Quick Quiz

71 Responses to “Quick Quiz”

1. clone3g February 24, 2006 at 16:12 #

   Not to make this personal but Nancy’s child doesn’t suffer from most of the illnesses on herlist, her child supposedly “recovered” from apparently mild behaviors, that may have met some diagnostic criteria for autism, without the use of any supplements or drugs that are known to address mercury toxicity, yet she is sure her child fits the description of ‘mercury induced autism.’

   So how many of those medical conditions have been proven to be more common to autism and how many of them are associated with mercury poisoning? Brain lesions with demyelination? Esophineal esophagitis? Chronic sinus infections? PANDAS?

   Nancy Hokkanen – Treble without a cause.
2. andrea February 24, 2006 at 16:44 #

   That is one wild-and-crazy list of medical issues. And that’s what they are — MEDICAL issues! Unrelated medical issues, no less. (Shoot, I bet a percentage of autistics are nearsighted, just as is the general population, but no one is calling nearsightedness a “symptom” of autism.) Simply put, autism is not a disease.

   I have the distinct impression that the author has read neither the DSM-IV nor the ICD-10 critieria for autism.

   Her entire post is a shortlist of argumentive fallacies. As far as I can tell, it is unfortunately well-designed to foment irrational mob behaviour.

   andrea
3. Dave Seidel February 24, 2006 at 17:06 #

   The worst part is the intentional disinformation that Hokkanen is propogating — that the so-called “neurodiverse” say that there symptoms should be “ignored”. Such bullshit. No one on any side of this issue, as far as I know, has *ever* advocated for allowing children (or anyone) to suffer with any physical ailments. Of course, this is one of thoses claims that never contains any specific citations of the alleged position. A good example of “Big Lie”:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie tactics.
4. Dad Of Cameron February 24, 2006 at 18:07 #

   IMHO the tactics and inherent fallacies boil down to emotional appeal.

   Why is the autism-biomed crowd so apparently impervious or oblivious to thinking? I think it possible that one of the core reasons is that it can be psychologically self-preserving to adopt the view of someone (or especially a group) who provides acceptance. Even if one only other person is only conveying anecdote, if someone untrained to think critically has no true knowledge of the subject material (especially if it’s scientific or medical), a quick buy-in affords the listener immediate acceptance and avoids feelings of inferiority. They immediately become a “good” parent in the eyes of someone, anyone. They have answers and don’t perceive themselves inferior, especially compared to a scientific community that openly admits that what is not known is infinitely huge. Unfortunately, it appears that critical thinking does not pervade the majority. The U.S. appears largely a nation of emotion vs. thought, and the same appears true for families with autism in them. Short-term self and group acceptance prevail over the rewards of patience, discipline, and inherent mistakes of actually learning.

   Perhaps we need think about how to appeal to their emotions first. It’s not going to be easy for me, because I don’t “get” the whole actions and decision making based on emotion or belief, presented as fact. But, if we don’t figure out how to speak their language (when they can’t even understand ours), the quackery and hate-mongering survives.

   [Please accept my apologies for appearing redundant if you read over at Respectful Insolence. I posted a nearly identical comment as it related to a post discussing doctor-patient communication and patient’s tendency to choose anecdote.]
5. Billy Joel February 24, 2006 at 19:24 #

   Wade, he knows he’s such a credit to the game
   But the ND’s grab the headlines every time
   Woah!
   Melodrama’s so much fun…
   in black and white for everyone to see.
   To see.

   I’ve got the old man’s car,
   I’ve got cream of Buttar
   I’ve got a tab with a DAN! chiropracter
   Tonight,
   that’s where I’ll be.
   I’ll be…

   Me, I’m trying just to get to figure this stuff out
   And I’d feel better it if the quacks just went away
   Woah!
   Kathleen’s putting on a smackdown
   The Lupron whores are lookin’ like clowns to me
   To me.

   I’ve got the old man’s car,
   I’ve got a tub of Buttar
   I’ve got a tab with a Lupron quacker…
   Tonight,
   that’s where I’ll be.
6. Amanda February 24, 2006 at 19:33 #

   Hmm. Interesting list.

   Some of those things, like “yeast overgrowth”, are suspect: I was diagnosed with “yeast overgrowth” by a quack. Yes, a quack. And if I’d followed his advice to get rid of it, it could have killed me. What he did was he came up with a list of “symptoms” that I did indeed have, and then blamed them on a non-existent medical cause rather than looking at the real (multiple) causes.

   (On the other hand, I have genuine yeast infections on my skin, and they are not the same thing at all. Interestingly, while I have had to fend off quacks trying to treat me for “systemic candida,” I have had to fight to get the proper basic healthcare for candida skin infections which, no, do not cause autism or have anything to do with autism.)

   When someone says that saying some of those things don’t exist is ignoring children’s pain, it’s not logical, not in line with reality. I once went to a quack who wanted to treat all kinds of non-existent vitamin and mineral deficiencies when the real reason I was in pain was inherited gallbladder disease. He and many other doctors (both those deserving of the title “doctor” and those not) delayed the treatment for several years. Someone could say that deciding that inherited gallbladder disease was not caused by various deficiencies or food sensitivities or anything, is “ignoring my pain,” but I rather think that blaming it on something that wasn’t there is closer to ignoring pain.

   I’m baffled though by the continuing reference to these problems.

   I have seizures, chronic migraines, reflux, asthma, functional bowel problems (alternating between diarrhea and constipation bad enough to cause blockages sometimes), bad eyesight, early-onset gallbladder disease (shared by most of the women on my mother’s side of the family), severe neuropathic pain of some sort, genuine (as opposed to the quack “systemic” kind that are truly rare) candida skin infections, brain damage, stamina problems, RSI, and motor planning problems.

   Among probably other things, because I don’t tend to think of my body in all those little parts like that. I just live in the thing, I don’t categorize it.

   Now, some of those things are, I suspect, related to autism, or related to the same underlying things that cause me to be autistic. (Some of which are not likely to be the same for most other autistics — and definitely not poisoning-related.)

   But when a non-autistic person has those things, they’re generally treated or dealt with in some way. When an autistic person has those things, they should also be generally treated or dealt with in some way. I think of them as absolutely no different than if I were non-autistic, except that some of the treatment methods need to be modified because I’m autistic and that does affect things. But the basic idea is the same.

   The “Neurodiversity people don’t want these things treated” thing is a distraction, a way of playing to the emotions, a way of lying about who and what we really are, an almost willful-seeming misreading and misrepresentation. It’s getting tiresome.
7. Dave Seidel February 24, 2006 at 19:51 #

   Per Amanda’s last paragraph, I completely agree except for one thing: I think the misreading and misrepresentation is *absolutely* willful, especially on Lenny Schafer’s part. This particular piece of rhetorical slime may have been contributed by Hokkanen, but Lenny is the real ringleader on the neurodiversity demonization bandwagon.
8. Jonathan Semetko February 24, 2006 at 20:05 #

   Hi Kev,

   I saw that list on EoHarm a few days ago. I am glad that you responded to it.

   Nancy Hokkanen wrote:

   “Perhaps at no other time in history has it been so common that when truth is not expedient, people create convenient fictions.”

   (sigh) She is so close….

   “This denial perpetuates the suffering of children, and that is morally indefensible.”

   “Rather than actually witness or try to help, it’s quicker to indulge inlurid oppositional imaginings from the comfort of one’s home.”

   “Witness”? Is this the religious testimony sense of the word or are we talking about recognizing the validity of something.

   “indulge inlurid oppositional imaginings”

   What this might have to do with autism I have no idea. It doesn’t really follow coherently.

   “This denial perpetuates the suffering of children, and that is morally indefensible.”

   If Nancy has data from controlled sources for the list she gave she should have presented them. That is, if she is arguing that these are more than co-morbidities. I have no idea what the moral implications of this might be. “Moral” usually signifies a religious position, however the ethics of advocating a treatment when such is not shown to be merited, seems abysmal.
9. North Dakota February 24, 2006 at 23:07 #

   Wade, what a guy. Nancy, what a gal. Lenny [no comment]. What’s that they are spewing? autisticophobia? Neurodiverseophobia? Heterophobia? [were different from him so to be feared?] Xenophobia? [we’re foreign to him so to feared and demonized?] Their buddy JB Jr spews hatred on autism as well as other minorities. He writes like a biggot but they love him.

   What a batch of bald faced liars. None of them has ever shown a case where anyone has said, “don’t treat that diarrhea, don’t treat that asthma, don’t address that sensitivity, don’t educate”. What big fat liars on EoHarm — “big” and “fat” metaphorically speaking. What effective shills for the quacks.

   We are watching them and ‘witnessing’ that they are dragging poor autistic kids off to DAN! ™ docs and getting them harmed. There’s the evidence of harm. On the atuism biomed boards, they talk about the way they harm their children and everyone nods and says, “healing regression” “healing crisis”.

   “You’re kid’s sick and pale and not eating? Good sign! Don’t stop chelating/giving massive vitamin doses/getting IVIG.”
   He’s gonna be normal soon all right, if he’s only very normal for a corpse. Then they can light a candle in front of St. David Kirby. That makes it all better.

   I want to know what got under Hokkanen’s skin. Was it Michelle making it into all the press and Mottron saying that their kids are smarter than they thought? Shoot the messenger. Can’t say that their kids are smart. Might damage their case in vaccine court. Might make it harder on the bloodsucking lawyers they hired. Not all lawyers are bloodsuckers, don’t know if Wade is one of them. Now I’m inclined to think the worst of him.
10. Amanda February 24, 2006 at 23:25 #

    And I am inclined to agree with Dave (including his correction), except for possibly the part that says that Lenny Schafer is the ringleader on the neurodiversity-demonization bandwagon.

    Lenny has been around for awhile, certainly, but he’s not “the” single ringleader. He’s a ringleader at a particular place and time. This bandwagon, however, predates him, and at one point he jumped onto it himself. (Anyone remember Rimland and all the others?)

    I haven’t been around even as long as Lenny, but I’ve studied a lot of history in the autistic community and this form of vilification, this kind of venom, these bizarre quack cures, and so forth, have been a constant for a long time. The reason this is important is that I think too often people condense large-scale problems down to one individual and focus on that individual, then another individual is around doing the same thing and a third individual pops up to take the first’s place and so on and so forth.
11. Ian February 24, 2006 at 23:34 #

    I think most people reading this blog will agree that nancy’s list is silly.

    No one though has addressed Wade’s point though which was

    “if comorbidities are the cause of the dysfunctions by which our children are being diagnosed, can we really call them comorbidities?”

    What I believe he’s getting at is that if there is an underlying disease, for example PKU, which is in the medical literature said to “cause” autism, then can you call it a comorbidity? Ther’s a whole host of diseases, some only identified in the last 20 years, whose side effect seems to be what is categorised as autism (using DSM iV). There’s genetic things, like Fragile X, there’s viral things, like SSPE, there’s metabolic things like PKU. It’s strange how a whole series of very unreleated disease processes can result in also children getting an ASD diagnosis.

    There agian, perhaps it isn’t so surprising. If in fact ASD is just a big bucket of symptoms, then it’s highly likely that there are a multitude of different underlying medical conditions which could result in symptoms recognisable as ASD. These underlying medical consitions might also have other symptoms, comorbidities if you will, such as hyperactivity, or lethargy, diarhea or constipdation. Such a hypothesis, would explain the wildly different characteristics of children who are diagnosed as being ASD, but at the same time some clear sub groups appear. It’s highly likely that these medical conditions are genetic in origin, but probably not a single gene issue. It’s also lpossible that there is some set of environmental effects at play, for a set of genetically predisposed kids. And before someone chimes in with heavy metals as a cause, just to make it clear I’m not talking about that at all, so don’t bother talking about it in a response.

    Ian
12. Kev February 24, 2006 at 23:42 #

    _”Now, some of those things are, I suspect, related to autism, or related to the same underlying things that cause me to be autistic.”_

    Thats a good point Amanda – one I should’ve made in my original post given our prior conversation on the topic – as I’m sure you’re right and that whatever the causes the state of being autistic may well have a ‘knock on’ effect but as you say, attributing that ‘knock on’ to mercury is, at best, unproven and more than possibly totally incorrect.

    As for Lenny (who I recently exchanged emails with during which time he balked at my offer to debate him publicly on his anti-autistic stance) – he provides a point for others to coalesce around but he’s just one of many points.
13. Anne February 24, 2006 at 23:50 #

    When Margaret Bauman spoke at the MIND Institute last month she talked about the problem of doctors refusing to treat medical problems in autistic kids, putting the problems down to autism. She says this does happen, and I have heard parents report the same thing.

    The idea that “neurodiversity” is against treating medical problems seems like a circular argument that starts and ends with the premise that autism is a medical problem. It goes something like: Autism is a medical problem. ND’s don’t want to cure autism. Therefore, ND’s don’t want us to cure our kids’ medical problems.

    While I don’t like this kind of misrepresentation, the failure of doctors to render appropriate treatment to autistic kids is a bigger issue.
14. Kev February 24, 2006 at 23:52 #

    _”What I believe he’s getting at is that if there is an underlying disease, for example PKU, which is in the medical literature said to “cause” autism, then can you call it a comorbidity?”_

    No, I don’t believe you could – in a strictly medical sense at least. But thats not what I took from Wade’s point. He wasn’t (I don’t think) suggesting autism _was_ a comorbidity (although it can be a comorbidity of Down’s Syndrome for example) but rather that the collection of what I think of as comorbidities on Nancy’s list can be used to diagnose the proposed condition of mercury induced autism.

    You’ll note that when talking to peope who believe as Nancy do that they very very rarely talk about the three areas of differences. Instead they compile a huge list of medical symptoms that bear no relation to the ASD diagnostic criteria and present these as things that are wrong with their kids. So the key issues never get discussed and we have people like Lenny Schafer resort to bizarre analogies (anyone remember his amusing ‘autism apples/oranges’ theory) to explain away what the rest of us simlpy realise is because autism is a spectrum.
15. Amanda February 25, 2006 at 00:29 #

    Kev wrote:

    Thats a good point Amanda – one I should’ve made in my original post given our prior conversation on the topic – as I’m sure you’re right and that whatever the causes the state of being autistic may well have a ‘knock on’ effect but as you say, attributing that ‘knock on’ to mercury is, at best, unproven and more than possibly totally incorrect.

    In my case, also, I suspect that some of the reasons I’m autistic are not the same as the reasons most autistic people are autistic. The same thing that probably caused me (or was a significant contributor to the cause) to be autistic, however, does seem to be correlated to, for instance, neuropathic pain and gastrointestinal problems (it’s not, however, a form of damage or poisoning, things just grow that way).

    I know someone who has something called VATER association, that usually results in “developmental delays” along with a number of “birth defects” affecting a number of systems in the body. She found upon closer examination that most of the “developmental delays” in other people with VATER seemed to be of a particularly autistic shape rather than just random overall “developmental delays”.

    So it may be that some things that cause the brain to grow in an autistic way, also affect the rest of the body. (I know there is in research a distinction made between “essential” autism and “complex” autism, but in real life, as one of Autism Diva’s posts pointed out, I think there’s a lot of people with genetic conditions who aren’t diagnosed with autism because they’re already diagnosed with the genetic condition, and a lot of autistic people who aren’t diagnosed with the genetic conditions because they’re already diagnosed with autism. So in real life any given “autistic” could be either.)
16. Sue M. February 25, 2006 at 00:51 #

    Kev wrote:

    “As for Lenny (who I recently exchanged emails with during which time he balked at my offer to debate him publicly on his anti-autistic stance)…”

    – He balked at that? Well, yeah… Duh? What a silly request. Thanks for the laugh, Kev.

    – Sue M.
17. Alyric February 25, 2006 at 01:04 #

    Agree totally with Andrea

    What has this woman been smoking? Maybe she needs a spot of ABA te remediate her functional reading skills since nothing on that list is diagnostic criteria for autism.
    Where’s our Billy Connolly when we need him?
18. Jonathan Semetko February 25, 2006 at 03:27 #

    Wade wrote:

    “if comorbidities are the cause of the dysfunctions by which our children are being diagnosed, can we really call them comorbidities?”

    I looked at this question as rhetorical and decided and therefore decided not to answer it.

    This looks suspiciously like a distraction , even so I will answer it in brief:

    No, if one caused the other we would likely speak of the relationship as causal.

    There might be an exception to this is given cases e.g. (The problems require separate treatment).
19. Jonathan Semetko February 25, 2006 at 03:49 #

    Re circualr logic I am going to build on what Anne wrote which I agree with.

    1. Why do the ND’s support a no-cure stance for autism?

    2. They wish to ignore symptoms of mercury poising in autism?

    3. How do we know they ignore symptoms of mercury poisoning.

    4. They support a no-cure stance for autism?

    And around we go….
20. Jonathan Semetko February 25, 2006 at 03:52 #

    Hi Sue,

    “He balked at that? Well, yeah… Duh? What a silly request. Thanks for the laugh, Kev.”

    Why is that silly?
21. Wade Rankin February 25, 2006 at 05:16 #

    Now this is why I so rarely post anything on EoH. Okay, let’s get the whole quote out there.

    “As I have asked our friend about his use of that term, if comorbidities are the cause of the dysfunctions by which our children are being diagnosed, can we really call them comorbidities? My son didn’t get diagnosed on the basis of a genetic test; it was based on clinical indications. If treating those comorbidities alleviates those clinical indications, then I’ll go on treating them and anyone can call them what they want. As for me, if it waddles like a duck, has feathers like a duck, and quacks like a duck …, well you know.”

    First, I was responding to Erik’s comment about comorbidities when I posted that, rather than Nancy’s original comment. Any disagreements I may have with any neurodiversity advocates have little to do with whether we are looking at comorbidities or autism itself.

    Second, I must issue to some extent with Kev’s statement that “[w]hat Wade is essentially postulating is another, seperate form of autism that Nancy calls ‘mercury induced autism’.” As you are well aware, I see causation to be a bit more complex. Although I think mercury is likely involved in a large number of diagnosed cases of autism, I do not see it as the only factor, nor do I claim that mercury is necessarily involved in every case of autism.

    Finally, let me reassure North Dakota that I am not a bloodsucker. The bulk of my practice is representing defendants in tort suits, which regretfully is not as lucrative as representing plaintiffs. I have not, and do not represent any plaintiffs suing vaccine manufacturers.

    Now, if you’ll excuse me, we’re trying to have a Mardi Gras in these parts.
22. Ms Clark February 25, 2006 at 10:10 #

    Let’s see.

    If it waddles like a duck walk it to the nearest quack and get it chelated.

    yup. Duckhood as a novel form of mercury poisoning, makes as much sense as that pathetic paper by Sally with a “y” Bernard, et al.
23. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) February 25, 2006 at 14:01 #

    Alyric: “Where’s our Billy Connolly when we need him?”

    A wiz oot hae’in’ a pish… on Hokkanen’s fuckin’ heid!
24. Sue M. February 25, 2006 at 15:19 #

    Jonathan,

    Kev originally wrote:

    “As for Lenny (who I recently exchanged emails with during which time he balked at my offer to debate him publicly on his anti-autistic stance…)”.

    – I said (and I still believe) that this is a silly request and deserved to be balked at. Now, it’s possible that Kev is using this “anti-autistic” expression here on this blog but did not express that in his e-mails to Lenny. For example, possibly to Lenny he wrote:

    Dear Lenny,

    I would be interested in having a public debate with you where we could talk about the ongoing issues within the autism community. We obviously have differing views and it is a good idea to get these out in the open for discussion.

    All my best,
    Kev.

    – That is a request which could easily be turned down but would not be considered a “silly” request. According to Kev, though, he wanted to debate him on his “anti-autistic stance”. If someone wanted to debate me on my “anti-autistic stance” (clearly no one would as I’m not worthy) but if they did, certainly I would answer in the negative as well. Going into a debate where I am seen as “anti-autistic” is not worth my time and energy.

    – Sue M.
25. Jonathan Semetko February 25, 2006 at 18:51 #

    Sue,

    Okay, that is clearer. Lenny probably wouldn’t agree to that as worded.

    However, I don’t disagree with Kev….

    Lenny, has repeatedly written that certain autistics need a cure. That seem to be the defintion of anti-autistic.

    What is more, Lenny kicked a teenage girl off his list after she was thoroughly flamed by our fellow list member of EoHarm. He also allowed for the SAR to publish ad hominem attacks against Michelle Dawson from a number of people in my field who I thought were good role models.

    Those last two may not be anti-autistic, but were not ethical either.
26. Kev February 25, 2006 at 21:14 #

    Obviously I didn’t word it quite like that Sue. I think I said that I found his stance on neurodiversity bizarre and his opinions regarding who could be construed autistic or not contradictory and asked him for a debate which he turned down. As did JB Handley as I recall.

    I’d quite happily debate you Sue – lets start off with ‘do you agree with Nancy that neurodiversity innately involves letting children suffer with medical conditions such as those she listed and I quote above’?
27. Sue M. February 25, 2006 at 22:44 #

    Jonathan wrote:

    “What is more, Lenny kicked a teenage girl off his list after she was thoroughly flamed by our fellow list member of EoHarm. He also allowed for the SAR to publish ad hominem attacks against Michelle Dawson from a number of people in my field who I thought were good role models”.

    – If you have issues with anything that Lenny does, I suggest that you go to him directly. As for that teenager… I remember that situation. It really wasn’t that big of a deal…in my opinion… (other than the fact that she was only 15 at the time). Quite frankly, her parents should have been monitoring her computer use more closely.

    – Sue M.
28. Sue M. February 26, 2006 at 00:05 #

    Kev wrote:

    “lets start off with ‘do you agree with Nancy that neurodiversity innately involves letting children suffer with medical conditions such as those she listed and I quote above”?

    – No, I don’t believe that neurodiversity innately involves letting children suffer. Although I can’t speak for her, I would guess that Nancy doesn’t either. The fact that she put “celebrate their neurodiversity” in quotations indicates to me that she was using a sort of hyperbole to make a point. I’m sure that you don’t need me to point out the many examples of hyperbole used in this blog to describe the EoH crowd. If you would be interested in seeing examples of this, just ask and I will point some out for you.
    To her point, however, I will say that I have become annoyed at times with how quickly many of you can belittle, ignore or deny medical conditions which often come with the diagnosis of “autism”. More importantly, how quickly mainstream doctors will ignore medical conditions, instead, chalking it up to “autism”. It doesn’t make sense to me. I often wonder if people in the ND crowd don’t have these medical issues or if they don’t have children with some of these medical conditions (say, for example, GI distress). Possibly some of you are able to ignore or put aside these real concerns because they aren’t part of your child’s diagnosis. It’s easy to ignore things when they aren’t pertinent to you. In closing, I would ask you to address the issue of MAINSTREAM medical treatment of children with autism. You could start with the story about the young boy over in the UK who was denied treatment for some serious GI issues. Apparently, no one wanted to touch him with a 10 foot pole… Doesn’t this deserve to be addressed? No one here has really done that yet. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about this.

    – Sue M.
29. Daffy February 26, 2006 at 00:50 #

    Actually, John Best has done some research into quackery. Here are his scientific observations:

    Click to access DSA8-243.pdf

    http://www.nmr.nl/deins815.htm
30. Jannalou February 26, 2006 at 03:13 #

    Although I can’t speak for her, I would guess that Nancy doesn’t either. The fact that she put “celebrate their neurodiversity” in quotations indicates to me that she was using a sort of hyperbole to make a point.

    Um, actually, the way she worded the post, it reads as sarcasm – she is implying that people who agree with the neurodiversity stance tend to ignore the things in that list because they are a part of the child’s neurodiversity.

    Since the quote is at the top of the page, allow me to refresh your memory (minus the long list of physical symptoms).

    Which physical symptoms should be ignored in children with mercury- induced autism, so that their parents can “celebrate their neurodiversity”?

    Let’s break this down:

    She asks which physical symptoms should be ignored, which indicates that someone out there must be ignoring physical symptoms for some reason.She specifies “mercury-induced autism”, so one must assume that she is not talking about all autism.With the conclusion of the sentence, she specifies that parents are to be allowed to celebrate their autistic children’s neurodiversity by ignoring the physical symptoms.
    It is obvious to anyone with decent reading comprehension skills that she is specifically stating that parents who agree with neurodiversity are ignoring their children’s physical symptoms because of their neurodiverse philosophy.
31. Anne February 26, 2006 at 04:01 #

    Sue, didn’t you read my post? I agree with you. Medical problems in autistic kids should not be ignored.

    To me, one of the problems is in equating these health issues with autism. Any kid can have GI distress, asthma, or the other medical conditions on Nancy’s list. Any kid should receive treatment. Autistic kids should not be denied treatment because they are autistic.

    None of these types of health issues are part of anyone’s autism diagnosis. The diagnostic criteria do not include any of them. Treatment of these medical problems – even those that are truly comorbid with autism – is not treatment of autism.
32. Jonathan Semetko February 26, 2006 at 04:35 #

    Janna,

    You nailed it on the head!
33. Sarcastically Yours February 26, 2006 at 10:19 #

    Yeah, well, all of the neurodiversity sorts just let their children rot in the hell of autism, you know. They don’t seek therapy (occupational, speech, ABA, etc.), they don’t work with schools to get better support for their autistic children, they don’t do any reading or research on the topic of autism, oh, no, none of that. They just dawdle along doing nothing! Everyone knows this!

    How wise and clever the biomedical crowd are to have worked that out! They’re clearly much smarter than anyone else in the ENTIRE WORLD when it comes to what neurodiversity proponents believe and do. Hooray for the Toxic Mercury Parents and their Quacky Leaders! They know all, see all, and CURE ALL!
34. Kev February 26, 2006 at 10:27 #

    _”To her point, however, I will say that I have become annoyed at times with how quickly many of you can belittle, ignore or deny medical conditions which often come with the diagnosis of “autism”.”_

    Sue, I’m sorry, but thats almost exactly what Nancy was saying with her list. I, for one, have _never_ belittled or ignored or denied medical conditions which come with autism. What I am saying is that these comorbidities cannot be used to define or diagnose autism. It would be pretty stupid of me however to belittle, deny or ignore them seeing as I have always mentioned several comorbidities my own daughter has. What we disagree with is the nature of the assoication with autism these conditions have. You believe that they are part and package of autism in a subtype you call ‘mercury induced autism’. I say all autistic people can have comorbidities but they aren’t caused by mercury any more than autism is.

    The point I wished you to address was the blatant misrepresentation by a lot of people (not all) on your side of the debate that ‘the neurodiverse’ (whatever and whoever these people are) feel that these medical comorbidities, where they exist shouldn’t be treated. See Janalou’s points above for what I also am sure Nancy (and John Best, JB Handley, Lujene Clarke, Lenny Schafer et al) meant.

    _”More importantly, how quickly mainstream doctors will ignore medical conditions, instead, chalking it up to “autism”.”_

    Well, I can’t see how the concept of Neurodiversity can be responsible for that.

    _”I often wonder if people in the ND crowd don’t have these medical issues or if they don’t have children with some of these medical conditions (say, for example, GI distress). Possibly some of you are able to ignore or put aside these real concerns because they aren’t part of your child’s diagnosis. It’s easy to ignore things when they aren’t pertinent to you.”_

    As I’ve already stated, my daughter is Asthmatic. She used to have constipation (used to, she grew out of it) so I don’t see how you can say we don’t have these medical comorbidities to deal with. Yet again, you’re assuming that we’re ignoring them. Thats simply untrue. The difference is the relationship you put on them to autism itself and how that autism and attendant medical issues came about.

    Nobody knows to what extent a lot of the things in Nancy’s list exist in autistic kids. Without that knowledge its impossible to say whether we have enough to create a enw subcategory of autism or whether we simply have a number of people who’ve found each and discovered the odd similarity in symptoms. A few of them (precocious puberty is a great example) are purely bullshit to allow people to peddle their crap.

    _”In closing, I would ask you to address the issue of MAINSTREAM medical treatment of children with autism. You could start with the story about the young boy over in the UK who was denied treatment for some serious GI issues. Apparently, no one wanted to touch him with a 10 foot pole… Doesn’t this deserve to be addressed? No one here has really done that yet. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about this.”_

    I’m pretty sure we did discuss this Sue although I can’t remember where. If you could repoint me to the original news story (a quick BBC search reveals nothing) I’ll happily read it and address whatever points you want to make.
35. Sue M. February 26, 2006 at 14:32 #

    Kev wrote:

    “I’m pretty sure we did discuss this Sue although I can’t remember where. If you could repoint me to the original news story (a quick BBC search reveals nothing) I’ll happily read it and address whatever points you want to make”.

    – I’m pretty sure that we didn’t discuss it, Kev (although I tried). He’s the story. Unfortunately, there was no link so I had to copy and paste it. I know that you frown upon that but hopefully you will let this slide…

    PUBLIC HEALTH

    Does Laurence Prove That Some Doctors Want To Hide The Truth About MMR?

    By Sue Corrigan for the Mail, UK. Link not available.

    Dr Andrew Wakefield faces ruin because raised doubts about a controversial vaccination, but the astonishing story of this youngster’s suffering – and cure – could be the vital clue that shows the scientist was right all along..
    On the day just over three years ago that Prime Minister Tony Blair first triumphantly claimed victory for the Govern¬ment in the fight to prove MMR safe, Sue McGowan was too busy even to notice.
    She was focusing all her attention on keeping her ten-year-old autistic son, Laurence, alive with the only thing he could still bear to swallow. ‘Six teaspoons of cranberry juice, every half-hour. That’s how critical it got in the end,’ says the mother of four from Kenilworth, near Birming¬ham. ‘I took Laurence out of school in 2001, when he first began refusing food and looked after him at home by myself. Nobody came near us for the next two-and-a-half years.’
    It is just before Christmas and we are in a hotel room on Long Island, just off the coast of New York, on the final stage in Mrs McGowan’s eight¬-year quest to discover what is making her small, pale son so ill. In a few hours, 13-year-old Laurence is to undergo medical tests he could have had years ago in Britain, but has repeatedly been denied by doctors and NHS hospitals. His parents had to borrow £7,000 to finance the trip. But now he will get the tests with two of the very few specialists in the world openly willing to investigate him.
    One is gastroenterologist and paediatrician Dr Arthur Krigsman, an associate professor at New York University. The other is Dr Andrew Wakefield, the clinical researcher driven out of Britain and now living in America after suggesting a link between a new form of bowel disease – which Laurence appears to suffer from – autism and the Measles, Mumps and Rubella
    (MMR) triple vaccination.
    With Laurence the first of a num¬ber of autistic British children the two men have agreed to treat, and parent activists claiming there are at least 2 000 sick children who can’t get treatment in Britain, a great deal hangs on the tests to be carried out on this snowy day in Long Island.
    If they show Laurence has long been suffering from a painful inflamma¬tory disease that has gone untreated in the UK, as Dr Wakefield firmly believes they will, then the entire British political and medical estab¬lishment’s approach to the bitter MMR controversy will be open to new questioning.
    On the other hand, if the endo¬scopies, tissue biopsies and blood tests show nothing, then the reputa¬tion and standing of the already embattled Dr Wakefield will be fur¬ther undermined.
    British doctors have repeatedly insisted there is nothing physically wrong with Laurence. If he is indeed just a ‘fussy eater’, or his bowel prob¬lems are a standard by-product of brain damage, 49-year-old Dr Wake¬field knows he’ll be condemned for encouraging British parents to embark on an arduous and expensive wild-goose chase.
    Laurence began suffering from a strange, undiagnosed gut disorder from the age of five. By nine, he was shunning all food and most liquids. With a swollen, distended belly and stick-thin arms and legs, he weighed just two-and-a-half stone.
    Some time later he did start eating again, but that is when he also began screaming for hours at a time, hitting out violently and waking repeatedly through the night. Alternating between diarrhoea attacks and severe constipation, he also suffered two bowel haemorrhages last year.
    But the many doctors and hospitals his mother approached for help, responded oddly. As soon as she men¬tioned her son was autistic, appoint¬ments were refused or cancelled.
    A letter in Laurence’s thick file of medical notes reveals that a gastro¬enterologist at a Midland’s hospital tried to have him admitted to a psy¬chiatric ward without even examining him. Staff at another hospital sug¬gested Social Services be called in, suspecting Mrs McGowan might be starving her son deliberately. In view of Laurence’s obvious ill health, these responses bewildered his mother.
    ‘Why not just investigate the child? It’s pretty simple, isn’t it?’
    Mrs McGowan says indignantly. ‘No one would even explain to me why he couldn’t have any tests, apart from just saying, over and over again, “It’s his autism. It’s all just part of being autistic.” The best one casualty doc¬tor could do, when I seriously thought Laurence was about to die, was sug¬gest I try organising his food in a dif¬ferent pattern on his plate.’
    So why couldn’t the McGowans get medical help for their son any¬where in Britain? And what of par¬ents’ claims that thousands of other autistic children around the UK are similarly being denied tests and treat¬ment?
    In a six-week investigation, The Mail on Sunday has talked to many parents of autistic children throughout Britain about their experiences.
    One mother says the same gastroenterologist who tried to get Laurence admitted to a psychiatric ward refused to inves¬tigate her desperately ill daughter too, saying only that any tests would be ‘inappropriate’.. What would lead a doctor to say that to a mother pleading for help for her child?
    And why would an NHS consul¬tant in a London teaching hospital tell another parent he would investigate her autistic son’s intestinal problems if he could, but ‘I’m not allowed’?
    The answer is that these children, and their symptoms, are the front line of the battle over MMR, and of claims that the live measles virus in the MMR triple vaccine may be caus¬ing gut and brain damage.
    In an article published in the Lancet medical journal in 1998, Dr Wakefield and a team at London’s Royal Free Hospital claimed to have discovered, in 12 brain-damaged children, a pre¬viously unrecognised bowel disease, later dubbed by Wakefield ‘autistic entero-colitis’.
    Colonoscopies performed on scores of autistic children and teenagers in the United States, Italy and Venezuela have since backed up his claim of an apparently new disease, differing in several crucial ways from the well ¬recognised inflammatory bowel dis¬eases Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis.
    Dr Wakefield’s highly controversial assertion is that this new gut disease may be causing brain damage in cer¬tain vulnerable children, resulting in a particular form of autism.
    Even leaving aside the vexed ques¬tion of whether or not MMR jabs could be one cause of the bowel dam¬age, this theory overturns decades of received medical wisdom; that autism is a genetic brain disorder with which children are born.
    According to the British medical and scientific establishments, this is a baseless medical scare story. They say there is no credible evidence a new form of bowel disease exists in autistic children, let alone that the live measles virus in the MMR jab, first given to children at around 13 months of age, may be causing it.
    Mr Blair declared the matter set¬tled back in October 2002, when his official spokesman boasted at a Downing Street media briefing: ‘We are winning the argument that MMR is safe.’ The PR campaign designed to reassure nervous parents still had some way to go, the spokesman con¬ceded, but ‘intellectually’, the Gov¬ernment was winning its case.
    But this battle is not over, and caught in the middle of no-man’s-land are thousands of children just like Laurence, repeatedly being refused even the most routine investigations. In many cases, doctors are refusing even to see children before announ¬cing that tests aren’t necessary.
    The very few gastroenterologists and paediatricians in Britain who are agreeing to investigate and treat autistic children with bowel disease are doing so not only in secrecy, but even fear. Their names are passed along a network of parent and scien¬tific activists and none was willing to speak publicly.
    A senior paediatric gastroenterolo¬gist at a major London teaching hos¬pital did, however, agree to comment off the record. ‘The points you raise about children with autism having difficulty in accessing medical ser¬vices in Britain are well made and have been of concern to me for some time,’ he said
    One mother says her GP refused to refer her autistic child to the Royal Free where some extremely ill children are still being investigated and treated, on the grounds that the specialists there had been ‘discred¬ited’ for doing this work.
    Finding any form of bowel disease in autistic children is not, it seems, a smart career move these days, so many doctors are refusing even to look. Mrs McGowan says: ‘They’ve all seen what happened to Dr Wake¬field and they’re petrified.’
    Later this year, Dr Wakefield and two former colleagues from the Royal Free face a hearing before the UK’s General Medical Council on charges of professional misconduct relating to their original research. If found guilty all three could be struck off the med¬ical register in the UK.
    The charges relate to Sunday Times allegations that the research was begun at the behest of lawyers act¬ing for some 1,200 parents planning to sue MMR’s three manufacturers, and was partly funded by a £55,000 grant from the Legal Aid Board. Freelance reporter Brian Deer claimed Dr Wakefield concealed this from his fellow researchers and failed to declare the apparent con¬flict of interest to The Lancet when submitting the team’s findings.
    Dr Wakefield, who now runs a clinic for autistic children in Austin, Texas, is currently suing both Mr Deer and The Sunday Times for defamation, and says he is confident he will be cleared by the GMC.
    And he firmly believes the Long Island tests will show Laurence is suffering from bowel disease.
    Breaking a long, self-imposed media silence to speak to The Mail on Sunday, he said: ‘There’s nothing ambiguous or uncertain about Laurence’s condition in my mind. He has all the appearances of a child with intestinal disease.
36. Sue M. February 26, 2006 at 15:23 #

    Jannalou wrote:

    “It is obvious to anyone with decent reading comprehension skills that she is specifically stating that parents who agree with neurodiversity are ignoring their children’s physical symptoms because of their neurodiverse philosophy”.

    – Hey Jannalou, take that chip off your shoulder (you too Sarcastically Yours and Anne). If YOU are interested in getting Nancy’s opinion then e-mail her DIRECTLY… Don’t cry about it here.

    – Sue M.
37. Jannalou February 26, 2006 at 15:59 #

    Sue:
    You said, “Don’t cry about it here.”

    I wasn’t. I was telling you what it was obvious that Nancy meant by her e-mail.

    But then, I shouldn’t be surprised at this response. I have noticed that many of the proponents of the “mercury-induced autism” theory have difficulty with understanding the written word and, more distressingly, responding to valid issues raised in comments made by myself and others who oppose their views.

    *****

    Kev,

    I saw the bit about your daughter being constipated and growing out of it, and I wanted to mention something about my own experiences with the medical establishment, as a person with an undiagnosed disability. All of the incidents I’m about to relate occurred prior to my ADHD diagnosis. (This has to do with digestive tract stuff, so if you don’t want to have to read about bowel movements, don’t read any further.)

    When I was an infant, just starting solid foods, I had very runny stool. Not diarrhea, mind you – just very loose bowel movements. Mom was concerned, and took me to the paediatrician, to said it was nothing to worry about.

    I grew up thinking that having loose stool was normal. It’s not exactly something that you talk about with your friends. And Mom, of course, lost track of it once I was potty-trained.

    After I started menstruating, things became more interesting. The “diarrhea” was worse on the first day of my period, as were my cramps, and it began to be debilitating when I was about fifteen.

    When I was 25, Mom and I watched a video about food allergies (we’re a little weird). One of the things it mentioned was that sometimes if you’re allergic to something, you will crave it in one form and refuse to touch it in another form. That fit me and milk – I’d been refusing to drink milk since I was a pre-teen (it tastes so gross, I don’t understand how anyone can actually like the stuff), but I loved cheese, yogurt, and of course ice cream. So we decided to try cutting milk out of my diet and see if that made any difference.

    And for the first time in my life, I was having normal bowel movements all the time, and those horrible cramps were barely registering.

    Two years ago, I did an elimination diet to see if I was actually allergic to milk, and we learned that I’m definitely lactose intolerant.

    The incredibly sad thing about all of this is that none of the doctors I’ve talked to about this have any idea about why being lactose intolerant would make my cramps worse. The disturbing part is that I spent 25 years of my life thinking that the discomfort I experienced every day was normal, all because my mother’s concerns when I was an infant were discarded as being the unfounded hysteria of a new mother. (I’m the oldest of four children.)

    I admit to not being vigilant about taking my LactAid every time I eat milk products. But I know what will happen, and I weigh the consequences before I partake. (I also keep Immodium in my bathroom cabinet.) I do carry LactAid with me everywhere, the way some people carry things like Advil. You never know when you’ll be offered triple-chocolate ice cream!
38. Jonathan Semetko February 26, 2006 at 19:12 #

    Hi Sue,

    “– If you have issues with anything that Lenny does, I suggest that you go to him directly. As for that teenager… I remember that situation. It really wasn’t that big of a deal…in my opinion… (other than the fact that she was only 15 at the time). Quite frankly, her parents should have been monitoring her computer use more closely.
    – Sue M. ”

    Lenny and I have spoken before and will doubtless, do so again. I will also point those things out here and elsewhere.

    I missed the boat on that one as I spend my summers working where there is no internet, which is when that shenanigan occurred. I am very angry about it and I think that our list mates behavior was unethical start to finish.

    I will agree with you hat EoHarm participation/reading should require parental supervision for kids. It is a scary place, not because of the topics, but because of the membership.

    Just on the side; isn’t it sort of sad that a teenager showed more maturity and grace under fire, than a pack of Mommies and Daddies.
39. Kev February 27, 2006 at 00:07 #

    Um, I’m not sure what to say to that Sue.

    Firstly, its apparently run in (surprise surprise), the Mail on Sunday – the Sunday sister paper of the Daily Mail, arch anti-MMR activists – secondly, a search for that story reveals nothing but anti vaccine links. Even the Daily Mail’s own site strangely doesn’t carry that story.

    But anyway, on to the meat of the story. We seem to be hearing one side of a story here. Ms Corrigan didn’t see fit to interview any of the medics who allegedly refused to treat this young boy.

    Be that as it may, if young Laurence has gastro issues and if no mainstream medic over here treated him for those issues then its criminal negligence and his mother should take it up with the GMC.

    As it is, I don’t know what to say – there’s a lot of odd holes in this whole thing. How long does it take someone to undergo Wakefelds tests? This article seems to have had a publication date of over a month ago.

    I’m further not really sure how this article goes any further in establishing a link between gastro issues and their presence as a diagnostic tool to support a diagnosis of autism.

    _”Hey Jannalou, take that chip off your shoulder (you too Sarcastically Yours and Anne). If YOU are interested in getting Nancy’s opinion then e-mail her DIRECTLY”_

    Bit of a cop out there Sue. What I at least am interested in (and which I’ve asked you to address twice now) is what _your_ opinion and what Nancy claims Neurodiversity stands for. You made it clear you were ammenable to debate – don’t back away now.

    So, do you agree with her that a key component of Neurodiversity is ignoring medical issues that may or may not accompny autism or do you agree with me that thats not the case?
40. Sarcastically Yours February 27, 2006 at 02:29 #

    Don’t cry about it here.

    I’m not crying about it. I’m calling her stupid for making such idiotic assumptions. Big difference between crying and scathing sarcasm.

    And since when do you get the final say as to what people can and cannot post here, in Kev’s blog?
41. EriK Nanstiel February 27, 2006 at 13:42 #

    Kevin, you better delete that article Sue posted… it could violate a copyright law somewhere…

    Unless, of course, you only delete articles you don’t agree with…
42. Kev February 27, 2006 at 13:47 #

    Normally I would Erik but as Sue has quite rightly explained – the original isn’t available and thus I’m happy to let it slide this time.

    And if I only deleted articles I don’t agree with then wouldn’t I have deleted this one? Get a grip amigo.
43. Groupthinker February 27, 2006 at 15:08 #

    There, fixed it.

    “Unless, of course, you only delete articles make movies of morons you don’t agree with…”

    Lemmings are cute and fun.

    Uncle Gier WANTS EWE!
44. Groupthinker February 27, 2006 at 17:40 #

    Kev and his tricky coding continue to undermine the beauty of my posts. Humph!

    “Unless, of course, you only delete -articles- make movies of morons you -don’t- agree with…”

    Lemmings are cute and fun.

    Uncle Gier WANTS EWE!

    Oh, and would all those who post angry messages here touting the Generation Rescue lemming line please check out your leader’s blog? Be proud, you deserve him.

    John Best = Generation Rescue
    Fore Sam = Bigot / homophobe / Nonthinking moron
    John Best = Fore Sam
    you kind of know where this is going, right?
45. culvercitycynic February 27, 2006 at 19:09 #

    Oh, but Betting John deleted all remnants of his “Neurodiveristy Dating Service Program” aka Amauteur Best’s Eugenics Project, didn’t he? SO, then he’s A-OK still with the CEO of the Rescue Angels, um, right?
46. Ms Clark February 27, 2006 at 19:45 #

    Autism Diva has a whole blog entry on Dr. Margaret Bauman’s work with treating “comorbidities.” She spent considerable time in her presentation at the MIND on how awful it was that autistics (adults and kids) don’t get proper medical treatment.

    She also showed that some of the worst “comorbidities” leading to low energy and a lack of ability to learn (the kids were too tired and didn’t feel well) were caused by mitochondrial disorders. These are genetic.

    The kids with the mitochondrial disorders were treated with basically a mixture of OTC supplements compounded at a pharmacy into a powder/mix. She said about maybe 1% of all the autistic kids she sees have these symptoms.

    Kathleen, I and Anne were all there and we all were thrilled that Dr. Bauman was discussing helping kids who felt like garbage because of their illnesses not being addressed.

    So, where’s the “neurodiversity” lack of interest in gut problems, asthma, etc? Amanda has specifically stated what her health issues are and she goes to doctors and gets treated for them, when possible. (Doctors haven’t always taken care of her health properly, right? typical)

    Nancy Hokkanen was just off her twig when she posted that list of physical symptoms that “neurodiversity” proponents supposedly ignore. She was making stuff up and basically libeling the “neurodiversity” proponents. That’s disgusting.

    I spent many, many hours with my ASD child in doctors and therapists offices when xe was growing up. Xe has lots of problems that exist along side xyr ASD. I still address xyr health needs at a doctor’s office. I also take xyr to a dentist.

    Once upon a time I took xyr to an acupuncturist.

    I have asthma. I get it treated. I don’t treasure it as part of my neurodiversity.

    So, question. If I take a prescription drug for any reason to treat physical problems, does that make me a pharmco shill?

    Erik “bright lights big city” Nanstiel will haul his daughter off and get her injected with big pharm Lupron, if the Geiers say that’s a good idea. Is Erik a pharmco shill now?

    Shouldn’t he be trying Saw Palmetto baths first? Maybe some moxibustion? Hey, Erik, watch out for those healing crises, you know Herxheimer reactions and viral die off? All that stuff. If your child get’s really sick it’s a good sign.

    No, really. Just ask Dr. McCandless.

    Re: John Best Jr’s blog. It’s Generation Rescue gold.
    John is speaking what the others of the angels dare not say.

    The sad thing is how autistic Mr. Best presents. There’s a good chance that he’s on the spectrum himself and this obsession with mercury is just a perseveration. His obtuseness is just a perseveration on being right. Now, hitting his kid. That’s not good and can’t be excused. Not taking his kid to doctors because doctors are “snakes”. That’s not right, either.

    We know that Sue M. is died in the wool antivax. I wonder if she is died in the wool anti-doctor?

    Someone one the EoHarm list (Teresa?) ranted about how psychologists and psychiatrists shouldn’t be doing research in autism and dismissed something that a psychiatrist researcher concluded about autism.

    But how about that Lynn Mielke? She’s boy Handley’s doctor. And a psychiatrist.

    How about Dr. McCandless? She’s so “expert” in the immune system. A psychiatrist (specializing in the sex lives of older people) who is doing “research” by messing around with Naltrexone.

    How about Dr. Levinson who almost killed a little boy with IVIG a few weeks ago? He’s a psychiatrist. Doesn’t have hospital privileges but does IV therapy in his office.

    John Best Jr. attacked nurses, but then was reminded that some of the mercury moms were nurses. I think he was attacking nurses for not “shaking” vials of vaccine that didn’t need to be “shaken” to begin with. You can’t really attack MDs either because Dr. Clark (now deceased because he wasn’t chelated for his cancer, I guess) was an MD.

    If only Dr. Clark had gone to Buttar and been chelated and given coffee enemas. He’d be alive now. Right? Erik Nanstiel? Right? Isn’t chemo a bad idea? Erik? Big pharma is bad unless they make Lupron, right? The Lupron manufacturer is also named in one of the autism lawsuits, so they must make a vaccine component. But Erik will give them some money for Lupron.
47. Ms Clark February 27, 2006 at 19:58 #

    “We know that Sue M. is died in the wool antivax. I wonder if she is died in the wool anti-doctor?”

    Ooops, make that “dyed in the wool”.
48. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) February 27, 2006 at 22:13 #

    News:

    John the Bastard doesn’t understand *humour*… and certainly hasn’t figured that it is lost when *quoted out of context*, viz:

    *quote*
    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) :
    A wiz oot hae’in’ a pish… on Hokkanen’s fuckin’ heid!

    We’ll have to make allowances for Dave’s crassness since it’s evident that his pending BA is in the Special Ed. program at the adult day care center.
    *endquote*

    Have to say, JBJr really *is* as stupid as his writing makes him look.
49. Jannalou February 27, 2006 at 22:19 #

    Someone one the EoHarm list (Teresa?) ranted about how psychologists and psychiatrists shouldn’t be doing research in autism and dismissed something that a psychiatrist researcher concluded about autism.

    That makes no sense. Psychiatrists are MDs who chose to focus on psychology. They have all the same initial training as GPs.

    I can understand dismissing psychologists because they aren’t Real Medical Professionals (TM), but if psychiatrists weren’t Real Medical Professionals, they coulsn’t prescribe medication. At all.

    (Of course, I do realize that the next thing will be that psychiatrists should be mistrusted because they are all shills for Big Pharma.)
50. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) February 27, 2006 at 22:27 #

    JBJr issues again:

    *quote*
    Oh and you might be amazed to know that yours are the only comments I regularly delete – and its not because I’m worried by anything that you say, its because you’re a racist homophobe who gets his kicks hitting his autistic son. Sorry, I thought that was clear.
    *endquote*

    If that is true, I hope someone’s reported the bastard to the DFCS.

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