AAP asks Delta Air Lines to reconsider NVIC ads

5 Nov

The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is an organization which has been highly critical of vaccines. They have helped to keep the “vaccine induced autism epidemic” alive. They have not only supported, but awarded Andrew Wakefield, the doctor whose misconduct in his research lost him his license to practise medicine. With no sense of irony, NVIC presented Mr. Wakefield with the “Humanitarian Award” for “his compassion, brave spirit and uncompromising commitment to improving the health of children and the biological integrity of future generations.” One board member for NVIC wrote John Stossel with her opinion: “Vaccines are a holocaust of poison on our children’s brains and immune systems.”

Recently, NVIC has placed advertisements in the in-flight entertainment for Delta Air Lines for the holiday season. By NVIC standards, their ad is rather mild. The vaccine fear angle is not prominent, with the focus more on downplaying the need for the flu vaccine.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has sent a letter to the CEO of Delta asking them to reconsider the decision to accept the NVIC advertisement:

November 4, 2011

Richard Anderson
Chief Executive Officer
Delta Air Lines

Dear Mr. Anderson,

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) objects to the paid advertisement/public service message from the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) being shown throughout the month of November on Delta’s in-flight programming. The ad urges viewers to become informed about influenza and how to stay well during the flu season without resorting to the influenza vaccine.

While hand washing and covering sneezes are parts of a larger strategy to prevent the spread of influenza, influenza vaccine continues to be the best way to protect against the disease. It is especially important in enclosed settings where disease droplets can easily spread to passengers sitting in close quarters, especially infants and children and those with special health care needs.

The AAP and many other child health organizations have worked hard to protect children and their families from unfounded and unscientific misinformation regarding vaccine safety. The influenza vaccine is safe and effective.

By providing advertising space to an organization like the NVIC, which opposes the nation’s recommended childhood immunization schedule and promotes the unscientific practice of delaying or skipping vaccines altogether, you are putting the lives of children at risk, leaving them unprotected from vaccine-preventable diseases. Diseases like influenza can have serious consequences. From September 2010 to August 2011, 115 children died from influenza disease, most of whom were unvaccinated.

The AAP’s 60,000 member pediatricians urge you to remove these harmful messages, which fail to inform the public about the safety and efficacy of influenza vaccine. Please do your part to help reassure parents that vaccinating their children is the best way to protect them from influenza disease, particularly during this busy travel season.

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65 Responses to “AAP asks Delta Air Lines to reconsider NVIC ads”

  1. Moderation November 6, 2011 at 09:12 #

    I appreciate the AAP aggressively lobbying Delta to remove the NVIC ad, however the AAP has it’s own section on complementary and integrative medicine and the current chairman of that section appeared at a notorious conference on vaccine “safety” in the caribbean with Andrew Wakefield and the head of the NVIC, Barbara Loe Fisher. The AAP may want to clean up it’s own backyard … so it can deliver a consistent message to the public, free of hipocrisy.

  2. Lexie November 6, 2011 at 16:19 #

    If you want to talk about ‘fear angles’, you need only listen to the pro-vaccine side of the debate. I’ve never heard so many horror stories in my life. I had a family member with polio and my cousins had all their childhood diseases. The first person lived up to his early 80s and led a normal life. My cousins are alive and very well; better than I ever was when my mother took me to doctors religiously. The medical community’s scare tactics mean squat to me. I look at the general populace and talk to others who both vaccinate and don’t vaccinate. I’ll take anecdotal evidence over flawed, biased studies any day. To all those who believe in the koolaid of the pharmaceutical companies, where are these studies proving they’re so safe and effective coming from? Who’s funding these studies? If I was selling a product and I told you I performed studies which proved my product was safe and effective, why would you believe me when I’m the one who stands to profit from you believing that? Why would you not demand studies from unbiased sources? Come on. Think.

    • Sullivan November 6, 2011 at 19:59 #

      ” I’ll take anecdotal evidence over flawed, biased studies any day. ”

      No one is asking you to do this. How about taking good studies, real data over anecdotal evidence?

  3. Anna Ceberio November 6, 2011 at 16:46 #

    The sad thing is that the AAP is refusing to acknowledge their guilt on the current disaster their practices regarding vaccines are causing to our children. My daughter became vaccine-injured when her very ignorant pediatrician gave her 4 vaccines while she had RSV. But of course, he could quote Paul Proffit (you know, you can give a child 10,000 vaccines at the same time…). So, pediatricians are guilty as charge about their only interest being money. And the AAP is the leader of them all…

    • Sullivan November 6, 2011 at 19:58 #

      Anna Ceberio,

      “But of course, he could quote Paul Proffit (you know, you can give a child 10,000 vaccines at the same time…).”

      Are you aware of the fact that you are misquoting and misrepresenting what he wrote?

      Here’s what he wrote:

      Studies on the diversity of antigen receptors indicate that the immune system has the capacity to respond to extremely large numbers of antigens. Current data suggest that the theoretical capacity determined by diversity of antibody variable gene regions would allow for as many as 109 to 1011 different antibody specificities.38 But this prediction is limited by the number of circulating B cells and the likely redundancy of antibodies generated by an individual.

      A more practical way to determine the diversity of the immune response would be to estimate the number of vaccines to which a child could respond at one time. If we assume that 1) approximately 10 ng/mL of antibody is likely to be an effective concentration of antibody per epitope (an immunologically distinct region of a protein or polysaccharide),39 2) generation of 10 ng/mL requires approximately 103 B-cells per mL,39 3) a single B-cell clone takes about 1 week to reach the 103 progeny B-cells required to secrete 10 ng/mL of antibody39 (therefore, vaccine-epitope-specific immune responses found about 1 week after immunization can be generated initially from a single B-cell clone per mL), 4) each vaccine contains approximately 100 antigens and 10 epitopes per antigen (ie, 103 epitopes), and 5) approximately 107 B cells are present per mL of circulating blood,39 then each infant would have the theoretical capacity to respond to about 10 000 vaccines at any one time (obtained by dividing 107 B cells per mL by 103 epitopes per vaccine).

      Would you be so kind as to point out what in the above estimation is wrong. Was it the assumptions? The math? Could you explain if you knew that he wrote about the ” theoretical capacity to respond to about 10 000 vaccines at any one time “?

      I’ve never seen anyone who uses the “Paul Offit, 10,000 vaccines” misquote actually respond to the real quote.

      • Sullivan November 19, 2011 at 00:14 #

        Anna Ceberio,

        I assume you have no response to what Dr. Offit actually said. The question then is whether you will continue to misquote him. Sadly, I expect the answer is yes. If you didn’t know before, now you do. It is dishonest.

  4. Patricia Thrush November 6, 2011 at 16:57 #

    My daughter has high functioning autism, she is six. I also have a son who is fifteen months old. I have always beleived in vaccine safety until I read the ingredience and found, aluminum, mercury (thermisrol) and fermaldihide and further found out the indgredience of vaccines are not tested for tolerence. It is blatantly irresponsible to keep making the same type of vaccination that contains harmful chemicals and to ignore parents who see thier child on a daily basis and can tell you the day what happpened to their baby. I belive a safer vaccine with less chemicals could be made. I don’t see why to ease the fears of a nation of parents you woudn’t make a more natural vaccine anyway.

  5. Brenda November 6, 2011 at 17:17 #

    Delta is free to accept any paid advertising it wants. Remember the constitution? Beyond that, it’s about time someone started speaking out against the pharmaceutical conspiracy to make us all believe we need to be vaccinated or we will die. Of all the seven deadly sins, greed is the worst. It turns nice people into seething, hissing liars.

    • Sullivan November 6, 2011 at 19:41 #

      “Delta is free to accept any paid advertising it wants. ”

      Delta is also free to decline any advertising it wants to decline. Correct?

      “Remember the constitution? ”

      Yes. It protects freedom of speech. Are you writing this in support of the AAP’s excercising its freedom of speech? Since the AAP is not infringing on NVIC’s rights, and, in fact, they are asking Delta to consider using their constitutional rights, what is the problem?

      (no, this isn’t directred at you) More than greed turns people into liars. I’ve learned that the hard way watching people promote fear of vaccines.

  6. Chris November 6, 2011 at 18:59 #

    I see none of are convinced with actual data. So I’d like to direct you to this LBRB article.

  7. stanley seigler November 6, 2011 at 20:51 #

    [sullivan say] How about taking good studies, real data over anecdotal evidence?

    anecdotal evidence (aka observable science) presents some doubts…should not be dismissed…

    stanley seigler

  8. Andy November 6, 2011 at 22:31 #

    This is the United States of America. Censorship is not the answer.
    Our First Amendment does not give veto power to the AAP>

  9. Lexie November 6, 2011 at 22:48 #

    Show me the ‘good studies’ with ‘real data’ that I should be looking at. For that matter, show me a real reason to fear the diseases vaccines are supposed to be preventing.

  10. Liz Ditz November 6, 2011 at 23:09 #

    Claim from “Moderation”

    …the AAP has it’s own section on complementary and integrative medicine and the current chairman of that section appeared at a notorious conference on vaccine “safety” in the caribbean with Andrew Wakefield and the head of the NVIC, Barbara Loe Fisher.

    Yes, AAP has a section on Complimentary and integrative medicine, SOCIM

    http://www.aap.org/sections/chim/default.cfm

    Larry Rosen, MD, FAAP is the Chair of the Executive Committee for SOCIM And yes, he was on thelist of speakers from that “notorious conference”. Pretty disappointing.

    Title of his talk: Front lines: a pediatrician’s perspective on immunization informed consent.

    Disappointing that he showed up (if he did, need to validate). But there’s nothing on the SOCIM website that is anti-vaccine — in fact, there’s nothing on vaccines at all.

    AAP have recently launched a new website for parents

    http://www.healthychildren.org/

    Here’s the page on immunizations

    http://www.healthychildren.org/english/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/default.aspx

    Robust support for immunization safety and efficacy. So I don’t think the AAP can be accused of hypocrisy in this instance.

    But I do think somebody conducting a pointed interview with Dr. Rosen might be appropriate.

  11. Chris November 6, 2011 at 23:09 #

    Andy, so you want to censor the AAP’s request? Do you think it is a person’s constitutional right to yell fire in a theater?

    Lexie, seriously? Do tell us how the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria, how the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella, how the IPV is worse than polio, how the Hib is worse than Haemophilus influenzae type b and how the annual influenza vaccine is worse than real flu. Just post the journal, title, date and authors, or link to real studies just like the following:

    Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States

    Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan:

    According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
    Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.

    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.
    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.
    Bellini WJ, Rota JS, Lowe LE, Katz RS, Dyken PR, Zaki SR, Shieh WJ, Rota PA.
    Respiratory and Enteric Viruses Branch, National Center for Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia 30333, USA.

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S210-5.
    Measles hospitalizations, United States, 1985-2002.
    Lee B, Ying M, Papania MJ, Stevenson J, Seward JF, Hutchins SS.
    Epidemiology Program Office, and National Immunization Program, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia 30333, USA.

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
    Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.
    Gindler J, Tinker S, Markowitz L, Atkinson W, Dales L, Papania MJ.
    National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

    Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
    Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.
    Glanz JM, McClure DL, Magid DJ, Daley MF, France EK, Salmon DA, Hambidge SJ.

    Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
    Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.
    Omer SB, Enger KS, Moulton LH, Halsey NA, Stokley S, Salmon DA.

    JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
    Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.
    Feikin DR, Lezotte DC, Hamman RF, Salmon DA, Chen RT, Hoffman RE.

    Also, why is it that on NVIC’s pertussis/whooping cough page these studies (and others) are missing:

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.

    Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
    Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.
    Vennemann MM, Höffgen M, Bajanowski T, Hense HW, Mitchell EA.

    Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
    Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.
    Watanabe M, Nagai M.

  12. Andrew November 6, 2011 at 23:10 #

    “Delta is free to accept any paid advertising it wants. Remember the constitution?”

    I am free to complain about the deceitful ads that Delta is paid to show – remember the Constitution?

    “Of all the seven deadly sins, greed is the worst. It turns nice people into seething, hissing liars.”

    Now that’s not nice – Delta may be taking money to spread lies, but I think they were deceived by others; I don’t think Delta is deliberately trying to spread falsehoods.

  13. Science Mom November 7, 2011 at 02:50 #

    I think some people need to learn what the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution actually is and what it isn’t. It doesn’t protect freedom of speech for adverts people.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 04:26 #

      I think some people need to learn what the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution actually is and what it isn’t. It doesn’t protect freedom of speech for adverts people.

      The same people might be reminded that freedom of speech *does* protect the AAP’s right to ask Delta to reconsider the decision to accept those ads.

  14. geolith November 7, 2011 at 03:30 #

    Anecdotal “evidence” is the ultimate in flawed, biased evidence, starting with the fact that the dead don’t tell good anecdotes. Add a few flavors of cognitive bias to the mix and the “facts” follow the conclusions. Which is not to say that there isn’t a place for observational studies…

  15. MikeMa November 7, 2011 at 03:33 #

    The first amendment may let you say what you like, free from government control and coercion but it does not legally protect you from blame or legal guilt if you lie or defame. The ad is not truthful in intent. Probably not worth (or subject to) legal action but not immune under any circumstances from criticism. The first amendment does not prevent criticism any more than it prevents most speech.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 04:45 #

      The heavy irony here is that it was the NVIC who made the real attempt to quash freedom of speech (as well as freedom of the press). This is, of course, when Barbara Loe Fisher of the NVIC attempted to sue Paul Offit for his “she lies” quote in Wired Magazine (quote here, discussion of suit here). The suit was dismissed. Other examples also point to vaccine skeptics being the ones attempting to quash free speech.

      NVIC has the right to freedom of speech. Delta does not have the responsibility to be used to carry their message. The AAP has the right to advise Delta.

  16. Chris November 7, 2011 at 05:58 #

    Don’t forget the attempt of a vaccine lawyer trying to shut down a blogger: Welcome to My Conspiracy.

    By the way, it did not work.

  17. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 18:41 #

    Welcome to America 2011 where the AAP calls eating healthy, hand washing, the suggestion to get a good amount of sleep and exercise “harmful messages.” Really, AAP? If I was one of your 60,000 member pediatricians, I would be embarrassed to be associated with you at all.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 19:06 #

      Desiree,

      did you read the letter above? I only ask because your comment makes it appear as though you missed this part:

      While hand washing and covering sneezes are parts of a larger strategy to prevent the spread of influenza, influenza vaccine continues to be the best way to protect against the disease.

  18. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 19:12 #

    “The AAP’s 60,000 member pediatricians urge you to remove these harmful messages,” Harmful messageS (plural.) Did they see the video? How is any of it harmful? It even lists the flu vaccine as an option. Apparently they are against OPTIONS and people making informed decisions. Why are they worried at the suggestion to be informed enough to want this harmless video pulled?

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 19:19 #

      Desiree,

      Perhaps this paragraph might help answer your question:

      By providing advertising space to an organization like the NVIC, which opposes the nation’s recommended childhood immunization schedule and promotes the unscientific practice of delaying or skipping vaccines altogether, you are putting the lives of children at risk, leaving them unprotected from vaccine-preventable diseases. Diseases like influenza can have serious consequences.

  19. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 19:30 #

    Then why don’t make a scare mongering flu kills advertisement and buy space from whoever they want? Play them back to back for all I care. Oh wait, that’s already everywhere: TV, magazines, grocery store pharmacy line, airport. Why are they so scared of THIS particular video? Because people might actually ask their doctor a question? Most people do not base life decisions on a two minute video they saw on a plane. If it encourages people to research before they act, isn’t that a good thing?

    It’s between Delta and NVIC what they want to do. If Delta offers advertisement space for purchase and NVIC pays for one and Delta accepts it, the AAP should butt out. Besides that, I fly all the time and I never watch the advertisements. For them to be ask Delta not to display a paid advertisement over THIS video about staying healthy is asinine.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 20:06 #

      “Then why don’t make a scare mongering flu kills advertisement and buy space from whoever they want?”

      Well, I don’t appreciate the fear mongering from the NVIC. Perhaps the AAP feels the same way.

      Informing people that influenza is a serious disease is not fear mongering. It’s factual. Informing people that vaccines work is not fear mongering, it is factual. One prime example of fear mongering I can give comes from NVIC. When they put out their video about the rotavirus vaccine, they noted that fragments of pig viruses were found . They referred to the virus fragment as being a “fatal” pig virus. What they did not point out is that the virus does not infect humans and is only fatal to infant pigs.

      I don’t feel that groups who consider vaccines a “holocaust of poison” to be mainstream. Just my view.

      “It’s between Delta and NVIC what they want to do.” “the AAP should butt out”

      Wow. So I don’t have the right to voice my opinion? The AAP doesn’t have the right to voice their opinion? Odd how the discussion started out with the claim that this letter was some form of censorship and is not turning to telling the AAP and people like me that we aren’t allowed to exercise free speech.

  20. Chris November 7, 2011 at 19:54 #

    Because it plays fast and loose with facts. Which is what NVIC always does. See my above post on its pertussis page. Also check out how NVIC is treated in the review of The Greater Good on the ScienceBasedMedicine blog.

  21. Chris November 7, 2011 at 19:56 #

    Oops, sorry, I posted my observations about NVIC’s pertussis page over there:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/vaccine_injury_awareness_week_joe_mercol.php#comment-5726456

  22. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 20:09 #

    The VIDEO IN QUESTION says wash your hands, eat well, get some sleep, exercise, and an option is the flu vaccine, ask your doctor about side effects. That sounds real “loose and fast.” ???? NVIC has a right to purchase advertisement space if they so choose and said company has a right to sell it to them. Delta could have said no off the get go.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 20:13 #

      The video in question presents the NVIC as a mainstream organization. They are not.

      “NVIC has a right to purchase advertisement space…”

      No. They have the right to attempt to purchase advertising space. Delta has no obligation to accept.

      “Delta could have said no off the get go.”

      And they still have the right to say no.

  23. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 20:21 #

    It’s already November. I’m assuming it was already purchased? This letter states they object to the paid advertisement to be shown in flight in the month of November. To me if it was already paid for and scheduled to show in November, Delta already said yes.

    You couldn’t pay me money to get the flu vaccine (and I’ve never had the flu and neither have my kids) but that is not the point of this conversation.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 20:25 #

      Have you seen the contract?

      “You couldn’t pay me money to get the flu vaccine”

      My guess the level of surprise amongst the readers of this conversation is low.

  24. Chris November 7, 2011 at 20:26 #

    The video directs people to NVIC to get information, as I have noted before, that information is not quite factual. Do you have a good explanation of why they left out some very crucial studies from their rather poorly formatted bibliography?

  25. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 20:44 #

    I have not seen the contract, have you? I haven’t flown on Delta this month either (Virgin America fan.)

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 20:54 #

      I have not seen the contract. I also did not say “To me if it was already paid for and scheduled to show in November, Delta already said yes.” Without knowledge of the contract, you can’t really make that claim.

  26. MikeMa November 7, 2011 at 20:47 #

    Color me unsurprised that Desiree doesn’t believe in the efficacy of flu shots. Another freeloader and potential child abuser. Way to go!

  27. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 20:54 #

    LMAO! I’m a giver too, I’ll give you my flu shot, you can have two.

  28. Chris November 7, 2011 at 21:05 #

    MAO! I’m a giver too, I’ll give you my flu shot, you can have two.

    More than likely you’ll just pass the flu to some small child or immunocompromised person. I am not sure we want what you have to give.

  29. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 21:30 #

    Don’t worry, I wont try to make out with you.

  30. Moderation November 7, 2011 at 21:39 #

    Liz Ditz,

    I suggest you look deeper into the SoCIM. They have in the past had links to websites with anti vaccine messages. I don’t believe the AAP has done a great job policing this particular section. While their is no outright anti-vaccine message, their is a lot of questionable alternative medicine recommendations, and I am concerned with the move from their previous chairperson, Dr. Kemper to Dr. Rosen. While Dr. Kemper appeared to be very open to alternative med therapies, Dr. Rosen has spoken at anti vaccine conferences and is associated with the anti-vaccine movie “The Greater Good”. I think you are right, though, the best way to clarify things is an interview with Dr. Rosen.

  31. Chris November 7, 2011 at 21:39 #

    Good grief, are you that clueless? But you will still breathe:

    People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses are spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might also get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth or nose.

  32. Chris November 7, 2011 at 21:40 #

    (above comment was about Desiree not knowing that flu spread without direct contact)

  33. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 21:52 #

    Duh. I’m being a smartass.

    If you are scared of breath, I’m sad that you are so sickly. Eat organic, more fruits and veggies, water, cut the dairy and non-organic meats, cut soda. CSAs will deliver organic fresh produce right to your door. Maybe a yoga class and some more sex. Get some Vit D too. If you are healthy, you are less likely to be scared of breath.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 23:30 #

      If you are scared of breath, I’m sad that you are so sickly….

      Yeah. Thanks. I’ll pass that on to the people in my life with poor immune systems due to advanced age. And to those with epilepsy, who could end up in the hospital with status epilepticus triggered by diseases. My relative who spent a long time on chemotherapy and could have been killed by the flu is now passed. But, hell, they could have just taken vitamin D and got more sex. That will solve their problems when their good friend Desiree passes them a nice dose of virus.

      In other words: your sarcasm falls flat to those faced with real concerns about infectious diseases.

  34. MikeMa November 7, 2011 at 22:01 #

    Chris,
    Save your breath. I strongly suspect Desiree is that clueless. And narcissistic.

  35. daedalus2u November 7, 2011 at 23:05 #

    I am pretty sure that Delta is not stupid enough to not have a clause in the contract allowing them to cancel it if it is fraudulent or if it advocates actions that are dangerous or harmful.

  36. Desiree November 7, 2011 at 23:40 #

    I am around people with chemo. You don’t go around them if you are sick, not even if you think you have the beginnings of a cold (which there is no vaccine for…yet.) That is common sense. I’ve NEVER had the flu. Neither have my kids. EVER. And they are in public school. So what happens when you get the flu vaccine and then still get the flu? (I know many many people in this category.) Are you in my child abuser club for breathing? Or because you chose an ineffective vaccine (and probably damaged your immune system in the process with the other garbage in the vaccine) then if YOU get someone sick, it’s ok? Living a healthy lifestyle in the first place is always a good idea.

    • Sullivan November 7, 2011 at 23:46 #

      “You don’t go around them if you are sick, not even if you think you have the beginnings of a cold (which there is no vaccine for…yet.) That is common sense. ”

      You do realize that people are usually contagious before they show symptoms. How do you avoid passing

      “I’ve NEVER had the flu. Neither have my kids. EVER.”

      So, every time you’ve had even what you consider a cold, it can’t have been the flu. And you know this because you’ve had yourself and your children tested every time? That would be the only way to be so sure. Somehow I doubt you’ve paid the money for that.

      “Living a healthy lifestyle in the first place is always a good idea.”

      Yep. And my definition of a “healthy lifestyle” includes getting vaccinated.

  37. Desiree November 8, 2011 at 00:07 #

    Then do it. I’m not telling you not to. If you feel like that protects you, then by all means.

    Why the hell would I go get tested if something was so mild it came off as a cold? Go out in public and go sit in a waiting room full of other people? When I can blow snot into a tissue in my house and drink some tea and be better in a day? If you are running to the doctor for that, you are more likely infecting other people than I am.

    • Sullivan November 8, 2011 at 00:09 #

      “If you feel like that protects you, then by all means.”

      Here’s the divide–it does offer protection. With work, the flu vaccine will offer more protection in the future.

      But, it isn’t a matter of “feel”. It’s a matter of data. When you get into the “vaccines damage immune systems” routine, you are working from belief. What you feel. That is not based on data.

    • Sullivan November 8, 2011 at 01:17 #

      “Why the hell would I go get tested if something was so mild it came off as a cold? ”

      To prove it wasn’t mild influenza. See, you don’t “know”. You infer. Yet you claim you know.

  38. Desiree November 8, 2011 at 00:49 #

    “With work” may be the key phrase there.

    I’ve looked up every single ingredient of every current vaccine on the material safety data sheets. Many of the ingredients have cautions in regard to health. These are items that are NOT meant to be injected into the human body. Look at Gardasil, 19,000 reactions and at least 68 deaths. It only “covers” 4 types of HPV and there are 30+ cancer causing strains. Beyond that, a simple pap smear can detect abnormal cells. Why the push? Especially for children as young as NINE?

    This debate will go round and round. You get them. I won’t. I have healthy kids, never been on antibiotics, no ear infections, nothing besides mild colds, ever. Whatever we are doing is working.

    • Sullivan November 8, 2011 at 01:12 #

      “Look at Gardasil, 19,000 reactions and at least 68 deaths. ”

      Confirmed? Or are you just quoting VAERS reports. If so, did you miss the disclaimer? Better yet, here is the disclaimer, which a responsible person would provide whenever making the claims you just did:

      A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

      “Whatever we are doing is working.”

      Part of what you are doing is taking advantage of families like mine. Families who vaccinate. This drastically reduces your family’s exposure to infectious diseases. There are small risks to taking vaccines. We are taking those risks. You are benefiting from our actions.

  39. Chris November 8, 2011 at 01:17 #

    MikeMa:

    I strongly suspect Desiree is that clueless. And narcissistic.

    Well, she is certainly proving your point.

  40. Desiree November 8, 2011 at 01:29 #

    The CDC hpv safety page which if anything, is probably under reported.

    What you put into your body is 100% on you. I am not benefiting anything from you. I am benefiting from over a decade of research on vaccine safety and knowledge enough to know when to just say no.

    Time will tell if we are trading in things like chickenpox and flu for say, cancer and other serious problems. Drugs get recalled all the time. We should revisit this in twenty years and see how healthy we are.

    • Sullivan November 8, 2011 at 01:45 #

      Are you referring to this page?

      Which discusses, for example, the deaths reported to VAERS like this:

      Fifty six deaths in the U.S. have been reported to VAERS as of September 30, 2010. Each of these deaths has been reviewed and there was not a common pattern to the deaths that would suggest they were caused by the vaccine. In cases where there was an autopsy, death certificate, or medical records, the cause of death was explained by factors other than the vaccine. Some reported causes of death received to date include illicit drug use, diabetes, viral illness, and heart failure.

      If this is the site you are relying upon, you (a) have the number of deaths wrong and (much more importantly) (b) you are presenting only the part of the information which supports your argument.

      “What you put into your body is 100% on you.”

      Again, here is one big disconnect. It isn’t. When I can help to protect others, as with vaccination, then there is something beyond me which factors into the equation.

      “I am benefiting from over a decade of research on vaccine safety and knowledge enough to know when to just say no.”

      I would not say you are benefiting. And I have no idea (OK, that’s a lie, I have a pretty good idea) what you consider “vaccine safety research”.

      When you say you know “when to just say no”, this would appear to be the time. Or, until an epidemic of something occurs which will then make you re-asses the risk/benefit ratio.

  41. Chris November 8, 2011 at 01:51 #

    Desiree:

    I am benefiting from over a decade of research on vaccine safety and knowledge enough to know when to just say no.

    Where? What university, and are you going for an undergraduate or graduate degree? Or is it the University of Google?

    Because you have made several errors, one of them being that just eating well, exercise, etc will protect you from flu. It seems that you don’t know much about immune systems, and that it needs to be finely balanced.

    Many of the people who died from H1N1 and in the 1918 influenza pandemic were young healthy people. The problem is that their immune system over reacted, produced to much “protective” mucus, which caused the pneumonia that killed them. You might want to read what someone who actually does virology says: Immunopathology: Too much of a good thing.

    You said:

    Time will tell if we are trading in things like chickenpox and flu for say, cancer and other serious problems.

    Citation required. And when we say citation we mean journal, title, date and author, not some website or news story.

    You have to prove you actually know what you are talking about, until then I would read (and listen to) Dr. Racaniello. He is the author of the linked article above, a professor of virology at Columbia University, co-host of three podcasts and he even has an online virology class that you can download.

  42. sharon November 8, 2011 at 04:25 #

    @ Desiree, please tell me your’e not awaiting a package with a lollipop in it?

  43. Anne November 10, 2011 at 12:10 #

    Followup re AAP and Delta:

    Along with apparently a LOT of other people, I sent a complaint to Delta’s customer service, and earlier this week they responded. Receiving so many complaints about the ad prompted Delta to have their medical office review it. Besides deciding to pull the ad after review because it contradicts standard medical practice (vaccine is the best preventative for flu, not washing your hands in the onboard lavatory), they are changing the process of reviewing new ads for appropriate medical content.

  44. MikeMa November 10, 2011 at 15:13 #

    Anne,
    Excellent news. Thanks. And good for Delta.

  45. McD November 12, 2011 at 07:48 #

    Desiree, if you want to see eyewitness evidence of the impact of the flu vaccine on a developing brain, I have previously posted my son’s story here: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/02/sloppy-science-a-perfect-example-of-how-the-anti-vaccine-crowd-will-listen-to-anything/#comment-155070

    This should demonstrate the value of ‘anecdotal evidence’ and the importance of the direct observations of mothers in gathering evidence of the environmental hazards faced by their children.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

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    [...] The American Academy of Pediatrics asks Delta to reconsider these ads. By providing advertising space to an organization like the NVIC, which opposes the nation’s [...]

  2. Anti-vaccine grande dame Barbara Loe Fisher cries “intimidation” « iluvimunisasi -"Love Them, Protect Them, Immunize Them" - December 20, 2011

    [...] it learned what Delta was doing through its content provider In-Flight Media Associates wrote a letter of protest complaining to Delta Airlines about the ads: November 4, 2011 Richard Anderson Chief Executive [...]

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