“It’s understood that Hollywood sells Californication”
~ Red Hot Chilli Peppers
In this section I want to look at Kirby’s presentation regarding what he terms as the first of seven skeptical rebuttals to the autism/thiomersal hypothesis. He says that skeptics say:
Hmm. Not really. I think most people are agreed that autism is a ‘mix’ of genes and environment. However, this is a popular and recurring strawman from the anti-thiomersal hypothesisers – that thiomersal and environment are interchangeable. They’re not. Maybe ice cream is the environmental trigger for autism. What science _is_ pretty sure about however, is that thiomersal (i.e. one _possible_ environmental ‘trigger’) is _not_ in the frame. So straight away we can see the Kirby is proceeding from a misleading position. If his argument is so strong, why does he feel the need to do this I wonder?
However, the point Kirby is (misleadingly) making is to try and push the idea of there having been an epidemic. Lets see how he does this.
(A lot of the next section has been amply covered by Mike – I won’t repeat his work)
NB: The years Kirby refers to here are between 1988 – 1992.
Guess what else happened around that time?
In 1987, one year before the time period Kirby is talking about, the DSM (III-R) was published. This was a revision to the previously published (1980) DSM (III). Here’s what the DSM (III) criteria was for what it called ‘Diagnostic criteria for Infantile Autism’- this is in full by the way:
A. Onset before 30 months of age
B. Pervasive lack of responsiveness to other people (autism)
C. Gross deficits in language development
D. If speech is present, peculiar speech patterns such as immediate and delayed echolalia, metaphorical language, pronominal reversal.
E. Bizarre responses to various aspects of the environment, e.g., resistance to change, peculiar interest in or attachments to animate or inanimate objects.
F. Absence of delusions, hallucinations, loosening of associations, and incoherence as in Schizophrenia.
So that is the sole and only reference for autism in 1980. Next up, this is the 1987 revision – DSM (III-R):
Diagnostic Criteria for Autistic Disorder
At least eight of the following sixteen items are present, these to include at least two items from A, one from B, and one from C.
A. Qualitative impairment in reciprocal social interaction (the examples within parentheses are arranged so that those first listed are more likely to apply to younger or more disabled, and the later ones, to older or less disabled) as manifested by the following:
1.Marked lack of awareness of the existence or feelings of others (for example, treats a person as if that person were a piece of furniture; does not notice another person’s distress; apparently has no concept of the need of others for privacy);
2. No or abnormal seeking of comfort at times of distress (for example, does not come for comfort even when ill, hurt, or tired; seeks comfort in a stereotyped way, for example, says “cheese, cheese, cheese” whenever hurt);
3. No or impaired imitation (for example, does not wave bye-bye; does not copy parent’s domestic activities; mechanical imitation of others’ actions out of context);
4. No or abnormal social play (for example, does not actively participate in simple games; refers solitary play activities; involves other children in play only as mechanical aids); and
5. Gross impairment in ability to make peer friendships (for example, no interest in making peer friendships despite interest in making fiends, demonstrates lack of understanding of conventions of social interaction, for example, reads phone book to uninterested peer.
B. Qualitative impairment in verbal and nonverbal communication and in imaginative activity, (the numbered items are arranged so that those first listed are more likely to apply to younger or more disabled, and the later ones, to older or less disabled) as manifested by the following:
1. No mode of communication, such as: communicative babbling, facial expression, gesture, mime, or spoken language;
2. Markedly abnormal nonverbal communication, as in the use of eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, or gestures to initiate or modulate social interaction (for example, does not anticipate being held, stiffens when held, does not look at the person or smile when making a social approach, does not greet parents or visitors, has a fixed stare in social situations);
3. Absence of imaginative activity, such as play-acting of adult roles, fantasy character or animals; lack of interest in stories about imaginary events;
4. Marked abnormalities in the production of speech, including volume, pitch, stress, rate, rhythm, and intonation (for example, monotonous tone, question-like melody, or high pitch);
5. Marked abnormalities in the form or content of speech, including stereotyped and repetitive use of speech (for example, immediate echolalia or mechanical repetition of a television commercial); use of “you” when “I” is meant (for example, using “You want cookie?” to mean “I want a cookie”); idiosyncratic use of words or phrases (for example, “Go on green riding” to mean “I want to go on the swing”); or frequent irrelevant remarks (for example, starts talking about train schedules during a conversation about ports); and
6. Marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others, despite adequate speech (for example, indulging in lengthy monologues on one subject regardless of interjections from others);
C. Markedly restricted repertoire of activities and interests as manifested by the following:
1. Stereotyped body movements (for example, hand flicking or twisting, spinning, head-banging, complex whole-body movements);
2. Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (for example, sniffing or smelling objects, repetitive feeling of texture of materials, spinning wheels of toy cars) or attachment to unusual objects (for example, insists on carrying around a piece of string);
3. Marked distress over changes in trivial aspects of environment (for example, when a vase is moved from usual position);
4. Unreasonable insistence on following routines in precise detail (for example, insisting that exactly the same route always be followed when shopping);
5. Markedly restricted range of interests and a preoccupation with one narrow interest, e.g., interested only in lining up objects, in amassing facts about meteorology, or in pretending to be a fantasy character.
D. Onset during infancy or early childhood
Specify if childhood onset (after 36 months of age)
Slight difference huh? Of key importance – in 1980 we only had ‘infantile autism’. In 1987, we had ‘autistic disorder’.
The DSM (III-R) is a quantum leap in diagnostic precision (far from perfect of course and as we all know the DSM (IV) came along in 1994 and the DSM (IV-R) came along in 2000) but surely it is blindingly obvious what a massively more accurate and precise set of criteria must mean – better recognition. More diagnosis.
Now Kirby says that this increase ties in to the ‘spike in mercury in vaccines’ over the same time period. Could be. But lets _also_ not forget that – as Kirby says in this debate – you need clinical science to support a clinical idea such as thiomersal causing autism.
Nine years now and there is _not one_ paper that even suggests that the symptoms of autism can be attributed to thiomersal (or MMR, or both together come to that). Nine years. In terms of science this hypothesis has four papers that might be considered of publishable quality. One shows that if you take a strain of mice known for aggressiveness and severely overdose them with thiomersal then they get more aggressive. Another shows that if you take a control group high in mercury levels and compare them with new born babies then the babies will look like poor excretors of mercury. The third shows that ethyl mercury and methyl mercury cannot be used to represent each other. The last one shows that thimerosal might cause methionine synthase dysfunction (MSD) – a condition that bears no resemblance to autism.
So here we are with the thiomersal hypothesis resting squarely and solely on epidemiology. Once upon a time, Kirby said CDDS epidemiology was ‘the gold standard’ – now he says its not enough. However, make no mistake. Epidemiology is all this hypothesis has.
So what is the state of this epidemiology? Is it of good quality? Well, no. As Mike has shown (see link above) Kirby’s presentation numbers are awful. As I have shown, his opinion of CDDS fluctuates depending on whether the numbers work for him or not and as Jospeh has shown, his new source is equally as badly reported on as his initial take on CDDS was.
Another example of the epidemiology not only not working for Kirby but being actively manipulated is this:
Have a close look at that graph. Remember in the previous slide Kirby said that the biggest increase in thiomersal was between 1988 and 1992. Take a close look at the dates in _this_ slide. They start in 1993. That’s pretty misleading Mr Kirby. Tut-tut-tut.
Also in this slide I want you to notice that according to this data that Kirby is using, the numbers are continuing to climb in 2001, 2002 and 2003. However, we know from a recently discovered CDC set of meeting minutes that according to a survey, in September 2001, only 5.6%1 of _all vaccines_ contained thiomersal. By Feb 2002, only 1.9% of _all vaccines_ contained thiomersal.
So apparently, Mr Kirby is happy to use data from two sources that shows an increasing amount of autism. CDDS and IDEA data. Both show climbing autism against a backdrop of miniscule amounts of mercury in the general population.
Danger, Will Robinson. Does not compute.
(More Californication to come soon….stay tuned…)
Left Brain Right Brain 
Hi Margaret :o)
_”For the life of me I can’t understand the level of hatred between the two factions of parents. You Kev and your group of like minded people and Mr. Handley and his group aka “mercury militia†really seem to despise each other with a passion.”_
I don’t despise Brad as I don’t know him. I think his position is morally and scientifically bankrupt.
Politeness is something I expect and freely give when people frequent my blog – same as I would my home – if people cross that line then I respond in kind. Brad was no exception. Here’s my first ever communication with Brad. Please make up your own mind as to who is polite and who is not.
_”I understand you feel autism has not increased, but has remained constant (I must say I think you are wrong on that). So regardless of incidence rates do you think the environment can play a role in someone having autism. Yes or no?”_
Yes. But that is just my opinion. I’m also open to the idea that incidence may have changed but prevalence has not.
_”So, why is epidemiological studies the end of the line in the autism quest?”_
HN has answered the US study part of your question I think. I don’t think epi studies should be the end of the line as such but I do think in this instance that so many different sources of epidemiology don’t show an epidemic and there are none that do that we have to look at the balance of probability.
_”Why wouldn’t you want biological studies just to shut the Mercury parents up?”_
Well firstly, I think that its not really about them. I’m not interested in ‘beating’ them or scoring points from the. What I _am_ interested in is science that really can make a difference to autistic peoples lives in positive ways. Over here we’ve wasted getting on for £16m and nine years looking for an MMR association. At some point we have to say – guys, its just not there to be found, lets stop wasting money on this and move on.
_”Do you have any concerns about types and the number of vaccines children receive? I’m pretty sure you wil say “no†to be true to your position.”_
I’ve got no way of coming out of that one well have I? ;o)
_”Do we really understand how the immune system of infants and children handle all the vaccines, all the medicines (my son was on lots of antibiotics, cough medicines, anti-histimines, Tylenol etc..), all the pollution, all the chemicals in the environment etc….”_
No, but in the context of autism causation these things are irrelevant. My sole interest in this respect is – do vaccines cause autism.
_”I hope I don’t get made fun of for asking these questions, but I really am concerned about these things.”_
No one will make fun of you for being genuinely concerned.
_”I honestly want to know if anything in the environment has contributed to the increase in autism vaccines included. Along with other neurological and behavorial disorders and other immune related diseases.”_
And to me thats a loaded point. First stop: has there actually been an increase? If there has then where is the evidence for it?
_”The bickering and character assassinations between parents doesn’t really help parents sort it out either. JMO.”_
But they’ve led to you asking questions – that’s good right?
Something interesting from that old post by Kev:
“My son Jamison is 2 yrs, 10 months old. Since we began chelation therapy with him in October 2004, he has improved dramatically: eye contact up 1000-fold, receptive language nearing age appropriate, 100+ words from mute, interested in other children for the first time, and, perhaps most importantly, so much healthier.”
I recall he repeated the 100-word thing some months ago, and he said Jamison was 3. How is it going, Brad, after what, almost 2.5 years of chelation?
I understand Jamison was diagnosed at the age of 16 months (!), right? He was mute at 16 months?! Wow, that’s unheard of.
Joseph
But having an older child on the spectrum then having another, knowing the symptoms, and history of my other children, a mute child WAS a cause for concern for me. Mute is definitely common among 16 month olds, but not the ‘norm’. Not to open up another can of worms, but after a week on those evil MB12 shots, we began getting words out of her. Not a cure, but a possibly helping her work nutritionally through her genetic issues.
Margaret
While I see your point about these war-ing factions, I still feel that I get something out of BOTH sides. I understand that most have the autistic children (and adults) at heart. These arguments can get heated and occasionally vicious because both sides feel they are fighting for the lives of autistics; I feel that both sides are…
Mute is definitely common among 16 month olds, but not the ‘norm’. Not to open up another can of worms, but after a week on those evil MB12 shots, we began getting words out of her. Not a cure, but a possibly helping her work nutritionally through her genetic issues.
One of my kids talked around that time. She started doing so after we stopped giving her the bottle altogether. Could the two have been related? Perhaps. But it’s also very possible it’s coincidence.
HN
The epidemiological studies you mention are not based in the ideas of genetic epidemiology. IMHO, a complex condition such as autism needs to be studied considering genetic epidemiology.
Some (very) recent studies about the importance of genetic epidemiology
“Genetic polymorphisms and disease prevention”:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17252563&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum”
Even more, Genetic epidemiology has specific and its own rules
“Accumulating quantitative trait linkage evidence across multiple datasets using the posterior probability of linkage.”:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17123305&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum
“Simple methods for assessing haplotype-environment interactions in case-only and case-control studies.”:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17123302&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum
“Detecting epistatic interactions contributing to quantitative traits”:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15305330&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum
Therefore, to study autism we need to consider epistatic interactions, to begin with, and special analysis related to genetic epidemiology that have been not explored yet in autism. Even more, GE is also in development more and more to be related to genes-environment interactions.
My daughter (who is not autistic) started saying a few words at the precocious age of 6 months, although she showed no interest at all in trying to talk before that age.
What made the difference? I tried feeding her baby food from a jar, which she hated. She yelled “No,” made terrible faces at me, and soon started pointing at other people’s food and saying “Get.”
Kids can be a lot more interested in communicating when there’s something going on that they don’t like…
“One of my kids talked around that time. She started doing so after we stopped giving her the bottle altogether. Could the two have been related? Perhaps. But it’s also very possible it’s coincidence.”
My daughter made some great progress with some speech therapy too, perhaps that is a coincidence too. Maybe her going to a autistic preschool didn’t help her being able to follow instructions, it would’ve occurred naturally. Vomiting stopped after GF/CF, nothin’ to do with one another. At what point am I to attribute what we are doing to her progress and what am I to consider coincidence? Am I not allowed some observational/testimonial ‘evidence’ without some broad epidemiological study agreeing with me?
Bill
Hi Bill
You say
At what point am I to attribute what we are doing to her progress and what am I to consider coincidence?
Am I not allowed some observational/testimonial ‘evidence’ without some broad epidemiological study agreeing with me?
I question me about this and more: How do I separate natural maturation, placebo effect, true effect of an intervention and the combined effect of the educational and nutritional/biomedical intervention plus all the infinite little big situations with his sister and us, his teachers and his peers? In terms of biochemical/biomedical, I have considered that the rational use of clinical analysis has been wonderful. In general terms, for my son, I consider that the progress is the combination of approaches-and including his effort to communicate and to interact, that are encouraged but not pushed.
I have wondered about how do we compare an individual progress ( with an individual in a family, a community and certain society and certain resources) as resulting- as I think- of the combination of approaches- of different kinds- and emotional support with epi- that in general is narrow focused on one thing?
Do you know the request of opinions for a study of the CDC
“Public Responses to RFI for a Study or Studies Regarding the Potential Association of Vaccine Adverse Events and Human Genetic Variations”?
Hi,
I don’t have autism. I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I’ve just been reading a report from a CFS conference, and reportedly one CFS doctor said that mothers with CFS have a much greater chance of having autistic children.
So I was wondering if anyone knew of any data on this subject from the autism side of things?
Ms. Clark said:
“I’m really getting tired of people pretending that they know immunology better than an MD. This “overloading†their tiny systems thing is bunk. We are surrounded by nasty germs, they are EVERYWHERE. A few years ago I remember someone cultured the germs found on a fliter for an airconditioner or swamp cooler or something… it had gobs of scary stuff including the bacteria that causes leprosy growing on it. We are eating germs all the time and breathing them into our lungs, rubbing them into our eyes, they get into our bodies through cuts….”
I don’t know immunology better than an MD. I’m just beginning to study this. However, despite that there needs to be more research with greater numbers of subjects, there is supporting evidence that some autistic people may have an autoimmune disorder as well. As for whether this is causative or simply just another potential diagnostic symptom, only time will tell. But it seems to me that neither are you an MD to scoff. Being skeptical is one thing; shutting down to learning new information is another.
Ms. Clark said:
“Most vaccines don’t have “viruses†in them they have parts of dead viruses in them. An inactive virus is not a virus. People would rather their kid have a quantillion gajillion measles viruses in their kid from a real measles infection than let the kid get a miniscule amount of the weakened live measles virus… oh but wait, there are those horrific ajuvants”
The German Measles or Rubella vaccine is a live attenuated virus:
“In individuals who cannot mount effective immune responses to clear the virus, a live viral vaccine, although attenuated, may cause persistent infection in certain tissues. One of the major concerns regarding vaccine safety has been raised on the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine, which contains a live attenuated measles virus strain. Measles virus infection is usually controlled by the immune system and cleared from the body. However, in immune-deficient hosts, either wild-type strain or the attenuated strain can establish persistent infection (Krause et al. for review, 2002).”
Also, if you’re under the impression that dead viruses are “dead” and don’t create an immune response, just look at the listing of side effects of vaccinations on the CDC website:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vaccine/side-effects.htm#dtap
MMR, 1 out of 6 people will develop a fever (sounds like an immune response to me); DTaP, fever in 1 in 4 (immune response?); however, no fevers are reported for just the Td shots (i.e., no pertussis).
The fact is, everybody is different and every individual vaccine is different (as evidenced by the reactions to the DTaP and the Td), and for a group of people who have compromised immune systems, vaccinations could potentially have a lot more serious effects.
Are autoimmune disorders so unbelievable??
K said:
“Hi,
I don’t have autism. I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I’ve just been reading a report from a CFS conference, and reportedly one CFS doctor said that mothers with CFS have a much greater chance of having autistic children.
So I was wondering if anyone knew of any data on this subject from the autism side of things?”
One study I’m aware of did a survey to see the frequency of immune disorders in the families of autistics, although I don’t think it included CFS. Not to say there isn’t a higher correlation, but just in this particular study I don’t know if they were looking for CFS. Here’s a summary on the study:
“…the families of 61 children with autistic disorder and 46 normal controls were surveyed to evaluate the frequency of autoimmune disorders in the family and various suspected associated prenatal and postnatal events. The mean number of autoimmune disorders was greater in families who had children with autistic disorder; 46% of families in the experimental [autistic] group had two or more members with autoimmune dysfunction. If the frequency of family members with autoimmune disorders increased from one to three, the risk of autistic disorder in the child increased. In mothers and first-degree relatives of children with autistic disorder, there were more reports of autoimmune disorders. The most common autoimmune disorders were type 1 diabetes, adult rheumatoid arthritis, hypothyriodism, and [lupus].”
K – Do you have a citation for _this_ please?
“I’ve just been reading a report from a CFS conference, and reportedly one CFS doctor said that mothers with CFS have a much greater chance of having autistic children.”
“there is supporting evidence that some autistic people may have an autoimmune disorder as well.”
Not very surprising, IMO. You can be autistic *and* have something else, besides. And not *every* other condition an autistic person has is necesserily directly (or even indirectly) connected to autism. If x proportion of people are autistic and y proportion have an autoimmune disease, then at least x*y will be autistic and have an autoimmune disease even if there is no connection between the two. Is there any study that indicates if autistic people *themselves* tend to have more autoimmune diseases than we might normally expect? Until there is, I’m very skeptical of the idea that autism is itself directly caused by post-natal autoimmune disease. (And the idea that autoimmune disease can be caused by vaccines is itself a highly questionable and unproven claim as well. Many autoimmune diseases were “discovered” before vaccines and I am not aware of any study which establishes this correlation, never mind causation.)
A more realistic theory might be that autism and autoimmune diseases are somehow genetically associated. Or maybe, somewhat more implausibly, being exposed to the womb of a mother with autoimmune disease might somehow increase the chances of autism. But even these ideas are still highly speculative, and there are many questions which need to be answered if we are to accept them. But the idea that vaccines cause autoimmune disease which then cause autism strikes me as highly implausible. (How can an immune response, or autoimmune disease, cause or even contribute to a neurological condition? Why is autism present from at least early childhood, but autoimmune diseases generally are not? Etc, etc. I’m certainly no expert, but on the face of it it seems rather biologically implausible, no?)
CFSer – it looks like it was just a remark made at a CFS conference held last week in Florida. The report is only a patient’s report, there is nothing formal about this at all.
It says “Mothers with CFS have 3-4 times perhaps even 10 times more chance of having autistic children. He’s collecting data on this now.”
http://phoenix-cfs.org/PR%20SP%20ED%20IACFS%20Conf%20II%2007.htm
So I just wondered if anything like this was being looked at from the autism side, like the sort of thing that Sophist mentioned.
Sarah – “How can an immune response, or autoimmune disease, cause or even contribute to a neurological condition?” – why can’t it? When I read about Virus Induced CNS Dysfunction – that sounds like what you’re describing? (Again I’m talking about CFS.)
Hi
This manuscript abstract sumarizes the status of the art , apparently, including different mechanisms.
J Autoimmun. 2005;25 Suppl:74-80. Epub 2005 Nov 8.
Infections and autoimmune diseases.Bach JF.
The high percentage of disease-discordant pairs of monozygotic twins demonstrates the central role of environmental factors in the etiology of autoimmune diseases. Efforts were first focussed on the search for triggering factors. The study of animal models has clearly shown that infections may trigger autoimmune diseases, as in the case of Coxsackie B4 virus in type I diabetes and the encephalomyocarditis virus in autoimmune myositis, two models in which viruses are thought to act by increasing immunogenicity of autoantigens secondary to local inflammation. The induction of a Guillain-Barre syndrome in rabbits after immunization with a peptide derived from Campylobacter jejuni is explained by mimicry between C. jejuni antigens and peripheral nerve axonal antigens. Other models involve chemical modification of autoantigens, as in the case of iodine-induced autoimmune thyroiditis. These mechanisms have so far only limited clinical counterparts (rheumatic fever, Guillain-Barre syndrome and drug-induced lupus or myasthenia gravis) but one may assume that unknown viruses may be at the origin of a number of chronic autoimmune diseases, such as type I diabetes and multiple sclerosis) as illustrated by the convergent data incriminating IFN-alpha in the pathophysiology of type I diabetes and systemic lupus erythematosus. Perhaps the difficulties met in identifying the etiologic viruses are due to the long lag time between the initial causal infection and onset of clinical disease. More surprisingly, infections may also protect from autoimmune diseases. Western countries are being confronted with a disturbing increase in the incidence of most immune disorders, including autoimmune and allergic diseases, inflammatory bowel diseases, and some lymphocyte malignancies. Converging epidemiological evidence indicates that this increase is linked to improvement of the socio-economic level of these countries, posing the question of the causal relationship and more precisely the nature of the link. Epidemiological and clinical data support the hygiene hypothesis according to which the decrease of infections observed over the last three decades is the main cause of the incessant increase in immune disorders. The hypothesis does not exclude an etiological role for specific pathogens in a given immune disorder as might notably be the case in inflammatory bowel diseases. Even in this setting, infections could still have a non-specific protective role. Independently of the need for confirmation by epidemiological prospective studies, the hygiene hypothesis still poses numerous questions concerning the nature of protective infectious agents, the timing of their involvement with regard to the natural history of immune diseases and, most importantly, the mechanisms of protection. Four orders of mechanisms are being explored. Antigenic competition is the first hypothesis (immune responses against pathogens compete with autoimmune and allergic responses). This is probably an important mechanism but its modalities are still elusive in spite of considerable experimental data. Its discussion in the context of homeostatic regulation of lymphocyte pools has shed new light on this hypothesis with possible competition for self MHC peptide recognition and interleukin-7. Another hypothesis deals with immunoregulation. Infectious agents stimulate a large variety of regulatory cells (Th2, CD25+, Tr1, NKT, …) whose effects extend to other specificities than those which triggered their differentiation (bystander suppression). Infectious agents may also intervene through components which are not recognized as antigens but bind to specific receptors on cells of the immune system. Major attention has recently been drawn to Toll receptors (expressed on macrophages and possibly on regulatory T cells) and TIM proteins present on Th cells, which may express the function of the virus receptor (as in the case of the Hepatitis A virus and Tim-1). Experimental data will be presented to support each of these hypotheses. In any event, the final proof of principle will be derived from therapeutic trials where the immune disorders in question will be prevented or better cured by products derived from protective infectious agents. Numerous experimental data are already available in several models. Preliminary results have also been reported in atopic dermatitis using bacterial extracts and probiotics.
It has been published also “here”:http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/5/e420 that there is Increased Prevalence of Familial Autoimmunity in Probands With Pervasive Developmental Disorders.
Phil
Would you be interested in a personal
(mine) definition of environment and the discussion of?
Thank you in advance
Maria – unless you are prepared to put it in layman’s terms (ie in a way everyone can understand) – the answer is no.
I gave up trying to understand your previous post after the first paragraph!
Phil, sorry. I apologize. I was including the abstract of the manuscript I mentioned for Sarah and K , this was not my explanation. If you are particularly interested in something I post/posted in layman terms, please let me know and I will explain the abstract of the manuscript the best I can, if you are interested, by e-mail.
Environment includes FOR ME the air my son breathed, the food and water he consumed, the infections he had- not vaccine preventible-, the antibiotics/other medications/chemicals/others he was exposed to-including the vaccines (overall schedule, overall composition including potential contamination).
Besides this,environment also includes the interactions with us, his family, and with nannys and with kinder the first years of his life.
These interactions exposed him to a lot of infections/pathogens-mainly in kinder-but also were important in emotional/attachment/well-being for him. For me is important to consider the health status, the physical environment(stimulus-light, noises, smells,tactile -, toys or games related to interests) and the emotional environment(attention, affection, demonstrations of love/affection and importance, shared time). The point is that the way the emotional/physical environment can be processed first years of life depends very much of the health status , and very much of the integrative sensorial system.
what do you think?
please, if I am not clear, let me know. Remember that english is my second language 🙂
If a given child gets a fever from an injection of a few weakened viruses plus whatever ajuvants are in there (I don’t know what they put in with MMR usually), then what shape would that same child be in when faced with a gajillion NON-weakened wild viruses? We all know Bradstreet’s a goof, but even he said that wild measles could cause autism, why wouldn’t wild (not to say rampaging) measles, mumps or rubbella do worse than any vaccine?
Excuse me? It’s as if people think the only dangerous germs or germ particles a kid could run into are in a syringe, and the world out there is not only germ free but mercury and aluminum free. It’s bizarre.
*Sophist,of course I don’t think a “dead virus” can’t induce an immune response*. THAT’S WHY they inject the dead viruses into people, to induce an immune response! You know, make antibodies?
The difference is that the immune response to a few dead virus particles is quantitatively different than the immune response mounted in when the body has been invaded by a few galliion constantly replicating live viruses. You see, the flu virus for example, gets into a cell and makes bunches and bunches of copies of itself until the cells explodes, releasing those new viruses and each of those viruses can enter a cell… well, it’s a sort of science fiction nightmare if you look at little pictures… sometimes the body goes whacko and kills itself in the process of defending itself against the flu. Cool. Good reason for everyone to want to get a nice herd immunity going, because even babies die of the flu.
If everyone decides that maybe they’ll wait on the childhood vaccines, then lots and lots of people are in trouble, including some of those who decided to wait.
After you read up on immunology and vaccinology, how ’bout you read up on the history of public health? You might try “Betrayal of Trust” by Laurie Garrett. There are a couple good books out there about the 1917 flu pandemic where young people’s lungs turned to jelly within hours of being exposed to the flu, where people dropped in the streets, and where only one small island in the whole world escaped serious numbers of deaths from flu and complications like pneumonia.
It sounds to me like you are confusing an immune response with autoimmune disease. I don’t know if there is any evidence that autistic babies have autoimmune disorders, or that normal babies can be made autistic by giving them an autoimmune disorder by any means. There’s a hypothesis that a mom could be sending her immune cells into the fetus (a few of moms’ cells do enter the fetus and they can be found in some, perhaps all males, because they have are the wrong sex to be in a male). I don’t know how that would rewire a brain, but I can’t argue that it couldn’t happen, since David Amaral PhD says it could, but we are talking prenatal, and not the kid’s own autoimmune disease.
Probably off-topic, but B12 for autism is closely related to the thimerosal hysteria.
Good thing not too many parents are likely to have had their autistic kids get stem cell injections plus B12 shots, the way I’m reading this… which could be wrong… those two look like they’d be a really bad combo.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/cancer/mg19325852.400-cancer-warning-over-stem-cell-therapies.html
bq. Cancer warning over stem cell therapies
06 January 2007
bq. IT is another obstacle for stem cell therapies to overcome. Two groups have independently shown that stem cells can trigger cancers, and offer an explanation as to why this is. They also suggest a way of screening cells to reduce the risk.
bq. When the teams compared patterns of gene activity in stem cells from healthy and cancerous tissue they found that those from cancers were often locked in a state in which they carry on multiplying as primitive stem cells, instead of maturing into specific tissues such as the breast or ovary.
bq. The change seems to be triggered by the deactivation of a group of genes known as polycomb genes, which in cancers were more likely than usual to be switched off by a chemical process called *methylation.* “When they’re in this state they divide more, and in the process may accumulate additional mutations which ultimately turn them cancerous,” says Ian Jacobs, director of the lab at University College London where one study was carried out.
bq. He suggests screening cells for telltale methylation patterns to weed out dangerous ones. This could also be a way of diagnosing cancer early (Nature Genetics, DOI: 10.1038ng1941 and 1950).??
I’m sorry to make sweeping, unscientifically backed generalizations, but it just seems to me that we have a newborn child with, what you must surely agree, an immature immune system. You are innundating this immature immune system with a dozen of the most scary, albeit ‘neutered’, viruses we have. Now, I know all these have been thoroughly tested to not cause any adverse effects, but how have we tested their cumulative effect?
Again, I am not equating all autism = vaccines, but I am questioning whether we are being over zealous in our early herd immunity strategy. Shouldn’t we give these developing immune system a little bit of a break? Isn’t is possible that the ‘scrum’ of forced immunity might be harming a sector of the population, possibly even having an impact on the development of certain autistics?
Actually livsparents, your suggestion was subject to what one might call a “natural experiment” in the 1970s and 1980s, with the diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis shot. A lawyer- and media- driven panic led to immunisation levels dropping to around 35%, followed by outbreaks of whooping cough, which led to clusters of children coughing themselves to death or disability. Without wishing to be too gory, they coughed their brains out. The deaths, in particular, ended the scare as media then drove immunisation levels back up again.
You can read the background here:
http://briandeer.com/dtp-dpt-vaccine.htm
There is actually at least a logically plausible argument to follow the rationale of your speculation, and allow MMR immunisation levels to collapse in the same way. Probably, a few dozen children would die of measles (sometimes rather horrifically), and maybe a few hundred would be permanently impaired in some way, before the lesson was learnt by a new generation of journalists and parents, and immunisation levels restored. In the great scheme of life, some might at least argue, that’s not a lot of suffering.
What do you think? Worth giving it a try?
I’m not suggesting herd immunity be abandoned altogether, just rethinking the rapid-fire succession of vaccinations from almost literally birth to 18 months and beyond. There have been many good suggestions as to spacing out the vaccination schedule better to allow the young immune system to recover before moving on to the next vaccine.
Frankly, it is the fear mongering on both sides that get my goad up. “Stop all vaccines, they are causing ALL autism” or “Allowing exemptions/extentions or questioning the vaccine schedule in any way is tantamount to genocide to those relying on herd immunity.”
I think we can question the vaccine schedule, look into the cumulative effects of immunizing infants WITHOUT causing a drop in percentages in the herd.
I could also paraphrase your argument back at you:
“Probably, a few children do die of adverse reactions to the measles/mumps/rubella vaccine (sometimes rather horrifically), and maybe a few hundred MIGHT be permanently impaired in some way due to adverse reactions of cumulative immunity, before the lesson was learnt by a new generation of journalists and parents, and immunisation schedules are rethought. In the great scheme of life, some might at least argue, that’s not a lot of suffering.”
I know your argument is more factually based than mine, I just feel that it is worth the effort to look at the possibility that there is something to this argument, unless someone can cite a study that has already done this…
Ms. Clark said:
“It sounds to me like you are confusing an immune response with autoimmune disease. I don’t know if there is any evidence that autistic babies have autoimmune disorders, or that normal babies can be made autistic by giving them an autoimmune disorder by any means. There’s a hypothesis that a mom could be sending her immune cells into the fetus (a few of moms’ cells do enter the fetus and they can be found in some, perhaps all males, because they have are the wrong sex to be in a male). I don’t know how that would rewire a brain, but I can’t argue that it couldn’t happen, since David Amaral PhD says it could, but we are talking prenatal, and not the kid’s own autoimmune disease.”
Believe it or not, I do understand the difference between an immune response and an autoimmune disorder. Please don’t act condescendingly towards me because you disagree, Ms. Clark. I said I am new to studying immunology; I didn’t say I’m stupid.
The question becomes though, how exactly, for an undxed autoimmune disorder, do you separate out the healthy immune kids from the unhealthy? How to you differentiate and say “Well this kid here, their immune response was within the normal range, but this one over here, that’s a sign of an immune disorder.” For the DPaT, 1 in 4 kids get a fever following this vaccination; for MMR, 1 in 6. The thing is, obvious immune reactions (i.e., the kind the parent can see) are not uncommon. So how do you tell the difference??
You know, I don’t have an answer to this problem because this isn’t a perfect world, finding a balance between the health of the individual and the health of the masses. I DO understand the history of edipemic outbreaks and that the needs of the many should be greater than that of any one individual. But then on an individual level for a person who may have an immune sensitivity to something you are injecting into their arm, what do you do? Say, sorry kid, I know you’re in an at-risk group due to family genetics, but you have to be vaccinated.
There’s evidence in studies being done that some kids who get inoculated DO NOT develop the proper antibodies so the inoculation inevitably does SQUAT; the T cells never develop for that particular virus.
In other cases of immune disorders, there’s evidence to show that environmental insults are enough to activate an inactive disorder.
So, AS A COMPROMISE, do blood testing and genetic testing on at-risk infants to test for some of the most common autoimmune abnormalities being found in the samples so far. If they show up negative, inoculate. If they show positive, then it’s up to the parents as to what’s to be done.
I am talking about practicality and application. I am talking about compromising. I am talking about taking into account BOTH the needs of the few in tandem with the needs of the many.
Brian Deer said:
“Actually livsparents, your suggestion was subject to what one might call a “natural experiment†in the 1970s and 1980s, with the diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis shot. A lawyer- and media- driven panic led to immunisation levels dropping to around 35%, followed by outbreaks of whooping cough, which led to clusters of children coughing themselves to death or disability. Without wishing to be too gory, they coughed their brains out. The deaths, in particular, ended the scare as media then drove immunisation levels back up again.”
I would like to point out though, Brian, that this scare did lead to a new and less reactive version of the Pertussis.
Perhaps it might be better for pharmaceutical companies to not wait till there’s an epidemic to try and rework their vaccinations.
I know there’s never a perfect vaccine, but that’s no reason not to try to continue to improve. Other than money of course, hehe.
Sophist said:
There’s evidence in studies being done that some kids who get inoculated DO NOT develop the proper antibodies so the inoculation inevitably does SQUAT; the T cells never develop for that particular virus.
This happened to my son. After being fully vaccinated with all recommended vaccines. He showed zero antibodies to polio and diptheria. Nothing, nada.
I wonder how often vaccines don’t “take”?
I wonder how many children with ASD show zero immunity to certain viruses/diseases after being immunized for them?
Anymore information on the study you made reference to? I would be interested in learning more about this.
Thanks
Margaret said “I wonder how often vaccines don’t “takeâ€?”
Actually, that depends on the vaccine. It could be up to 15% for pertussis. You can look up papers that study the effectiveness of each vaccine in Pubmed, like this one:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17098950#r3-16
Absolutely NO one has said that vaccines are 100% effective (that is a lie perpetuated by some voiciferous anti-vax loons). Which is why the vaccine schedule usually includes a booster shot… and 1% to 3% of those vaccinated may still be vulnerable.
This is why it is important to keep herd immunity up. Whenever it is compromised (like in Brian Deer’s example above) the diseases come back, often with tragic results (look up what happened with measles in the USA during 1989-1991).
So if your son did not develop an immunity to either polio or diphtheria it may be just part of the odds. My son has never been vaccinated against pertussis because of a history of seizures. Your child and my son are both dependent on herd immunity. It would be a disservice to your son to discourage anyone from having a vaccine just because it did NOT work for your child.
Effectiveness of each vaccine is noted in the “Pink Book”:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm
I would suggest if you want to learn about each vaccine that you should read the articles.
On page 102 of the Polio article the little box to the side shows that the IPV is 90% effective after two doses, and 99% effective after 3 doses.
On page 63 of the Diphtheria article the side box says that it is about 95% effective.
On page 85 and 86 of the Pertussis article there are little boxes showing the effectiveness of different pertussis vaccines. For example the whole-cell pertussis vaccine is only effective 70% to 90% after three doses… and on the next page the Tripedia that was studied in Germany shows only 85% effectiveness.
I can’t imagine that there aren’t studies being done on the supposedly vaccine sensitive newborn immune system. But my point stands, if a newborn is so immune compromised, then they are susceptible to the many, many wild viruses that don’t get checked out in any fashion. Those wild viruses and bacteria and what all just go where they go, mutate when they mutate and make people sick at whatever rate they can manage. They have “skills” that allow them to take advantage of any opportunity. Public health is about “outsmarting them.”
One way to deal with germs (you can think of them as a nasty alien army if you like) is to let them go and wipe out large chunks of the population. That tends to leave the healtier (though sometimes the young and healthy die from epidemics more than older people and children). It’s a kind of laissez faire set up that allows lots and lots of people to get damaged by germs and leaves fewer hosts for the germs because people get immunity or they die, basically. My contention is that if a kid is senstive to vaccines, he’d be the first to go in a wild type epidemic, so his best chance is with a vaccinated “herd.”
It would seem to me that people trained in vaccinology would actually have thought of all these things. The problem is that there is a default assumption that vaccinologists and public health departments are stupid (seems to me) and that they don’t really care who dies or gets hurt. There’s also an assumption that the CDC is working hand-in-glove with Satan and/or the Illuminati. The default assumption is that skittish parents are the best ones to decide what will do the most good.
When I allowed my kds to be vaccinated (took them to the clinic to get them vaccinated on schedule) I read what risks I was taking. I knew for a fact that my child could die or end up disabled from a rare event. We come down to there’s no way to test every child for titres and assess their immune system. maybe every child of a rich white Internet savvy user, but not everyone is rich. And the gov’t might have to do some MAjOR restructuring to test every baby’s immune system for some potential this or that. Should the gov’t stop building bombs and tanks and start testing all babies immune systems? Seems like a good idea… but doesn’t seem like any gov’t is going to go for that… especially not to prevent something like autism which is not connected in any way to vaccines according to present knowledge.
A huge part of the discussion of vaccines on the Internet is literally being driven by *anitvaccine paranoid psychotic people*. I am not kidding. Not kidding. Not slandering, not abusing. I’m stating a fact. How would a paranoid psychotic react to the idea of the gov’t injecting a substance into the population. Think about it.
They are totally freaked by this idea. Psychotic people (who are not evil, they just imagine lots of things that aren’t there) make up about 1% of the population. Up to 10% of the population will hear voices at some time in their lives, according to a new article in New Scientist. There is a psychosis “spectrum.”
So these people think that they are protecting the world from the dangers of vaccines and they set up websites (there’s one called satanic vaccines, apparently, and it’s really sicko). White supremacist, anti-gov’t types, too, they get in there and undermine people’s confidence in vaccines (here in the states). So that soon the default perception can be that the gov’t is not to be trusted, they don’t understand babies’ immune systems.
People all seem to think that if random babies will die of whooping cough or measles *that under no circumstances could it be their own child that would die, so it doesn’t really matter anyway if a bunch of babies die* (like they did in California not that long ago). There was a pertussis outbreak at the high school this year when I was there as part of a class assignment. I was in the same room with high-schoolers who had been exposed to pertussis. I went and asked for a booster shot from my doctor and got it. I was afraid of getting it and exposing others to it. I have asthma and wasn’t sure about getting pertussis on top of that, and I live around people and babies and didn’t want to spread it to them.
Public health is about people giving up some of their rights. That’s just an unpleasant thought, isn’t it, and in the hands of truly, diagnosably paranoid psychotic people it means it’s time to declare war on the vaccine program.
I’m not saying that anyone here is a paranoid psychotic, but some of them have posted to the EoHarm yahoo! group and some of them seem to be regularly posting there now. You can tell by the stuff they post about this or that conspiracy and the implanting of computer chips through vaccines and stuff like that. The problem is that some people are giving credence of some level to drivel coming form paranoid psychotics.
You just have to do the math, if 1% of the population is pyschotic, then a certain percentage of people who post to the Internet or run websites will be. Just as a certain mercury dad who rants here occasionally gives of signs of being a diagnosable narcissist with a messiah complex, or something similar. There’s a book, “The Sociopath next Door,” that says that 4% of the US population are sociopaths.
One can imagine that a sociopath would enjoy the thought of watching people be frightened of vaccines and hoping that by scaring people off vaccines that people would die. I mean if someone would poison random bottles of Tylenol, why not terrorize the public about vaccines from the safety of your home by way of a computer and modem? That’s not an unreasonable scenario, is it?
All I can tell you, is that I trust the current vaccine schedule in the US has been reviewed and reviewed by competent people who have the interests of the public at heart, and who would probably like to see a few billion dollars routed into vaccine research to make vaccines work more efficiently with fewer side effects. Bill Gates was funding research that might produce an inhalable powdered vaccine for some disease(s) that wouldn’t require refrigeration which is a huge problem in poorer countries… and I think the health of poor people is terribly abused by big conglomerates that pollute and don’t take care of their employees, and gov’ts abuse their citizens by treating swaths of humanity as totally disposable.
My main point is how many of the fears of vaccines being discussed here were originally derived from really pointless fear-inducing and/or paranoia driven discussions by non-experts and possibly by people with an agenda to weaken public health practices?
And Sophist, why should anyone be concerned if a child gets a fever (a reasonably short lived, not dangerous fever) after a vaccine? It’s not a sign of the child’s immune system being destroyed or of a defective immune system. Yes, I know some kids get worse fevers, that’s a different discussion. If a kid reacts very badly to a vaccine, why wouldn’t we think that he would be the sort who would be most likely to die from a real infection with the real germ?
Sorry livsparents, there have been NO good ideas about spacing vaccines. There is no evidence WHATSOEVER that spacing vaccines would do anything but expose children to disease, make them suffer more needles stuck in them, and cost a lot of money.
In fact, you would think that the evil drug companies and greedy doctors would be all in favour of single shots, as it would mean more profit, and more lucrative work for the practise nurse. Strange that they are so overwhelmingly in favour of combined shots.
If you can show me one research study, or item of primary evidence, to demonstrate even the plausibility of a need for spacing the component vaccines of MMR or DTP, and give me your address, I will send you £100.
Even dear Dr Wakefield, when asked, repeatedly, for the basis of this claim, couldn’t say. He’d come up with some guff about “interference”, which a lawyer’s assistant cribbed from a couple of papers without knowing what the expression meant, but there’s no evidence at all, or proposition as to how it might be obtained.
Here’s one time he was asked (and this was in writing, with his reply agreed by him), although there are others:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/mmr/cip4/112.asp
They just made it up!
If you can explain what Wakefield can’t, you’ll be making history.
Give it a go!
Margaret,
There are tons of studies on vaccine efficacy (and development of antibodies) in PubMed. Try typing in “vaccines immunity children” and you will get many responses. Here is an example. If you read this carefully, you will see that 90% of 4-6 year olds who had recieved the MMR were immune to rubella. However, only 67% in 11- to 13-year-olds, who had been vaccinated were immune, suggesting waning immunity and the need for booster shots.
I am not aware of any large scale studies specifically on children with autism, but you can have a look through the over 4000 studies that this search query pulls up, if you wish.
The correlation of adverse reactions and vaccinations and their connection with Genetics is a concern of the CDC, that is planning an extense study/studies of this, called
“Study or Studies Regarding the Potential Association of Vaccine Adverse Events and Human Genetic Variationsâ€
I consider that is important to detect children prone to negative reactions to vaccines using appropriate methods and to do the correct measures to avoid them (that can include a delayed vaccination under certain protective conditions). If you are able to detect properly children at risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations in the percentage of the population that this can be detected) the herd immunity not necessarily must be affected. You need 85 % uptake of a vaccine to have herd immunity. This means that up 10-14 % of non-vaccinated (or delayed vaccinated in susceptible-to-adverse-reactions-to —vaccinations-people) does not necessarily put in risk the herd immunity.
There are several reviews that are interesting in the topic of immunology and autism. Dr Paul Ashwood work is one
“The immune response in autism: a new frontier for autism research”:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16698940&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsumof them
Majority of the studies in vaccine safety published are focused in healthy babies, without medical conditions of any kind and a healthy immune system.
Some questions
If we accept that autism is present many times with altered immune system, looking at the Dr Ashwood paper
a-why the immune answer must be the same than non-autistics?
b-Dr Ashwood studies have detected a group of hyper immune and another group of hypo immune reactive autistic people. What would be the impact of the overall vaccination schedule (and compositions including known contaminations) of people genetically different from the immunological point of view?
c- When the CDC exceptions for vaccinations are carefully considered by the doctor in practice?
“Who should not be vaccinated”:http://www.cdc.gov/od/science/iso/publications/documents/contraindications_guide.pdf
“Contraindications”:http://www.cdc.gov/nip/recs/contraindications_vacc.htm
For example
*Serious allergic reactions to a previous dose or to a component
*Suppresion of cellular immunity ( that must be tested to be detected many times)
Therefore if you have IgA deficiency ( total and/or secretory AND primary or secondary) vaccination with several vaccines, including the varicella vaccine is contraindicated.
How many doctors ask about the familiar history of immunedeficiency before vaccination with varicella vaccine?
Any condition moderate or severe is recommended with delayed vaccination.
In Appendix B-1
Measles and varicella vaccination…. Is contraindicated for persons with ….any other immunosuppressive disorder
And my son was fully vaccinated and he was a severe IgA (total and secretory) deficient and egg allergic- but nobody tested BEFORE the vaccinations. Resulting of this, the varicella vaccine provoked him the varicella- a virulent form-, and he transmitted it to the other 20 children of the kindergarten- even the vaccinated ones, that were the majority. Therefore the vaccination to a susceptible child here was a problem to the other children.
In this sense for me
1-The safety trials has been done on children developmentally in range of normalcy and without illness-in general. However, remember what happened with the trials of the MMR-Varicella vaccine. One of the children in the trial that after the trial was diagnosed with ASD have a family with an history of adverse reactions to vaccines-mainly varicella vaccine- but nobody asked before the administration of the vaccine.
2-CDC recommendations on contraindications are in their webpage but no doctor in practice –peditrician- at the best of my knowledge applies them. My son was never tested for IgA deficiency/neurologic syndromes/allergies that, BTW, if secondary/mild-moderate can be asymptomatic first year of life.
3-Several multiple vaccine are administered the same day. With the possibility of allergic reactions- unpredictable, why? In general in safety trials, these do not include the concurrent vaccination with other vaccines-MANY OF THEM;- the same day at the same time.
I do not consider any kind of conspiracy and I am not antivaccination, but the vaccination program- such as it is proposed- it is not well applied by doctors in practice, considering even the current safety considerations that the same CDC proposes in its site. Even more, many times, vaccine´s manufacturers and CDC recommendations do not match.
I consider that to take into account all these aspects ( the genetics, the recommendations of non-vaccination and delayed vaccination and the individual analysis of IF contraindications are present)-considering the individuality- would improve the credibility of the vaccination program.
“Public health is about people giving up some of their rights.”
“Sorry livsparents, there have been NO good ideas about spacing vaccines. There is no evidence WHATSOEVER that spacing vaccines would do anything but expose children to disease, make them suffer more needles stuck in them, and cost a lot of money.”
Permit me to combine these two concepts. So, if we are so bent on giving up rights, why not ask parents of newborns if they are in the high risk groups for Hep-B and save those infants needless shots? Seems that privacy rights are still paramount…
I can see the point of not letting the paranoid parent run the vaccine schedule but what of parents like me who had regressive autism happen to one child and has another with slightly different but equally symptommatic well er, symptoms of autism? The herd immunity of vaccination is, by its own admission, concerned with the vast majority and not the rare exception. Why is it inconceivable that something is falling through the cracks?
Since I do not know what caused my daughters’ forms of autism, and no one else is offering what it is, just generally what it isn’t, I cannot rule out the possibility of something in the vaccination process as one of the candidates for the regression from a normally developing child into a completely different non verbal child in a matter of months after the flu and MMR vaccinations.
Irrational or not, I have to look at the things that happenned around the regression; I feel the risk of measles mumps, rubella and the flu
are much less of a risk to MY child at this point than the POSSIBILITY that there is something causative there. I’m sorry if that’s selfish to the herd immunity; if it’s any consolation, I am not spewing my paranoia on every parent I meet. But I have my own risk assessment to perform, and this is my conclusion…
You can argue the generalities of autism all you like, but much of my daughter’s autism is not within the ‘norm’ that the researchers base their studies on. I have to be concerned with the ‘herd’ trampling her individual issues…
Mr Deer, I suppose that 100 pound note doesn’t apply to any susbsequent studies? I’m certainly not betting my daughter’s future on it…
Bill
Bill,
I just think you haven’t made your case against the dangers of a newborn Hep B shot. It’s not just the parents privacy, it’s that the parents don’t always know how likely their kid is to run into Hep B, and no the baby doesn’t need to shoot up drugs or have sex as those clever, seemingly paranoids wags say. Also, if mom is making money as a prostitute, if dad is doing injectible drugs or having sex with multiple unkown partners and they are living in a middle class neighborhood is they going to share that fact?
The decision to give all the newborns a Hep B shot was based on observations of risk, maybe those observations were wrong, but maybe they are the best for the most babies (and for the future health of those babies.)
They added the Hep B vaccine because Hepetitis B went from being relatively rare to being relatively common because of the way drug use and gay sex spread it in the 1970’s or did I get that wrong? That’s not an attack on any minority, it’s what happened, as I understand it. The germ found a way to become much more multitudinous and it did what it was inclined to do with so many hosts sharing body fluids so frequently and traveling all over to do that (aided by places like bathhouses… read “And the Band Played On” by Randy Shilts if you need details.)
I am not convinced at all that vaccines had the least thing to do with your children’s autism, Bill. What I see is that you can’t get the idea out of your head. That’s fine. Fortunately for you, you can choose whether or not to vaccinate your kid and the consequences shouldn’t be too grave. I don’t want to deprive you of your right as a parent to do what you think is best.
Not Mercury didnt’ vaccinate his/her younger child it seems until the younger child was showing signs of autism, which is what convinced Not Mercury that vaccines were not a part of his/her kids autism. (Do we know Not Mercury’s gender? I forgot.) We don’t know if the younger child is vaccinated yet, and it’s none of our business. Not Mercury was pretty sure vaccines had something to do with the first child’s autism, or was afraid that it might have had something to do with that child’s autism.
As far as I know the Illuminati and/or Bill Gates didn’t enter Not Mercury’s house and force vaccines on them. Not Mercury’s family made a private decision that worked out for them.
If people have genuine reasons not to vaccinate a certain child, then they shouldn’t. Of course, this is true.
A child who has the HIV virus might not get the measles vaccine because of the immune system being compromised, but again that child is even more depenedent on the good will of all his neighbors to get vaccinated. Apparently a child with HIV/AIDS should get an inactive flu shot, but not the flu mist, and again he should hope for a well vaccinated herd living near by.
There’s no way around the fact that it’s a risk vs. benefit problem and that the risks to us all from vaccines is less than the risks of not vaccinating.
It’s my opinion, and not a criticism, that even Not Mercury was more afraid of autism being dx’d in his/her second child than of a possible serious infection of measles, etc. and this comes out of the hysteria that has been whipped up about autism and the constant down playing and ignoring of the dangers of vaccine preventable diseases, on the other hand if Not Mercury was living in a place with good herd immunity that his/her caution did not put the child at any great risk, it was still probably pointless not to vaccinate the second child on schedule.
Honestly, if I had been in Not Mercury’s shoes, I can’t see why I wouldn’t have done the same. S/he was working with a certain set of information and a certain set of concerns as was his or her (presumed) spouse.
I have been fooled in my life (who hasn’t?) I have believed things that aren’t true. I once thought that maybe there could be something actually effective in homeopathic drops. I bought some homepathic asthma drops once, but because it had an herbal tinkcture in it at regular dose, and it wasn’t just homepathic water. I have made doctors angry (a couple of times they were really angry) by inquiring about this or that alternative remedy I heard of for my kid.
I was a hippie. My babies slept with me, for the most part, not in cribs. I am a big believer in the wonders of breast feeding. I cut my own hair! I own a book on acupressure. I understand believing stuff that doesn’t have much or any reality behind it. I got really into learning about handwriting analysis for a while. I”m not saying I’m superior. I’m saying, Bill, I think you are believing stuff that has no scientific underpinnings, and that maybe you’ll figure that out one day, and that you need to think about who put those ideas in your head and if they are legitimate sources.
My other big concern is that any sort of serious sounding questioning of the vaccine program *not based in reality* can be similar to yelling “fire” in a crowded building. It’s hard to get everyone to think about giving up some of their freedom to “join the herd.” It doesn’t take much to undermine the public health system by telling people that really they ought to space out vaccines, that the experts are stupid, immune systems are so delicate and vaccines are worse than any wild germ ever, vaccine levels of mercury are DEADLY and soul destroying, aluminium in vaccines is an Illuminati and Big Pharma plot, they practically grind up aborted fetuses to make vaccines…there is nothing on earth worse than autism, a dead or maimed child is preferable to an autistic one…, blah blah. Cue the paranoid psychotics and sociopaths again.
The consequences of a child not being vaccinated do not conist merely of ticking-off Ms. Clark. The consequences include real children dying and become deaf or blind or being otherwise harmed. But people go right ahead blathering their cheap hypotheses about this or that with no concern for the fallout, seems to me. Not talking about you, Bill.
livsparents–I don’t want to offend, but I’m a bit confused about why you keep saying you don’t know any of the causes of your daughters’ autism. To me it sounds like genetics must be at least some of the picture, in your case. (since both of your daughters display symptoms.) I’m not saying that environmental factors play no role (because of course they do, in all people), but I am miffed about why vaccines are continually singled out.
Livsparents wrote: “So, if we are so bent on giving up rights, why not ask parents of newborns if they are in the high risk groups for Hep-B and save those infants needless shots?”
In Canada, in many provinces, and in particular, in Ontario -the most populous province – HepB is only given to children of mothers with a positive HepB titer or at risk of HepB, i.e. intravenous drug users.
But in Canada, the rate of ASD is almost exactly the same as in the US. So, logic says that HepB vaccination cannot be a major cause of autism. I’d agree with you that it does seem a bit excessive to immunize babies against something that they are unlikely to encounter.
Maria,
There is pubmed research into vaccination of children with comprised immune systems. See here. These are mostly children that have undergone organ transplants. And they have decided that some shots are worth the risk, and others are not. But we are talking about severely comprised immune systems in that case – not just theoretically comprised immune systems.
“To me it sounds like genetics must be at least some of the picture, in your case. (since both of your daughters display symptoms.) I’m not saying that environmental factors play no role (because of course they do, in all people), but I am miffed about why vaccines are continually singled out.”
I have no doubt that genetics are a major factor in the development of autism. My beef with vaccines are only circumstantial in nature; regression in my elder ASD girl(and the severe-er of the two) occurred over the months immediately following flu, MMR then flu vaccine combination. I can rationally say that it was likely not vaccines that caused her regression, but I cannot rule it out as a possibility.
I feel my rationalization for not vaccinating my younger girl is quite logical however. Even if you disagree with me, you can certainly give me long odds of say, 1 in 500 that something in the vaccine process may impact certain segments of the autistic population. What are my younger daughters odds of even contracting measles, mumps or rubella let alone being hospitalized by it? What are her odds of getting hospitalized by the flu? I think I have worse odds on the vaccines…
Thank you, Broken link; for the link
It has been published that in a subgroup of autistic children, near 33% of the studied group had low to almost inexistent IgA total , several years ago. In these cases, you do not know if it is primary or secondary (it was not included).
1-“Brief report: immunoglobulin A deficiency in a subset of autistic subjects”:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9105969&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum and links
“Mucosal immunity”:http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/111/6/S2/1595
Mucosal immunity in autistic children in general can be dysregulated (looking at the work of Ashwood et al and all the reviewed literature in it).
Again, the immune systems in many autistic children are not theoretically compromised; they are dysregulated- although the nature of the dysregulation in terms of causes needs more research.
The clinical presentation of the individual must be considered in a susceptibility to vaccination. It is not only the immune system, it must be considered the gastrointestinal system (and mucosal immunity) also and the individual health status ( in terms of metabolism and biochemistry). There is a lot of under diagnosis of metabolic syndromes in ASD- including mitochondrial, as also of organic, physiological dysfunctions- endocrinologic and biochemical imbalances , for example.
In this sense, recent literature presents important clues that must be analyzed further IMHO:
“A genetic variant that disrupts MET transcription is associated with autism”:http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/45/16834
The possibility of concomitant medical problems to the diagnosis of Autism and the general health status (at the level of immune system, digestive system, mucosal immunity, other infections present)are important to analyze the potential adverse reactions to vaccination. For example if immunodeficiency is present herpes/strep infections can be virulent, if the immune system is hyper reactive autoimmunity is a possibility.
In the case of transplant of organs (for example liver) for a non-autistic person, in general the target is specifically the immune system ( supressed to avoid rejection) and the consequences of specifically the previous medical situation ( liver disease) that in general after the transplant are solved.
I consider that in many autistic children when immune depression is present, it can be present with other things ( it was in my son´s case) but I am not doing a generalization. And again I am pointing about the individual case.
If besides the immunedefficiency there are gastrointestinal problems, from moderate to severe- such as CDC presents, vaccination must be delayed under their advice. What about for example if they are chronic?What about the combined problems related to food allergies, allergies in general ( please see about eczemas) with dermatological evidences IF they are present?
What I am trying to say is that immune depression for a non-autistic transplanted child/ or adult may not be the same than the immune depression of an autistic child that can be genetically related and epigenetically modulated- both at an individual level and very dependent of the individual with also other concomitant medical problems.
Bill (livsparents):
As a journalist whose been involved in such things for many years, I can tell you, as a certain fact, that if I was to run a story next weekend to the effect that concerns are growing that autism may be due to Christian baptism, and that Dr Quackstreet says definitive evidence is not available, but it may be a consequence of low-level radioactivity in font marble, then lights would burn late into the night as some parents desperately scoured family records. And, believe me, some would exclaim: “Maybe THAT’S it! We took Terry to the church on the 14th, and two months later he wasn’t looking right.”
I’m not making fun of you, or making light of your anxieties. Quite the opposite. As if you’ve nothing else to worry about, these guys have duped you.
And if I was really hard up for a story, when some of those parents phoned me on Monday morning to apparently confirm my claims, I’d print their pictures the following weekend, and pass their names to a firm of solicitors.
Mercifully, unlike some in my line of work, I’m not that desperate.
http://briandeer.com/wakefield/lawsuit-times.htm
Ms Clark wrote:
There’s a book, “The Sociopath next Door,†that says that 4% of the US population are sociopaths… One can imagine that a sociopath would enjoy the thought of watching people be frightened of vaccines and hoping that by scaring people off vaccines that people would die.
All this needs is the word “devastating” and maybe a tsunami metaphor, and you’d have an advertisement for Sociopathy Speaks or Cure Sociopathy Now…
I got involved in a forum war on Aspergia three years ago, in which I was arguing that a sociopath’s neurodiversity should be respected just like everyone else’s. The argument got started after a woman who was a clinical sociopath started posting on Aspergia’s forum. She had a very poor understanding of other people’s emotions, and she habitually made provocative statements as a way of getting responses that were strong enough for her to understand. Although she knew this wasn’t the ideal way to interact with people, she didn’t know what else to do. She came to Aspergia to learn how autistics dealt with the problem of misunderstanding emotions.
Of course, she didn’t explain all of this forthrightly and ask for help. I don’t think she was capable of expressing her intentions so clearly. Several of us dragged it out of her after a long, convoluted discussion that literally went on for days. After we figured out why she was there, a few of us started giving her advice on constructive ways to ask people about their feelings without being manipulative.
Unfortunately, by then she had already annoyed several other members of the forum with her confusing and provocative writing style, and they got together and decided to hound her off the forum with a barrage of nasty personal insults and rants about sociopaths. The poor woman did her best to avoid taking the bait and to practice writing friendly, non-provocative posts, but it didn’t matter what she wrote — they bashed it, and her, mercilessly.
I told them they should be ashamed of themselves for bullying a person because of her neurology on an autistic rights forum. The resulting argument went on for two months.
I’m not trying to start a war here, but I do feel it’s necessary to say this: Sociopaths have a cognitive disability. They’re not necessarily evil, and they can be taught more positive ways of interacting with people. And I am very strongly opposed to demonizing any group of people on the basis of their neurology.
Bill,
The reason I can say I believe that vaccines do not play a role in autism is because that’s where the science leads me. You have fallen victim to post ergo propter hoc fallacy in a big way.
It is reasonable to believe that a child’s communication skills improve after speech therapy because there’s science to prove that. It is reasonable to believe a child improves when dietary changes are made because there’s science to prove that.
It is less reasonable for me to think that my kid started talking simply because we took the bottle away. It is considerably less reasonable to assume that a vaccine caused regression in a child. Why? Because the science points AWAY from those conclusion, not towards them.
That’s why I suggest that some things are coincidence, and others are not.
Just my two cents worth –
A son was recently born into our family – about two weeks ago. This is our third child. Our oldest, who is 5, is autistic. Our second son, who is 4, shows absolutely no autistic tendencies at all. I began to closely follow this debate about 12-14 months ago, but my interest heightened dramatically when we found out my wife was pregnant again. Until then, I realized that I gravitated towards the ND-side of the argument for superficial reasons. I didn’t like the tone of the Hg folks in general (although some were perfectly fine), and I felt immediately that this blog and a number of others were adhering to a set of values that really meant something to me.
Well, back then, I had the luxury, somewhat, of standing on the sidelines and observing. Once we knew another baby was on the way, it was time to get to work.
Between then and now, I think I have spent more time researching all of these issues than I have spent doing just about anything else (outside of family time and career). I have a BA in psychology, with an emphasis on neurophysiology, so I had a decent basis to start from. Including an working knowledge of what constitutes good vs. bad research.
I decided to begin as a Tabula Rasa, not allowing any preconceptions to enter into our decision to vaccinate or not. I joined EOH yahoo group, and asked many questions. At first, they viewed me as a good person who had an interest in curing his child. As I continued to throw out questions that challenged their views (becuase I wanted to hear all sides of the argument, not because I wanted to argue with them), they became more and more aggressive and derisive with me. As I kept telling them, this was fine with me since it is “their” forum and my probing questions made them not like me very much, but I just wanted to know what convinced them of the “truth”. Some of them sent lots of links and articles. I read every one of them. JB Handley even sent me an article of a recommended “alternative” vaccine schedule which the author/doctor felt would reduce risks. So, even though I was insulted (Lenny Schafer claiming I may have a low intellect) and accused of being a mole or a spy (by several), I got what I came for and was able to leave them in peace to go about their business. What I got was information, which I proed over. To this day, I am “called out” on other blogs for making comments here, as if I am some sort of covert operative for the ND movement (my name is Steve Dionne, by the way, for those posters on other blogs who want to trumpet their success in “outing” me from my cloak and dagger ND status – since I am not a conspiracy theorist like you, I don’t really have to worry about identity exposure do I?)
At the same time, I was following up on many links on the ND side. I reviewed blog posts by Kev, Autism Diva, Not Mercury, Bartholomew Cubbins, Orac, Joseph, and Dad of Cameron. I read the research, I did all the work to form my own opinion. (Acutally, everyone else did all the work, I just read the stuff and thought about it).
Well, as of a couple of weeks ago, it was decision-making time. I had actually already made my decision prior to two weeks ago, but now it is time to put my money where my mouth is.
What I determined, Bill, is that there is no link – NO LINK – between vaccines and autism. None. Zero. Not only are the studies that they use to support that concept bad, the people behind them are, in many cases, bad as well. And time and time again it has come to light that many of these researchers have nefarious motivations behind their work. Most notably, Wakefield (and his crew) and the Geiers (read Kathleen Seidel’s 13-part series on those guys).
This whole vaccine thing is an invention that has evolved into an urban legend. But, as Allen says on his summary of the recent debate – the story has legs.
The thing is, there is nothing to it. It is just that – a story. It created enough fear in me to take the time (LOTS of time) to do the research. But now that I have seen the real science, and applied just a little bit of common sense to the equation, I realize that it is all a sham. And a harmful one. I don’t need to go into why or how it is harmful, as that has been done much more eloquently and comrehensively than I could do by many of the individuals I have named above.
Last week I took our new son in for his first “well baby” checkup and told the Pediatrician what we had decided – to vaccinate our new boy. We entered a lengthy discussion about it, and one interesting thing that came of it was when he went to his office and pulled a document which he brought to me. This was an internal document issued by the health care group I am insured by announcing to all doctors in the group (there are hundreds and hundreds) that all vaccines will be Thimerosal free by January 2001, and all Thimerosal-containing vaccines in inventory would be return to vendors to be replaced by the Thimerosal-free versions dictated by new state law. This means my son (born October 2001) never received any Thimerosal at all (at preservative-level doses). And the same holds true for thousands of other kids of the same age cohort in Southern California.
So, Bill, I can understand your concerns because I was in your shoes as well, but one must follow the science, and the science clearly indicates to vaccinate your kids. I respect your decisions and especially the respectful tone in which you communicate, and just wanted to offer my two cents on this topic.
Steve
Thank you Steve, for those wonderful, thoughtful words. And for making a truly informed decision. I just hope that others are able to hear your voice as well. Maybe a final post to EoH would be in order 😉 ?
Jennifer –
I don’t think I will post to EoH anymore – not even one last time. Not only do I not particularly want to be attacked (though only words), but I do not think that I can change anyone’s point of view over there. Nor do I want to impose on them – it is their world, and they can believe and behave as they see fit. If I felt an open and honest debate were possible, I would engage in that. It doesn’t really work that way, though – the mob rules. Interestingly, compare that to how Bill’s questions are handled on this site. Bill is respectful and informed, and is therefore treated likewise. Anyway, thanks to those who helped provide me with some very good info.
Steve
Thanks for your explanation of your journey through EoH world, Steve, and thanks for (all) your other comments here. 🙂
Friend in California,
Congratulations on the new baby. I hope Mom is doing well. If your comments begin to arrive at very late hours everyone will understand.
Thanks Ms. Clark and Another Voice – much appreciated.
And Mom is doing very well. As you all know, she takes the brunt of the responsibility for the first stretch of baby’s life (darn those midnight feedings!)
Oh, and a great story of Echolalia gone right:
My son likes to sit “criss cross applesauce” (Indian style to those of our generation) and hold his arms out to hold the baby. When I hand him the baby, he says (verbatim, with precisely the same voice inflection every time): “Oh, what a cute little baby.” He then kisses baby’s forehead (same spot each time), then pulls his arms out from under baby as if he were holding a hot potato and runs away. Don’t worry, I keep my arms under his for extra support:) Very fun stuff.
You will excuse me if take your advise and continue down my path in any event. I cannot get over the retrospect of thinking that my daughter was mad at us over the birth of our daughter and THAT’s why she was distant. We just couldn’t go through that again, however remote the possibility.
The difference in your situation and mine, is you have had one in between NT, my littlest girl is also has autistic tendencies; started early, with clearer flags early. The are less severe than Liv’s and have appeared to have improved over the past year.
Again, all just vague circumstantial evidence, but just like the man who can’t drive down the same road that his family crashed on, there may be no TRUE rationale other than fear.
It’s more than a little sick the fervor at which the anti-vaxers hold on to this belief. Although it is much more comforting to have an enemy to hate. Much easier to be angry than depressed…