Autism Blog - Garry Trudeau of Doonesbury takes on Jenny McCarthy and the “bogus vaccine-autism link”

20 Feb 2011

Author: Sullivan
Comments: 126

Garry Trudeau of Doonesbury takes on Jenny McCarthy and the “bogus vaccine-autism link”

One of the big problems with the media has been their willingness to give the vaccine-induced-autism-epidemic idea far more wight than it deserved. While the science has been very one sided against the theories presented, the media usually puts out “he said/she said” type stories. You know the type. A new study will come out. A news story will be produced. They will open with people talking about the increasing numbers of people diagnosed with autism and the belief in the vaccine link in some groups. The scientists for the new study will be interviewed. And then the story will end with parents saying, “but I know the link is real”. It was a world of false balance.

That world has changed, at least for now. Sure not everywhere, but the media and the public’s perception of vaccines and autism has changed.

Case in point: the comic strip “Doonesbury”. For about 40 years Gary Trudeau has had his finger on the pulse of American society. He has been a harsh critic of political figures and popular culture figures (many papers have placed his comic on the opinion or editorial pages).

Here are a couple of panels from today’s strip (click to enlarge). Boopsie, former cheerleader and Playboy playmate, is discussing Jenny McCarthy:

The full strip can be found at Doonesbury.com.

The vaccine-causation idea has only survived through the media and public relations. The science never really supported the hypotheses. Jenny McCarthy rode the vaccine story back into the public’s eye, and appears to be trying to jump ship before it drags her back down. If today’s Doonesbury is any indication, she may have waited too long. She could do a lot of good by making a public statement distancing herself from the junk science and PR campaigns that created the image of a vaccine-induced-epidemic. It wouldn’t make up for all the damage she caused, but it would be better than having her publicity people beg the Colbert show to not be harsh on her, while she was at the same time writing pieces supporting the junk scientists for the Huffington Post.

When Doonesbury is calling you out for promoting a “bogus vaccine-autism link” and for causing real harm to preventive health care, you’ve lost public support. You can either try to stay low and ride it out, or do the right thing and repair some of the damage you’ve caused. The choice is yours, Ms. McCarthy.

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Comments

126 Responses to “Garry Trudeau of Doonesbury takes on Jenny McCarthy and the “bogus vaccine-autism link””

AWOL
February 20th, 2011
23:44:50

You sure its the same Jenny..

“And, referring to the BMJ story, she added, “Last week, this hoopla made us a little stronger, and even more determined to fight for the truth about what’s happening to our kids.”

Wednesday, January 12th 2011, 1:35 PM

Jenny McCarthy stands firm on autism and childhood vaccine link; reacts discredited medical study

http://www.nydailynews.com/lif....._chil.html
Sullivan
February 21st, 2011
00:23:42

That’s the person Trudeau is criticizing.

Funny how she wanted Colbert to not criticize her because she supposedly has backed off.
AWOL
February 21st, 2011
00:40:56

shout the lie loud enough ?more like..
sharon
February 21st, 2011
00:50:42

@AWOL, what other Jenny could it be?
Carl Bainbridge
February 21st, 2011
00:57:26

people are attacking her because she is a playmate

not because her beliefs are unsound.

a rather large contingent (and the scientific data) are starting to look at a combination of genetics and environmental factors for causing autism with at least some of the environmental factors appearing to be in some cases vaccines.

tho i will personally say this tho.

When doonesbury starts belittling my beliefs then i tend to believe i am on to something good.

one of the last places i would consider getting my medical advices is a political cartoon.
Vince Whirlwind
February 21st, 2011
01:03:27

Carl, her beliefs are unsound, because they are not based on science and have no support in the science.

Your repetition of the now-discredited assertion that vaccines cause autism is sad and uninformed. You need to revise your beliefs in the light of the facts and stop repeating stuff that is just plain wrong.
AWOL
February 21st, 2011
01:28:57

Vince
I suppose you work on the lbrb autistic economic repair “not a clue department”

Just thought i would chuck that in with the rest of the jokes on here..
Autism Blog – Gary Trudeau of Doonesbury takes on Jenny McCarthy … | My Autism Site | All About Autism
February 21st, 2011
01:40:47

[...] The rest is here: Autism Blog – Gary Trudeau of Doonesbury takes on Jenny McCarthy … [...]
sharon
February 21st, 2011
01:46:27

@Carl Bainbridge, she is a former playmate. That fact is of no consequence to me. If she left the porn industry for university and obtained an actual degree, say in science, rather than her ‘Google degree’, then I might listen to her. If she was open to discussion around the multiple studies showing no vaccine/autism link, rather than being dismissive, while simultaneously giving false hope to parents about recovery from Autism then I might have some respect for her opinion. The fact she appeared in Playboy does not concern me in the slightest. Good luck to her if she wants to cash in on some genetic gifts, but why should I listen to her opinion about the etiology of a complex neurological quirk?
Shannon
February 21st, 2011
01:52:49

My take on Jenny McCarthy:

I honestly don’t care what her background is—I would listen to her whether she was actively filming porn, or a Christian homeschooler—if she was able to discuss vaccines intelligently.

Instead she keeps changing her story about what effects she thinks vaccines had on her son, uses her professional performing skills to milk testimonials while attacking scientists and doctors on camera, argues against toxins in vaccines while rhapsodizing about Botox, and has poured her considerable passion and power into compromising public health.

I don’t think she’s an evil person, but I do think she’s a credulous person, a passionately misguided person, and given her influence on other credulous and passionately misguided people, a dangerous person. I think she is a skilled performer rather than a skilled thinker.

Our society needs to value children’s health over celebrity hubris.

From:
http://www.squidalicious.com/2.....arthy.html
Tweets that mention Autism Blog - Gary Trudeau of Doonesbury takes on Jenny McCarthy and the “bogus vaccine-autism link” « Left Brain/Right Brain -- Topsy.com
February 21st, 2011
02:54:29

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Kev, Patrick Woessner, Brandon Blietz, Alltop Autism, jamie davis and others. jamie davis said: Autism Blog – Gary Trudeau of Doonesbury takes on Jenny McCarthy …: One of the big problems with the media has… http://bit.ly/fKAtw9 [...]
Chris
February 21st, 2011
03:19:24

Carl Bainbridge:

not because her beliefs are unsound.

Let me echo Shannon, I also dislike her because she changes her story. I think it is dishonest to blame the MMR vaccine that her child got sometime between 15 to 18 months old for a seizure he had when he was over two year old. A span between six months to a year.

Mr. Bainbridge, you are welcome to have your own beliefs. But you are not welcome to your own facts. There is a difference. If you wish to convince us that vaccines are associated with autism, then you need to prove that claim with real evidence. Not beliefs.
sharon
February 21st, 2011
05:47:36

“Our society needs to value children’s health over celebrity hubris”.
Wish I had said that.
SRC
February 21st, 2011
05:56:44

Vaccines don’t cause autism and smoking doesn’t cause cancer.
Morgan
February 21st, 2011
06:23:03

The vaccine-autism story has finally landed in the place where it deserves to die: the Sunday comics.

Now if we could all just stop digging up the bones . . .
geolith
February 21st, 2011
14:09:40

@carl bainbridge

Well, I suppose the ironies are flying about rather thickly if you do think the Doonesbury comic was giving medical advice, instead of skewering McCarthy’s persistent expression of the belief complex that gave rise to the conclusion that vaccine causes autism.

If Doonesbury is one of the last, one wonders where the last place is that you would look for medical advices.

It’s hard to believe you could do worse than moving Jenny McCarthy to the bottom of that list, not because she wore no clothes, but because her expressed beliefs, stripped bare and exposed to daylight, are not supported by the science (which can be found in places like BMJ).

(hmm, and thinking about McCarthy and science in the days of digital clocks, does the expression “even a stopped clock is right twice a day” still have relevance?...)
Joe
February 21st, 2011
17:47:34

Nine out of ten parents rank vaccine safety as their number one childhood health concern. Is it a little premature to declare “mission accomplished”?
Chris
February 21st, 2011
18:04:02

Joe, that is a lovely little statistic. Did you think it was pertinent to the comic or Jenny McCarthy? Perhaps it is because of the clueless blathering of Ms. McCarthy that there is a statistic like that. By the way, we will assume you made up those numbers unless you provide a valid reference.
Brian Morgan
February 21st, 2011
19:18:22

“You sure its the same Jenny..”

Frame three of the strip says: “Jenny McCarthy”
AWOL
February 21st, 2011
19:41:32

Brian Morgan

What I say is, it cant be the same Jenny Mc Carthy the autism community know ,love and thank ,she is being grossly mis-represented.

I quoted Jenny in the very first post on this blog dated

Wednesday, January 12th 2011, 1:35 PM

“And, referring to the BMJ story, she added, “Last week, this hoopla made us a little stronger, and even more determined to fight for the truth about what’s happening to our kids.”

For clarity I printed that .Despite this clarity and the very recent date you all,on here still mantra the words “Jenny is jumping ship” no doubt,no doubt: as much chance of that as you had Nelson jumping ship…

Jenny McCarthy stands firm on autism and childhood vaccine link;

the writer should have left it at that…

I hope Kev approves of this as half my posts dont get through these days..
Dawn
February 21st, 2011
20:06:47

@Chris: I think that Joe is referring to the Univ of Michigan survey that asked parents about their concerns. Vaccine safety was high on the list. NOT a statement that vaccines were unsafe, or that they caused autism or ADHD or any other nonsense, only a statement that vaccine safety was high on parents’ list of concerns.

Actually – just googled it. From the U of M site: “Vaccine and medication safety are parents’ top research priorities

Parents rate research on environmental effects, childhood diseases, and causes of childhood injuries less important”

So….parents have RESEARCH on vaccine and medication safety as top priorities. AOA and other sites have misquoted it, but this is from the official information.

“A poll released by the C.S. Mott Children’s National Poll on Children’s Health shows that nearly 9 in 10 parents rank vaccine safety, and the effectiveness and safety of medicines, as the most important topics in children’s health research today.

The poll, which asked 1,621 parents age 18 and older in August 2010 to rate the importance of different types of medical research for children’s health, found that parents rated the topics as follows:

1. Vaccine safety (89 percent)
2. Medication safety and effectiveness (88 percent)
3. Things in the environment that could lead to health issues (72 percent)
4. Foods that might protect against cancer (67 percent )
5. New treatment for rare childhood diseases (66 percent)
6. Cancer-causing foods (64 percent )
7. New treatments for common childhood illnesses (64 percent)
8. Leading causes of injuries (46 percent)”

Totally different picture than what Joe and AOA are painting, isn’t it?
Chris
February 21st, 2011
22:29:01

Dawn, thank you, it is completely different. Which is why I like to see persons making claims to show the source of their information. It makes it easier to judge the data.
AWOL
February 21st, 2011
22:39:53

Nothing so bad as,those that can see just dont want to Chris,springs to mind This is why Chris, I ask for un -biased studies from all bloggers..which Chris has yet to supply..even one..have you Chris?

http://www2.med.umich.edu/prmc.....fm?ID=1760

“”In this poll, parents overwhelmingly see the need for research on the safety of vaccines and medications given to children,” says Matthew Davis, M.D., director of the poll and associate professor of pediatrics and internal medicine in the Child Health Evaluation and Research Unit at the U-M Medical School. “Parental concerns about the safety of vaccines have increased markedly over the last decade, due to alleged but later disproven links between vaccines and autism and related concerns about mercury and other preservatives used in vaccines.

“Assurances from health care providers and government officials that vaccines are safe have been insufficient. Rather, it’s clear from this poll that parents want more research about the safety of vaccines for their young children and adolescents.””

I`m waiting
Joe
February 21st, 2011
23:04:34

Thanks for providing the reference for me Dawn. I appreciate it.
Jonathan Semetko
February 22nd, 2011
01:30:24

It is ironic when people cry “foul” when McCarthy gets trashed. She is not known for her argumentation, she is known for her “celebrity endorsement”. She has been carefully used as a photo op advocate. Fair game for a poltical cartoon? Absolutely….
sharon
February 22nd, 2011
04:46:49

@Jonathan Semetko, “She is not known for her argumentation..” Sure you could have worked in a gag about augmentation there?
Chemmomo
February 22nd, 2011
08:37:16

Sullivan and Kev – check your spelling of Trudeau’s first name (I don’t want to appear to be nitpicking, but it’s in title of the post).
Sullivan
February 22nd, 2011
18:59:52

Chemmomo,

thanks for that. I put off the correction for a while because I didn’t want to mess up the url for the post. So, the title is hopefully correct, the URL is forever wrong.
AWOL
February 22nd, 2011
21:21:25

Strange how all were holding forth and the diversion is now in place..no takers as below???

Nothing so bad as,those that can see just dont want to Chris,springs to mind This is why Chris, I ask for un -biased studies from all bloggers..which Chris has yet to supply..even one..have you Chris?

http://www2.med.umich.edu/prmc…..fm?ID=1760

“”In this poll, parents overwhelmingly see the need for research on the safety of vaccines and medications given to children,” says Matthew Davis, M.D., director of the poll and associate professor of pediatrics and internal medicine in the Child Health Evaluation and Research Unit at the U-M Medical School. “Parental concerns about the safety of vaccines have increased markedly over the last decade, due to alleged but later disproven links between vaccines and autism and related concerns about mercury and other preservatives used in vaccines.

“Assurances from health care providers and government officials that vaccines are safe have been insufficient. Rather, it’s clear from this poll that parents want more research about the safety of vaccines for their young children and adolescents.””

I`m waiting
t dennison
February 24th, 2011
07:19:43

Until there is a study that compares VACCINATED CHILDREN AGAINST UNVACCINATED CHILDREN - how can anyone know for sure? ...and of course- the higher-ups REFUSE to do this study… Why do you think this is so?
Chris
February 24th, 2011
08:52:05

t dennison, please tell us how you would design that study to protect the unvaccinated arm from measles, Hib, pertussis and other vaccine preventable diseases. Remember that many of these diseases have caused a great deal of harm lately, especially pertussis and Hib (with real deaths).

Here are some guidelines:

1- Do not use institutions for the severely disabled like the Hepatitis B and polio tests done at Willowbrook.

2- Do not use children in developing countries, like this study.

3- Look at the study I linked to, check out Table 1. You must make sure that that the second column (“Clinical measles”) is zero for both rows. With that, the third column should also be full of zeros.

4- Don’t claim that you can use the number of kids whose parents have voluntarily refused to vaccinate them. That would not be blinded, and have already been done… several times in many countries. The large epidemiological studies that were conducted in the UK, USA, Canada, Finland, Denmark and Japan all showed that vaccines have no casual link to autism.

Do you understand? Can you design that study and have it comply with these rules?

To the troll that is “Absent WithOut Leave”, you are being ignored because you consider Gary Null, an incompetent supplement salesman, to be “unbiased.” Plus the link you provided gives this as its first line: “Your request could not be processed.” What a tool.
AWOL
February 24th, 2011
13:28:27

Dear Chris(others tell the truth)

“Remember that many of these diseases have caused a great deal of harm lately, especially pertussis and Hib (with real deaths).”

Can you provide your un biased ,non pharma studies please ?

I noticed on AOA ,a superb study just received as below..if you could lower yorself to look at it we would all appreciate your advice on the study ,not that we will take your advice but it gives us an idea into the pharma logic..(giving credit you have one)

http://www.ageofautism.com/201.....bing-.html

And so were not going away from the topic which your great at reminding people about Chris and ,you wont answer how you got my previous post soo wrong…heres JMC on Huf..

Posted: January 10, 2011 03:14 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....06857.html
Kev
February 24th, 2011
13:35:33

AWOL, I’ll tell you what I thought when I went and read that story you link to. I thought ‘whats that got to do with autism?’ Have I missed where it discusses autism? Could you quote from the part that touches on autism? I’d hate to think you were quoting meaningless studies that have nothing to do with the reason this blog exists.
AWOL
February 24th, 2011
13:46:23

Kev

sorry t dennisson wrote

“Until there is a study that compares VACCINATED CHILDREN AGAINST UNVACCINATED CHILDREN - ”

AOA study is exacctly vac non vac,study

Chris commented on “pertussis and Hib (with real deaths).”

Fairly logical post i posted (for me), what`s the problem?
Sullivan
February 24th, 2011
15:24:33

Kev,

I would suggest you follow the link to the free test of the full paper. Amongst other interesting details is the author affiliation:

” Health Project, Apartado 861, Bissau, Guinea-Bissau; and Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Statens Serum Institut, Copenhagen, Denmark”

Funny how affiliations with the Statens Serum Institute (which makes vaccines for Denmark) is considered a fatal conflict of interest for vaccine-autism studies but people from this same institute are not a part of “big pharma” now. (more precisely, 7 years ago when the paper was written)
Sullivan
February 24th, 2011
19:12:05

“AOA study is exacctly vac non vac,study”

is it, now? That’s good to hear.

From the paper:

“Initially BCG was not provided, but with the accelerated immunization programme, the BCG coverage among children aged 2–8 months increased from 1% (4/385) and 7% (32/461) in 1984 and 1985, respectively, to 26% (130/493) and 29% (144/496) in 1986 and 1987, respectively. We controlled for BCG status in the analysis. “

So, children who have received the BCG vaccine are considered “unvaccinated”, because the authors controlled for it. In other words, “unvaccinated” means no DPT vaccination, not completely unvaccinated.

Funny how the definition of “unvaccinated” changes. When considering children unvaccinated by MMR, it wasn’t considered valid because they received other vaccines. Yes, there is major goalpost moving going on here.

And even more:

The author, Peter Aaby, is funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Ironic that, considering how much hatred has been heaped on Bill Gates in the past couple of weeks. Prof. Aaby’s work has “lead to the discovery that intensity of exposure to infection and not malnutrition was the main cause of high measles mortality in low-income countries “, completely counter to the ideas thrown around by people who bash the efficacy of the measles vaccine.

Prof. Aaby’s work indicated that a high-titer measles vaccine might result in higher childhood mortality amongst females. WHO pulled the vaccine. According to the “logic” I’ve heard so often by supporters of Andrew Wakefield, Prof. Aaby would have faced personal and career attacks for daring to challenge vaccines. Quite the contrary.

There is a guy working on vaccine safety. Not only that, but he is working with people in what most would consider a disadvantaged situation. Good for him. Let him do his work. The last thing he needs is to have a bunch of people cherry pick his conclusions and misapply them. Not only does that put other people at risk, say in “advantaged” countries like the US and the UK, it makes it harder for him to do his own work. He may be right, he may be wrong. Let him find out and apply the results appropriately.
AWOL
February 24th, 2011
23:12:06

Sullivan..

“Funny how the definition of “unvaccinated” changes. When considering children unvaccinated by MMR, it wasn’t considered valid because they received other vaccines. Yes, there is major goalpost moving going on here.”

Surely this would only de a dis-advantage to the study as the vaccines would make the childrens health worse .The detriment would be to the better figures of the un-vaccinated.

“weeks. Prof. Aaby’s work has “lead to the discovery that intensity of exposure to infection ”

You know on here your asked for un-biased studies is this man not that?

No pleasing..some people
Sullivan
February 24th, 2011
23:34:00

“No pleasing..some people”

You are projecting. I have zero problem with the man. In fact, I admire him for what he is trying to do. Whether he’s right or wrong, I can’t say. But he is actually working on vaccine safety. He is a far cry from pseudo vaccine safety people like Andrew Wakefield.
Chris
February 25th, 2011
06:28:00

I wanted an answer from Mr. or Ms. Dennison, not he/she who is Absent WithOut Leave. I also specifically said “Do not use children in developing countries.” Therefore the Aaby study does not qualify in that is was done in Guinea-Bissau. As noted, there are other issues at play.

Try again, and this time from Mr. or Ms. Dennison and following all of the criteria that I laid out.
AWOL
February 25th, 2011
13:36:26

Sullivan,

” He is a far cry from pseudo vaccine safety people like Andrew Wakefield.”

And light years from Brian Deer`s tales in the B.M.J (Big Merck Joker`s)

Funny? ha ha..

I can’t remember who said it, but it was an American journalist that visited Germany in 1938, writing about seeing a Hitler Youth rally and said.

“This would be hilarious to watch if it wasn’t so damn scary”.

lbrb reminds me of this sentiment.

Dear Chris,

“I Want” Doesn’t Get.
Chris
February 25th, 2011
18:37:11

The Absent WithOut Lunch:

“I Want” Doesn’t Get.

Exactly. The folks screaming they want a (to quote t dennison above) “study that compares VACCINATED CHILDREN AGAINST UNVACCINATED CHILDREN” are not going to get what they want. That is because present research ethics prohibit endangering children, and there is no way a study like that would get past a review board.

Now they could do the type proposed by Prometheus a couple of years ago in the article “Let’s put on a Study!” (which is a modified epidemiological study, like the several that have been done before, and like the one Prometheus described in They DID a study!).
Carl Bainbridge
February 27th, 2011
00:20:52

i am going to comment on that particular issue of vaccinated/unvaccinated studies being unethical.

main point is how can it be “ethical” to use a vaccine whose safety and efficiency is not tested against an unvaccinated cohort.

it is a point that i find particularily puzzling whenever i hear this particular arguement.

another issue i have slightly unrelated is the potential removing of those with “identified immune deficiencies” as the present thought process actually does not involve simply vaccines but a combined genetic/vaccine combination which some people believe may actually be undiagnosed immune deficiencies that could be reacting to the vaccine.

perhaps a most telling study would be testing all children for immune deficiencies BEFORE vaccinating them and then not vaccinating all immune deficient children. It would be of some interest to see if perhaps the incidents of autism decreased under those conditions.

the problem i am finding with most arguments involving vaccines at the moment is that many people on the anti vaccine side are starting to accept a genetic/vaccine combination as the likely cause however many of those who are pro vaccine are arguing based solely on the DR. WAKEFIELD MMR vaccine concept and simply are arguing against vaccines alone. Most anti vaccine people have moved past this arguement and so many of these arguements are disjointed simply because the two sides are arguing different points altogether.
Chris
February 27th, 2011
01:34:49

Mr. Bainbridge, please explain how that study would be done without causing harm to the children who are not vaccinated. I would like you to specifically answer that question using the criteria I set out here (it is earlier in these comments, which I assume you have not read).

I would especially be interested how you would comply with these rules. Also, did you read the links I posted just before your comment? Because it is quite tiresome for you to post the almost exact same thing as “t dennison”, and I see no reason why I should repeat myself. So please stop the “vaccinated/unvaccinated studies” requests until you come up with a viable and safe study.
Carl Bainbridge
February 27th, 2011
02:28:14

what i am saying is that saying that it is unethical to do a vaccinated/unvaccinated study is no different then it being unethical to start giving these vaccinations to children before they do this study.

basically before ANY vaccine into the vaccine schedule this should be a basic requirement to prove safety

i actually dont see how this is even a question.

to me it is basic ethics in medicine. Above all do no harm.
make sure the “vaccine” is safe.
Chris
February 27th, 2011
02:50:25

Then explain clearly how it can be done, and that the study follows the rules (you never did click on it, right) at http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/policy.....ldren.html . Show that you know what you are asking about before commenting on its ethics. Stop continually behaving like a small child asking why he has to brush his teeth before going to bed, or can’t have candy before dinner.
Carl Bainbridge
February 27th, 2011
02:57:35

and in truth following your rules there is an exception that would allow this study.

A fourth category of research requires a special level of HHS review beyond that provided by the IRB.

45 CFR 46.407 – Research that the IRB believes does not meet the conditions of 45 CFR 46.404, 46.405, or 46.406, but finds that the research presents a reasonable opportunity to further the understanding, prevention, or alleviation of a serious problem affecting the health or welfare of children.

If the IRB believes that the research does not meet the requirements of 45 CFR 46.404, 46.405, or 46.406, but finds that it presents a reasonable opportunity to further the understanding, prevention, or alleviation of a serious problem affecting the health or welfare of children, it may refer the protocol to HHS for review. The research may proceed only if the Secretary, HHS, or his or her designee, after consulting with a panel of experts in pertinent disciplines (e.g., science, medicine, education, ethics, law) and following an opportunity for public review and comment, determines either: (1) that the research in fact satisfies the conditions of 45 CFR 46.404, 46.405, or 46.406, or (2) the following:

•the research presents a reasonable opportunity to further the understanding, prevention, or alleviation of a serious problem affecting the health or welfare of children;
•the research will be conducted in accordance with sound ethical principles; and
•adequate provisions are made for soliciting the assent of children and the permission of their parents or guardians, as set forth in HHS regulations at 45 CFR 46.408.

base point being that this research would provide a reasonable opportunity to further the understanding of prevention or alleviation of a serious problem affecting the health or welfare of children. specifically two different issues 1/ autism 2/ vaccination rates.

the major issue is that no specific effort can be made to eliminate subjects due to outside factors.

specifically no specific tests can be made or required of the children before they are placed in the test. basically no prescreening.

the purpose of this is to make sure that the makeup of the test is typical to the standard makeup of a normally vaccinated children.
Chris
February 27th, 2011
03:08:02

Okay, we now know you can cut and paste. Good, now show how you would design the study to protect the unvaccinated children from acquiring vaccine preventable diseases. Especially diseases like measles (which now has three cities on alert), pertussis (which has killed almost a dozen children in California), Hib (which killed a few last year), and tetanus (for which there is no herd immunity). This is part of the •the research will be conducted in accordance with sound ethical principles; bit.

It might help if you wander around PubMed and look at several of these 50000 plus papers.
Carl Bainbridge
February 27th, 2011
03:58:17

basic herd immunity would protect for most instances.

designing the study so that basic herd immunity could be maintained could be achieved simply by selecting a small number of children from several large communities.

tetanus would be more difficult and while my first instinct would be that tetanus would generally exempt from this however it would actually ruin the basis of the test and throw the results into disrepute.

that particular issue would require a different thought process and i am not sure how it could be surpassed. however it is one of very few actual problems when you get right down to it and it could be worked around i am just not sure how yet.
Chris
February 27th, 2011
05:25:37

Mr. Bainbridge:

basic herd immunity would protect for most instances.

Really? Then why did those kids die in Pennsylvania from Hib? Why did those babies die in California from pertussis? How come San Diego had to spend so much on measles control in 2008? Why did a Grant County, WA family have three of their eight children hospitalized that same year? What about kids like these two boys in the UK? What about the people in Boston with measles now! How about today’s measles news?

You cannot exempt tetanus because of first sentence of the link with the rules (which I have linked to more to once!), emphasis added by me:

When a proposed research study involves children and is supported or conducted by HHS, the research institution’s Institutional Review Board (IRB) must take into consideration the special regulatory requirements that provide additional protection for the children who would be involved in the research.

Since you say (finally):

that particular issue would require a different thought process and i am not sure how it could be surpassed. however it is one of very few actual problems when you get right down to it and it could be worked around i am just not sure how yet.

... well come back when you figure it out. Remember that there have been several large epidemiological studies done in several countries spanning three continents that show no casual link between vaccines and autism. Not only do you have to show that no children will be harmed, but also that it is really necessary to carry out the study you want.
McD
February 27th, 2011
05:29:29

@Carl, I just can’t get your logic.

If a child is so immune deficient that they are vulnerable to the antigens in a vaccine, the vaccine is going to be the least of their problems.

And then it will only be the live-virus vaccines that will be an issue for an immune deficient child, and these days, those attenuated virus vaccines are not given until after one-year old.

A genuinely immune deficient child will have been identified by that stage, and their condition is already a factor taken into consideration for vaccination. So what you are suggesting as a study is actually current medical practice.

For the quite rare instance of immunodeficiency not being diagnosed in infancy, the risk for the immunodeficient child is of actually contracting the disease from an attenuated virus. And that risk is way way lower than it would be if these diseases were circulating in the population the way they were 50 years ago.
AWOL
February 27th, 2011
10:17:41

Dr. Maurice Hilleman made astounding revelations in an interview that was cut from The Health Century—the admission that Merck drug company vaccines had been injecting dangerous viruses into people worldwide.

Speak of the Devil…

Hilleman Mercola today

http://articles.mercola.com/si.....ccine.aspx

Bear in mind that Dr. Hilleman was the developer of Merck’s vaccine program. He developed over three dozen vaccines, more than any other scientist in history. He was a member of the U.S. National Academy of Science, the Institute of Medicine, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society. He received a special lifetime achievement award from the World Health Organization. Hilleman was one of the early vaccine pioneers to warn about the possibility that simian viruses might contaminate vaccines.

Great comment from Mercola just hit the link above ..

A person I know had a home video put up on Mercola where before the video had been on You Tube for 2 years and had 300 hits ,in one day Mercola got her 53 thousand hits..amazing the internet ..Egypt springs to mind…
Carl Bainbridge
February 27th, 2011
18:38:02

actually mcd there is some researchers who are actually looking at the possibility of some immune deficiencies being part of the issue when related to autism.

however chris i am going to give you some hard facts

the issues that those children’s parents go through with their child’s measles

any parent of an autistic child has the exact same issues

however the high and mighty pharmaceutical garbage men who slam and slander anyone who questions the safety of vaccines only look at the high profile diseases because to them it is better that our children suffer to make some diseases go away then to make sure that the drugs they produce are actually safe.

the tests need to be done THAT is the ethical imperative to do otherwise is to continue the same problem we have now.

vaccines with uncertain safety records (and questionable efficiencies) being passed over because the risks are getting to be too high.

1% of all children born is to high an incidence rate to not have serious funding and research

more children will be diagnosed this year with autism then with pediatric cancers, HIV and diabetes COMBINED

and yet we get minimal research funding and any advances and attemtpts to get questions answered are slammed constantly by people wanting to save the sanctity of pharmaceutical company profits
Chris
February 27th, 2011
19:12:38

Mr. Bainbridge:

however chris i am going to give you some hard facts

Excuse me? Did you miss the facts? I don’t don’t see anything but unsupported opinion. Next time, try it again with some actual references.

Also, I think it is disgusting that you compared autism with “pediatric cancers, HIV and diabetes.” I dare you to tell the parents of Ben Towne that it was okay he only had cancer and not autism.

And don’t tell me about funding. I have a disabled adult son (from an actual disease! Go figure!) and I know all too well the lack of services.
Tom
February 27th, 2011
20:21:03

Funny that AWOL holds Hilleman in such high regard. He developed vaccines for measles, mumps, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, chickenpox, meningitis, pneumonia and Haemophilus influenzae bacteria.

The Mercola link is typical of his mischaracterization and outright lies. First off, that tape is obviously doctored with a laugh track and can’t be trusted. Secondly, there is no association between SV40 and cancer. Mercola kind of forgets to mention that studies that found an association could not be replicated and also seems to have completely missed the definitive NCI studies that have put this issue to rest:
http://www.cancer.gov/newscent...../2004/sv40

Yes, Hilleman and others deserve credit for making the discovery in a time when modern PCR did not exist to amplify DNA. Their real concerns for vaccine safety led to the removal of the vaccine and to improved purification techniques. It was an unfortunate incident and was corrected. Merck wasn’t the boogie man here. Had you been alive during polio outbreaks, you would understood the urgency in developing a vaccine for this scourge.

And, btw, what does any of this have to do with autism?

AWOL needs an anti-vax spam filter.
novalox
February 27th, 2011
20:30:17

The comic by Garry Trudeau was very enjoyable.

And awol’s comments are good for a laugh, nothing more.
Carl Bainbridge
February 27th, 2011
22:39:32

here is the fucking problem with jack asses like you

autism is a fucking actual disease and it is losers like you who refuse to realize the crap we have to deal with on a daily basis which create 90% of our hassles

on any daily basis due to our childrens disability we will get physically attacked

on any daily basis we will have to repeatedly change diapers because our children are years behind getting toilet trained because they just dont understand

these children will be with us long after a parent with a cancer patient child or an HIV child will have to deal with it.

and yes while they will likely deal with the loss we will still be dealing with a 40 year old child who is still unable to communicate, highly likely to still attack us at any given time for any reason, still be in diapers. etc.

so when we die of old age our child who will likely be 60+ and still unable to carefor himself if he is unlucky enough to not have another family member with the ability to care for them is highly likely to be placed in a jail simply because there is no other facility that is capable of dealing with him

and this is all because wacko losers like you dont get that

AUTISM IS A SERIOUS FUCKING DISABILITY WITH LIFE CHANGING AND LIFE LONG REPRECUSSIONS
Autism Mom
February 28th, 2011
00:00:09

Chris you really don’t know anything about autism and you really should educate yourself before commenting on the subject
70% of children with autism suffer with bowel diease and are in constant pain daily .
Tom
February 28th, 2011
00:17:29

Autism Mom and Carl Bainbridge come her to “educate” people with autism and their parents about the condition? Save your breath.
Dedj
February 28th, 2011
00:24:56

“Chris you really don’t know anything about autism and you really should educate yourself before commenting on the subject
70% of children with autism suffer with bowel disease and are in constant pain daily .”

What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?

Put some effort in.
Dedj
February 28th, 2011
00:29:06

“AUTISM IS A SERIOUS FUCKING DISABILITY WITH LIFE CHANGING AND LIFE LONG REPRECUSSIONS”

No one here has denied this, and it is dishonest to imply that anyone has.

Provide a direct quote or retract your offensive, dismissive and derogatory accusations.

Also, learn how to behave. There are people here who have to deal with one or more ill or chronically disabled people in thier direct families (ironically including the people you lambast). It is absolutely selfish of you to expect them to put up with all that and such rudeness and behaviour in thier spare time just because you hold aggressive opinions.
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
00:32:53

actually tom my comment was aimed at chris who basically said autism is not a real disability

obviously if he feels this way he has no understanding of autism whatsoever
Chris
February 28th, 2011
00:33:59

Awww, it looks like I hit a nerve. Again, Mr. Bainbridge and “Autism Mom”, you are posting unsupported opinions with any evidence. And like Dedj say, it really has nothing to do with Jenny McCarthy’s unsupported opinions on vaccines and autism.

Plus, you both insulted many of the LBRB regulars who are autistic adults.
Autism Mom
February 28th, 2011
00:39:06

Chris i could always send you some evidence lol
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
00:51:54

actually chris you did not hit a nerve you pissed me off

there is a real difference.

i do know that there are many bigots out there who want all autistics to be closeted up and jailed.

however the truth is that while i do disagree in general with lbrb what i had to say is also the complete truth

if you dont believe me come meet my son, i have a few other children around here i could introduce you to as well who fall into the same category that i just described.

i dont doubt that there are some autistics that can lead a fully functional(or close to it) life however they are the minority and in the process, because they are so close to NT there tends to be an attempt to ignore that there are a large number who will never leave their parents home.

one adult i met probably in his 40’s still lived at home and did nothing but sit in captain’s chair removed from his parents van and rocked all day long.

and ignoring that these people exist does not help anyone because when we as parent’s die these children will be left to fend for themselves, usually ending up on the streets or in jail’s (or in those places where mental institutions exist be placed there) these are not appropriate places for them but because they as a group get ignored there is no research or effort put into creating places for this group.

but as far as evidence goes i welcome you to come and visit our family because i can guarantee you 70% of autistic children do actually have bowel issues and suffer regularily. come visit i can even let you change a diaper just to get the point.
sharon
February 28th, 2011
00:57:44

OK peeps, it might be time for a deep breath and a tad of compassion for each other? We are all walking an unchosen path as parents and individuals who have more challenges than most. Getting into a competition about who has it the toughest is not useful.

Carl and Autism Mom, just because some of us choose a different narrative when we consider ASD does not mean we don’t understand the hardhsips. Also I have to admit to being a tad dubious about the 70% stat you quote Autism Mom. Got a citation for that?
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
01:24:58

my issue sharon is that by not focusing on research to find the true causes (my actual belief is genetic/environmental combination with environmental likely being vaccine related) and treatments/cures as well as focusing on long term care for those who are not fortunate enough to be able to function relatively close to NT that we are leading to issues like that seen here

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_.....fifth-time

http://www.azcentral.com/news/.....utism.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaJHfOBuzfQ

http://www.thestar.com/news/ca.....-for-weeks

http://canadiancrc.com/Newspap.....OCT05.aspx

while it is good to focus on the accomplishments of those who can achieve close to NT status or even better those who can achieve the status of “savant” http://www.aparentsperspective.....brain.html

it is also imperative to spend a serious portion of effort looking at how to avoid long term care issues as well as public endangerment issues that come from those who are severly affected by autism and are not likely to ever be able to truely function seperately from a full time care situation.

when we focus solely on the achievements of those who are achieving NT-like success, and the media is showing articles like those i showed above it means that those who are close to NT but still known to be autistic will never be completely trusted because no one will ever be sure how far they might be away from a situation that might put them in that type of situation.

we get to far away from research when we attempt to stifle any attempt to look into any possible avenue of research

it does not matter what the actual cause is that cause needs to be identified and that can only be done through true comprehensive research. That research cannot happen when the community in and of itself supports anyone who is belittling any opinion in to possible causes no matter what it is.

The autistic community as a whole needs to stand up with a united voice and say ” we need to identify the true cause(s) of autism regardless what it is and regardless who we upset in the process”
Chris
February 28th, 2011
01:52:34

Mr. Bainbridge:

one adult i met probably in his 40’s still lived at home and did nothing but sit in captain’s chair removed from his parents van and rocked all day long.

I am not ignoring those people, but I do realize they are a small percentage of the total, and I doubt your son will end up that way. Autism is not developmental stasis, it is more of a developmental delay. And the scientific consensus from several large epidemiological studies covering hundreds of thousands of children in several countries on three continents is that autism is not casually associated with vaccines.

Here are some books written by parents of autistic children to give you some perspective, the last one is fiction:
Unstrange Minds by R.R. Grinker
Not Even Wrong by Paul Collins
Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon

Autism Mom, next time you make an assertion provide the evidence. Do not offer to send it individually. Make it part of the whole group conversation. Like this:

Pediatrics. 2009 Aug;124(2):680-6. Epub 2009 Jul 27.
Incidence of gastrointestinal symptoms in children with autism: a population-based study.
Ibrahim SH, Voigt RG, Katusic SK, Weaver AL, Barbaresi WJ.

and

BMJ. 2002 Aug 24;325(7361):419-21.
Relation of childhood gastrointestinal disorders to autism: nested case-control study using data from the UK General Practice Research Database.
Black C, Kaye JA, Jick H.
McD
February 28th, 2011
02:09:10

@Autism Mom. This morning I have spoken with 6 mothers and an aunt of children with ASD. Counting my own children, that makes nine autistic children (and one AS Adult). Not one has bowel disease or is in constant pain daily. If your 70% figure were correct, these nine happy healthy kids would be a serious statistical anomaly. Please provide a reference for your 70% bowel disease figure.
sharon
February 28th, 2011
02:43:56

@ Carl, I can appreciate your frustration. I wonder how you feel about those who claim to have ‘cured’ their children, thereby offering fals hope to others? I too think genetic/environmental combo, but not vaccine related. My son was born ASD, so no post birth environmental factor is at play with him (incidentally he is fully vaccinated and has no gut issues).

I would ask you for a moment to consider some of the generalisations you seem to make about those at the ‘high functioning’ end of the spectrum. I assume you are not suggesting that their path is an easy one. Having a profound awareness of your difference can be difficult. Wanting to make connections with others, but being unable to either make or sustain them is painful. There are other specific challenges for people who by comparison to your son may seem ‘fortunate’. I in no way want to minimise how tough things are for you. But please appreciate that even those of us with children who can functional reasonably well still have the same worries about how our children will live happy, fulfilling and safe lives. Particularly after we have gone.

Incidentally those who achieve savant status tend to have serious deficits in others areas of functioning. The brain can only do so much, and it is my understanding that when it is focussed on performing such specialised feats it tends to compromise other functions. I will try to recall the article where I read about this recently if you are interested.
Sullivan
February 28th, 2011
03:12:45

Carl Bainbridge,

I would urge you to read this blog for content, and put aside the images that many have tried to create about it. There are a lot of strawman arguments out there, and you are repeating a lot of them.

The autistic community as a whole needs to stand up with a united voice and say ” we need to identify the true cause(s) of autism regardless what it is and regardless who we upset in the process”

Are you aware that the majority of causation research funding is focused on environmental causation and gene-environment? You can find that out if you read this blog. You won’t if you read the blogs that promote vaccine-causation. Tell me, who is scared of the true answer?

The fact is that thimerosal “epidemic” didn’t happen. Time and again studies have shown this. And yet there is massive denial of the multiple studies that show this. Who is upset in the process?

MMR doesn’t cause autism. Even Rick Rollens, once one of the great proponents of the theory, admitted it when the Hornig study was published. Epidemiological studies have shown again and again that there is no increased risk of autism from MMR. Who is upset in the process?

In both case, the groups upset in the process are those who deny the science. Those who promote vaccine-causation.

People like Jenny McCarthy. That’s what this post was about. Jenny McCarthy, whose kid regressed something like 18 months after his MMR. A little factoid she doesn’t make very clear in her promotion of fear. Jenny McCarthy, whose promotes a vaccine schedule that in the end has only one vaccine-polio. Jenny McCarthy, who supports Andrew Wakefield, a man found guilty of multiple counts of unethical behavior.

If you bothered to actually read this blog, you would see clearly that we don’t need to be lectured about the needs of those with the greatest challenges. You wouldn’t feel the need to lecture about the fact that autism is a disability. “when we focus solely on the achievements of those who are achieving NT-like success” Who is we? Certainly not me. Tomorrow’s blog post is about pain management in nonverbal patients with ID. Written Friday, by the way, in case you think I may have written it in response to this.

“and ignoring that these people exist does not help anyone because when we as parent’s die these children will be left to fend for themselves”

75% of my kid’s life will be spent as an adult. 50% without me for support. You don’t think that thought doesn’t cross my mind every hour? Stop believing what you read on other blogs. This (vaccine causation) isn’t a discussion between parents of challenged kids and parents of “NT-like” kids. Take a look at recent posts. You will find more action alters from “The Arc” than from “ASAN”.

So, I would ask you, put the strawmen aside. Stop this “savant” and “NT-like” train of thought. It doesn’t belong here. I can point you to blogs that keep that strawman alive, in spite of all the evidence that keeps getting put in front of them. They’d love to have you join them wasting time fighting a battle that doesn’t exist.
Chris
February 28th, 2011
06:27:29

McD:

@Autism Mom. This morning I have spoken with 6 mothers and an aunt of children with ASD. Counting my own children, that makes nine autistic children (and one AS Adult).

That sounds familiar. I remember when my son was in preschool and elementary school having those kinds of conversations. Often during birthday parties. Those are the ones where the more than one child with echolia was was walking through the house reciting the lines of an entire movie (well, at least we did not find him in a tree, he was a compulsive tree climber), and there were a couple stimming, plus the young lady who went through the house moving things about. Months later I was still finding bits of ribbon in all parts of the house. Good times.

This was before 1994, so none of them were diagnosed with autism. That happened later with the revised DSM.

I occasionally run into either the child or the mother. One child who was not potty trained until fourth grade was doing quite well in a computer repair technical school, and one other child who had private speech therapy at the same time as my son is still quite disabled (but he is a sweet at twenty-two as he was when he was eight years old). It goes through the entire spectrum, and my son is somewhere in between those young men.

Also, I should let you know that I really feel for Ms. McCarthy and her son’s seizures. They are just freaking scary! I know, since I have had to deal with my son’s seizures. They are quite frequent with my son’s classmates. One of them would stop breathing when he had a seizure. This is not a minor issues. But it is also something that has happened to kids long before there were vaccines. My son’s first seizure started when he was two days old, before he had any vaccine (this was before the HepB vaccine).

I really really hope that Ms. McCarthy has a good pediatric neurologist for her son. It saddened me when I heard he had another seizure recently.

Hmmmm… I see what Sullivan quoted. Perhaps I should change that to:

The seizure community as a whole needs to stand up with a united voice and say ” we need to identify the true cause(s) of seizures regardless what it is and regardless who we upset in the process”

How does that sound? Or is it not as important?
Chris
February 28th, 2011
09:13:36

(Personally I am amused by those who try to educate me on issues on disability, which I have dealt with for at least two decades. Especially when I discover their kid is less than one quarter the age of my son. Wow. Got cojones? O es su un idiota? Me gusto mucho http://blog.epiren.com/ ... lee eso! Ahora!)
Autism Mom
February 28th, 2011
13:52:38

McD
I did say children and not adults and most children with autism i know have bowel diease
so your statement proves nothing
I did have the link for the study at one time but my motherboard fried last year so i lost everything
When i find it i will post it
Autism Mom
February 28th, 2011
14:06:25

Dedj

Chris said I have a disabled adult son (from an actual disease! Go figure!) and I know all too well the lack of services.

So he was saying that Autism is not a diease?
Autism Mom
February 28th, 2011
14:24:26

I have a relative that works for a company that is linked to a pharmaceutical company that states
“What goes in come out”
Why do most employees of pharmaceutical companies never get vaccinated?
Brian Morgan
February 28th, 2011
14:38:50

“Why do most employees of pharmaceutical companies never get vaccinated?”

Interesting, but is there evidence for this?
Autism Mom
February 28th, 2011
14:46:05

50%
American Academy of Pediatrics (2010, May 3). Gastrointestinal problems common in children with autism. ScienceDaily. Retrieved February
Sullivan
February 28th, 2011
17:05:33

From the concensus report in Pediatrics:

Statement 3
The prevalence of gastrointestinal abnormalities in individuals with ASDs is incompletely understood.

The reported prevalence of gastrointestinal symptoms in children with ASDs has ranged from 9% to 70% or higher (Table 4). 13,16–25 Prospective descriptive reports from autism clinics have described significant gastrointestinal symptoms in at least 70% of patients,22 data that might reflect a referral bias. In contrast, secondary analysis of a UK database indicated that the prevalence of gastrointestinal symptoms was no different in children with ASDs compared with children without ASDs (9%) at the time of their initial ASD diagnosis.16
”
Chris
February 28th, 2011
18:36:44

Autism Mom:

So he was saying that Autism is not a diease?

Who? What? Could you be more clear on what you are quoting, and trying to say, please?
Julian Frost
February 28th, 2011
19:06:29

Autism Mom,
Chris is female.
In addition, McD’s statement may prove nothing, but yours also proves nothing. The plural of anecdote isn’t data.
Autism Mom
February 28th, 2011
19:11:03

@chris YOU
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
19:14:39

i am going to answer the various commenters seperately to avoid confusion.

@sharon starting with the savant issue
realistically there is only one savant i am aware of that does not appear to have otherwise serious issues and that is the one i posted the link to. most others to the best of my knowledge do appear to have specific serious issues.

as far as the cure issue goes i stand middle of the road.
I do tend believe that the vast majority of those “cures” are individual specific at best and coincidental at worst. tho i do believe a cure may be possible it is unlikely we will approach that knowledge until we identify the various factors or combination of factors that lead to autism.

i am curious on the gut issue position i myself know several with the gut issues (far more then do not have them)

i guess perhaps the question is are we all talking the same thing. in our case we are talking a child who since before he was 2 has not had a single solid bowel movement with the various movements varying between soft, sticky, diarhea, and coloured water consistencies but nothing that could be considered even close to solid.
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
19:47:33

@Sullivan i have always fairly solidly maintained that i did not believe in a solely vaccine causation however i also am not convinced that the studies presently done have in any way eliminated the possibility either.

from what i have managed to find (without access to a paid subscription to medical journals as that is way beyond my means) is that the majority of studies aimed at debunking the vaccine belief have focused on specific chemicals (like thimersol) alone without including that those chemicals are interacting with other chemicals as well as the live or dead virus that is used in the vaccine. those reactions alone could be sufficient to potentially alter the results of any given study.

as for the MMR vaccine i think that to much effort has been spent on this vaccine specifically without looking at other vaccines as well (both given in combination as occurs in various areas and given seperately across time and the cumulative effects of that accumulation. Could it be that in various individuals a specific vaccine may be just one to many)

another issue in my mind with MMR is that i would like to see an in depth study comparing autism rates with the combined MMR versus seperate measles mumbs and rubella vaccines.

i do think people’s reactions to Jenny McCarthy are completely wrong tho. Not because she is right or wrong but because she is one of the only public figures who is promoting autism regardless of the angle she is promoting. Any promotion by public figures needs to be embraced while still maintaining you as a group or an individual may hold a vastly different view point

as far as the Dr Wakefield position there is still vastly differing views on his guilt. Myself i accept that there were regulatory issues that were definitely involved in his study i find the attacks he took for the MMR link were largely unwarranted. in his study he said he found traces of it in the gut of children and all of these children did have gut issues. To my knowledge it was never covered up that all these children were brought to him saying “look all these children have autism and all of them have gut issues. can you tell us why” he was approached from the original information i read long before this study became a beating post.

now do i agree some of his techniques were questionable but i do realistically believe that he was struck off solely because he was seen as the originator of the autism/vaccine link not because his study was flawed. (personal opinion) as a further aside his results have been replicated and i hope to find that study to bring the link here however that study was not well covered (and if my memory serves me correctly the author of that study was quietly struck off as well)

as far as the lecture on severe vs NT like i do feel it was warranted not necessarily based on the site but based on the comments i had read on this link alone.
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
20:03:54

@chris i am going to comment on a couple of things you said (tho not necessarily to me)

one is the DSM i do not find that the enlargement of the DSM is actually that helpful to autistics as a whole. (it actually damages research and beliefs of the entire spectrum)
yes it is true that the general concepts of stimming/social difficulties etc are similar however the overall appearances are different and trying to find a single cause to cover all the spectrum may be misplaced.

for example take asperger’s, autism and PDD-NOS. All of these are now considered part of the spectrum however all of them are quite different. In our case our son is more along the lines of core autism however i also know those from the asperger’s and PDD-NOS groups (the PDD-NOS was not even identified as having difficulties till grade 4 while most autism is diagnosed by age 3) but the general fact is that all of them have individual specific differences that makes a common trigger unlikely.

a similar example that needs to be looked at perhaps is cancer. today research in cancer looks separately at breast,pancreatic,testicular cancers as well as leukemia as all are understood to be different even tho all are termed as cancers. It is highly likely that to have any true understanding of the various groups of autism that they will each have to be studied separately as well.
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
20:12:57

@Sullivan on your post regarding the gut issues i see what is written however and i have a big however. if we were in the UK and considered part of that study we would be classed outside the 9% with gut issues. Not because they dont exist but because we have never made an issue of bringing it to the doctor’s attention. I believe this is likely part of the issue behind the difference in numbers. another issue is at what point do they consider it a gut issue. point being when our son was diagnosed his gut was no different then it is now however he was not diagnosed with a gut issue of any form even tho at that time he had not had a solid diaper in at least a year. (and a fecal sample was taken)

i think the fact of the gut issues is far truer then you might realize and is simply not backed up by the numbers because parents are not reporting it as well as the labs are not identifying it.(personal opinion)
Sullivan
February 28th, 2011
20:51:40

“as far as the lecture on severe vs NT like i do feel it was warranted not necessarily based on the site but based on the comments i had read on this link alone.”

Would you be so good as to provide quotes to the comments you have read that led you to make your comments?

“as far as the Dr Wakefield position there is still vastly differing views on his guilt.”

There is a small group of supporters, true. But he presented his case in a hearing and was found guilty. Much of his defense, in hearing and since, is rubbish, to put it nicely.

As an example of the talking points that he produced and are incorrect—He was not merely approached by parents. He took an active role in recruiting children for the study.

“in his study he said he found traces of it in the gut of children and all of these children did have gut issues.”

By “it” I suppose you mean measles virus? I expect that paper to be retracted this year. That is a later study, by Uhlmann et al.. The methods used were incredibly poor, and it is clear that he was reporting false positives. He also ignored the clear negative results—from his own group at the Royal Free.

The vaccine-causation groups would do well to cut ties with Andrew Wakefield. He’s so clearly a fraud as to make supporting him a liability.
Sullivan
February 28th, 2011
21:10:52

i do think people’s reactions to Jenny McCarthy are completely wrong tho. Not because she is right or wrong but because she is one of the only public figures who is promoting autism regardless of the angle she is promoting. Any promotion by public figures needs to be embraced while still maintaining you as a group or an individual may hold a vastly different view point

At this point we diverge. Here is a quote from the forward to Jenny McCarthy’s first autism related book:

“Autism, as I see it, steals the soul from a child; then, if allowed, relentlessly sucks life’s marrow out of the family members, one by one. It relegates every other “normal” thing to utter insignificance.”

This is not a message I will embrace. This is not a public stance that should be made about humans. This is damaging. This is a position I will push back against, whether the person is a celebrity or not, whether the person claims to be “promoting autism” or not.
Dedj
February 28th, 2011
21:27:38

“Dedj

Chris said I have a disabled adult son (from an actual disease! Go figure!) and I know all too well the lack of services.

So he was saying that Autism is not a diease?”

Fascinating. Also of zero relevance to the question you were asked.

Don’t forget that it’s common courtesy to make sure that posts make sense outside of your head too.

Let’s ignore your opening comments, as it’s fairly clear you do not understand (or will not admit to) the problem with them, and let’s look forward to you substantiating your response to Chris’s questions with a direct quote or similar.

Toodle off and get to it.
Chris
February 28th, 2011
21:46:43

Ms. McCarthy’s son has a seizure disorder, which is very serious and not autism. For all we know he may Landau-Kleffner Syndrome, something that my son was tested for (he could not speak, and he does now after over ten years of speech therapy, but it is often hard to understand). As Sullivan and I have mentioned, the young boy’s very serious seizure happened months after his MMR vaccine. So it was not caused by the vaccine.

Also, anti-seizure medications are not benign. They can cause developmental problems for a young child. But if her son does not take them, he could have more seizures, and since the seizures he has had have interfered with his heart, the seizures can very well kill him. My heart goes out to Ms. McCarthy and her son.

I know my son’s first seizures were not caused by vaccines, because they occurred before he had any vaccines. I also know his last very serious seizure was caused by a very serious, and now vaccine preventable illness. Yet, the pediatric neurologist would only say that his disabilities “may or may not be associated with a history of seizures.”

Diseases cause far more seizures than vaccines. And I know from personal experience that seizures are not trifling matters. LKS is one condition that is very much like autism, but is a seizure disorder. Now if anyone has real scientific evidence that vaccines are more dangerous than the illnesses they prevent, please present it.

Until then, I agree with Mr. Trudeau that Ms. McCarthy is a public menace.

Autism Mom, I still don’t understand what you are trying to say. Could you try using full sentences, please?
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
22:47:52

actually @sullivan it was mainly this one from Chris

Awww, it looks like I hit a nerve. Again, Mr. Bainbridge and “Autism Mom”, you are posting unsupported opinions with any evidence. And like Dedj say, it really has nothing to do with Jenny McCarthy’s unsupported opinions on vaccines and autism.

Plus, you both insulted many of the LBRB regulars who are autistic adults.

that implies that my position that autism is a real disability that opens us to daily physical attacks from our children is insulting autistic adults who are functioning.

this becomes a major issue anytime people with severly autistic children post or comment about major issues we deal with on a daily basis. It is not limited to this blog by anymeans however it is almost like there is a group who have infiltrated themselves into the autism community who find it is beneficial to keep those of us who have severly autistic children at odds with those who are near NT, which is something i think is not conducive to improving the accessibility of research because as long as the face of the autistic community is the high functioning or near NT then it makes the disability appear to be something that can be easily managed. This is not the case in a large percentage of cases and even leads some parents (I have seen them do it myself) hide the disability their child has, burying them in their house and not taking them out and asking any therapists that do come to see the child to hide all markings of where they come from and why.

there is another subgroup of severly autistic childrens parents who are quite open and willing to acknowledge that their childrens disability but find that we are told we insult those who are high functioning when we discuss our autistic childrens major behavioural issues and the long term care that they will require that is not available.

we love our children but we realize they have serious issues that will not be resolved without a complete change in the thinking regarding autism. without starting to look at autism as a major disability that is going to create a life long care issues and longterm justice issues if we do not develop a long term strategy aimed at ending the increases in incidents of autism we are seeing. depending on your source we are looking at just under or just over 1% of all children being born will be diagnosed with autism and we have to treat it like that whole group will be severly affected because if we dont then the focus will not be on ending the increase and if we do not end the increase then eventually (sooner rather then later i suspect) we will reach a point at which more people will be diagnosed with autism then not and at that point who will be around to find the cause then (who will be around to care for those that need it)
Chris
February 28th, 2011
23:04:19

Mr. Bainbridge, please read this.
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
23:04:36

also something that generally find disturbing is the quick dismissal of anecdotal evidence.

while some say anecdotal evidence is not data and that is essentially true there is something to be said for it.

data is found in tightly controlled scentific trials while anecdotal evidence is found in real life. they are both valid in their place and it is anecdotal evidence that often leads to research ideas.

dismissing anecdotal evidence as does a serious diservice both to yourself and to those who actually have lived those situations
McD
February 28th, 2011
23:23:12

@Chris, yes I agree, seizures are a genuine problem for autistic kids, with epilepsy a common co-morbid diagnosis. We count ourselves very fortunate that our boys don’t have seizures (that we know of – NZ does not offer EEG testing for autistic children). A mum who is in the same behavior therapy program as my son told me how her boy would make good progress in therapy, only to have the gains ‘wiped’ every time he had a seizure, which must be awful. This is another area of research which will only suffer if resources are diverted to investigating Waker’s dodgy gut-brain theory.

I do hope young Evan is OK as well. I think I differ from a number of posters here who think he was mis-diagnosed. I doubt he would have been enrolled in the UCLA Young Autism Project without having a a series of assessments by qualified people (not Dr Gordon), and other kids in the YAP have made gains similar to Evan’s (not that they claim ‘recovery’ as Jenny does).
McD
February 28th, 2011
23:33:36

@Autism Mom. I only said one adult. Nine children, all under the age of 11 years. No gut problems (beyond normal childhood short-duration illnesses). Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised to see some increased issues with things like constipation – due to behavioral/eating issues which autistic children face. My boy had a bout of constipation a while back when he decided to only eat noodles for a while. We added soluble fiber to his juice, and he was fine.

Sullivan’s post sheds light on the issue – which end of the range is the accurate one though?

If the base rate of childhood gut issues is around 9% as the ref indicates, that is quite high and it is not too surprising that a number of parents would link gut issues and autism – particularly if they discount the impact of gut issues in NT kids. That so many autistic kids are in diapers for so much longer will ensure that parents are paying more attention to bowel issues in autistic kids than NT kids.

This is one area where research would be problematic – with referral bias, behavioral issues impacting bowel habits, different toileting needs between ASD and NT kids, and increased vigilance in ASD parents due to Jenny and Andy’s widely publicized (but dodgy) gut-brain hypothesis.

All these confounds would increase estimates of ASD gut problems, so for these reasons, I think the conservative figures are likely to be more accurate.
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
23:41:59

@chris i find the other blog actually quite good tho if i had to use my son on that scale saying 1 is a low_autism day and 10 is a high autism day i would say my son starts on 6 on a good day and can move to 8 at any given time without notice.

simply because my son has no other underlying issues like ID (i consider SIB to be a function of autism) i hesitate to rank his rougher days into the 9 or 10 range.
Carl Bainbridge
February 28th, 2011
23:52:36

@McD i tend to disagree i suspect many people just consider it a fact of life when dealing with an autistic and don’t bother to report it.

i suspect the number is actually much closer to the 70%
Chris
March 1st, 2011
00:01:34

McD:

I doubt he would have been enrolled in the UCLA Young Autism Project without having a a series of assessments by qualified people

I did not know this. Do you have a reference? He could have had an evaluation of autism, especially with the expansive definition in the DSM IV. The neurologist assured me my son did not have autism despite the lack of speech and the tics, but that was in 1991. He might have said something if it was just a few years later.

I don’t think EEGs are common in testing for autism. My son had them, well, because he had seizures. And for many children without speech it is common to get an EEG (typically a sleep EEG for LKS), in addition to a hearing test. (I recently saw a TED talk video from some neurology researcher who was advocating EEGs for kids with autism, because some of the kids she found had little seizures, and a couple of of her examples seemed to recover when put on medication—- it was posted on the Healthfraud listserv a while ago, and I don’t keep those emails.)

Autism is now so broad in definition, it cannot be considered one disorder with one cause. Just like seizures. Or stroke (another article for Mr. Bainbridge to read):

I can close my eyes and be 30 and holding my nine year old son in his hospital bed, after his stroke, his right side paralyzed, his speech gone.

McD:

This is another area of research which will only suffer if resources are diverted to investigating Waker’s dodgy gut-brain theory.

Agreed. Human brains are complicated, and it really doesn’t take much to muck things up. And then again, sometimes they recover and/or compensate in what seem miraculous ways.

I just finished reading V. S. Ramachandran’s The Tell-Tale Brain. Years ago I read his A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness: From Impostor Poodles to Purple Numbers, in addition to almost every single one of Oliver Sacks’ books, plus both by Temple Grandin… and the very quirky Postcards from the Brain Museum by Brian Burrell. I think those provide more insight to autism, autism like conditions, seizure disorders and the like than pursuing the specious vaccine claims.
Carl Bainbridge
March 1st, 2011
00:33:04

actually chris i find that a good article tho not necessarily for the reasons you wanted. I have not heard much about strokes being linked to autism so i have no concept on that particular issue whatsoever

however what was very interesting was the trend of the article and while the writer and i went in different directions. she falling into a “pit” etc, i went the other direction. I started to look for answers and found nothing but questions, half truth’s and brush offs. At that point i vowed one thing to myself. I will get to the bottom of what is behind this autism thing. I will do it regardless who does or does not want the truth found and if i have to do the research myself i will.

my son for all his issues is one of the most precious things in my life and on a good day (and even sometimes on a bad day) he can make us giggle because somewhere deep inside he knows when he is being funny and regardless of his behaviours, inside his eyes you can tell he knows when he is being the center of attention for good reasons and he really does enjoy it.

and from my personal perspective i really do believe that everyone should for a time have the opportunity to care full time for a disabled child. Once you do your outlook on life will fully and completely change. they know they are different and yet you can truly see that in many ways (outside the meltdowns) they really seem happier then all the rest of us.

So i will push on in my quest for answers and i will push on in my quest for funding because deep in my heart i want my son to have the ability to express that happiness to the rest of us and to this point he cannot and that lack of ability to communicate more then anything else is what causes the largest part of his behaviours
Sullivan
March 1st, 2011
01:13:05

“as long as the face of the autistic community is the high functioning or near NT ”

Since when has the “face of the autistic community” been the “high functioning or near NT”? Seriously. The “face” for whatever that means is (a) parent activists and (b) children.
KWombles
March 1st, 2011
02:29:56

Bainbridge,

I think you really misread my piece. In no way did I go into the pit; I wrote that I understood how parents can.
Sullivan
March 1st, 2011
02:45:40

KWombles,

I didn’t realize that he was referring to your blog. It was not a clear discussion. Rather a lot of that in various places, no?

As to falling into the pit, all I could think of in hearing that is looking up into the albino’s face…
KWombles
March 1st, 2011
02:59:00

Sullivan,

Yup, took me a minute to connect it, too, although I knew it was from the quote from Chris; a whole lot of muddy discussions going on in places. :-)
Chris
March 1st, 2011
03:50:04

Well, I have attempted to narrow back down to the claims of Ms. McCarthy. Mainly that I know my son’s seizures had nothing to do with vaccines, and it is fairly clear that seizures occurring months after the MMR are not related to the vaccine.

I also wanted to be clear I am very sympathetic to the very severe nature of her son’s seizure disorder, but that it does not mean I will not criticize her very wrong statements on vaccines. That is why she is a public menace. I think her celebrity status would have been better served bringing awareness to seizures.

I linked to Kim’s article because it was an example of more neurological issues, and that we do understand other parents. But I hoped he would have also seen Kim’s joy and pride in her kids (which is what many of her blog posts include). And to read the last paragraph:

I don’t know what the answer is, how to respond, what to say, when I’ve seen that line obliterated. It gives me tremendous pause. But let me suggest this: if all you see is pain and the pit when you see your child, you’ve walked up to that line and started stepping across it. It’s time you reached out and got some help.

It would be useful if folks did stay on topic, and try to be more clear as to who they are quoting, and what they are responding to.
Dedj
March 1st, 2011
04:09:27

“that implies that my position that autism is a real disability that opens us to daily physical attacks from our children is insulting autistic adults who are functioning.”

Yes, that is exactly what was insulting, derogatory and of very limited anecdotal or ‘real-world’ value. You’ve even just done it again.

When you present a complex disorder in such a mono-faceted catastrophising brutally over-simplified way, then people are going to take offence at both your condesencion and your attempts at forcing your anecdata to be accepted as the only valid way of looking at autism unless one has “no understanding of autism whatsoever”.

The fact that you pulled the very morally and logically dodgy trick of justifying it by saying that anecdata has its place (which doesn’t answer the concerns regarding the problems concerning accuracy that is present in anecdata) is of serious concern, and a very strong indicator that your anecdata should be treated with serious trepidation.
McD
March 1st, 2011
04:13:17

@Chris. Jenny writes about it in Louder Than Words. Jenny McCarthy started Evan at a private Behavior Analysis institute while he was on the wait list for UCLA, then he was with the UCLA program, then she moved to a home-based program (she could afford to do 40 hrs/wk one-on-one at home – not many others could).

So Evan was getting getting state-of-the-art behavior therapy, but to listen to Jenny, the diet and supplements are the take-home message.

To save actually reading the book, any number of online reviewers mention various aspects of the Behavior Therapy programs Evan was on. Although many have a go at her for not mentioning some of the less rigorous behavior therapies and only talking about ABA (Lovaas started the UCLA program, although the modern program bears little resemblance to the original, he is still pretty unpopular for his early use of aversives).

Here is a relatively easy to read review that mentions the behavior therapy programs:
http://www.myspace.com/438667840/blog

If you are up to trolling through some awful reviews on Amazon, a few people mention her discussion of ABA, but you have to dig through the rabid anti-vax fans:
http://www.amazon.com/Louder-T.....0525950117

Without all the supplement/diet/chelation mumbo-jumbo, a reasonable minority of kids respond very well to ABA (and some of the other Behavioral programs). And Evan was on an intensive program while very young – classic conditions for a good response. So people claiming – without having seen Evan or his medical records – that he ‘never had autism’ are in their own way as one-eyed as Jenny is in claiming to have healed him with bio-med. There is actually a far simpler hypothesis – Evan had a good (but non-miraculous) response to behavior therapy.
Chris
March 1st, 2011
04:35:13

Thanks a bunch for the information. I stand corrected.

McD:

So Evan was getting getting state-of-the-art behavior therapy, but to listen to Jenny, the diet and supplements are the take-home message.

The local university has an experimental educational program where they try out various techniques for preschoolers with disabilities. The kids in the program get a small preschool, transportation in small buses, and various therapies (speech, OT/PT, pragmatic, play, etc): for absolutely no cost to the parent (it is funded through research grants, some by the school district and a very big annual auction).

A friend was a speech therapist there, and related to me that a parent was so pleased at the progress her child had made. Expecting to be thanked for all of her hard work, she was shocked when the parent credited the special diet and supplements, and ignored the hours of free real therapy the child received!
Interverbal
March 1st, 2011
04:46:44

“Not because she is right or wrong but because she is one of the only public figures who is promoting autism regardless of the angle she is promoting. Any promotion by public figures needs to be embraced while still maintaining you as a group or an individual may hold a vastly different view point”

Okay, I can think of an esteemed man who made autism part of his life’s work. He had a compelling and tragic personal life, heroic in some ways. He wrote a famous book (non- autism related) used as the inspiration for a beloved Broadway musical (Into the Woods). Ladies and gentlemen, presenting Mr. Bruno Bettelheim. Shall we start the embracing?

“In our case our son is more along the lines of core autism however i also know those from the asperger’s and PDD-NOS groups (the PDD-NOS was not even identified as having difficulties till grade 4 while most autism is diagnosed by age 3)”

Average age of diagnosis for Autistic Disorder (3.1 years)
Average age of diagnosis for PDD-NOS (3.9 years)
(Mandell et al. 2005)

“data is found in tightly controlled scentific trials while anecdotal evidence is found in real life. they are both valid in their place and it is anecdotal evidence that often leads to research ideas.”

“Valid in their place” being the operative phrase. Otherwise “valid” becomes a slippery term applied to any expedient observation/thought.
sharon
March 1st, 2011
05:07:11

@McD and Chris, I recently spent some time perusing a mummy blog who is following the DAN, bio medical, homeopathic route. When I pushed her she admitted to also using ABA therapy for her son. Yet never mentions it in her blog posts. She sings the praises of voodoo water, yet will never acknowledge the role of ABA in her sons progress. When I asked about this on her blog my comment was deleted. I find this to be an interesting phenomenon.
Chris
March 1st, 2011
05:43:22

Interverbal:

Ladies and gentlemen, presenting Mr. Bruno Bettelheim. Shall we start the embracing?

Yikes! Information about his work in the last couple of decades have not been very flattering:

The Creation of Doctor B: A Biography of Bruno Bettelheim:

A twisted path of deception, self-invention, and plagiarism is disclosed in damning detail, stripping the famed author of The Uses of Enchantment of any justifiable claim to his esteemed reputation as a child psychologist, and throwing into doubt many of the basic details of the life the late Bettelheim had claimed to have lived. Pollak takes down Bettelheim, pins him to the mat, and pursues him to the end, in a fascinating work that stretches the boundaries of biography.

I remember reading long ago, when I still had a subscription to Skeptical Inquirer, and article by Martin Gardner called “The Brutality of Dr. Bettelheim.” It used to be online, but has disappeared.
century
March 1st, 2011
14:33:19

Sharon said,
“When I asked about this on her blog my comment was deleted.”

Kev and/or Sullivan do this as well! Ho hum!
Kev
March 1st, 2011
18:56:01

We do? We delete comments that disagree with us? Like you? Or JB Handley? Or AWOL?
Sullivan
March 1st, 2011
18:58:17

“Yikes! Information about his work in the last couple of decades have not been very flattering:”

I’m sure that Interverbal brought his name up specifically because everyone would know him (Bettleheim) as a poor example of a researcher. But, Bettleheim would meet the criteria set out to support Ms. McCarthy:

““Not because she is right or wrong but because she is one of the only public figures who is promoting autism regardless of the angle she is promoting. Any promotion by public figures needs to be embraced while still maintaining you as a group or an individual may hold a vastly different view point”

In other words—clearly the criteria above are not valid. We don’t need to back everyone who is a public figure in autism.
AWOL
March 1st, 2011
20:52:03

“We do? We delete comments that disagree with us? Like you? Or JB Handley? Or AWOL?”

And I was told it was a back log with the filter ..stupid me..
Sullivan
March 1st, 2011
21:02:37

AWOL,

I have deleted comments of yours that were repeats. There were also a couple that were particularly nasty towards another participant here.
sharon
March 1st, 2011
23:09:07

@century, to suggest the authors of this blog delete viewpoints different to their own is a blatant falsehood. There are times when I am genuinely surprised by the length of rope they give some commenters despite the repetition, snideness and baiting.
This openess to discussion seems in complete contrast to those who seek to promote woo based therapies and anti vax views. I say this as someone who has had comments, delivered with all the respect I coud muster, deleted from several blogs. For no reason other than my comment challenged their embraced dogma. Yet I would think that if one was so enthralled with a particular point of view they would welcome questions as an oppurtunity to share their knowledge and experiences. “Ho Hum” indeed.
AWOL
March 1st, 2011
23:24:20

Pharma moral high ground nothing to beat it?
Interverbal
March 2nd, 2011
01:02:37

“I’m sure that Interverbal brought his name up specifically because everyone would know him (Bettleheim) as a poor example of a researcher. But, Bettleheim would meet the criteria set out to support Ms. McCarthy”

Precisely correct

“In other words—clearly the criteria above are not valid. We don’t need to back everyone who is a public figure in autism.”

Nah, let’s keep it and hold ‘em to it. The very famous Bill Gates is just spreading awareness about the broader questions of vaccines right?

Joking aside; maybe as a field autism has seen enough of psychoanalytic shenanigans, divas, famous authors, and pet detectives. Not to mention Elvis (dressing up and playing doctor) curing an autistic child with some good ol’ school Holding- Therapy. We have already tried the famous-twit-of-the-month approach. Maybe there has been enough anecdotes. Let’s see what the actual employment of science can do. And let’s not ignore the well designed science that already exists.
Sullivan
March 2nd, 2011
02:17:13

Interverbal,

I miss at least one of the divas…
Interverbal
March 2nd, 2011
04:30:14

Ironically, the reason she picked that name was to parody the autism “divas” of the time. I think this is a bit more obvious in her earliest posts. I find it extremely funny whenever someone(not so much nowadays) is outraged by her name “Just who does she think she is, calling herself that!”. The point goes sailing over their heads.
Sullivan
March 2nd, 2011
04:50:22

Yeah, she was so good at it that many didn’t recognize that it was a persona she adopted. Many also didn’t recognize that the outrage was real, driven by a very deep concern for people.
McD
March 3rd, 2011
04:17:01

A while back, AWOL linked to what s/he thought was the study to trounce all others. I tried 3 times to comment on it, but they went into the ether apparently. I will have one last go, for anyone who thinks conclusions can be drawn from what AoA present as ‘data are in’, and implying that it is one of a series of studies with similar results. This is an outright lie.

AWOL Said: “I noticed on AOA ,a superb study just received as below..if you could lower yorself to look at it we would all appreciate your advice on the study ,not that we will take your advice but it gives us an idea into the pharma logic..(giving credit you have one) “

AWOL’s AoA Link:
http://www.ageofautism.com/201.....rbing-.htm

AoA are engaging in blatant cherry-picking with the paper at the end of AWOL’s link.

Check out this follow-up review of a long series of studies from Prof Aaby (3 years after the paper AoA are lauding):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17207144

From the results: “Studies with long interval between visits had very high mortality rates among unvaccinated children, low mortality rate ratios for vaccinated compared with unvaccinated children, and strongly beneficial estimates of DTP.”

In other words, AoA/AWOL’s study was only over a period of six months. Long enough to capture side-effects from DTP (remember, no one claims vaccines are risk-free), but too short to give an accurate idea of long-term benefits.

Cherry-picking just what they want to use to paint a dishonest picture of vaccine safety is disgusting. If their willful ignorance only affected their own families it wouldn’t be so bad. But they are playing Russian roulette with everybody’s kids
McD
March 3rd, 2011
04:27:33

awww man. Just had my fourth attempt at replying to an AWOL post way up the page. They are just disappearing into the ether. But other posts on other topics are getting through OK. AWOL’s link should be read in conjunction with this one by the same lead author:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17207144
McD
March 3rd, 2011
04:29:37

That one seems to have made it.

From the results of the Aaby review I linked to: “Studies with long interval between visits had very high mortality rates among unvaccinated children, low mortality rate ratios for vaccinated compared with unvaccinated children, and strongly beneficial estimates of DTP.”

In other words, AoA/AWOL’s study was only over a period of six months. Long enough to capture side-effects from DTP (remember, no one claims vaccines are risk-free), but too short to give an accurate idea of long-term benefits.
century
March 3rd, 2011
11:36:03

Sharon said,
“@century, to suggest the authors of this blog delete viewpoints different to their own is a blatant falsehood”

I was not suggesting – I was stating!
sharon
March 3rd, 2011
11:42:11

@century, meh!
Fred
February 5th, 2012
19:49:17

The problem with Jenny McCarthy is she jumped on the my son has autism hay ride and the media didn’t do their homework. Had they investigated, which good journalists do, they would’ve seen her story had huge gaps. For instance, her son radically improved after given seizure medications. As many doctors believe, this is more consistent with the diagnosis of landau kleffner syndrome, a syndrome easily misdiagnosed,even by some experts, as autism. It would look better for Jenny to come out and deal with the seizures being the real reason her son regressed and exhibited autistic like behaviors that led to diagnosis. Unfortunately, she was picked up by media and others who have made a lot of money off her son’s misdiagnosis and they don’t want to lose that money now. There are books. Endorsements. Connections. Ties. Her name is on the my child has autism payroll and it’s making people in some places money. They don’t care if her son really has autism. Yet, at same time, these same people will attack BIG PHARM saying all they care about is making money. Well this appears to be the pot calling the kettle black. Jenny should be a spokesperson for Landau Kleffner, not autism. Her son obviously has issues and hopefully continues to progress, but her chronic misrepresentation of autism has rightfully angered many people. It’s equally disturbing that the website Age of Autism has a relationship with her that blinds them to the fact her son was never autistic.