCD, as proven by many mainstream studies. Sure beats putting the kid on an antidepressant or an anti-psychotic when the OCD makes functioning normal impossible.

     What’s wrong with probiotics? They keep a healthy GI tract and as any woman knows, the gyno usually tells you take them when you take antibiotics to keep away yeast issues.

     Vitamin C really, what is wrong with Vitamin C.

     Chiropractic- would these be an issue if he were typical. I go for adjustments. I had a friend growing up whose family went each week for their adjustments. What is so wrong with going to a chiropractor? I read in Mary’s blog that her son had his first formed bowel movement in over a year after his first adjustment.

     DMG- dimethylglycine used to be in multivitamins until they found out that a deficiency in it didn’t cause any health problems. So what’s wrong with putting some back?

     vitamin E- helps boost the immune system and is good for the skin
     Saul had chronic eczema from a year old until about 3 1/2. Maybe instead of applying toxic Elidel, the mother chose to give her kid a vitamin to help it instead.

     So not everything there is useless. Useless because you think it will not do anything for autism, but not useless for other medical issues the child has.

     I take almost as many supplements on that list. I have rheumatoid arthritis and live a completely normal life without pain, inflammation or joint damage. I also have not taken my methotrexate (chemo drug), plaquenil (DMARD that can cause retinyl toxicity) or my Enbrel (some other toxic crap and is hard on the liver) in over 2 years. My rheumatologist is on board and amazed that my blood work is always perfect, my joints look great and every year my xrays come up clean of any erosion.

204. 
     Stacey
     September 24th, 2009
     16:07:41

     Jen,not everything on that list is useless.

     IVIG- treating a known autoimmune disorder diagnosed (and prescribed) by a mainstream immunologist

     Zithromax- used to clear chronic strep, and prophylactically to keep strep away. Causes severe reaction in child who becomes self injurous while having strep.

     diflucan/nystatin- helps keep yeast overgrowth from prophylactic antibiotic use away. Gynos prescribe it for yeast all the time. Not all yeast is female issues.

     Enhansa- anti inflammatory properties. better than taking steroids if it causes less side effects

     DMG- dimethylglycine- used to be in general multivitamins until it was discovered that a deficiency of it didn’t cause a medical problem. What’s wrong with adding it back in?

     Epsom salt baths- have you never taken one? they are wonderful. So calming and relaxing. Great if your constipated too. Usually brings on a BM in 20 minutes or so.

     Essential Fatty Acids- what’s wrong with them? My doctor recommended I take it during my pregancy and my mom tells me all the time how they took a tsp every day as kids.

     Inositol- a vitamin that has been proven in studies to calm OCD. Why give antidepressants or anti-psychotics when OCD makes living any kind of normal life impossible if a vitamin can do the same thing?

     IM Bicillin – used when oral antibiotics couldn’t bring down chronic strep issues

     Low Dose Naltrexone- also an immune modulator. Kid has an autoimmune disorder. LDN is also recommended for people with RA and MS

     MB12 shots and nasal spray- people get B12 shots all the time

     Chiropractic- people do this all the time. I get adjustments.I know a family that goes with all three kids for their adjustments. I don’t see the issue in having your back adjusted. From Mary’s blog though I know that Saul had torticollis since birth and had therapy for it. I also read that he had his first formed bowel movement in over a year after his first adjustment.

     vitamin C- what is wrong with Vitamin C

     vitamin E- promotes a healthy immune system. Kid has immune issues. It’s also good for the skin. Saul had eczema from about a year old

     HBOT- kid has confirmed brain inflammation (from mainstream immunologist remember?) hbot helps with inflammation. Also good for autoimmune disorders and both mom and child have autoimmune disorders.

     So while you think everything on that list is useless in treating autism, it’s not useless, and has benefit treating other health issues the child has.

     oh and Flagyl is not a prescription antifungal, its an antibiotic..an antibacterial. Child with chronic strep issues using antibiotics….not a crime. If the mainstream doctor had treated the child appropriately the first time, and run a simple, common $20 test instead of misdiagnosing him, half this list may not have been needed

205. 
     Dawn
     September 24th, 2009
     16:17:15

     @Stacey: Given that PANDAS syndrome is not recognized (yet) by the mainstream medical world – and I am not saying it does not exist, simply that it is not recognized yet – and IVIG may be an appropriate treatment for this – how do you explain the multitude of other treatments “Mary” has given her son?

     As I have said before, treating a child’s illness is always appropriate, whether it is a food allergy, celiac disease, or IBS. Using unproven treatments to “cure” autism is not treating a child appropriately.

     Autism is not a disease. It is a developmental delay. Children with autism continue to grow and develop, and a percentage develop enough that they lose the diagnosis. Children with other version of developmental delay – Down’s Syndrome, for example – will develop to a certain stage and never get beyond that stage, no matter how hard they try or how much intervention you do with them.

     The people on the message boards point out very loudly that they are “curing” their children. Why do they not work together to do a valid research project on the treatment(s) and publish them? Surely there are DAN! doctors who could do this. They would get fame and money if they were able to prove that a certain treatment/series of treatments were better than the conventional medical treatments of therapy. All we are asking is for documented proof that a certain treatment works. The people on the message boards scream for proof that vaccines are safe; why can’t we scream back for proof that their treatments are safe and efficacious?

206. 
     jypsy
     September 24th, 2009
     16:32:27

     “Who are these google demons that can alledgedly find her directly by googling a quote from this thread? Even a date limited search doesn’t directly identify her. All results are to this thread or to threads discussing this thread.

     I must be doing this wrong.”

     Try Yahoo Search, it pops up there.

207. 
     Kwombles
     September 24th, 2009
     16:37:10

     Jen,

     It’d help if you directed your comments specifically. Who hates these groups you frequent? Who had you heard of before?

     When did you try to be nice? I must have missed that it in all the nonsense you and your sockpuppets flooded the thread with.

208. 
     dr treg
     September 24th, 2009
     16:47:50

     The opening post may tell us more about the author than the article itself.
     Severe autism is a disease and a cause of developmental regression.
     All of the treatments listed affect the immunogenic response and may be beneficial but without repeated double-blind controlled clinical trials the placebo effect cannot be excluded.
     However, if some of the treatments are harmless why not try them even just for the placebo effect?
     It could be that autism will eventually be treated with a combination of treatments affecting the immune system, rather similar to the synergistic combination treatment of childhood leukemia. Mary`s underlying philosophy may not be too wide of the mark.

209. 
     christel king
     September 24th, 2009
     16:52:12

     James
     my best friend is an aspie, in fact she had me put over her on her wish as her gaurdian to step in durring times of melt downs ect. SHE Is doing the above great list of things as well. of HER choice. she cried in joy realizing there were treatments out there for her anxiety issues, medical treatments like IVIG to treat her ever crashing immune system, yeast treatments for her cronic yeast infections that not only messed with her boby but her mind and head. they were answers to prayers! she had PANDAS for years with out realizing it and DAN was her ability to finaly put names and defining medical tests to her “symptoms of autism” and she is so much better of for it. she found out her long list of allergies and removed them and functioned with out constant belly bloating, pain, stool issues, absorption issues, malnutrition, cronic sinus issues and flares ect. not every person is going to be the same, an aspie view also has a higher functioning level of reason from a low functioning autistic child. we as parents as this is the case being presented many times have to make choices as a parent on what is best for our kid. needles aren’t pleasent but in a case with a kid with diabietes its important to have to treat a child. or a kid with cancer loosing hair can be tramatic but the result of not treating can be worse! you haven’t been ignored! but again you choosing NOT to doing biomed is your choice, my aspie friend hers. you are adults. my aspie friend cries over her parents lack of treating and how it could have made her life easier now as an adult and she would function better from it. so either way both may feel! but we are talking about mom and child here. DAN has children come up and talk about there experineces when recovered. how they feel about it, and all they have been through, never in any of them do you hear regreat. they are whitty and happy they have been helped. there is a great vidoe called autism yesterday ou there with children talking about going through treatment as well and how it helps!

210. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 24th, 2009
     18:22:09

     In response to Stacey @ September 24th, 2009
     15:24:02

     Here’s a quote from a technical abstract describing PANDAS

     “Background: The current diagnostic criteria for pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with group A streptococcal infection (PANDAS) are pediatric onset, neuropsychiatric disorder (obsessive-compulsive disorder [OCD]) and/or tic disorder; abrupt onset and/or episodic course of symptoms; association with group A ?-hemolytic streptococcal (GABHS) infection; and association with neurological abnormalities (motoric hyperactivity or adventitious movements, including choreiform movements or tics). . . .In children treated with antibiotics effective in eradicating GABHS infection at the sentinel episode, OCD symptoms promptly disappeared. Follow-up throat cultures negative for GABHS were obtained prospectively after the first PANDAS episode. Recurrence of OCD symptoms was seen in 6 patients; each recurrence was associated with evidence of acute GABHS infection and responded to antibiotic therapy, supporting the premise that these patients were not GABHS carriers. The OCD behaviors exhibited included hand washing and preoccupation with germs, but daytime urinary urgency and frequency without dysuria, fever, or incontinence were the most notable symptoms in our series (58% of patients).”

     Of course I don’t know Mary, and whether I can rely on her recollections. I can however rely on her words posted to various groups. Yes, in the fall of 2007 she does post about the Fifth’s disease, and how he had become very clingy and whiny. She also saw a decrease in spontaneous expressive
     language, asking repetitive questions, and repeating back questions instead of answering them. I guess these are what she considers the symptoms of PANDAS.

     But here’s something she posted in Feb 2004 (more than 2 years previously).

     “He’s slipping back and I don’t know why. His eye contact has been off for about a week. He has started stimming on pictures again, he has begun licking things. Here’s what has me most puzzled and should I be concerned. Is this a normal thing kids do when they start to talk or is he stimming on hearing his own voice?? For example, he used to see the light and point and say light and that was that, he’d move on to something else. Now he will point at the light, stare at it and say the word 10- 15 times before he stops. When we are in the car he will say “sign” from the moment we see a stop sign until we pass it. If he sees a car commercial guess what?? Car , car, car 10 or so times. He walks around playing and just repeating “mommy, daddy, mommy, daddy” Occasionally its “mommy daddy baby” over and over. When he used to just baby babble the sounds were all different. I almost wish he’d go back to just babbling when he plays because this is really bothering me. Is this stimming or do kids just do this because now they have words to say other than just babble??”

     And in summer 2006

     “My son is really not all that different than he was this time last year. I thought he was doing great until I watched video from last summer and realized he really isn’t. Sure, he’s talking much more, but his speech is mostly echolalia, scripting and the constant repetitive asking of the same nonsense questions without even waiting for or caring if there is an answer. He still can’t hold a conversation, doesn’t write, won’t even really hold any writing implement, he has absolutely no social skills whatsoever. People do not exist to him. He has no fears, runs off a the drop of a dime, and is getting aggressive (pinching and hitting me only, no one else).”

     I don’t know about you, but it sounds to me like Saul always had these PANDAS-type symptoms.

211. 
     Stacey
     September 24th, 2009
     18:41:32

     Okay so now look at the summer 2006 post. Saul may still have many issues but I can tell you he writes now, words, sentances, drawers, colors, he’s social, other people exist because he acts out when he doesn’t get attention and seeks out people, he has normal fears, he no longer runs off. Sounds like he’s doing better in a lot of ways.

     There are different articles with different symptoms of PANDAS, tics are a part and Saul has tics, motor and vocal, and choreiform movements.

     You can post all the quotes you want. Even if you post all 3500 of her posts, you still won’t be giving the whole picture. Parents can post out of desperation. When tired, desparate and not thinking clearly they may make things sound worse than they are,because they feel worse.

     I know that the post,the one that starts this, was made when Mary had had a bad few days with her son, there were marital issues and something else going on. All seemed worse. After a few failed attempts to get a friend by phone (myself included)she needed to vent, someone to “talk” to even if it meant typing out how she was feeling. Looking for someone to understand. The poor woman will probably never seek out help or a shoulder to lean on again.

212. 
     Stacey
     September 24th, 2009
     20:39:09

     I have to wonder what would have happened if Christy Nolan’s mother wasn’t willing to try a newly discovered drug that was originally developed for a condition other than his own.

     what a brilliant mind the world would have missed out on.

     Now you have something else to google and bitch about

213. 
     Khalil
     September 25th, 2009
     00:53:06

     I have a daughter who is brilliant. She spoke 3 languages by the age of 2.5. She knew most of the animals at the Zoo (dwikers, okapis, You get the Idea) . She was a normal child in many ways.

     She had never received any immunizations except the one the give at birth (which they weren’t supposed to give her).

     Insurance wouldn’t let her on any plan except the one she was on at birth, because she had not received immunizations. Insurance costs were over $1200 a month and rising.

     One MMR and One DPT only- Now at age six she can only speak one language. Within 3 days of the shots, she couldn’t recognize what we were saying unless it was in English.

     She never had a cough or got sick for 2.5 years. 3 days after the shots she develops a cough and then reactive air way disease. she got sick constantly for 2.5 years.

     Her behavior went off the chart after she recovered from the immunization shots initial effects. Some tried to label her as asperger’s. Some ADD or ADHD.

     Natural treatments are helping dramatically. Things like what Better Lamont does, You can see a short video on youtube.

     Herbs and special supplements are dramatically bring my daughter back. At age six and much work we may get the languages back.

     I would like to hear from others who avoided immunizations for at least 2 years or more. I’d like to hear their stories.

     Immunizations ruin more lives than they help…...

     Any one who says differently is under the effect of immunizations and not living with a child damaged by their effects.

     Mothers know when their children’s behavior changes. Doctors to brain washed to think only one way.

214. 
     Chris
     September 25th, 2009
     02:10:35

     The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

     Especially since in the USA the DTP has not been given for several years. A child who is presently six years old would have received the DTaP, and it would not have any thimerosal.

     Also, what insurance company has punitive measures for lack of vaccination? Please tell us so we can avoid that company!

     I would also like to repeat this question: What are the relative risks between the MMR vaccine versus getting measles, mumps and rubella? Please provide documentation with real science. Thank you.

215. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     03:14:34

     dawn
     ARI is doing exactly what you are talking about with private funding from families just as our own. (and fund raising) problem is that most of us parents are broke treating our kids. the other reason that much of what you are asking about to be done hasn’t been done is because no one profits from it! meds are testing because they can pateint it and make loads of it! vitamine companies not the same. there are studies on b6 and mag vereses ritalin where the suppliments show out better. there are studies on taking away I think it was milk from jails and no issues for the day. things like prozac are made from naturals like st johns wort and then they throw on a bunch of fillers and jack up the price! THEY know naturals work to. they take l-carnitine and add in color and sweetner and call it levo-carnintine and market it at a jacked up price to insurence companies, they market b12 shots ect. and they are used in hospitals, HBOT Is used for brain injury, IVIG for immune issues, chelating adgents for heavey metal poisening

     you have missed the belief of the biomed heads. autism is a discription of a symptoms to give a label. those symptoms are not that of autism but disease, damage, oxidative stress load being to high, allergies reactions causing stress, yeast issues, out of wack immune system ect. causing symptoms that when all smacked together give this LOOK we call autism. as you treat the underlying medical issues (which by the way are different combos for each kid which is why autism looks different for each kid) you loose some of the symptoms, by way lessing those LOOKS of autism. so it’s a belief on what is autism at the basic level. so you are never curing autism, you are working on curing the disease or ocidative stress source that is resulting in the behavioral issues or look of autism

     PANDAS is recognised by NIMH and they have a section on it.

216. 
     passionlessDrone
     September 25th, 2009
     03:26:00

     Hi Dawn –

     Stacey: Given that PANDAS syndrome is not recognized (yet) by the mainstream medical world – and I am not saying it does not exist, simply that it is not recognized yet – and IVIG may be an appropriate treatment for this – how do you explain the multitude of other treatments “Mary” has given her son?

     Slightly OT, but you do seem to have an open mind; something which I’ve come to appreciate.

     You might find this article interesting; wherein researchers were able to generate repetitive behaviors by infecting some animals with strep, observing repetitive behaviors, siphoning off the resultant antibodies, and injecting the antibodies into different animals. In fact, the authors mention that this is supplemental evidence towards what has been observed; improvements in children with PANDAS following IVIG treatment.

     http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....143538.htm

     – pD

217. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     03:34:27

     David you must be uneducated on chelation then! it’s used all the time for people who are metal posiened! not at all abuse. lupron a med used for hormon issues. again used as needed. people don’t just go to the store and say I think I’m going to try this or that. they have testing showing a NEED for these things to treat medical issues.

218. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     03:36:26

     how does attacking AoA play in here??? no one here is representing them! we are here as parents representing our kids, and other mothers and kids choosing to help there kids where no other help has been offered or where that help has hurt there kids. medical oaths broken on do no harm!

219. 
     Chris
     September 25th, 2009
     08:28:32

     Christel King:
     

     David you must be uneducated on chelation then! it’s used all the time for people who are metal posiened! not at all abuse.

     How are they shown to have heavy metal poisoning? What metals? Aluminum is not a heavy metal (at least on this planet). Also the MMR has never contained neither thimerosal nor aluminum. Also, no pediatric vaccine after the year 2002… and even before is was in too small a dose to be an issue.

     You continue:
     

     lupron a med used for hormon issues.

     Again, who decides? Did you know there is a group of adults on the internet who feel they have been harmed by this drug? What makes Lupron safer than the DTaP, MMR, or the Hib vaccines (which have all been tested)?

     Please provide the scientific documentation showing that Lupron is safe and required for autistic children (one caveat, nothing authored by either Geier).

     And as I asked before: What are the relative risks between the MMR vaccine versus getting measles, mumps and rubella? Please provide documentation with real science. Thank you.

220. 
     David N. Brown
     September 25th, 2009
     09:26:37

     Christel,
     I have a bachelor’s degree in geology, and picked up plenty of chemistry and biology. In my opinion, the only connection likely to exist between heavy metal pollution and autism is that autistics in more polluted environments will suffer more stress (including health problems). Until recently, I took a relatively benign view of chelation, as something that could prevent accumulation of metals. I changed my mind when I found a study showing that, when administered to animals without serious pre-existing levels of heavy metals, chelators can produce the same long-term symptoms as actual heavy metal poisoning. If you really want to know what I have to say about all this, go to my site.

221. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     13:17:38

     david I have no interest in your blog but thanks for posting it. you miss the point with chelation, parents aren’t just going and doing it with out cause. have you seen the stats on it helping, verses causeing regression, verses nothing???? it has the highest success rate of all treatments for gains for autism! which says something. parents are doing metals testing PRIOR to doing it. dr’s would be legally bound to be responcible if something went wrong and NOT doing that and being that most chelators are scripts they have to have record for use cause. insurences don’t cover with out that either. which believe it or not many of these kids are having it covered that way.

222. 
     Kwombles
     September 25th, 2009
     13:31:34

     “medical oaths broken on do no harm!” So says Christel. And yet she defends the doctors who give lupron, a chemical castration drgu, and who give chelation where no heavy metal toxicity exists. She defends all those other woo treatments with real potential to harm the child, both physically and psychologically. Because these particular doctors since they are trying to help the children, these are good doctors and the meds they peddle are good meds. Magically, the vaccines and those doctors who give them are bad doctors. But these doctors who help are good doctors.

     No, the good doctor is the one who tells a parent what evidenced based medicine has to say based on sound science. The good doctor says no to nicotine patches. To IVIG. To HBOT. To lupron. Who says there is no evidence (and there is not) to suggest that any of these helps autistic children.

     The more you try to defend these actions, the less reasonable the actions appear. I have no doubt these parents love their children. Love doesn’t mean they make sound decisions regarding the care of the child. And if you think that going down every single woo trail will win you the prize of loving your child more than parents who rely on sound science and hard one-on-one intervention, you’re wrong. It will certainly win you the martyr prize and probably some therapy for your child when they are older.

223. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     13:36:36

     david aluminium is a metal that causes mental issues as well. it’s being looked at and has been for a while in alzheimers which in the biomed group is often running in families as seen as a suseptable issue geneticly that goes hand in hand. infact if you look at the regression with alzhiemers and autism they are SOOO similiar, espeically to thoser with regressive autism and in our community is seen as the same thing. just late onset autism from a build up of metals and a shutting down body loosing it’s ability to detox them.

     you will need to do way more research I am sorry to say as well on vaccinations. kids get way more vaccinations then just the MMR these days, no one has claimed that MMR has metals in it. you are talking to an educated mom here. MMR is a live virus and has no perservitives I am aware of that. but many of the others do. my son was born in 2001. he receieved over 4 shots with mercury in them. you can acutally look up your childs records online with lot numbers and companies and find out exactly how much was in them. mercury has never been mandated to take out. still to this day isn’t. it was a RECOMMENDATION but never required. today vacciantions STILL have mercury in them. tetnus shot, the flu shot to name a few. those that were made also still sat on the shelves to be used and were not thrown out even when the recommendation was given as money would be out the door for dr’s. there was no recall or swap out program as would have been nice. my son in 2003 still got vaccinations with merucry in them, shortly there after the flu shots were pushed like crazy for kids. when mercury was taken out volenterily by a few places they were THEN replaced with aluminium missing the whole point of parents like us asking for a change.

     as for testing there are a few times that dr’s do. you can not do blood testing as blood testing only shows a small gap window of exposure. so hair testing shows long term exposure and what metals also does to minieral levels as well (as they work on effecting each other) another accepted measure of testing and used more often now is porphyrins (likly spelled this wrong NOT in my giftings cluster) testing. which is a urine based test. this is what most DANs have been urged to use.

     another note is that the dose of merucury in vaccinations that are receieved are not based on weight which is part of how poisening happens and again many of the kids with issues have issues with glutathione problems which is what allows the body to detox. it’s pretty standard now to have kids take tylonal before shots to manage issues after the fact, which shuts down the bodies ability to produce glutathione. this in combo with preset allergies kids are not aware of before hand (something that could be done to perhaps prevent reactions – would be to test for these things before hand or even take out the high allergens in vaccinations) in combo with sick kids already and live viruses and the combo of them all lead to distruction in our kids. i know my son for example had issues with his 6 month shots and his health was already in a spiral. I brought it up as a concern and I was not only brushed off but was ragged on about over reactive and that there was no concern with giving his shots with him being ill. he had already had RSV at that point for 6 months. so his immune system was already shot, then add in tylonal and live virus and allergies it was a recipe for disaster. all info I would have loved to have had before. first time mom and all…..looking at inserts later it actually SAID on the lable NOT to give to sick kids. I was so scared about DOING those shots in my gut I actually refused to sign off on that set. my husband did, I stood outside the room crying. not saying this is every families story but I can see where the suseptability was there for my kid.

224. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     14:19:30

     Kwombles
     you don’t read well. these dr’s ARE testing and treating real medical issues. that is the point. lupron is used in more then casteration and that is NOT what it’s used for in kids you are refering to. they are not on this long term either, they are on it to stop puberty at age 4 or whatever age they are peeking at, which by the way carries great risk to be heading into pubery at that age. cancer risk increases greatly! agression issues as they are not able to manage the hormon surges they have going on in their bodies ect. most kids have issues as teens going through that, now throw in kids who have lang issues, expressive issues, and sensory issues that were never meant to go through this at a young age. kids are developing pubic hair at a young age, breast ect and are tested for testosteron levels, ect. and being found ot be to high thus the treatment, and again taken off at the appropriate age to be going through those changes
     that is what the drug was created for

225. 
     Kwombles
     September 25th, 2009
     14:45:05

     Christel,

     None of what you are babbling about has anything to do with autism.

226. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     15:01:58

     Kwombles
     YEAH you finally “GET” it. your right it doesn’t. us parents aren’t treating autism, we are treating the underlying issues that are giving our kids these symptoms that have been group into what we currently call autism! we treat the medical issues and those things are better and those things make those symptoms that are appearing and LOOK like autism disappear, we don’t believe autism is a mental or develpemental issue but rather a body gone haywire with medical issues…...and people label that autism…..

     just like dr’s call colic- colic. when it’s a junk title of we don’t know what this is. can be allergies, pain from something else, intollerences, yeast issues, bactieria issues ect…..but it’s never just colic. just like fibro is fibro, it’s we don’t know why you have these symptoms so we will just label it…..auto immune haywire bodies!

227. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     15:59:00

     chris the difference in it is that lupron is not given to everyone! if everyone was given all of “xyz” there is always going to be a group that reacts negitively! that is exactly my groups stance. vaccinations have that sub group of people who are having negitive reactions and end up triggering and switching on a spiral down we label as autism. messing with multisystem damage. so you are right, lupron isn’t for everyone, and not everyone doing biomedical is doing lupron, infact the numbers are very low, and those that are have had hormon testing to show a need for it. again each child is different, each childs medical crash need different. therefore each childs need to “fix” what is not working different, dependend on their “symptoms” that put them on specturm to begin with.

228. 
     jen
     September 25th, 2009
     16:29:39

     Guest Blogger, yesterday you asked what I disagree with and what evidence I’m looking for to back up claims. There are several debates going on here. But here is what I disagree with…

     I disagree with you, from a moral standpoint, copying and pasting a mother’s words and then, using that 1, out of many posts by this mother, as an example to say that biomed treatment as a whole is harmful to children or say this child is in a harmful situation because of it. I, personally feel, it would be more moral of you, if you feel the need to lurk on groups and discuss your findings, not to use a mother’s words, or any members words for that matter, and just discuss your own scientific data you collected to back your claim. If you feel like this is a topic of interest and you’d further like to investigate, imo, its would be more ethical of you to make your self known on each group stating…”hey, fyi-by the way, I’ll be reading all your posts and then using your words against you.”

     I do not agree with you that these groups “brainwash” people. I will say that, with every group, there are different personalities and sometimes some are more overbearing with their personality and information then the next. Everyone is different…I don’t live with any of these people, I don’t know what goes on at their home…I can not make an assumption and have no proof if any one person in any of the groups is actually brainwashed or not. But I don’t feel their goal is to brainwash or force parents into doing something they don’t feel comfortable with, these people have more to do with their time. Each group has a ultimate goal, that’s why they were created, to be a resource for their members. That resource is made up of primarily parents who post their frustrations, what worked, what didn’t work, what new products, products they didn’t like, other resources to check out, etc…you get the picture. Again, their ultimate goal is to help in the way they can by sharing their personal experiences and info and it is then up to each individual member of the group to decide if they want to take the info provided and further investigate. Someone mentioned, not sure if its you, that when some members of the group don’t agree with the groups subject matter there is a sort of attack. That may be true but you have to thoroughly understand the dynamics of groups and understand each group has a common “cause” and when people question the “cause” it may irritate because people aren’t forcing any one person to belong to the group…if someone disagrees frustration ensues because the question is why are you here?

     I also disagree that taking just a few of “Mary’s” posts and using as an example to say this one part makes for the whole is a poor way to state your case. I have a feeling you are a man, only because women understand how we communicate and if you were a woman you might not be using “Mary’s” posts. Woman are much more comfortable with speaking their mind. They are much more comfortable with expressing deep feelings with others, even others they don’t know. The suicide rate (successful suicides) is much higher with men then women. A theory, can’t remember if the theory has been proven but, is because society doesn’t frown upon women for being emotional and showing weak moments but the same is opposite for men. My point is, “Mary” is a mom, “Mary” is a woman, “Mary” has no problem with venting and expressing her issues. Many of my posts when I was just starting out with the gfcf diet were hysterical. I sounded like a basket case but over the years I’ve learned and grown by posting and expressing my feelings.

     I also don’t agree with you that those vitamins, supplements, medicines, etc you list are unsafe in the manner they are used. Yes, as someone pointed out, anything in excess is a bad thing whether it be a vitamin or Vikadin (sp?). I always hear Doctors say, when speaking in regards to meds, they feel the pros outweigh the cons and that is the basic justification for using the drug. The same holds true with parents who are trying to recover their child from Autism. The, very slow use, of primarily vitamins, to excrete mercury or lesson the load far outweighs the possible cons. Doctors prescribe medicines like they are handing candy out knowing full-well that their are side effects and have no problem doing so. I’m very surprised anyone has a problem with a parent giving their child vitamins.

     You also say “well, where is the proof?” the administering of vitamins, supplements, and meds is effective in helping a child with their issues. I don’t know if there is documents or studies. But does there really need to be??? You seriously can’t take the word of a TON of parents as proof???

     I do agree with you, their is a risk with this. I will say, I’ve been on these groups when needing help with supplements my son’s doctor wanted him on and did think wow this can be risky and a lot is involved. I do feel parents should consult with a doc who is in the know but do know of parents who have been able to do without the doc. When we saw the MD/DAN! he prescribed a ton of stuff for my son. I researched every supplement he suggested, like GABA for instance, and to me I felt their was too much risk with the GABA and my son was too young so I chose to disregard the docs recommendation. Many of the other supplements prescribed like Vit C, Vit D, etc are relatively safe to try so I did but they made my son worse. When I asked the docs why they said because they were antioxidants and it will get worse before it gets better. But I stopped. Of course I question, would his food allergies and behavior be better had I continued. But for me and my family I felt it was all too risky to try at his age and did notice the back-and-forth parents have on those groups with made me think this was gonna be a long battle. BUT my child does not have Autism. So, for me, it was not worth the risk. BUT if my child did have Autism and I saw it helped for other parents I may re-think those risks. Again, there are risks with everything. If you put your child in a car there is a risk your child could seriously injured in a car accident but yet millions upon millions of us put our child in the car everyday and travel knowing full well there is some sort of risk. So, are they bad parents??? I’m know there is some risk with this type of treatment but there are a TON of parents who did this, who had issues, who overcame the issues, who feel they are willing to take the risks because in the end their child will have a better quality of life. And just because there is no “data” put out for the masses it can’t be completely discounted.

     I can’t disagree or agree with the IV or the chamber. I don’t know much about those types.

     And as far as vaccines. Yes, it is true, I am a anti-vaxer. Why? Because after educating myself I see the risks associated with vaccines are too great and I’m no longer willing to take that chance. Vaccines are not the answer, our bodies natural immune is much more safer of an option. Just like you point out chealtion and diet is not a cure well neither is a vaccine. And as far as the “scientific data” put out for vaccines…I’d like a non-pharma group or a non-governmental group to study the vaccines. A party that has no interest financially or anything else to gain. You talk about corruption among those who give hope to Autistic parents but you see no corruption with pharma companies??????????????????? That really is mind-boggling.

     And as far as vaccines, chemicals, food, and the overall general way developed societies live, those who don’t already, need to take a step back and look at the big picture. They need to understand living like this will ultimately be the killer of our species. Allowing our children to get diseases such as chic pox and measles strengthen our immune systems in the long run and is a good thing, not to be frowned upon. No one claims we will never get sick or that no child will ever die from getting the measles but, again, the big picture needs to be seen. Ever here someone say…”your too smart for your own good”. I think that may be true with those who are pro-vax. You seem like a very intelligent person Guest Blogger but I think you need to think outside of the box and be open to other information. There is an interesting article in regards to those who are pro-vax…”why are smart people so dumb?”

229. 
     jen
     September 25th, 2009
     16:56:55

     Christal that is an awesome point and one I didn’t think to make. What is the definition of Autism? Parents who treat their Autistic child obviously have a different definition of Autism then the next guy who chooses to believe it is a fixed or inherent issue.

     It is also really good of you to use colic as an example of a junk term. These junk terms that the mainstream medical community use when they don’t have a deep understanding as to the why’s and how’s. Kinda like the below article I saw yesterday, 4 babies, who all live very close to one another, who mysteriously died of SIDS. SIDS…junk term for baby who died from a vaccine. In this case, I’m sure these babies had gotten injected with a bad batch and died. But will a study be conducted to prove? Maybe, if so will everyone or even the parents of the dead babies know if it proves to be true that it was the vaccines? Probably not. Why? Because there would too much to loose by both the government and the pharm co. Its bad for their business to disclose the truth and nothing but.
     http://www.nj.com/news/index.s.....h_die.html

230. 
     jen
     September 25th, 2009
     17:17:23

     To Chris, a few times you asked about the risks and benefits for the measles vs the vaccine for the measles. Here is a site that may be able to help you.

     http://novaccine.com/
     http://www.novaccine.com/glossary.asp

     This link will direct you to each manufac for the measels vaccine…
     http://www.novaccine.com/speci.....sp?v_id=21
     Some of those provide the actual pkg insert for your viewing pleasure. Such as this…http://www.novaccine.com/pdffiles/mmvax_package_insert.pdf

     As far as how dangerous is it to get the measles…maybe you can find a medical dictionary, one that was published before the vaccine was created. Or try this link…http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/02/measles-the-grim-reality/

     Not sure if I’ve been of help on this for you?? Maybe???

231. 
     Chris
     September 25th, 2009
     18:30:33

     Jen, I asked for real scientific evidence. Give me the papers, not a list of websites (oh, yeah… I am sure that a site called “novaccine” is not biased at all!). Something equivalent to these (which show a rate of bad outcome of one out of a thousand for both mumps and measles, and even worse for pregnant women who get rubella):

     J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
     Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.
     Gindler J, Tinker S, Markowitz L, Atkinson W, Dales L, Papania MJ.

     Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Sep 4.
     MEASLES OUTBREAK IN GERMANY: CLINICAL PRESENTATION AND OUTCOME OF CHILDREN HOSPITALIZED FOR MEASLES IN 2006.
     Arenz S, Fischer R, Wildner M.

     Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Mar;28(3):173-5.
     An office-based prospective study of deafness in mumps.
     Hashimoto H, Fujioka M, Kinumaki H; Kinki Ambulatory Pediatrics Study Group.

     Auris Nasus Larynx. 2005 Jun;32(2):125-8. Epub 2005 Apr 7.
     Epidemiological study of mumps deafness in Japan.
     Kawashima Y, Ihara K, Nakamura M, Nakashima T, Fukuda S, Kitamura K.

     Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Sep;28(9):795-800.
     Rubella Outbreak in the Netherlands, 2004-2005: High Burden of Congenital Infection and Spread to Canada.
     Hahné S, Macey J, van Binnendijk R, Kohl R, Dolman S, van der Veen Y, Tipples G, Ruijs H, Mazzulli T, Timen A, van Loon A, de Melker H.

     Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.
     Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
     Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.

     Now please tell me what the relative risk is from the MMR vaccine versus getting measles, mumps and rubella. You will note from some of the above papers that since Wakefield published his flawed set of twelve case studies in 1998, vaccination with MMR has declined and the diseases themselves have increased.

232. 
     Chris
     September 25th, 2009
     18:52:14

     Also, jen, the insidevaccines article is an opinion piece, not a scientific paper. Actually measles was a problem in the 1950s, killing between 300 to 600 people per year (a rate of about 1 death out of 1000 cases, see J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77, which is about the most recent large outbreak where the rate was 1 in 500), and causing many more to become permanently disabled (see Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.).

     If the MMR vaccine is removed from the schedule, those numbers will return (like what happened in Japan, which still does not vaccinate for mumps, so more accurate data on deafness caused by mumps shows it to be one in a thousand).

     Is that acceptable to you?

233. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     18:53:54

     chris if you keep up on the news you would know that wakefield’s stuff wasn’t flawed and credability has been restored in that situation and the man who published the mess lost his job over the whole thing.

234. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     18:58:05

     chris
     so let me get this, others want us to go to THEIR sites to read THEIR stuff but you won’t read ours….hum I can see we are all going no where fast.

235. 
     Sullivan
     September 25th, 2009
     19:08:03

     Chris,

     One of the links provided by jen was to insidevaccines—which is really a gem of anti-vaccine illogic.

     You gotta love the chuztpah of anyone who, faced with the obvious fact that the measles vaccine has saved millions of lives in the US, can say this:

     The end result of many years of vaccination has been to transform a mild childhood disease that killed one person out of 6,500 into a disease that is almost as deadly as it is in the developing world, where people struggle with hunger and sanitation problems.

     They go with the old addage, if you are going to lie, lie big.

236. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     19:19:50

     see the funny part is you wanna talk about measels and mumps and such like
     they are killers. back then they didn’t have what they have now to fight it
     med wise. were not in the black ages anymore, medicine has advanced alot
     over the years….mumps no big deal. know people who have had it, and you
     wanna know what dr’s said while they had it. ok take them home, they’ll be
     fine. far cry from OH NO YOUR GONNA DIE OR GO DEAF! like the media wants
     you to think is going to happen if you are exposed. and hate to break it
     but vaccinations didn’t wipe out those getting those diseases, massive
     amounts of people GETTING those diseases and building immunity had TONS to
     do with it. if vaccines are the cure all tell me why when there IS an out
     break do those vaccinated out number those that are unvaccinated that catch
     it! blows your therory!

237. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     19:30:37

     ok so I have to laugh reading this, so with your figures you are throwing
     out that would be a 1:1000 in deaths for those exposed, meaning just 300-600
     deaths a year. I can tell you the stats for deaths from vaccinations is at
     least that high as well. my sons lot numbers there were 7 deaths from just
     that one BATCH. and that was just for ONE Of his close to what 30
     recommended vaccinations. and there was certainly more then one batch of
     that type vaccination made and given in a years time. which with the rate
     of those vaccinated be much higher death rates then 300-600 cases! autism
     at 1:100 in some of the latest figures coming out from data results collect
     in 2007 being compiled…...I think I will take the first! autism is the
     death of your dreams for your child, and their future. it’s is a HUGE toll
     on all family members involved on a personal, mental, emotional, economic,
     phycological, spiritual, physical ect level. the grieving of the dx with no
     hope is death. higher functioning children perhaps not as much as the hopes
     for a future may lay there but not all kids on spectrum are high
     functioning.

     see this is some of the data families of MINE have been asking for. talk
     about show me the data. VARS was collected for a reason, those stats SHOULD
     be out there, on the death risk, seizer risk ect involved. so I ask you
     vaccination companies where is THAT science data

238. 
     jen
     September 25th, 2009
     19:40:29

     Chris, I don’t have the time at this moment to look thru all the articles you posted…maybe providing me links to them would be helpful but I did look at the last one you posted…that verbiage from the abstract in regards to measles…

     “Measles

     As part of the National Immunization Program, the CDC posts the number of reported cases of measles from 1950 through 1998.37 However, widespread underreporting was likely before 1963, when nearly every child in the United States had contracted measles. Therefore, we assumed that every child in the birth cohorts of 1950 and 1960 had measles before age 10 years38; for 1970 through 1998, we used the CDC reports of the incidence of measles.

     Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis.36, 39 Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR.39 We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR.

     Several effective vaccines against measles were licensed in 1963, and by 1968, the Moraten strain emerged as the live-attenuated vaccine of choice.12, 40 The vaccines were widely available almost immediately after licensing in 1963, and reported cases of measles dropped 10-fold within 5 years.12 Measles continued its downward trend when the CDC organized a nationwide measles eradication campaign from 1967 to 1969.40 A resurgence of measles in the 1990s was associated with decreased vaccination rates in children younger than 2 years and with primary vaccine failure leading to waning immunity in adolescents.39”

     *There are words like ASSUME, LIKELY, and USED CDC REPORTS. I have a few questions…where is the proof that the reason(s) for the downward trend of the contraction of Measles is directly linked with vaccines? The other question is where is the proof the resurgence of measles in the 90’s was associated with decreased vaccination rates? It does direct (39) the reader to the “proof” however, I’m not quite sure how to access that article…any way you can provide that for me so that I can read for myself? Long SS, ed, Pickering LK, ed, Prober CG, ed. Principles and Practice of Pediatric Infectious Diseases. 2nd ed. New York, NY: Churchill Livingstone; 2003.

     Another question is when this vaccine emerged does anyone have data on an illness or developmental issue(s) that rose during the year this vaccine was introduced? For example, I’ve read in 1996 when the Hep B vaccine was introduced behavioral and neurological disorders rose 300%.

     I also wanted to add to my recent post directed to Guest Blogger in regards to pro or anti vax…Regardless of what you feel is the best for your children wouldn’t we all agree being educated on the subject is extremely important?? Don’t you think the package insert, list of ingredients, risks and benefits, etc should be easily accessible? I was told all doctors were to provide that info and more prior to each jab however, that has never been the case in our situation. It’s sad this issue is one sided. No one here can deny there are risks associated with each vaccine but I think we would all agree we should be made aware, clearly aware, of those risks so that we can make an educated choice on what goes into our child’s body. I know someone here said to me that the list of ingredients wasn’t going to scare them and that is fine with me…if you KNOW what is in each vaccine and have been told the truth and no one is hiding any risks then that is your educated choice. The big problem with vaccines and the frustration parents have is the truth is not being told. They are hiding things like Autism & ADHD by saying “no studies show there is a link”. WHO are the people conducting the studies??? The ones making the money????? And the ones who are researching for themselves with nothing to gain are getting shot down and discounted. Doctors are telling their patients vaccines are safe because they are going off of studies that were conducted by pharma co’s (and maybe because there is no liability for doctors should a child be vaccine injured). But until I read my doctors personal studies done I have a hard time believing the garbage set forth. I also think it is silly & naive to have so much faith on science and have none on the human body.

239. 
     Sullivan
     September 25th, 2009
     19:42:06

     “autism is the death of your dreams for your child,”

     Don’t speak for me. Don’t speak for my child. Ever.

     I dream. My child dreams. Right now I am dreaming of a world where the biggest obstacle to my child’s dignity doesn’t come in the form of autism parents.

240. 
     Sullivan
     September 25th, 2009
     20:12:49

     cristel king:

     autism is the death of your dreams for your child, and their future. it’s is a HUGE toll on all family members involved on a personal, mental, emotional, economic, phycological, spiritual, physical ect level. the grieving of the dx with no hope is death.

     I see you echoing the sentiments of the “I am autism” video. You discuss the “toll” autism has had on you.

     I don’t have the answers. But I am prompted to say this:

     Putting my child first was possibly the biggest step in my journey. That one change helped me more than I can say.

     I wish you well in your journey.

241. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     20:46:04

     Sullivan
     i said it effects and affects ALL family members. including those WITH autism. and when you have a family it can’t be all about one child either, your non autistic children are important to. you can throw them out just because they AREN”T autistic. there has to be a health balence. in this we have seen our non ASD child come to love and support her brother instead of hate and dispise his dx. I can totally see her getting involved in the field to work with special needs kids down the road. our attitudes can be everything on how our kids special needs play into ALL the roles of all the family memberes involved. after all it’s their future to that gets sacrificed in trying to pay for therapies, treatments, ect for our speical needs kids to.

242. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 25th, 2009
     20:51:38

     jen,

     You’ve made a long post making a lot of points (September 25th, 2009
     16:29:39). I don’t have time to address all these points right now, but at least here are some:

     “I disagree with you, from a moral standpoint, copying and pasting a mother’s words and then, using that 1, out of many posts by this mother, as an example to say that biomed treatment as a whole is harmful to children or say this child is in a harmful situation because of it. I, personally feel, it would be more moral of you, if you feel the need to lurk on groups and discuss your findings, not to use a mother’s words, or any members words for that matter, and just discuss your own scientific data you collected to back your claim. If you feel like this is a topic of interest and you’d further like to investigate, imo, its would be more ethical of you to make your self known on each group stating…”hey, fyi-by the way, I’ll be reading all your posts and then using your words against you.””
     _

     First, I did not say that the child was in a harmful situation. Some of the comment have said that. I let the list speak for itself. And boy, does it speak volumes!

     I think I chose a balanced selection of posts. I did post some things that showed how her child was not doing well. But I also posted things showing how amazing her son is and how much she loves him. Most of Mary’s posts are actually responses to other people, saying “We tried intervention X, at such a dosage” or “We bought supplement Y at such a place”. I went through a large number of such posts to collect the items in the big list™ of treatments.

     Now, would anyone have believed me if I had produced that list without attaching a pseudonym to it, to personalize it? I saw that on one of the yahoo groups, a mother stated that she didn’t believe the list was real, it must be a compilation of things tried by many people! I also used Saul as a striking example of how children don’t necessarily improve on “biomedical autism treatments”. Generation Rescue and others routinely claim that children are recovering from autism. Saul is a counter-example, and from what I’ve seen, completely typical of the stories on those lists. Children are not recovering in any substantial numbers. Instead you get stories of little improvements, such as “oh, he’s now potty trained”, “since treatment X, he has better eye contact”.

     If I’d announced myself, do you think I’d have stayed a member? Really? Besides that, I’ve been a member of these lists for MANY years, back in the days when I thought, like you, that there might be some promise in biomedical “treatments” and that there was a possibility that autism might be caused by vaccines. That was in the day that there was still some scientific plausibility to those ideas. That day is long over. You see, my child is 13, diagnosed at 3, and I’ve been on many lists for all that time. But, after years of reading not only those lists, but the science (I mean the real science, not whale.to or the antivax sites), I’m totally convinced that autism is not caused by vaccines. There may still be some biomedical treatments discovered in the future that may be of use, but so far, the results of from rigorous studies have shown no substantial benefits. I have become so totally sickened by the extent of experimentation on vulnerable children, that I’d had enough. Back in the day that it was just B6/Magnesium and the GFCF diet, it was different. It’s a scary world out there right now for the “biomedically treated” child with autism, and I wanted to show that.

     Finally, I’d like to point out that the majority of the posts were taken from A-M. A-M is a PUBLIC list. Anyone can read it.

243. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     20:53:13

     Sullivan
     “I dream. My child dreams. Right now I am dreaming of a world where the biggest obstacle to my child’s dignity doesn’t come in the form of autism parents.”

     this was not the dream you had when your child was born, this is the dream you have NOW with your child have autism, that is exactly what I am talking about. all of us have dreams for our kids when they are born for them to marry, have fullfilling jobs, realtionships, have kids themselves, play ball perhaps with dad and long talks with moms ect. those often time aren’t acheivable with kids that are low functioning, and when young are given dxes. there is no way you can tell me you got your childs dx and still thought oh well!

     I to dream of a world where my son can still have all that, and acheieve all that, but even that comes with a huge price and work! and all that not to say that were not working for that we are, that is why we CHOICE biomedical becuase it is giving my son all that back. trust me we have had to sacrifice and our kids needs are far above our own!

244. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     21:08:04

     “when nearly every child in the United States had contracted measles. Therefore, we assumed that every child in the birth cohorts of 1950 and 1960 had measles before age 10 years. for 1970 through 1998, we used the CDC reports of the incidence of measles.

     Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis. Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR. We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR.

     Several effective vaccines against measles were licensed in 1963, and by 1968, the Moraten strain emerged as the live-attenuated vaccine of choice.12, 40 The vaccines were widely available almost immediately after licensing in 1963, and reported cases of measles dropped 10-fold within 5 years.12 Measles continued its downward trend when the CDC organized a nationwide measles eradication campaign from 1967 to 1969.”

     ok so lets think about this, kids born in 1950-1960 would have all had measles before age 10 and then a vaccination came out in 1963- 1968….....anyone ELSE see a reason numbers would drop around the same time (WITH OUT THE VACCINATION)
     if you are exposed to measles (and this CDC thing that is suppose to SUPPORT vaccinations is stating this)and had the measels you would have a generation of immune already kids there for rates would drop based on just that, as well as the rest of the house would have been exposed and developed antiboides to. then you have transfered immunity as well invitro. this only again goes to back what many of us on here are saying abou numbers dropping BEFORE vaccinations were in acted and not because of vaccatination but rather from exposure

245. 
     Stacey
     September 25th, 2009
     21:45:09

     “autism is the death of your dreams for your child,”

     I agree. When I was pregnant I dreamed of baking cookies together, school concerts and plays, cub scouts, little league football and baseball, learning to drive, graduating high school, college, and getting married. Oh and having grandkids.

     Now I pray and dream for the day my 10 year old can dress himself, answer a question with something other than a grunt, can stop ripping the skin off his own neck and in the long run, not end up in an institution.

     “I dream. My child dreams. Right now I am dreaming of a world where the biggest obstacle to my child’s dignity doesn’t come in the form of autism parents.”

     Was this your dream before your child was diagnosed? Was this your dream before your child was born? What were those dreams and how many of them have come true, and how many are realistic for the future?

246. 
     Emily
     September 25th, 2009
     22:09:01

     It’s not realistic to have any dreams for your child. You can parent, day to day. You can try to look forward, to prepare your child with tools to try to handle whatever the future may hold. But you can’t have dreams that you expect to be reality, whether your child has autism or not. It’s unrealistic. It’s a fairy tale. Childhood cancer, adolescent-onset schizophrenic disorder, a drunk driver, OCD, depressive disorder, suicide, freak accidents, misplaced poison, a fall from a tree, a new strain of flu, a lunatic boyfriend, a predator…any of these might wait around the corner to alter whatever expectations you were foolish enough to manufacture on behalf of yourself or your child.

     Not that you asked me, but I never have had any big dreams for my kids with one exception: I want them to be happy, by which I mean to feel comfortable with who they are in life. As a parent, part of my responsibility is facilitating this understanding of self for them. And a big part of it is knowing what any of us can change, what any of us should try to change, and what cannot be changed, and having the wisdom to understand the differences. I try and have always tried to understand what makes my children tick, what upsets them and why, even though it is often quite different from what upsets other people. And for negative behaviors, I try to work via my understanding of my children to help them have the tools to regulate their behaviors. In many cases, this continues to be a work in progress. It is work. Day by day. Not for some manufactured future I’ve planned for them, but for living their lives, now.

     I accept my children for who they are, and my oldest, who is autistic, is showing a remarkable ability to accept himself and understand himself. I guess that means that as of this day, whatever dreams I had for him have come true. But that’s just for today. I’m still amazed that any of them managed to complete gestation, given the enormous number of twists Fate can hold from conception onward.

247. 
     Chris
     September 25th, 2009
     22:09:29

     Please show the relative risk of the MMR vaccine versus getting the disease. Include the title, journal, date and authors of the papers with the supporting data. Cut and pasting from a website is not sufficient.

     It would also be nice if you would also post the title, journal, date and authors of the study that replicated Wakefield’s small set of case studies.

     Thank you.

248. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     22:18:14

     chris
     well when the CDC decided to finally report those numbers to everyone on stats we are all dieing to hear about, we will let you know. but since they are still covering there butts so as not to get spanked for getting caught in the cookie jar so to speak it may be awhile!

     but the TYPES of risks would be the same thing, it’s the same viruses

249. 
     jen
     September 25th, 2009
     22:20:39

     I just came across this link and thought it was very interesting and had some good facts. http://raising-angels.com/wp-c.....nation.pdf

     I’m sure KW will knock it cause its just a parent who is putting things together calling it research but its a good read.

     I have a question, seriously…not trying to be sarcastic, what all your thoughts on a huge majority of people across the globe who are, seemingly all of sudden, over the past 5-10yrs, banning together and questioning vaccines? Do you think its only because there are more cases of Autism and they need something to place blame? Do you honestly think all the anti-vaxers just decided, out of now-where, to take time out of their busy lives to create some sort of disillusion and to choose to totally disregard vaccines all together…going to such great lengths and being ok with the possibility of their child(ren) contracting an illness for no reason??

     At what point does common sense kick in for many. Why would anyone not believe a parent when they say…”my child was fine until that one jab…” Why is it ok to bash and drill a parent who is trying to do the best for their child but not ok to go after huge money-making companies with something to loose ($$). I am the one with my kids non-stop since birth. No doctor, no scientist or vaccine-maker, no newscast, no forms, no data..etc. Just me and my kids. I know how they are feeling, what’s going on, what bothers them and what doesn’t. How could you totally disregard parents who know their child(ren) and know what happened…who were there before and after.

     I also want to ask those on this group who either are or have children who suffer from Autism if you’ve tried simple or little things to help you better cope…not saying its a “cure” or you will be a new person but just to try and see…try taking probiotics (something we should ALL be taking, especially women) or how about digestive enzymes with meals (again, something else we should be on), or maybe even a diet change – gfcf. Gluten containing foods is not what its cracked up to be, and again, something we should all try to, at the very least, limit our in-take of. Even milk, its got a bad rap…especially the non-organic milk. Even fruits, has everyone – even NT people, have you tried to eat organic. I don’t believe trying the diet or simple things likes probiotics leads you down a path of no return as Guest Blogger states. I do believe a mother or father who tell me…”my child was non-verbal then 3 days later after being gfcf he/she was verbal.” I feel sad for the parents and their children who refuse to change their diet. I just don’t get it. Its totally a lot of work, but the rewards are just so awesome. I’d love for my son to be able to eat “normal” foods and hate all the time I spend in the kitchen but the end result…there are no words.

     I know I already hashed this diet thing earlier and Guest Blogger said he/she understands the changing of the diet if it helps but I do wonder if anyone here has tried and if they would even consider doing so to help themselves or their loved ones.

250. 
     jen
     September 25th, 2009
     22:36:24

     Emily you stated:

     “And a big part of it is knowing what any of us can change, what any of us should try to change, and what cannot be changed, and having the wisdom to understand the differences.”

     What you stated above sounds like the serenity prayer. You are sooo very right! And like you said, in the end the thing that really only matters is the child’s happiness! You said…”knowing what any of us CAN change” and if you could all try and understand parents like “Mary” are choosing to try and do things to test what they can and can’t change. They are doing what they CAN to ensure their child leads a happy and healthy life. And from what another, who is involved in this discussion who knows “Mary”, has stated during this discussion is that “Saul” IS happy and healthy and doing great then ever before And based on that I would think case-closed and end of discussion.

251. 
     Stacey
     September 25th, 2009
     22:36:35

     Emily I didn’t say they were dreams for my child. They were dreams for me. I dreamed of watching a kid play ball. I dreamed of things he would do. If he didn’t want to do those things fine, he’d do something else. I just never dreamed that instead of a little league sport or music show I’d be sitting around observing 4 hours of ABA every day or cleaning diarrhea off the walls 5-6 times a week, or that I would never be able to go any where because not a living soul is willing to babysit my child, or that I’d still be wiping his ass at 10 years old. Yes things happen but my dreams died. I have new dreams yes but I still ache for the old ones.

     When I was 10 I wanted to grow up to be a pediatric heart surgeon. We had a family member who had open heart surgery at 6 months old and I wanted to grow up and be like the doctor that saved him. That dream never went away. I got great grades in high school and got accepted to a 6 year med program at a great college. For the life of me I couldn’t get through chemistry. Had tutors and everything. Just could do it. Did I move on to a new dream? Yes but I still think back and wish I could have been a doctor. It’s 25 years later and I still miss that dream.

     It always seems that the parents who are least understanding are the ones with kid who are very verbal, or can express themselves well with alternate communication devices, that can explain how they feel, and express what they want and need.

     What about the parents of kids who can’t talk or communicate, who bang their heads, scratch and bite themselves, smear crap on walls, lick glass, never sleep, and cant as much as feed themselves? They love their kids unconditionally but is it realistic for them to sit back and watch these children and think “it is what is and I totally accept my child’s condition?” Those poor kids are suffering. They are either in physical pain or mental pain from frustration because their bodies don’t work the way they do.

252. 
     Joseph
     September 25th, 2009
     22:37:03

     I have a question, seriously…not trying to be sarcastic, what all your thoughts on a huge majority of people across the globe who are, seemingly all of sudden, over the past 5-10yrs, banning together and questioning vaccines?

     The anti-vaccine movement exists since the day the first vaccine was used. There’s an “anti-” movement for everything.

     Now, the modern autism-based anti-vaccine movement is a phenomenon in its own right.

     Clearly, the “autism epidemic” idea is what allows it to exist at all, but it’s also become a sort of industry that includes a combination of litigation and the promotion of quackery, both profitable pursuits; not to mention its social aspects (e.g. “Mary”’s motivation.)

253. 
     Kwombles
     September 25th, 2009
     22:43:13

     Jen,

     Are you honestly and seriously arguing that we should believe you based on the number of people who agree with you? Really?

     The number of people believing something to be real has no relevance on objective, scientifically-demonstrable reality.

     For example, a common mental disorder in Asian countries is koro. Doesn’t really mean men’s penises are shrinking at all, even if large groups of men can become convinced this is real.

     http://www.mentalhealth.com/mag1/wolfgang.html

     http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/9/16/81843/6555

     For you to then move onto the argument that it’s all in the diet and if only we’d follow behind you and do you what you’ve done is not much better. You have no idea how many of us have tried the diet, nor for how long. And I have not seen anyone who does not agree with the autism-vaccine link argue that food allergies and intolerances should not be treated with customized diets. You’re making blanket assumptions about people you profess to have only come across on Wednesday. (Oh, I know, some of us are talked about in those groups you seem to think we love to hate—not a sentiment I’ve personally expressed nor seen expressed by others—you don’t have to hate a group to think the group’s collective belief system is woo).

     You appear to have tremendous difficulty with allowing for multiple perspectives. You know, if I were to engage in the same kind of two dimensional thinking that you and Cristel have provided here over the last couple days, I would have to conclude that a subset of parents of autistic (or not autistic, apparently, who knew you made autism and could unmake it?) children has tremendous difficulty with critical thinking and reasoning skills as well as with ego-issues.

     Did you know there’s a fantastic study out there about competency and the recognition of one’s own competency levels? http://www.apa.org/journals/fe.....761121.pdf

254. 
     jen
     September 25th, 2009
     22:45:48

     Joseph said:
     “it’s also become a sort of industry that includes a combination of litigation and the promotion of quackery, both profitable pursuits; not to mention its social aspects (e.g. “Mary”’s motivation.)”

     Yes, you are right, I guess I didn’t think about that…there was an anti-vax movement since the birth of vaccines. So, I guess my question should have stated the “modern Autism-based” instead.

     Anyway, but I don’t agree with your above statement. While of course there are always a bad apple here and there among the bunch I have personally have seen no evidence of any of those negatives you mention but only positives.

255. 
     christel king
     September 25th, 2009
     22:47:56

     guest blogger (that in which wrote the above)
     a public formum verses you pulling out what YOU choose to are very different things. people can go and read and react and see the whole conversation and the circumstances in which those things are written on a group, you came with an adgenda so those items being extracted and being balenced can’t possibley line up. you have a motive!

     you also need to stay around those groups alot longer because you failed in that time to see the gains many of those great kids ARE making. there are daily reports of huge gains, and side note potty training IS a huge feet if you gain that from a change, many can fight for 6 years or 8 years to get that. and (UNDERLINED) I was the one that posted perhaps the person isn’t real and you were just pulling them, to which the REAL “mary” contacted me. so i do know they are not. what you have failed to grasp which really begs me to believe you really read all her posts is that her child has PANDAS> one of the posts you pulled talks about his regression and how poorly he is doing. you used that to back that he hasn’t made gains. when this is exactly what we are talking about, it’s not representitive of the gains “saul” has made in his time on biomedical. he is in a PANDAS flare durring that extracted peice which you fail to mention. it’s a temperary set back till treatment is in place, and finding specialist in this is even harder then those in autism. PANDAS makes autism look like a breeze! this spirals a child backwards as there brain is under attack. yet agian showing you are not the one qualified to be picking and choosing a representation from this womans life of what her son has gained or not gained from his time with biomed or it being representative of a whole board of people. PANDAS Is not a common thing in kids on the groups. in like 14000 families on one group there are a few hundred kids with double dxes

256. 
     Chris
     September 25th, 2009
     22:56:26

     christel king:
     

     well when the CDC decided to finally report those numbers to everyone on stats we are all dieing to hear about,

     The CDC only covers the USA. What about public health programs in other countries like the UK, Canada, Japan and elsewhere?

     This is the CDC data covering over fifty years of several diseases: CDC Pink Book Appendix G

     Why just the CDC? I want scientific evidence, and that would include research from several universities all around the world. Surely you know how to look for real research (I found the list of studies on http://www.pubmed.gov ). Just show me the studies that support your contention that the MMR vaccine is worse than the diseases. You should be able find stuff going back to at least to the 1960s that would include its testing, evaluation and followup before and after it was approved for use in the USA in 1971.

     but the TYPES of risks would be the same thing, it’s the same viruses

     That does not answer my question. Why do you think that the effect of the full strength virus from the disease would have a lesser effect than the attenuated virus of the vaccine? I am really not interested in opinion or anecdotes, I want real data.

     I do have one paper that tried to replicate Wakefield’s set of a dozen case studies. Read it and tell me if it confirms Wakefield’s conclusions: Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

     If you know of a study that actually replicated Wakefield’s study, please tell us the title, journal, date and authors.

     Thank you.

     I find it disturbing in that you are implying that a dead child is preferable to an autistic child. That is very sad.

257. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     01:07:06

     Kwombles
     we may have to agree to disagree as we have the same view of you that you have followed the masses! just believeing the mass media scares and vaccination sales departments. were still waiting for you to show those studies showing vaccinations are safe and testing in combo form, and of course TESTED on kids with developing immune systems…..

258. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     01:19:35

     chris

     “I find it disturbing in that you are implying that a dead child is preferable to an autistic child. That is very sad.”

     I never said that, that is twisting my words…...but we can see you guys like to do that, take tid bits to fit your adgenda to make people look as you like it to for your motive!

     i’m saying we have traded one for another as a people. that there may not be deaths from measels but now we have deaths from vaccinations instead. kids are still subjected to measles just now straight into there blood stream via needles. which isn’t how your GOd given immune system is meant to work, you have first line defences ect that are meant to kick in first.

     I meantion the CDC because only THEY would have the controled rate of cases verse vaccinations reactions records with VARS which is STILL under reported. our dr even thought it was in our hospital records of vacination reaction was never sent in, WE had to do it years later when we realized he never did. that was the whole point in the program was to monitor negitive reactions to see if it WAS working and to help families that experienced those things. you can’t compair apples to organges. I don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know that. if you are compairing US measles mumps and rubella cases in the US you would have to compair reactions to vaccinations in the US. and since that is so gaurded because they don’t want to take responcibility for families they have damaged it will be a long time in coming for us all to have those peices of data

     as for wakefields work, Dr Buie at Mass General has been working to do that for a while, we see him and contributed our sons biopies to them. we have also been in studies PERSONALLY with titer and treatment testing for those with regressive autism and treatments with VIT A protical seeing great things. even had a break out when the immune system finally kicked in from head to toe in mealsels confirmed by 4 dr’s. and speach took off after that point like a rocket and amazed the dr’s that saw us 2 times a week to monitor our son and the changes our BIOMEDICAL was doing in a mainstream setting! we left them all amazed

259. 
     Sullivan
     September 26th, 2009
     01:32:38

     as for wakefields work, Dr Buie at Mass General has been working to do that for a while,

     Dr. Buie was a co-author on the paper which is widely regarded as the final nail in the coffin of Dr. Wakefield’s hypothesis.

     Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study

     Mady Hornig1*, Thomas Briese1, Timothy Buie2, Margaret L. Bauman3, Gregory Lauwers4, Ulrike Siemetzki1, Kimberly Hummel5, Paul A. Rota5, William J. Bellini5, John J. O’Leary6, Orla Sheils6, Errol Alden7, Larry Pickering8, W. Ian Lipkin1*

     bold is mine.

260. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     01:34:31

     JEN

     “I know I already hashed this diet thing earlier and Guest Blogger said he/she understands the changing of the diet if it helps but I do wonder if anyone here has tried and if they would even consider doing so to help themselves or their loved ones.”

     after helping hundreds of families and teaching classes year after year on biomedical helps to treat underlying medical issues that cause autism, I find so many people think you just pull gluten and casein and walla you have a new kid, and it’s not always that simple. I know one mom I worked with was willing and went full force and was maticulous with everything, a back ground in food education ect. she saw nothing, she was fusturated and ready to quit. I encouraged her to do testing to refine her issues and then treat them as the issues and not just a cover blanket this is what everyone else is doing. she got tested and low and behold potatoes and rice were higher then gluten and milk which were used as her subs when she pulled out gluten. when she RETRIED the diet with the info she had from testing her son finally took off. another common mistake I see made is that parents go in and sub everything out and end up OVER carbing kids because they feel guilty about taking things away. this is why I always tell parents its not about what you are taking away it’s about moving to healthy eating habits. picture what you want your child to be eating in a balenced diet and work towards that. think a meat, a veg, a carb, and perhaps a fruit for desert. and move forward that way. it’s not about removing something like to loose weight, it’s about getting healthy and getting our kids bodies healthy

261. 
     Kwombles
     September 26th, 2009
     01:37:34

     Christel,

     Your arguments might have sway if they were based on factual information. Vaccines aren’t injected into your bloodstream; they are injected subcutaneously. Massive difference and one you would have been aware of and understood if you read reputable sites.

     “we may have to agree to disagree as we have the same view of you that you have followed the masses! just believeing the mass media scares and vaccination sales departments.”

     Huh? You have the same view of me? of posters here? of whom? Can you explain this part—”have followed the masses”? Who is “believing the mass media scares and vaccination sales departments”? Is it “mass media scares” as an entity, that the mass media is attempting to scare people? Of what? To do what? Are you suggesting that the mass media is in colusion with big pharma to sell vaccines and make an entire generation autistic? Wait a minute, that’s right, it isn’t autism, it’s a whole bunch of other stuff that the doctors are colluding to call autism because they don’t want to take responsibility for screwing up a kid with his developing immune system. That’s right; how could I possibly forget?

     We don’t have to agree to disagree. I’m pretty sure there is very little I would agree with you on based on the “in loving color” butchering of science I’ve seen you and your bud Jen engage in here. That’s fine, though. Perhaps we could agree that Grey’s Anatomy is a good show, although god knows you’ll probably think that’s a big pharma effort with the mass media to brainwash the masses into thinking mainstream medicine is a good thing. I suppose that depends on the episode, though, and whether someone is screwing up a patient. You’ve proven you are a conspiracy theorist, that’s without doubt.

262. 
     Chris
     September 26th, 2009
     02:29:30

     christel king:
     

     I don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know that. if you are compairing US measles mumps and rubella cases in the US you would have to compair reactions to vaccinations in the US.

     Blatant avoidance to answering the question has been duly noted. Did you even try to find the information?

     What is VARS? Do you mean VAERS? That is a self-selected and reported set of raw data, and the data is released researchers all the time (including the Geiers). Read On Using VAERS.

     Here is some more data (Sullivan linked to the Hornig, Briese, Buie study I have mentioned a couple of times):

     No Evidence of Persisting Measles Virus in Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells from Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
     D’Souza Y et al.
     Pediatrics 2006; 118(4):1664-75

     *Subjects: 54 children with autism spectrum disorder and 34 developmentally normal children

     Age at First Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in Children with Autism and School-Matched Control Subjects: A Population-Based Study in Metropolitan Atlanta.
     DeStefano F et al. Pediatrics 2004; 113(2): 259-66

     *Subjects: 624 children with autism and 1,824 controls

     Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California.
     Dales L et al.
     JAMA 2001; 285(9):1183-5

     *Subjects: Children born in 1980-94 who were enrolled in California kindergartens (survey samples of 600–1,900 children each year)

     Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
     Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
     Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

263. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     02:40:27

     i’m saying we have traded one for another as a people. that there may not be deaths from measels but now we have deaths from vaccinations instead.

     Actually, there is absolutely nothing that even approaches some sort of even trade.
     Total compensated MMR/MMR-Varicella deaths in the U.S. since 1988 (over 20 years) = 53

     That’s about 2 per year.

     See:

     National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
     Statistics Reports

     Measles deaths prior to MMR in the U.S.?

     In the first 20 years of MMR vaccine licensure alone, it’s estimated to have prevented about 5,000 deaths (not to mention about 17,000 cases of mental retardation, and 52 million cases of measles).

     See:

     Health Impact of Measles Vaccination in the United States
     PEDIATRICS Vol. 76 No. 4 October 1985, pp. 524-532

     Please don’t bother to cite whale dot to, if you’re tempted – your argument would automatically lose any merit that may appear.

     kids are still subjected to measles just now straight into there blood stream via needles.

     I don’t suppose you have any idea what an attenuated vaccine is, do you? IM injections?

     which isn’t how your GOd given immune system is meant to work, you have first line defences ect that are meant to kick in first.

     The immune system is quite certainly a product of evolution. Even if you subscribe to a belief that “God Given” can simply translate to “unvaccinated” regardless of religious belief, the notion that one should get the disease “first” instead of an attenuated vaccine to prevent it in the first place, is ludicrous (it’s also a great way to get those 53 deaths in 20 years back up to 5,000 in the same period).

264. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     04:39:30

     “Our results differ with reports noting MV RNA in ileal biopsies of 75% of ASD vs. 6% of control children [10], [41]. Discrepancies are unlikely to represent differences in experimental technique because similar primer and probe sequences, cycling conditions and instruments were employed in this and earlier reports; furthermore, one of the three laboratories participating in this study performed the assays described in earlier reports. ”

     found this part of the artical interesting

265. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     04:43:19

     chris still waiting for you to show me those vaccinations have been tested to be safe in that number for those ages in current combo…..
     no testing has been done.

     the compairson to deaths from the disease to deaths from vaccination from it is something we ALL are waiting on.

     it would shock you more then me!

266. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     05:04:10

     yes VAERS I was typing to fast! unforchantly it’s the only thing we have for reporting unless you want the reports us parents have which you claim to not be good enough…..

     guess that would be a GOOD place for those who SHOULD be taking responcible for their product to do so we ALL have that info. in find it funny they say they don’t investigate it. we got contacted on all our filing, had to fill out forms and provide data from the hosptial and dr’s offices showing our damages.

     childhood toys and other meds DO have reporting process like that through FDA so that if things have a to high a rate of things they are pulled (viox) why vaccinations are so protected and untouchable is part of what makes us all sick. especially since it’s recommended for all. again…..things are STILL not tested in combo ect even showing it’s safe for our kids to begin with. you want to talk about guini pigs, that is what we have made of our generation of children. and the ones paying that price for it all is our kids!

     to think you can do “anything” to a whole community with out negitives is just foolish. there is always going to be some that react negitively, why is it that vaccinations are the acception to that?

     the stuff you are wanting is so protected the courts are having trouble even accessing it, and lawyers…..ever wonder why that is?? and whose interest are they protecting. it’s not yours and mine let me assure you.

     oh and you missed the meaning of what I am saying, yes vaccinations are injected, they are IM which goes into the blood stream, when you are exposed it’s very different. it doesn’t disperse like that you have first line of defences- musuc membrains ect. it’s how your immune system is designed to work.

     the meaning of the mass media is that if you DON’T vaccinate you are going to get these deadly diseases and die and risk others health which is bunk! we now advertize meds on TV in between kids cartoons for junk dxes like restless leg syndrom ect….where half the time if you listen to the listed side effects they are worse then why you are taking them in the first place, which is again the arguement. again I would ALSO like to see that stats on odds of negitive reactions to vaccinations verses the odds of getting the disease and haveing negitive reacations from having had them. been through measels, been through mumps, been through menengitis. not anywhere as scary as what they show you on tv and make it out to be if you don’t do the Holy vaccinations. and the great thing is we are immune for life to!

267. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     05:16:15

     Doc you said: “Actually, there is absolutely nothing that even approaches some sort of even trade.
     Total compensated MMR/MMR-Varicella deaths in the U.S. since 1988 (over 20 years) = 53
     That’s about 2 per year.
     See:
     National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
     Statistics Reports”

     There is no compensation if they don’t agree your child was injured by a vaccine. Stories such as the one below are the reason you get your 2 a year!

     “Parents of an infant who died within hours of receiving a DPT vaccination failed to prove her death was caused by a reaction to an endotoxin in the vaccine, a federal appellate court ruled. The parents of a healthy baby born Dec. 2, 1982, brought her in for her first diptheria-pertussis-tetanus shot on Feb. 23, 1983. Shortly after returning home, the infant had two screaming and crying episodes. The mother put her in her crib to cry herself to sleep; when she checked 30 to 45 minutes later, the baby was limp, pale, unresponsive and not breathing. She was taken to the hospital by ambulance, but could not be revived. An autopsy listed sudden infant death syndrome as the cause of death.

     The parents petitioned for compensation under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act; the trial court denied their petition. On appeal, the parents argued the fact the child had been found found unresponsive and in cardiac and pulmonary arrest was clear evidence of hypotonic- hyporesponsive collapse from an endotoxin in the vaccine. HHC is compensable under the act.

     The court said the parents must present a medical theory causally connecting the vaccination with the child’s cardiac and pulmonary arrest. Evidence in the record failed to support the parent’s theory that death was caused by a reaction to endotoxin in the vaccine. The court concluded that a causal link between the vaccination and death could not be based merely on the short time between the events.

     Hodges v. Secretary of Dept. of HHS, 9F.3d 958 (C.A. Fed. Cir., Nov. 15, 1993)”

268. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     05:20:34

     Do’c here is another one…

     “SIDS doesn’t prove DPT vaccine-injury claim.
     The parents of a child who allegedly died as a result of a vaccination were not entitled to compensation, ruled a federal appellate court. The child was born by routine C-Section in December 1983. Starting in her second month of life, she was given phenobarbital for colic. In her fourth month, she received a DPT vaccination and, the same day, a few hours later, a dose of phenobarbital. She awoke two hours later, at 9:30 p.m., and took some but not all of her bottle and cereal. The next morning between 6 and 6:30 she was found dead in her crib. An autopsy later classified her death as sudden infant death syndrome.

     The parents sought compensation under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Act. In their action filed in the federal claims court, they asserted the child died from either anaphylactic shock or hypotonic-hyporesponsive collapse, both compensable under the program. In the alternative, the parents claimed the child had died from some other injury caused by the DTP vaccination.

     The special master assigned to the case determined that neither cause was responsible for the death. He concluded the parents had failed to establish by a preponderance of evidence the vaccination was the cause of death. Reversing this decision, the claims court held that the undisputed evidence of respiratory or cardiovascular failure required a determination that HHC was present. As the precise cause of death was unknown, it was necessary to accept as a matter of law that symptoms of HHC, including respiratory and cardiac arrest, constituted the presence of HHC.

     On appeal, court reversed. The claims court had made two errors, it explained. The first was in ignoring the plain language of the Vaccine Act, which required establishment of cause of death by a preponderance of the evidence. The second was in failing to recognize that nothing in the act supported the conclusion that when cause of death was unknown, the presence of symptoms such as cardiovascular or respiratory arrest superseded the requirement of a preponderance of evidence.

     Hellebrand v. Secretary of Dept. of HHS, 999 E2d 1565 (C.A., Fed. Cir., July 23, 1993)”

     These articles are an amazing demonstration that the federal government does not believe DPT can kill your baby even if death occurs within hours of receiving a vaccine shot These parents are up against a wall!

269. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     05:22:09

     Do’c
     as dicussed previously those numbers went down even based on the info you provided with out vaccinations throw in as the timeing also corrilates according to thier own info on a generation of people all being exposed to measels and contracting to it, meaning they already had antibodies to it which would cause for a dive in numbers. vaccinations didn’t change that, but that IS what they would LIKE you to believe so they can SELL You that product.

     “Actually, there is absolutely nothing that even approaches some sort of even trade.
     Total compensated MMR/MMR-Varicella deaths in the U.S. since 1988 (over 20 years) = 53

     That’s about 2 per year.”

     thanks you proving my point! the numbers of death from infections are down compaired to what they were back in the 50-60’s. (again I argue NOT from vaccinations but rather exposure and transfered immunity) back then they were what 300 per year??? you have to compair those numbers to how many deaths are caused by the vaccination death rate. so are we really any further ahead??? no! we just have a higher rate of autism from a side effect from over toxic kids trusting in dr’s to keep chucking more stuff into them before they can handle the load. (with out safty being checked and tested before hand) at what rate of kids being effected to we wake up and say enough is what we should be asking.

     even if kids are dieing or being damaged from vaccinations PLUS something like underlying conditions ect you still have to atribute that as part of the factor….would they be there with out the vaccination spirialing it. mito issues has been discussed with that, allergies, comprimised immune system at time of vaccinations, low glutathione ect. dr’s should be looking for warning signs of that, be educated on the medium they are driving so to speak. and do so responcilbly when they are trusted to be the expert on the day you show up. RISK ASSESMENT so to speak.

270. 
     christel king
     September 26th, 2009
     05:30:22

     by the way since religon was pulled into this it’s not prevention verses disease with vaccinations, it’s WAY more then that.

     GOD gives us what we need to protect itself, to think unwise means he doesn’t know what he is doing and has created us to be flawed. we have done the damage to ourself not him. welcome to sin and the world

     2nd He never intended us to inject other animals DNA into our body, monkey, dog, chicken ect

     3rd, HE never intended us to inject metals into ourself either that can harm the functions of the body to work and are designed to function as.

     4th. He would NEVER want us to use an aborted child to mediate meds on and then inject into our children either. it goes against all he stands for

     there isn’t anything in a vacination that was meant to go into our bodies in the manner they are put into them

     he gave us and designed our immune system to fight for us. he designed foods and nutrients to strengthen our body. and no I am not antimed either, he also gives us wisdom to use the things he has provided us with like plants ect to help our bodies in broken times to. that is how medicine evolved. but I think somewhere along the way people got greedy and careless and said lets take this to make this cheeper even though it probley shouldn’t be put into the body in this medium, and didn’t think about how it could effect this thing or that things in the body. praise God for advances in meds and research but we need to be wise in how we use them to. they can benifit or harm. homeopathy is an example using some of the same stuff of little forms of this or that to provoke responces in the body immune wise with out injecting into places they weren’t meant to have first contact with!

271. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     05:38:21

     KW - I, think CK would agree she is not either, am not a conspiracy theorist but rather a realist. Realizing things are possible. That money over the health and safety of our children is possible.

     http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d7_1182492879
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....tube_gdata (in case the top link doesn’t work)

     Above is a perfect example how both a major drug company like Bayer and the federal government had NO problem putting one over on their customers and the rest of the public. And to make matters worse their customers were primarily made up of children! How sick is this!

272. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     05:46:41

     Also, if vaccines were so great and save the day on all these terrible illnesses and US Vaccinates more than any other country then why o why does the US have the highest vaccine rates and the worst under 5 child mortality rate????

273. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     05:51:19

     Can someone explain this?? What are some of the “symptoms” associated with Autism?? I will say off the top of my head…spinning, hand-flapping, sensory issues, poor speech and poor coordination for starters.

     Have you ever looked up the symptoms for Mercury poisoning??? Lets try Wikipedia for grins…
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning

     “Symptoms typically include sensory impairment (vision, hearing, speech), disturbed sensation and a lack of coordination. The type and degree of symptoms exhibited depend upon the individual toxin, the dose, and the method and duration of exposure.”

274. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     05:51:19

     Jen, I provided data specific to MMR and measles (Christel specifically mentioned measles). You counter with stories about DPT? Does this make sense to you?

     Christel, because something was discussed previously does not magically make nonsense into sense. Thanks for not quoting Whale though.

     While you are certainly entitled to you beliefs, religious assertions have absolutely zero relevance in the discussion of scientific matters. Along the lines of trying to understand your beliefs, who created people who study science and medicine and invent vaccines? Who created unvaccinated autistic children?

275. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     05:53:53

     Also, if vaccines were so great and save the day on all these terrible illnesses and US Vaccinates more than any other country then why o why does the US have the highest vaccine rates and the worst under 5 child mortality rate????

     A true GR disciple. Jen, tell us about the impact of access to healthcare on mortality across the various U.S. demographics. Feel free to explain any relevance to autism whatsoever too.

276. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     05:54:02

     Do’c I used the DPT story just as an example. You totally disregarded the point. Whether its DPT, DTaP, MMR, polio, whatever…they don’t want to compensate you for a variety of reasons and when you aren’t compensated you aren’t counted in those stats.

277. 
     Chris
     September 26th, 2009
     05:54:07

     christel king:
     

     chris still waiting for you to show me those vaccinations have been tested to be safe in that number for those ages in current combo…..
     no testing has been done.

     Classic case of moving the goalposts. You have not shown any data showing the vaccine is a big killer, nor any that it causes autism, yet you demand me to show you stuff… even after I have presented you with several studies.

     The data is there, and has been give to you. D’oC actually gave you the totals for MMR vaccine deaths. The problem is that you refuse to look at it, nor are willing to comprehend it.

     I am willing to bet you will not even bother to read this study:
     http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g.....id=3923849 (tell me the title, date, authors and what it says as evidence that you bothered to read it)

     The MMR has been in use for almost forty years in the USA. If you are less than forty years old you most likely were vaccinated with it yourself. It has never had thimerosal nor aluminum, and has prevented thousands of deaths in the USA, and millions of deaths worldwide.

     But just for grins and giggles have fun:

     Am J Dis Child. 1962 Mar;103:484-95.
     Perspectives for testing safety of live measles vaccine.
     HILLEMAN MR, GOLDNER H.

     JAMA. 1969 Mar 24;207(12):2259-62.
     Combined live measles, mumps, and rubella virus vaccines.
     Buynak EB, Weibel RE, Whitman JE Jr, Stokes J Jr, Hilleman MR.

     Am J Dis Child. 1971 May;121(5):380-1.
     Combined live measles, mumps, rubella vaccine. Immunological response.
     Krugman S, Muriel G, Fontana VJ.

     JAMA. 1971 Oct 4;218(1):57-61.
     Trivalent combined measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. Findings in clinical-laboratory studies.
     Stokes J Jr, Weibel RE, Villarejos VM, Arguedas JA, Buynak EB, Hilleman MR.

     Pediatrics. 1973 Mar;51(3):467-75.
     Persistence of immunity following monovalent and combined live measles, mumps, and rubella virus vaccines.
     Weibel RE, Buynak EB, Stokes J Jr, Hilleman MR.

     Rev Inst Med Trop Sao Paulo. 1973 May-Jun;15(3):161-4.
     [Side effects of the use of the preventive mixed mumps, rubella and measles vaccine inchildren of the City of São Paulo][Article in Portuguese]
     Konichi SR, Laus WC, Mattos CA, Amato Neto V, Aly J, Finger H, Bianchi A.

     Infection. 1974;2(3):115-7.
     Combined trivalent and bivalent measles, mumps and rubella virus vaccination. A controlled trial.
     Swartz TA, Klingberg W, Klingberg MA.

     Am J Dis Child. 1975 Dec;129(12):1408-12.
     Clinical evaluation of a new measles-mumps-rubella trivalent vaccine.
     Schwarz AJ, Jackson JE, Ehrenkranz NJ, Ventura A, Schiff GM, Walters VW.

     Am J Dis Child. 1978 Jun;132(6):573-7.
     Rubella, measles and mumps antibodies following vaccination of children. A potential rubella problem.
     Balfour HH Jr, Amren DP.

     J Med Assoc Thai. 1978 Sep;61(9):536-43.Links
     Seroconversion and reaction of vaccines, rubella—mumps and measles—rubella—mumps combined.
     Khanjanasthiti P, Jayavasu J, Kashemsant C, Dhanamitta S, Prapattong S.

     Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1980 Nov;165(2):323-6.
     Clinical and laboratory studies of combined live measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines using the RA 27/3 rubella virus.
     Weibel RE, Carlson AJ Jr, Villarejos VM, Buynak EB, McLean AA, Hilleman MR.

     Am J Dis Child. 1984 Sep;138(9):843-7.
     Clinical trial of a new trivalent measles-mumps-rubella vaccine in young children.
     Vesikari T, Ala-Laurila EL, Heikkinen A, Terho A, D’Hondt E, André FE.

     Lancet. 1986 Apr 26;1(8487):939-42.
     Frequency of true adverse reactions to measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. A double-blind placebo-controlled trial in twins.
     Peltola H, Heinonen OP.

     Pediatrics. 1988 Feb;81(2):237-46
     Simultaneous administration of measles-mumps-rubella vaccine with booster doses of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and poliovirus vaccines.
     Deforest A, Long SS, Lischner HW, Girone JA, Clark JL, Srinivasan R, Maguire TG, Diamond SA, Schiller RP, Rothstein EP, et al.

     Pediatrics. 1990 Apr;85(4 Pt 2):682-9.
     Safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of concurrent administration of Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine (meningococcal protein conjugate) with either measles-mumps-rubella vaccine or diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and oral poliovirus vaccines in 14- to 23-month-old infants.
     Dashefsky B, Wald E, Guerra N, Byers C.

     Public Health. 1991 Mar;105(2):91-7.
     A randomised single blind trial of a combined mumps measles rubella vaccine to evaluate serological response and reactions in the UK population.
     Edees S, Pullan CR, Hull D.

     Am J Dis Child. 1993 Aug;147(8):854-7.
     Simultaneous administration of a diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine with measles-mumps-rubella and oral poliovirus vaccines.
     Rothstein EP, Bernstein HH, Glode MP, Laussucq S, Nonenmacher J, Long SS, Hackell JG.

     Clin Infect Dis. 1997 May;24(5):925-31.
     Measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella combination vaccine: safety and immunogenicity alone and in combination with other vaccines given to children. Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Varicella Vaccine Study Group.
     White CJ, Stinson D, Staehle B, Cho I, Matthews H, Ngai A, Keller P, Eiden J, Kuter B.
     Department of Clinical Research, Merck Research Laboratories, West Point, Pennsylvania 19486,

     Now tell me what the relative risks are between the MMR vaccine and actually getting measles, mumps and rubella. Please provide the journal, title, date and authors of the paper you cite to support your answer.

     Also, provide the journal, title, date and authors of the study that has replicated and confirmed Wakefield’s set of a dozen case studies. Giving the name of one doctor who was working on it was not sufficient, especially since the paper he co-authored did not seem to confirm your contention that (to quote you) “wakefield’s stuff wasn’t flawed and credability has been restored in that situation and the man who published the mess lost his job over the whole thing.” (by the way, is the fellow who lost his job the same one this check is written out to?)

278. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     05:55:38

     Jen,
     Re: mercurism/autism
     2001 called, they want their hypothesis back.

279. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     05:56:07

     What is that??? “A true GR disciple.”

280. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     06:08:24

     A commenter who would read something produced by Generation Rescue as gospel truth (even if they acquired it second hand and are only parroting it) and as if it were relevant to autism in any way.

281. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     06:10:57

     So Jen, your point (as irrelevant to Christel’s claim as it was), is not lost me. Do you have real evidence (e.g. data) that would lend itself to support Christel’s original implication of the trade based on different mortality numbers? Or are you just throwing irrelevant stories out there?

282. 
     David N. Brown
     September 26th, 2009
     06:26:00

     Christel,
     If you will not read what I have written already, we have very little to discuss. Two things I can say: First, aluminum is a component of the feldspars, kaolinite and many other extremely common minerals. If it were a serious threat to life, the planet would be uninhabitable. Second, there was never enough mercury in vaccines to poison even a child, unless a substantially larger amount (I came up with FOUR TIMES as much in a calculation of my own) from other sources. If you are concerned about mercury poisoning, quit sea food, not vaccines.

283. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     06:32:54

     Do’C, don’t know about Generation Rescue. As far as your first comment: “tell us about the impact of access to healthcare on mortality across the various U.S. demographics. Feel free to explain any relevance to autism whatsoever too.”

     First of all I can not tell you the impact of access because not much of any data exists. If you know, please do share. “Traditional measures and data sources on children’s access to health care are limited. Not all traditional measures of mainstream health care (e.g., care provided in physicians’ offices, hospitals, and emergency departments) are tailored to children’s health care needs. Moreover, children sometimes get needed services outside the mainstream health care system, such as in schools, public specialty clinics, and from non-physician subspecialists. Mainstream efforts to collect data on children’s health care rarely collect information about these sources of health care. As a result, little is known about how and where many children obtain many health services and about the extent to which there may be disparities among children.”

     I do know that access to healthcare for those who have Autism isn’t too good or as good as it should. And have not proof if the two are correlated.

     Can you tell me, if not the mercury then what? What is your hypothesis as to why the rates continue to climb?

284. 
     Chris
     September 26th, 2009
     06:35:04

     Whoa! I spend some time to respond with one comment, and then notice that multiple comments by three other people are made! You people are obsessed!

     jen, make up your mind. Is it thimerosal or the MMR? Because the MMR never contained thimerosal (nor aluminum), and thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines almost eight years ago.

     Plus the DTP was replaced by the DTaP several years ago (there is no “DPT” vaccine). Except that is not what I am asking about.

     What real data do you have that shows the relative risks between the MMR vaccine and the actual diseases of measles, mumps and rubella? Please provide the journal, title, date and author of the study you use to back up your conclusion.

     Though it can wait a day or so, I am going to bed.

285. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     06:42:35

     David N. Brown, can I please step in for a second and can you explain this…
     “The amount of ethylmercury to which children were exposed through vaccines prior to the 1999 announcement exceeded two safety thresholds established by the Federal Government for a closely related substance – methylmercury. While the Federal Government has established no safety threshold for ethylmercury, experts agree that the methylmercury guidelines are a good substitute. Federal health officials have conceded that the amount of thimerosal in vaccines exceeded the EPA threshold of 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of bodyweight. In fact, the amount of mercury in one dose of DTaP or Hepatitis B vaccines (25 micrograms each) exceeded this threshold many times over. Federal health officials have not conceded that this amount of thimerosal in vaccines exceeded the FDA’s more relaxed threshold of 0.4 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. In most cases, however, it clearly did. As evidence of the growing concern of the adverse effects of mercury, the FDA has recently changed its permissible dose of oral methylmercury from 0.4 microgram to 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day.”
     http://www.nationalautismassoc.....erosal.php

286. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     07:05:54

     Chris, first of all Do’C was the first to say “DPT” and there is a DPT its diphtheria – tetanus – pertussis

     Second,I’m not seeing where you think I’m flip-flopping but I think all vaccines are un-safe and I think there is no way to know which jab will be the jab that will do your child in until too late. I believe, as Dr. Bock states in his book, environmental & genetics set the stage and vaccines pull the trigger. I believe it is our each genetic make-up that does not allow certain individuals to handle vaccines causing a reaction, if you will, which can lead to Autism. The amount of vaccines, the ingredients, the viruses…everything about the vaccine including the number given at one time and the young age they begin administering all together all play a role in Autism.

     And why do you think Thimersol was removed???? Who is telling you that load of crap???? In my state we had to FIGHT with APA and they finally agreed sometime last year.

     And according to my info it shows DTaP, Hep B, Flu, HiB, Meningococcal,Tripedia. I’ll verify tomorrow if this is an old list or not.

287. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     07:22:57

     “The amount of ethylmercury to which children were exposed through vaccines prior to the 1999 announcement exceeded two safety thresholds established by the Federal Government for a closely related substance – methylmercury. While the Federal Government has established no safety threshold for ethylmercury, experts agree that the methylmercury guidelines are a good substitute. Federal health officials have conceded that the amount of thimerosal in vaccines exceeded the EPA threshold of 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of bodyweight. In fact, the amount of mercury in one dose of DTaP or Hepatitis B vaccines (25 micrograms each) exceeded this threshold many times over. Federal health officials have not conceded that this amount of thimerosal in vaccines exceeded the FDA’s more relaxed threshold of 0.4 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. In most cases, however, it clearly did. As evidence of the growing concern of the adverse effects of mercury, the FDA has recently changed its permissible dose of oral methylmercury from 0.4 microgram to 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day.”

     Jen,

     A. This is irrelevant to most childhood vaccinations after 2002.
     B. This is completely irrelevant to autism
     C. Methylmercury guidelines bear little to no relevance to ethylmercury (see Burbacher et al.)
     D. Thimerosal in vaccines pre 1999 exceeding an EPA reference dose for methylmercury in fish consumption is meaningless

     “EPA’s basis for regulating levels of methylmercury in fish is the reference dose – or RfD. The RfD is used as the standard for developing seafood consumption advice in the United States. Defined as an estimate of the highest daily dose of a chemical that the most sensitive in the population can be exposed to over a lifetime of exposure without experiencing an adverse effect, the reference dose for mercury in fish is 0.1 microgram per kilogram of body weight (bw) per day (µg/ kg-day) or 0.7 µg/kg bw/week. This regulatory standard was based on calculating the lowest dose at which a subtle subclinical effect was thought to occur (meaning the effect was not actually observed) and then building in a ten-fold safety factor.”

     http://agresearch.umd.edu/cfna.....g_dose.htm

     Let’s do a little math, shall we?

     Suppose we have a 10kg toddler who never ages, and stays at 10kg his entire life. Let’s also suppose that he is the most sensitive in the population. This means that with the ten-fold safety factor, it is expected that our toddler can safely (without adverse effect being observed) ingest 1 microgram daily every single day of his life. without the ten-fold safety factor, the number would be 10 micrograms daily every single day of his life. If that toddler lives to be 75, the reference dose is 27,375 micrograms over the lifetime (with the ten-fold safety factor), and 273,750 micrograms over the lifetime (without)

     If you understand the relatively rapid clearance of ethylmercury compared to methylmercury, you’ll quickly see how silly this vaccine dose to EPA reference dose is. If you don’t, you’ll continue to think 200 micrograms back in 1999 is significant (or even scary). In reality, 200 micrograms ethylmercury is more likely insignificant.

     I predict an appeal to “poor excretors” coming on.

288. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     07:25:45

     Chris, first of all Do’C was the first to say “DPT” and there is a DPT its diphtheria – tetanus – pertussis

     Jen, please point this out. Then go ahead and explain how access to healthcare affects mortality rates.

289. 
     David N. Brown
     September 26th, 2009
     09:40:19

     jen,
     Here’s my calculations, which I didn’t quite get right:
     The maximum amount of mercury in thimerosal vaccines is a little short of 200 micrograms. Based on the FDA recommended maximum of 2 parts (methyl)mercury per million, the theoretical safety limit for a 10 kg (22 lb) child would be 10 times that amount.

     The one caveat I will give is that the FDA figure is for the concentration of mercury that would make flesh unsafe to EAT. So, this doesn’t prove that a ca. 20 lb child would be unharmed by under 2000 micrograms, but one could serve an organism of equivalent mass for dinner without the FDA objecting.

290. 
     David N. Brown
     September 26th, 2009
     10:02:25

     Also, for anyone interested in serious professional analysis of what concentrations of heavy metals are “necessary to justify chelation, read this paper:
     Succimer Chelation Improves Learning, Attention, and Arousal Regulation in Lead-Exposed Rats but Produces Lasting Cognitive Impairment in the Absence of Lead Exposure
     Diane E. Stangle, Donald R. Smith, Stephane A. Beaudin, Myla S. Strawderman, David A. Levitsky, and Barbara J. Strupp

291. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 26th, 2009
     14:15:30

     Reading through jen’s and Christel’s posts is like wading through mud. The logic jumps from point to point and it’s often hard to follow.

     I just don’t have the time to argue too much anymore, but I would like to ask the three anti-vax commentators:

     1. Do you think the Big ListTM is shocking or not?

     2. Do you think that a parent should be allowed to “treat” their child with absolutely anything, even untested, synthetic organic chemicals, dozens of IVs, endoscopy, many blood draws, etc? Do you people have a limit that you think is too much “treatment” or are you willing to let a mother do anything because, after all, she is the mother? And because autism has wrecked her dreams, she’s entitled to do anything at all to “get her dreams back”?

     3. Do you realize that autism is a developmental delay, not a developmental brick wall? Do you realize that children with autism do grow, develop and “get better” with age? Do you realize that this happens if the child is treated with love and respect and nurturing care, and that every developmental leap does not need to be ascribed to biomedical treatment X?

     Finally, Christel, it’s SEIZURES (seizures) NOT seizers. The word has a U in it. Forgive me for being insulting, but every time you misspell this word (which describes a medical condition that your own child has), I picture you with less than a full set of teeth. You don’t enhance your credibility when you can’t spell.

     Whew! That felt good. I’ve been wanting to say that for YEARS!

292. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     14:47:12

     Guest Blogger…

     1. Do you think the Big ListTM is shocking or not?

     NO

     2. Do you think that a parent should be allowed to “treat”

     Parents do their own endoscopy’s??? Please show me the proof that parents go to such extreme lengths to “get their dreams back”? Using one of many posts is not convincing to me. And its a poor generalization. Show proof that all parents “treat” their child without the help of MD’s?

     3. Do you realize that autism is a developmental delay, not a developmental brick wall?

     If it were just a delay and nothing more then why are parents successful in biomed treatment?

     I think if there are parents out there stating “hey, my kid got better doing this…” and my child was Autistic or I was Autistic I’d try some or all of the things mentioned. Depending on the treatments would depend on the need for a doctor, you don’t need a doctor for just diet change, etc.

293. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     15:30:05

     David N. Brown, as Dr. Haley states in this video is that what they have found is the mix of thimersol with antibiotics enhances the toxicity. He also states thimersol is a “immune system surpressor”.

     http://video.google.com/videop.....d%20Haley#

294. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     15:31:27

     Do’C, I apologize…it was me who first wrote “DPT”. It was getting late and my eyes were crossing.

295. 
     Kwombles
     September 26th, 2009
     15:36:16

     Jen,

     That you don’t think that list of treatments to include nicotine patches is wrong says everything reasonable people need to know about where you stand. Seriously, vaccines are bad, but all that other crap is okay. Glad to know where you stand. You’ll understand if we move as far away from where you stand as possible. Wow. But you go on and on about organic and diet, but all that crap on that list is okay by you.

     Guest Blogger didn’t say the parents were doing the enodoscopy. And you know that. You seem to be incapable of directly addressing most questions placed to you. I was actually surprised to see a direct answer to number 1.

     As to your answer to number 3, it reveals your complete lack of comprehension. Guest Blogger said delay, not brick wall. Autistic children improve with time. And funfamentally, you reveal here your complete lack of understanding of the scientific process. You rely on testimony. Not evidence. Testimony. Again, you’ll certainly understand as we step as far away from you as possible.

     You’ve revealed a complete lack of understanding regarding scientific evidence, autism, medicine in general, and what constitutes abusive behavior. In one post. Wow. You go right ahead and listen to testimonials and think that’s evidence. And I’ll think you’re so far down the woo-trail that you wouldn’t know sound science if it walked up to you and calmly, reasonably and painstakingly explained itself to you. Oh wait, been there, done that.

296. 
     Kwombles
     September 26th, 2009
     15:40:12

     Oh, Jen!

     Dr. Haley. Well, there you go. Explains so much. And further reinforces my last post. Double wow.

297. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     15:47:07

     I ask you all did you ever think it was more then just thimersol? Have you ever considered it was a combo of things in the vaccines paired up with the individual’s gene’s?

     I ask again, if not vaccines or thimersol then what?? What is your hypothesis?? Why do you suppose the rate is climbing at crazy rates…currently 1 in 38 boys and 1 in 68 girls?? So, you believe it to be just a coincidence that the amount of vaccines administered by age 15months and the rate of Autism are going up at the same time?

     Maybe your are right, maybe its wrong to put all the blame on thimersol when in reality it could be the viruses, other ingredients, or a combo of all??? For example, maybe the blame is being put on MMR not because of thimersol but should be the viruses that need further investigation. For example, In 1994 they increased the amount of viruses (practically overnight) from some 12,000 to 24,000.

298. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     15:57:45

     KW, please tell me why do you suppose Autism rates are climbing? What do you think is going on?

     I apologize, I didn’t notice any nicotine patches in that list.

     KW, again, maybe I misunderstood but Guest Blogger says this…
     “Do you think that a parent should be allowed to “treat” their child with absolutely anything, even untested, synthetic organic chemicals, dozens of IVs, endoscopy, many blood draws, etc?”

     He brought up endoscopy’s which confused me too as to why it was mentioned.

     “Autistic children improve with time.” I’m not discounting this but where is the proof of this? What is your definition of “improve”. Does that definition vary between person to person?

     Yes, I do listen to testimonials. I keep an open mind. Anything is possible. Maybe if you got your head out of your ass and removed the blinders maybe you could see that too. I have no problem reading all your scientific data and “evidence”. I will keep an open mind. But common sense will always come into play.

299. 
     KWombles
     September 26th, 2009
     16:12:47

     Anything is possible?

     Jen, if nothing else, you have given me something to chuckle about, so thank you, sincerely. If I get my head out MY ass. Oh, man, that’s good. Anything’s possible. Yup, like the rates of autism not actually skyrocketing, like the number of autistic adults also being 1 in a 100 as it is in kids. Wow. Anything’s possible, but somehow magically testimonials have more weight than scientific evidence with you. But it’s my head that’s up my ass. Good to know.

300. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     16:14:11

     And what’s going on in India? If vaccines are the reason these diseases are eradicated then why can’t India get rid of Polio???

301. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     16:16:47

     So, according to you the rates are not climbing? So, did the rates ever climb according to you? If so, what is your reason behind why?

302. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     16:37:38

     And KW there is a TON of scientific evidence out there on the vaccine ineffectiveness and harmful ingredients you just choose not to believe.

     Bet you can’t wait and are sooo excited to get the Squalene-filled flu jabs for you and your family!!

     http://www.without-consent.com.....sumoto.pdf

     It doesn’t matter what scientific data is set forth you will always discount the who’s and what’s cause your head is up your…

303. 
     KWombles
     September 26th, 2009
     16:56:37

     Jen,

     I’m just devestated we’re not going to end up friends after all of this. Your sense of moral superiority and sense of certainty are darn near awe-inspiring. You, again, listen to woo and charlatans and mistake that for science and hold it with absolute conviction. Go right ahead and rely on testimonials over science. Go right ahead and think that vaccines are bad and that my head is up my ass. Won’t hurt my feelings a bit. Did you think it would? I’ve already weighted your words the level of importance they should have. Had you presented a single bit of scientific evidence rather than relying on discredited scientists and the parotting back of woo from organizations like GR, well, perhaps there could have been reasoned debate.

304. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 26th, 2009
     17:10:00

     jen, I know it is an article of faith with you that the autism rate is climbing, skyrocketing, through the roof. And that means that you must seek out a cause.

     I understand that. I used to believe it was true too. But it’s not. Have you read the recent study that has shown that 1 in 100 adults in the UK are on the spectrum? There’s also tons of other evidence out there that shows that when you actually LOOK for ASD in adults, you find a lot of it. The problem is that most adults were born before the concept of ASD even existed. They didn’t get a diagnosis, because it didn’t exist when they were 3.

     And confusing this is that you would like us to show you only the most severe cases of ASD, (poop smearing etc) and you want adults with severe ASD to look like children with severe ASD. You fail to accept that ASD is a spectrum. Even “Saul” is quite high functioning, for example – he speaks, he has hyperlexia, he interacts with his teachers (even at age 5).

     Well, I have news for you. People with ASD progress and grow, and change. If you will only accept that poop-smearing, head-banging (or whatever your current horror story to elicit sympathy is) adults are on the spectrum, then you must also accept that the rate of ASD is nowhere near 1 in 100 for children either.

     If you manage to accept the idea that there is no epidemic, then you can drop your frantic search for a cause. You could try it – it’s very liberating, releases you from the urge to experiment on your child, and allows you to actually spend quality time with him/her. You may just find that approach results in better progress than you ever imagined. It certainly has for me.

305. 
     Kwombles
     September 26th, 2009
     17:21:52

     Guest Blogger,

     Actually, according to Jen, she doesn’t have a child on the spectrum. Nor does it appear that she is even arguing her child is vaccine damaged. She has a child with food sensitivities. That’s it; she has a child who needs a restricted diet. So, I find her paranoia and need to villify actual parents of children on the spectrum who disagree with her on vaccination and the need to wallow in woo interesting, to say the least. Perhaps she could explain why she is so invested in this conversation? Oh, I know, save the world and all, I’m sure, from big bad vaccines and support the parents who want to use untested, dangerous treatments on their children to cure them, because after all, they heard somebody say it worked.

306. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     17:51:21

     Guest Blogger, KW spelled devestated (devastated) wrong! Aren’t you going to attack him/her as you did to CK???

     KW you are if there were such a degree in the twisting of words by golly you would hold the highest And how can we debate if you refuse to present any evidence or data on your behalf?? Maybe you discount all of my info shared here but at least I’ve presented something. You’ve dodged and/or ignored all questions, twisted words, and refuse to show any data. I must say your buddy’s put up a good fight and have been able to provide some info behind their why’s and how’s but your, like I stated earlier, bark is way worse then your bite. And until you can fight for yourself & bring something to the table you wouldn’t be able to sell me on anything.

     Guest Blogger, interesting info about how the rates are misconstrued. I’m not opposed to that info, I feel that happens a lot…numbers are misconstrued often in studies. Can you please provide those studies that point out Autism is not an epidemic. I’m interested in looking into that further.

307. 
     jen
     September 26th, 2009
     17:56:18

     KW said: “Actually, according to Jen, she doesn’t have a child on the spectrum. Nor does it appear that she is even arguing her child is vaccine damaged. She has a child with food sensitivities. That’s it; she has a child who needs a restricted diet.”

     Again, thanks for twisting of my words and assuming…two things you are awesome at! You are correct my child is not on the spectrum. HOWEVER, he was on his way until I stopped the vaccinations. And I’ve never said he was or he wasn’t vaccine damaged. He does have food sensitivities and yeast issues, yes. And FYI, yes, I do believe his issues are because of vaccines.

308. 
     KWombles
     September 26th, 2009
     18:10:57

     Oh, crap, Jen, you wrote buddy’s and then used their. Oh noes.

     I haven’t dodged any questions, although you have, and you have contradicted yourself in multiple places. And since there is absolutely no scientific evidence that vaccines can lead to autism nor food sensitivities, well, again, you’ll just have to forgive me for not giving your testimonial the weight you think it accords. And for not feeling the need to give into your demands to provide evidence that you are wrong. Firstly, that evidence is discussed on LBRB in multiple posts, so you could have a look around since you are so new to it. Secondly, you have shown a complete disdain for anything that contradicts your worldview.

     But it’s lovely to see you have cast yourself as the person who saved her child from autism’s clutches. Wow. I had no idea it was a gradual descent into autism caused by multiple vaccinations. I thought, based on your buddies (used that right, didn’t I?), it was a sudden regression into it. I stand corrected. You’re not sure what it is about vaccines that does it, but it’s something and it’s over time. Gotcha.

     Hey, you know it’s not my first time to be called a word twister. Wow, that really hurts my psyche.

     I can’t tell you how devastated (there, happy?) I am that we’re not going to be best buds over this. Really. Weeping into the keyboard as I type. :-) I wonder if one of the two of us is a bit more intensely affected by this “dialogue” than the other (ooh, Jake from AoA’s right, you can signal your disagreement with a term by putting into quotes!)?

309. 
     KWombles
     September 26th, 2009
     18:16:14

     Seriously, you can’t be on your way to being on the spectrum. You can be on your way to making an ass of yourself, though.

     You’ve made plenty of assumptions in your posts; people do that. Usually it is done on the basis of the text provided. You stated your child wasn’t on the spectrum. I dismissed your assertion that the child was on the way to being on the spectrum because it was bunk. You didn’t claim the child was vaccine damaged, although I suppose I could have assumed based on your ridiculous claim that vaccines are bad that you had some axe to grind.

     And it would be easier to make what you might consider more accurate assumptions if you were consistent in your claims.

310. 
     David N. Brown
     September 26th, 2009
     18:23:58

     Just figured out, my calculation (which I hadn’t posted anywhere else before) is in error. By the FDA standard, it would take 1000 micrograms/kg for flesh to become toxic. So, for that to occur with a 10 kg organism, it would have to absorb 10,000 micrograms of mercury, or more than fifty times the amount that ever was in vaccines.
     My bad.

311. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 26th, 2009
     19:40:24

     jen asked for papers showing a lack of epidemic. Well, the most recent is described at this blog. Just change the 3144 in the URL is the present post to 3203

     That post actually links to the study, so you can read the original study, not just someone’s interpretation of it.

     Or you can try these articles:

     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513984

     http://www.autcom.org/pdf/Epidemic.pdf

     Actually, there’s a lot more. Just have a look at pubmed.gov and search for “autism epidemiology”

312. 
     Chris
     September 26th, 2009
     19:43:11

     jen:
     

     And what’s going on in India? If vaccines are the reason these diseases are eradicated then why can’t India get rid of Polio???

     Big on changing the subject? Also, there is no comparison between the USA and India. My brother recently lived a couple of years there, and level of public health competency there pales in comparison to what you are used to in the USA. My brother lived in a nice house in a middle class neighborhood, and even then they had a distiller in the kitchen to get potable water (water is only available a couple hours of day, so those with money have pumps to pull water to store, the pump also pulls water from the sewage pipes).

     Because of the cost, WHO is using the oral polio vaccine. Do to the general lack of sanitation the kids all seem to have diarrhea, so the vaccine cannot stay in the gut long enough to give immunity.

     It is one virologist’s opinion that WHO should switch to IPV, but that is much more expensive. I heard this on the This Week in Virology podcast (I don’t remember which particular week, but one of those might have it).

     Now would you be so kind as to tell me what the relative risks are between the MMR vaccine and actually getting measles, mumps and rubella? Please include the journal, title, date and authors of the paper used to support your conclusion. Thank you.

     I would also like to know what paper has been published that has replicated Wakefield’s dozen case studies. Thank you.

313. 
     David N. Brown
     September 26th, 2009
     20:47:58

     “(Boyd Haley) also states thimersol is a `immune system surpressor’.”

     I’m inclined to dismiss this at face value. After its mercury content, the most heavily-criticized aspect of thimerosal has been the allergic reactions it produces. (In my opinion, this point has been made strongly enough to justify removing thimerosal from use, independent of controversial claims about ethylmercury.) An allergen is, of course, the opposite of an immune system suppressor.
     I must say that christel, jen, et al appear to have read a great deal of literature, probably mostly “anti-vax”“, but failed to get a “general” understanding of the relevant fields or to apply the skills of data analysis and synthesis.

314. 
     Do'C
     September 26th, 2009
     20:53:50

     Do’C, don’t know about Generation Rescue. As far as your first comment: “tell us about the impact of access to healthcare on mortality across the various U.S. demographics. Feel free to explain any relevance to autism whatsoever too.”

     First of all I can not tell you the impact of access because not much of any data exists. If you know, please do share. “Traditional measures and data sources on children’s access to health care are limited. Not all traditional measures of mainstream health care (e.g., care provided in physicians’ offices, hospitals, and emergency departments) are tailored to children’s health care needs. Moreover, children sometimes get needed services outside the mainstream health care system, such as in schools, public specialty clinics, and from non-physician subspecialists. Mainstream efforts to collect data on children’s health care rarely collect information about these sources of health care. As a result, little is known about how and where many children obtain many health services and about the extent to which there may be disparities among children.”

     I do know that access to healthcare for those who have Autism isn’t too good or as good as it should. And have not proof if the two are correlated.

     Jen, you really should read the entire report from which you picked the above quote.

     http://www.ahrq.gov/qual/nhdr0.....riorit.htm

     But, that would be just one baby step for you.

     Your claim that not much of any data exists is pure nonsense. Lots of data exists – making sense of it is a challenge though. It wouldn’t surprise me if you lack the willingness, ability, or time, to delve any deeper. Here are some additional starting point sources, in case you’re ever inclined to do some additional reading on the subject.

     http://www.cdc.gov/nchs
     http://mchlibrary.info/Knowled.....fmort.html
     http://pubmed.gov
     http://www.hhs.gov
     http://www.nichd.nih.gov

     Try not to forget that access to health care is not just child access to health care. Look in to access to prenatal care (and low birth weight too).

     ...not that child mortality has anything to do with autism or that high vaccine coverage and scope has anything other than an inverse relationship with childhood mortality in the real world.

     Can you tell me, if not the mercury then what? What is your hypothesis as to why the rates continue to climb?

     Wow, ignorance is bliss, isn’t it Jen.

     If we assume, for the sake of argument, that your completely unfounded assertion of an ill-defined “the rates” continue to climb, has one iota of merit, you’ll be able to answer a very simple question:

     If thimerosal had anything to do with autism, do the toxicokinetics for elemental mercury, ethylmercury, and methylmercury, match up so that corresponding reductions (thimerosal post 2002) and any claimed increases produce near linear growth[1] in the 3-5 year old autism caseload cohort in California over the past 10-12 years?

     1 http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/c.....YOA70046F3

315. 
     NightStorm
     September 27th, 2009
     04:30:06

     I read a good portion of this and to be honest most of this seriously

     TL;DR

     I can explain the whole thread in two sentances. “UR RONG, MARY DID WHUT’S BEST 4 HUR SON” “NO U, MARY HURT HUR SON!”

     “NO U
     “NO U!”

     Lather, Rinse and Repeat.
     Oh don’t get me started on the self-dx guy who popped in. Lol ok man.

316. 
     Chris
     September 27th, 2009
     05:01:15

     Aw, shucks… you missed the part where I kept asking the same question, and not really getting a good answer! I asked lots of questions, and did not get much in the way of answers (and I did answer at least one).

     Though I am curious if Christel can answer this question I posed up thread:
     

     I am willing to bet you will not even bother to read this study: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g…..id=3923849 (tell me the title, date, authors and what it says as evidence that you bothered to read it)

317. 
     Chris
     September 27th, 2009
     05:03:10

     (my apologies if this shows up twice due to a cut and paste error, I requested a delete)

     Aw, shucks… you missed the part where I kept asking the same question, and not really getting a good answer! I asked lots of questions, and did not get much in the way of answers (and I did answer at least one).

     Though I am curious if Christel can answer this question I posed up thread:
     

     I am willing to bet you will not even bother to read this study: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g.....id=3923849 (tell me the title, date, authors and what it says as evidence that you bothered to read it)

318. 
     Kev
     September 27th, 2009
     08:31:53

     Nightstorm – the time for you to add substantive content is right now. Otherwise your comment is deleted and you get blocked m’kay funny guy?

319. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     09:10:17

     Do’C…you quoted me…” Can you tell me, if not the mercury then what? What is your hypothesis as to why the rates continue to climb?

     And in response said…
     “Wow, ignorance is bliss, isn’t it Jen.”

     I was asking an honest question and wasn’t trying to be sarcastic.

     I have serious questions, and you seem to all be in the know, please explain to me the following…

     1. You’ve made it very clear you believe the cause of Autism is not associated with thimerosal via vaccines. But what do you suppose the climb in the Autism rates are associated with, environment, genetics only, other ingredients in vaccines, etc? I understand you feel it is not an epidemic but do you agree its been the #’s have been “climbing” over the years? I think the studies have debunked the genetic claim but I’m sure you provide with me some study from the government proving otherwise.

     2. Even though thimerosal is still an ingredient in many vaccines, what is/was the reasoning behind, after all the years of using thimerosal, to remove and replace so quickly?

     3. And what was it replaced with…Aluminum. Do you feel there is enough evidence via studies that prove Aluminum is safe for all who get jabbed?

     3. As Chris stated many times he feels the MMR vaccine prevents a very large number of deaths and thus is a necessary vaccine. What about (and this question is directed to all who wish to answer) about the necessity of the Hep B vaccine? Prevnar? Chic Pox? I’m sure there are a few others added to the list that I, along with many, question whether or not the vaccines are really necessary.

     4. What are your thoughts on batches of vaccines that have contamination issues and how that may effect their clients?

     5. Do any feel there is any level of corruption either with the government (FDA & CDC) and/or pharmaceutical companies? If so, do you think that would cause concern with data and numbers set forth?

320. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     09:49:57

     6. You guys are big into the numbers game…explain to me how provoking an un-natural immune response to get 70-90% immunity is better then having a natural immune response to get 100% immunity?

     7. Adding to the number 6 question, I view vaccines keeping the big picture in mind…looking at each part to see the whole. From my logic, I don’t see the benefit of injecting man-made and other ingredients, which have no business being injected into the body, along with a virus no one knows for sure that person will ever be exposed to to get 70-90% immunity. It just doesn’t make sense. I also think about how, in the instance we were to contract an illness, we will have 100% immunity and that particular person will never get again. I also think about mother’s being able to pass those immunities onto her child.

     8. Adding to number 7, its obvious from earlier posts you don’t believe our kids today are being poisoned in the name of keeping them healthy. But we really only discussed Autism. Do you feel side effects like Asthma, ear infections, seizures, GB syndrome, seasonal & food allergies are a or can be a direct consequence of vaccines? If so, are you ok with children in masses having these issues over the possibility of contracting 1 or 2 of the illnesses the vaccines are to prevent?

     9. Adding to that…Chris you posted a link, a link with .gov, which whatever but call me crazy or a conspiracy theorist but I don’t have much faith in our government and tend not to trust much of their data. Either way, I read thru the article and I’m not sure what you are expecting me to get out of something that was done in ‘83 and used estimated data??

     10. Going back to #5, it just popped into my head sorry, I think about smoking alot when I think about vaccines. I think about how the tobacco industry kept the link between smoking and cancer out of public view for a very long time. I think about the fact government knew but did nothing. I think about all the commercials and ad’s…the doctors who said on their print ad “Camel is the brand they smoke”. I think about how before we all knew the hidden dangers smoking was the thing to do. All the mother’s who smoked while pregnant. So sad. Anyway, its not a question but more of an example for those who find it odd anti-vaxxers have an issue with big pharma and government. History shows us how money can change the skew on things.

     11. So back to questions, as we all know the reason for the added adjuvants are to stimulate an immune response. But do you feel its the right immune response…Th2? How do you feel about the body repeatedly producing a Th2 response?

     I thought this was an interesting article in regards to the CDC making the 1 in 100 change…
     http://www.examiner.com/examin.....S-children

     This doesn’t have anything to do with my questions but thought it was interesting…the last few paragraghs are very interesting.
     http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09......html?_r=1

321. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     10:00:22

     12. I don’t want to assume so I will ask…is it safe to state no one here believes a parent who claims their child is doing better via biomed or diet treatments is telling the truth? Because why, the research says its not possible?

     13. Every link or data presented by me, CK or PD has been totally disregarded and laughed at…what makes your data so special? Is it because the studies are conducted by governmental employees? I’m not being sarcastic either, I’m really trying to understand why you have so much regard for the info you presented but no one elses?

322. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     10:03:44

     14. adding to number 13…is there any doctor, scientist, scientific research, or agency that doesn’t agree with your views or info you’ve collected (anti-vaxxers as you call them) whom you do respect or like?

323. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     10:15:43

     15. Assuming you all think Autism is inherent issue how is it possible, not only do the numbers climb, the numbers are different throughout the states?

     http://www.autism-conferences.com/services.html

324. 
     Holly
     September 27th, 2009
     13:13:23

     Guest Blogger,

     You mention that GFCF is promoted as a cure. I have not personally met any parent who believes that is the case.

     Our personal experience with the GFCF diet is that it has helped my son to feel better. When he feels better, he gets more out of his therapies (40 hours a week of ABA, speech and OT at a truly wonderful school). I think that’s true of any child.

     The multiple allergy tests we have had done (at Children’s) do not show ANY food allergies. And yet my son shows allergic symptoms when given milk or products containing milk. Sure, we considered the lactose intolerance angle. However, NONE of our doctors think that to be the case. They all say that true lactose intolerance is very rare. My very wise developmental ped frequently tells us, “there is so much that we can’t explain yet…I’m learning from the parents of our kids.” Not to say she’s dismissing the mainstream medical truths – but that she appreciates that we, as parents, might be more aware of our children’s true medical conditions than we’ve previously been given credit for.

     If our doctors can appreciate our intervenions, why in the world should you care to dispute it?

325. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     15:22:14

     Do’C you said…”Your claim that not much of any data exists is pure nonsense. Lots of data exists – making sense of it is a challenge though.”

     That is what I was trying to convey…there is no concrete data that exists which show causal relationships between all the very, very different variables.

326. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     16:16:30

     Holly, you are so very right! And something this group just isn’t understanding…parents who choose alternative types of healthcare (diet, biomed, supplements, vitamins) have done so because they feel failed by mainstream. They’ve played by all mainstreams rules, got their children vaccinated, took all the allergy tests, etc and were told “oh, sorry, nothing you can do”. Parents who catch wind there may be hope are shot down people like this group because no research proves it all to be true. Every single one of my son’s allergy tests are negative. Yet, when I give him gluten, casein, soy, rice, oats, corn, and all phenol/sal foods he acts like a monster, can’t sleep thru the night, etc. So, who do I listen to? My doctor telling me it is what it is or MY research & experience that proves otherwise?

     And for those parents out there that are successful with diet and/or biomed and are so happy they chose to do something rather then nothing…what is your explanation…they are hallucinating?

327. 
     Kwombles
     September 27th, 2009
     16:34:24

     Holly, you are factually incorrect regarding lactose intolerance.

     Please see http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/.....es-20a.htm

328. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     17:32:12

     Chris, explain this to me, the last sentence…
     “The median age of the 13 persons who died was 2 years (range: 4 months-18 years); seven persons who died were unvaccinated, and six were reported to have received one dose of measles vaccine.”

     I would assume those who died with only one dose of the vaccine were not at the age yet to receive the second dose.

     But, my question is…what were the parents who vaccinated their children thinking…”but my child was vaccinated??”

     My point is I think vaccines give parents a false sense of security. And in many outbreaks I’ve read over 90% of the persons who contracted the measles were vaccinated.

329. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 27th, 2009
     17:48:43

     Holly,

     You may not have met one parent who believes GFCF to be a cure for autism, but the fact is that Karen Seroussi’s book, often recommended to parents, makes it clear that she believes her child was cured by the diet.

     I have no serious objections to the GFCF diet, as long as it is done carefully from a nutritional point of view, and there is appropriate calcium supplementation.

     I also have absolutely no quarrel with your story that your child feels better on the diet. I think that’s very plausible, and not only from an allergy/lactose intolerance point of view. I’m sure that kids on the diet eat less junk food than those not on the diet. Less additives, trans fats, artificial colors, etc.

     What I don’t like about the diet is that if it doesn’t work for a child, the parent is made to feel guilty because they aren’t being careful enough. No separate toaster, non GFCF play-doh, bandaids, shampoo. Raising a child with special needs is tough enough, the parents don’t need this kind of additional stress or guilt trip if the diet isn’t working out.

330. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 27th, 2009
     18:20:12

     jen, you asked your numbered questions of Do’C, but I’ll give you my answers.

     1. Not only is there no clear evidence for an epidemic, the scientific consensus is that the true rate is not rising at all, or if it is, only be a very small amount. That small amount could be explained by many things, such as parents having their kids at older ages. Older parents are a known risk factor for autism.

     It’s certainly not been debunked that genetics are a cause of autism. More and more genetic associations with autism are found every year. It’s just that it’s a complex disorder with many causes, so it’s taking a while to find them all. For an example of a recent study see:

     http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=2244

     2. The decision to remove thiomersal is discussed very thoroughly in the book “Autism’s False Prophets”. I’d recommend you read it. It was not made only on a scientific basis. Mercury was not replaced with aluminum. Aluminum was always there. They have different functions – aluminum is an adjuvant, it makes the vaccine work better, and thiomersal was a preservative.

     3. HepB vaccination prevents a serious illness. It has been thoroughly tested and has a good safety record. Chicken pox can also be serious (of course not as serious as measles), and the scientific consensus is that it is worthwhile.

     4. Contamination can be serious. But what evidence do you have that it happens frequently?

     5. No.

     6. The 100% immunity comes at a cost – deaths and disabilities.

331. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 27th, 2009
     18:23:34

     jen, you should read this site. I know it’s a government site, but it’s Canadian, and not the evil US government ;)

     http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/.....gs-eng.php

332. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 27th, 2009
     18:25:14

     And from the site, explaining the reason why vaccinated kids appear to get disease in higher numbers:

     2. The majority of people getting disease have been fully immunized.

     This is another argument frequently found in anti-vaccine literature – the implication being that this proves vaccines are not effective. In fact it is true that in outbreaks occurring in highly vaccinated populations, the cases who were immunized often outnumber those who were not – even with vaccines such as measles, which we know to be about 90% to 95% effective in one dose.

     This apparent paradox is explained by two factors. First, no vaccine is 100% effective. To make vaccines safer than the disease, the bacteria or virus is killed or weakened (attenuated). For reasons related to the individual, not all persons vaccinated will develop immunity. Most routine childhood vaccines have efficacy in the 85-90% range. Therefore, over the years there is a buildup of susceptible individuals (each year contributing 10% -15% of its cohort). Second, in a country like Canada with high immunization coverage, people who have been vaccinated vastly outnumber those who have not.

     How these two factors work together to result in outbreaks where the majority of cases have been vaccinated can be more easily understood by looking at a hypothetical example:

     In a high school of 1,000 students, none has ever had measles. All but 30 of the students have had their dose of measles vaccine, and so are considered vaccinated. However, among these 970, there would be about 97 who are not protected by the vaccine. When the student body is exposed to measles, every susceptible student becomes infected because measles is highly contagious. The 30 unvaccinated students will be infected, of course. But of the 970 who have been vaccinated, we would expect the 97 who are not protected to fall ill. Therefore 97/127, or about 76% of the cases are fully vaccinated.

     As you can see, this doesn’t prove the vaccine didn’t work – only that most of the children in the class had been vaccinated, so the vaccine failures outnumbered the unvaccinated susceptibles. Looking at it another way, 100% of the children who were not vaccinated got measles, compared with only 10% of those who were. Measles vaccine protected most of the class; if nobody in the class had been vaccinated, there would have been 1,000 cases of measles. In this example, the vaccine was in fact 90% effective in preventing measles.

333. 
     Chris
     September 27th, 2009
     18:30:14

     jen, I see you do not understand that vaccination is not 100% effective, especially when there is only dose. That is the point of herd immunity.

     The point of the older paper was to show you that the vaccine is not a new one, and that it had been tested. Now tell me what are the conclusions?

     You would have to ask the parents what they think. Read this to find out how some parents feel.

     Cut and pasted from another blog I posted this on… Some herd immunity arithmetic:

     Take 1000 people (ignoring the infants under 2 months who cannot be vaccinated, or babies under a year who can only be partially vaccinated), if 5% refuse vaccines then the numbers are:

     950 vaccinated persons (assuming full schedule)
     50 unvaccinated persons

     The pertussis vaccine is actually only 80% effective at worse, so the numbers are:

     760 protected persons
     190 vaccinated but vulnerable persons
     50 unvaccinated persons

     There is an outbreak and it gets spread to 20% of the population, then:

     760 protected persons without pertussis

     38 vaccinated persons get pertussis
     152 vaccinated person who may still get pertussis

     10 unvaccinated persons get pertussis
     40 unvaccinated persons who may still get pertussis.

     This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!

     If you have issues with the government of the United States of America having a public health policy, and employees who are involved with public health issues that actually write papers: You are perfectly welcome to go find somewhere else to live. I have lived overseas, and I can think of some lovely places that would welcome your kind of thinking. Of course, none of them have any form of socialized medicine, or reliable public utilities.

     Now could you kindly tell me the relative risks of the MMR vaccine versus getting the actual diseases of measles, mumps and rubella (you will notice there are tables in that paper showing some answers)? If you come to a conclusion that differs from the paper I have provided (and there are updated ones, look up at the several lists I have provided) please provide the journal, title, date and authors to show your work. News articles do not count.

334. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 27th, 2009
     18:41:00

     Holly,

     I wrote a comment about the GFCF diet, and it seems to have disappeared. Trying again:

     The fact is that Karen Seroussi’s book is often recommended to parents, and that book says her kid was cured by the diet.

     I have no objection to the diet, as long as the child is getting appropriate nutrition, particularly calcium supplements.

     I also do believe you when you say that your child is better on the diet. Besides the possibility of allergies, children on the diet probably eat less junk food, less dyes and artificial additives, less trans fats and probably more fruits and vegetables than they did before. That’s got to be healthier.

     My problem with the diet is that if it doesn’t work, people are not supposed to give up. They are told that it’s because they aren’t being careful enough, they don’t have separate toasters, GFCF play-doh or bandaids. Or they should be removing even more foods. It’s stressful enough raising a child with a disability, the parents don’t need additional unnecessary stress and guilt-trips.

     Oh, and I don’t have objections to vitamin and mineral supplements given at the RDA level. My family all takes Vitamin D and fish oil supplements.

335. 
     Sullivan
     September 27th, 2009
     18:43:34

     I wrote a comment about the GFCF diet, and it seems to have disappeared. Trying again:

     I’ve had a number of good comments in the spam trap lately. Sorry if it is taking time to break them loose, or if any get accidentally deleted.

336. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     19:08:37

     Guest Blogger & Chris…when a perfectly healthy individual is given viruses that cause illness, the individual is going to manifest illness-related symptoms. This healthy individual is asked to maintain a low-level stimulation of illness. As long as you are in a low level state of illness you are not in a high level state of health. Therefore, vaccines provide protection by keeping the body in a diseased state of health. Often the person will not manifest the illness it is vaccinated for, at least not in its acute form, but it will manifest in other conditions. Usually these conditions are inherited weaknesses. Chronic symptoms look very much like the acute illnesses but they are often not life-threatening unless allowed to continue for years and years.

337. 
     Chris
     September 27th, 2009
     19:21:45

     Please provide the documentation to support your statements. Unless properly referenced we are going to assume you just made it up.

338. 
     Chris
     September 27th, 2009
     21:25:46

     jen, you might find this book helpful.

     By the way, this is a pretty good primer on immunity and vaccines (oh, and yes, it has the evil .gov in it… oooh, scary!):
     http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pu.....rinvac.pdf

     Here is another overview of vaccines and autism, with the nicer and kinder “.org”:
     http://sciencebasedmedicine.or.....nd-autism/

339. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     21:52:33

     Chris, I’ll get to that in a bit first but…

     I know you don’t agree with allowing the body to work as is, unassisted by drugs but I know you would agree and understand the body has incredible capacity to provide protection against all sorts of invaders (after-all that is your claim to fame in regards to our body being able to handle vaccines)...

     But what about having the best of both worlds? What do any of you think about the possibly of an alternative to vaccines? Lets break it down…if our approach to protection is from the standpoint of supporting the body in doing its job, which it already knows how to do, we are working at a more fundamental level. If we support the energy and physical systems of the body we will support the immune system, not overload it. Clean hygiene, good nutrition, clean water, plenty of exercise, vitamins like C, zinc, etc – constitutional treatments (preferably homeopathic). I know, I know, your governmental data provided proves good hygiene and nutrition have nothing to do with the decline of diseases but others studies contradict that information so, who’s telling the truth????

     But anyway, not to get off point, have you ever considered the use of isopathy (or nosodes). Has that ever crossed anyone’s mind? I think all that verbiage above sounds just too darn simplistic (and doesn’t have the ring of the ching$$ching).

340. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     22:04:16

     And FYI Chris, I love where I live! I love America! No where else I’d rather live! Please don’t insult me by assuming otherwise. Just because I can see, with my own two eyes, and choose not to live in denial, that there is corruption going on within my governmental system as well as pharmaceutical companies all over the world doesn’t mean I love my America any less! In fact, its the love I have for America and its people that I continuously dig deeper!!

341. 
     jen
     September 27th, 2009
     22:08:59

     Chris said: “oh, and yes, it has the evil .gov in it… oooh, scary!”

     Not opposed, not scared…just provide me with some variety!! That’s all I’m putting down, ya dig??

342. 
     Curtis E. Flush
     September 27th, 2009
     23:04:53

     “But what about having the best of both worlds? What do any of you think about the possibly of an alternative to vaccines? Lets break it down…if our approach to protection is from the standpoint of supporting the body in doing its job, which it already knows how to do, we are working at a more fundamental level.”

     The stoopid is strong with this one. Jen, really? Are you so clueless that you think a vaccine like the MMR simply “does what the body already knows how to do”? Here’s a hint, the body does not convert the Measles, Mumps, and Rubella antigens into attenuated viruses which elicit an immune response and offer protection (direct and indirect via herd immunity) for many, without contracting the disease itself (and subsequently adding to the risk of illness, complication, mental retardation, mortality, etc.).

     Jeebus, take a 10th grade biology class or something.

     “If we support the energy and physical systems of the body we will support the immune system, not overload it. Clean hygiene, good nutrition, clean water, plenty of exercise, vitamins like C, zinc, etc – constitutional treatments (preferably homeopathic).”

     Oh lord, magic water!

     “But anyway, not to get off point, have you ever considered the use of isopathy (or nosodes). Has that ever crossed anyone’s mind?”

     And wowee, magic saliva, pus, urine, blood, or diseased tissue!

     Somebody buy Jen a drink, either she’s super funny, or she really got a raw deal with her education.

343. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     00:15:17

     CEF said…”the body does not convert the Measles, Mumps, and Rubella antigens into attenuated viruses which elicit an immune response and offer protection (direct and indirect via herd immunity) for many, without contracting the disease itself (and subsequently adding to the risk of illness, complication, mental retardation, mortality, etc.).”

     Noooo, really???

     The primary intention of the vaccine is to produce a stimulation to the cellular immune system, via the production of antibodies. Antibodies attach onto the virus and render it inactive and harmless. Its thru this stimulation and resultant production of antibodies that the body is now prepared for a possible ‘attack’ by ‘foreign invaders’ later down the line. These invaders are typically known as bacteria or viruses. This immunity will later provide protection without having to go through the disease itself…I get it, thanks!

     It seems you all are willing to go to such great lengths to dismiss nature and reward some guys in white coats who claim they can solve it all. Among the zillion things I have a problem with in regards to vaccines…as far as multiple or triple vaccines, like MMR, are concerned this process of injecting numerous viruses at one time into the body does not mimic in any way what we would see in the natural world. There would never be such an enormous exposure to that many microorganisms at one time. ... These diseases have never, in the real world, occurred at one time, never. Doesn’t that raise any red flags for you? Of course not, your head is stuck in a lab.

     As much as I value & admire the way body was designed I don’t totally discount medicine & science however, isn’t there anything that is telling you when is enough, enough? Isn’t there anything telling you the chemicals, pollution, vaccine ingredients, & etc are just not how it was supposed to be and their is a imbalance of sorts? Not trying to be the crazy guy standing on the street corner holding the sign that says “the end is near” but I’m trying to be responsible.

     And the “magic water” you refer to has been around a long time. I’m sure you know the history, I don’t need to explain. But come on…how could you totally disregard it and imply it could be of no use or could not be the answer???

     Again, I ask, why can’t we have the best of both worlds? Its not totally far-fetched or unrealistic. Why can’t their be a balance of medicine and homeopathic treatments?

     We will continue to battle new viruses or battle old ones that resurface and if we continue on this path, not allowing our body to act as it was intended, we will be in very dangerous territory.

344. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     00:18:58

     Kev, where is Nightstorm’s delete?

345. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     00:29:31

     I’m down with mother nature. I know Chris would totally disagree as he’s super stuck on MMR but I’m ok with mother nature’s use of acute illness to thin out the population, whereby the fittest survive. Everything in nature has a rhythm, everything. The rhythm of polio, of measles, of influenza, are all on a schedule. I’ll tell you what thou, not down with CPC (Center for Population Control) determining the how’s and why’s the population will be thinned out. I know you will all come back with crap saying…”you’d rather have a dead kid over an Autistic kid!” Come on, you can’t really use that as an argument! Its just a ridiculous statement. I trust the natural progression of life vs some man-made trickery system destined to fail.

346. 
     Kwombles
     September 28th, 2009
     00:46:09

     Jen,

     You are a troll.

     Kev, are all the jens coming from the same IP?

347. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     00:49:36

     Why am I a troll?? And why do question I’m coming from the same IP???

     Come on…argue with me! You are the master of name-calling. You know what KW you remind me of Charlie Brown’s mom…”wawawaaaawawwa” or better yet, the guy with the big monster truck and big muscles…trying to overcompensate.

348. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     01:00:31

     Guest Blogger, in response to earlier questions I had, stated he/she didn’t seem too worried about possibility of vaccine contamination. Below is a link, something I came across a while back, that discusses contamination via vaccines. Before you rag on me about this author’s validity, I want to state I’ve never heard of this man, don’t know what his intention is, have no way to verify if he is a quack or not BUT his information is well written and his journal sources seem to check out.

     http://www.tetrahedron.org/art.....eedle.html

     Just to name a few…Paragraphs that concern me are the following…
     “in spite of manufacturers and regulatory agencies claiming efficacy of their testing procedures, one 2001 study found 13% of human MMR, polio, or Streptococcus pneumoniae vaccines tested positive for pestivirus RNA (19). And another researcher observes, ?serum antibodies against BVDV have been detected in approximately 30% of human population who had no contact with potentially infected animals.?(16) Also, ?pestiviruses adapted to human cell cultures may be harmful because serious BVDV infections in humans have been frequently suggested?The BVDV persistently infected in cell cultures used for vaccine productions have been shown to be a source of contamination in live virus vaccines. It is, therefore, prerequisite to examine pestivirus contamination in cell cultures to avoid secondary infections in humans as well as in animals.?(20)”

     “A letter from the FDA to vaccine manufacturers dated as recently as March 2001 shows that this issue regarding immortal cell lines is still of concern. It states, ?In general, CBER [Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research] currently views Vero cells as an acceptable substrate for viral vaccines, but has residual concerns?CBER recommends that all products derived from Vero cells be free of residual intact Vero cells. If your manufacturing process does not include a validated filtration step or other validated procedure to clear residual intact Vero cells from the product, please incorporate such a procedure into your manufacturing process.?(24) It is now 16 years after the WHO gave a go-ahead (in 1986) to use continuous cell lines for vaccine production (25), and yet there are very basic safety questions not resolved by the manufacturers, agencies, and scientific community, much less the finer details (26, 27). One 1991 study reports: ?Cell substrate DNA was shown to be an abundant contaminant in the clarified preparations of the Sabin type 1, 2 and 3 poliovaccines produced on a continuous cell line?(28). Another indicates that immortal cell lines showed 100-times greater number of DNA recombination events compared to normal cells (29). As one researcher states, ?Using neoplastic cell lines as substrates for vaccine development could inadvertently result in viral-viral or viral-cellular interactions whose biological consequences are unclear?viral-viral and viral-cellular interactions can result in the generation of new retroviruses with pathological consequences.?(30). We note the term ?neoplastic? means the quality of having an abnormal growth characteristic.”

     “It has taken, for instance, approximately forty years for the scientific community to finally acknowledge that we have a serious problem as a result of the contamination of polio vaccines with simian virus 40 (SV40) in the late 1950s-early 1960s. There has been previous evidence of some human brain and other tumors containing this virus (32, 33), but the medical community has been slow to acknowledge a definitive link between SV40 and cancer in humans. However, two independent research teams have recently found this virus present in 43% of cases of non-Hodgkins lymphoma (34, 35). Another study found it present in 36% of brain tumors, 16% of healthy blood cell samples, and 22% of healthy semen samples (36). And strangely, SV40 has now been found to infect children (37). Considering that children of this era, are not supposed to be receiving the virus via the vaccine contamination route, this would therefore imply that SV40 is being transmitted from one human to another, in ways not previously known.”

     When I started researching (or lit review…sorry KW) I began to become increasingly worried about DNA. I’m interested to read your point of view in regards to the probability that the adding of DNA to vaccines could cause issues down the line?

349. 
     Kwombles
     September 28th, 2009
     01:04:18

     Why are you a troll? Really? You sure sound like Lurker.

     I’m having a hard time reconciling all the different Jens that have posted here into the same person who writes this on her blog: “I’m a typical gal who’s just trying to be the best mommy and wife she can be and get the most out of my life by growing and learning! We have 2 beautiful lil ones together and I have 2 super awesome step kids. Our 1st born son has many food allergies/sensitivities and I’m working hard everyday to feed my son! I’m all about sharing ideas and recipes! Any recipes or tips that can help us…please I’m all ears!! Or eyes I guess!”

     Regardless of whether this Jen is the same as all the others isn’t relevant. I try not to argue with people who are obviously not sound of mind or capable of sound reasoning. Either way, all the same or more than one person, no point. Troll.

     Master of name-calling? Really? I don’t think so, but you could look over at Thelma and Louise’s. They, along with some of their friends, are masters of name-calling. If you think calling you a troll makes me the master, well, you ain’t seen nothing. Seriously.

350. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     01:10:13

     WOW! KW, I think what you just did…you should be prosecuted. I’d appreciate if Kevin and/or Sullivan would please delete that previous post. That wacko somehow found my blog and is now posting my profile information. This is a violation as I did not grant him/her such access. My blog is in place to help others with recipe issues. Because of him/her, if this post by KW is not taken down I will have to remove my post. This has NO relation to our current conversation! This is sick and outrageous to put it mildly. I suggest you converse with this person and warn him.

351. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     01:13:32

     He/she is involving my children by posting to this group, who has no reason to hear about, their information. I first of all, can’t believe this person is saying I have more then one IP addresses because a mom can’t have an argument??? What a fucking weirdo!

     This person is so threatened by me because I want to argue a very valid point that he/she goes to the trouble of posing my blog profile?????????????????

352. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     01:16:12

     IS ANYONE GETTING MY POSTS???????????? CAN YOU PLEASE REMOVE THE SECTION WHERE THIS NUT JOB, WHO IS INTENTIONALLY LOOKING MY INFO UP, IS POSTING MY BLOG PROFILE INFORMATION???????????????????????? CAN YOU PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS?????????????????

353. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     01:24:17

     WELL, WHAT A WASTE OF 4 DAYS. THANKS TO KW WHO CAN’T CARRY ON AN EDUCATED DEBATE, THEN LURKING WHEN THINGS DON’T GO HIS/HER WAY, AND FINDING SOMEONE’S BLOG THEN POSTING THEIR PROFILE INFO…I’M DONE. THANKS TO YOUR BUDDY KW I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU LURKERS AND WACKOS. ITS OBVIOUS YOUR GOAL IN LIFE IS TO SEEK OUT OTHERS INFORMATION, POST, AND MOCK. I RESPECT THOSE WHO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND VIEWS ON THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY VACCINES BUT WHAT THIS NUT JOB IS THE MOST DISGUSTING THING I’VE EVER SEEN A HUMAN BEING DO. WHEN THE HEAT IS ON, DON’T FRET, KW WILL FIND THEIR INFO AND MAKE FUN OF THEM. YEAH, GREAT DEBATE. WACKO

354. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     01:32:51

     Ok KWombles…aka cat lady…

     http://kwombles.com/index.html

     are you serious?????? you are judging me and sharing my info???? Really??? Are you teaching people???? If I find out you are a part of some university….

     http://kwombles.com/gp2301mainpage.html

     ok, here is your blog

     http://www.counteringageofautism.blogspot.com/

     I think you need a psychiatrist! I assumed you were a man. I am shocked a woman would post profile info on another woman. No wonder you are the cat lady!

355. 
     Kwombles
     September 28th, 2009
     01:48:15

     You know, none of that information is hidden, nor have I attempted to hide it; many of the posters here are aware of my sites and have commented at them. In fact, my blog is linked to my name.

     Your blog is public. You posted your name on this blog. I googled your name. Not hard to do. Took a minute. That’s all. In fact, it was even easier than that. You’ve linked to it at the public forum on autism and mercury.

     I simply wanted to make sure that the person who said that people should die from acute illnesses so that the population could be thinned was the same person who could and did write that blog. Barring Kev or Sullivan saying it’s a different IP, I’ll have to assume you are in fact one person who has posted all of the things you have here.

     I’m pretty sure that I’m not the one coming across as a nutjob.

     Oh, you’ve wounded me, I’m the cat lady. Guilty as charged.

356. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     02:08:12

     Nope wacko, never posted my name on this site. Google my name and there are WAY too many with the same name you would never know. Yep, that is where you and Guest Blogger are members of…Autism-Mercury group. Wait, you and Guest Blogger lurking on the same group…mmmm, wonder…are you the same person????

     You simply what…wanted to what?? “I simply wanted to make sure that the person who said that people should die from acute illnesses so that the population could be thinned was the same person who could and did write that blog. Barring Kev or Sullivan saying it’s a different IP, I’ll have to assume you are in fact one person who has posted all of the things you have here.”

     Your right, wacko woman, I trust our bodies and God to dictate how we will naturally be killed off. It will be how it will be. That saying…the good die young…it sounds like it has some truth!

     Just cause you can’t bring anything to the table in regards to data and/or evidence doesn’t make it right to publicize someones info without them knowing. In all reality, I don’t care that everyone here knows I’m a good mom and love to learn and understand the ways of the world…its just you couldn’t fight so you just had to post such info??? Its very comical and I feel pity for you and your family. It just reassess how wonderful I have it and how right I am. Your other buddies made me think for a second…they almost most had me…but, you had to come in posting personal info cause you just couldn’t fight fair. I seriously doubt anyone credible will be calling you soon to help them debate! What a joke you really are! And you teach, even bigger joke! Holy cow, I’d ask for my $$ back, pronto!

357. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 28th, 2009
     02:16:30

     jen, I can’t take seriously any article that begins with

     “In recent times mankind is experiencing a situation never previously encountered, that being the threat of release of pathogens intended to kill or disable large numbers of people. That danger has prompted certain health agencies to prepare for possible mass vaccination of the populace. ”

     Shades of the Illuminati, anyone?

358. 
     Kwombles
     September 28th, 2009
     02:18:32

     You’re right, you only posted Jennifer L. here.

     And then you wrote about this post on the open forum. Where your link and your name are. You’re right, you didn’t post your whole name here. But you did there and you made it clear you were the same.

     Get a grip. If you get found, it’s because you put it out there. I didn’t link back to your blog. I didn’t provide your whole name. Your posts have been inconsistent as hell. It was reasonable to hope the assy, offensive ones were someone using your name.

     Make up your mind. If vaccines are bad but you want people to die naturally, let survival of the fittest take the course, then have the decency to fall all the way down the line and don’t avail yourself of any medicines or surgeries. Might as well get the vaccines.

     And I don’t belong to that group, never heard of it until this post. And when I went and looked, your post complaining about this blog was on top. Right there for everyone to see.

     I do see, though, that you are one person and all those separate comments can be squarely placed at your feet. Good to know.

359. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 28th, 2009
     02:23:50

     OK, I’m through being polite with jen. You know, jen, KWombles and Guest Blogger are two completely different people. It’s only you who uses multiple sock puppets to try to pretend you have a lot of support on your side.

     http://health.groups.yahoo.com.....age/266473

     Posted by Jennifer Lewis
     gizbaby123

     I know when we put ourselves out there via internet we should expect that there is always a possibility someone out there will get a hold of your information.
     I’m ok with that, but what this woman did is despicable and I want every group to know this woman is/has joined certain yahoo groups only to use people’s info, stories, etc against them…to make fun or mock those who are anti-vaxxers or those who are pro-gfcf diet &/or biomed. 4 days ago I tried to defend a mother,
     whose words were copied and pasted from a yahoo group then made to sound like a horrible mother because of biomed treatments, and when this woman had no argument for me she decided to take my blog profile info and post on the groups comments for everyone to see. I am saddened and disgusted this woman, who from the looks of her blog is a teacher of some sort, is lurking on groups for the sheer enjoyment of making fun of parents who choose to do something about their child’s Autism. I don’t want to stoop to this woman’s level but I feel it is my moral duty as a
     member of each group to share this person’s info with the group in hopes the
     list owner will delete this person based on the fact she has no intention of positive contribution to the group(s).

     Here are her email address… Kim.Wombles@...
     wombles@...

     Here is her blog address…
     http://kwombles.com/index.html

     Here is her class notes/syllabus info…
     http://kwombles.com/gp2301mainpage.html

     And here is her blog address/link…
     http://www.counteringageofautism.blogspot.com/

     more blog addresses of her’s…
     http://www.kwomblesengl1301.blogspot.com/

     I must say, she really loves to use the word woo!

     Jennifer

     “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can’t change;
     courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference.”

360. 
     jypsy
     September 28th, 2009
     02:28:34

     jen,
     Is it fair to say that you think your posts like “OT: Lurker Alert…” and “What the heck is wrong with this person…” are not publicly available for any and all of us to see? If so, you are very much mistaken. As I pointed out way (way, way) up thread, Autism-Mercury list posts are a simple search away. No membership required.

361. 
     Guest Blogger
     September 28th, 2009
     02:39:30

     Thank you jypsy (who BTW, is not Guest Blogger either).

     You, jen, have personally done more to stop the discussion of woo on the yahoo groups than I could have hoped for. Thanks to you, all those parents are now aware that their decisions to “treat” their children in this way are not taking place in the privacy of the group-think of those little echo chambers.

     Thank you very much (and I mean that sincerely).

     Guest Blogger, signing out.

362. 
     Chris
     September 28th, 2009
     02:52:26

     jen:
     

     I know Chris would totally disagree as he’s super stuck on MMR but I’m ok with mother nature’s use of acute illness to thin out the population, whereby the fittest survive.

     Only because you will not answer the question, or more accurately cannot answer the question.

     Interesting how you think children with health issues like my oldest do not deserve to live. I asked you earlier if you were okay with the one out of a thousand dying from measles. You are okay with the large numbers of deaths and disabilities returning to families.

     Also, you are revealing in that you cannot answer a question with real science when you say:
     

     Clean hygiene, good nutrition, clean water, plenty of exercise, vitamins like C, zinc, etc – constitutional treatments (preferably homeopathic). I know, I know, your governmental data provided proves good hygiene and nutrition have nothing to do with the decline of diseases but others studies contradict that information so, who’s telling the truth????.....
     But anyway, not to get off point, have you ever considered the use of isopathy (or nosodes).

     Well, you have not really come up with those studies to contradict any of the information I have provided, have you? Yes, sanitation is good… but measles has returned to Japan, UK, New Zealand, Germany and Switzerland. Has sanitation changed in those countries?

     Do you have a clue as to what homeopathy or isopathy are? Do you really think that diluting a substance to the point where the original substance is no longer in the solution actually works? Do you know that Nat Mur 30C consists of 1 part of salt (Nat Mur is made of sea salt) to 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (that should be 60 zeros) parts of water/alcohol … and then dropped on a sugar pill? Do you know what Avogadro’s Number is, and why it is pertinent to homeopathy?

     jen:
     

     WELL, WHAT A WASTE OF 4 DAYS.

     No, not really. You have shown us that you are quite obsessive, evasive, have very little concept of any real science, and you spend lots of time on anti-vax websites. So much time that you just parrot their same old points, without even bothering to check it out on your own.

     You have shown us what your position is, and how it lacks in facts and compassion. Thanks

363. 
     Chris
     September 28th, 2009
     05:07:26

     Kwombles:
     

     Make up your mind. If vaccines are bad but you want people to die naturally, let survival of the fittest take the course, then have the decency to fall all the way down the line and don’t avail yourself of any medicines or surgeries. Might as well get the vaccines.

     If Jen wanted people to die naturally, and really believed in survival of the fittest, she would not go to all sorts of trouble to give her children a restricted diet. Children who cannot get protein from readily available sources like grain and milk should not get to survive.

     If she really truly believed only those with the best genes should survive, those with food allergies should be weeded out.

     Actually, I don’t think she ever thought that through to its obvious conclusion.

364. 
     Corina Becker
     September 28th, 2009
     05:21:23

     Just wanted to concur with James’ comment, as another autistic who grew up undiagnosed. It’s a life like any one: tough, but worth living.

365. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     05:42:14

     You people crack me up. You just can’t stop. You can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you. As I’ve stated many times…my son would have not had all these allergy issues had it not been for vaccines. That’s what I keep puttin down but you just don’t get. These poor kids are being sacrificed (Asthma, Allergies, Autism, Ear Infections, Arthritis, etc) in the name of keeping them “healthy”. He wouldn’t have had all these diet issues and thus weakness wouldn’t have been an issue. Many woo talkers, what you would term me to be, don’t remember what it was like for polio, measles, etc, right…isn’t that what you say? Talk to any generation from the past…did they talk about having a kid who felt better on the gfcf diet, how about if they even knew such a child…did then even know what the heck gluten was? Did you hear about a kid who couldn’t participate in Gym class cause of his Asthma? How about Cancer?? I actually LOVE to talk to the elders in my community. Its sooo intriguing to me. My neighbor, who hails from Germany some 45yrs ago, remembers having the German measles and said it was the best week of her life. She got to stay at home from school and read “Gone with the Wind”. I asked her about Cancer, Asthma, food allergies. She said, as I’ve already been told, these things didn’t exist back then.

     So, what has changed???? As I stated previously, numerous times, no one wants to be the odd ball…no one wants to think they are putting their child in harms way. Always, no matter how much research I do, the common denominator is vaccines. I can look at all the scientific data all day long but I can’t ignore common sense and logic.

     And, even though KW has this love for mocking others who don’t have the same views (but refuses to provide any data on her behalf), I don’t have any disrespect for those who feel differently. If someone says they don’t agree with vaccines…no problem, if someone says they want to vaccinate…ok, what ever…my 1st reaction is I hope they know the risks and benefits, and those who either suffer for Autism or have children on the spectrum…I have much respect and love for them and treat them the same.

     I think you all would have more people behind you if you were a bit “nicer” in your ways. If you want respect you need to treat others the same. Don’t be a haters. As some rap artists say…don’t hate the players…hate the game…or at least that is how it goes…I think lol!

     Maybe, for just a second, try and view the situation from anthers perspective…not saying be them, do as they do, become brainwashed…just try and understand. No matter which way you look at it this is a hard road for anyone…being a NT person in this world is a hard enough. Regardless of our color, race, religion, height, weight, gender, etc if we could stand behind each other and encourage each other no matter how we choose to live I think the dialogue would be more effective. Ok, maybe I’m living a John Lennon song, but imo, anything really is possible.

     Another thing…you all mention you aren’t real big fans of AoA, Jenny McCarthy, Generation Rescue, etc. That is totally FINE with me. But would you admit, no matter what “group” you side with or meld with, everyone just wants the best for the children of America? Everyone wants to understand the how’s and why’s and how to make life on this planet as good as possible for everyone? Why do you have to have such hate and negative tones with others? It makes you, those w/ such tones, sound very bitter and others won’t want to open up and discuss their feelings. Again, if you want others to understand being anti-vaxx and all the woo crap then try a different tactic and maybe you’d get a bit farther. I notice on your fb, blogs, and other internet groups/outlets you all don’t have much following. Maybe having a more positive attitude with others and trying to accept those with a different opinion, just as you want others to accept Autism as is, will get you further faster.

     I am convinced, not because of woo following or brainwashing…way before I even knew what a darn yahoo group was, my child has issues because his immune system could not properly handle vaccines. Again, I feel it imperative parents are properly educated and understand what each vaccine contains and what the possible reactions could be. Your tone makes me feel that I’m not allowed that right. Well, I am. And you shouldn’t get so mad if others don’t agree. Just get over it already.

366. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     05:54:03

     You people crack me up. You just can’t stop. You can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you in any shape or form. As I’ve stated many times…my son would have not had all these allergy issues had it not been for vaccines. That’s what I keep puttin down but you just choose not to listen or believe what me or anyone else is telling you. Your data says not true so you turn your head at anyone who’s lips are moving in the other direction. These poor kids are being sacrificed (Asthma, Allergies, Autism, Ear Infections, Arthritis, etc) in the name of keeping them “healthy”. My guy wouldn’t have had all these diet issues and thus weakness wouldn’t have been an issue. Many woo talkers, what you would term me to be, don’t remember what it was like for polio, measles, etc, right…isn’t that what you say? Talk to any generation from the past…did they talk about having a kid who felt better on the gfcf diet, how about if they even knew such a child…did then even know what the heck gluten was? Did you hear about a kid who couldn’t participate in Gym class cause of his Asthma? How about Cancer?? I actually LOVE to talk to the elders in my community. Its sooo intriguing to me. My neighbor, who hails from Germany some 45yrs ago, remembers having the German measles and said it was the best week of her life. She got to stay at home from school and read “Gone with the Wind”. I asked her about Cancer, Asthma, food allergies. She said, as I’ve already been told, these things didn’t exist back then. I know, these illnesses are very dangerous. We better hurry up and vaccinate these kids from everything.

     So, what has changed from my generation vs my 80yr old neighbor’s generation???? As I stated previously, numerous times, no one wants to be the odd ball…no one wants to think they are putting their child in harms way. Always, no matter how much research I do, the common denominator is vaccines. I can look at all the scientific data all day long but I can’t ignore common sense and logic.

     And, even though KW has this love for mocking others who don’t have the same views (but refuses to provide any data on her behalf), I don’t have any disrespect for those who feel differently. If someone says they don’t agree with vaccines…no problem, if someone says they want to vaccinate…ok, what ever…my 1st reaction is I hope they know the risks and benefits, and those who either suffer for Autism or have children on the spectrum…I have much respect and love for them and treat them the same.

     I think you all would have more people behind you if you were a bit “nicer” in your ways. If you want respect you need to treat others the same. Don’t be a haters. As some rap artists say…don’t hate the players…hate the game…or at least that is how it goes…I think lol!

     Maybe, for just a second, try and view the situation from anthers perspective…not saying be them, do as they do, become brainwashed…just try and understand. No matter which way you look at it this is a hard road for anyone…being a NT person in this world is a hard enough. Regardless of our color, race, religion, height, weight, gender, etc if we could stand behind each other and encourage each other no matter how we choose to live I think the dialogue would be more effective. Ok, maybe I’m living a John Lennon song, but imo, anything really is possible.

     Another thing…you all mention you aren’t real big fans of AoA, Jenny McCarthy, Generation Rescue, etc. That is totally FINE with me. But would you admit, no matter what “group” you side with or meld with, everyone just wants the best for the children of America? Everyone wants to understand the how’s and why’s and how to make life on this planet as good as possible for everyone? Why do you have to have such hate and negative tones with others? It makes you, those w/ such tones, sound very bitter and others won’t want to open up and discuss their feelings. Again, if you want others to understand being anti-vaxx and all the woo crap then try a different tactic and maybe you’d get a bit farther. I notice on your fb, blogs, and other internet groups/outlets you all don’t have much following. Maybe having a more positive attitude with others and trying to accept those with a different opinion, just as you want others to accept Autism as is, will get you further faster.

     I am convinced, not because of woo following or brainwashing…way before I even knew what a darn yahoo group was, my child has issues because his immune system could not properly handle vaccines. Again, I feel it imperative parents are properly educated and understand what each vaccine contains and what the possible reactions could be. Your tone makes me feel that I’m not allowed that right. Well, I am. And you shouldn’t get so mad if others don’t agree. I’m open to hearing another version or another side. I just don’t get those who aren’t willing to do that same??? Everything the anti-vaxxers showed you or dialogued you totally dismiss. In this forum, you did not, in any way shape or form have the same respect back. You can talk and talk and talk but in the end its just your small group of people who are listening. As you instructed me to get more biology instruction maybe the same would be for you in understand how to effectively listen and communicate. Maybe you don’t care what others think. However, I find that hard to believe, if that were true you wouldn’t be so public with your opinions.

367. 
     christel king
     September 28th, 2009
     06:23:53

     David brown
     I don’t eat sea food, canned foods, use deoterant with alumium ect….I have a grandfather that died of alzheimers.

368. 
     christel king
     September 28th, 2009
     06:26:27

     chris agian thermirsol was NEVER removed from childhood vaccinations. they are STILL in vaccinations. they were never required to be taken out only suggested. since there is nothing to inforce places haven’t been required to do any changes….and those that DID change didn’t recall things so they were on the shelves years after they stopped making it

369. 
     christel king
     September 28th, 2009
     06:29:40

     “What real data do you have that shows the relative risks between the MMR vaccine and the actual diseases of measles, mumps and rubella?”

     again until someone takes the time to call on all those VAERS and it be released to the public (which is it’s all under lock and key and not even avalible to lawyers, we all sit and wait! that is part of our argument!

     no studies to show things being safe espeically in high combo’s like kids are getting and negitive reactions being recorded. but that would of course also meaning taking responsibility for those reactions so we ALL know that is far off

     heck there are 4000 cases in waiting and thosands of others who haven’t even been allowed to file till those 4000 cases are decided….... now lets see we then know at least that many families have been damaged

370. 
     christel king
     September 28th, 2009
     06:50:00

     Guest Blogger
     none of this is all about a moms dream, it’s about our kids life.

     second moms aren’t out there doing all these IV’s and blood draws ect. many of the tests parents do are urine and stool testing, we don’t do many more blood draws then regular kids ect for PANDAS which is the only way to test progress. most parents on groups aren’t doing IV chelation. many do oral. parents doing endoscopes do so because they have years of cronic direah with out growth in their kids. which any GI would recommend to see what is going on, ANY sick kid with medical problems should address that. why wouldn’t they? why wouldn’t you??

     autism isn’t something that always gets better. I have an autistic kid I worked with as a teen. he is now 22. no farther along then he was then. I know others with biomedical that waited for years till kids were 7-8 years old and hadn’t made gains with therapies ect which is WHY they ended up in the biomedical stream finding answers for the first time. you all should be greatful there are parents out there doing this to help kids before SSI crashes and we have mega institutes to all be building to put kids like my son would have been if we hadn’t gone the route we did

     yeah I can’t spell, not my gift, doesn’t bother me, aparently it does you! my kids doing great! thanks to biomed, doesn’t require spelling, I type fast! so things some times get left out letter wise. don’t be OCD move on….how is YOUR child doing?>

371. 
     David N. Brown
     September 28th, 2009
     06:57:36

     Christel,
     Marks for consistency…
     As far as the question of recall, that is not how vaccine distribution works. Vaccines are perishable, and are issued with clearly visible expiration dates. Also, vaccines are returnable, so there is no incentive for distributors to try to sell expired vaccines. (By all serious accounts, there’s relatively little profit in vaccination anyway.) The only places I could see expired vaccines being an issue is third-world countries, which I suspect are the source of the vast majority of actual, current vaccine injuries.

372. 
     christel king
     September 28th, 2009
     07:02:37

     Guest Blogger
     wow we differ on more roads then one. autism has soared. you can talk to any teacher in the school system that has worked 20 years and they will tell you they never had loads of kids like this! that doesn’t have to measure adults now or then, you compair kid numbers with kid numbers.
     I can walk down the block either way and run into neighbors on each side with kids on specturm,

373. 
     Chris
     September 28th, 2009
     07:25:07

     Christel, you make lots of statements, but provide no supporting evidence. This is called “argument by assertion”, which is not valid.

     As I have shown, VAERS is raw data, and there have been several studies where the information was evaluated, and no real association between vaccines and autism has been shown. All you have to do is look at the real research and not the pablum fed to you by anti-vax sites.

     Though it might help if you used the more common spellings of words like the preservative: thimerosal. It is also known (more chemically accurate) as thiomersal. I do realize you have trouble with spelling (and grammar), and I accept that is part of your neurodiversity (dyslexia perhaps? I mean you did use “VARS” instead “VAERS” several times, and you did have trouble with the word “seizures”), so I hope when you look up stuff on thimerosal you will more successful knowing the more common spellings.

     So what happened to those studies that replicated Wakefield’s dozen case studies? You told me that there were reports his research was not flawed and some reporter was fired, but you have not shared the supporting documentation. Surely there is something other than the paper by Hornig and friends that failed to come up with the same results.

     Also, please make up your mind. Is it the MMR or is it thimerosal that causes autism! It can’t be both. The MMR has never contained thimeroal, nor aluminum. Which is it?

     Also, can I assume you do not eat pickles or use anything with baking powder? Pickles are made with alum, and baking powder has aluminum sulfate. Do you also not use aluminum cookware, nor drink out of any aluminum can? Do you make sure you never ever touch an aluminum light pole or aluminum window ever? Looking around me, I see an aluminum desk lamp, an aluminum level used for hanging pictures, a digital camera with an aluminum body, and this laptop has an aluminum shell. Surely by touching them bits of aluminum wear off. How do you avoid the most common metal on the planet you live on? Do you enclose yourself in some kind of plastic shell (is that how you can protect yourself from tetanus, because it lives everywhere, there is no herd immunity from “lock jaw”).

374. 
     David N. Brown
     September 28th, 2009
     09:24:52

     Christel,
     “again until someone takes the time to call on all those VAERS and it be released to the public (which is it’s all under lock and key and not even avalible to lawyers, we all sit and wait! that is part of our argument!”

     VAERS is completely open to the public. I’ve used VAERS data myself, for an article responding to Kim Stagliano of AOA who also cited the same data.

375. 
     hammie
     September 28th, 2009
     11:45:57

     You have hit the nail on the head when you say the biggest problem in these cases is the parents inability to accept a diagnosis. I welcome the studies and stats on this in relation to measuring positive outcomes for kids with any kind of ASD, but what criteria do we measure it by?
     If you say “partakes in mainstream education” is a measureable goal I would say
     A) my kids will never go to mainstream and thank goodness because neither of their parents had a very good time there

     and B) the state is very willing to push kids into mainstream on the basis of compliance over academic ability. So they are just basically being minded but not achieving any typical academic goals or even social skills as they are isolated and recognised only when disrupting the class.

     Whereas a child in special education may learn a range of academic, social and life skills and emerge with a far more well rounded ability to take on mainstream “life” on their own terms.

     It is another whole can of (organic?) worms but in my opinion I would measure the benefits of kids choosing parents who love and accept them for who they are, who find humor, joy and satisfaction in every step they take, and who grow up and go forward into the world on their own terms, Who want to be “known and understood” by their parents and bloom in the knowledge that they are very very loved.

     xx

376. 
     Kwombles
     September 28th, 2009
     12:23:54

     A big shout out to Jen for netting me my first anonymous, vaguely worded implied death threat! Wow, Jen, you rock! What a proud day for you.

     See countering for my rebuttal to the actual comment.

     Anonymous said…

     “Good to have your picture and class schedule. Makes it so much easier.”

377. 
     brian
     September 28th, 2009
     17:07:30

     Science-Based Medicine has a new post that has as its starting point the discussion that Guest Blogger initiated here.

     The price of anti-vaccine fanaticism: Case histories

     http://www.sciencebasedmedicin.....0#more-510

     “This . . . illustrates a principle of autism quackery. Because autism is a condition of developmental delay, not stasis, and because it frequently has periods of stasis followed by periods of rapid development followed by periods of stasis again, if a parent tries enough quackery, sooner or later by sheer coincidence alone he or she will be seem to be able to match up a remedy with an apparent improvement.”

378. 
     jen
     September 28th, 2009
     17:22:24

     KW, that is not from me. I would appreciate it if you would please stop harassing me and stop emailing me.

379. 
     Kwombles
     September 28th, 2009
     17:36:07

     Jen,

     I didn’t say it was from you, only that your actions last night going on multiple yahoo groups and posting all my information and essentially advocating that people harass me was. In addition, you emailed me first to say this:

     From: Jennifer

     Subject: Re: OT: Lurker Alert…

     To: “wombles@sbcglobal.net”

     Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 9:04 PM

     I’m over it. Thanks! I’ve already received at least a dozen emails. All saying the same, you are a very strange woman of three Autistic children. The overall feeling about you is the same…they feel pity for you and your family. I do have one question….why are you a a part of a yahoo group, such as A-M, that is really of no interest to you considering you don’t agree with any of the principals???? What a way to end 4 days. I thank you, I’ve learned my lesson…it would be less painful to beat my head against the wall then to argue with a group who are committed to never opening their eyes to reality…poor kids.”

     I responded to it, and that response is on my blog. I emailed you this morning with this: “http://counteringageofautism.blogspot.com/2009/09/anonyomous-proxied-dumbass-i-got-me-one.html

     I so hope that helps you get even further over it.”

     So, I’m going to go with one email response to you and the above additional to you as not consituting harrassment. And I have not posted your identifying information.

     However, your posts to the various groups actually does, under Texas Penal Code Section 42.07. Might be something you wanted to consider.

     :-)

380. 
     Dedj
     September 28th, 2009
     17:50:16

     Repeated posting upon multiple boards with intent to accuse of illicit or illegal access, veiled threats towards making formal complaints, smears on professional reputations, implicit accusations of professional misconduct, nudge-nudge wink-wink ‘exposing’ of a ‘lurker’ including thier place of work knowing full well it will attract slander and harrassment if not more….

     Jen would be well advised to quit adding to her rap-sheet now, or pony up some really serious evidence.

     The posts referencing this thread are publically available and easily findable. Even with the throughput on that yahoo group, the first post was still only second page. A post to the original thread, smearing kev and GB as ‘sickos’? Page 4. That’s without using the search function. Jens L’s real name and website is at the bottom of each, with her handle on the right. A simple google search shows up nearly 300 relevant results for that handle alone, all publically viewable. Her maiden name and photo are there too, on a publically viewable page.

     Although I would never advocate posting personal information, Kim originally anonymised Jens alledged ‘private’ information. Jen responded by collating and posting Kims information on a publically viewable forum, when private messages to the forum administrators would have been the most viable option.

     Jen should try not to spam repeated messages to multiple publically viewable message boards if she wants to remain unfindable.

     Jen would be very well advised to stop being niave and learn just how much is freely publically available and just how powerful google is, even to those using only publically viewable information.

381. 
     Sullivan
     September 28th, 2009
     17:54:42

     Kwombles,

     there is an odd disconnect amongst the alternative medicine groups. You can often find comments with statements to the effect of “we would never criticize them for how they raise their kids”. Then you read the, “your family suffers because you don’t believe in alt-med treatments” type comments as well.

     The alternative medicine community is like any other. There are a lot of very nice people. There are others who are not so nice.

382. 
     Corina Becker
     September 29th, 2009
     05:09:04

     So jen has little to no respect for us, huh? Given from her first comments, I would have to say that she didn’t really have very much respect for us to begin with. Since the beginning, I have found jen’s comments to be at least mildly offensive, as in, in indention of attacking, and fairly illogical. Never mind being a diarrhea of the fingers in terms of length, to the point where I not only consider her a troll, but a spammer as well.

     Also, jen dear, welcome to the World Wide Web, aka, what you do is public to all and the entire world can see what you do.

383. 
     christel king
     October 1st, 2009
     19:15:34

     Thoughtful House Center for Children Announcement:

     New Research Study Shows Developmental Delays in Monkeys Given Hepatitis B Vaccines

     Sept. 30, 2009

     (Austin, Texas) – A new research study published today in a leading scientific journal, NeuroToxicology, found that a Hepatitis B vaccine containing the mercury-based preservative thimerosal caused significant delays in the acquisition of critical survival reflexes in newborn rhesus macaque monkeys. In this first-ever study comparing vaccinated animals with unvaccinated controls, thirteen of the animals were given a Hepatitis B vaccine containing a standardized amount of thimerosal to match that given to babies; four received a saline placebo, and three were not given any shots. The unvaccinated animals developed normally. Delays in vaccinated infants involved three critical reflexes associated with feeding, which are essential for survival in the wild.

     “Infants of lower birth weight and gestational age were at greater risk” explained Dr. Laura Hewitson of the University of Pittsburgh, one of the principal investigators of the study. “The reflexes affected in this study are controlled by the brainstem, which regulates functions like heart rate, breathing, and intestinal activity, so these findings give us cause for concern, especially for low birth weight and pre-term infants who might be more susceptible to functional brain injury from this vaccine.”

     According to Hewitson, the study was not designed to determine whether it was the thimerosal preservative or another component of the vaccine that caused the observed delays. Although the FDA and American Academy of Pediatrics recommended in 1999 that thimerosal be removed as soon as possible from vaccines in the US, it is still used as a preservative in flu shots, including the recently licensed H1N1 vaccines. Flu shots are currently recommended for pregnant women and children 6 months of age and older.

     “We undertook these experiments largely because we were unable to find any safety studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated animals,” said Dr.. Andrew Wakefield, Executive Director of Thoughtful House and a co-investigator of the project. “This study is part of a larger research program looking at the safety of the vaccine schedule from birth to age four years. What is particularly concerning is that in spite of the recommendation to remove thimerosal from vaccines a decade ago, millions of people, many of them children and pregnant mothers, are about to get mercury in their flu shots.”
     R>Thimerosal is also still routinely used in Hepatitis B and numerous other vaccines world-wide.

384. 
     christel king
     October 1st, 2009
     19:45:10

     CHRIS

     “Also, please make up your mind. Is it the MMR or is it thimerosal that causes autism! It can’t be both. The MMR has never contained thimeroal, nor aluminum. Which is it?”

     again I am an educated parent (yeah my spelling likely doesn’t help) when it comes to this,i KNOW That MRR never contained mercury! MY son spirial from MMR given in combo with other vaccinations. MMR damaged both him and I, so I am sure there is a genetic component and this was a switch for us. for me I became hypoglycemic to the place I was passing out ever other day after mine, for him autism. it can be EITHER that is a trigger, virus, yeast infections, bactieral issues, metals, allergy reactions ect. it’s to much on the immune system over loaded. my son reacted to allergy components, plus viral, plus ill already at the time, perhaps immunodefiecent ect…

     “Also, can I assume you do not eat pickles or use anything with baking powder? Pickles are made with alum, and baking powder has aluminum sulfate. Do you also not use aluminum cookware, nor drink out of any aluminum can? Do you make sure you never ever touch an aluminum light pole or aluminum window ever? Looking around me, I see an aluminum desk lamp, an aluminum level used for hanging pictures, a digital camera with an aluminum body, and this laptop has an aluminum shell. Surely by touching them bits of aluminum wear off.”

     we use alumimium free baking powder, pickels made from garlic no metals in there, no we also don’t use alumium cookware, or having anything out of cans ect the occational coconut milk used for cooking cake which is like 3-4 times a year. TOUCHING an alumium deck lamp or picture ect. isn’t putting it INTO your body…..get real!

385. 
     Chris
     October 1st, 2009
     20:03:37

     Now please tell what studies have replicated Wakefield’s dozen case studies he published in 1998. Please give the journal, title, date and authors.

386. 
     alex
     October 2nd, 2009
     21:09:28

     I don’t see the point in this war. I am, in fact, very saddened by the split that is quickly becoming a chasm, amongst a group of people who are, actually all in the same boat. My naivety on this count is of course my own failure, but it seems to me that if we come together and pool ALL of our skills and information we would be so much further ahead. I will state my position here and hope that my comments will not further the “surge” but be taken in the spirit in which they offered, genuine concern over the rift that is accelerating in “our community.” So here goes nothing: -)
     —I believe that consideration of others is the very basis of Neurodiversity and I would like to see the premise extended to include toleration of different parental choices and beliefs.
     —I believe we need to stop wasting our time hunting each other down and trying to destroy each other. That is just neglecting our primary mission which is (or should be) advocating for our children in society, where indeed we do often have to be fighters. (Anyone who has sat through an IEP meeting will find the fighter in them come alive.) That is called advocacy. And we need to save our energy for optimizing our children’s care so that they may have a semblance of independence when they reach adulthood.
     —I believe we need to stop name calling. It has no rhetorical substance and is merely a tactic aimed toward disabling one’s “opponent” by deflating his/her confidence. This is so rudimentary that High School Debate Teams know this to be “the first rule.”
     —I believe in empirical evidence, but I also believe that along with direct observation, correlations (patient/parents reports) are very often the basis of the hypotheses around which these studies are conducted. In order for these correlations to come to light some people have to be wading outside the official pool a bit, ( In business we call these people visionaries. In medicine we call them quacks.) (i.e. Johns Hopkins revamping their Ketogenic Diet from the torturous starvation diet that it was to incorporate the foundations of the Atkin’s Diet. Atkins was deemed a quack once, now thanks to collaboration between the “opposing camps” children suffer less with the same outcome.
     —I believe that parents have to stay healthy mentally and physically in order to give their children the love and care that they need and deserve. And, if there is a parent on a group somewhere who is in obvious mental pain it is extremely counterproductive to add to her burden by publicly humiliating her. This is not helping any of us, least of all her child who needs her to be stable and present. Some people don’t have support systems in place, those of us who do are the lucky ones. If a parent needs to vent, let them vent. Stuffing her frustrations will only make the child’s situation more precarious. Gentleness and humor are great medicine for all concerned.
     —I believe that the bar is different for everyone and strive to see the individual potential in children of all abilities. Same for we adults, we all cope differently. Why do we have to compare? Or worse, seek differences in each other while preaching tolerance for our children?
     —I don’t believe in excess in our children’s care This goes for chelation and pumping supplements to MTS surgery and heavy pharmaceuticals to O.Ding them on therapies. I’m neither anti-vax nor am I anti-anti-vax. Some vaccinations I’ve agreed to and others not. (ie: I see no point in giving a newborn baby a Hep B shot and will never be convinced otherwise) I believe in weighing the risk/benefit of care options.
     —And finally (aren’t you relived! :-) I believe children are children and even those with medical or cognitive complications have very simple needs: a safe and nurturing environment, understanding and companionship, warm loving arms around them and plenty of fun. And, I guess their parent’s needs aren’t so different.

     thanks for listening.

387. 
     Chris
     October 3rd, 2009
     08:19:51

     Christel says that “TOUCHING an alumium deck lamp or picture ect. isn’t putting it INTO your body…..get real!”

     Oh, deary, don’t you know you are dealing with folks at “Generation Rescue” who thought transdermal creams would be a cure? Haven’t you heard of Rashid Buttar and his transdermal chelation creams?

     So why wouldn’t touching aluminum dust be a problem? Explain that to me. Aluminum is only the most common metal on Earth. How do you avoid that?

     Oh, and garlic is not a sufficient substitute for alum for pickles. It has to do with crispiness, not flavor. (you don’t cook much, do you?... funny, most of the “natural moms” usually know the basics of canning and pickling, obviously you do not).

388. 
     notindenial
     October 4th, 2009
     05:58:43

     http://jcn.sagepub.com/cgi/con.....22/11/1308

     “We have reanalyzed the data set originally reported by Ip et al. in 2004 and have found that the original p value was in error and that a significant relation does exist between the blood levels of mercury and diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder.”

389. 
     notindenial
     October 4th, 2009
     06:10:41

     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....06202.html

     “Money can easily trump morality and the five drug companies contracted with the U.S. government to produce the H1N1 vaccines will be paid from $250 to $690 million each for mass production.”

     “Vaccinations were suspended when 1,098 people suffered from Guillain-Barré syndrome, a disorder that causes the body’s immune system to attack parts of the nervous system. There was a 1 in 100,000 rate of occurrence. Although we must assume vaccines have improved considerably in the intervening years, the insert on the Novartis swine flu vaccine being administered this fall lists Guillain-Barré as a possible side effect.”

     “But because it accumulates in the body as a potent toxin to the developing brain, in July of 1999 the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics agreed that “thimerosal-containing vaccines should be removed [from the market] as soon as possible.”

     “Thimerosal, nonetheless, continues to be used as a preservative in sixteen vaccines, five of which are given to infants. Although it was taken out of the Hepatitis B, Diptheria,Tetanus and Pertussis, and the hemophillus B shots in the US in 2000, the mercury-based additive is included in the multi-dose seasonal flu shots and H1N1, and is also in some childhood formulations of meningitis vaccines.”

     “No one seems to know why the mercury has not been removed. In fact, the government has all but ignored the 1986 Mandate for Safer Childhood Vaccines, the Combating Autism Act, and a unanimous decision in June from the National Vaccine Advisory Committee, which all called for safety studies and research comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated humans and animals. This has never been done for thimerosal or even the Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR) vaccine, which an increasing number of parents have associated with the onset of autism in their children.”

     “Private research, in collaboration with universities, is endeavoring to fill this gap and is turning up disturbing results. A new study from a group of scientists, which was just published in the journal NeuroToxicology, has shown that the birth dose of a thimerosal-containing Hepatitis B vaccine given to macaque monkeys caused developmental delays in key survival instincts.”

     “Had this study been done as a pre-clinical trial, the FDA could have never licensed a mercury-containing Hepatitis B vaccine, nor could the CDC have ever recommended one, at least for infants and young children,” said Theresa Wrangham, president of the group SafeMinds. “We are especially alarmed because the seasonal influenza and swine flu vaccines contain mercury. We think pregnant women and young children should not be given mercury-containing medicines with such significant side effects.”

     “Even the CDC has conceded that some safety “claims against vaccines cannot be disproved” and that it “does not have complete adverse events surveillance data on which to base health messages.”

     “More and more parents will continue to revolt until they are completely confident their children are safe.

     Hardly seems like that’s too much to ask.”

390. 
     notindenial
     October 4th, 2009
     11:29:55

     http://www.fourteenstudies.org/studies.html

     “Written by the Centers for Disease Control, the federal agency in charge of the vaccine program. The lead author, Thomas Verstraeten, left to take a job with Glaxo SmithKline — a vaccine manufacturer — after the study was written and before it was published. The U.S. Congress later cited this as an ethical violation.”

     “This study was supported by the Stanley Medical Research Institute.” [Two of the seven authors were employees of Denmark’s largest vaccine manufacturer, Statens Serum Institute”

     “Dr. Thompson reports being a former employee of Merck; Dr. Marcy, receiving consulting fees from Merck, Sanofi Pasteur, GlaxoSmithKline, and MedImmune; Dr. Jackson, receiving grant support from Wyeth, Sanofi Pasteur, GlaxoSmithKline, and Novartis, lecture fees from Sanofi Pasteur, and consulting fees from Wyeth and Abbott and serving as a consultant to the FDA Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee; Dr. Lieu, serving as a consultant to the CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices; Dr. Black, receiving consulting fees from MedImmune, GlaxoSmithKline, Novartis, and Merck and grant support from MedImmune, GlaxoSmithKline, Aventis, Merck, and Novartis; and Dr. Davis receiving consulting fees from Merck and grant support from Merck and GlaxoSmith- Kline. No other potential conflict of interest relevant to this article was reported.”

     “Dr. Pichichero was a member of the discovery team at the University of Rochester that invented, tested and licensed a Haemophilus influenzae b (Hib) conjugate vaccine (HibTITER®) now universally given to children in the U.S. [he makes vaccines, but didn’t report as a conflict]”

     “* We are actually reviewing 19 studies. The truth is, the public figures who discuss the “overwhelming” evidence have different numbers that they cite for the number of studies done. We chose to name our website “Fourteen Studies” to match the quote from Amanda Peet.”

391. 
     notindenial
     October 4th, 2009
     11:31:08

     http://www.fourteenstudies.org/ourstudies.html

392. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 4th, 2009
     15:24:31

     Time Magazine article:

     http://www.time.com/time/healt.....15,00.html

     Partial quote:

     “On Sept. 22, England’s National Health Service (NHS) released the first study of autism in the general adult population. The findings confirm the intuitive assumption: that ASD is just as common in adults as it is in children. Researchers at the University of Leicester, working with the NHS Information Center found that roughly 1 in 100 adults are on the spectrum — the same rate found for children in England, Japan, Canada and, for that matter, New Jersey.

     This finding would also appear to contradict the commonplace idea that autism rates have exploded in the two decades. Researchers found no significant differences in autism prevalence among people they surveyed in their 20s, 30s, 40s, right up through their 70s. “This suggests that the factors that lead to developing autism appear to be constant,” said Dr. Terry Brugha, professor of psychiatry at the University of Leicester and lead author of the study. “I think what our survey suggests doesn’t go with the idea that the prevalence is rising.””
     ———

393. 
     Sullivan
     October 4th, 2009
     15:31:04

     notindenial—
     how ironic. The fourteen studies site is an excellentexample of denialism at its worst. Whoever wrote it is in clear denial of the fact that neither mercury nor MMR caused an “autism epidemic”. The author even uses the clearly dishonest “data”showing suposedly lower autism rates in countries with fewer vaccines. You did notice that the author uses old autism rates for foeign counties and compares them to more recent data from the US, right?

     I note that you have done nothing but cut and paste from there and Huffington post. Did you have anything to say?

394. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 4th, 2009
     16:12:22

     Dear alex (Mr. Why Can’t We All Just Get Along?)

     Can you please re-read the original post. In particular read the Big List™ of treatments. Can you please tell me if you would choose any of this list of words to describe the Big List™?

     Justified, warranted, medically necessary, proven, safe, appropriate.

     Or would you choose?

     Outrageous, unnecessary, inappropriate, dangerous.

     This isn’t about better advocacy for our children, about which I hope we all can agree. It’s about alerting outsiders to the extent of unjustifiable and dangerous experimentation that takes place on children, in the name of “recovering” them from a disorder which their parent(s) has not accepted. That discussion is not taking place in the echo chamber of the “biomedical treatment” yahoo groups.

     Mary once believed her son was a “Sowell kid” a “Natural Late Talker”, a child who had hidden brilliance, and would one day be perfectly normal. Now, she apparently believes he is a “PANDAS kid”, and with sufficient expensive intravenous treatment, he will recover from the “PANDAS”.

     But you can see that she hopes the IVIG treatment for his “PANDAS” will cure his autism as well. Look at the response she gave to inquiries on how the IVIG had gone. I quoted it previously upthread.

     “A few things I’ve noticed, and it may or may not be from the IVIG.

     His screaming has decreased. He had some screams that are clearly tics and some that are definitely behavioral. Both have decreased but the tic ones decreased more.

     Slight improvement in eye contact.

     In the last week or so he’s sillier and more playful. It’s easier to get him to laugh and engage in something silly like making faces back and forth and he seems to get a bigger kick out of me being silly.”

     So, she’s not just looking for improvements in PANDAS symptoms. She’s looking for improvement in ASD symptoms. Poor eye contact and lack of social reponsiveness aren’t PANDAS symptoms.

395. 
     Case Studies: Dangerous And Deadly Medical Experiments Conducted On Austistic Children By Anti-Vaccinationists - Better Health
     October 8th, 2009
     13:00:56

     [...] autistic children are subjected to was a post by a guest blogger at Left Brain/Right Brain entitled Truth and Consequences: The Anti-vaccination Movement Exacts a Price: But behind the scientific and legal consensus that vaccines do not cause autism lies a hidden [...]

396. 
     Anon
     October 9th, 2009
     11:20:45

     Hi

     I have receaved this from some one who wants to remain anonymous.

     They are changing the mental health act so that people who are under it will be forced vaccinated.

     Please flood Debbie Nixons e-mail the Director of Commissioning partly responcerble for this mass vaccine planning.

     http://www.manchester.nhs.uk/d.....ugust1.doc

     It was noted that a mass vaccination was required later in the year which would create pressure for GPs and community services.

     Minutes of Board meeting held on

     held on 5 August 2009

     The Cornerstone Centre

     debbie.nixon@manchester.nhs.uk

     http://www.northwest.nhs.uk/.......20Team.pdf

     These poeple need to know when enough is enough I have not receaved 1 responce from her and this is not accepterble.

     Please raise the alarm urgently

     http://www.bolton.nhs.uk/Libra.....mework.pdf

     Just for you to be warned-i think they maybe planning forced vaccinations of untrialed flu vaccines (can send you loads of info), i as looking at some sites as this is very worrying-and found this-being as you were a local…(thought you would be interested).
     —————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

     The second freshly discovered document is a sample vaccination order (PDF) originating from the NHS health authority in Bolton, Lancashire.

     The order states that people in the UK will be summoned for a vaccination at an allocated date and time at pre-planned mass vaccination centres, and that refusal to attend is not an option.

     It is important that you attend this session. If you are unable to attend, you will need to go to one of the later sessions listed overleaf, says the letter in Appendix F page 29 of the contingency document.

     The letter lists Bolton Arena as the mass vaccination site, which is a large indoor sports arena.

     This is a new vaccine, which protects against the pandemic strain of influenza, which circulated last year. the letter, which was drawn up in September 2006, states.

     The document also highlights the need for crowd control and says that contract security should be considered in addition to the local police forces.

     Anon

397. 
     notindenial
     October 9th, 2009
     17:03:39

     http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2.....9956.shtml

398. 
     notindenial
     October 9th, 2009
     17:07:27

     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....11621.html

399. 
     notindenial
     October 9th, 2009
     17:12:21

     http://coto2.wordpress.com/200.....bjections/

400. 
     Sullivan
     October 9th, 2009
     17:43:26

     notindenial,

     thanks for the link to the Huffington Post article. I’m not a flu vaccine guy, I’m a parent of an autistic kid. But, the article is interesting from one perspective—
     They mention Tom Jefferson of the Cochrane group.

     Dr. Tom Jefferson was supposed to receive an award from the NVIC (the self-named National Vaccine Information Center). Dr. Jefferson pulled out shortly before the conference. Dr. Jefferson did not want himself and, by association, the Cochrane group associated with Dr. Wakefield, a man who has misused and misquoted the Cochrane reports.

401. 
     notindenial
     October 10th, 2009
     16:46:01

     http://mercury-freedrugs.org/

402. 
     Chris
     October 10th, 2009
     19:09:51

     I believe we can now see “notindenial” is a spam troll. Just posting links with supporting or critiquing arguments to go along.

     Okay, notindenial, how about linking to the study that replicates Wakefield’s series of case studies that were in the 1998 retracted Lancet article? Or to the peer reviewed studies on the effectiveness of at least a few of the treatments Mary is subjecting her son to, especially the nicotine patch?

403. 
     passionlessDrone
     October 11th, 2009
     00:53:28

     Hi Chris –
     I was quite surprized to find that there is some, limited, science on using nicotine patches for things like tics / tourettes. I hesitate to jump in, we have no idea if Mary is attempting to address these types of syptoms, but there is a chance that this isn’t just stabbing in the dark.

     Clinical and attentional effects of acute nicotine treatment in Tourette’s syndrome.

     Or an older study that found that nicotine patches allowed for reductions in haloperidol dosage in patients that got the patch.

     Nicotine Patch Helps Control Symptoms Of Tourette’s Syndrome In Children And Adolescents

     None of these, of course, ameleriorate the problems associated with nicotine, but as with any medical treatment, we need to weigh the risks with the benifit of the treatment. As we have only Guess Bloggers highly targeted information as to Mary’s son, making conclusions in this regard is very difficult to do.

     – pD

404. 
     Chris
     October 11th, 2009
     01:07:59

     Thank you, pD. That is reasonable, but I doubt Mary had them prescribed by a doctor. When my son was having tics, I was told by his neurologist that it was pretty normal and he would grow out of it, and he did.

405. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 11th, 2009
     14:31:07

     Here’s all I know about Mary’s rationale for the nicotine patch:

     “What’s the age/weight of your child? Our DAN recommended 1/4 of a 7mg patch and it did nothing for my guy. I wonder if we tried enough of a dose”

     So, she just tried it on the say-so of her DAN! doctor. Notice that she seems willing to try a HIGHER dose based on the recommendation of a stranger on the internet.

406. 
     Anna
     October 11th, 2009
     18:40:31

     Sounds like the so called ” guest blogger” is a certified wack job posting people’s personal information on the internet.
     I am not sure what is worse – getting misinformation on the internet, or posting personal information to defame and slander individuals.
     If someone disagrees with the process a parent is using to figure out their child, it is unnecessary to steal emails and personal material to make a point.
     Clearly this so called ” guest blogger” needs to take a look in the mirror , and as well, it is clear that this is not really about the vaccination issue being discussed, but some kind of personal vendetta.
     I hope someone contacts the authorities of this Guest blogger’s person’s misuse of material on the internet.
     It is pretty sick indeed.

407. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 11th, 2009
     19:02:47

     Thanks Anna, for the good laugh! Yep, I posted someone’s personal information on the internet. And how did I acquire that information in the first place? Because Mary posted her personal information on a PUBLIC yahoo group. Yes, a public group. It says so right on the front page.

     Anna, maybe you need to learn that the internet is not a private place.

408. 
     Dedj
     October 11th, 2009
     20:56:19

     Indeed, as has already been pointed out, this ‘personal’ information was on a publically viewable forum.

     As has been already pointed out, the actions of ‘Mary’s’ defenders, who posted replies to the initial thread directing people over here rather than sending personal messages, ensured that this ‘personal’ information turned up in google searches and ensured this ‘personal’ information turned up on the first few pages of a publically viewable forum.

     Indeed, ‘Marys’ real name and (online service) handle are publically available on a publically viewable forum because ‘Mary’ either included them deliberately or did not select the privacy options.

     Videos of ‘Mary and Saul’ are publically available on a (international multi-million user video download service) because ‘Mary’ made it so.

     ‘Sauls’ (online store) wishlist and ‘Marys’ profile and reviews are publically available because ‘Mary’ made it so.

     ‘Marys’ (chat/update service) profile, her full name, her birthday, her town and state, her love of (popular band), even a possible list of schools she has attended, are all publically available because ‘Mary’ has provided that information as the primary source and has not ticked privacy options to hide the information. She even uses the same handle for nearly everything meaning most of this can be found using one obvious and publically available single word term in google. Some of it requires two obvious and publically available words in goggle.

     None of this requires any ‘stealing’ or ‘misuse’ of material. ‘Mary’ has not asserted any IP rights and Yahoo’s privacy policy only applies to staff and affiliates.

     As much as I do not personally agree with GB’s use of the material (although his interpretations match up with the rest of ‘Marys’ writtings that I know of), GB anonymised the material and correctly attributed it as much as he/she could given the limitations. GB has not infringed any of lb/rb or yahoo terms of service, privacy policies, abuse policies or any other known applicable codes or standards. This is in contrast to one of ‘Marys’ defenders who collated info on Kim W and posted it with reasonable expectations that it would be used to harass.

409. 
     Anna
     October 11th, 2009
     22:07:42

     This is a public forum, but whoever claims they got the quotes from a willing participant or public forum, is telling lies .
     The author did not wish to have private emails published here on this blog.
     The fact is, points can be made about these issues without stealing and stalking private email lists.
     Because the author who is stealing emails seems to think they have to do it unethically, it is more about harrassment of individuals than exploring the issues of autism and the cause.

410. 
     jypsy
     October 11th, 2009
     22:33:43

     “This is a public forum, but whoever claims they got the quotes from a willing participant or public forum, is telling lies .”

     Sorry Anna, but you are incorrect. The Autism-Mercury Yahoo list has public archives. The owners could choose to have a “members only” archives but have chosen to make everyone’s messages public. Every message is searchable in Yahoo’s search if not Google’s. Every member who participates in the Autism-Mercury list and posted there did so willingly. No one forced them to join and/or post to that list.

     Don’t believe me? Try this:
     1) Make sure you are signed out of your Yahoo account
     2) Go to http://health.groups.yahoo.com.....sm-Mercury
     3) Observe that you have free access to every post on the list and that it is, indeed, publicly available to anyone.

411. 
     Dedj
     October 11th, 2009
     22:58:09

     Sorry Anna, but the original postings are publically available.

     ‘Mary’ may have used her email client to send the postings, but they are not stored as email on the yahoo site. You can even use the site to post without using your email client.

     As stated on the first page of the group:

     “MESSAGES are “public” (you don’t need to “join” to read them)”

     I also joined yahoo to test whether I could post without email. The interface was just like any messageboard or blog.

     We need to stop these silly accusations of criminality.

     The ‘emails’ are public. It says so in the first place any decently intelligent and minimally tech-savvy person would think to look.

412. 
     Chris
     October 11th, 2009
     23:18:49

     Anna, does this look like a private forum: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/date_index_1.html ?

413. 
     Anna
     October 12th, 2009
     00:31:26

     Some are not private forums, but some are.
     This person knows exactly what they are doing.
     They are telling lies , to get on some private discussion lists and trolling lists to get emails.
     It is a shame because some people actually think this is a legitimate website that takes autism seriously !

414. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     00:50:56

     The posts came from a specific forum which was public, and has readily accessible archives going back at least nine years. What part of that do you not understand?

415. 
     jypsy
     October 12th, 2009
     01:16:07

     Anna is talking not about the Autism-Mercury post quotes but about the others, taken from http://health.groups.yahoo.com.....teTalkers/
     Sorry Anna, my mistake. Being clear would help us in understanding. I was wrong, mistaken in thinking these were all Autism-Mercury posts, but not a “liar”.

416. 
     Laura
     October 12th, 2009
     01:24:26

     Allow me. Anna’s the founder of the natural late talkers group. You’ll note her trademark comma abuse if you compare her notes here to this:

     http://health.groups.yahoo.com.....teTalkers/

     and this:

     http://www.latetalking.org/

     She thinks you’re bitter because you joined the late talker group and your child turned out to be autistic. Because, you know, their children are so not autistic. So not autistic, that they must be tucked away in the home shielded from doctors, school administrators, nosy neighbors, what have you, lest some one brand their totally not autistic child with the A word.

417. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     01:25:56

     Hmmm, I was under the impression that most of the posts were taken from the public Autism-Mercury forum, and the other groups were listed as ones where this kind of experimenting on their children was supported and encouraged. Maybe I am wrong.

     But it still does not excuse the way these children are being treated.

418. 
     Anna
     October 12th, 2009
     01:30:22

     It does seem as though the people who run this website might not really be parents of autistic children.
     I too question the validity of the vaccine claims, and the chelaton therapies which can be dangerous , but I do not find this type of behavior on the internet helpful or infomative for parents who need answers.

     QUOTE:
     What I find sad is that you have nothing better to do with your time than search out 6 years of posts by one person. Do you have your own child with autism at home you can be spending time with? Or how about reaching out to this mother privately and offering advice rather than condemning her publicly.

419. 
     Anna
     October 12th, 2009
     01:39:42

     Anna is not the founder of any natural late talkers group or late talking.org.

420. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     01:59:20

     Huh? What?

     Anna, you are not making any sense. Anyway, if you do want a place to get good answers and you find this site not helpful, may I suggest you try: http://sciencebasedmedicine.or.....nd-autism/

     For the record I do have a disabled adult son, and I have been active online in various disability listservs, newsgroups and forums for over a dozen years.

421. 
     Getgo
     October 12th, 2009
     01:59:36

     The NLT group is a PRIVATE support group. The messages are not public. GuestBlogger must have fraudulently filled out the questionnaire to indicate he/she had a late talking child, then stalked “Mary.”

     The group isn’t for talk about vaccines or any biomedical treatments. In fact, those are prohibited topics. It’s about working and advancing the language skills with their children, and getting evaluations from evaluators who know what they are doing.

     A final note: “Laura” above was asked to leave the group because she also posted private messages on her public blog.

422. 
     Anna
     October 12th, 2009
     02:10:03

     Hmm, I wonder if this is the same Laura person who stalked people on that other blog …and who is now blogging here ?

423. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     02:28:26

     What indications do you have that the messages are from the NaturalLateTalkers group and not any of the others mentioned?

424. 
     Getgo
     October 12th, 2009
     02:34:18

     It’s from “GuestBlogger’s own words:

     “We first meet Mary in October 2003, when her son Saul (born November 2001) was only 22 months of age. She began posting on the group NLT (for a description of the yahoo groups discussed in this article see the section at the end). She stated that her son”

425. 
     Anna
     October 12th, 2009
     02:46:42

     I was following the comments , but if the group is a closed group it is clear what happened here. I followed the link to the NLT and it is clear the blogger is telling false stories about some of the groups.

426. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     02:47:56

     My apologies. Still, this has been out for a bit, why go nuts now?

     I have two sons, the older one has a very severe speech communication disorder and the younger one was a classic late talker as described by Thomas Sowell. They were completely different.

     The older son is still quite disabled, and younger child had a couple years of speech/language therapy from age three to five and was able to enter a regular ed. kindergarten. He has entered college with several credits due to getting good AP test scores. All without the various magic treatments.

     Do you guys encourage the experimenting on your children, or do you try to provide support by explaining special ed. services and how to deal with speech/language therapists?

427. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 12th, 2009
     02:55:11

     Yes, as I have clearly stated somewhat upthread in the comments, I am a member of all the groups I have taken quotes from. Indeed, some of the groups are “private” in that you need a membership to see the posts. But, as I have clearly stated, I am a long-standing member of all these groups. I joined these groups many years ago, when my child with ASD was first diagnosed, when I was first exploring the causes of ASD, and I have retained my membership over all these years. I have not “lied” in order to gain access.

     People, get a grip. There are several thousand members of all these groups. Not all of them are still in the thrall of “biomedical autism treatments” or “my child isn’t really autistic, he’s just a Sowell kid, a viral kid, a yeast kid”, etc. Let’s face it, I’m just one of the myriad members of these groups who have moved away from their cozy group-think. I’m just one of those who is disturbed enough by the postings to actually do something about it.

428. 
     Getgo
     October 12th, 2009
     03:05:46

     Perhaps then you can’t comprehend the meaning of the word “private.” What you did was a huge breech of trust. It’s immoral and unethical. I suspect you know that since you are hiding under “GuestBlogger” instead of using a name.

     We don’t post there to be fodder for your grand theories. We post there for support and to exchange ideas.

     There were easy enough ways to make your points (some of which are quite good ones) without tainting them with your deceits, or trying to harm another parent.

429. 
     Anna
     October 12th, 2009
     03:25:22

     This so called guest blogger is most definitely a disturbed individual.

     These groups are there as support – not for creeps who pretend otherwise and join to stalk individuals.

430. 
     another guest
     October 12th, 2009
     03:30:22

     I know for a fact, that another group was formed because this ” guest blogger” was stalking an individual on the group.
     The same one was stalking another in real life – putting out threats.
     Be careful folks. This is a pretty sick person.

431. 
     Outraged Parent
     October 12th, 2009
     03:51:30

     This article is the height of ridiculous and the “Guest Blogger” clearly deranged.

     I think it’s sad and pathetic that certain folks (Laura aka “Guest Blogger?”) will set out to defame and harass other parents because their child is not what Laura/Guest Blogger thinks that child should be.

     Nauseating, really. However, most folks with half a brain can dismiss this garbage for what it is: insane babbling of a whiny parent who uses their child to get the attention that she so desperately craves.

     You didn’t have the backbone to stand up and get some real answers for your child, so you’re ticked off at the ones who do.

432. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     04:20:12

     Now you guys mentioned a “Laura” that drummed out of the NLT group. Was it because she questioned the therapies, or because of something else.

     Unlike the Autism-Mercury group, I don’t see how the NLT group would be focused on experimental biomedical treatment as opposed to educational and language therapy issues. What would make you claim that she is a “stalker”?

     Are dissenting opinions not allowed on the NLT group? If someone questions therapies like chelation or massive vitamin supplementation, is that supported or does that make them a target for nasty-grams?

     What exactly is the focus of the NLT group that it cannot stand to a certain amount of scrutiny?

433. 
     Getgo
     October 12th, 2009
     04:35:47

     Chris, she was banned because she started her own blog, featuring and mocking the personal messages of people on the natural late talkers board. Kind of like what “GuestBlogger” did on this post.

     Because it’s not the focus of the group, there’s no discussion on vaccines or any biomedical treatments, other than to say, we don’t talk about this, because there’s no science behind it. Some people have left the group because of that…and one supposes that they have moved on to the biomedical groups. Not every group is going to work for every situation, obviously.

     The group focuses on language development, and how to deal with school systems and EI programs and others in the diagnosing business that are ill-equipped to deal with late talkers and are unable to tell the differences between late talking and autism.

434. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     04:46:02

     Okay, that makes some sense.

     But you do realize that “Mary” was also posting on the Autism-Mercury yahoo board, and that Guest Blogger focused on the vast array of biomedical treatments (plus she changed the name). Since the NLT does not focus on biomedical, we can now assume that those posts were taken from the Autism-Mercury board. Because if they were posted on the NLT group, you guys would have obviously told that they were not useful, and not part of the focus of your group.

     I assume that if “Mary” did post that long list of chemicals she was pouring into her child there would be responses cautioning her that it might be dangerous. Do you encourage or discourage discussion of that type? Because if you focus on language development, the biomedical experiments would automatically be off-topic.

435. 
     Getgo
     October 12th, 2009
     04:52:07

     It looks like there are 3 posts from the NLT board….the earlier ones, mentioning a Dx and special ed and the like.

     The biomed stuff is from other groups. Again, for the third time, we don’t talk about that stuff.

436. 
     Chris
     October 12th, 2009
     05:01:47

     Since the focus of this blog posting is about “Mary” doing biomedical experimentation on her son (hence the long list of stuff she subjected him to), then why do you have a bee in your bonnet about it?

     Instead of calling Guest Blogger names and accusing him/her of being someone who was banned, you should be more clearly pointing out that your group does not encourage biomedical treatments (or other medical experimentation), but making it quite clear that your group only discusses diagnoses, education, IEPs, insurance and where to get good speech/language therapy.

     You should be distancing yourself as far away from parents like “Mary” as you possibly can.

437. 
     Dedj
     October 12th, 2009
     06:51:59

     I’d like to thank getgo for clearing a few things up in a (relatively) calm and graceful manner.

     However, others have accused GB of being deranged, disturbed, criminal, a stalker, a liar, fraudulent and worse. GB has already indicated that he/she had legitimate access to the initial posts, thus no ‘theft’ or ‘stalking’ would have been needed to provide the information in the OP.

     If GB has commited acts of stalking that is a seperate issue, not substantiated by accusing him/her of ‘stealing’ information he/she was freely provided with or accusing him/her of ‘stalking’ because they can use a search function.

     At least one member of this board has had personal identifying information deliberately collated and distributed in places any person would have reasonably known would result in harrassment and threats, which in this case it did, including one made in reference to their place of work.

     Other members have been openly smeared in similar fashion to GB. Offensive and derogatory insults towards several of the most prominent members have been slung about here and in places that dicuss this thread.

     I myself have been accused of saying things I did not, for reasons that don’t exist, by people that kept making the accusations even after being corrected publically.

     I have seen accusations of professional misconduct and criminal behaviour being levelled at identified members of this board, I am very glad I do not use my real name.

     I don’t agree with GB’s behaviour, but I fail to see how any person that objects to GB’s actions could not be shocked and horrified at some of the words and actions of some of GB’s critics. Nothing I’ve seen working in mental health or with people with challenging behaviour compares with the severity and intensity of hatred that has been directed at GB and people who were just caught in the crossfire.

     This is my last post in this thread. I suggest it be the last one.

438. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 12th, 2009
     13:46:21

     calm and graceful manner.

     <>>>

     In issues of internet stalking, it is often advised to not give out too much information as to the methods and exactly what this person is doing.
     I agree that putting out this information about someone without backing it up with facts can be questionable so I respect the commentary.
     I can only say, that because this person has stalked people on one board , been asked to leave, does not leave, and fakes introductions to get into private discussion lists, then steals emails, details can’t be given here because it compromises any investigating .
     This is potentially a legal matter or eventually a technical matter ( may or may not be) and it also would have to reveal private matters of individuals who have been stalked by this person.
     I will ask, that if there is a responsible authority on this website , I am happy to discuss it with them, and they can indicate it here with a valid email address.
     Because the problematic person lurks here, and what I know has happened to others, I am not comfortable discussing it further here.

439. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 12th, 2009
     14:11:43

     And my last word. Again ;)

     I see lots of outrage from the NLT and “autism biomedical treatment” communities. But none of it is directed at the Big List™, and no sympathy is given to “Saul” and the fear and pain he must have been subjected to. No outrage at the fact that he has been dosed with an entirely synthetic chemical(OSR), which could be a carcinogen for all we know. No outrage at the dozens of intravenous treatments. No shock at the 50 rounds of chelation, which involves dosages every 4 hours around the clock.

     My sympathies lie with Saul, and with all the other innocent children subjected to these treatments after the encouragement of the echo-chamber of the yahoo group.

440. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 12th, 2009
     14:40:42

     I have sympathies for Saul , but stalking to make a point is problematic and unethical.
     As pointed out before by quite a few people here, these points can be made without faking identities to get into private email lists and stealing emails .
     As mentioned before, if there is a responsible authority who runs the website , please indicate it here.

441. 
     Laura
     October 12th, 2009
     15:03:28

     oh good lord. I’m not a guest blogger. I commend guest blogger for what he has done. If it weren’t for the first hand accounts of “recovered biomed” parents I might have flirted with that path. But I never did, in part because of the wise words of one recovered biomed parent, namely Kristina Chew, whose eloquent and persuasive prose set me straight. This post is a public service. So thank you, guest blogger.

442. 
     Joseph
     October 12th, 2009
     15:25:59

     In a more ideal world, all parents of newly diagnosed autistic children would be handed a pamphlet that warns about the autism quacks, charlatans and profiteers that will try to take advantage of the situation. It would discuss bogus labs that try to convince you that provoked testing means something, and so on.

     I think warning parents about what’s out there is a good thing.

443. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 12th, 2009
     15:52:01

     It is a good thing to warn parents.
     In fact, some groups are started on that premise.
     Warning can be done appropriately , not as an internet stalker.
     A person does not have to mix… claiming one group to do something it does not …. in with other truths to get the point across.
     Unfortunately, the writer on this forum really did not have an agenda of warning parents of an issue – sympathy for Saul is not felt by this blogger – there is another agenda .
     This website ( as a whole )seems to originate as concern for unscientifically proven methods, and crackpot evaluations ,but that really is not the concern of this blogger.
     It is too bad because this behavior does discredit this website.
     I do hope an authority will make itself available in a responsible manner.

444. 
     Getgo
     October 12th, 2009
     16:35:35

     GuestBlogger, if you had any sympathy for Saul, you would have taken a totally different approach. You would not have subjected mom and son to hatred and ridicule on an Internet site by posting actual messages and making it easy to find out who they are.

     I see earlier that you rejected the idea of trying to befriend and counsel the mom. If you’d spent half the energy into that idea that you put combing obsessively through 3,500 messages, I bet you would have found a way to approach the mom where you could have made a real difference in Saul’s life.

     And the fact that you completely misrepresented
     the NLT site pretty much negates all your “research.” If you can’t be trusted on the simple definition of the NLT group, how can we believe that anything else you write is true?

445. 
     passionlessDrone
     October 12th, 2009
     18:01:27

     Hello friends –
     My hypocrisy sensor just exploded.

     My sympathies lie with Saul, and with all the other innocent children subjected to these treatments after the encouragement of the echo-chamber of the yahoo group.

     A simple reading of the original post reveals nothing to support this argument, and lots to support that what we are observing is a vindicative person with a couple of axes to grind, an itch needing to be scratched so badly that they are willing to comb through thousands of posts to come up with the orignal post. Imagine how many other peoples posts were read through; especially, if Mary is not an unusual case; as is posited by Guest Blogger. Ten thousand? Twenty thousand? All for the children?

     At least one third of the post is concerning vaccines; even though we are given absolutely no evidence that Mary believes her son’s condition was related to vaccination.

     Whats more, Guest Blogger appears to be someone who takes perverse pleasure if a child is suffering, so long as he/she disagrees with how this parent has tried to help her child.

     Finally, a year later, she posted the preamble to this article (see box at top). How’s that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?

     Can you imagine the unmitigated outrage on this board I were to take some of the very difficult, and indeed heartfelt posts from a blogger many of us know, whose son continues to face many challenges, one who has stuck with ‘traditional’ therapies? Imagine if I were to construct a narrative painting a picture of moving to different states, countless hours of ABA, speech therapies, and IEP meetings that showed that even after all of that work, her child still have very difficult days, and I concluded it with this:

     “How’s that “ABA” working out for you, semi-anonymized autism blogger?”

     What we have here is absolutely no different. This didn’t have anything to do with kids, but rather, everything to do with a bitter person trying to dispel their own demons by scavenging through the trash of another parent and vomiting up the self righteous results while pattig himself/herself on the back.

     – pD

446. 
     Outraged Parent
     October 13th, 2009
     01:31:37

     Well said, passionlessDrone, well said.

447. 
     Chris
     October 13th, 2009
     03:00:58

     Still, whatever you feel about how the information was obtained, it does not make doing medical experiments on a child any more valid.

     You may hate the messenger, but listen to the message: These biomedical treatments are not harmless, and there is no proven benefit for the risk the child is being exposed to.

448. 
     Steve D
     October 13th, 2009
     05:18:57

     Hi pD – Your statement of opinion rests precariously on the entirely false premise that ‘traditional’ and ‘biomedical’ treatments/therapies deserve the same consideration in any discussion of either safety or efficacy. Are you seriously trying to make a comparison between something like speech therapy (‘traditional’) and IV chelation? Between selecting the LRE and sticking a nicotine patch on a child?
     Perhaps while at the hypocrisy meter shop, you ought to have them take a look at your moral compass.

     Take care!
     -sD

449. 
     Sullivan
     October 13th, 2009
     06:51:15

     pD—
     go ahead and be critical if you chose, but please don’t mischaracterize the tone of this blog post.

     It is very easy to dismiss a post like this as “trashing another parent” or “self-righteous” or “bitter”.

     In essense you are doing exactly what you incorrectly blame guest-blogger for doing: lashing out in place of dialogue.

     As guest blogger points out, reading some of these groups is an extremely painful experience. Reading about children who suffer repeated adverse reactions to what amounts to poorly thought out, experimental treatments is something very painful for many of us parents to read. In the forums I used to read, parents who participated tended to accept the idea that adverse reactions are some sort of “die off” reaction and/or that adverse reactions are expected as a sign of the therapy working.

     If you think that anyone gets “perverse pleasure” out of this I would first ask “where did you get your mind-reading helmet” and then ask “do you think you can get it recalibrated”. You are way off base there.

450. 
     Joseph
     October 13th, 2009
     13:17:20

     Imagine if I were to construct…

     “How’s that “ABA” working out for you, semi-anonymized autism blogger?”

     Imagining is not necessary. You just did, pD. We all know who the blogger is.

     The situation is quite different, because medical experimentation on children of the kind Mary has been carrying out is foolish, whereas following the recommendations of the autism research community can be assumed to be a prudent course of action.

     (Not that I think the evidence base of ABA is of much better quality than that of biomed quackery. It is more substantial in size, but that’s it.)

451. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 13th, 2009
     19:11:42

     Quote :
     Still, whatever you feel about how the information was obtained, it does not make doing medical experiments on a child any more valid. ...

     I think most all here agree about the experiments and the controversy .
     There is nothing worse than messing around with bio-meds and overmedicating in other ways – a different but sometimes related subject I am familiar as a concern.
     But I can see some are so passionate against bio-meds they are willing to bypass ethical issues and not consider it important when a stalker does this – they think the message so important it doesn’t matter what someone does, and whether they mix false reporting in with the truth of their favorite hated subject.
     The problem with mixing falsehood with truth is it ultimately discredits the actual point for those less familiar with the subject, and it is important some pointed it out.
     Other blogs are covering the issue sufficiently and staying within ethical boundaries and working to report accurately.
     By overlooking unethical behavior we eventually get other types of false reporing.
     As of now we are getting 1 in 100 statistical reporting for autism. Some are so passionate to get the word out about autism, they are willing to stretch their reporting .
     Does it point out autism exists – sure, but in the long run, it is not a good thing to promote innacuracies just because it gets one’s passionate subject in the headline.

452. 
     Guest
     October 13th, 2009
     19:23:25

     “As guest blogger points out, reading some of these groups is an extremely painful experience.”

     I think it is pretty obvious by the tone this so called ” blogger” was in no pain at all.
     In fact, stalkers get a perverse pleasure out of doing this kind of thing.
     They just chose this venue because they could get away with it because there are those here against bio-meds .

453. 
     Chris
     October 13th, 2009
     20:02:01

     Guest:
     

     They just chose this venue because they could get away with it because there are those here against bio-meds .

     Why should people not be against unnecessary and sometimes risky treatments on children? What is to be gained by handing money over to someone to perform medical experiments on children? What is wrong with pointing out that desperate parents are being fleeced by quacks, and their children are paying a price with possible ill effects to their health?

     Many of the treatments on the list are not harmless.

454. 
     Chris
     October 13th, 2009
     20:21:10

     By the way, the information was not necessarily obtained by “stalking”. Most of it was obtained on a public forum.

     Even you go not into the archives of the Autism-Mercury Yahoo group you can find many more examples of children be subjected to these medical experiments. There are even public displays of these medical experiments posted on YouTube. I’ve read examples of this kind of medical experiments on other listservs. Even Age of Autism has articles of parents describing the medical experiments that they are subjecting their children to, from various drug treatments to stem cells being injected into children in other countries. Some of these medical experiments were even part a federal court testimony!

     What is wrong with pointing out that these are children, and that using untested and unscientific medical procedures with real risks is wrong? Are you guys just now finding out that there are parents who cringe at the thought of what you people are putting your children through? Is it uncomfortable being under that glare of a light showing the tortures these children must endure?

455. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 13th, 2009
     21:19:49

     Part of the above quote is out of context.
     to point out the context again was – it was intent of :stalking and mixing truth with untruth:...that chose this venue .
     The truth of unnecessary and risky treatments is :not: the intent for choosing this venue – .....that was the :truth: part.

     The :untruth: part was stalking , lack of ethics, and telling falsehoods about other points and misrepresentation .
     As stated multiple times in the posts in which part of the quote was taken – the problem is understood and recognized about unnecessary treatments.
     But, mixing falshoods with that ….to a passionate audience about the subject of bio-meds( and rightly so to be passionate) ... unfortunately some of that same passionate audience overlooks other ethical problems in the mix and approves stalking and overlooks misrepresentations.
     Ultimately, people who know much less about all of this subject matter in the end move along with truth and untruth.
     The same pattern has created sloppy diagnostics, sloppy statistics, and rumors about vaccines.
     It is important to stick to the truth the whole way in intent , and stay ethical .

     Why should people not be against unnecessary and sometimes risky treatments on children? What is to be gained by handing money over to someone to perform medical experiments on children? What is wrong with pointing out that desperate parents are being fleeced by quacks, and their children are paying a price with possible ill effects to their health?

     Many of the treatments on the list are not harmless.

     Read more: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co......z0Tqeoi8T5

456. 
     Prometheus
     October 13th, 2009
     21:32:48

     “Anna” comments:

     Sounds like the so called ” guest blogger” is a certified wack job posting people’s personal information on the internet. I am not sure what is worse – getting misinformation on the internet, or posting personal information to defame and slander individuals.

     Anna has it backwards – the person who posted Mary’s “personal information” on the Internet was Mary, who put it on a forum open to anyone who cares to sign up. And, since it was all quoted verbatim, the only person who could be accused of “slandering” or “defaming” Mary would be Mary, herself.

     In a similar vein, pD emotes:

     This didn’t have anything to do with kids, but rather, everything to do with a bitter person trying to dispel their own demons by scavenging through the trash of another parent and vomiting up the self righteous results while pattig himself/herself on the back.

     In both cases, I am reminded of something a lawyer friend of mine was told in law school:

     “If the law is on your side, pound the law; if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if neither are on your side, pound the table!”

     For all the sound and fury, this is nothing more than table-pounding.

     “Guest Blogger” used the public writings of a parent – without revealing her full name – to make a point. That point – for those who missed it amid the misplaced and/or feigned outrage – was that parents are being convinced, by “biomed” practitioners and even other parents, to give their children unproven, often useless and occasionally dangerous “treatments”.

     “Biomedical” treatments for autism are promoted as mild, generally harmless and very effective. Now – as this ‘blog post reveals – there is evidence, from the very parents using “biomed”, that these treatments are causing harm and – quite frankly – aren’t working. THAT is important news that – for some reason – isn’t getting talked about very much on the “biomed” forums.

     If pD and others think that people who read this ‘blog would be up in arms about someone claiming out that ABA is a waste of time and might even be harmful, they obviously haven’t been reading for long. That topic has come up more than once. Same for medications like methylphenidate (Ritalin) and risperidone (Risperdal).

     The contrast between the relatively mild response to people “trashing” ABA, Ritalin and Risperdal and the spittle-spraying, hair-pulling, frothing-at-the-mouth response to showing evidence that “biomed” treatments aren’t working and are causing serious problems is quite revealing.

     I seriously doubt that any of this pathos is due to concerns for “Mary” or her privacy. I’ve seen the glee that greets skeptics being “outed” on that forum too often to believe that they have a solemn regard for a person’s privacy.

     I also seriously doubt that this has anything to do with “Mary” being “disrespected” – the things that “Guest Blogger” said were far more mild than the language I’ve seen used toward skeptics and other “non-believers”.

     I do think it has a lot to do with people feeling – deep in their “gut” – that “biomed” isn’t as good as they’ve been led to believe. They fear – perhaps subconsciously – that they’ve been duped and they will do what it takes to make those skeptical voices stop echoing their inner fears.

     Think about it – if some stranger wrote in a ‘blog that you were “ruining your health” by drinking tea, or that giving your children milk would “make their teeth rot out and turn them into psychopaths” (BTW, I’ve seen both on the Internet), you’d probably just laugh and move on. Yet, if someone says that “biomed” treatments for autism aren’t working and are causing serious problems in children, based on the reports of a dedicated user of “biomed”, the fit hits the shan.

     Think about it.

     Nobody on this ‘blog has the power to stop a parent from using “biomed” on their autistic child. Nobody on this ‘blog can keep a single parent from discovering “biomedical” treatments for autism on the Internet. Nobody on this ‘blog can outlaw, regulate or restrict the use of “biomedical” treatments.

     So where’s the outrage coming from, if not the fear that faith in “biomed” has been misplaced? With all this heat and smoke, there must be a fire somewhere.

     Prometheus

457. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 13th, 2009
     21:50:42

     “prometheus”
     You missed a lot of the thread – the point was already made that biomeds is a recognized problem.
     Being unethical and stalking , and mixing falshoods with truth, eventually leads to warping the truth of the issue . That does not mean that the issue of bio-meds as a problem is lost.
     Just as there are warped statistics for headlines.
     And because some parents didn’t recognize autism in their children early, it has lead to blown up statistics so those possible others don’t miss it. Some people know they are being unethical by warping things, but they overlook it because they want their issue in the headline. There are other reasons as well, but this is only part of the issue.

458. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 13th, 2009
     21:53:43

     the way, the information was not necessarily obtained by “stalking”. Most of it was obtained on a public forum.

     Stalking is stalking when “some” is obtained on a private and public forum.

459. 
     Kwombles
     October 13th, 2009
     22:14:07

     “Stalking is defined as “the willful, malicious and repeated following and harassing of another person.”

     That does not appear to be the case here.

460. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 13th, 2009
     23:17:38

     This same issue has happened on other blogs

461. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 13th, 2009
     23:26:15

     As stated before, details of where else this has occured won’t be discussed here. Anyone who is a responsible website owner can see what is going on at face value, and can go upthread to read my suggestion for a valid email.

462. 
     Getgo
     October 13th, 2009
     23:41:58

     As mentioned many times, some of the messages posted WERE NOT on public forums. It was a private forum that never discusses biomedical treatments because the group doesn’t support them.

     It is NEVER OK to pull out private messages onto a public forum. That IS stalking.

     And because “GuestBlogger” mispresents that private forum, it casts doubt on the entire blog, and this site.

463. 
     passionlessDrone
     October 14th, 2009
     00:30:38

     Hi Prometheus –

     “Biomedical” treatments for autism are promoted as mild, generally harmless and very effective. Now – as this ‘blog post reveals – there is evidence, from the very parents using “biomed”, that these treatments are causing harm and – quite frankly – aren’t working.

     Can you substantiate that we have evidence of harm as a result of biomedical treatments from Mary’s posts? Which posting constitutes this supposed ‘evidence of biomedical treatments causing harm? How do we know that out of the 3495 posts or so which Guest Blogger decided not to post, there weren’t many where she assigned improvements in her child to biomedical treatments?

     I also note with some amusement how far the singular of annectode slides along the scale of meaningful data when it is in alignment with your position.

     If pD and others think that people who read this ‘blog would be up in arms about someone claiming out that ABA is a waste of time and might even be harmful, they obviously haven’t been reading for long. That topic has come up more than once. Same for medications like methylphenidate (Ritalin) and risperidone (Risperdal).

     It has everything to do with launching a personal attack. I’ve been reading a long time, and I’ve seen a lot of valid criticisms of biomedical treatments; but I have never, ever seen a case of someone so gleefull about a child who continues to struggle. Do you think there is something funny about Mary’s post that opens this thread? Which part? If you knew Mary personally, and she poured her heart out to you, regardless of your thoughts on how she tried to help her child, would you tell this to her face?

     Hows that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?

     How many times have I seen you type a refrain on the statement that you believe that the doctors and parents involved in biomedical treatments believe they are doing the right thing; but they simply are wrong? Is this the way you would treat a friend of yours who was well meaning, but tragically incorrect? Is this your bedside manner? Is this how you would express your concern for their child?

     Just because you claim to have seen “much worse” in forums where skeptics were kicked out, something I don’t necessarily doubt, only bears importance if we have evidence that the people on this blog are the same ones you saw elsewhere. The fact that the Internet is full of jerks is no reason to become one yourself, or defend one.

     As for the rest of your armchair psychology you’ve got a line and your sticking with it.

     – pD

464. 
     Prometheus
     October 14th, 2009
     00:49:36

     Getgo,

     Take a look again at your conception of “private communication”. All of the forums listed, whether “public” or “private”, have thousands of members. I suspect that a lawyer (and even common sense) would tell you that there is no expectation of privacy in such a setting.

     Even private e-mails can be published by the recipient (and have, by a number of “biomed”-friendly ‘bloggers) without violating the law – although it is considered a breach of etiquette.

     “Stalking” is a very specific crime, defined as:

     “Criminal activity consisting of the repeated following and harassing of another person.”

     I fail to see any “repeated following” or “repeated harrassing” in this post. Calling this “stalking” is just another smokescreen to direct attention away from the message and onto the messenger.

     You should also know that accusing somebody of a crime can leave you open to a libel suit. In fact, falsely accusing someone of a crime – even if it is simply hyperbole – is the most open-and-shut type of libel case.

     You might want to consider apologizing to “Guest Blogger”.

     Prometheus

465. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 14th, 2009
     00:59:20

     Hi Passionless Drone and Getgo, here is an important link.
     Anyways, what I wrote above still stands and hopefully someone responsible will show up.
     From the link below, you can see some of the pattern here and elsewhere from before…....

     http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll-tactics.html

466. 
     passionlessDrone
     October 14th, 2009
     01:03:16

     Hi Sullivan –

     It is very easy to dismiss a post like this as “trashing another parent” or “self-righteous” or “bitter”.

     I will admit to being riled up. I can honestly say, however, I’ve never seen a parent attacked like that; especially here. I believe, pretty much before my time, Mr. Best attacked Kev in a similar fasion, and that was fucked up and wrong. Maybe it happens all the time in other areas. (?)

     As guest blogger points out, reading some of these groups is an extremely painful experience. Reading about children who suffer repeated adverse reactions to what amounts to poorly thought out, experimental treatments is something very painful for many of us parents to read. In the forums I used to read, parents who participated tended to accept the idea that adverse reactions are some sort of “die off” reaction and/or that adverse reactions are expected as a sign of the therapy working.

     Well, in my case, as I’ve recounted many times, I witnessed a die off reaction in my son, to antifungals. It was a wild few days, and just happened to coincide with the most miraculous change in his (and my) life. He went from being extremely self injurious (30/40 times / day) to once a day, to never in a course of a few weeks after starting Nystatin. I don’t know, our DAN had seen hundreds of children by that time, smelled a bowel movement he took in her office, and immediately declared he had yeast, which was subsequently confirmed by diagnostics. Was it experimentation? I don’t know, but I do know that we went from the absolute darkest place to somewhere where I could see hope.

     Do you have a mechanism to determine that my observation of a die off as a reaction is a drug interaction, but my observations of seemingly miraculous improvements are coincidental?

     It is painful for me to think about parents who don’t pursue safe biomedical treatments, like the ones that I perceive to have changed my son’s life, as a result of a highly skewed representation of biomedical treatments. That bugs the hell out of me, but I’m pretty much used to it. In this case, however, Guest Blogger decided to twist the knive by taunting Saul’s mother.

     You might be surpized to know, that I do believe, unfortunately, the characterization of ‘poorly thought out experimentation’ is accurate in some instances, but in many others, is not. It becomes difficult at this point, as again, we have only a very highly targeted view of what Saul’s condition(s) actually are/were.

     If you think that anyone gets “perverse pleasure” out of this I would first ask “where did you get your mind-reading helmet” and then ask “do you think you can get it recalibrated”. You are way off base there.

     Hows that “biomedical treatment” going, Mary?

     Is this the kind of dialouge you feel I’m not engaging in? You don’t think this is a taunt?

     As far as mind reading goes, Guest Blogger has given Mary a long distance diagnosis of unable to come to terms with her son’s diagnosis and Prometheus believes any opposition to criticism is the result of cognitive dissonance. I would appear to have some company. LOL.

     – pD

467. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 14th, 2009
     01:06:36

     I can easily differ with you on the legal issue and I know first hand that taking emails off of a closed list can be a civil issue in court. It is merely an issue of what the private individual affected decides to do.
     As I advise anyone here if it happened to you personally , keep records if there is a constant trail of this behavior of stalking.

468. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 14th, 2009
     01:09:31

     AS mentioned before, this issue of stalking and taking private emails and publishing them should now be only a discussion with a responsible web owner.

469. 
     Joseph
     October 14th, 2009
     01:10:44

     As I noted previously, quoting from the EOHarm mailing list is considered kosher, and members are advised about its status:

     While the EOHarm list is membership moderated, it is a political and public forum. All postings to this list should be considered public, and not private or confidential statements.

470. 
     Prometheus
     October 14th, 2009
     01:11:45

     pD,

     Are you aware of who it was that said “How’s that ‘biomedical treatment’ working out for you, Mary?”

     I’ll give you a hint – it was “Mary”, herself. Go ahead, read the post again. It’s a few paragraphs below the long list of treatments “Saul” had received.

     Now, some people might think that you owe an apology to “Guest Blogger”.

     I read “Guest Blogger’s” post and felt that it showed sympathy for the plight of “Mary” and her son.

     Prometheus

471. 
     Dedj
     October 14th, 2009
     01:15:04

     Indeed, none of tha accusations of stalking appear to follow any of the contemporary or archaic definitions of stalking. Indeed, if GB had legitimate access to the forums under discussion, he/she would have had to do no more than use the search function. As Mary appears to use the same distinct handle for more or less everything, this would have been a simple matter of a one word search.

     As an aside, I have seen it be alledged that GB ‘exposed’ Mary. Thus far, no google search or otherwise has turned up anything about Mary (not even the original posts) without having to include additional information that was brought to light or directly provided by Mary’s supporters, thanks to the habit of some of them of linking to this thread on replies to her posts. If people have identified Mary using just the information provided by GB then they are either google-geniuses or had prior knowledge of where to narrow the search to, meaning they already had legitimate access to the above forums.

     This is in direct contrast to the behaviour of some of her supporters of collating and cross-posting personally identifiable information with intent that the information be used against that person. This person has received repeated support for that action from several members of several of the above mentioned forums.

     However, spreading rumours about a person over the internet IS defined as stalking in the most recent Department of Justice National Crime Survey.

472. 
     Dedj
     October 14th, 2009
     01:40:58

     “I can easily differ with you on the legal issue and I know first hand that taking emails off of a closed list can be a civil issue in court. It is merely an issue of what the private individual affected decides to do.”

     I’m aware of cases where this has happened. However, all cases I’m aware of involved either deliberate redirection of email (as with the Delta Air case), unauthorised access to email accounts (hacking or using someone elses account), violating copyright (as with the Craiglist case) or the emails were obtained through other illict means.

     In all cases, the person was someone other than the intended recipient, or the list was closed by legal agreement (as some of the ones I’m on are), or the list was in no way similar to a yahoo group, in that you email (although yahoo allows you to post directly using the website) the yahoo server but it displays it as a post.

     Not only is it questionable that GB had non-legitimate access to the ‘emails’, it’s also questionable that the ‘emails’ remain as emails once on the yahoo server, and it’s also questionable that the forums count as ‘closed-list’ given that any message is freely available to any member once on the server.

473. 
     AutismNewsBeat
     October 14th, 2009
     01:41:29

     Are you aware of who it was that said “How’s that ‘biomedical treatment’ working out for you, Mary?”

     I’ll give you a hint – it was “Mary”, herself. Go ahead, read the post again.

     pD?

474. 
     Joseph
     October 14th, 2009
     01:45:19

     The various “outings” of Orac over at AoA might be considered a form of stalking. Somehow I doubt those complaining in this thread came to his defense. (Not that AoA would’ve published any such comments.)

475. 
     Getgo
     October 14th, 2009
     01:56:39

     An anonymous person—i.e. “GuestBlogger”—can’t be libeled.

     And I find it hard to believe than anyone who heard/saw that their posts had been gone through and aggregated in such an egregious manner wouldn’t consider themself stalked and threatened.

     GuestBlogger owes “Mary” the apology, and the members of the NLT board an apology.

476. 
     passionlessDrone
     October 14th, 2009
     02:11:48

     Hi Prometheus –

     I’ll give you a hint – it was “Mary”, herself. Go ahead, read the post again. It’s a few paragraphs below the long list of treatments “Saul” had received.

     From the OP:

     Finally, a year later, she posted the preamble to this article (see box at top). How’s that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?

     Really? Mary wrote the sentences above? She referenced herself in third person, and indeed, used the opportunity to ask herself a rhetorical question in third person? Is this sentence in a blockquote somewhere I’m missing? If I hit Ctrl-F, type, ‘working’, that’s the first instance of the word I get, and it isn’t blockquoted.

     I suppose, if Guest Blogger actually is, Mary, this could be possible. I’ll state for the record right now, Guest Blogger, is you are the mother of Saul, I retract all of my accusations and anger towards you. You have every right to post your own thoughts. Now that’s an opportunity for some remote psychiatry! What is your diagnosis?

     The irony here is so very rich that someone who has accused me of not reading very much didn’t bother to read the actual post. That AutismNewsBeat would jump in, also without feeling the need to actually read the post isn’t surprizing. Keep it up.

     – pD

477. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 14th, 2009
     02:49:51

     To the moderators of the NLT group, posting here under various ‘nyms:

     As you well know, discussion of “biomedical treatments” were not always banned on the group. A simple use of the search function reveals

     GFCF - 178 posts
     DMG - 308 posts
     chelation – 190 posts.

     The last search is revealing. Many the recent posts containing this word are “file” postings, warning that there is no scientific evidence to support chelation for late talking. Thank you to the moderators for taking this stance. However, this rule was laid down on October 21, 2006, where “Ongoing posts that continue to discuss controversial, unproven methods or “unproven
     causes of late talking” will not be tolerated. This includes: vaccines, chelation, and any posts with obvious “agendas” to promote unproven methodologies or with political agendas.”

     Prior to that date, there WAS active discussion of “biomedical treatments” for late talking, including chelation, hair tests, and discussion of vaccines as a cause of late talking on NLT. Since the group has existed since April 2001, it has tolerated these discussions for the majority of its existence. In particular, these discussions were continuing when Mary was an active member of the list.

     I’d also like to ask you fine ladies of NLT, where exactly is even one example of me “telling falsehoods about other points”? Oh, let me guess, maybe it’s my opinion about NLT as expresed: “Comment: This list supports those in deep denial about their child’s autism.”

478. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 14th, 2009
     03:01:24

     pD, you are quite right, I wrote the phrase – How’s that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?”

     And just to be totally honest, I do regret writing that – it added a tone of gloating to the post, which was not my intention. Believe me, gloating was the last thing on my mind. I feel sorry for Saul in particular. But I also feel sorry for Mary, who I see as a very well-intentioned parent who has been caught up in the group think of the yahoo group. These groups encourage parents to keep trying one thing after another, keep trying longer, and to keep trying more and more extreme treatments. Mary is a victim as well. The real bad guys in this sorry tale are the guys making the money off Mary, and inflicting fear and pain upon Saul.

479. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 14th, 2009
     03:54:42

     As we can see, there is stalking going on.
     And misreporting.

480. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 14th, 2009
     04:02:50

     This so called “guest blogger” really is such a classic troll.
     The same individual would whine and complain if there was too much moderating- trolls take any stance there is just to be annoying.
     Questions do come up on lists and things are handled as they come up. Everyone knows this on discussion lists.
     Misreporting and lies are part of trolls and internet stalkers methods and this proves it.
     If anyone will notice – this troll wormed its way back onto a list they were likely thrown off originally.
     It is clear they are on there to stalk individuals – why would anyone let someone like this remain on a private list?
     It is an obvious case of deception

     Prior to that date, there WAS active discussion of “biomedical treatments” for late talking, including chelation, hair tests, and discussion of vaccines as a cause of late talking on NLT. Since

481. 
     Chris
     October 14th, 2009
     04:30:50

     Dear “A quick note by another guest”, please read this summation of federal court testimony: http://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/184/ . Then tell me exactly why you would defend the medical experimentation on that child. You will note that the testimony shows he did suffer from those treatments.

     Explain again why you are defending people who do that to children.

     As far as “trolls” go, I am pretty sure you are posting under several names, and making spurious statements: the very definition of troll.

482. 
     Chris
     October 14th, 2009
     05:06:30

     I assume you are from NLT, and if your children really are “Natural Late Talkers” you would not really need to pour chemicals in your children.

     As I said before, my younger son was a late talker. His delay in language was noticed by my older son’s speech therapist (my older son was diagnosed with childhood apraxia of speech, which is completely different). In one summer of speech/language therapy my younger son gained almost a year of vocabulary. No drugs required.

     That is a natural late talker.

     What advice so you give to parents whose children are like my older son: children with speech disorders that do not get better on their own, or need the at least ten years of speech therapy? Or to parents whose kids actually are autistic?

     Do you tell them to wait and see?

     And if you really do discourage the bio-med stuff (and it looks like you don’t), why, oh, why would you defend this kind of treatment of a child (from the federal court testimony of the link I posted before):

     Dr. McCabe testified no good data demonstrates that chelation therapy works to treat autism. Nevertheless, approximately 30-40% of Dr. Bradstreet’s patients were chelated during his treatment of them, a figure that remained consistent over the five years preceding the hearing. ...... In spite of the fact that none of C.’s tests for mercury was high, and C. responded poorly to chelation, Dr. Bradstreet ordered numerous rounds of chelation therapy.

     That is child experimentation and torture. There is no defense for that. Also, that is publicly available testimony, open for all to see.

     Tell us exactly why that is okay dokay. Okay?

483. 
     A quick note by another guest
     October 14th, 2009
     06:14:27

     If you read my post, you would know I was not defending anyone like that.
     It is interesting that you keep insisting on it.
     As far as trolls go, one of the descriptions of trolls is insisting on a point that was already made and cleared up countless times.I think it is quite clear here who really is posting under different identities.

484. 
     passionlessDrone
     October 14th, 2009
     13:35:18

     Hi Guest Blogger –
     Nicely done. We are a community with more than enough pain, even if some of it is self induced, expression of understanding and sympathy are always appreciated.

     For the record, I think that many of the treatments that Mary has tried on her son have fundamentally sound scientific rationale, while others don’t, and indeed, a few strike me as poorly thought out experimentation.

     – pD

485. 
     Chris
     October 14th, 2009
     15:23:09

     pD:
     

     For the record, I think that many of the treatments that Mary has tried on her son have fundamentally sound scientific rationale, while others don’t, and indeed, a few strike me as poorly thought out experimentation.

     Like the chelation?

     So called “guest”, you have a bee in your bonnet. If you do not support the medical experimentation on children, you should not be worried about the posts from NLT. It seems most of the medical experimentation (like chelation) is being discussed on the Autism-Mercury Yahoo board, which is public.

     It has also been discussed on the Age of Autism website, and in federal court.

     Now stop derailing the discussion to your own petty issues with the NLT board.

486. 
     Guest Blogger
     October 14th, 2009
     16:40:08

     They are a sensitive bunch on NLT. The archives of the group have been deleted. I guess that the moderators couldn’t stand any exposure of the group to the light of day.

487. 
     passionlessDrone
     October 14th, 2009
     17:30:55

     Hi Chris –
     Chelation is a difficult one. Obviously, these children have problems processing metals, as Sullivan and I discussed on a separate post on this board, here.

     I know about ten families who do biomed, and none of them have been as aggressive with the chelation, not even close, as Mary was (or at least, as aggressive as posited by Guest Blogger). I personally don’t think that metals cause autism, but do think that there is evidence from multiple avenues that having autism means you are more likely to have problems with metals. If you are holding onto them, the question becomes is it valid to try to bring them out, given the unknown nature of what is going on there? The other very unfortunate refrain in this type of discussion is the inability to decouple thimerosal from a more generalized problem of metal retention.

     Also, the OSR is pretty scary stuff. I’ve recommended to one family that they stay away from it.

     Pioglitazone has some very creepy possible side effects and I guess it would depend on the child’s diagnostic profile and ability to communicate as towards a decision there. There is / was a large scale trial on this underway at one point; a small trial of it seemed to show improvements. The study design can be argued with some validity, but the desired effects of pioglitazone, a reduction in inflammation have scientific rationale. It’s the other stuff that gets in the way that is scary to me.

     The galantamine is one we tried, but it upset my sons stomach and we haven’t been back to that class of drug. But there are many studies using a variety of similar drugs that have larger scale trials in neurodegenrative diseases with targets that have parallels in autism. There are also small scale trials of galantamine and similar drugs in children with autism that show improvements, again, however, suffering from pilot study designs.

     Other than that I see tons of things trying to address gastro function; again without knowing the specifics of the child, it is difficult to know how appropriate these might have been. See my response to Sullivan above concerning my own experiences with anti fungal agents.

     There are also a lot of supplements. Many of them I think have some level of rationale, i.e., clinical studies showing deficiencies in either the vitamin, or metabolic process. A few have limited trial support with varying methodological problems / strengths. Again, unfortunately, we have no way of knowing what diagnostic tests were run on Saul, information which would provide good information as towards if these supplements made sense or not.

     For example, as I discussed previously with Sullivan in another thread, my son’s zinc / copper ratio was found to be very skewed via LabCorp testing. Our DAN at the time recommended zinc supplementation; we commenced and noticed some old maids tale style improvements in his physical status and behaviors, i.e., no more half moon circles under his fingertips and a drastic reduction in nail biting. Subsequent testing revealed that his zinc levels were increased, though still at the low end of normal.

     Was this experimentation? I don’t know; but I do know that three years later, a study from Pittsburg found the same thing in children with autism, skewed copper to zinc ratios. So either my DAN doctor made a wild unsupported guess on our second visit, or, alternatively, she had actually run enough blood tests on children with autism to identify that indeed, zinc and copper ratios were imbalanced.

     Does that help?

     – pD

488. 
     Joseph
     October 14th, 2009
     17:59:08

     I personally don’t think that metals cause autism, but do think that there is evidence from multiple avenues that having autism means you are more likely to have problems with metals.

     After controlling for diet, urbanicity (and maybe pica)? Truth is there’s not a single one.

489. 
     Prometheus
     October 14th, 2009
     18:59:50

     pD,

     You’re correct – I misread the sentence.

     Prometheus

490. 
     dr treg
     October 14th, 2009
     19:51:56

     It may not be the intake or excretion of metals that is important in autism, but the metal in metalloproteases which are involved in and influence the immunogenic response within the brain in autism.
     Metalloproteases (MMPs)are zinc dependent endopeptidases. MMMPs degrade extra-cellular proteins and activate or inactivate cytokines amongst other actions including morphogenesis and angiogenesis.
     MMPs can be inhibited by chelators.
     MMPs can be inhibited by doxycycline and minocycline.
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.....proteinase
     There is an oo-going trial of minocycline treatment of autism.
     http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/sep2006/nimh-07.htm
     Chelation treatment may be effective because of the effect on MMPs. Best not to exclude chelation therapy until conventionally studied. Might miss a piece of the puzzle

491. 
     Joseph
     October 15th, 2009
     00:33:36

     Or it can be the autism fairy. It hasn’t been ruled out, has it?

492. 
     Chris
     October 15th, 2009
     00:47:03

     pD, metals is just a broad category. Perhaps if you had some actual data it would be more tenable. Though the problem with chelation and other treatments is that they screw with essential metals like calcium, potassium and possibly iron. Trust me when I say you do not want to muck with the electrolytes of a kid with a seizure disorder.

493. 
     Mary Ann
     October 20th, 2009
     14:30:20

     The treaments that people are using on their kids saddens me. The harm and the hurt they cause them – they treat them as though they are diseased – why not accept them as they are? My son is Autistic and I could never put him through some of the treatments I have heard some parents put their kids through. My son is not high fuctioning Autistic and I certainly never used any freak treatments to get him there. I think these treatments cause more harm then good.

494. 
     Mary Ann
     October 20th, 2009
     16:17:01

     Correction on my comment, my son IS high fuctioning Autistic

495. 
     Outraged Parent
     October 21st, 2009
     02:43:23

     Laura’s claims are positively inaccurate. I have been a member of the Natural Late Talkers group for the last 3 years. I have also taken my son for many evaluations by multiple pediatricians, Early Intervention, and a very reputable hospital’s autism program. All three have ruled out autism completely (especially now that he is older). He has, however, been diagnosed with Mixed Expressive/Receptive Language Disorder, which is something that the NLT group is no stranger to. In fact, they commonly point out to new members that they ought to mention it to the evaluators. I have found a wonderful community of folks who only want what is best for their child. The vast majority of these folks HAVE their children in good, solid speech therapy and/or occupational therapy programs. As with any group of 3000+ members, you will occasionally have the person who is “in denial” or enlisting the help of quack doctors and treatments, but please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

     The group does NOT endorse biomedical treatments nor are the vast majority of the members “in denial” about their child’s supposed autism. They are a group of folks who have simply questioned the system’s methods for diagnosing autism and have chosen to pursue the best course of action for their child. This does NOT mean that they will dismiss the idea of autism completely. The goal of this group is to seek ACCURATE diagnosis. Not to deny their child has a problem.

     If anyone wants a real description of the group’s objectives, just check out their website: http://www.naturallatetalkers.com. It is brief, but I think you’ll get an idea of the overall goal of the group.

496. 
     Chris
     October 21st, 2009
     06:46:27

     Dear Outraged Parent: Laura has made exactly one comment on this thread. Those on the NLT group do not have autistic children*, and biomedical treatments are (as I have been told) are actively discouraged.

     Since the topic of this blog posting was the use (or overuse) of biomedical treatments on an autistic child, your comments are completely off topic.

     You should find another way to channel your outrage.**

     • Having one of each (autistic/apraxic and NLT) I know they are completely different.

     ** I have several suggestions, but I don’t think you’d appreciate them. Personally I have found weed therapy and prune therapy to to be very effective. One reason why I had very well pruned roses and espaliered apple trees during IEP periods. Also, since it was usually in November—- I was surprised how many tulip bulbs I could plant. Who knew one mom could dig so many holes in a day!? Oh, and another suggestion… never plan other parent/teacher conversations on the day of a two hour IEP meeting. I was so loopy after having the teacher conferences for two kids, that I spaced out of the IEP meeting and was surprised when son’s speech therapy time was doubled.

497. 
     notindenial
     October 21st, 2009
     17:41:42

     So, who is cashing in on Autism?? You say those trying to HELP these children via biomeds?? Oh I must disagree. You are targeting the wrong group.

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded

     And you say the biomed yahoo groups will attack and ban those who don’t agree or speak out?? Well, I must disagree. You are targeting the wrong group.

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOFMslNrIRY

498. 
     notindenial
     October 21st, 2009
     17:50:51

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj4BG0DawW0

499. 
     Sullivan
     October 21st, 2009
     18:01:30

     notindenial—
     if you want to just post links without adding any information, I will start deleting your comments. I will do so even if you change names again.

500. 
     Anon
     November 12th, 2009
     22:24:53

     Two papers on DMSA and autism:
     http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6904/9/16
     http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6904/9/17

501. 
     Chris
     November 12th, 2009
     22:36:27

     Yet another drive by contribution by a cherry picker. It would have more appropriate to post your drive-by on this more recent post:
     http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=3360

     Now my mother always told me to consider the source. Now let us look at the source of those papers: Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine

     Sorry, but that is not a place that practices real science. Plus provoked tests for mercury are not exactly accurate.

502. 
     Joseph
     November 12th, 2009
     22:51:44

     Anon is spamming several blogs with those links, apparently, since he just showed up in my 2-year-old post where I was wondering when Dr. Adams was going to publish his paper. Back then Dr. Adams was saying the results might get published within a year.

     The way the results are spinned is dishonest, in my view, but even two years ago it was clear that was the plan. A randomized trial with no significant differences in outcome between groups should normally be interpreted as showing that the treatment was not beneficial. Adams et al. interpret the results as if both groups had been helped by the treatment. They can only do this because the design of the study is not truly placebo-controlled. (Both groups got one initial round of DMSA - the rationale for this is questionable, especially in light of how they ended up selling the result.)

     Why did this spin get past peer review? If you check the pre-publication history, they let you see who the peer reviewers were. They happen to be Richard Deth (of “I wager the thimerosal hypothesis will be proven in 18-24 months” fame) and Ray Palmer (of “mercury from power plants is associated with administrative autism prevalence” fame.) How this could happen, I have no idea, and it frankly causes me to lose confidence in the whole “peer review” heuristic.

503. 
     Sullivan
     November 12th, 2009
     23:53:29

     Anon,

     give it a rest.

     DMSA and autism—two papers refereed by chelationists, which make claims that are not supported by the data they collected. Thank god I didn’t get sucked into that nonsense.

504. 
     Joseph
     November 13th, 2009
     21:49:54

     It’s illustrative to read Dr. Deth’s “review.” For example:

     8. Do the title and abstract accurately convey what has been found?

     Yes;

     Here’s one where Dr. Deth betrays his interests:

     5. Are the discussion and conclusions well balanced and adequately supported by the data?

     Yes; The Discussion is refreshingly brief and well-focused. However, the authors could/should have discussed the how the level of observed improvement compares with other autism interventions (e.g. ADA etc.). Is it similar? Or superior? They could also have discussed the public health implications of an observed improvement in autism with chelation (i.e. heavy metal exposure as a cause of autism).

     In other words: What the paper is missing is that they should’ve said mercury causes autism.

     Regarding how it compares to other interventions, I think the main question should be how it compares to placebo.

     Ray Palmer then opines:

     This is a well-written, well-conducted study that addresses a timely topic of great current need. Many of the contributors have been in this area of research for many years and have contributed substantially to the field.

     Both declare no competing interests. Let me find the journal’s definition of “competing interest”...

     A competing interest exists when your interpretation of data or presentation of information may be influenced by your personal or financial relationship with other people or organizations. Authors should disclose any financial competing interests but also any non-financial competing interests that may cause them embarrassment were they to become public after the publication of the manuscript.

     ...

     Are there any non-financial competing interests (political, personal, religious, ideological, academic, intellectual, commercial or any other) to declare in relation to this manuscript? If so, please specify.

     If you are unsure as to whether you or one of your co-authors has a competing interest, please discuss it with the editorial office.

     The peer-review process of the Adams study was a complete travesty, in other words; practically fraudulent.