Neurodiverse intimidation

20 Oct

A recent comment on this blog used this video as an example of how the Neurodiverse community uses “intimidation”. Take a look for yourself:

video below

I thank Mr. Crosby for bringing this video to my attention. It is awesome. I also appreciate the opportunity to see what people mean when they make claims that the neurodiverse community. What others label “intimidation” is to me–and I bet to the almost everyone who would watch this video–as a very respectful presentation by a well spoken person.

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48 Responses to “Neurodiverse intimidation”

  1. NIghtStorm October 20, 2009 at 22:57 #

    And excellent example of a clear speaking autist that wants to assist other autist and help her community.

    I suppose an autist that won’t be cowed by bigots and ableists is “intimidating” to outsiders.

  2. Joseph October 20, 2009 at 23:18 #

    Is this another instance where we need to go over the definition of a term, like we did with “token” and “disability”?

    What’s a good example of intimidation? Try this: Outing a blogger and contacting their employer.

  3. Dwight F October 21, 2009 at 00:15 #

    Intimidation? Because she has “serious librarian” glasses? Because she’s wearing a black shirt? Because she spoke in a clear, firm voice the whole time? Because she looked up with eye contact occasionally? The way she moved away from the seat/mic so quickly after finishing reading?

    Jake Crosby, please come here and explain exactly what you find intimidating? Because as it stands, pending some sort of explaination, it is beyond me how I could ever take seriously ANYTHING someone said, on any topic, after they watched that video and categorized it as intimidation?

  4. NIghtStorm October 21, 2009 at 01:54 #

    @Dwight

    If Jake really has AS maybe he misread the firm assertive tone as yelling. But nothing in her body language and voice that portrayed anger and fear tactics. What is intimidation about Miss Miller’s speech? That for once autist need to stop being regarded as “nothing-people” and treated like half-tossed dolls with no self-awareness? Really what is so scary Jake? That we’re not going to be some sort of puppet for normative martyrdom? Maybe you like hiding between the legs of AOA moms and join in their pathological self-love as they act like heroes while they turn their children into socio-status items.

  5. Jake Crosby October 21, 2009 at 02:04 #

    The subtitles right there on that video speak enough for themselves, that there is no need to discuss his any further. I’ve argued with you people time and time again, and time and time again you’ve proven how hopeless it is to engage you in any kind of dialogue, especially after reading this deliberately provocative post as well as the commentary underneath.

  6. Sullivan October 21, 2009 at 02:10 #

    Jake Crosby,

    since no one sees the intimidation you assert, perhaps you do need to engage more if you want to be understood.

  7. NIghtStorm October 21, 2009 at 02:15 #

    I am sorry Jake can you translate your post? I am not fluent in “BAWWWW”

    There is no intimidation Jake, stop dismissing our posts and put a little cream on that butt-hurt of yours and show us what is so intimidating about Miss Miller.

  8. Dwight F October 21, 2009 at 02:31 #

    >> I’ve argued with you people time and time again, and time and time again you’ve proven how hopeless it is to engage you in discussion, especially after reading this post as well as the commentary underneath.

    Yet continue to post here time and time again?

    You very specifically linked to this video as an example of intimidation. Your words.

    But now you offer NO explaination of how you justify refering to this as intimidation? Not a single feeble attempt. Is your post in this thread just a passive-aggressive way of saying “yes, I was completely out of line and my comment was entirely baseless”? You’d come off as a lot less like a tool if you’d just suck it up and apologized.

  9. Leila October 21, 2009 at 03:57 #

    Jake, do you really find that nice young lady on the video intimidating? As opposed to J.B. Handley?

    Jeebus!

  10. Jack October 21, 2009 at 10:09 #

    In addition to being intelligent and well-spoken, Katie Miller is pretty cute. Maybe Jake finds that intimidating.

  11. mike stanton October 21, 2009 at 11:40 #

    I found the subtitles irritating. They were out of sync and sometimes garbled the meaning. This could be quite disconcerting if you are autistic. But when I got beyond that the message from Katie was basically: Do not write us off. Listen to us. Do not speak about us in ways we find hurtful. Please take account of the views of non-verbal autistic people and do not presume that a lack of expressive language equates to a lack of comprehension. If you are going to fund research into causes and possible cures or pre-natal screening tests have you thought through the consequences? Can a genetic test ever predict quality of life? And can we have equal time for quality of life research so that as much time and money is spent on improving life for existing autistics as is spent on trying to find a cause?

    I do not find that intimidating or disconcerting.

  12. Joseph October 21, 2009 at 13:44 #

    I’ve argued with you people time and time again, and time and time again you’ve proven how hopeless it is to engage you in any kind of dialogue, especially after reading this deliberately provocative post as well as the commentary underneath.

    From my perspective, Jake, you basically never acknowledge being mistaken, you defend crooks and liars no matter what, and you don’t address points made. Right here in this discussion you have yet to explain what you mean by “intimidating.”

  13. Mary Ann October 21, 2009 at 14:10 #

    I liked what she had to say and she said it well. I don’t like people referring to my son as someone with a disease and some who needs to be fixed or cured. My son is proud of who he is, he likes being autistic, he would be crushed to hear that was somehow wrong. There should be WAY more money dedicated for creating better lives for those with Autism and far less worrying about finding the smoking gun.

  14. Dwight F October 21, 2009 at 14:51 #

    >> I found the subtitles irritating. They were out of sync and sometimes garbled the meaning.

    I could see fustration with broken subtitles. Subtitles tech (I assume it is a human typing what they hear?) is much less than perfect. If Jake is relying on that as his sole source of what the words spoken for, it’d be pretty hard to make judgement on what was being said any-which-way.

    I think it’s pretty ironic given the content of her speech includes a fair amount about inadequate communication devices. :/

  15. Ringside Seat October 21, 2009 at 16:16 #

    Jake is presumably too young, and perhaps too thinly-educated and misled by the company he keeps, to know that women, black and gay people used to have to sit at tables and say things along those lines.

    If Jake felt intimidated, he’s part of the problem.

  16. Dedj October 21, 2009 at 16:56 #

    “The subtitles right there on that video speak enough for themselves, that there is no need to discuss his any further.”

    If it’s true that the subtitles speak for themselves, then you can and will provide the timestamp or transcript.

    There is need to discuss this further, as you have not made an effort to competantly discuss this in the first place. Nor have you made any effort to relate this video to the action of Katie Wright in the first place.

    Just because you say so does not make it so.

    “I’ve argued with you people time and time again, and time and time again you’ve proven how hopeless it is to engage you in any kind of dialogue,”

    Jake, several of us have ‘time and time again’ tried to debate with you. Debating with you is a game of having – as a consequence of your arguemention style and general referencing skill – having to second guess what your arguement even is, how you think your evidence even relates to whatever arguement you are trying to make, whether you meant to use the terms you use in the way you use them or whether you really don’t know what they mean. You have been caught out time and time again using obscure or irrelevant references which often contradict your own point, rebutting references to the professional literature with poor quality references to personal commentary from ‘someguysomewhere’, and repeating ad nauseum “it’s obvious, it’s obvious” when it most certainly (due to your general lack of skill) isn’t obvious.

    It would be safe to say that any objective and unbiased observer would regard you as either hopeless or not as clever as you think you are.

    That you feel challenged and insecure due to people questioning your skills and judgement (and who wouldn’t? You have repeatedly failed – even when directly questioned – to even mention your related experience or training) is not evidence of intimidation.

    People telling you that you’re wrong and that your logic and evidence suck is not intimidation, it’s called arguing. “I’m right because it’s obvious and you all suck” is not.

  17. Dedj October 21, 2009 at 17:22 #

    Tip to Jake: Transcripts are easily available through googling “Katie miller iacc”.

    You really have no excuse this time.

    I already know why and where your answer will be wrong, but I’ll be fair to you and await your answer.

  18. Jake Crosby October 21, 2009 at 20:20 #

    Okay Bubble Boy

  19. Dedj October 21, 2009 at 20:50 #

    Jake, piece of advice, when someone indicates that you’re generally considered immature and a poor arguer, don’t do anything to prove them correct.

    Chalk up another example of Jake not giving a relevant or appropriate answer.

    Jake has been expressly asked to give an appoximate answer, and has been given a huge hint of where material to support his answer can be found. He failed to do this, even though he should already have the information we are asking him for.

    His ‘response’ says more than he perhaps wanted it to.

  20. NightStorm October 22, 2009 at 14:56 #

    He knows he is wrong and I afraid of answering, hence the dick-dodging and non-answers.

    C’mon Jake, did your balls drop yet?

  21. autismnostrum October 23, 2009 at 00:43 #

    I don’t understand the intimidating either. Looked like a fantastic presentation to me. She stated her concerns and her position well, and she had a lot of great suggestions. The audience laughed at one point, and there were some nodding heads at what she was saying.

    As far as the subtitles go, I can answer that. Most places send them out to a close captioning service in Washington DC that uses live people who type as they hear it, the same as TV shows in the US. They aren’t necessarily fluent in specialized terminology – which means you get garbled things like when she said “eugenics” and the caption said “genetics.” Sometimes they can give the captioner a list of vocabulary beforehand, but this doesn’t always happen.

  22. Jake Crosby October 23, 2009 at 20:51 #

    “Autism does not kill people. When I hear someone say that autism is worse than cancer it suggests to me that those people would wish we’d be better off dead than continue to exist the way we are.”

    That sounds like neurodiverse intimidation to me. Perhaps she should say this to all the parents of autistic children who drowned or got hit by cars as a result of their disabilities. I already anticipate your defense: that neurotypical kids drown and get hit by cars also so therefore autism is not the problem.

    • Sullivan October 23, 2009 at 20:56 #

      “That sounds like neurodiverse intimidation to me.”

      Which only serves to demonstrate that you don’t understand the word “intimidation”

    • Sullivan October 23, 2009 at 21:54 #

      That sounds like neurodiverse intimidation to me. Perhaps she should say this to all the parents of autistic children who drowned or got hit by cars as a result of their disabilities. I already anticipate your defense: that neurotypical kids drown and get hit by cars also so therefore autism is not the problem.

      I don’t understand why you think anyone here needs a “defense” against your statement.

      My “response” is this–you still clearly do not understand the definition of intimidation.

  23. Joseph October 23, 2009 at 21:14 #

    It took you 2 days to come up with that, Jake?

    Either way, the cancer analogy has no real relationship to the non-demonstrated higher risk of drowning in autism.

    Why couldn’t I extend that same analogy to maleness, for example? Being male is like cancer. After all, males have a lower life expectancy than females.

    Of course, with cancer we’re talking about mean survivals of 1, 2, 5 years after diagnosis. Survival does improve considerably with medical treatment. We’re clearly talking about completely different constructs in a pragmatic sense.

  24. NightStorm October 23, 2009 at 21:24 #

    Noun 1. Intimidation – the act of intimidating a weaker person to make them do something
    Synonyms: bullying
    2. intimidation – the feeling of discouragement in the face of someone’s superior fame or wealth or status etc.
    3. intimidation – the feeling of being intimidated; being made to feel afraid or timid
    4. intimidation – a communication that makes you afraid to try something
    Synonyms: determent, deterrence

    Because you obviously know what it means.

    . Perhaps she should say this to all the parents of autistic children who drowned or got hit by cars as a result of their disabilities.

    *sigh* I nearly got ran over once on my scooter, It wasn’t because I was autistic it was because there are jerkoffs who run red lights. I nearly drowned too and I had a huge phobia of deep water and will meltdown near four feet of water(I still have that phobia if that wave pool of last year was any proof). COD is never autism it’s “Drowning” or “Head Injury”. Until someone can say COD is Autism. Autism doesn’t kill people.

    Accidents happen, and with all disabilities. Down Syndrome, Fragile X, Williams Syndrome, Deafness and more; the risk of accidents are higher with any disability. Parents should be more responsible to avoid such accidents. There is no reason to scapegoat a disability which is irrelevant. If I wind up on the news as someone who was raped and murdered, it won’t because I am autistic (though the media might play it that way) it’s because there are evil evil people who would do such horrible things.

  25. NightStorm October 23, 2009 at 22:08 #

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/22/mother-says-school-aide-w_n_330891.html

    OMG U GUISE HE DIED CUZ HES AUTISTIC RITE?! TTLY PROOF RITE!!!!!one1!!

  26. Ringside Seat October 23, 2009 at 23:08 #

    It’s all the usual projection. The anti-vaxxers conspire, so they accuse honest campaigners of conspiracies. The anti-vaxxers receive undisclosed money from vested interests, so they accuse scientists of corruption. The anti-vaxxers threaten and abuse, so they accuse civil rights activists of intimidation.

    These folk are sick at heart.

  27. Dedj October 24, 2009 at 01:18 #

    “That sounds like neurodiverse intimidation to me.”

    The rest of the comment is pure irrelevance, and has nothing to do with what Katie actually said. People with autism die. People with autism get bullied. Both often happen more than with ‘NT’ children. Autism itself is not deadly, Jake will provide the passage from the DSM or ICD that says otherwise.

    Besides, suggesting that her views are somehow less valid because she did not say them to parents (and we have no way of knowing whether she does this in real life or not, and there may have been several parents in the room) is slightly bizarre. A person does not have to put themselves at risk of violence to have a valid viewpoint. And she said it at the IACC at a open meeting, so she’s hardly kept her views secret.

    It’s even worse for Jake. Aside from accusing Katie Miller of intimidation he has also accused the IACC of violating their own purpose by including her! Apparently her mere prescence is a clear indication that they are against ‘combating autism’.

    Yep, a woman who directly called for more support, SaLT interventions, ACD’s and education for people with autism is against, er, supporting and helping people with autism! According to Jake anyway. According to the video, she’s the polar opposite of what Jake alledges she is and everyone (except Jake) appears to be able to see the difference.

    “…..allowing Katie Miller to speak is the single worst thing the IACC has done that I can think of.”
    “….allowing Katie Miller to speak gave airtime to some of the most garbage ND rhetoric I’ve heard AND was in direct violation of the committee’s purpose: which is to “COMBAT” autism!”

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/07/autism-families-shut-out-at-iacc.html

    But anyway, Jake didn’t “take two days” to come up with that reply, he had already quoted it in a AoA comment.

    So, Jake already knew which exact part he was on about – and could have found it in moments – but didn’t deign to tell us mere mortals what he was on about. Nope, asking for supporting evidence doesn’t count in Jakes world. In Jakes world he asserts it, so therefore we must believe it, then he has the audacity of criticising others of being self-important.

    Unbelievable behaviour.

    But anyway, as Nightstorm indicated, intimidation is the intentional act of forcing another to do something through fear of injury or harm. You can question whether AoA is engaging in an intimidation campaign (personally I’m not convinced its purposefull and orchastrated behaviour – more likely that it’s mere modus operandi for AoA to behave like that to everyone who doesn’t agree with them) but to assert that “I think someone else is wrong, and this is why” is intimidation is stretching the definition to absurd extremes.

    If Jake feels emotionally challenged by people disagreeing with his world view, then that is up to him to resolve, regardless of whether his views on autism are a reflection of his esteem for himslef or not.

    And now for more Kate Humble vids. Toodles.

  28. Dedj October 24, 2009 at 02:45 #

    Sorry, “ACD” above should read as “AAC”. “SaLT” should be read as “SLP” in the US.

    Also, I noticed that Theresa Wrangham, President of SafeMinds spoke first on the day in question.

    Perhaps someone, like say, Jake, would like to provide us all with links criticising her inclusion on the IACC as vehemently as Jake did to Katie Miller?

    I don’t doubt that one exists somewhere, but lets just say that I won’t be waiting up.

  29. Clay October 24, 2009 at 08:40 #

    I’m dreaming of a sane Crosby,
    With every Crosby post I read.
    Where arguments make sense,
    and he ain’t dense,
    And he isn’t such a schmo!

    I’m dreaming of a sane Crosby,
    With every Crosby post I read.
    Wish he weren’t all wrapped up so tight,
    With such unqualified need to be right.

    (Just a little entertainment). ;-)

  30. LMFAO October 26, 2009 at 21:14 #

    Wow…. This site never stops amazing me! Let’s all make fun of a man because he has an opinion.

    Anyways..

    If a person is being punched in the freakin face in the middle of the night then let’s not try and find out where that punch is coming from and why this person is being punched. Just tell him to live with it.

    However, just because someone has been told that there is nothing wrong with her and that she was born being punched in the face every night and she states on the record that she is fine with it and that we should let her be as she was born. Then by all means she does not speak for the rest of us who are not comfortable with being punched in the face every night.

    She does not speak for all of us who have autism. I am not intimaidated but I can relate.

    • Sullivan October 26, 2009 at 21:34 #

      Wow…. This site never stops amazing me! Let’s all make fun of a man because he has an opinion.

      If that were the case, I’d agree with you. If Mr. Crosby came here and gave us his opinion that would be one thing. I appreciate it when he does so. I have less appreciation when he comes here and starts calling people “toxic”. I have less appreciation when he uses classic troll tactics to divert the conversation.

      I find it strange that anyone could watch that video and proclaim that it was

      Seriously–did you watch the video? Did you misunderstand the message or are you attempting to project a

      Let’s take a look at a few things that were said in this talk:

      “The challenges and strengths of the autsitic community”. Challenges? Does that sound like she is saying that people should “just live with it”? Obviously, the answer is no.

      “Less access to healthcare”. Does that sound like someone who is saying that everything is fine?

      She calls for research funding to be increased into education, quality of life and services and supports research. Did you disagree with that?

      It is very easy to propagate the lie that groups like ASAN think that autistics should “just live with it”. Why do it when it is so clearly wrong?

  31. Dedj October 26, 2009 at 21:48 #

    We haven’t ‘all’ made fun of Jake. Only Clay really ‘made fun’ of Jake, and as far as I’m aware, this derives from having had significantly more contact with Jake than I would be comfortable with.

    Several of us have serious concerns with his attitudes and behaviour, as well as his illogical and idiosyncratic argumentation, and his habit of avoiding serious questions then pretending he has answered them.

    The idea that Jake is being ‘made fun of’ for his opinions, rather than his behaviour is unsupported by any competant reading of the associated threads.

    Given that Katie Miller has expressly stated views which are contrary to those you have attributed to her, and has publically done so twice now, I would definetly have trouble putting you in the category of ‘competant’.

    To quote her March 14th testimony:

    “Better assistive communication devices, social skills training, specialized schools, vocational training, specialized career and relationship counseling, and sensory integration therapy are other examples of services the autistic population needs.”

    Hardly the words of someone who thinks we should ‘let it be’.

    And now for some more work. Toodles.

  32. LMFAO October 26, 2009 at 21:48 #

    Hold on Sullivan. I did not misunderstand the message. I was stating what she said about how she just wants money for Autism awareness and not research or at least less research and more towards awareness. Anyways… I am for both and I finally read Jakes comments and I see that he does call us Toxic and that was wrong. However, his comments are mean but still they are his opinion. Forgive me sometimes I read too much into a message and get carried away. Again there was no intimidation in her speech. On top of that she speaks better than most neuro-typical people. I wish I could speak that well.

    • Sullivan October 26, 2009 at 22:04 #

      I was stating what she said about how she just wants money for Autism awareness and not research or at least less research and more towards awareness.

      Could you clarify that? It sounds contradictory to me–she wants money for autism awareness but not research towards awareness?

      The one section where she mentions money that I can recall is asking for a parity in funding–every dollar spent on basic research should be met with a dollar spent on research into areas that would improve the quality of life for autistics.

      Increased funding in those areas is something I believe strongly in myself.

  33. Joseph October 26, 2009 at 21:56 #

    If a person is being punched in the freakin face in the middle of the night then let’s not try and find out where that punch is coming from and why this person is being punched. Just tell him to live with it.

    I do not get this metaphor. Is Jake being punched in the freakin face in the middle of the night?

    • Sullivan October 26, 2009 at 22:06 #

      I do not get this metaphor. Is Jake being punched in the freakin face in the middle of the night?

      I’d like clarification as well. My read is that autistics are being “punched in the face”, presumably by their disability. I could be wrong, but that is the way I read it.

  34. Joseph October 26, 2009 at 21:59 #

    However, his comments are mean but still they are his opinion.

    The problem is not that his comments are mean. Well, some of them are, sort of, but they are mostly just immature.

    The problem is that he makes assertions he’s not prepared to back up when challenged. I hope he’s learned he’s not supposed to do that.

  35. Dedj October 26, 2009 at 22:14 #

    “I was stating what she said about how she just wants money for Autism awareness and not research or at least less research and more towards awareness.”

    Incorrect. This is not the view you attributed to her.

    To quote “she is fine with it and that we should let her be as she was born.”

    This implies that she holds the belief that we should do nothing to help people with autism. This is not consistant with her known public beliefs.

    Nor is it consistant with what she has openly called for. Yes, she has called for more awareness and a bit less research (specifically eugenic research), but she has also called for more and better services, such as those listed in the quote upthread. You are creating a false dichotomy with research vs. awareness.

    Several of these services will require research to determine when they are clinically indicated, what the outcome measures should be, and also qualatative/phenomological research of the socio-familial effects, such as that by Pengally et al., as well as studies of efficacy and frames of reference.

    Pengally S, Rogers P, Evans K, (BJOT, 2009, Space at home for families with a child with autistic spectrum disorder, 72(9), 378-383)

  36. NightStorm October 26, 2009 at 22:34 #

    Cuz totally asking for better support services and education is totally saying “Dude deal with it”

    HERPDERP

  37. Clay October 27, 2009 at 04:39 #

    Actually, I was hoping that Jake-boy himself would come back and complain about my little song parody, because then I could have told him:

    Look snot-bubble, you get creamed every time you come here, and it’s not because of who you are, or what you’re sellin’, but because you simply can’t make a cogent argument and make it stick. The facts are NOT on your side. You would be well-advised to take some classes in critical thinking, and then if you still think that your life was ruined by your mother’s amalgam fillings, then you can come back and try to prove it. Bring proof, bring references, or wear a tight swimming suit in case somebody decides to “pants” you.

    Do you have any idea of just how many women have dental fillings, and the vast majority of them have children with absolutely NO signs of autism? Go study that.

  38. Anyone here have a girlfriend? October 27, 2009 at 18:00 #

    Anyone here have a girlfriend? Or are you still pulling it 3 times a day.

    Most of you guys here need to find a significant other and get a job.

    By the way I just love it that you guys are all over 50 and most have never even had a real girlfriend. Hurts doesn’t it.

    She’s a great speaker. Better than all of you. At least she is doing something about it and not sitting naked in front of the PC. Thats right I am talking to you.

    Love you guys and this website!!

    Keep up the great work fellas.

  39. Joseph October 27, 2009 at 18:35 #

    Anyone here have a girlfriend?

    I don’t. I think my wife would object.

    I also have a job, BTW. It’s good to be able to work from home.

    Now, do you have anything to contribute other than ad-hominem attacks of the abusive type?

  40. Chris October 27, 2009 at 18:42 #

    Sorry, dear, but I have a husband. He is a lovely man who I have been passionately in love with since we were both 18 years old.

  41. NightStorm October 27, 2009 at 21:46 #

    LOL Hunny I had more cock and pussy that you possible imagine. Child. Sit the fuck down. Double points that you assume we all have cocks (well I have one but you call it a clit)

    She’s a great speaker. Better than all of you. At least she is doing something about it and not sitting naked in front of the PC. Thats right I am talking to you.

    So what’s your point? We all said she is wonderful speaker and we applaud her courage. WTF are you trying to do?

    There is no lulz here little boy.

  42. Rated G Men November 1, 2009 at 19:26 #

    NightStorm is not keeping this conversation at a mature level. He or She or Both has lost all credibility on this site. Go to the back of the line.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Tweets that mention Autism Blog - Neurodiverse intimidation « Left Brain/Right Brain -- Topsy.com - October 21, 2009

    [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by chokha, Autism Hub. Autism Hub said: New post: Neurodiverse intimidation: Neurodiverse intimidation (LB/RB Team) http://bit.ly/b4dEu [...]

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