David Kirby posts one of what he considers to be the key questions:
There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic. Yet U.S. autism rates have gone from about 1-in-5000 in the 1980s to 1-in-166 today. But if autism is purely genetic (without an environmental “trigger”) and has always been prevalent at the same constant rate, then where are the 1-in-166 autistic 25-year-olds (those born in 1980)? Where are the 1-in-166 autistic 55-year-olds? Why can’t we find them?
NB: I don’t think autism is solely genetic. I think all genuine autistics have a genetic predisposition but I also think that for some, an environmental trigger event could be required. That trigger though is definitely not vaccines.
I don’t have an easy answer to this one – because data collection on autism is historically very bad its difficult to even verify Kirby’s figures. I do have a few suggestions for him though.
First, please quotes your sources when you make assertions like this. I’ve already shown you to be factually wrong on figures before. Forgive me if I don’t take everything you say at face value.
Secondly, as you probably well know, the diagnostic criteria for ASD vastly altered in the 9o’s to include a wide variety of PDD’s including for example, Aspergers Syndrome. I don’t have any figures to hand to state what the exact before/exact after was but common sense dictates that a large part of this so-called ‘epidemic’ is down to this. There would also seem to be at least one book thatdoes have the figures and they deduce the same as me. I’ll get a hold of that as soon as I can.
Thirdly, detection methods and centres of detection have vastly bettered and increased respectively.
I know it is not a very popular view, but it is possible that the dramatic increase of children with autism world-wide is due to better diagnosis, better awareness, changing diagnosis, and the growth of services. When I started in this field 20 years ago, there were only about 3 centres in the whole of the UK where one could go to get one’s child diagnosed with autism, from a specialist. Today, there are many clinics in every town that can provide this service.
Another question for Kirby: If autism is mercury poisoning why is it that boys make up three quarters of all autistics? Are we to believe Thimerosal is selective?
As a point of note to sensationalist reporters turned writers – apply Occams Razor first: look for what is most likely based on the facts at hand. If the facts can’t account for everything, then perform an investigation. Your basic error is that you would seem to have skipped the first stage of that process.
Left Brain Right Brain 
If the higher incidence of autism is predominately due to many more cases being diagnosed (because of more diagnostic centres now than 20 years ago) then doctors and educationalists would have at least seen the great numbers of autistic kids (or Aspergers,PDD) back then…or were they all at home? Where are they now? Why is it that carers in all occupational arenas are saying these developmentally delayed or developmentally challenged kids are just so common now and so rare before. This is regardless of any diagnosis…these comments apply to the children they face, the children who have “odd” and distinctive behavioural problems, whether or not they have a diagnosis. I have worked as a child-care worker and in the medical system and did not meet any children who ran about flapping their hands and running into walls, I had never come across so many kids with allergy problems either. The whole issue certainly warrants greater funding and research and more than that…honesty which is a bit difficult these days when governments align themselves to the Pharmaceutical Giants and in a world where the mighty dollar has greater worth than defenceless babies. Kirby’s book is insightful and worth buying – the only pity is that the readers will probably be the parents and some of the fewer excellent doctors/carers rather than those in positions of power who could make a mighty difference in the world.
Hmm. Its difficult to disagree with you per se Suzie. I’m not suggesting I have all the answers here – or even any of them. What I *am* saying is that there are lot of assumptions being made here by David Kirby – the majority of which as you say, warrant further investigation.
Where does this figure of 1 in 166 come from? What is it based on? ASD? Kanners autism? Aspergers? None of the above? There are basic questions about the quality (and quantity) of the data that mean at the moment using these kind of statistics is dangerous. Even more dangerous is the foolhardy practice of using phrases like ‘autism epidemic’ or ‘autism tsunami’ whicha lot of so-called autism advocates indulge in.
“and in a world where the mighty dollar has greater worth than defenceless babies. Kirby’s book is insightful and worth buying”
That, I’m afraid, I must take issue with. That accusation can be levelled just as equally at misinformed parents who pay thousands of pounds (or dollars/yen/euros) for ‘therpay’ like chelation.
Kirby’s book is far from insightful. He makes several factual errors, which he’s repeated in statements online and he tells one side of what is far from a straight forward story. These are the actions of a hack interested in your money, not a responsible journalist.
“Assumptions” ? or is it that David Kirby, in his telling the story of the struggle ( for it has been an enormous struggle to even ascertain facts about what exactly IS in vaccines and testing procedures re: safety for infants etc.) of the Mercury Moms and the other numerous groups (consisting of parents) quite possibly came to see the argument as having more weight on the parent’s side. Fundamentally, the book is basically the story of a body of people and their right to know precisely what it means to give one’s children vaccinations. It also covers the struggle to uncover the facts regarding thimerosal and its safety…which begs the question…shouldn’t parents in a free society who supposedly have CHOICE, be told EXACTLY if there is any danger at all regarding dosage etc. And within the fundamental telling of this story, it just so happens that the people who are doing the struggling, the “unearthing” of evidence/testing/concealed facts/inuendo are parents of damaged children, which they believe has occurred through vaccination of their children.
If you think the book is too one-sided, good. I think it is pretty terrific that someone like David Kirby (and the parents for that matter) has the courage to put himself on the line, because by supporting their view, it may encourage people to think first before they blindly vaccinate. I am not an anti-vaccination campaigner, however, I am someone who is reasonably health-conscious and find it very hard to accept what is actually in these vaccinations in particular the amount of mercury.
Robyn Cosford, the convenor of The Mind of The Child conference a few years ago was able to put it so succinctly just exactly what happens to an infant’s immune system when it is given any of the jabs. It’s actually pretty ghastly and we are certainly giving our children too many vaccinations at too young an age.
Regarding the 1 in 166…I believe it is a figure based on ALL of the autism spectrum, for all diagnosed children have their share of challenges regardless of whether they are severe autistic or mildly so. I believe the Australian Autism Association has said 1 in 100 (I read recently). These figures are very high. I do not think it is “dangerous” to quote these statistics, I think it is important to be alerted to the fact that statistics HAVE risen and for goodness sake, we need to try to work out how to lower them. If it means, taking mercury out of the vaccinations and giving less vaccinations, great.
I think the government also has to start thinking about how families can be reimbursed some of their costs, as some of these kids do become quite normal with many interventions and therefore save the government money down the track when these kids can live independently rather than being institutionalised. Some of these parents give up so much for their children, I have the greatest respect for them. Your comment on “misinformed parents…paying thousands of dollars for therapy like chelation” is somewhat naively insulting, I’m sorry to say. And it clearly indicates you are not a parent of a child whom you love desperately and who has been damaged, for if you were, you would try ALL or many therapies and if one or a few of these showed any (or great) improvement, you would spend the required amount of cash to continue the therapy. I have seen numerous children who have lost many of their autistic “traits” through a gluten, dairy and yeast free diet (augmented with biomedical supplementations). And, if these children are high in metals, as indeed they seem to be because their immune system and natural chelating system has been injured, then chelating may be a viable therapy to get back a bit more “normal” behaviour. We’re talking here about parents who have to live with a very difficult set of symptoms, I mean life is not life without quality is it? If chelating meant a bit more quality…wouldn’t you follow the path? These parents and their dogged push towards having thimerosal taken out of the vaccines was a mighty victory as their lives were not easy to start with and the extra energy to devote to this issue would have been enormous. Why in any case would it have been taken out IF it were perfectly safe?
Furthermore, I disagree with you wholeheartedly, the book IS insightful simply because so many people are still not informed and need to be. And that he is interested in just money…did we say this about the last Harry Potter novel? No, we said, “Great, I want to read it”. Evidence of Harm cost about the same as Harry Potter. OK, one is fiction, the other non-fiction. But a book is a book is a book. If you don’t want to read it, don’t. But don’t negate its worth just because its not your cup of tea.
Frankly the only thing I found is that the book can be a bit boring at times with all the extraneous detail, but I still ploughed through these bits to get to the paragraphs where there was material of very considerable worth. I think you hit the nail on the head by saying, “what is far from a straight forward story”. Personally, I would like to read a “come-back” version of the other side of the argument but something tells me it would not be nearly as compelling coming from the rich multicorporates which have incurred no damage, except that perhaps profits may be lowered if people choose not to vaccinate for fear of damage.
I was told tonight that this is blogging. So, that makes me a big fat blog! I’m afraid I have too much personal experience and years of studying the whole confused gammut of information that I’m not an easy person to argue with. I am a mother of a mildly autistic 6 year old who has almost recovered (though she still has some delays such as “slow” in searching to get her words out…certainly her understanding is really good. It all happened after the MMR when our child started to go into a world of her own losing all her language (she was actually forward for her age before this time) only retaining Mamma & Dada. As a result, she has had to learn it all again. She also got this strange bowel disorder after the MMR and would scream piercingly at night with great pain. Doctors are interesting to say the least, for none of them knew very much about autism. We had to find all the info ourselves and then I found a great paediatrician in Sydney (Dr. Antony Underwood) who was somewhat alternative and open-minded. My daughter was put on a very strict diet (GFCF), took supplements, had intensive therapy (not ABA) and the result is a gorgeous loveable albeit mildly delayed at this point, little girl who continues to grow and develop. Our next point of call is possible chelation for I know many kids who have improved remarkably after this procedure, some of the results are very clear. We’re hoping it will be the therapy to take our daughter to full recovery. So, what David Kirby’s book is addressing is a reality we would never have believed would enter our lives, but it did. Our 2 much older children enountered no problems but they also had less vaccinations and perhaps they were lucky to be immunologically stronger. I can honestly say up until a year or so ago we had never worked so hard in our lives, the struggle was endless, the grief enormous. But I must also say..we are lucky compared to others, as our daughter was not severe and has responded to therapy, now nearly recovered. Those poor parents who have to lock their children in the house, who have locks on their fridges, who have no time to give their other children and no real life anymore as people outside being parents, my heart goes out to them. I can only say how wonderful it is that these parents were able to find a journalist to represent their issues.
Jesus Christ Suzie – thats a bleedin’ novel right there!
You’re not blogging – you’re killing my blog ;o)
OK. I’m going to try and answer your points as best I can given that you last comment was _very_ long.
First Kirby: He claims (online) that he is impartial and yet as you have obviously spotted he most certainly isn’t. You may or may not appreciate the significance of the fact that when he bought the domain evidenceofharm.com a representative of Safeminds was listed as one of the contacts. A journalist who can only write up one side of any story is really not worth reading. His story might be impassioned, it might be well written but it is ultimately one sided and inaccurate.
Should parents be told about dangers? My GP is pretty clear on the issues but I checked them out anyway as I used to think exactly as you do. Turns out he was right.
I’ve got no problem with more research. I’d like to see much more done as the figures are pretty sparse. What I do have issues with are its misrepresentation by others.
Your take on that 1 in 166 figure is interesting. Maybe you might want to have a read of this (scroll down to the ‘ Where are these 1 in 166 autistics?’ entry). It shows exactly how statistics are manipulated. The 1 in 166 figure is, as I understand it, only representative of autistics in California – and even then its wrongly interpreted. Extrapolating that same figure across the entire world is ridiculous.
I strongly object to your blithely writing the books impact off as similar to a Harry Potter novel. please read this to get an idea of why so many parents object to Kirby’s book.
I don’t really know what to say to your last paragraph. I get very tired of hearing the words ‘autism’ and ‘grief’ used together but not as tired as autistics must get of it. I also am very saddened to hear you say you’ll be chelating your daughter (she’s a year older than my Megan) as that process sounds very very dangerous to me. Before you go down that path I’d urge you to have a read of this post I made about Chelation. It really is not a good thing to put anyone through without need. Least of all a small child.
You seem to be very much focused on the best course of action for the parents. Thats your right. Personally I wouldn’t ever think of making my kids feel like they were the cause of sadness – mainly as they’re not. I don’t care what they are as long as they’re happy. I’m very proud of them and who they are – 1 NT and 1 autistic. If my imminent arrival is autistic then thats fine. If they’re not, thats fine too. There are always things in life that are a struggle – why waste time chasing something thats unproven, more than likely untrue and the treatment for which is so very dangerous? Personally I’d rather spend my time with valid interventions that are proven to be effective as they actually do address the needs of my daughter and they don’t run the risk of killing her.
Hi again. This will be my last comment as I’m meant to be working and as interesting as it is being a blog, it takes too much time. Many thanks for your “have a read of this” bits. I knew about the chelation stuff, that’s why I have not done it til now and am still not certain as we are meeting with the paeiatrician in June to discuss other things as well. Regarding upset parents…well, there will always be upset people who think people shouldn’t say this or that. I don’t feel like that. I also believe that there is a large number of “late onset autistics” who presented with the gut problems etc and a lot of these kids have had great results with the GFCF diet. So, maybe it is these kids, not all autistic kids who have mercury problems.
Regarding your comment “Personally I wouldn’t ever think of making my kids feel like they were the cause of sadness”…I don’t believe I made my child feel that at all – she is loved beyond compare. And it was not her that I was telling…it was you. Honesty is not a bad thing – of course I felt grief when my typically developing child started to disappear into her own world, lose skills etc. It is a very scary place for them to be, she found it very frightening not to be able to simply “comprehend” at times. So, honestly speaking, it is better for her (in a typically developing world) to become as normal as we can help her to be – because she can’t always live by her own rules. However, many allowances will be (and are) made for her to live her own potential, whatever that may be…the same as for any of our other children. Anyway, all the best to you and yours.
Suzie, you truly have to do what you feel is right.
Unfortunately, a lot of people feel that *all* autistics, whether late onset (which they claim as mercury poisoning) or not should be ‘cured’. My experiences with autism don’t lead my down the belief that autism is a nightmare for anyone and yet for that belief I have been called names, been told to go fuck myself, been told I will suffer in Hell, been told that I am a negligent parent and a wide variety of other stuff – there’s even some guy on a different forum claiming I flit around the web making postings under assumed names!
I’m glad you and I were able to talk about this sensibly and politely. You’re welcome any time. You have to get your terminology right though – this website is a ‘blog’, as the person running the blog I am a ‘blogger’ and you as a respondent are a ‘commenter’. Take care ;o)