But then again, so is ‘love’.
Do you know what? I’m tired of fighting with people. I’m coming off the worst flu I’ve had for nearly 6 years, my wife’s had it, our kids have all had it and I’m physically, emotionally and motivationally drained.
All I wanted when I started this was to document my autistic daughters progress, make the odd little web development post here and there and stand up for what I believe is right. What I believe is right is that autistic people should be respected. I believe society should change to accommodate difference. In the same way that women are equal to men, people of different cultures and creeds are equal to the dominant population in whichever country you live in, senior citizens are as important as young people, homosexuality is as normal (whatever the hell that is) as heterosexuality – people with a different neurology *irrespective of its cause* are just as valid and deserving of rights, consideration and an equal voice as those of us with a typical neurology.
_Is that really so difficult to deal with?_
Autism is not a childhood condition. It first _occurs_ in childhood. Take a look around you. Read the reports. Study the science. Examineour history.
Look, I’ll give you this – its entirely possible autism could be caused by mercury. In some cases. But please try and _think_. All the Amish in the world don’t add up to an autism/vaccine epidemic. All the recovered children in JB’s PDF’s and Erik’s AVI’s don’t add up to a cure.
Why? What is it you think you are curing? If your child doesn’t smear, or headbutt or have constipation – does that mean they are not autistic? _No_. It means they’re not constipated or headbutting or smearing anymore. If thats your child then I offer you my sincere congratulations. I don’t want your child to be in pain any more than I want my child in pain. But I would urge you to be very careful – your child almost certainly still thinks and interacts in ways that are very different than you do. Would that be enough justification for you to carry on ‘curing’? If so, why?
Ginger presents the best argument of all. She says that if a child is likely to grow into an adult that cannot communicate their needs – especially when that person is in danger – then it is worth it to attempt a ‘cure’. And she certainly has a lot of very good evidence that autistic people are routinely abused.
I have no easy answer to this argument. When I read it, I’ll freely admit it, I want to remove everything that threatens my daughter. But is that right? In one way its absolutely right – every parent has a duty to keep their kids safe.
But, I agree with Susan Senator who said:
The “must eradicate” attitude drives parents to be nothing but nutritionists, behaviorists, and therapists, for their children. These parents, however motivated by doing their children good, end up spending most of their parenting time trying to subjugate aspects of their children.
No child – of any neurology – can be kept 100% safe unless you want to take them and wrap them up in cotton wool. Pre-empting Ginger, I think she’d say that this isn’t a case of wrapping them up but of giving them every chance to be independent enough to recognise danger and be able to do something about it. Certainly when I read some of what Amanda Baggs has had to endure at the hands of ‘carers’ my blood boils and my heart quails.
But. I believe that autism is not the cause of this misery. Attitude is. Institutionalised and abusive staff are. The non-recognition of autistic people as having a valid existence causes these attitudes to grow. When someone says ‘all autism is mercury poisoning’, that is essentially taking someones existence and traducing it as poison and invalidating it as viable. As can be seen from the links provided – thiomersal cannot be responsible for all cases of autism. Autism existed before thiomersal. Thats simply a fact. To deny it is not only bizarre it is akin to taking someone by the scruff of the neck and telling them that because they are ill, they are not fit to make decisions and thus abuse is legitamised and around and around we go.
I don’t expect anyone who believes autism is mercury poisoning to give up on their idea. What I am asking is that you can try and at least meet those of us on the ‘other side’ halfway. Try and understand that painting everyone with one brush is tantamount to little more than bigotry. I asked JB once to recant just one aspect of his belief – that all autism is mercury poisoning now and forever. I ask him again, with all respect. If you are an advocate for autism then please try and see that in this one respect you are wrong. All autism is _not_ caused by thiomersal. This isn’t a game. Nobody’s keeping score. I’m more than happy to entertain the possibility that for some children who have become autistic that there is an environmental trigger. If there is ever science that conclusively demonstrates a causative link I swear to you that I will be as vocal in going after the guilty as I am now in going after people like Rashid Buttar. As I say, what I ask in return is that you _see_ that you truly look at the world of autism beyond your child. Look without melodrama and look without preconception. I am deathly afraid that one of the things you are doing is making the world for autistic people less safe. You’ve seen some of the things that a certain Rescue Angel of our mutual acquaintance has written here. JB himself expressed unease at what this person had said. Do you think that such a person is interested in advocating _for_ autistics?
Some people think that if you can communicate you cease to be autistic. Again, I see that as a willful and purposeful denigration of people who’s crime seems to be that they can communicate – the punishment is excommunication from who they are. Invalidated people. And for what? Why would anyone think such a thing? As Tolkein said: “what can we do against such reckless hate?”.
At the core of who I am is a belief in personal responsibility. I take responsibility for who I am and what I do. I believe its the cornerstone of what makes us free people. I will do everything I can to ensure that my kids all have that same belief. We have a duty to our society as well as our children. And society has a duty to us and them. Everything in life works better when its driven by reciprocality. I say society must change for the good of all our children _and_ adults as well. I reciprocate by doing my best to raise self-aware, self-confident children to adulthood. I cannot do that if who they are is withdrawn from them on the basis of political need. I don’t try and stop you from curing (if thats the word you choose to use) your kids. All I ask in return is that you stop insulting mine. If you are right and thiomersal causes autism then I will fight beside you. Will you fight beside me if I ask you to advocate _for_ autistics, instead of _against_ autism? Can you turn some of that energy and anger I see in chatrooms and blogs directed into action to enhance the lives of adult autistics? Can you do it without talking about mercury?
I’m not asking you to change your beliefs. We both know you don’t agree with mine and I don’t agree with yours. But there should be lots we can agree on. Can we?
Left Brain Right Brain 
I totally agree with this — and I have a 10-year-old son with autism.
Since his diagnosis at 3 years old, I have made a deliberate decision to treat the condition, not cure it. I cannot waste time wondering how we got here, why this happened and demand a cure. I must help Harry now. He must learn to speak, to communicate, to exist in a society unforgiving of his eccentricities.
I have never condemned a family for trying what they thought was necessary to help an autistic child. But I have often wondered the toll their driven “cure” efforts have take on the kids who seem to them to be broken, not simply accepted.
In any event, thank you for this. I look forward to more posts on your child! 🙂
Sneadwoman… thank you for commenting on the toll of cure efforts on children. I was subjected to cure efforts as a child (chlorpromazine). I am an autistic adult, very able and active in my field (applied educational psychology, specialising in autistic difficulties in adult life); I am also the loved and loving dad of a nearly-seven-year old Aspie lady, who is the only reason I would wish to remain alive in the unforgiving society of which you speak. I personally have never wished that my daughter was typical of most kids her age, and to be honest I had no difficulties at all with the notion that she (like her mum and myself) would also be a spectrumite.
Regarding your boy, you mention that “he must learn to speak, to communicate…” in that society; if I may be so bold, could I suggest maybe an emphasis on communication by a means suitable for him, rather than straight-out speaking? Reason for this is that it may be too much to ask of him all at once, whereas – if his communication by alternative means’ can be helped – he may actually decide to venture into speaking anyway (I read somewhere of studies which demonstrated that, once alternative communication methods had been used, many autistic children eventually ended up speaking).
Even this I wouldn’t say was treating a condition: rather, I’d see it as supporting development in areas where developmental opportunities exist (I don’t espouse “clinical” psychological notions, and I find that the whole autism thing seems to be better understood in terms usually reserved for occupational psychologists… such as the fit between the child and his/her environment, the demand characteristics of functioning in a particular socio-physical environment, and so on). In a sense, anything you do to promote development of ability/skill (in, for example, communication) would (in non-clinical parlance) be an act of trying to provide developmental/educational support for those skills. Sounds nicer than “treatment”, I think. Sound more natural, less clinical, too.
As you say, now is a good time to help in this development of skills, and – rather than wasting that time demanding cures – it would be better (I reckon, on the basis of my training) if a change of emphasis from “treatment” to “developmental support” were to happen. All the best in finding useful, sensible and sensitive developmental support activities for Harry and for yourself (parents and children develop together, I find, as they learn from each other).
Thank you for having been the first to respond supportingly to Kev’s impassioned plea above: a plea which I second.
I wouldn’t speak for Kevin (in fact, I’m learning that I can’t even really speak for Nat, my autistic son, but rather, I need to find better ways to listen to him). But I don’t think that Kevin’s position is tantamount to letting a kid with a broken leg go without crutches. Kevin has stated that he wants to help his child make all the progress she can make, but that is different from wanting to cure her of autism, from seeing the autism as a scourge. The difficulties arising from autism are for those around her to deal with. It is no crime giving a child the tools that will give her an easier life, but it is a two-way street; any relationship is: it is also up to the parents/the world to learn from different people how to change and accommodate to bring them to the table.
Helping a physically disabled child move better is a good analogy here, because the important thing to remember is that the leg might be broken but the child is otherwise a whole person, with a unique perspective (perhaps further deepened by the experience of the broken leg and by how the doctor tended to it). The real problem is the discrimination that occurs, the lack of accommodation that occurs worldwide when someone has a difference, including a neurological one. Bottom line for me is, I think that we need to learn from our different children as much as they need to learn from us.
Well said, Susan.
Thank you Kev for your reasonable words. I think we can all do better when it comes to understanding both sides of the issue. Sue noted that the tone of my recent comments was more civil, I didn’t realize that I had been uncivil but I recognize that I am less than patient when it comes to the mercury issue. I do not enjoy the bickering and name calling and it was never my intent to contribute to that in any way. If my comments are ever unwelcome here please feel free to say so and I will voluntarily abstain from posting.
I know that most of the mercury parents truly believe that mercury is the major cause of autism and I know they are doing what they feel is the right thing. I also know they have a hard time understanding how their actions can be damaging to all people with autism including their own children, or I’m certain they would exercise a little more caution and judgment. Shouting “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore” feels good at the moment but in the long run it’s just noise in the wind. Publishing full page ads in the NYT may feel like advocating but in the long run it’s money out the window. Publicity stunts don’t advance research, they hinder it. Congratulations. The dead parrot now has something to line the bottom of the cage.
Thanks, Kevin, for your well-thought posts.
Am I the only one to notice that the supporters of the autism hypothesis always state their position with unwavering certainty?
“No autism in China in 1999”
“fixing mercury poisoning is just as easy as fixing the fracture”
“the autistic child becomes tougher to cure the longer the mercury remains in him”
It’s nice to recite these things as facts. It would be even nicer if you could provide a list of references to support your statements.
clone3g: “It’s nice to recite these things as facts. It would be even nicer if you could provide a list of references to support your statements.”
Indeed.
clone3g: “Am I the only one to notice that the supporters of the autism hypothesis always state their position with unwavering certainty?”
Indeed you are right in what you note. Science has its uncertainties (science has *never* dealt with certainties… even in mathematics, we always append the caveat: provided this limit (or whatever) exists); quackery has proof (which has never been subjected to scientific endeavour and not found lacking).
Hi Kev, I hope you and your family feel better soon.
In response to the argument about the importance of learning to recognize and protect oneself from danger: Autistic children, like other children, gradually develop more awareness of danger as they grow and mature. It just takes longer. We’re talking about a slower timeline for social and emotional development, not a complete lack of development.
I’m sure my parents had the same worries about me when I was a child. I was always darting off, climbing tall trees, running out in traffic, and so on. As a young adult, I didn’t have a good understanding of how to avoid potentially dangerous social situations.
But there are other ways of dealing with the safety issue that don’t involve treating an autistic child as if he or she is broken and must be fixed. For instance, a family can live in a quiet rural area during the child’s early years, where the child’s tendency to wander off and go exploring is much less dangerous than in a crowded urban area.
As you point out, autism has always existed. Our fast-paced, complex modern society does indeed make it harder in some ways for parents to keep autistic children safe (although it’s probably easier in other ways; I can imagine my autistic ancestors worrying about whether their kids had been eaten by wolves or bears when they wandered off). But we are an intelligent species, and we ought to be able to adjust to these social changes without finding it necessary to alter or eradicate millions of people.
This is a poem by the British poet, Gerard Manley Hopkins, who wrote in the 1880s. What he says, in all his work, is that the world is composed of tiny intriguing difference, and that in the subtle almost imperceptible differentiation between one thing and another, one person and another, lies the intrinsic glory of the rainbow world, created (he believed as he was a Jesuit priest) by a God who made every single thing and person special. Different. Amazing. Wonderful.
So why ‘cure’ it and remove the glory? Let’s just help enable it to shine.
I’m not a Roman Catholic. But I truly believe in his positivity. I also believe that he was autistic.
GLORY be to God for dappled things—
For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow;
For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim;
Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches’ wings;
Landscape plotted and pieced—fold, fallow, and plough;
And all trades, their gear and tackle and trim.
All things counter, original, spare, strange;
Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?)
With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim;
He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change:
Praise him.
From Robert Burn’s ballad, *Now Westlin’ Winds* (thanks to Dick Gaughan, a Scottish folk singer of very high skill and quality), Barbara’s theme can be continued… the celebration of difference:
“Thus every kind their pleasure find
The savage and the tender
Some social join and leagues combine
Some solitary wander”
I think people are just plain missing the point. The point is that while it’s desirable to do everything you can (within reason) to help your child develop appropriately, teaching your child that they are defective, poisoned, bad, screwed up, etc., is not good for your child, and it’s not good for autistic adults to be treated as if they are complete and utter morons who can’t possibly speak for themselves, make decisions for themselves, or otherwise function in society, when it’s clear that most autistic adults do function.
What’s so hard to understand? A person is more than their symptoms, and their worth and value as human beings is greater than the sum of their behavior.
Wow, radical thinking, I know…
I find it deeply disturbing that the Mercury Brigade accuse other people of being single-minded and obtuse, when a simple sentiment like, “It’s bad for children and others to treat them as if they are defective, worthless, and otherwise bad” is not understood.
bonni: “… teaching your child that they are defective, poisoned, bad, screwed up, etc., is not good for your child, and it’s not good for autistic adults to be treated as if they are complete and utter morons who can’t possibly speak for themselves, make decisions for themselves, or otherwise function in society, when it’s clear that most autistic adults do function.”
Absolutely.
Self-esteem is a huge factor for positive change. If a child is denied that, then it does impact badly on the psychosocial development of the child. Developmental issues which do not cause children to become autistic but can complicate the picture somewhat can result from not being allowed to feel good about oneself.
I’d take them a little more seriously if the wolloped him though.
I’m certain that not all “believers” in the Mercury Movement are raving hatemongers who spew verbal abuse at all and sundry, but when they’re willing to let someone like that speak for them, on their behalf, representing them, that says something about them right there. The movement may or may not be able to support its beliefs, but the fact that they’re happy to have hate and insults be their calling card speaks volumes.
bonni: “but the fact that they’re happy to have hate and insults be their calling card speaks volumes.”
Sadly, yes, it does.
But the racket it makes is bloody awful…..
It didn’t take you guys long to wander off topic and into personal insults. Did someone forget Godwin’s Law?Back to the topic, as an autistic adult I wonder why neurotypical people spend so much time and effort trying to find someone or something to blame instead of getting on with dealing with somehting they consider to be a problem.Perhaps if more parents focussed on parenting, rather than blaming, they might find a little more peace? Surely a child is a child, regardless of how they differ from your expectations of what a child ought be like? It is really quite remarkable just how unrealistic many so-called adults expectations of others actually are.Instead of finger pointing, perhaps a little more effort in helping? Just because someone is different, there is no excuse for insisting that they change or be changed to suit you. Try a little understanding, and make an effort to change to meet another person’s needs.It is unacceptable this so-called cultural fixation on the the self. Being an individual with rights doesn’t give you the right to be selfish. It is not our freedoms that piss others off, it is our entrenched, arrogant selfishness.
Despite the hostility shown in some of the comments by people on both sides of the issue, I truly appreciate the tone and content of your post, Kev. Although we disagree on the fundamental nature of autism, we are in agreement that what some of us call a “cure” is not necessarily the right option for everyone. Moreover, we agree that fighting for basic human dignity is everyone’s job. Yes, I will “fight for autistics,” but don’t ask me to give up fighting against the problems that autism has caused my son.
Some people sure do perseverate on this mercury-poisoning nonsense, don’t they?
How much easier it is to assign blame than to actually find a way to engage in any personal change and understanding of the world.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2347821&query_hl=1
and
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/2/e166
If anyone has references actually from the People’s Republic of China, please tell us where they are indexed. There is enough stuff that is hidden going on there in regards to infanticide and education, that it is tough to get a real picture of what is happening. With the “one child” rule:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15626199&query_hl=15
and http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/353/11/1171 … plus some nasty results:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15802971&query_hl=15
Also, a clarification: The MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal. The only pediatric vaccine left in the West is influenza, and there are thimerosal-free versions of that.
Some of have an interest in this issue because of kids with other disabilities who need to rely on herd immunity. For general information try http://www.pkids.org/index2.htm and http://www.4hcm.org/flash/index.html and http://www.efa.org/ .
Also, there is no documentation that chelation for either mercury or lead has improved the neurological damage that has already occured. The chelation for true heavy metal poisoning is done to prevent FURTHER damage.
About right, andrea.
Chicken Leech said, “Give me your address and I’ll mail it to you.”
Can I be the first to point out that Ted Kaczynski has apparently been granted internet access?
They’re probably under reporting it though.
What if I said humans can fly by sheer force of will, but the airline companies are trying to supress that knowledge? What if I got up and started flying around the room, under controlled conditions, checked carefully for hidden wires and such? Which would be the more compelling argument? “Chicken Leech”, don’t just say you have evidence, show it!
Wade said:
_”but don’t ask me to give up fighting against the problems that autism has caused my son.”_
I said before that:
_”I don’t want your child to be in pain any more than I want my child in pain…..I don’t try and stop you from curing (if thats the word you choose to use) your kids”_
:o)
To all:
Please consider JB Jr persona non grata.
I can ban each IP address he uses but if, as I suspect, he’s on a dialup acct, I can’t do an awful lot to stop him posting.
However, I will delete each and every entry that comes from him in this and any other thread. What I ask from all of you is that you totally ignore him. No matter how provocative he is – ignore him. Don’t address him, or even allude to him in passing. Just pretend he isn’t there.
Doing this will make my life easier as I won’t have to delete all the comments of people replying to him. All I’ll have to worry about is his drivel. And believe me, he’ll get bored before I do.
Remember that trolls like JBJr exist solely to wind others up. He has offered nothing to any of the debates on here save hate and abuse. Thats his life and his choice. I’m not going to be a party to it and I’d ask that whilst you’re on here, you aren’t too.
There’s no need to reply directly to this comment.
Thanks.
If one declares the outcome of any hypothesis to be binary (either completely right or wrong), that the probability of one outcome being right just increased up to 50%. However, as Kev and others have pointed out, there exist many possibilites in the roots of autism; so the binary model, while sounding profound and providing a concrete platform on which to fundraise, doesn’t do justice to the complexity of the phenomenon.
Anyway, what I’m floundering to say is that I can see why someone would declare a position and demand that he’s either right or wrong. It’s comforting to be certain of something. And it’s comforting to be close to people who are certain of things that are of mutual interest.
J. Ken Wickiser Said: “It’s comforting to be certain of something. And it’s comforting to be close to people who are certain of things that are of mutual interest.
Well said Ken,
The mercury parents don’t hold the exclusive on that either. It’s not easy to recognize this vulnerability in oneself but it’s never a good thing to ignore the possibility that you are wrong. I’ve heard it said that both sides are firmly entrenched in their beliefs but I honestly don’t see very much of this coming from the not-mercury side of the fence. I hear a lot of people saying the research doesn’t support a connection or the hypothesis is yet to be tested but that doesn’t sound like entrenchment to me. I think most critical thinkers would readily accept a role for thimerosal if presented with concrete evidence, I know I would. In fact I have had many moments of doubt when new research has been presented and I still allow for the possibity even though my instincts tell me it’s a non-factor. To do otherwise would be entrenchment and thinking with my emotions. Those times when I’ve had my doubts I’ve taken the time to read the research with an open mind and I was perfectly willing to reconsider my POV if I saw anything to convince me. Not only did I not see anything to convince me but each time I read research that fails to demonstrate a connection I become less convinced that thimerosal ever held a role in the development of autism. So there you have an open and honest presentation of my POV. Perhaps I’m under-qualified to analyze the research and form that opinion but I’m willing to admit it. Fortunately I am not asking anyone to share my opinion. Can any of the mercury parents say the same?
Now that one’s reportable to the department of homeland security or the UK equivalent.
Kev,
Excellent post that captures what I think a lot of people think on both sides of the question (the details, of course, differing a bit).
As individuals, I think there is a lot of common ground that we can find. Unfortunately, I’m not sure if the two sides will ever be able to “agree to disagree” on a wide-scale basis. We can hope, though.
I’m tired of fighting with people.
Isn’t it funny how those words bring out one of the nastiest, most obnoxious and persistent trolls on the net?
I can ban each IP address he uses but if, as I suspect, he’s on a dialup acct, I can’t do an awful lot to stop him posting.
You can ban the entire class C if you want to. 😉
Very informative. My favorite:
…We should also be sending word to the Chinese letting them know that we poisoned their kids. If their Premier or whatever he’s called hasn’t been paid off,
Just Google “Chinese President” if you’re not sure genius. Better yet, read the motto on your NH license plate and let us know what you decide.
Kevin, we’re working on a 3D, CG animated film to illustrate the pathology/biochemistry of autism from both prenatal and postnatal exposures to toxic metals and viral agents. Using a “virtual child,” we’ll show the world what lab and clinical science has to say about this issue. We’ve assembled a medical advisory panel from a number of those we’ve interviewed, and we intend to go into production by the middle of next year. The calgary mercury video will be crude by comparison.
The majority of your readers don’t understand what they hear about the biology of autism, or the resultant neurodevelopmental issues. The best I’ve gotten out of your crowd is that it’s totally mysterious and best accepted… no matter how many children have it. Don’t research it, and just leave the kids alone. Feed ’em, change their diapers and love them for who they are.
That’s not good enough. Until my daughter is independent and capable of some kind of social life, I won’t stop trying to “cure” her medical issues… and repair the brain damage.
Our film will fundamentally change the way the medical community and the public think about autism and it’s CAUSES. In the very least, it’s going to ignite this debate on a much larger scale. Perhaps more so than the book “Evidence of Harm” has done.
And I can’t wait.
Who’s we, Erik? Who’s funding it? Big chem?
🙂 Make sure you take all the heat off of PCBs and pesticides and put it all on mercury now!
Oh, and please describe the migration of neurons at about 5 weeks after conception. by 6 weeks the number of minicolumns a brain will have is set in stone.
Autistics have significantly more minicolums in their frontal cortex than normals. That means autistics became autistic around 40 days into gestation or earlier. (read the work of Manuel Casanova)
Give me a stinking break. If you can’t show that mercury damage looks like autism at the brain cell level, then your video will be just a bunch of nonsense.
Sounds awesome Erik. When should we expect this Nickleodeon production? Will there be any real actors or will it be all claymation?
Erik wrote:
“Using a “virtual child,†we’ll show the world what lab and clinical science has to say about this issue.” Good luck with that one and do try very hard to avoid the pitfalls of a similar enterprise – the young earth model complete with dinosaur tracks only a few thousand years old. I’m sure that the cimematic razzle dazzle will completely captivate the science illiterati.
“The majority of your readers don’t understand what they hear about the biology of autism, or the resultant neurodevelopmental issues.”
Well now, how’s that for breath-taking certainty?
Erik, I don’t know what your educational background is like, but I’ve read enough to form some idea of your cognitive prowess. Don’t offer to do your kid’s homework, and I mean that kindly – or that’s as kind as I can get under the provocation.
You seem to have imbibed too freely of the ale of smug normality – I am (normal), therefore I think
Al
MsC: “Oh, and please describe the migration of neurons at about 5 weeks after conception. by 6 weeks the number of minicolumns a brain will have is set in stone.
Autistics have significantly more minicolums in their frontal cortex than normals. That means autistics became autistic around 40 days into gestation or earlier.”
Interesting, that. Can you explain to me the significance of this bit (long time since my neuropsych classes, and I’d be interested to know since it could have some useful applications in my field)?
Thanks. It sounds promising….
the ale of smug normality
Oh, that stuff. That’s the stuff people get drunk on right before they beat the crap out of you (literally or figuratively) for being “different”.
Oh, come on guys… so skeptical, all of you. To think I expected a warmer reception, really! 🙂
Sounds fascinating Erik.
Now, how about you address some of the points I made in this post.
Erik Nanstiel spoke about some magic “virtual child†model.
Please tell me that this is a joke. Some of the best minds in science are struggling to model a cell, and you expect people to be impressed about some “virtual child” modeling effort?
He also insinuated the prevailing attitude of this blog’s readers is, “Don’t research it, and just leave the kids alone. Feed ‘em, change their diapers and love them for who they are.”
Erik – that is unbelieveably coldhearted and it gives some real insight into you as a person. My bet is that you’ll be reading your words again soon on a different blog.
PS – if you wanna see who doesn’t understand the science then let’s do a few rounds of “interpret the paper”. Got to warn you though that aspiring for champagne academic prowess while owning a beer intellect will get you smoked, and quickly.
btw, loved the claymation, licence plate, and dinosaur track smackdowns. Someone get Erik a bag of frozen peas.
PPS – I don’t mean to disparage all beers, it’s just a saying (give the gif ~10 seconds). Besides, champagne is less than impressive anyway.
Kev, the problem I’m having lately is that there is too much rhetoric and not enough real communication.
Just one example from above: “Don’t research it, and just leave the kids alone. Feed ‘em, change their diapers and love them for who they are.” Erik, you know that’s a misrepresentation of the position you are arguing against. It is a method of ignoring the real issues.
If everyone’s so concerned about communication, which we all are, we ought to try to practice it.
It’s actually not that easy.
You know, I’m just going to keep going with this model claim since it’s really messed up.
Making a home movie is one thing. But making a home movie and marketing it as a scientific model based upon known and accepted research is another thing entirely.
I think you’re confusing a model with a cartoon. You want to make a fancy cartoon of the human body and zoom inside and look around the brain while highlighting structures that are claimed by these less-than-stellar sources to susceptible to thimerosal poisoning – go for it. But that ain’t some predictive tool. It’s a cartoon movie and nothing more. That’s called a product, or one might even call it propaganda.
Further, pretending to understand the underlying biology behind autism to the point that a useful and accurate model can be created is both arrogant and delusional. I know that in discussing the roots of autism, a lack of a binary outcome might not be satisfying to you. However, I suggest that keeping an open mind about many possibilities is a strength, not a weakness.
I suppose only time will tell whether the movie will be as influential as Kirby’s piece. But I’d also suggest that claiming the movie’s cited references are as scientifically sound as those that support the autism-mercury theory isn’t something to crow about; rather, it’s something to hide.
Minicolumnar pathology in autism Manuel F. Casanova, MD; Daniel P. Buxhoeveden, PhD; Andrew E. Switala; and Emil Roy, PhD (Neurology, 2002)
from the discussion section:
…Taken together, the gray level indices suggest a distinction in the small-scale distribution of cells without a corresponding difference in cell density. It therefore makes sense that individual cells in the smaller minicolumns in brains of autistic patients are more dispersed as reflected by their relative dispersion ratio (i.e., RDR parameter, which represents cell compactness).
All of the measurements in our sample were provided per microscopic field. This means that the brain of the autistic patient has more minicolumns, albeit of reduced size, per longitudinal expanse of cortex (figure 3).
This novel cytoarchitectural arrangement may originate during the neurogenesis of the cell minicolumn. The evolution of the mammalian brain emphasizes expansion of cortical surface rather than thickness.
This is evident by the almost 1,000-fold increase in cortical surface versus only a twofold increase in cortical width.37 Investigators37 postulate that the observed enlargement in cortical surface stems from an increase in number of ontogenetic cell columns. In this model, new patterns of connections brought about by an increased number of minicolumns would be established if they were “validated†by natural selection.
Additional studies are needed to determine whether these supernumerary columns are caused by a mutation in the regulatory genes that control the timing and ratio of symmetric and asymmetric cell divisions in the proliferative zone.
Evolution has kept column (mini and macro) size essentially constant while increasing total cortical surface area, which, in larger brains, has resulted in more columns per brain and thus more processing units and increased complexity.20,38 During this slow process, selection pressures ensured that the addition of new cell columns would benefit the organisms or at least not prove maladaptive. In autism, a significant increase in processing units may occur, an acute event not subject to normal selection pressures.
If thalamic terminations remain the same in autism (uncertain at this time) and minicolumns are smaller, then more minicolumns will be innervated per thalamic afferent terminal than in the normal brain.
The failure to assimilate extra processing units by the connectivity patterns of the brain may result in cortical “noise,†that is, additional units of activity that overtax the system.
Among several conceptual classifications, autism has been considered a disorder of the arousalmodulating systems of the brain.39 According to this theory, autistic individuals experience a chronic state of overarousal and exhibit abnormal behaviors to diminish this arousal.
The arousal theory is of some interest because it is consistent with a reduction of inhibitory interneuronal activity. It is known that the cortex contains inhibitory double bouquet cells that define minicolumnar organization for the brain,40 or what one researcher calls a “strong vertically directed stream of inhibitionâ€.1
The lateral inhibition caused by the GABAergic neurons helps to ensure individual minicolumn discreteness and during development, to impel adjacent minicolumns into establishing connections with functionally dissimilar sets of thalamic neurons.2,3
A lack of these lateral inhibitors would grossly alter the connective patterns between thalamic input and column, tending toward convergence. The result would affect the ability to discriminate between competing types of sensory information. …
——–
Casanova presented a paper on the AWARES conference site that sort of digests his work. He explains that autistics have more minicoloums and that they have less neuropil space between minicolumns and that means that they have less sort of “shielding”… he said it’s like they don’t have a normal shower curtain around each minicolumn and so the minicolumns can influence each other, and cause a kind of overload… I think.
Armando Bertone did a paper this year with Mottron et al, they say autistics have better discrimination and this might be due to the smaller minicolumns… If I remember correctly.
Perhaps Michelle would comment on that if she’s around.
I can picture a couple or more of the wealthy parents-in-denial-about-the-source-of-their-child’s-autism saying;
“Make me a movie that will show that mercury causes autism… how much will it cost?” I don’t care!
Damn the facts, damn the science, damn the torpedos, I’ll write you a blank check. I want a vritual child to show how I had nothing to do with this autism eating my *perfect* child’s brain…
Don’t tell me about how genes alone can create a regression (see Rett syndrome), I need to blame a chemical and it better be in a vaccine whatever it is.
How much money is this thing costing and why isn’t that money being put into research to try to support your unsupported hypothesis?
…and repair the brain damage.
Erik, I work with a variety of children with special needs. If you do indeed find a way to repair brain damage, please pass on this wonderful discovery to the parents of children who were brain damaged due to lack of oxygen at birth, or traumatic brain injury and so on. I will admit that I am not a neurologist, but from what I know recovery from brain injuries can happen, but is both unpredictable, and very limited.
Oops… sorry Kevin, I argued back. The implication that children whose parents do not use dangerous and untested therapies on children do not love them is… sickening. Truly.
A friend of mine has some social and communication difficulties (I suspect she has Aspergers, but I’m not sure). It would be good for her if she could overcome some of her social difficulties (and given that I’m not the best at social interactions we might misunderstand each other a bit less!); but fundamentally, I love her for who she is. Her mother though, believes that everyone should be ‘normal’, and has had the effect of crushing my friend’s self esteem. She still has the ability to make her life miserable. Love and respect make so much of a difference.
M: argue with Erik by all means – whatever his beliefs, he’s not abusive like JB Jr. I realise its not easy to tell who is/isn’t JB Jr but just judge a comment by the amount of personal abuse it contains.
JG: “I can picture a couple or more of the wealthy parents-in-denial-about-the-source-of-their-child’s-autism saying;
‘Make me a movie that will show that mercury causes autism… how much will it cost?’ I don’t care!”
Um… sounds *very* like… er…
“Write us a paper saying that MMR causes autism…. how much will it cost? We don’t care!”
Interesting…..
😉
M: “Her mother though, believes that everyone should be ‘normal’, and has had the effect of crushing my friend’s self esteem. She still has the ability to make her life miserable. Love and respect make so much of a difference.”
As I said: “Self-esteem is a huge factor for positive change. If a child is denied that, then it does impact badly on the psychosocial development of the child. Developmental issues which do not cause children to become autistic but can complicate the picture somewhat can result from not being allowed to feel good about oneself.”
Thanks for highlighting the effect of denying a kid the right to feel good about oneself, whoever one is. I feel sad for your friend. But at least there’s someone loves her for who she is, and that will count enormously.
If you do indeed find a way to repair brain damage, please pass on this wonderful discovery to the parents of children who were brain damaged due to lack of oxygen at birth, or traumatic brain injury and so on. I will admit that I am not a neurologist, but from what I know recovery from brain injuries can happen, but is both unpredictable, and very limited.
Erik’s been told more than once that serious brain damage is permanent, but he won’t listen. No amount of evidence to the contrary will change his mind, including hundreds of thousands of people with permanent brain damage who are never going to get much better.
On the matter of self-esteem, teaching a child that they are defective has a very serious negative impact on them. Teaching them that they won’t be as good as everyone else until they’re just like everyone else is downright destructive.