Autism Blog - Autism, Chelation and Quackery

15 Apr 2007

Author: Kev
Comments: 99

Autism, Chelation and Quackery

Mercury Mum, Christine Heeren recently posted a video of her son receiving IV chelation on YouTube.

UPDATE: Shortly after this blog post went live, the YouTube video disappeared. Luckily I had already grabbed a copy which you can view here:

Its a disturbing video on many levels. Heeren’s son has been undergoing chelation for seven months now and is still clearly totally autistic. During this video he is apparently writing ‘bus numbers’ down. The blog that Ms Heeren keeps (link on YouTube page) also makes it clear that her son still stims and he displays many common outward signs of autism (the scrunching up of the eyes at the start of the video reminds me of something my daughter does very much).

Heeren is subjecting her son to the Buttar protocol which should give anyone the stone cold heebie jeebies in and of itself. One patient of Buttar’s said that:

I find that Dr. Buttar talks a lot but produces little evidence.

And another said:

All the information about Dr. Buttar is still on this site but I no longer am one of his patients and I do not recommend him to any one for any reason. If you go to him for treatment BEWARE, BEWARE and read Roger Masonâ€™s books first and go to QuackWatch.org first!

However, maybe we should take some kind of solace from the fact that Heeren’s doctor is not actually Buttar himself, only trained by Buttar. Maybe he’s a good doctor.

Heeren’s doctor is Muneer Imam a shy, kind looking man wouldn’t you agree?

Well, he may well be.

In Jan 1993, the New York Office of Professional Conduct charged Muneer Imam:

...with gross negligence, gross incompetence, negligence on more than one occasion and failure to maintain adequate records.

The Hearing Committee sustained the charges of negligence on more than one occasion, incompetence on more than one occasion and failure to maintain adequate records. The Hearing Committee found Imam guilty of careless practice, lack of attention to detail and failure to appreciate the severity of patient illness

The incidents have included at least one death of a patient under the care of Imam.

The Hearing Committee (incredibly in my view) said he could probably be rehabilitated and laid out a plan of rehabilitation.

This all took place under Imam’s work at an ER. Imam no longer does ER work. I asked a medical friend about why that might be and xyr response was:

Since he no longer seems to do ER work, I imagine he settled a med mal claim for deceased patient A, and his insurer refused to write coverage for ER work and no hospital would cover him

Is this really someone any parent would want to trust with the kids life? A doctor found to be incompetent, negligent and who doesn’t pay attention to detail?

This inability to pay attention to details certainly seems to be playing out on Heeren’s video. Here is Imam’s nurse (a Vietnam vet called Nick) fitting the IV for a course of chelation.

No sterile

When I showed this to my medical friend xyr response was horrified:

WTF is this alleged nurse doing starting an IV without gloves??? What happened to sterile technique? Have they lost their minds?

and

What is this alleged nurse doing using that frigging tiny gauge needle???

It seems that the chelation protocol Buttar uses specifies a 22 gauge butterfly needle, not the tiny one seen in the video. There are good reasons why:

.....because this is the easiest to use for employees with no medical training who call themselves “chelation technicians.” The tiny needle also serves to prevent patients from killing themselves by increasing the drip rate when they’re sick of sitting around for hours. Increasing the drip through a 22 gauge butterfly needle should (in theory) burst the vein before delivering Endrate at a lethal rate. Clever stuff.

While almost everyone can start an IV with this tiny needle, it’s dangerous to use for chelation because if patients get into trouble you want a large bore needle inserted in case you need to administer drugs and fluids for treatment or god forbid, resuscitation. Starting a second IV with an appropriate size needle in a patient in circulatory collapse from shock is difficult and sometimes impossible. The daunting prospect of starting an IV in the jugular makes sane physicians do everything to avoid being in this position.

Administering a bolus of calcium gluconate to counteract hypocalcemia through this tiny needle can result in a swollen hand (when the IV infiltrates) attached to a dead patient.

So – Nick the Nurse also has incompetence issues.

At one point in this video I thought I had gone mad. Did my ears deceive me or did I really hear Nick the Nurse describe how they also chelated with vinegar and garlic? I rewound the video. Yep, he said it alright. Vinegar and Garlic. I could say ‘wow’ or ‘holy crap’ to express my incredulity after hearing that but really, no words do it justice. They are chelating this poor lad with Garlic and vinegar.

And why? What for?

Here is Heeren’s son’s first ever lab report (click the image to get a bigger one).

Let’s remember that these lab reports are all part of the quack culture and I suspect are frequently exaggerated to get the parent to use more of their treatments. If even these results are exaggerated then I’m dumbfounded. Everything except Aluminium and Lead are within normal ranges. And even those two are just barely in the elevated range.

It is on this basis that Heeren decided to start chelating her son using a doctor described as medically negligent and incompetent under the tender care of a ‘nurse’ who doesn’t know the protocol he is supposed to be using and who is actively putting this boy (and presumably others) in potential danger.

Oh and don’t forget the garlic and vinegar. Thanks Rashid, thanks Muneer, thanks Nick.

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Comments

99 Responses to “Autism, Chelation and Quackery”

Harold L Doherty
April 15th, 2007
10:19:28

Mr. Leitch

The idea that autism is caused, in whole or in part, by mercury based vaccine preservatives is not supported by scientific study. It is not a view that I have ever found persuasive.

But why is it necessary for you to speak in derogatory terms and malign people who disagree with your?

“Mercury Moms” sounds like a schoolyard taunt that does not belong in a discussion of a serious subject. It also brings to mind Bettleheim’s “Refrigerator Moms” concept which caused so much harm.

Harold Doherty
Fredericton, New Brunswick
Canada
Brian Deer
April 15th, 2007
10:58:00

Harold: I agree with you about the “refrigerator mom” parallel (which, of course, even Kanner had some truck with.)

I suppose there might be some historical interest to see whether the psychiatrists who first described autism drew any well-paying parents to their offices after loading them down with guilt over the quality of their parenting.

But certainly, what we see now is the self-same persons who promote guilt over vaccines (“if you’d listened to us, your child wouldn’t be autistic”), who are scooping up the dough from these parents.

Redeem your guilt: send money now!
Kev
April 15th, 2007
12:08:19

Once again you display you’re breathtaking knowledge of the subject Mr Doherty. Mercury Moms is what they call themselves.

Further, the idea that one idiots reprehensible treatment of parents in the past somehow excuses the present behaviour of people who really should know better simply doesn’t fly.
notmercury
April 15th, 2007
12:20:32

Madness. Complete madness.
Harold L Doherty
April 15th, 2007
12:57:25

Mr. Leitch

Once again you resort to insult. Try to get past your hostility. It adds nothing to discussion of a serious topic like autism. I don’t dispute their usage of the term, I question YOUR usage of it as an insult along the lines of your other comment on anyone who disagrees with your perspective. I do not agree with the vaccine-autism theories but I do not attack parents who subscribe to that belief.

You may also want to revisit your last post and your usage of expressions like “one idiot’s” given your sensitivity and objection to the use of common sense expressions such as “low functioning autistic person”.

Have a good day Mr. Leitch.

Harold L Doherty
Fredericton New Brunswick
Canada
Lucas McCarty
April 15th, 2007
13:49:05

I’m still not understanding what Mr Doherty’s objections actually are. It’s not ad hominem when people are described in relation to their actual actions or positions. No one has been called anything for the sake of calling them it.

Kevin has not at all linked any disparaging term with disagreeing with him, so it’s very dishonst for Mr Doherty to make out like this is the case.

‘Common sense’ in this case is presumptiousness with a spin on it. I don’t think anyone disagrees with ‘low-functioning’ being used to describe some Autistic people as long as it is recognised that there are plentiful non-Autistic people who are ‘low-functioning’ by the same measures yet are somehow treated differently and given rights.
Brian Deer
April 15th, 2007
14:11:08

I think there’s a bit of confusion here, which I admit I didn’t spot initially.

Possibly, one needs to be fairly pre-occupied with the minutia of the lawsuits to know that “mercury moms” is a description some of the plaintiff parents have appended to themselves. Sometimes they paint it on placards and stuff.

I don’t think Harold is up for being sniped at on this account, if he genuinely didn’t know this. Kev didn’t make up the expression, and I don’t think it’s like the “n——-” – word, that some people can use, but others can’t.

No question, however, that a big bunch of these moms DO blame themselves, and are hence profoundly vulnerable to potential exploitation.

Maybe if there are any lurking around, they could offer a thought on this.
Bartholomew Cubbins
April 15th, 2007
14:20:50

This is experimentation designed to fill the need of the parent to feel like they’re in control of something.

Any moron inserting a needle without sterile gloves is incompetent and dangerous and should be investigated by the state’s department of health immediately.

This doesn’t look like a how-to video to me, it looks more like evidence exhibit A.

Does Butter still inject urine into his patients?
Jeanette
April 15th, 2007
14:25:29

Hi Kevin,
How lovely it must be to be that child. To be dragged from procedure to procedure.
I think the purpose of the youtube video was to show the viewers that chelation is “no big deal” to this child….
When I viewed the video, I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I looked over at one of my autistic children and smiled. He will NEVER know the feeling of chelation, be it oral, through IV, cream or suppository.
The tests these doctors show the parent’s..whether it be the lab results of the metals or the pictures of their children’s guts remind me of when you take your car in for an oil change. The technician brings out the dirtiest oil filter, claiming it is yours. This is just a ploy for you to buy a new one…
The parent of the child is so devastated by the results, they will purchase any treatment to rid their child of heavy metals or gut issues.
Just my opinion…
As far as name calling goes….I won’t even touch that one.
Kev
April 15th, 2007
14:36:25

“Once again you resort to insult. Try to get past your hostility. It adds nothing to discussion of a serious topic like autism.”

Trust me, I’m not being hostile.

“I donâ€™t dispute their usage of the term, I question YOUR usage of it as an insult along the lines of your other comment on anyone who disagrees with your perspective.”

Where exactly did I use the term as an insult? I used it to describe someone in this post. If she or anyone else feels insulted – too bad. Get over it.

“I do not agree with the vaccine-autism theories but I do not attack parents who subscribe to that belief.”

Whereas I will if the situation demands it. The word ‘parent’ does not equate with the word ‘saint’ or the word ‘blameless’. As you do accurately note, autism is a serious issue and needlessly chelating a child’ with vinegar and garlic is pretty damn serious too. I’m not a ‘love the sinner hate the sin’ type Mr Doherty. I’m a ‘hold the sinner to account for their own actions’ type.

“You may also want to revisit your last post and your usage of expressions like â€œone idiotâ€™sâ€ given your sensitivity and objection to the use of common sense expressions such as â€œlow functioning autistic personâ€.”

Man, these strawmen are coming thick and fast. Are you suggesting now that the word ‘idiot’ is a pejorative? And that it is comparable to ‘low functioning autistic’? A phrase, by the way, that I do not object to but see as meaningless. Maybe you could give me the name of the clinical psychologist who still uses ‘idiot’ as a medical category? Failing that, please provide evidence that the word is anything other than a bog-standard descriptive term in general use and not denoting any kind of psychological issue.

If you would like a personal definition of ‘idiot’ then it means someone who is extremely foolish.

Lastly, Mr Doherty, please refrain from providing your name and location at the end of each comment.
bethduckie
April 15th, 2007
14:40:37

I know someone who ‘chelated’ her kid with garlic. It wasn’t anything to do with IV though, just lots and lots… and lots and lots… of garlic- cooked in food, raw on food, grated on food…

Probably harmless, if a tad stinky. I dunno if this is the case here.

I dont think I’ll watch the video though shudder
Joel Smith
April 15th, 2007
14:59:59

Jeanette,

The oil change place actually brings out the air filter, not the oil filter (which you are right in saying generally doesn’t need to be replaced when the oil change place claims it does – and in most cars, even a very non-mechanical person can do this themselves for 1/3 the price). The oil filter is always changed with the oil (with rare exceptions) – you aren’t asked about that one.

But, yep, your right about the test results!

I’ll add that lab tests are calibrated so that most of the population who is healthy will fall within the “normal” range. However, a small percentage (it could be as high as 5%) will be healthy yet fall outside that range – we are all different when it comes to chemicals in the body. Let’s say 5% fall outside, and you give someone 20 tests – logic would imply that at least one would be outside the normal range in nearly everyone.

I also note that the test appears to be a urine test which is not known for accuracy.
jypsy
April 15th, 2007
15:13:50

Vinegar and Garlic…

I hope this video is a fake… like the one she used to sell (still does?) about the 24 year old non verbal man…..
kristina
April 15th, 2007
16:57:03

Then there’s a family we know who has been doing chelation of various sorts for the past few years—-I do not have the exact figure—-the child is certainly still autistic. The chelating continues.
Autism Vox
April 15th, 2007
17:47:55

[...] And, in regard to some treatments, such as chelation, that some use to “treat” autism, perhaps it might also be well to ask: “Autism: Treatment or Business Opportunity?” aging, altenative medicine, ASD, Aspergers, autism, Chelation, children, developmental disability, Education, family, geriatrics, health, PDD NOS, quacks, special needsAdd to: April 15th, 2007 | Permalink | No Comments » [...]
Kev
April 15th, 2007
17:58:51

“I also note that the test appears to be a urine test which is not known for accuracy.”

More about that soon :o)
HN
April 15th, 2007
18:22:41

What I got when I clicked on the video link:
“This is a private video. If you have been sent this video, please make sure you accept the sender’s friend request.”

Perhaps the attention she got was too much. I was actually just wondering what kind of comments she was getting for doing that to her kid.
Ms. Clark
April 15th, 2007
18:36:01

I think this mercury mom made the video private. When I clicked on the link this time I couldn’t see it. I guess she’s not so proud of it now?

It’s interesting that this doctor graduated from a sort of lower grade medical school in the Caribbean. He sells injections of herbal extracts for cellulite problems. His webpage looks much like a web page for a beuty spa. Yup, I’m gonna take my kid there to get chelated. Christine Heeran’s YouTube page said her son was getting IV DMPS and EDTA, one can only hope it’s not the bad EDTA that killed Abubakar.

In the video helpful Nick sort of baby-talks to Michael telling him how glutathioine (the first bag of stuff MIchael got) helps autistic kids. The second bag looked kind of like a pale orangey yellow solution, that was DMPS, I think. The last bag had “vinegar and garlic in it”. Nick made sure that the boy knew they were all “sulfur based chelators.”

I first learned of “mercury moms” from David Kirby who explains that it was a term they use themselves. When the mercury parents started to threaten gov’t employees and threaten me, personally, and others I know of (death threats to a doctor who said things in opposition to their beliefs and death threats against his young children), then they became the mercury mafia and the mercury malitia.

I am not going to refrain from using these terms to describe the more evil of the mercury parents. I wouldn’t call Christine Heeren on of the Mercury Mafia unless I found out she was specifically one of those who makes serious threats against people who are trying to get parents to stop harming their children with quackery.

I don’t see any pleas from Harold D. for these parents to please stop treating their children with dangerous quack treatments, and to please stop supporting this fraud. Harold, to me, in not interested in what will happen (short or long term harm) to the Michaels of the mercury parent world.

The video says she takes Michael every week to get this treatment. What is happening to this boy’s veins? Some of the quacks put a pain-deadener in with the bag of chelator so the kid doesn’t scream in pain as the vein damaging chelator enters the body.

Calling Christine a “mercury mom” is playing nice. She is actively advocating this “protocol” vinegar and garlic and all, and perhaps specifically advertising for Dr. Muneer. i wondered why Munner and nurse Nick agreed to let her video tape this. I think they figured it would bring in more business. In fact it could bring in a visit from the authorities. Maybe that’s why Christine made the video private.

You’d think nurse Nick would have put on gloves for the camera, at least. He’s not wearing gloves when he puts the needle in, and he’s not wearing gloves when he takes the needle out.

I think Christine has a my space where she talks about the chelation thing.
Ms. Clark
April 15th, 2007
18:37:07

HN,

The last time I looked, there were two short comments saying what a wonderful and brave boy Michael is.
Michael J. Dochniak
April 15th, 2007
18:38:15

Kev wrote:

“Lastly, Mr Doherty, please refrain from providing your name and location at the end of each comment”.

Q. Why can’t he disclose such information.
Kev
April 15th, 2007
18:46:39

I didn’t say he couldn’t I asked him to stop. His name is at the top of each comment and repetition is pointless and irritating.
Kev
April 15th, 2007
18:47:30

re the video disappearing – its OK, I grabbed a copy. I’ll post it later.
Prometheus
April 15th, 2007
19:09:01

Joel Smith,

You are correct that laboratory tests are “normed” so that 95% of the healthy population is within the “normal range”.

However, some of the labs used by the chelationistas have “hedged” their bets by changing the “normal range” a bit. Instead of using two standard deviations on either side of the mean (mean +/- 2sd) as the “normal range”, they make the “normal range” only one standard deviation on either side of the mean (mean +/- 1sd).

This “modified” method for expressing the “normal range” means that only 68% of the healthy population will have values within the “normal range” and – as a result – 32% of people who have no health problems will have “abnormal” lab values.

Some labs – no names – classify those values that fall between one and two standard deviations from the mean as having “warning”, “caution” or “borderline” values. This is completely bogus, as I have outlined above.

In short, there is a lot of flim-flammery and general deception being practiced by companies that sell clinical laboratory services directly to the public.

Prometheus
Kev
April 15th, 2007
19:10:18

The video is now at the top of this thread.
Michael J. Dochniak
April 15th, 2007
19:17:27

Kev wrote:

“I didnâ€™t say he couldnâ€™t I asked him to stop. His name is at the top of each comment and repetition is pointless and irritating”

Comment:

Right after writing my last message my 16-year old, who is autistic and non-verbal, stormed into the house mad as hell with bloody hands and a bleeding neck, which were self inficted, because he can’t communicate his needs to his mother who took him for a joy ride. This type of behavior has been with us for 14 years. Instead of trying to stop Mr. Whoever’s writing style please tell me if my boy’s behavior is typical for a 16-year old. Or better yet, tell me what I should say to my wife in that she’s in tears and terrified of her 16 year old son who has the mental capacity of a 6 month old child and the strength of a high school linebacker.
notmercury
April 15th, 2007
19:39:57

Mr. Dochniak,
I am sincerely sorry your son becomes so frustrated with his inability to communicate that he ends up injuring himself.

Many of us have dealt with similar and difficult behaviors for many years. You are not alone.

I fail to see how Kevin’s comment, directed toward Mr. Doherty, has distracted him from helping other parents such as yourself.

In fact, if you haven’t noticed it already, Kev has set up a wonderful Parent’s forum where I’m sure you will find some helpful advice for dealing with this sort of thing.
Michael J. Dochniak
April 15th, 2007
19:58:13

notmercury wrote:

“I fail to see how Kevinâ€™s comment, directed toward Mr. Doherty, has distracted him from helping other parents such as yourself”

Comment:

Stress, stress, stress, stress, stress…..just typing it helps relieve some of the stress. Kevin, please tell Mr. Dougherty that if he must it’s ok to type his name and location at the end of his messages. My autistic boy does alot of repetition that to me seems pointless and irritating but I know that’s what he needs to do.
Prometheus
April 15th, 2007
20:03:53

Mr. Dochniak,

Your son’s behavior is not “typical” for a 16 year-old boy.

Were you not aware of that already?

As for advice on how you and your wife should deal with your son, I have nothing terribly helpful to contribute.

I’m pretty sure that Mr. Doherty’s comments – or his address – are also not helpful in that respect.

If there is a point that you would like to make, it might be better if you said it more directly.

Prometheus
Kev
April 15th, 2007
20:11:47

Earlier today, my daughter had a meltdown for the exact same reason. What leads you to believe I have any answers to give you?

All I know is that strapping my daughter to a table and filling her with garlic and vinegar won’t help. What I think will help is listening to people who used to be autistic children and who are now autistic adults who can help see my daughters behaviours in a way that might allow us to pre-empt these behaviours and find a workable solution.

I am left wondering exactly what about my request to Mr Doherty prompted your story however.
jypsy
April 15th, 2007
20:15:24

That video’s description:
“My 7 year old son Michael does IV Chelation (DMPS & EDTA) with Dr. Imam in Center Moriches (Dr. Buttar’s Protocol). Nick is the nurse in the video who gives him an IV. The whole process takes about 2 hours. Michael has been doing chelation since August 2006. To read more about it visit:
http://www.michaelsrecovery.blogspot.com”;

The comments:
Quantumerik (1 week ago)
What a brave little boy, Christine! Thanks for sharing!
-Erik

sylkec (2 days ago)
this little boy is amazing. God bless him!
Michael J. Dochniak
April 15th, 2007
20:38:25

Kev wrote:

“I am left wondering exactly what about my request to Mr Doherty prompted your story however”

Comment:

It’s just something that happened at the moment. Mr. Doherty I’m sure is a proud Canadian and I’m glad that he shares such information with us. That’s it plain and simple.
Jeanette
April 15th, 2007
20:49:05

Sorry,
I stand corrected about the filter. I actually know the difference….Agriculture Education degree here.
Jeanette
jypsy
April 15th, 2007
20:52:25

Hi Michael,

If you’re counting proud Canadians, count me in. That’s easy enough to discover though by clicking on my name attached to this comment. Same goes for Mr. Doherty’s.
Bonnie Ventura
April 15th, 2007
20:56:39

I agree with Bartholomew Cubbins that it looks like evidence exhibit A… and it ought to be.

Kev, if you haven’t already done so, I suggest sending a copy of that video to the medical licensing authorities.
Do'C
April 15th, 2007
21:15:39

What’s up with the “garlic and vinegar” infusion? Is that slang for an actual pharmacy compound that isn’t really just some sort of dietary supplement?
Do'C
April 15th, 2007
21:24:32

This right from the good doctor’s website

“DMPS has been given only experimental FDA status in the US.”

No doubt this is video footage from IRB-approved research, right?
Kelly
April 15th, 2007
21:32:38

I feel sorry for the child. He’s such a beautiful little boy and he seems very smart too. I don’t know him but I think he has a lot of potential. I’d love to work with autistic children (I see so much of myself in them) but I’d not be able to do anything that I’d know could be painful for reasons that aren’t the right ones.
Kev
April 15th, 2007
21:33:23

“. The last bag had â€œvinegar and garlic in itâ€”

Woah – wait – I thought they were just feeding it to him/rubbing it into his skin. Are they actually putting vinegar and garlic into this kids VEINS???

Every time I think I can’t be more shocked, these people manage it.
Kev
April 15th, 2007
21:44:18

“Mr. Doherty Iâ€™m sure is a proud Canadian and Iâ€™m glad that he shares such information with us. Thatâ€™s it plain and simple.”

With all due respect, I’m not. Being proud of one’s country is one thing. Repeating the same information over and over again is quite another. I’m simply politely asking that he refrain from doing so.
Michael J. Dochniak
April 15th, 2007
22:48:22

Kev wrote:

“With all due respect, Iâ€™m not. Being proud of oneâ€™s country is one thing. Repeating the same information over and over again is quite another. Iâ€™m simply politely asking that he refrain from doing so”

Comment:

Okay, let me politely ask everyone to stop talking about chelation in that such information has been discussed for years – “over and over again”. Instead why can’t we talk about something new as it relates to the etiology of ASD? For example, read the research article at http://www.autismdoc.org and let’s discuss why such antigenic proteins continue to maintain the status, “Harmless of the familiar”. Furthermore, then Prometheus can complain about the prevalence of anecdotal evidence and the lack of experimental evidence even though biomedical ethics restricts any human research based on non-therapeutic intent.
Prometheus
April 15th, 2007
23:15:16

Mr. Dchniak,

With all due respect, this is not your ‘blog – it is Kev’s. If he wants to tell somebody – even me – to stop doing something, that is his right.

I read your articles – the one online and the one in Medical Hypotheses. I might caution you that publishing in Medical Hypotheses is not a way to establish your bona fides as a scientist.

At any rate, it is an interesting hypothesis. Do you have any data to support it?

As for your request that I address “...the prevalence of anecdotal evidence and the lack of experimental evidence even though biomedical ethics restricts any human research based on non-therapeutic intent.” Could you be more clear about that? Which area of research are you referring to? Your sentence didn’t make much sense.

Prometheus
Michael J. Dochniak
April 15th, 2007
23:38:41

Prometheus wrote:

“As for your request that I address â€œ...the prevalence of anecdotal evidence and the lack of experimental evidence even though biomedical ethics restricts any human research based on non-therapeutic intent.â€ Could you be more clear about that? Which area of research are you referring to? Your sentence didnâ€™t make much sense”.

Comment:

I’ll direct you to the Declaration of Helsinki which is a code of research ethics from the World Medical Association. This will explain your question much better than I can at the moment.

Furthermore, thanks for reading the hypothesis Prometheus and any constructive criticism you may have would be greatly appreciated.
notmercury
April 15th, 2007
23:48:28

Prometheus: “I read your articles â€“ the one online and the one in Medical Hypotheses.”

And patent, don’t forget the patent app.

Mr. Dochniak: any constructive criticism you may have would be greatly appreciated.

Are you asking for criticism, or only constructive criticism?
isles
April 16th, 2007
00:00:55

I was dismayed to read a release from Autism Speaks with a subhead that made it sound like there had been some research findings that favored the use of chelation for autism, only to read down and discover that the only research under discussion was nothing new: one paper showing that chelation for moderate to low lead levels didn’t improve cognition, and one finding that chelating non-lead-exposed rats had detrimental effects.

I guess what the subhead must have been referring to was a mention of Elizabeth Mumper (DAN! doctor) having made a presentation in which she claimed to have noticed that patients in her practice were improving with chelation. Of course she had no data to back this up.

There’s a great paper out there where some researchers took hair samples from one individual and sent them to several consumer labs for analysis. No names were named, but I have to presume it was places like Doctors’ Data and Great Smokies, where the mercury parents get all their tests done.

And guess what. The tests came back with all different results. Some said the subject was dangerously high in an element while others would say dangerously low. Their therapeutic recommendations were all over the map. And this is what parents are relying on in deciding to subject their kids to something like intravenous chelation?

That’s the kind of thing a you’re supposed to protect your child FROM, people. Nutjobs with needles.
Prometheus
April 16th, 2007
00:10:29

Mr. Dochniak,

You know, I find it disconcerting when I ask for clarification of an unclear question and am referred to a different source rather than given an answer.

Let me be more direct.

You stated, in a previous post:

“...letâ€™s discuss why such antigenic proteins continue to maintain the status, â€œHarmless of the familiarâ€. Furthermore, then Prometheus can complain about the prevalence of anecdotal evidence and the lack of experimental evidence even though biomedical ethics restricts any human research based on non-therapeutic intent.”

Let me preface my question by saying that I am intimately familiar with the Declaration of Helsinki.

What I would like to know is the following:

What is it about the “antigenic proteins” that makes it impossible to perform human research on them?

I can conceive of a number of ways that we could test the hypothesis that the Hev-family of proteins is responsible or contributory to the disorders you mention. Given the number of people with latex allergies, it should be relatively simple to see if their children – who would not be exposed to latex or its associated proteins – have a prevalence of the disorders in question higher, lower or the same as the general populations.

I should also point out that having a hypothesis for how something might happen is a long, long way from showing that is does happen. For that, you need data. Granted, I don’t think that an IRB in the country will approve injecting latex proteins into children, but there are many ways around this hurdle – ways that many other researchers have found and used successfully.

In short, I will “complain” that there is no data to support your assertions. In fact, there aren’t even any good anecdotes, if your article is an indication of the available information.

Prometheus
alyric
April 16th, 2007
00:11:54

Michael Dochniak said:

“Or better yet, tell me what I should say to my wife in that sheâ€™s in tears and terrified of her 16 year old son who has the mental capacity of a 6 month old child and the strength of a high school linebacker.”

This is a very odd paragraph in what appears frankly to be an inconsistent post overall. Maybe I’ve just become rather sceptical of the veracity of some accounts.
Here we have the mother, terrified, and who wouldn’t be if this has been going on for 14 years, who took an infant with infant-like behaviour but the size of an adult on a car ride just for fun and presumably alone.

Just doesn’t seem to ring true.
daedalus2u
April 16th, 2007
01:08:49

Prometheus,
I think what Mr. Dochniak is trying to say (rather inarticulately) is that any “treatment” that is intended to be an “experiment” must conform to the Declaration of Helsinki and provide appropriate protections for vulnerable populations. Any “treatment” that is intended to be “therapeutic” does not.

This is the “catch-22” that the quacks find themselves in. If they keep records like it is an “experiment”, then they need to have an IRB and jump through all the hoops to protect children from “experimentation”. But if they just inject the children with any old crap and expect them to get better, then it is “therapy” and not “experimentation”, and they can charge the parents what ever the market will bear.

This is why the quacks don’t have any “experimental” data that their treatments work. If they collected data it would be an “experiment” and they can’t do an “experiment” until they can show that the potential benefit exceeds the potential harm (for which they need data). If they could just be allowed to do “experiments” on children without worrying about the Declaration of Helsinki, they would have the data.
Ms. Clark
April 16th, 2007
01:22:47

This is a rough transcript of the garlic and vinegar part which is close to the end:
Today michael started his chelation therapy with glutathione which many of the autistic children are deficient in,
in addition … the second bag was DMPS. That’s based on a child’s weight, we weigh them every week. And then we follow with the garlic and vinegar which has a greater affinity for bonding with lead and aluminum…
We pretty much get that all done in 2 hours and 20 minutes.”

Almost at the halfway point you can see three small bags of liquid hanging from the IV stand. I assumed that they were the three separate bags of stuff that were part of the Buttar protocol, the first bag, glutathione, the second bag DMPS (maybe with some additions) and the third bag the garlic and vinegar in saline, one supposes.

Dr. Imam doesn’t seem to be so keen on following FDA guidelines, does he? And if Christine’s son gets hurt by all of this, she’ll blame who? Probably the people who have been trying to get the mercury moms to use their brains and stop this garbage, and she’ll probably also blame the FDA. Surely she wouldn’t be suing the precious Dr. Imam who is just trying to help.
daedalus2u
April 16th, 2007
02:13:18

If they are giving him garlic and vineger intravenously, that is absolutely criminal. That could easily put him into anaphylactic shock. Even the glutathione could depending on how it is prepared and from what.
livsparents
April 16th, 2007
02:20:04

Wait, I thought gloves were to protect the injectOr not the injectEE!

For people bent on ‘acceptance’, you all sure don’t allow any breathing room outside of the circle…
Another Voice
April 16th, 2007
04:00:15

Breathing room outside of the circle???

This is outside of the galaxy. These folks are using vinegar in a childâ€™s vein. This is expensive witchcraft. They deserve no quarter!

Did Mom or Dad try a bag of vinegar mixture, to see how it would feel? The DAN says it is safe, so give it a go.
Ms. Clark
April 16th, 2007
04:24:44

livsparents,

Do you think that rubber gloves would protect the injector from a needle stick?

Would you want someone to start an IV on you with ungloved hands? I wouldn’t.

I don’t intend ever to accept medical fraud. The gullible have the right to hear the other side, the side the salesmen aren’t giving. I don’t see any “breathing room” when a child could die or be seriously harmed by a “therapy.”
HN
April 16th, 2007
04:38:27

Gloves are used to also protect the patient. Whenever you puncture the skin you are apt to introduce the flora (bacteria, fungi, etc) that live on YOUR skin into the puncture of the patient’s skin.

That is also why the area to be punctured is swabbed with iodine (or in my case something else because I react to iodine) to clean the area being punctured. If you are going to be stuck by a needle (either at a doctor’s office, a tattoo parlor, blood bank, etc) and the person with the needle does not have gloves on… RUN AWAY!

I give blood on a regular basis. I am screened for infectious diseases before I have a needle stuck into me, and I am only ever touched by gloved hands.

When is it ever proper to put a needle in a kid without gloves? Where is it shown that pushing drugs into a kid through an IV is an approved “cure” for autism? Who in their right mind puts that kind of child torture on the web for everyone to see? Why did it occur to that person that putting it on the web may not be a good idea only after this blog entry was posted?
Bax Teria
April 16th, 2007
04:52:21

See number one

“If you are going to be stuck by a needle (either at a doctorâ€™s office, a tattoo parlor, blood bank, etc) and the person with the needle does not have gloves onâ€¦ RUN AWAY!”

That’s good advice. Even the guys on Miami Ink (sorry Mr. Leitch – U.S. cable TV show about Tatoo business) seem to get it right.
Phil
April 16th, 2007
07:21:14

It would appear that Christine has removed the thread noted above completely and replaced it with a complaint about copyright.

I was going to inform her that she was hurting her child on the new thread, but there is no option for anonymity. Some people have different ways of not listening.
peelu
April 16th, 2007
07:48:16

First Person : The food in this restaurant is so bad!
Second Person: Yes! and such small quantities!

:)
Peelu
lordalfredhenry
April 16th, 2007
08:41:56

A very expensive IV bag. Chelation is either ineffective or dangerous on children. It’s a treatment of last resort…and that’s for children who work in nuclear power plants during their handling of radioactive material. Sound crazy? So does the chelation if one thinks about it. Yes, nice exposÃ© I think.
Michael J. Dochniak
April 16th, 2007
12:13:46

It appears that from many of the replies I’ve read this is a Brian Deer wanta-be site wherein everything is smoke and mirrors and perceived skeletons in the closet are editorial salvation.
Lucas McCarty
April 16th, 2007
12:19:28

As a picture thinker, do you have any idea how weird that sounds to me?
Kev
April 16th, 2007
12:50:37

Sorry we didn’t fall over ourselves agreeing with you Michael. I can only suggest you get yourself a blog where you can have everything to your own satisfaction.
notmercury
April 16th, 2007
13:35:11

Me too Lucas. I’m getting a rabid deer skeleton navigating around mirror stalagmites in a dark and smoke filled field.
Eric
April 16th, 2007
15:51:54

I feel saddened that a parent would have to resort to IV injections for chelation. There is plenty of research to indicate that heavy metals push children into autism (I don’t believe they are the ‘cause’), so it follows that removing them may bring children back from over that edge. But injecting? No way, gentle DMSA is probably the best way. What kind of doctor does this?
HN
April 16th, 2007
16:11:10

Eric said: “There is plenty of research to indicate that heavy metals push children into autism”

Could you point us to that research please?

Though be aware that anything printed in “Medical Hypothesis” or “Medical Veritas” or even “JPANDS” would not be considered sources of research. Even though the first one is listed at http://www.pubmed.gov .
qchan63
April 16th, 2007
18:02:13

I think the perfect topper to this video is when the poor kid is instructed to thank the nurse at the end, presumably for the extreme honor of being allowed to sit there for 2-plus hours while his veins are pumped full of what sounds more like salad dressing than medication.

Yeah … thanks. Thanks a lot.
Kev
April 16th, 2007
18:02:56

Eric – David Quig’s work is not based in reality.
Deer Kevin
April 16th, 2007
19:06:38

“It appears that from many of the replies Iâ€™ve read this is a Brian Deer wanta-be site wherein everything is smoke and mirrors and perceived skeletons in the closet are editorial salvation.”

Couldn’t agree more – both sites are pure bullshit.
Kev
April 16th, 2007
20:23:32

How hurtful ;o)
qchan63
April 16th, 2007
21:11:41

Even the purest bullshit is nothing a little vinaigrette couldn’t chelate out, i feel sure.
Michael J. Dochniak
April 16th, 2007
22:33:54

Kev wrote:

“Sorry we didnâ€™t fall over ourselves agreeing with you Michael. I can only suggest you get yourself a blog where you can have everything to your own satisfaction”

Comment:

Thanks for the advice. Also to prometheus, the theory is in it’s infancy and your recommendation on testing was very good. Thanks

I’d like to stick around, keep my mouth shut, and learn alittle more.
notmercury
April 16th, 2007
22:35:25

Gonna need a bigger bore needle for the shallots.
livsparents
April 17th, 2007
01:26:47

I was referring to the comments section, not the actual blog when I was talking ‘acceptance’; we are kind to those in agreement, but combattive with those who are not…

I understand though, your sandbox, your rules…
Ms. Clark
April 17th, 2007
02:34:23

Bill started it! :-P
Jeanette
April 17th, 2007
02:50:47

The more I think about this Youtube video, the more I wonder what the mother was thinking.
Okay, now she is mad because you found it and are commenting on it.
If she did not want comments, why in the heck was it on Youtube???
Was it to make herself feel better for the fact she was chelating her child, or to make other parent’s feel that it is okay to chelate their children?

We are criticized daily for being lazy, non-caring, watching our children stimming, abusive, uneducated parent’s….

I will take that any day over what I saw in that video or any others this mother has taped.

I can put my precious little ones to bed every night and not feel badly about any procedures done to them.
Call it whatever you want.
melody
April 17th, 2007
03:38:19

“Me too Lucas. Iâ€™m getting a rabid deer skeleton navigating around mirror stalagmites in a dark and smoke filled field.”

notmercury, are you my 9-1/2 son? I swear you talk (type) like him. ;) {and that’s not an insult, he’s brilliant}

About this video, holy crap. It sounds like something from medieval times or perhaps a way to ward off vampires. And NO GLOVES…geez, just freak me out. It all just freaks me out.
Anne
April 17th, 2007
04:41:02

I doubt that the garlic and vinegar is given intravenously. I think you get the treatment from this guy. Google it yourself if you don’t believe me.
Galloping Gourmed
April 17th, 2007
05:59:52

But the nurse makes it sound like the boy was sitting there the whole time he was being treated. I don’t think the boy got his garlic and vinegar in an emema. Though maybe Buttar ordered it as an enema and nurse Nick got confused and gave it IV. My guess is that there’s nothing but sterile saline in the third bag and they tell the suckers that it has stuff that will mop up the aluminum and lead that the DMPS and glutathione misses.

Can’t you just picture the menu and Nick asking, “What will it be this week Mrs. Zichitetta? The IV parsley looks good. Our customers have been raving about the effects of the imported IV chocolate, it’s very high in antioxidants you know, the children love it!.” They are selling beliefs. so why not sell a belief in intravenous garlic and vinegar. It’s all about selling up, so you try to get mom to agree to three bags instead of just one.
Kev
April 17th, 2007
07:59:43

Michael – you’re welcome to stick around, don’t feel you need to keep your mouth shut – speak up whenever you want, but – people disagree, its the way of the world.
notmercury
April 17th, 2007
12:23:03

Melody: “notmercury, are you my 9-1/2 son?”

Aw, mom. You never let me have any fun :-)
Can I have some Cheese Nips?
livsparents
April 17th, 2007
21:36:42

“Bill started it! :-P”

KEEEEVV, Ms Clark got sand in my shorts!
Phil
April 17th, 2007
23:46:48

Now, now, children – behave!

(Typed while killing myself laughing!!)
A lurker
April 18th, 2007
00:15:26

Is that totally autistic?

He makes eye contact. He responds to questions within an appropriate time frame. His fine motor skills look good. He has no apparent cognitive deficits. I see no stimming, perseverative behaviours or apparent signs of dysfunction of sensory integration.

I don’t understand the term apparently.
B lurker
April 18th, 2007
07:46:32

He’s perseverating on writing “bus numbers” it’s how he’s passing much of his time in that chair. Perseveration on transit systems is absolutely classic autism. His mom believes he still autistic, hence her plan to keep chelating him.

Nurse Nick says they give glutathione to autistic kids, looking at this boy while saying it.

He says stuff that doesn’t fit in with what the others are saying, he’s not conversing with them, but just throwing non sequiturs out there.

The “gains” his mom describes are typical of other spectrum kids would “gain” in the same time period, they aren’t startling or “proof” the chelation is creating his gains.

He looks exactly like a PDD-nos kid. I would guess that his diagnosis is and was PDD-nos, though, we’d have to ask mom if he got an autistic disorder diagnosis in order to get services.

A lurker, do you like the idea of this kid getting IV chelation?
Michael J. Dochniak
April 18th, 2007
16:29:00

Prometheus wrote:

“In short, I will ‘complain’ that there is no data to support your assertions. In fact, there arenâ€™t even any good anecdotes, if your article is an indication of the available information”

Comment:

The http://www.autismdoc.org article has good anecdotes in my opinion. For example, how IgE mediated reaction antibodies and associated mast cells affect the expression of neuron growth factor (NGF) and prenatal/neonatal development (i.e. allergy induced autism). What’s wrong with that Prometheus?
Brian Deer
April 18th, 2007
17:42:22

I see the autism omnibus claimants’ lawyers are unable to find a second and third test case.

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/.....%20PSC.pdf

That figures. They only have something like six thousand allegations of vaccine injury to pick from. Finding three that could weather the light of day must be a real sweat.

In the UK MMR action, they had 1,600, and couldn’t find four where the specific facts of the childrens’ cases stood up to five minutes’ scrutiny.
A lurker
April 18th, 2007
18:17:46

B lurker, I admit I could not hear everything because my very own auties were having a hootenanny in the neighboring room. They raise quite a ruckus given the right stimulus.

Regarding the chelation: if there was clinical evidence of metal poisoning and substantial diagnostics that illustrated the metabolic consequences of such metal poisoning, then it might be something to consider.

You gotta wonder though. If there were sufficient impairment of the detoxification systems such that metals accumulated in the first place then what is going to happen when the chelated forms are dumped enmasse into serum? And if “detox” is an issue how do you craft a treatment plan to avoid further accumulation?

Not expert in this area, but I believe most of the chelators are nephro/hepatoxic in their own right.

A cell is a pretty sensitive electromagnetic domain, what are the consequences of pulling out all those ions in such a non natural manner?

Anyway, obviously the people conducting the procedure are quacks. If I caught someone starting a fucking drip on one of my kids without proper procedures I would go apeshit.
B lurker
April 18th, 2007
20:21:53

As far as I can tell, up until now in the United States, there is no evidence of even ONE autistic child being heavy metal poisoned. What we have are extremely misleading mail order lab reports that tell parents that their kids are heavy metal toxic when in fact the children are not. We can predict almost surely this boy’s urine is being tested by a mail order lab, probably Doctors Data.

I think the word hoax fits very well here.
C lurker
April 18th, 2007
21:10:40

“What we have are extremely misleading mail order lab reports that tell parents that their kids are heavy metal toxic when in fact the children are not.”

The labs are apparently pretty careful (if not thought complicit by some). The reports do not show kids as “heavy metal toxic”. They show kids as green, yellow, and red (within reference range, elevated, and very elevated), which is then immediately invalidated by disclaimer:

“Reference ranges are representative of a healthy population under non-challenge or nonÂprovoked conditions.”

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if the test followed provocation, then the reference range used and “results” are worthless and don’t apply.

It’s whoever is interpreting these worthless results and convincing people that they mean kids are “heavy metal toxic”, when the reports themselves make no such claim (or case for that matter), that are doing the misleading.
A lurker
April 18th, 2007
21:26:26

“As far as I can tell, up until now in the United States, there is no evidence of even ONE autistic child being heavy metal poisoned. What we have are extremely misleading mail order lab reports that tell parents that their kids are heavy metal toxic when in fact the children are not. We can predict almost surely this boyâ€™s urine is being tested by a mail order lab, probably Doctors Data.

I think the word hoax fits very well here.”

Hold on a second, that seems quite an extreme generalization.

I am not suggesting they all afflicted qualify as autistic, but lead poisoning is widespread, particularly in impoverished urban areas.

I do believe I recall old research establishing atypically high (=>2sd) lead serum in autistics vs non-autistics.

Heavy metal toxicity is a real medical condition, whether it is applicable to the apparent functional deficits of these children or not.

If an infant or toddler were afflicted with heavy metal toxicity there would likely be profound developmental impairments.

C Lurker, that is kind of obvious is it not? Is someone actually comparing metal excretion while undergoing chelation to the exrection profiles presented by the general population?
A lurker
April 18th, 2007
21:32:05

Actually a cursory search yields a thirty year old study stating that “psychotic” children were 2sd above mean of controls for serum lead. I think this is the one I recalled. There are other hits as well, but I am not sufficiently motivated to expend the energy in perusal.
B lurker
April 18th, 2007
22:06:52

A lurker said:
“I am not suggesting they all afflicted qualify as autistic, but lead poisoning is widespread, particularly in impoverished urban areas.”

Wrong. There is not a widespread problem with lead poisoning in inner cities today. I see you don’t want to support your statement with data now.

The parents using these mail order labs are not even reporting high lead in most of their kids.

Besides the word hoax, scam is also appropriate here. Here’s an easy representation of what we see in autism in the US.
DAN!+ DDI labs = lucrative scam

Federal level investigation into this fraud/hoax/scam would be very appropriate.
A lurker
April 18th, 2007
22:29:29

Lead is an issue anywhere there are old residential structures with peeling paint within which reside infants who place things in their mouthes.

It is too starved an argument for my sword frankly. Google lead poisoning prevalence.

The actual point:

Heavy metal toxicity is a real medical phenomenon given sufficient exposure
An infant or toddler with sufficient exposure to develop metal toxicity would almost certainly manifest significant developmental impairments
Given the famously vague criteria of DSM such a child would likely qualify as autistic
Stating that there is no evidence of metal toxicity as an underlying pathology in a patient presenting with autism is therefore dissembling at best.

You jump from a reasonable, supportable statement to an unsupportable generalization which defies common sense; presumably to cater to your bias. Your apparent cognition is the inverse of that of the mercury milita.

Who is making the fortune is this giant lucrative scam that you are promulgating (in a rather paranoid sounding manner I might add) DANs? DDI?.

A federal investigation is needed? Why? Exactly who are you trying to protect with your evocation of the nanny state? Within the medical profession there are methods to deal with those whose conduct is malpractice. I don’t see anything else required.
Kev
April 20th, 2007
08:03:36

“A federal investigation is needed? Why? Exactly who are you trying to protect with your evocation of the nanny state? Within the medical profession there are methods to deal with those whose conduct is malpractice. I donâ€™t see anything else required.”

And outside the confines of the medical profession? Clearly a lot of the people practising the DAN! protocol – and all the other assorted quackery – are not medical doctors. I have heard of homeopaths practising chelation.

Who regulates these people?
Lucas McCarty
April 20th, 2007
15:34:13

That’s their problem. They can’t make any moral arguement for mainstream medicine or ‘big pharma’ being brought to scrutiny without it equally applying to the quacks selling chelation as Autism treatment.
Phil
April 20th, 2007
22:52:12

Who regulates these people?

In the US - I don’t think anyone does. That’s their idea of freedom.

Pffft!
Junior
April 21st, 2007
14:08:06

Although I am no fan of IV chelation therapy for autism, I feel compelled to clear up some misconceptions expressed in Kevinâ€™s blog and in the comments section about peripheral IV insertion. I have been a nurse since the mid 1980â€™s and have started countless IVâ€™s.

First of all, although gloves should be used for IV insertion as part of Universal Precautions relating to all body fluids, sterile gloves are not used. The insertion site itself (where the needle actually punctures the skin) should be as sterile as possible, and a sterile covering for the insertion site is recommended, however the procedure does not require sterile gloves or other components of sterile technique. Wearing gloves during these procedures protects the health care worker from potential pathogens in the patientâ€™s blood. Hand washing before and after the procedures protects the patient from pathogens. Protection from pathogens is also provided by cleansing the insertion site with alcohol and/or Betadine.

Medical facilities typically have Procedure Manuals outlining the protocol required for all medical procedures. I have located a couple of examples of these protocols for peripheral IV insertion online:

http://www.sh.lsuhsc.edu/polic.....g/I-49.pdf
5. Dons clean gloves*, selects appropriate site, applies tourniquet, and
preps site with alcohol.
NOTE: Do not palpate site after skin has been cleansed with antiseptic.
(*clean gloves are not sterile)

http://www.guideline.gov/summa.....8;nbr=4666
d. Wash hands: Good hand hygiene and standard precautions are used for insertion and IV maintenance; a new pair of disposable nonsterile gloves may be used in conjunction with a “no-touch” technique for peripheral IV insertion. With “no-touch” technique, the planned IV insertion site is not palpated after skin cleansing, unless sterile gloves are worn. Wash hands before and after IV catheter insertion and dressing change (O’Grady et al., 2002).

Obviously the nurse in the video is not wearing gloves at all which is actually not that surprising to me considering he is an older nurse. When I first learned how to start IVâ€™s and draw blood we did not wear gloves. The recommendation to wear gloves during these kinds of procedures came with the advent of AIDS and Universal Precautions (now called Standard Precautions) in1985. Reference: http://www.corexcel.com/html/b.....2.ceus.htm

Many nurses, myself included, who learned how to access veins before the advent of Universal Precautions found it difficult to adjust to using gloves. This is because the â€œfeelâ€ of a vein, the bounciness and size is very important in deciding whether or not it would hold a needle or IV catheter. Also, many times veins are not visible, but on ly felt under the skin. Feeling a vein with a bare finger, vs. feeling it through a glove is very different. I did adjust to wearing gloves, although generally I would feel for a vein with a bare finger and then don gloves and clean the insertion site.

If you watch the video, you will see the nurse swab the index finger, middle finger, and thumb of his right hand before he inserts the angiocath (IV catheter). This technique offers the nurse no protection if there is leakage of blood from the catheter or insertion site, but it may offer as much protection to the patient from potential pathogens as clean gloves do. Consider that unsterile gloves are typically kept at the patientâ€™s bedside in an open container, and no recommendations are given for using an antiseptic on the gloves before venous access procedures.

I also want to address the size of the venous access device. Although my eye sight is not as good as it used to be, it did not appear to me that the IV catheter used was a butterfly as I didnâ€™t see any â€œwingsâ€ on it. IV catheters are color coded according to size, and these colors are standardized across brands. It looked to me like the IV catheter that was used in the video was pink which would make it a 20 gauge. Reference: http://www.umecopr.com/pages/m.....eters.html

Lastly, I just donâ€™t even know what to say about the garlic and vinegar, surely they didnâ€™t mean they are giving that IV! Thatâ€™s craziness!
Junior
April 21st, 2007
14:11:15

I also need to add that the nurse in the video should have worn gloves, at least for his own protection.
Ms. Clark
April 21st, 2007
19:47:19

Junior, The person who told Kev about the dangers of tiny-needles (and no gloves) said: “While almost everyone can start an IV with this tiny needle, itâ€™s dangerous to use for chelation because if patients get into trouble you want a large bore needle inserted in case you need to administer drugs and fluids for treatment or god forbid, resuscitation.”

In your opinion would a 20 guage needle be “large bore” enough to administer drugs and fluids for treatment in an emergency?

If the child is being chelated because misleading lab tests told the mom that the child is “heavy metal toxic” then it’s still patently wrong what they are doing. The doctor (not a pediatrician, not a toxicologist) is smart enough to know that the child doesn’t need to be chelated based on a mail order lab test result, but he’s making money off of chelation so he chelates kids, with the help of Nurse Nick, it would appear. If he gets hurt in any way by this, even if his veins are getting damaged from the weekly chelation (making it harder for Nick to get a vein each time)... it’s abuse. Telling the kid that he’s got all these bad metals in him when it’s not true is abuse, in my opinion. It’s all about making mom feel like she’s a hero and doing all she can do undo the damage done by the evil CDC et al. And the mom was promoting chelation by putting this video out there, encouraging others to do IV chelation in the process.

I still think they are claiming they put the vinegar and garlic in him with the IV fluid. To get rid of imaginary lead and aluminum.
Kassiane
April 22nd, 2007
04:42:04

And…erm…not everyone can start a butterfly (or a 20 gague, one size up) on anyone.

I am 24. I am of reasonable height and weight-that is, larger than most children being subjected to this horrendous procedure.

AND. I have yet to find someone who can start an IV on me first shot. There’s been lots of opportunities to try, between dehydration (diabetes insipidus…when you’re sick even 2 gallons won’t do), migraine treatment, seizure precaution…the “best of the best” in one epilepsy center took three tries.

Anyone can do it, huh?

Does this kid have bigger veins than I do somehow? Or is it more likely that mom is playing fast and loose with his safety while praying at the alter of Normal?
Junior
April 22nd, 2007
15:39:16

I do think a 20 gauge would be okay in the case of a potential emergency. 20 gauge IVâ€™s are what we typically started on the average adult patient that was in the hospital. 18 gaugeâ€™s were started on patients that needed blood or who were going to surgery, but as Kassiane points out, sometimes you start the size IV that the patientâ€™s veins will support. For a child a 20 gauge is actually a large IV, and a 22 gauge would be commonly used as well.

Consider this passage from a Nursing 2000 journal article titled: â€œTips and tricks for pediatric I.V. insertionâ€ http://findarticles.com/p/arti.....i_n8915169

â€œWhat size device should I use?
Choose the smallest-gauge catheter (24 or 22) in the shortest length to allow hemodilution of infusates by blood flow around the catheter. In neonates, administer I.V. fluids and medications, blood, and blood products via a 24-gauge I.V. device. In older children, a 24- or 22-gauge catheter works without increasing the risk of hemolysis. â€œ

Although, I donâ€™t have a problem with how the IV was started or the size of the IV, there are lots of things I do have a problem with in this video from a nursing perspective.

1.All pediatric medicines and IV fluids should be on IV pumps. This protects the child from accidental fluid overload and more precisely regulates how the infusion rate of medications. If the IV is not on an infusion pump then microdrip IV tubing and/or a soluset (aka a solutrol or volutrol) is used. These also protect the child from fluid overload and allow for more precise calculation of drip rate. Children will typically receive a slower IV rate than adults and less volume for the obvious reason that they are much smaller. http://www.accd.edu/sac/nursing/math/peds2.html
Neither a pump, nor a microdrip, nor a soluset, were used in this situation.

2.I have concerns about the amount of fluid given over this 2 hour and 10-15 minute period. It is hard for me to tell the exact sizes of the IV bags used from the video. There are 3 bags given, 2 of them look to be in the 50-100 cc range. I assume the 2 smaller bags are the glutathione and the â€œgarlic and vinegarâ€. The third bag is much larger and the solution is yellow so I assume it is the DMPS. At the time in the video that this bag is shown, it looks to me like there is about 300 cc of fluid in that bag. Although, I must say I may be completely off since it is hard to tell from a video. I assume that the child received all this fluid since at the end of the video there are 3 IV lines and it is obvious that the IV bags are empty. My estimate then, and I want to repeat that I may be way off here, is that this child received 400 cc (possibly more since Iâ€™m not sure at what point in the infusion the yellow IV bag was shown) of IV fluid in 2 hours, which seems like a lot to me. To be honest, Iâ€™m not sure if it would be a problem or not in a healthy child.

3.It also concerns me that none of the IV bags appear to have labels on them that say what medications have been added, although itâ€™s possible they are labeled on the back and I just canâ€™t see it in the video. If there arenâ€™t any labels this scares me for a couple of reasons. First, it means that these bags were mixed in the clinic, because no pharmacist would mix an IV bag without putting a label on it. I just wonder what kind of standards are used for mixing these bags. Secondly, all nurses have a fear of making a medication error and take all precautions possible to prevent errors. It is taught in nursing school, and it is on licensing exams, that all medications are labeled. I assume that this child is not the only patient in the clinic receiving medications, and I also assume that there are also adult patients there after looking at this doctorâ€™s website: http://hamptonsmedicalspa.com/default.aspx I further assume that all patients donâ€™t require the same dose of the medications this child was given. Thus it concerns me that errors might be made by giving a patient the wrong medication when bags are not labeled. Again, it is very possible the bags were labeled and I just couldnâ€™t see it.

4.I looked for some infusion protocols for IV DMPS but was unable to find any. I have no idea what the potential complications might be for this type of infusion. I did find a protocol for giving CaEDTA which I thought was interesting if you compare it to the procedure that was described in the case where the child died when he received IV push EDTA. http://www.mainehealth.org/wor.....eline3.pdf I especially found it interesting that this treatment guideline says to give the medication over 24 hours, and that there should be continuous cardiac monitoring during the infusion.

5.This leads me to my final concern. I assume this clinic, and perhaps most IV chelation clinics are stand alone clinics not connected to a hospital. I would be concerned about the emergency equipment they have in the clinic, the number of personnel they have who are trained to deal with emergency situations, and the transit time to a hospital if that was required. There should be a crash cart in the clinic with a cardiac monitor and defibrillator, as well as emergency medications, and emergency equipment such as endotracheal tubes, and oxygen. Staff should be trained in PALS, including the physician. I would wonder if a doctor who has been trained in adult medicine has ever been involved in a pediatric resuscitation effort, much less directed such an effort.