MMS, the apologists step in

9 Jun

MMS, or “Miracle Mineral Solution”, was presented at the AutismOne conference this year as the latest “cure” for autism. The idea (giving bleach to disabled children to rid them of non-existent parasites) is so bad that many stood up to decry the idea. A change.org petition was even created, No bleach enemas to “cure” autism in children!, which currently has over 1,300 signatures.

The idea is so obviously bad that my personal feeling was that AutismOne had failed to screen the talk before accepting it. I realize that after this long watching the autism/biomed world that sounds incredibly naive, but that was the truth.

I may be naive, but a long while back I gave up on reading the Age of Autism blog (AoA) regularly. After a long time hoping that there would be some trend away from the unscientific, damaging messages they continually put out I had to call it quits. But I still have email and people send me links. And sometimes one just has to follow the links. Like when I heard that AoA was defending MMS. I’m not naive enough to have hoped for public statement or an apology from AutismOne about promoting this. More like a quiet abandonment of an obviously bad idea. Like when people slowly moved away from a gentleman who would, for a mere few thousand dollars, review some video of your kid and tell you he/she was vaccine damaged (promoted by and a former advertiser on AoA). But this time the Age of Autism isn’t quietly accepting the facts. In the ironically titled “Autism One: Is There a Doctor in the House?” AoA defends MMS.

The arguments are actually fairly standard. Such as one can’t criticize MMS if one hasn’t been to the talk. (funny from a blog who recently bashed IMFAR without attending).

Here is another of the the standard defenses. Rather than discuss the issues head-on, build a straw-man:

It struck me as really odd that something most people at the conference didn’t even know much about had already been completely scrutinized by people who seem loathe the mere idea of medically treating a child with Autism (with anything but pharmaceuticals, apparently). It seemed obsessive and premature, to say the least, and it was eerily reminiscent of what happened with other interventions in the past.

Yes, it isn’t about safety of disabled children. It isn’t about the fact that the idea of using bleach (a bad idea on its own) to rid the body of parasites (which are not shown to be present in the children) in order to rid them of autism (which is not caused by parasites) is a bad idea.

Yes, “obsessive and premature”. Like those bloggers who wrote about chelation before the death of Tariq Nadama, the autistic child who was killed by IV chelation.

How is it premature, exactly, to look at a protocol (keep upping the dose until the kid starts to vomit, then back off) and say, “You know, this isn’t such a good idea”?

How ironic is it to defend a “therapy” which has no data showing it works, no plausible biological mechanism by claiming that others are “premature”?

Shall we go the standard arguments?

1) By Age of Autism standards anyone can be a lay expert by attending conferences and reading websites. Expert enough to act as a treating physician for one’s own children. But, you can’t be a lay expert (or, for example, a real expert on biology like Emily Willingham) if you disagree with a clearly bad practice like forcing disabled children to drink bleach.

2) Those who promote biomed are brave and use their real names. Those who don’t are “cowards” with fake names. Doubly ironic given that the blogger (who AoA won’t name) does use her real name and her copycats (an AoA spinoff) don’t. I challenge people to tell me how my writing has changed between when I was pseudonymous and now that I am publicly known. Over 1,000 signatures on Change.org….lot’s of real names there.

3) People are trying to “discourage” others from trying to “help their child” when the criticize certain biomed practices. In this case, people are trying to inform the public about a dangerous practice which has no good science and no real evidence to indicate it helps anyone.

4) “Anti-biomed folks always seem to forget that no one is claiming to have the cure for Autism.” Yes, they hide behind vague statements of “recovery” and “lost diagnoses” (as in the presentation made at AutismOne).

5) “Anyway, I tried not to let the blogger get to me, but admittedly, a number of times I found myself gritting my teeth thinking about how stupid she makes us sound.” Why are these discussions always about how smart people are? Anyone not smart enough to realize that being smart doesn’t mean one can’t make mistakes is, well, foolish.

6) Using authorities to claim that they must be right. In this case, she relies heavily on Martha Herbert, who spoke at AutismOne. “I also wondered if she considered Dr. Martha Herbert, MD a snake oil saleswoman.” I don’t recall seeing where Martha Herbert approved this therapy. I recall this news story, where Martha Herbert made it clear that she is not “an uncritical booster and fan of potentially dangerous unorthodox treatments”:

Herbert said she endorses the movement’s push to look at environmental toxins as a possible factor in autism and supports researching whether various treatments can improve the health of children with the disorder. Chelation, she wrote in an e-mail, “is a very special case” and should not be used “to praise or damn other approaches.”

In an earlier e-mail she wrote that she would sue the Tribune if she was portrayed as “an uncritical booster and fan of potentially dangerous unorthodox treatments.”

“I’m not defending chelation,” Herbert said in an interview. “I will sue you if you say that.”

Age of Autism writer Kim Stagliano has jumped to the defense of MMS as well with this comment:

When was the last time you saw an article on AofA deriding parents who put their kids onto Risperdal until they are obese or place them in resi care before trying a single biomed intervention? NEVER. It’s the difference between those of us with hope and aspirations and they who prefer to kick other parents to support their own choices. We should pity the parents who’ve given up using acceptance as an excuse for inaction.

It’s the same message that Jenny McCarthy put in her book and her AutismOne keynote speeches: “We are the ones with hope. Pity those who have given up” (or, as Jenny McCarthy more disgustingly put it, those who “like the attention” of having a disabled child and so do nothing).

The irony is just amazing in this comment. Ms. Stagliano moves directly from “We don’t deride others” into calling other parents pitiful. What is calling non-biomed parents “pitiful” and people who have “given up” and “using acceptance as an excuse for inaction” but derision?

I know I was naive. Hoping that with just a small amount of thought people would back away from something as clearly ill founded as bleach as a therapy. I had hope these people would do the right thing.

75 Responses to “MMS, the apologists step in”

  1. Liz Ditz (@lizditz) June 9, 2012 at 01:54 #

    The post you quoted also started out with,

    Sometime that night I saw a nasty article already on the Internet about Autism One. To start the conference, there was one slamming it and The Chicago Sun Times. Now to end it, there was one slamming it and the parents who attend.

    A blogger, who hadn’t attended the conference, but instead was regurgitating another blogger (who hadn’t attended the conference either), wrote an entire article about the inability to “bleach” the Autism out of a child. She was referring to MMS, a treatment being used for gut problems in some children that hadn’t even been presented yet. It was on schedule for the next morning.

    The author apparently was referring first to Seth Mnookin’s criticism of the fawning Sun-Times article over Mother’s Day, and second to Kristina Chew’s post which quoted this post at length.

    So I wrote a roundup post of all the coverage of MMS as a cure for autism: http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2012/06/miracle-mineral-solution-mms-as-an-autism-therapy-dangerous-quackery.html. You can go there to find named links to all the posts on this subject.

    I think most of the “isn’t MMS great for autism” discussions are occurring on closed or private discussion boards, because I couldn’t find much else, even with my googlefu turned up to 11.

    • Liz Ditz (@lizditz) June 9, 2012 at 01:57 #

      I didn’t proofread. Kristina Chew’s post quoted Orac’s May 25th post.

    • Fabi Macedo June 16, 2012 at 16:28 #

      I found a facts sheet about MMS that is very informative. I thought I would share: http://www.factsheetproject.org/MMSFactsSheet.pdf

      • Sullivan June 16, 2012 at 16:33 #

        They should put “fact” in scare-quotes.

        “Fact” Sheet.

        Seriously, someone uploads a PDF to a random website and that trumps logic and science?

        Find me a paper with some data. Show me biological plausibility that would stand up to the most basic scrutiny.

        Thing is, you can’t. The idea of mms is nonsense.

  2. Liz Ditz (@lizditz) June 9, 2012 at 02:14 #

    The Age of Autism writer penned

    It seemed obsessive and premature, to say the least,

    It’s another sign of how self-absorbed and self-referential that “autism is vaccine injury” group is. In the portion of the blogosphere that is concerned with skepticism* and science, Jim Humble’s “Miracle Mineral Word-that-starts-with-s” Scam had been big news since 2010, at least.

    MMS is bad, dangerous stuff; we’ve known that since 2010 at the latest. Given children (but especially, autistic kids) medically-unnecessary enemas even once is abusive, let alone every other day for weeks (which is what McDaniel’s protocol calls for).

    The difference that made the difference is that Humble (and McDaniel) are at the fringe for most things, but the endorsement of Autism One (“the world’s largest and most comprehensive annual autism conference”) meant that many more gullible parents might be tempted to try this abusive “treatment”.


    *Tim Farley defines skepticism as that space formed by the intersection of science education and consumer protection.

  3. K_Dad June 9, 2012 at 03:54 #

    I was naive too, Sullivan, in hoping that AoA or the Canary Party or a similar group would denounce this. I haven’t even brought up the “bleach cure” with my antivax wife because, as I suspect would be the case, she’d endorse it and that would be the final push off of Mount Despair for me…

    • Sullivan June 9, 2012 at 04:33 #

      K_Dad,

      First-your comment went to the spam queue at first. No idea why.

      The odd thing about MMS to me, at least as far as the support from AutismOne and others, was the lack of a vaccine-injury tie in. The Geiers, for example, have an idea that is as bad or worse than MMS. But they will always be welcome as they are strong proponents of the (failed) mercury notion.

  4. themommypsychologist June 9, 2012 at 04:34 #

    Ugh…I was furious when I first saw this. As a child psychologist who specializes in working with children with ASD, this type of quack science that preys on parents’ desperation is maddening. Oh, and I signed the petition immediately. Here’s my rant on the topic:

    http://www.themommypsychologist.com/2012/06/02/please-stop-please/

  5. Science Mom June 9, 2012 at 05:39 #

    Geez Liz, for someone who complained we don’t write enough, you didn’t notice we wrote about MMS. :D

    Sullivan, I think the anti-vaxxers have become so immersed in the vaccine-autism causation hypothesis that any “biomed” AutismOne endorses is for the “ritual purification” (as AutismMum would put it) of their “vaccine-damaged” children. I’m not remotely shocked that AoA would defend this violation of special needs children. Veiling the abuse of children with words like “recovery”, “cure” and “hope” is still abuse of children. They can call it whatever they like but they are really showing themselves to be bitter, lying barbarians they really are.

    • Liz Ditz (@lizditz) June 9, 2012 at 18:55 #

      Nope your post is in there. They are listed by date, so look under Thursday May 31.

      What actually surprises me is how little has been written about MMS and autism, given McDaniel’s claims.

      Evidently it was bigger in Spanish-speaking circles.

  6. lilady June 9, 2012 at 06:46 #

    What you have to understand about these parents who attend these seminars and who read and post at AoA is that they are exceptionally gullible and grasp at any and all “treatments” to effect “cures” for their children. Mind you, this is not a viable excuse for the torturous “treatments” that they put their kids through.

    Kent Heckenlively, who is a lawyer and a science teacher, actually wrote a piece for AoA detailing how he borrowed money from his in-laws for the trip to a foreign country to subject his daughter to intrathecal infusion of stem cells. The groupies at AoA heaped praise on this child abuser. Heckenlively also writes inspirational pieces about God-fearing, church-going family.

    These same groupies have a strange set of morals…they continue to lionize Andy Wakefield, in spite of his unethical treatment of the 12 defenseless children in his “study” who were subjected to painful multiple blood draws, invasive not-medically-indicated bowel cleansing preps, colonoscopies and lumbar punctures, to advance his scheme of bringing a single antigen measles shot to the marketplace. Let us not forget the culpability of the parents of these children who gave permission to Wakefield, with the hopes of compensation…based on falsification of their childrens’ medical and immunization histories.

    There is no treatment too bizarre and no treatment too invasive for this set of parents to “try” on their children. They truly are morally bankrupt.

    It is a sad state, when absolute strangers have more empathy for these defenseless
    children who are being experimented on, than their abusing parents.

    • Sullivan June 9, 2012 at 07:06 #

      There are people questioning this “therapy” at AoA. Too bad none of the supposed leaders is willing to step forward. This is where they could do some good.

      In a real science conference there is disagreement. Debate.

      • lilady June 9, 2012 at 08:02 #

        I saw only one post at AoA, from a person who is “pro biomedical” intervention and who has reservations about this particular “treatment”..

        I am pro-biomed and have seen a lot of things work, but am still leery of MMS and especially it’s creator, Jim Humble, to say the least. Anyone who works “miracle” in to the name, is a reverend in the Genesis II Church of Healing. You too can join for free ( … “If you wish, you will receive a pastor’s certificate and you will have the legal right to use ‘Reverend’ in front of your name. It will be legal for you to not pay income tax. “) I know he was not the one at Autism One, but any time spent on his websites related to MMS should give anyone pause. Autism One should be more careful. Failure to do so makes the whole bio-med community look bad.
        Seriously, this is something claimed to cure AIDS, hepatitis A,B and C, malaria, herpes, TB, “most cancers” too boot??? This stuff has snake oil written all over it.”

        As yet, no other poster has posted a follow-up to this comment…and we still do not know which biomedical interventions he rejects. Perhaps…he rejects MMS because there is no other medical condition that bleach is used for. Perhaps…he accepts dosing a child with an arsenal of antibiotics, anti-fungals and chelation because these medicines and chelation is prescribed for actual medical conditions. Getting past the “treatment” and hoped-for cure of autism, which is the purpose of biomedical treatments, such “treatments” are still abusive, IMO.

        I really don’t have a problem with parents who try to ameliorate some of the behavioral problems associated with a child’s disability, but therapies that have been shown to help a child such as ABA, are not intrusive and not abusive.

        As a child advocate and as a parent of two children, one of whom was profoundly multiply handicapped, I cannot fathom how anyone who claims to love their child(ren) could subject an innocent, totally defenseless youngster to these excruciatingly painful and invasive medical experiments. Parents are supposed to be giving, caring and protective of their children. Parents should provide a sense of security to their kids; these parents/abusers are deserving of our scorn.

  7. Roger Kulp June 9, 2012 at 15:08 #

    Source for the Jenny McCarthy comment,please.

    I didn’t think my opinion of that woman could sink any lower.

    “Ritual purification”.That’s good.:)

    • Sullivan June 9, 2012 at 18:33 #

      Roger Kulp,

      This video

      http://www.livestream.com/autismone3/video?clipId=pla_e38b7c60-b773-421f-9de0-8bf58cfad01b

      At about 6 minutes in she goes into her world view of “victim moms” vs “warrior moms”

      At about seven minutes in she talks about the moms who “fall into this victim role, and they like it”

      “They didn’t get attention in their lives and then this incredible door opens”

      “…and they’re loving it”

      When I hear people talking like Jenny McCarthy, I get suspicious. I know somone’s trying to sell me on something. If they had a good argument, they’d use facts.

      • Roger Kulp June 10, 2012 at 04:37 #

        OK thanks.
        I don’t read AoA,or like minded blogs,but does anybody at any of these blogs mention that her son wasn’t autistic in the first place?

  8. lilady June 9, 2012 at 15:43 #

    There is an “alternate” petition up now at change.org…in response to Emily Willingham’s petition to stop Kerri Rivera’s MMS treatment for autism:

    http://www.change.org/petitions/emily-willingham-stop-telling-people-that-mms-is-bleach-because-it-is-not

    • Sullivan June 9, 2012 at 16:14 #

      lilady,

      So far he has 7 signatures. At least two are from Jim Humble, the major proponent of MMS and the originator of the petition.

  9. Fabi Macedo June 9, 2012 at 16:05 #

    I’ve just come across MMS and I haven’t fully formed any real opinion about it just yet. But what frustrates me about your post (although you have every right to post it) is that you don’t really talk about the science or chemistry of MMS at all. You are simply calling it “bleach” when in reality, we put far more dangerous chemical compounds into our bodies for things like chemotherapy of cancer but we have assimilated this as acceptable. Yet, something that isn’t even what we use daily as the known “bleach”, which is sodium hypochlorite, is automatically bad. I agree that it deserves much discussion but its benefit can’t truly be known unless we have that discussion. MMS is chlorine dioxide, so even though they may be in the same family, one is much weaker and seems to create a very small percentage of possible harmful byproducts. Also, it seems like the industrial and primary use of chlorine dioxide is the purification of drinking water. So how can anything that is approved for that use, which will eventually find its way into the body, be as dangerous as you seem to be making it out? Again, there is no harm in talking about solutions. I would also be interested in you providing any links to anyone that had harm done to them from the ingestion of MMS under this Autism protocol. I couldn’t find anything on youtube that was negative. Seemed like everything was either neutral or very positive. So again, can we dig into the science and not just call things names that obviously have a bad connotation in our society for human ingestion? Also, the Autism One conference is not just Biomedical. It allows for all types of treatments to be presented and the attendees pick which presentations they want to attend. We went this year. So just because MMS was presented there did not give it any endorsement from the biomed community. Just FYI.

    • Sullivan June 9, 2012 at 16:48 #

      I do talk about the junk science behind MMS.

      As promoted, it creates bleach. It is promoted as a method to rid the body of parasites, with no testing before or after to demonstrate the need nor the efficacy of this parasite based approach. The bleach is given until kids are demonstrably sickened by it–the vomit or have other symptoms.

      The rest of their “science” is merely sciency-talk smoke screen. Until they can address the issues above, what’s the point if taking apart their pseudo-chemistry discussion? My PhD is in physics. Emily Willingham holds a PhD in biology. I’m very comfortable saying their “science” is irrelevant bunk. But, again, let them address the above.

      Right now the major promotor has a change.org claiming that MMS isn’t bleach. Nice bit of using partial information to create misdirection. MMS used as directed creates bleach. That sort of dishonesty is dangerous. And you want the smoke screen of discussing how their discussion of potentials is irrelevant?

    • Sullivan June 9, 2012 at 17:15 #

      ” I couldn’t find anything on youtube that was negative”

      Not good enough for me or my kid. Video testimonials?

      Did you find where proponents of MMS give their clients information on where to report adverse reactions? Are you aware that there are ways to report adverse reactions to alternative therapies?

      A while back Boyd Haley was selling a novel synthetic compound as a “supplement”. He specifically told his customers to contact him with any negative reactions. Why not encourage them to report them to the correct office at the FDA?

      When Jeff Bradstreet had a kid regress from adverse reactions to chelation it wasn’t reported. It only became known when the kid was one of the public cases in the autism omnibus proceeding.

      So, where are we supposed to look for information about negative effects of MMS? Aside from the online discussions where adverse reactions are applauded as herxheimer reactions?

    • lilady June 9, 2012 at 17:20 #

      @ Fabi Macedo: If you think that You Tube testimonials are a reliable resource, you are sadly mistaken. Here’s the press release about MMS from the FDA…it will also provide you with a chemistry lesson about the properties of MMS:

      http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm

      BTW, the European Union has also banned the sale of MMS, because of its corrosive properties, when ingested. You do know don’t you that enema liquids are absorbed through the permeable delicate tissues of the colon, don’t you?

      Where are citations that you should have provided from studies of the medical uses of MMS for treatment of any human diseases or disorders that have been published in peer reviewed medical journals? (You Tube videos and other “testimonials” from Kerri Rivera do NOT qualify as reliable sources)

      “Again, there is no harm in talking about solutions. I would also be interested in you providing any links to anyone that had harm done to them from the ingestion of MMS under this Autism protocol. I couldn’t find anything on youtube that was negative. Seemed like everything was either neutral or very positive. So again, can we dig into the science and not just call things names that obviously have a bad connotation in our society for human ingestion? ”

      You really didn’t look too intently for links that describe the harm of using MMS, did you?:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

      I just don’t quite understand how any parent contemplating a “biomedical” intervention for a child with autism, would not research such treatments and fail to realize that industrial chemicals are a harsh abusive treatment modality.

  10. Science Mom June 9, 2012 at 16:48 #

    Fabi, YouTube videos aren’t sources of valid information. If you want the chemistry and harm done by MMS, which is bleach then read here: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/bleaching-away-what-ails-you/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement and http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm Do you honestly believe that people who are bleaching their autistic children’s insides are going to announce that they caused illness? As far as defending AutismOne, they featured Kerri Rivera and her MMS snake-oil and they aren’t denouncing it. So they endorsed it and they are the ‘biomed’ community. Stop acting like a damn politician; it is what it is and it’s abuse of special needs children. It’s also not the only harmful “treatment” the “biomed community” endorses, there are many.

  11. Thomas June 9, 2012 at 18:43 #

    Kim condemned the mother who fed her child bleach a few years ago – but that was before AOA started getting advertising money for the product, I guess.

  12. Autismum June 9, 2012 at 19:02 #

    I addressed an open letter to Kerri Rivera and sent her a copy to ensure she saw it

    http://autismum.com/2012/05/30/re-uk-4-years-old-46-pounds/

    To my surprise she replied but unsurprisingly her response was pathetic.

    http://autismum.com/2012/06/06/mms-for-autism-a-reply/

    Though some apologist has been chimed in in my comments section and on TPGA too

    http://thinkingautismguide.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/dangerous-interventions-mms-and-autism.html?spref=fb

  13. Science Mom June 9, 2012 at 19:17 #

    Nope your post is in there. They are listed by date, so look under Thursday May 31.

    Aah, I see it. I appreciate the list to see what others are saying. Thanks.

  14. Fabi Macedo June 9, 2012 at 20:51 #

    So help me out here because I am interested in debating this whatever the outcome, even if it were to fully discredit MMS. We watched the documentary that was produced called “Understanding MMS”, and I do agree that Jim Humble, although a seemingly polite man, is a pretty horrible spokesperson for a possible treatment. He looks like a gold prospector and often can’t find the words he wants to say. But again, I was interested in the chemistry and the explanation as to how it works. I can’t speak for all parents but for my child, there is clearly a major issue in his gut and he rarely, if ever, has what would be thought of as a typical stool. I could go into a lot more gory detail but we know there is something very off about his gut. I wish I could be more scientific about it and I could give some other details but it just is what it is. We have another child that is exactly 2-yrs behind our 4 yr old and he is currently not on the spectrum and his stool couldn’t be more typical. From the research we have done, we do believe in the connection between the gut and the brain and from our own experiments with different gut related treatments, we have seen very interesting results with our child.

    Now Kerri Rivera is promoting an Autism protocol but let’s put that aside for a moment. The way I understand it, MMS had other non-medical uses (as you bring up in regards to “bleaching”) But regardless of what it is most often used for, it is just a compound of elements. Society comes up with the “uses” for these compounds but just because a newly created use is very different from what we have come to know something is used for, does that mean it can’t serve other purposes?

    So the real basis of the film talks about oxidation. From what is explained, the body has two states which are alkaline and acidic. Using simple terms, you want an alkaline state because that is the state that your body cells flourish in and in an acidic state, parasites, pathogens and bad stuff flourish which make trouble for the good body cells.

    So there are all kinds of oxidizers like ozone and peroxide, etc. Humble makes the point that these other oxidizers are much stronger than chlorine dioxide and they also don’t last in the body for as long a period of time. So they are really strong and their effects where out quickly. Then there is chlorine dioxide, which is pretty weak compared to these others, however it is a longer lasting as well so a little goes a long way.

    So the basic premise, as I understand it, is that the good cells of the body oxidize at a higher voltage than what the chlorine dioxide can generate so they are safe from destruction. However, this is not the case for pathogens, virus’s, etc that are bad. These things end up getting oxidized by the weaker chlorine dioxide and the body flushes the waste out that is created by that oxidation process.

    You mentioned vomiting and Humble also mentions rashes, gas and diarhea (can never spell that right). He claims this is the bodies process of pushing those oxidized waste products out and that does not seem off base from how I understand the body will try to get rid of toxins in other situations.

    So unrelating this to autism, do you think this has any merit for perhaps adults or people with known parasite or pathogen problems? I understand you do not subscribe to the autism premise that many of us parents do but what about for other applications? My point is if what I’ve relayed (probably poorly) correct, then where is the threat it would pose to someone with autism?

    I’m really interested if any of my understanding is wrong. I am not a chemist, neither do I have a PHD, but I have lived in the very competitive sales industry for 20 years and I am usually pretty good and seeing a con job when it presents itself. But I do want to be corrected if I have relayed an incorrect description of how oxidation works, etc. What is being left out. I don’t care about names like “bleach”. I care about the process the compound undergoes.

    Lastly, I am probably one of the most hardcore users of Youtube on the planet. There are positive and negative testimonials (whether true or not) for just about any topic you can think of. So when you can only find neutral or positive ones regarding something, that says a lot. I use the example of Ron Paul (whom I am a fan of). He has more youtube videos than just about any political figure you can find but I had to search a long while before I found anything that could even be remotely construed as negative when it came to something he said or did. There’s a reason for that. It’s because there just isn’t much negative out there. MMS has nowhere near the number of posts Paul does but there also just isn’t anything negative. And sometimes you just have to pray and go with your gut. (no pun intended) But again, I welcome your expertise to dismantle any component I’ve mentioned above because I want it dismantled if it isn’t true.

    Don’t get me started on the FDA. Shouldn’t we just call it the Federal Division of Monsanto?

    Thanks.

    • Chris June 9, 2012 at 22:04 #

      Your body’s pH (acid, alkaline) is finely balanced. You cannot make it one way or the other without causing serious harm to yourself.

      Also, parasites, viruses and other pathogens are all very different and require various treatments. You cannot get rid of parasites like chagas or malaria by consuming bleach.

      My point is if what I’ve relayed (probably poorly) correct, then where is the threat it would pose to someone with autism?

      Because consuming bleach can damage the layers of tissue it hits. And giving children enemas for no reason is intrusive even with plain water, and can also cause damage. Also enemas are the last thing one should do to children with sensory issues.

      Those sensory issues are why I chased a hospital technician away when an intern ordered an IV to put into my toddler when he had croup. It was a “just in case” order. Unfortunately things like that cause him to get upset, which makes the croup worse, so he would have had more difficulty breathing.

      The following is a two part interview with Jim Humble, Please listen to them:
      http://www.talkaboutstrange.co.uk/episode-68-jim-humble/ and
      and

      http://www.talkaboutstrange.co.uk/episode-81-jim-humble-ii/

      • Leo June 9, 2012 at 22:35 #

        Regarding what fabi wrote, is their claim that the chlorine dioxide has a lower oxidation level than the tissue cells not valid. If not then wouldn’t the tissues hold up fine since they require more oxidation to break them down than the chlorine dioxide can create? I also understood the enema treatments were not necessarily always needed or recommended for kids that have issues like you mention. Some kids are just doing oral or maybe some drops in their bath.

      • Chris June 9, 2012 at 23:31 #

        One of the protocols also involves giving the child an oral dose very two hours for 72 hours. Sure, sure, wake up your kid for three nights and see how well that goes over, even if the child is not autistic.

        That is the type of kid torture that kind of forces them to withdraw, not stim or do any of the behaviors that the has caused the parents disappointment in their child.

    • daedalus2u June 9, 2012 at 22:55 #

      I am a chemical engineer, and I specialized (sort of) in thermodynamcs, so things like redox potential and acid base equilibrium is something I understand. I haven’t seen the video, but from the descriptions of it, it is complete nonsense. The idea that alkaline is good and acid is bad is nonsense. Physiology uses both acids and bases, oxidation and reduction and a great many other reactions, all of which are mediated through enzymes so as to control the reactions. The control of reactions is the most important part of physiology. If there is no control, then physiology cannot function properly.

      Sodium chlorite is used as bleach, especially when chlorine dioxide is made from it. Chlorite has a standard potential of +1.67 volts, that makes it a stronger oxidizer than hypochlorite (HClO, +1.63), chlorine (Cl2, 1.36 volts), dichromate (Cr2O7, +1.33) and oxygen (O2, +1.229). Chlorine dioxide is somewhat lower than O2 (ClO2 (g), +1.19), but equilibrium redox potentials are not a good measure of how something interacts with physiology.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_%28data_page%29

      Physiology has enzymes that catalyze various reactions, and usually multiple reactions are linked so as to give a net positive driving force for the reaction to happen. There are enzymes that make use of higher oxidization state iron, Fe(IV) to oxidize substrates. Hydroxyl radical has a very high oxidation potential, +2.0.

      What is the physiology that MMS is supposed to “fix” and by what mechanism? Sodium chlorite is not a normal substrate than enzymes have evolved to work with. If sodium chlorite isn’t doing something specific, via a specific enzyme, then it is doing something indiscriminate at random. Doing something random in a highly structured and ordered system such as physiology can only wreck it.

      You may be able to read people from your “gut”, you can’t do science that way. No one can. Anyone who trusts their gut is not a scientist. Scientists need data, and then need to fit those facts into a schema using logic, theory and other facts. If someone can’t do that, then they are not a scientist.

      • Sullivan June 10, 2012 at 00:26 #

        Deadelus2u

        Here is part 1:
        http://Www.livestre.am/3vw8e

        I see I keep using “parasites” where she uses the more general “pathogens”

      • Sullivan June 10, 2012 at 00:52 #

        deadalus2u:

        “What is the physiology that MMS is supposed to “fix” and by what mechanism”

        By eliminating “pathogens”. Viruses. Bacteria. Heavy metals. Etc.

        She claims that mms ends up as neutral oxygen atoms and chloride, which combines with sodium to form table salt in the body.

        Good enough for someone with a fuzzy recollection of high school chemistry.

        Table salt does not remain a salt in the body, but instead as sodium and chorine ions. I don’t see oxygen atoms remaining neutral in the body. We use an atomic oxygen source in our lab for oxidizing fresh surfaces in vacuum. the purpose is to get a more reactive species than oxygen molecules (O2).

        But she throws out the sciency like language in areas like this while dodging the real questions of whether autism is caused by “pathogens” and whether her bleach does anything against the pathogens.

        The goal is to get discussions mired in confusing discussions of her pseudo science. That leaves the average reader stuck with the feeling that this is a controversy.

        This is no more of a science controversy than a freshman chemistry exam where the student had slept through class and got an “F”. Maybe she showed her work and had something akin to chemistry on the page. But in the end the answer is clearly wrong. No debate.

      • daedalus2u June 10, 2012 at 02:54 #

        Sullivan, actually it is likely that “real” parasites, aka gut worms, would help with autism by causing chronic increased NO from iNOS. Gut worms are quite benificial for some inflammatory gut disorders.

        I would not recommend that approach either..

        Bleach enemas might be causing a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction by killing normal gut bacteria. I left a comment to that effect on Emily’s blog. That idea could be tested by looking at the endotoxin content of fluid passed after bleach enemas as a function of bleach and stool concentration. An IRB might allow such a study in adults at sufficiently low bleach concentrations. Plain water might work too by lysing bacteria due to osmotic pressure. No legitimate IRB would allow it in children.

        Of course that is generating toxins rather than removing them. Bacteria that are passed intact have not released their endotoxin.

    • Autismum June 9, 2012 at 23:08 #

      This is an interesting read and gets behind the phoney science of MMS.

      http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/bleaching-away-what-ails-you/

      This is about the young man who got the awful stuff banned in the UK (There are plenty of useful links there too)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_Morgan#Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

      I would also recommend episode this excellent podcast on how to spot quackery for future reference

      [audio src="http://www.pusware.com/quackcast/quackcast12.mp3" /]

  15. lilady June 9, 2012 at 21:52 #

    @ Fabi Madedo: Your research skills on the internet about MMS are not too good. You missed the Wikipedia entry on MMS:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

    “Don’t get me started on the FDA. Shouldn’t we just call it the Federal Division of Monsanto?”

    You do know, don’t you that the FDA slam is a “buzz phrase” used by the Canary Party and notorious anti-vaccine websites? Before I waste any of my valuable time, providing a tutorial and information about parasitic and bacterial bowel infections, I would like you to explain what your “buzz phrase” means.

    • Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 02:04 #

      I’m not a fan of the FDA. I think it’s a government agency run by corporations. Didn’t Obama just just appoint one of Monsanto’s VP’s to head it up or at least head up a division? I can hardly keep up anymore. I am anti-vaccine but not anti all vaccines. I’m not sure what more to tell you. I’m not sure who the Canary’s are. I’m a Libertarian. Didn’t I mention I was a fan of Ron Paul? I thought you were going to tell me making a statement like that might flag me with the CIA. My husband and I probably already are. Gotta love this world.

      • Chris June 10, 2012 at 05:23 #

        What does a political stance have to do with doing things that harm children, and are counterproductive with kids who have sensory issues? Do you seriously think any one cares who you vote for if you force enemas on a child, wake them up every two hours for three nights or make them consume bleach?

        Do your political leanings mean that you must ignore science and the welfare of your child? Do you have it drilled into you that just because the FDA says something is wrong that it must be okay, without even thinking for yourself? Surely if you have a child with a developmental disorder you should know how hard it is to change a routine, or even make them do something unfamiliar with their body (like brushing something other than their front teeth).

        Why in the world would you think it is okay to feed your child caustic chemicals, give them enemas or wake them up every two hours?

        Do you think that Americans were a bit too harsh on the makers of Elixir Sulfanilamide? Or do you care that those who wanted to import thalidomide into the USA are behind the move to strip the FDA of power? Confused? Then read this book.

      • Shondolyn Gibson June 10, 2012 at 17:16 #

        Oh for the love of milk and lipstick please remove your tin foil hat and be realistic for a few moments. Who cares if you don’t like the FDA? if they are saying don’t put bleach in a child’s anus, it might not be a bad idea to listen.
        Also I am not a fan of Ron Paul…

  16. Science Mom June 9, 2012 at 23:54 #

    Sullivan, I have a link-heavy comment for Rafi in moderation or spam. Can you release it?

    • Sullivan June 10, 2012 at 01:17 #

      Science Mom,

      I found it in spam. And two from lilady.

      • Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 01:58 #

        Thanks for your responses guys. It’s been helpful. I’m doing some more research and I will be sure to post more if any new information comes to light.

  17. lilady June 10, 2012 at 03:44 #

    @ Fabi Macedo:

    ““Don’t get me started on the FDA. Shouldn’t we just call it the Federal Division of Monsanto?”

    and, your explanation for your bias against science and your political naivete…

    “I’m not a fan of the FDA. I think it’s a government agency run by corporations. Didn’t Obama just just appoint one of Monsanto’s VP’s to head it up or at least head up a division? I can hardly keep up anymore.” I

    You really are gullible, aren’t you. The mere mention of the FDA, Monsanto and President Obama is the tip-off about your supreme ignorance and lack of an inquiring mind…

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/organic.asp

    I take it that you are dead set against food safety and are not concerned about large multi-state food-borne bacterial illnesses, then?

    You’ve be proven wrong about the safety of MMS and proven dead wrong with the pap that was spoon-fed to you by conspiracists. How about really doing such research about another fallacy, that you hold dear to your heart. Grow up, do the research, learn about vaccines and the diseases they prevent and stop making a fool of yourself by posting your inanities on science websites.

  18. Scott Myers June 10, 2012 at 17:08 #

    As far as Martha Herbert not being an uncritical booster and fan of potentially dangerous unorthodox treatments, read her book and decide for yourself. She certainly supports acting on non-falsifiable premises and theories by providing treatments that lack empiric evidence of efficacy.

    • Sullivan June 10, 2012 at 17:14 #

      I listened to Martha Herbert speak for two hours of lectures. I do not consider her a quality reference.

  19. Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 17:19 #

    Chris, Lilady asked me about the “Canary Party” of which I am unfamiliar. I haven’t gotten to research it yet but it sounded like some sort of political affiliation with a group that has a specific belief structure most of you don’t agree with. That was why I responded the way I did. Just making conversation. Also, I never endorsed MMS and am not using it. I simply understood it differently than most of you and was interested in feedback. You guys are passionate about protecting children and this is commendable but don’t be so angry as to not be able to gave a fact based debate about any type of treatment. There will always be parents that do what they want regardless of the science or lack of science. But if we aren’t willing to discuss it in a civilized manner without shunning even the thought of its possibility then that’s just not very intelligent. Don’t assume every person that has questions about MMS and is not vehemently trying to talk it down at every turn is endorsing it. A lot of those people, I for one, are just trying to get more information. At the end of the day it is going to come down to the decision of the parent and I do believe in that. It may very well be a bad decision but as long as a decision is made from a place of trying to help, there isn’t anything evil going on. People and children all over the world get hurt or injured from the good intentioned choices of their parents. As long as those parents do their diligence in researching all sides of the decision, I won’t get all worked up over this because government does the exact same thing on a larger scale. And in my opinion, they don’t often make their decisions based on you and I. They make decisions based on the protection of business markets and the impact to the economy. Not always, but often. We can agree to disagree on this. I’m intelligent enough to know I didn’t have all the answers after seeing Kerri and Jim’s presentations and that was why I inquired with you guys and others. I’m also aware enough to pull the facts out that you all gave and disregard the vitriol of your parental choices. I respect your choices but they are none of my business just as mine are none of yours. Good luck with your families and God Bless. Again, you have all been helpful.

  20. Lara Lohne June 10, 2012 at 18:19 #

    I didn’t read anything about this so called treatment, but I know that putting bleach in your body is a bad idea just because, HELLO! IT’S BLEACH! It burns when it comes into contact with the skin, there are all kinds of warnings on it about how hazardous it is to staying healthy and these parents honestly believe this will cure their children’s autism? I want to cry for these sweet children who are forced to go through painful and dangerous ‘therapies’ simply because their parents are unable to accept the fact that their own genes might be responsible for their child’s condition and refused to accept that real therapy is going to be much more beneficial to their child, and far less damaging, then these biomed treatments. It seriously makes me wonder if they aren’t trying to find a way to ‘get rid of their challenging child’ under the guise of ‘treatment toward a cure’. I’m pretty sure if a parent force fed a neurotypical child bleach, or any other poison, they would be accused of child abuse. Why are these parents who do this to disabled children, who are less able to fight back and defend themselves not being prosecuted for reckless endangerment or something along those lines? Hearing things like this makes me sick. Even if I believed vaccines caused autism in my son, this just doesn’t make any sense to subject him to this as a treatment for it.

    • Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 19:12 #

      Lara, there’s more to this than just the word bleach. There are also many types of bleach. To use one word to describe them all is convenient but the cannotations that come along with it don’t necessarily all apply. However, I would agree with you if all I was looking at was the word “bleach”. My mind is not made up yet on this topic but I do see valid points on both sides. Chlorine dioxide is not the bleach you use in your home. So your experience with it would not be the same as with chlorine dioxide. Hydrogen peroxide is also in the bleach family. I bet you have a different connotation of that. You still may not ingest it but I’m just trying to relay the power of language.

      • Sullivan June 10, 2012 at 19:19 #

        Toxin is also an accurate word for this “therapy”. Ironic that.

        Chlorine dioxide is about 1/4 the toxicity of thimerosal ( the mercury based preservative formerly used in childhood vaccines). However, children are being given much more than 4 times the dose of this bleach. Multiple times a day. Over extended periods of time.

        It is beyond ironic that those who have relied upon the power of language to frighten people about vaccines are now ignoring their own position on toxins.

        Especially when this “therapy” is given to the level that children exhibit I’ll effects.

      • Lara Lohne June 10, 2012 at 19:43 #

        Peroxide burns the skin also, with prolonged contact. Either way, neither should be ingested.

        If you know anything about autism, you should know it is a neurologic condition that causes delays in certain normal developmental processes. Mostly communication, social interaction and receptive and expressive language. There can be other co-morbid symptoms also (sensory integration disorder, bowel problems, seizure disorders) but they are not part of the autism diagnosis. In essence it is developmental delay, not stasis and even if nothing was done a child with autism will progress.

        These biomed ‘treatments’ are counter intuitive to anyone who knows what autism is because the things they ‘claim’ autism is (mercury poisoning, vaccine damage from encephalitis, etc.) have significantly different symptoms then autism does. That being the case, anyone who can read and comprehend should be able to ascertain that the ‘treatments’ the anti-vax community support and adhere to will not have any effect on autism, because autism is not what they think it is.

        What it really does come down to is a core of people who are united in their beliefs because they just can’t accept that their child has a disability that could effect them for the rest of their life. However, with proper, scientifically supported therapies, a child can progress to a point where they lose their diagnosis. It isn’t MMS or chelation that is responsible for that, it is the dedication of the child’s parents and the therapists who have worked with the child who are to receive the credit. Occupational and speech therapy, not to mention swim/water therapy, music therapy, animal therapy and all these other things that have been proven to allow a child to improve and grow that is producing the real results. The biomed treatments are just really dangerous and I seriously doubt that any progress the child made was due to being subjected to these things. Again, autism is delay, not stasis and a child will progress even if nothing is done.

      • Chris June 10, 2012 at 19:52 #

        Yes, there is also the child torture bit. What kind of parent thinks it is okay to wake a child up every other hour for three nights in a row, or that it is okay to squirt stuff up their anus (unless it is a medically prescribed suppository, which does not require a tube)?

        You are also not supposed to drink hydrogen peroxide as it causes tissue damage, even at the 3% solution sold in drug stores. The same goes for putting it where there are mucus membranes like the butt, nor on open wounds. If you thought otherwise, perhaps you should take a refresher first aid course.

      • Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 20:02 #

        I think there are really two different conversations going on here. If you believe autism is simply a neurological disorder then you certainly wouldn’t want to do any type of therapies that involve physiological changes. If you believe it is a mixture of both physiological and neurological then it is worth discussing. My father had very advanced prostate cancer and was essentially written off by the medical community. He changed his diet drastically and underwent Max Gerson’s cancer therapy 3 years ago and within 10 months, he was cancer free. Whether you believe this is just luck or whatever, it doesn’t really matter. There is room in the world for all of us and we can make our own choices for ourselves and our family. But I would agree that if believed what you believe about autism, then this whole conversation is just silly. For my child, I believe he was normally developing and a mixture of vacccines and extremely heavy antibiotics for recurring ear infections created an envioronment that exploited a neurological weakness that is in his genetics. You can call me naive but he’s my kid and I suppose that is my business.

      • Chris June 10, 2012 at 20:23 #

        It is not a matter of “belief.” It is a matter of science, and some basic common sense.

        What in the world makes you think it is good for any child to make them consume bleach, suffer sleep deprivation from being awakened every two hours and to have stuff inserted into their anuses?

  21. Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 19:39 #

    So do you guys have any issue with chlorine dioxide’s use as a large scale and small scale drinking water purification additive? I understand it is also used in the cleansing of a lot of meat products that we are sold. I’m also interested in these processes. I know there was a big Facebook campiagn against McDonalds and the use of “bleach” on some of their meat products and it actually got them to stop using meat that had undergone this process. In fact, I remember sharing that viral article on my wall as I was initially outraged. Mainly by the word “bleach”. McDonald’s claimed they moved away from the use of meat that underwent this process because the public made such an outcry about it but they still claim there are no adverse affects from the process and that it is safe. So we are left either believing or not believing McDonalds or understand the process, although unappetizing, may not be that bad and may even serve a useful purpose. It also may not but I’m not here to push you either direction. Only to change perspective and see if that changes anything else. Again, a useful discussion. I don’t think any of us have given our kids MMS so to speak disparagingly of each other would seem counterproductive.

    • Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 19:42 #

      My family doesn’t eat at McDonalds but that’s because we think their food is crap. Not because I think they are purposely trying to kill us. :)

    • Sullivan June 10, 2012 at 19:49 #

      “so to speak disparagingly of each other would seem counterproductive.”

      As is discounting another’s comments as being “angry”, as you have done. Such comments, especially when inaccurately applied as in your response, are often used as a debate tactic. An attempt to appear more rational than the other, while at the same time attacking the other.

      You opened the door to being mocked (which is a more accurate description than angry for the response you received) with your own comments. Having trolled for precisely the response you were given, you do not have the standing to complain about it.

    • Chris June 10, 2012 at 19:57 #

      So do you guys have any issue with chlorine dioxide’s use as a large scale and small scale drinking water purification additive?

      Large scale at a very small percentage, and it actually evaporates away.

      And as far as the pink slime process, you have it wrong.

      And my white laundry uses only a small amount of bleach, and actually gets rinsed.

      … and… those processes have nothing to do with forcing invasive treatments on children.

    • Smut Clyde June 12, 2012 at 05:36 #

      So do you guys have any issue with chlorine dioxide’s use as a large scale and small scale drinking water purification additive?

      To rephrase Fabi Macedo: “This chemical is used in industry so it’s OK to force it into children’s bowels”.
      WHAT?

  22. Science Mom June 10, 2012 at 20:06 #

    But if we aren’t willing to discuss it in a civilized manner without shunning even the thought of its possibility then that’s just not very intelligent. Don’t assume every person that has questions about MMS and is not vehemently trying to talk it down at every turn is endorsing it. A lot of those people, I for one, are just trying to get more information.

    Spare us the JAQing off. You have been provided with adequate amounts of science-based information regarding MMS. And here you are still “questioning” it.

    At the end of the day it is going to come down to the decision of the parent and I do believe in that. It may very well be a bad decision but as long as a decision is made from a place of trying to help, there isn’t anything evil going on. People and children all over the world get hurt or injured from the good intentioned choices of their parents.

    What!? Good intentions are justification for abusing children? You’re falling into the same rabbit hole as those you are defending. You don’t bleach your kids, you don’t chelate them, you don’t chemically-castrate them, you don’t chuck them into HBOT chambers or saunas and you don’t shove medications down their gullets without proper diagnoses and for your information, “my kid’s acting yeasty” is not a diagnosis. Do you honestly think that these children have “metal toxicity”, systemic yeast, parasites and persistent bacterial infections? No, they don’t; they self-diagnose or have quack DAN!s more than happy to subject their children to bogus, expensive medical tests. You defend these people because you yourself are probably doing questionable things to your own child and don’t want anyone criticising you. That’s how these quack autism “cures” become more rank, because you stick together and none of you have the stones to call the quacks out.

    As long as those parents do their diligence in researching all sides of the decision, I won’t get all worked up over this because government does the exact same thing on a larger scale. And in my opinion, they don’t often make their decisions based on you and I. They make decisions based on the protection of business markets and the impact to the economy. Not always, but often.

    In a small way you are right about the special interests infiltrating oversight organisations.
    But just remember, those special interest groups that allow you and your ilk to perpetuate quack medicine on your children are also enjoying the same protection privilege.

    Lara, there’s more to this than just the word bleach. There are also many types of bleach. To use one word to describe them all is convenient but the cannotations that come along with it don’t necessarily all apply. However, I would agree with you if all I was looking at was the word “bleach”. My mind is not made up yet on this topic but I do see valid points on both sides. Chlorine dioxide is not the bleach you use in your home. So your experience with it would not be the same as with chlorine dioxide. Hydrogen peroxide is also in the bleach family. I bet you have a different connotation of that. You still may not ingest it but I’m just trying to relay the power of language.

    I really wish you could see the mental gymnastics you are performing right now; worthy of a gold medal. Tell me, what kind of bleach is good for you? You recognise that hydrogen peroxide is an oxidant or bleach, you shouldn’t ingest it but that doesn’t mean all bleaches are bad? WTF are you on? Not only that, Ms. Rivera recommends bleach enemas and “making them hold it” for several minutes. It chills me to think of what these parents are doing to make their non-verbal, special needs children hold in a caustic enema for non-existent “pathogens” no less. You people are whacked.

    • Sullivan June 10, 2012 at 20:26 #

      ” Don’t assume every person that has questions about MMS and is not vehemently trying to talk it down at every turn is endorsing it”

      Again, I see more debate tactics. In this case a straw man.

      There are more than just two discussions going on here. One would be the discussion where people have asked for evidence of biological plausibility and efficacy for this therapy. You have been invited to join that discussion and you avoid it.

      As to the use of chlorine dioxide for water treatment, of course I have no problem with it. Do you have a problem with “the dose makes the poison”? Do you complain about toxins in vaccines when the dose is below threshold? Do you understand that when children are getting sick that isn’t a good sign but a sign that the MMS is over the threshold dose?

    • Chris June 10, 2012 at 21:03 #

      Science Mom:

      It chills me to think of what these parents are doing to make their non-verbal, special needs children hold in a caustic enema for non-existent “pathogens” no less. You people are whacked.

      Now this brings up memories of a particular scene in the 1976 mini-series “Sybil”, where the little girl was supposed to “hold her water” while tied to a piano as the mother played it loudly.

  23. lilady June 10, 2012 at 21:04 #

    So sorry Fabi, if you think I am strident when I defend the rights of kids to not be abused by their parents experimenting on them.

    I also get p*ssed off when parents medically neglect their children by denying them protective immunizations.

    I find your continual defense of parents who neglect and abuse their children offensive

    Moreover, I find your views about a parents’ rights to inflict pain and suffering on a defenseless child to be appalling:

    “People and children all over the world get hurt or injured from the good intentioned choices of their parents. As long as those parents do their diligence in researching all sides of the decision, I won’t get all worked up over this because government does the exact same thing on a larger scale. And in my opinion, they don’t often make their decisions based on you and I.”

    No Fabi, knowing that a parent is neglecting or abusing a child is everyone’s business. To not intervene, makes you just as culpable as the neglectful or abusing parent.

    Here’s a “gem” from the Age of Autism thread about MMS, posted by an abusing parent:

    “Thank you for writing this article! We have been using MMS now for 3 weeks and have only seen positive results. I have to say the amount of worms and junk coming out of my son now is really what has convinced me to stay the course. Who knew our kids were harboring such horrific parasites inside their little bodies. I am one of the Moms who for the past seven years has seen multiple DAN docs, attended conferences, had $1000’s of dollars of tests done and spent 10 times that on supplements and treatments…..”

    Grow up Fabi, get some basic knowledge about biochemistry and immunology, do some research on the internet at reliable websites and stop believing in all the big government conspiracies.

    • Shondolyn Gibson June 10, 2012 at 23:52 #

      Wow. This so needs to be banned… These poor kids. Its not even parasites but this dang bleach stuff.

    • brian June 11, 2012 at 01:07 #

      lilady quoted a comment from Lisa B at AoA:

      We have been using MMS now for 3 weeks and have only seen positive results. I have to say the amount of worms and junk coming out of my son now is really what has convinced me to stay the course. Who knew our kids were harboring such horrific parasites inside their little bodies.

      That’s amazing!

      I certainly hope that Lisa B asks a qualified parasitologist to identify those abundant “worms.” Since, to my knowledge (supported by a quick search at PubMed) NOBODY has ever meaningfully associated helminth parasites with autism before, this might be an important advance. Worms! And Junk! And horrific parasites!

      (OTOH, Lisa B–despite investing thousands for supplements and ten times that for treatments, conferences, and consultations with multiple DAN docs over seven years, might not be able to tell shit from Shinola except to think that one makes a better sandwich.)

      Worms!

  24. Sebastian Lawhorne June 10, 2012 at 22:39 #

    Where exactly did the Kim Stagliano comment come from? I want to cite it for a Facebook column I’m writing.

  25. lilady June 11, 2012 at 05:43 #

    @ brian: Naughty, naughty…but clever. Haven’t heard that expression recently. For the younger posters here:

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/know_shit_from_Shinola

    Getting back to that post from AoA…Does that crazy mother actually think she is seeing worms in her child’s stool? Just thinking about the mental gymnastics she goes through to justify her sadistic treatment of her child, makes me feel ill.

  26. Roger Kulp June 11, 2012 at 08:17 #

    Fabi Macedo June 10, 2012 at 20:02 #

    I think there are really two different conversations going on here. If you believe autism is simply a neurological disorder then you certainly wouldn’t want to do any type of therapies that involve physiological changes. If you believe it is a mixture of both physiological and neurological then it is worth discussing.

    There are many types of “autism”,with many different sets of problems.Intellectual disability,multiple psychiatric comorbids,autoimmune disease,and at least half a dozen confirmed metabolic/neurometabolic diseases.Each needs to be treated differently,and none have anything to do with vaccines,metals,toxins,parasites,or systemic yeast.

    Fabi,I am probably a lot older than you are,and I have a fairly severe initial autism diagnosis.I am willing to wager,I have as many or more medical issues than your child has.I have had multiple regressions triggered by acute illness.I struggled for decades to get a diagnosis for my medical problems.In the last few years,I have gradually put together a genetic picture,involving multiple genes related to folate and homocysteine metabolism.I have also had major improvements,of late,in my autism,and behavioural problems with the right prescription drugs to treat the underlying disease.Not a cure,but improvement.

    This is not something that started with the MMR,or any other vaccine,but it is something that science has only begun to unravel fairly recently.Neuroimmunology and neurometabolism are both emerging fields of medicine.

    Fabi,what sort of tests have you gotten for your child? Immune or metabolic tests in particular.I know what it’s like to have to go to a DAN! to get the initial testing done,so you can get a general idea where the problems are,but then you move on from there to a more mainstream hospital.The doctors that are researching these diseases are hungry for patients to study.

    Please if you care about your child,look for a cause beyond Jenny McCarthy,Age of Autism.`

  27. Liz Ditz (@lizditz) June 11, 2012 at 19:26 #

    Science Mom has written an open letter to “biomeddlers”

    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/06/open-letter-to-biomeddlers.html

    “…You are positively shameful, gathering at that quackfest AutismOne for what passes as camaraderie with your fellow biomeddlers to share your bullshit recovery stories (even though you’ve been “recovering” your kid for years now) and swap “diagnoses’ and “treatments” like baking tips you foist upon your children.”

  28. futuredave5 June 11, 2012 at 19:27 #

    Wait. What? I think there are some parents who have valid concerns about vaccines. How does this put me in the same crowd of people who give their kids bleach?

    • Gray Falcon June 11, 2012 at 19:34 #

      To know that evil happens, and to be in a position to denounce it, but to do nothing of the sort, makes one a conspirator in evil.

      • futuredave5 June 12, 2012 at 18:06 #

        That is a true statement. This website has done a great job of discussing alternative treatments and explaining why “harmless-but-ineffective” is actually not harmless. This site (and a few others) have done a good job, and refused to back down to quackery. I should applaud this, and I do.

        I only jump off the train when someone is called “evil” (or worse) for asking questions. Because my son had such a terrible reaction to vaccines, I ask a lot of questions now. More often than you might think, I am dismissed as a bad parent, a fool, or a sociopath – just for asking questions.

        I have no problem denouncing MMS – it is wrong on many levels at once. But the anti-vaccine crowd is hardly keeping me up at night.

  29. Science Mom June 11, 2012 at 19:39 #

    Wait. What? I think there are some parents who have valid concerns about vaccines. How does this put me in the same crowd of people who give their kids bleach?

    Quite simply, not the same thing. I have concerns about vaccines or any medical intervention that my children may need. That is a far cry from being full-on anti-vaccine, proselytising your pseudo-science nonsense, “diagnosing” your children as “vaccine-damaged”, “parasite-infected”, “pathogen-infested” and “yeasty” and treating them with all manners of quackery to “cure” them. Clear?

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. A Note to Jenny McCarthy | An Autism Dad - June 10, 2012

    [...] http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2012/06/09/mms-the-apologists-step-in/ refers to you as saying ‘Jenny McCarthy more disgustingly put it, those who “like the attention” of having a disabled child and so do nothing.’ This is almost stating that parents who do nothing for their children suffer from Munchhausen by Proxy Syndrome. Of course doing nothing means to you, doing nothing in that way that you define as the correct way. Your correct way is the Generation Rescue/Autism One crap – untested, and in many instances, dangerous practices. [...]

  2. Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) and autism at Autism One: Kerri Rivera’s apologists strike back – Respectful Insolence - June 11, 2012

    [...] things that are so beyond the pale that they don’t belong even at Autism One. I agree with Sullivan and Emily on this count that the organizers of Autism One should renounce such quackery, in [...]

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