I am beginning to wonder if National Autism Association are actually capable of discussing autism without lying any more. Its becoming more and more blatant. Today, they have released a press release of support for Andrew Wakefield which is simply bizarre:
Parents and advocacy groups around the globe are asking England’s General Medical Council (GMC) to cancel the “fitness to practice†inquiry that begins today against Dr. Andy Wakefield, and Professors Walker-Smith and Murch. Advocates say the GMC should instead be asking why so many kids are sick, especially in light of an apparently suppressed analysis showing that autism rates in England are as high as 1 in 58. The medical establishment is being criticized for doing little to find the cause, treat the kids, or prevent new cases.
Uh, no, no they’re not. Parents around the world (of whom I am one) are _not_ asking the GMC to cancel the hearings against Andrew Wakefield. I have read numerous letters, comments in blogs and on forums from parents who are quite happy to see the GMC conduct an inquiry into Wakefield’s behaviour.
An what the hell is this ‘suppressed analysis’ rubbish? Its not suppressed at all. The leaked study was not published and according to the lead author:
So, what are the facts on autism? Does the one-in-58 figure hold up? Baron-Cohen says their study of Cambridgeshire children, which has been running for five years, comes out with a range of figures from one in 58, to one in 200, depending on various factors. The draft report, he says, “is as accurate as jottings in a notebookâ€.
The NAA – and anyone who really seriously believes this twaddle – really need to take a long hard look at their motives. Why are they doing this? They _know_ the claim that the data from Baron-Cohen’s study is suppressed is rubbish. What this press release is is simply propaganda. Why are the NAA purposefully lying?
And they continue:
In the first of 5000 cases to be heard in a special vaccine court in the US last month, evidence presented demonstrated that 12-year old Michelle Cedillo began regressing into autism just a week after her MMR vaccination at 15 months. The plausible cause was a persistent measles infection which took hold through an immune system weakened by mercury in vaccines administered prior to the MMR.
Well, the NAA must’ve been reading a different set of transcripts to me. The evidence presented, utilising the video evidence, and interpreted by one of the worlds leading diagnostic authorities on autism clearly showed Michelle Cedillo was autistic way before she had her MMR jabs. It was also clearly demonstrated that the evidence presented to support the assertion that MMR was a ‘plausible cause’ of autism was a joke. The MMR/autism theory revolves around the idea of measles from the MMR travelling to the gut then the brain and causing damage that results in autism. Without measles being present, there is no MMR/autism hypothesis.
Here’s the sworn testimony of Stephen Bustin, _the_ world expert in the technique Wakefield’s lab of choice screwed up:
What I immediately observed was that they had forgotten to do the RT step…….If you detect a target that is apparently measles virus in the absence of an RT step by definition it can’t be measles virus because it has to be DNA. It’s a very simple concept. At least it is to me. It’s not to everyone else……[b]ecause measles virus doesn’t exist as a DNA molecule in nature, they cannot be detecting measles virus….
We need to be absolutely clear about this. This isn’t an _opinion_ Bustin was expressing. These were findings. He was in the O’Leary lab for (if I recall correctly) about 1,000 hours.
Wakefield _never found measles virus_ .
Then it gets really surreal:
The charges originated from internet blogger Brian Deer, who many parents have suggested may be linked to the pharmaceutical industry. “This is nothing more than a witch hunt brought against scientists willing to undertake ground-breaking research challenging the assumption that autism is an inherited untreatable psychiatric disorder that cannot be prevented. Implicating the safety of vaccines such as MMR isn’t acceptable to drug companies or government officials who want to protect the vaccine program itself at the cost of the health of children,†said Mr. Bono.
Brian’s an internet blogger? Weird. last I hears he was a freelance journalist. Certainly the readers of his Times pieces and Channel 4 television reports would think so.
Mr. Bono also needs to internalise a few basic facts.
1) The MMR hypothesis has been on the table since ’97. So far there has been absolutely no valid research supporting the idea that MMR causes autism or contributes to the development of autism in any way. If there was, why was it not presented at the recent Cedillo hearing?
2) Since ’97 the MMR uptake fell to nearly 80% at one point. If, as the NAA suggest, autism has skyrocketed to 1 in 58 then how is it that MMR uptake has plummeted whilst autism rates have skyrocketed.
3) I would ask these many parents that the NAA know to back up their allegation that Brian Deer is linked to the pharmaceutical industry. I’m a parent. I don’t think Brian is a big pharma shill. I also think its a particularly pathetic whiny little stab.
4) This is not a witch hunt. This is a look at a man who _has_ put the health of children at risk. Measles and Mumps have increased four fold since ’97. One English child and several Irish kids died from Measles. Approx 12% of measles sufferers required hospitalisation.
Andrew Wakefield hid the results that he didn’t like. Here is Nick Chadwick on the original Lancet paper:
Q So you personally tested while you were in Dr. Wakefield’s lab gut biopsy material, CSF and PBMCs?
A Yes, that’s right.Q And all the results were either negative, or if they were positive it always turned out that they were false positives?
A Yes, that’s correct.Q Did you inform Dr. Wakefield of the negative results?
A Yes. Yes.
Andrew Wakefield conducted poor science. He hid the results that he knew would scupper his poor science. Children have died and have been hospitalised as a result of this appalling dereliction of medical duty.
Left Brain Right Brain 
I fear that that 1 in 58 estimate is going to take on a life of its own. Even the BMJ quotes it uncritically: The British Medical Journal Embarrasses Itself by Reproducing That Notorious 1 in 58 Figure.
In bone-aching detail, CAST (the tool in question) produces a 50% false positive rate but it also has a reliable specificity for correctly identifiying true negatives: it has some potential as a first-pass screening tool for research into epidemiology but not for anything else, as yet.
“These have now been accepted as the standard of care by a group of leading pediatric gastroenterologists in the United States.”
Would this be…Thoughtful House?
Gosh, they even got in the term, “tsunami”!
OK, let’s assume for a moment that there really is an epidemic (there isn’t). Then, wouldn’t Dr. Wakefield’s misleading studies be even worse? Isn’t he somehow misdirecting needed resources away from the battle against the “hell that is autism”?
No matter how you look at it, what Wakefiled did was wrong. I am offended at his actions as a human, as a person with a family member who has autism and as a scientist.
And, yes, it is true some of the parents “around the world” would prefer that Wakefield didn’t get put up on charges in the UK. Those of us in the US would prefer that he didn’t move here, thank you very much.
Matt
http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2007/07/national-autism-association.html
The press release is from this NAA? The NAA headquartered in Nixa, Missouri? In the former space occupied by a hairdressers?
Kevin:
I hate to break this to you, but you are just one parent, and a parent sitting in an extreme minority. When the NAA says parents around the globe, they mean it. The last I checked, there were more than 7,000 signatures from parents, and today there were a couple hundred of your countrymen supporting Dr. Wakefield, most of whom feel you are an idiot.
If you tried to get a petition of parents together representing the views of yourself, Diva, and Mr. Deer, all 3 foot 2 of him, you’d have 3 and Diva’s sock puppets, which would get you about 50 votes in total. Throw in the twenty or so posters who claim to be “adult autistics” on your blog, and your up to 70. My bet is that’s your maximum number.
Meanwhile, those of us who believe Dr. Wakefield is telling the truth, who subscribe to the views of NAA, ARI, and others, our numbers keep growing. Thousands of us go to DAN! conferences, thousands of us sign a petition for Wakefield, and thousands of us think you are, again, a complete idiot.
What’s worse, you seem to think autism is something that can’t be cured but only supported, and that proper therapy and education is the best thing you can do for your daughter. Fair enough, I only hope for the best for her and your family, but, you seem to think that this blog, and spending your time attacking other parents, is somehow going to help Megan.
I have some bad news for you, Kevin. You haven’t convinced one of us, not a one, that we are anything but right. Yes, you’ve been a magnet for many adult autistic or at least wanna-be autistics, but not one parent has been moved by your shrilly, whiny, pathetic little blog. If you had a quid for every hour you have spent typing away at your little desk, you could afford the best education Britain has to offer for Megan.
Instead, what you’ve got is a whole lot of nothing. Is this the best way to spend your time- telling people “My favourite horrible indulgence is dunking bourbon biscuits into tap water and then slurping the whole mess back?”
Up the meds for your self-professed bipolar disorder Kev (I guess you think that gives you ND street cred), none of us are listening.
MercuryDad
p.s. Thanks for the photo idea, Diva, we’ll be sending a film crew to your trailer – film at 11.
Argument ad populum.
Totally meaningless argumentum ad populum and ad numerum.
Ad hominem and more argumentum ad numerum.
Argumentum ad populum. Didn’t you read the transcripts from the Cedillo case JB?
“Evil neurodiverse” ad hominem.
You know what they say JB. “You can’t reason someone out of a position they haven’t reasoned themselves into.” More ad hominem in there too.
Yet more ad hominem.
Even more ad hominem. Has someone accused you “us” of listening?
If you took logic or debate at Stanford, I’d consider asking for a refund.
(ad hominem)
Deary, deary me – It amazes me that you wife lets you out in public sometimes Brad. It seems that you require even more schooling which – as ever – I’m more than happy to provide to you, free of charge :o)
_”I hate to break this to you, but you are just one parent, and a parent sitting in an extreme minority. When the NAA says parents around the globe, they mean it. The last I checked, there were more than 7,000 signatures from parents, and today there were a couple hundred of your countrymen supporting Dr. Wakefield, most of whom feel you are an idiot.”_
Sitting in an extreme minority? I really don’t think you’re looking at this accurately Brad. You’re looking at it as a purely evil ND vs Saint Brad way. I’m afraid you are – as is usually the case – quite wrong. The _majority_ of people who have autism in their lives really don’t give a shit about either you or me. However, a quick perusal of the Observer’s letters page would’ve revealed the true nature of the people who stand opposite you Brad. Scientists. Doctors. As well as people like me and autistic people themselves. I hate to break this to you Brad but all of the scientists I’ve spoken to who are even aware of what you do or who you (and the NAA) are consider you a scientific laughing stock.
But lets put this 7,000 figure in perspective shall we? If we accept the Baird et al rate of 1 in 100 prevalence then according to NAS 133,500 UK children are autistic. If we are unbelievably generous and assume every single signature on that petition to support Wakers is a) genuine and b) from a UK citizen then that means that 7,000 equates to 5% of the UK autism parents community who think Wakefield is right and support him. If you want to extrapolate that to the whole world (autism is international after all Brad) then, according to the CIA Factbook 27.4% of the world population (6,602,224,175) are under 15 which gives us a figure of 1,809,009,423.9. Your 7,000 represent 0.00038% of the international autism community. Now that, my friend, is an extreme minority. There aren’t stats that I could find of what number of the world population trust doctors and scientists in matters of health and science but I’m going to go ahead and assume its a very, very high figure indeed.
_”If you tried to get a petition of parents together representing the views of yourself, Diva, and Mr. Deer, all 3 foot 2 of him, you’d have 3 and Diva’s sock puppets, which would get you about 50 votes in total. Throw in the twenty or so posters who claim to be “adult autistics” on your blog, and your up to 70. My bet is that’s your maximum number.”_
Really? Well, Kathleen’s petition about Boyd Haley’s slur against autistic people as being mad gained over 500 signatures. This one about Autism Speaks gained 860 before I shut it. This one to the NIH has about 580 and is still going. And hey Brad – guess what? These petitions achieved results! Guess how much impact this 7,000 strong one will have with the GMC?
And lets look at forums. This forum I set up a short while ago which is strictly for parents of autistic people has over 150 members. WrongPlanet has over 12,000 members. AspiesForFreedm is another very large web forum. If you want to limit this to Evil ND’s vs Vax/Autim parents then you can consider your ass well and truly numerically kicked :o) – if we want to expand it to what it _really_ is – a debate about science vs quackery then you are so small it would be difficult to see you if you were painted day-glo pink whilst sitting on a black background.
And what’s this bizarreness about a persons size??? Does height correlate to accuracy? Or do you have a long standing issue with matters of size? Did the older boys used to point and laugh at little Brad?
_”Meanwhile, those of us who believe Dr. Wakefield is telling the truth, who subscribe to the views of NAA, ARI, and others, our numbers keep growing. Thousands of us go to DAN! conferences, thousands of us sign a petition for Wakefield, and thousands of us think you are, again, a complete idiot.”_
Again, no. Web trends for the ARI site for example show a continual downturn year on year. The fact that there are a hardcore 0.00038% of you who think DAN! doctors are worthwhile only speaks to _your_ idiocy I’m afraid.
_”What’s worse, you seem to think autism is something that can’t be cured but only supported, and that proper therapy and education is the best thing you can do for your daughter.”_
Autism isn’t something that can be cured. Unless you can show me the science that shows it can be…? I don’t support autism at all. I support autistic people.
_”you seem to think that this blog, and spending your time attacking other parents, is somehow going to help Megan.”_
I’ll occasionally attack parents like you, Julia Berle etc who are either liars or just plain stupid but most of the time I attack the quacks that you have fallen for. This _will_ help Meg, and Jamie and lots of other autistic kids who won’t have useless, dangerous quackery foisted on them. It will also, I hope, serve to document how autism fell prey to quackery and help prevent such idiocy happening again.
_”I have some bad news for you, Kevin. You haven’t convinced one of us, not a one, that we are anything but right.”_
Really? I wouldn’t be so quick with that assumption Brad ;o) – apply a bit of logical thinking. Unless I’m a member of every single Yahoo/autism/quack group on the planet (which I am not) then who do you think is giving me some of the information I get and blog about? As I’ve said to you before, I used to exchange regular emails with three of your Rescue Angels. I don’t so much any more as they’ve fallen away from the whole vaccine thing.
_”Yes, you’ve been a magnet for many adult autistic or at least wanna-be autistics, but not one parent has been moved by your shrilly, whiny, pathetic little blog.”_
There you go with the ‘little’ thing again….its really an issue for you isn’t it?
_”If you had a quid for every hour you have spent typing away at your little desk,”_
Damn! leave it alone Brad. You have issues with ‘things’ being ‘little’ – I get it, now come on. Stop exposing your little thing for everyone to laugh at dude ;o)
_”you could afford the best education Britain has to offer for Megan.”_
I guess the exchange rate really has gone monumentally bad if £5 per week buys a good education in the US.
_”Instead, what you’ve got is a whole lot of nothing. Is this the best way to spend your time-“_
Best way? I dunno. A way? Yup. And I don’t intend to stop any time soon :o)
_”Up the meds for your self-professed bipolar disorder Kev (I guess you think that gives you ND street cred), none of us are listening.”_
Self professed? Of course it is. Who else would profess anything on my blog? Unless you think I’m going to invite my doc on here?
As for ND street cred. Ha! I think I have probably the lowest ND street cred on the planet right now.
And none of you are listening? Well, admittedly, it is difficult to hear the voices of 0.00038% of a community but please Brad, when you come on my blog, read an entry, respond to it and then tell people no one reads my blog you just make yourself look monumentally foolish.
The petition has signatures from around the world, several are in Italian. The usual names that you would expect to see are there; e.g., Rollens, Yabak, Best, Stone, Ash, Usman, a bunch of people who are using the petition to promote their own DAN!, homeopathy etc. practice.
I’ve run 2 samples of the signatures, 3 weeks apart. On both occasions, the Anoymous + the duplications were substantial: here, here, here, and here.
.
I’m suprised B.J. could pull himself (snicker-snicker) away from his weekly game of slap-ass w/ Kirby, Coleman, Schaffer, Nansteil, and that plaintiff atty from Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.
In the parenting groups I’ve been on, the toddler groups, the NCT coffee mornings, basically anywhere I’ve come into contact with other parents of babies and toddlers the number who don’t want their child to have the MMR is in a definite minority. The number who oppose vaccinations full stop as opposed to single vaccinations are positively miniscule.
Oh and well as being an Aspergers adult I am a parent of an autistic son. A son who, we have been told, has such severe communication and understanding difficulties, that, at this stage, education in a mainstream school isn’t an option for him. He requires a lot of help and support every day, we are still working on trying to get him to tell us if he’s in pain, or cold, or hungry. Simple conversations along the lines of “I playing with my trains” are a long way off. He has routines that he has to follow each day to help him make sense of things. There is no doubt that he is on the autistic spectrum. Not once have I ever thought not to get him vaccinated. I would rather have him as he is, healthy, happy and learning at his own pace and on his own path than run the risk of him having an adverse reaction to, say, measles, or passing the infection onto a more vulnerable child.
Some People are under the mis-impression that scientific knowledge is determined by popular vote rather than repeatedly verifiable facts!
Well sorry, it isn’t. Things do not become true merely for wanting them to be, or because they would fit your world-view better. Those methods operate in the realm of religion and personal belief systems. They Just. Won’t. Work. in the realm of science and medicine.
“Some People are under the mis-impression that scientific knowledge is determined by popular vote rather than repeatedly verifiable facts!”
Quite right.
But even if you accept their argument, they are wrong in any case. The majority of parents still vaccinate with MMR. Of the minority that do not use MMR vaccine, the majority are likely to be those scared by extremist activists into doubting the safety of MMR vaccine, rather than true believers in the MMR-autism hypothesis (sorry, I mean tenet of faith in the Church of The Latter Day Dr Andrew Wakefield).
So I think we can safely say that Kev is in the large majority of rationale individuals, rather than the small minority of cranks and their brainwashed dupes who continue to endanger children be spreading evidence-free quackery.
Hi Folks. Is this science?
1 ppb mercury = Kills human neuroblastoma cells (Parran et al., Toxicol Sci 2005).
2 ppb mercury = U.S. EPA limit for drinking water (http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/index.html#mcls).
20 ppb mercury = Dendritic cells damaged, calcium channels interrupted (UC-Davis MIND Institute, 2006).
200 ppb mercury = level in liquid the EPA classifies as hazardous waste (http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/mercury/regs.htm#hazwaste)
600 ppb mercury = Level in a currently licensed Hepatitis B, multi-dose vaccine vial, labeled as trace. This is administered at birth.
2,000 ppb mercury = 0.50-mL injections of Thimerosal-containing vaccines (FDA CBER’s definition of “trace”).
25,000 ppb mercury= Concentration of mercury in multi-dose, Hepatitis B vaccine vials, administered at birth from 1990-2000 in the U.S. Not administered at birth in any other developed country.
50,000 ppb mercury = Concentration of mercury in DTaP and Haemophilus B vaccine administered 8 times in the 1990’s to children at 2, 4, 6, 12 and 18 months of age. Current “preservative” level mercury in flu, meningococcal and tetanus (7 and older) vaccines.
Good strawmen Good Mercury. All – and I do mean all – of the points you raise have absolutely nothing to do with mercury causing autism.
Brad, if you’re right, let’s see a rebuttal of the arguments and testimony. Is ad-hominem all you got? I think so.
You say there aren’t that many bloggers on this side of the debate. Where are the bloggers on your side? Kirby and Ginger? They don’t even engage or allow debate.
You think you are in the majority? Doesn’t look like it from the traffic Generation Rescue and SafeMinds get, compared to, say, this very blog.
Mercury Dad–
This isn’t a popularity contest. The GMC isn’t getting together to decide if Andy should be King of the Prom. They are deciding if he acted unethically.
A scientist can be wrong. He/she can make mistakes. However, Wakefield published something with major impact–knowing but not disclosing that there are serious questions as to the validity of the data. He knew that he had an undisclosed conflict of interest.
But, you know all that. And that’s the problem.
You and others shouldn’t be convinced by Kev. You should be convinced by the facts, though.
Matt
Kevin, thanks for making my point, and demonstrating your wizadry with numbers when you wrote:
“Well, Kathleen’s petition about Boyd Haley’s slur against autistic people as being mad gained over 500 signatures.”
My point exactly! During the “mad-cow affair” which was the ND heyday, the Super Bowl of NDs, you got 500 signatures. And, Wakefield has 14-times as many. Thank you!! On the NDs best freaking day ever, a day when they really had a cause, they were 1/14th of the signatures Wakefield has right now.
Kevin, its worth pointing out your analysis of our survey here, the one where you demonstrated that you had the mathematical skills of a fourth grader repeating third grade, the one where you thought the difference between a 3% prevalence and a 1% prevalence was 2%, the one where your own peeps tried to correct you, the one where I mercifully wrote you privately to correct your faulty math, you know, that one. What I learned from that is that you don’t have the aptitude to understand science, so what position are you actually in to comment on it? If I gave you a thorough analysis of why the CDC/pediatrics and the SSI/Denmark/NEJM studies were faulty, there is no way you would even understand why, because you can’t perform basic math.
This leads me to think you have chosen to rely on people you deem to be “experts” which is part of what got us all into this whole mess in the first place.
Further, it seems that you have decided quackery includes anything that isn’t yet a “mainstream” treatment for autism, whatever that means, despite the fact that you have personally tried very little of the “quackery” you claim to be committed to fighting.
This is what perhaps galls me the most. No one in the mainstream can explain why certain kids are autistic. No cures are offered. Meanwhile, thousands of parents and hundreds of Doctors are busting ass and recovering kids, and they are the fucking enemy? Unbelievable. And, you haven’t tried 95% of what they claim is working for kids, but you are in a position to call it “quackery”?
At the same time, your “friends” on this blog contain many adult autistics who are 100% conversational and capable of writing well-crafted, structured arguments and you somehow think they are like your daughter, the one who doesn’t yet talk? If she’s not talking as an adult (and I certainly hope she is), will they still be your daughter’s kinfolk, these “adult autistics”, some of whom “discovered” they were autistic in college!!
Kevin, for some reason you have chosen to pick fights with almost every well-meaning parent on our side of the table. None of them knew you, none of them had a beef with you, and yet you’ve chosen to attack them and me, somehow in the name of helping your daughter. You drew first blood with each and every one of us. Most don’t have the time to respond to your annoying dribbles, but its worth my time to defend them and defend the parents and doctors working hard to recover our kids, despite idiots like you.
If we were on a rugby pitch, Kev, I’d put my boot in your eye and twist, and no I have no size issues, thanks for asking – is that interest part of your bi-polarity issue? I wasn’t the little guy on the playground getting picked on, I was the big guy who knew how to fight on the playground defending the little kids who were being picked on by shrill, antagonistic, self-indulgent assholes like you.
MercuryDad
Good Mercury, what does this have to do with the MMR vaccine? It has never once had thimerosal in it… so that should not be an issue.
Could one of you “Mercury” guys answer this question: The MMR vaccine in question was approved for use in the USA in 1971, and later in the UK in 1988. The switch for the UK was because the Merck vaccine had a much safer mumps component (you can read about in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinated-Defeat-Worlds-Deadliest-Diseases/dp/0061227951/ ). So why is it that is was only in the UK that there seemed to a problem more than twenty years after it was developed?
Let me address the parts-per-billion argument, just for fun, even though it has nothing to do with autism, as noted.
What Good Mercury is arguing is that the EPA safety limit for drinking water is 2 ppb mercury, whereas thimerosal-containing vaccines can have up to 50,000 ppb mercury. (I don’t know if this last number is correct, but I’ll take his word for it).
Without thinking it through, sounds like a pretty amazing difference and negligent in the part of health authorities, doesn’t it?
What you have to ask is *why* guidelines are defined the way they are. Driking water and vaccines are different animals, mainly because we drink liters of water every day whereas we only get vaccinated a few times in our lifetime. It makes sense that the ppb guidelines on drinking water would be that low.
What matters is how much mercury total we consume in some span of time. The parts-per-billion only matter within some other known context, such as knowing that we drink a couple litters of water a day. To put it another way, if you empty a thimerosal-containing vaccine in a couple buckets of water, all of the sudden the parts-per-billion get drastically reduced.
Given these considerations, a well-known and better comparison is that a TCV contains about the same amount of mercury as a tuna sandwich. (And no, there’s no evidence that injecting is worse than ingesting).
_You say there aren’t that many bloggers on this side of the debate. Where are the bloggers on your side? Kirby and Ginger? They don’t even engage or allow debate._
Yeah, Ginger (ever playing the holier-than-thou card), pasted back up her blog about Kirby’s outing affair on Huffpo, saying something like it went against everything she stood for to delete things. Huh? The pages of Ginger’s comments to her blog posts, which she has deleted, will soon be as many as the pages in GWTW.
Joseph, Thanks for responding. Let’s just consider the EPA hazardous waste level of 200 ppb Hg and the 50,000 ppb Hg level in a vaccine. They can spin this anyway they want. Reality is that 500 microliters of a 50,000 ppb solution of mercury is being injected into pregnant women and kids. This is a fact! As far as the tuna argument, mercury in fish is tightly bound to protein and then must go through the digestive track where much of it is eliminated. It is not free, unbound mercury like vaccines. Tuna is usually consumed by adults. Pregnant women are told not to eat it. HN, I know thimerosal was never used in the MMR. It would instantly kill the 3 live viruses. My response was in regards to the exchange between Kev and MercuryDad.
This is getting ridiculous. Frankly I have spent the day halfway wondering if the Mercury Dad post is an elaborate joke or a prank. I know some (a few,as they truly are in the small minority, though a vocal one) mercury parents and can’t imagine any of them being allied with a person who would write in this manner.
Well he must be incredibly rattled, Kev. Weird stuff.
The other side of the coin to the lies, are the attempts to suppress the truth. Everybody probably now knows how Ms Thomas et al came to court before the US Cedillo hearing to try to obstruct the release of the evidence that O’Leary’s lab never published accurate information, and that, according to Bustin, no measles virus was found at all.
Today, it was the same old story. Wakefield’s GMC hearing was delayed most of the day by efforts to prevent material from the Legal Services Commission, which goes to what the GMC alleges is financial fraud by Wakefield, from being used in the GMC hearing.
Again it was an effort to prevent the jigsaw from being assembled: in other words to block the truth from coming out.
The “parents'” effort failed again,,just as the efforts failed over Bustin, and failed over my publication of information on the litigants.
But you have to wonder how people who claim to have been treated unjustly look at themselves in the mirror when they resort to this kind of behaviour.
_”My point exactly! During the “mad-cow affair†which was the ND heyday, the Super Bowl of NDs, you got 500 signatures. And, Wakefield has 14-times as many. Thank you!! On the NDs best freaking day ever, a day when they really had a cause, they were 1/14th of the signatures Wakefield has right now.”_
Oh Brad, Brad, Brad – come on, you can do better than that, surely. Did your reading comprehension suddenly fail after that point? Did you miss the part where I outlined exactly the level of small fry you are? Or did you (as usual) just pick the bits you like and ignore the bits you don’t?
_”Kevin, its worth pointing out your analysis of our survey here, the one where you demonstrated that you had the mathematical skills of a fourth grader repeating third grade, the one where you thought the difference between a 3% prevalence and a 1% prevalence was 2%, the one where your own peeps tried to correct you, the one where I mercifully wrote you privately to correct your faulty math, you know, that one. What I learned from that is that you don’t have the aptitude to understand science, so what position are you actually in to comment on it? If I gave you a thorough analysis of why the CDC/pediatrics and the SSI/Denmark/NEJM studies were faulty, there is no way you would even understand why, because you can’t perform basic math.”_
Dam Brad, do you _still_ not get that? Its really, really simple. You don’t _have_ to be a maths whizz Bradders. You just have to know that any survey that establishes a prevalence of 1 in 21 is shit. Anything that comes after that is equally shit. But lets look again at your glorious survey seeing as you seem to need a bit more schooling. In that aggregated 11 – 17 age group (the one you stress as being important), please could you provide me with a statistical analysis of the differences between the fully vaccinated group and the non vaccinated group in all the ASD groupings? Or hey, lets do it for you.
Ages 11-17, all kids:
Aspergers (unvaccinated): 1%
Aspergers (full vaccinated): 2%
Thats a difference of 1%.
PDD-NOS (unvaccinated): 1%
PDD-NOS (full vaccinated): 1%
No difference.
autism (unvaccinated): 2%
autism (full vaccinated): 2%
No difference.
ASD (unvaccinated): 3%
ASD (full vaccinated): 3%
So, please – what is your statistical analysis of those results from your survey Bradders?
_”Further, it seems that you have decided quackery includes anything that isn’t yet a “mainstream†treatment for autism, whatever that means, despite the fact that you have personally tried very little of the “quackery†you claim to be committed to fighting.”_
Its really very simply Bradders. If it is not indicated its quackery. If it further has a rep for causing damage and death then its quackery.
_”This is what perhaps galls me the most. No one in the mainstream can explain why certain kids are autistic. No cures are offered.”_
Boo-Hoo. Get over it amigo. Life’s not fair and sometimes Stanford treasurers can’t buy their kid a quick fix.
_”Meanwhile, thousands of parents and hundreds of Doctors are busting ass and recovering kids, and they are the fucking enemy?”_
Where? What kids? Why, if I had a pound for every time I’d asked you this question and you’d not answered I could buy Megan the best education in the UK! And no, 99% of parents aren’t the enemy. You however – an established liar – are most certainly the enemy. You are an enemy of these parents, you are an enemy of any autistic person who would like a bit of respect for who they are, you are the enemy of parents who’s kids have died or been hospitalised as a result of your unfounded antivax scaremongering and you are the enemy of reason and logic.
_”And, you haven’t tried 95% of what they claim is working for kids, but you are in a position to call it “quackeryâ€?”_
Uh, yeah. I’ve never jumped out of a plane without a parachute but I’m in a position where I think that’s pretty stupid too.
_”At the same time, your “friends†on this blog contain many adult autistics who are 100% conversational and capable of writing well-crafted, structured arguments and you somehow think they are like your daughter, the one who doesn’t yet talk? If she’s not talking as an adult (and I certainly hope she is), will they still be your daughter’s kinfolk, these “adult autisticsâ€, some of whom “discovered†they were autistic in college!!”_
You really can’t figure it out can you? Everything is black and white in Bradders world and a cure should be buyable by daddy’s with the right connections. Sorry Brad, this is real life. Snap out of your denial trip and get on with it. What has writing well crafted structured arguments got to do with an autism diagnosis? I can tell you this till I’m blue in the face and you’re never ever going to get it. Its the same reason you thought Meg’s story was a real recovery story. You cannot differentiate between growth, change and treatment. Until you can, you’ll never get it.
_”Kevin, for some reason you have chosen to pick fights with almost every well-meaning parent on our side of the table. None of them knew you, none of them had a beef with you, and yet you’ve chosen to attack them and me, somehow in the name of helping your daughter. You drew first blood with each and every one of us. Most don’t have the time to respond to your annoying dribbles, but its worth my time to defend them and defend the parents and doctors working hard to recover our kids, despite idiots like you.”_
So first of all its not worth your time and you don’t listen, then when I pointed out the stupidness of saying that on my blog it _is_ worth your time? Get your story straight idiot.
I’m afraid you have a twisted version of history. Fortunately, one of the great things about this silly little (oops!) blog is that its all recorded for posterity. Why if people wanted to, they could see yours and mine first ever exchange and decide for themselves who was being polite and who was not.
_”If we were on a rugby pitch, Kev, I’d put my boot in your eye and twist”_
Terrifying I’m sure. However, whilst you were trying to coerce your forebrain to complete that action, I’d have skipped past you, scored a try and converted it. Know why? Because you can’t get your head around being beaten on a personal level Bradders. Me? I know this isn’t personal. That’s why I don’t care what you do on a personal level. I’m concentrating on what’s important – you’re playing catch up for the next scrimmage. Story of your life I suspect – always playing catch up ;o)
_”and no I have no size issues, thanks for asking – is that interest part of your bi-polarity issue?”_
Why? Are you asking me for a date?
_”I wasn’t the little guy on the playground getting picked on, I was the big guy who knew how to fight on the playground”_
Ooohh, revealing…..
_”defending the little kids who were being picked on by shrill, antagonistic, self-indulgent assholes like you.”_
…but a nice save in the end. Did Mrs H remind you to put that bit on? And hey, Bradders? Next time you want some education, you just step right up sonny.
“Thanks for responding. Let’s just consider the EPA hazardous waste level of 200 ppb Hg and the 50,000 ppb Hg level in a vaccine. They can spin this anyway they want. Reality is that 500 microliters of a 50,000 ppb solution of mercury is being injected into pregnant women and kids. This is a fact!”
Again, those are guidelines for drinking water, are they not? It makes no sense to use that as a guideline for thimerosal in tiny amounts of vaccines, as it would make no sense to use those as guidelines for mercury in tuna. (Also, I am not aware if “they” have spun this in any way – I’m just trying to explain what’s obvious if you just apply some critical thinking to it).
Here’s a clearler example. Suppose we have 1 microgram of water and you add 1 microgram of mercury to it. You will end up with a solution containing 500 million ppb of mercury, or 250 million times the EPA safety limit. Is it safe to drink, yes or no?
Forgetting Brad and back to MMR,
the Observer carried an execrable piece of journalism that attempted to link MMR to a spurious rise in autism which brought a torrent of responses from outraged readers. This one is particularly interesting, coming from Fiona Scott, a Cambridge researcher who was quoted by the reporter without ever being interviewed.
” feel, given that I was one of the two ‘leaders in the field’ (flattering, but rather an exaggeration) reported as linking MMR to the rise in autism, that I should quite clearly and firmly point out that I was never contacted by and had no communication whatsoever with the reporter who wrote the infamous Observer article. It is somewhat amazing that my ‘private beliefs’ can be presented without actually asking me what they are. What appeared in the article was a flagrant misrepresentation of my opinions – unsurprising given that they were published without my being spoken to.
It is outrageous that the article states that I link rising prevalence figures to use of the MMR. I have never held this opinion. I do not think the MMR jab ‘might be partly to blame’. As for it being a factor in ‘a small number of children’, had the journalist checked with me it would have been clear that my view is in line with Vivienne Parry of the JCVI. The ‘small number’ was misrepresented by being linked inappropriately and inaccurately with ‘rise in prevalence’, leading readers to arguably infer that it is in fact NOT a small number!
I wholeheartedly agree with Prof Baron-Cohen, and many of the posts and responses received to date, that the article was irresponsible and misleading. Furthermore I reiterate that it was inappropriate in including views and comments attributed to me and presented as if I had input into the article when I had not (and still have not)ever been contacted by the journalist in question. I am taking the matter under advisement. ”
Read all the comments here http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2126631,00.html
I sent my comments direct to the Readers Editor but you can read them on my blog.
“I was the big guy who knew how to fight on the playgroundâ€
That’s code for: “I was the one who bullied little kids, some probably on the spectrum, and now I’m stuck with one.”
I’ve noticed how, when he posts comments on other, more “public” sites (such as forums for news stories about autism), Mr. Handley seems to go with the reserved, judicious, “gosh-i’m-just-doing-my-best-to-help” shtick.
Then he comes here and slings the noxious schoolyard stuff about Diva’s “trailer” and Brian Deer’s size (WTF?) and his desire to stick a boot in Kevin’s face, along with random insults about bipolarity and the like. That’s on top of his memorably inane stunt a while back of hijacking domain names for Diva, Orack and others.
Bad science aside, it’s pretty hard to muster respect for a guy who acts like that.
“Joseph, Thanks for responding. Let’s just consider the EPA hazardous waste level of 200 ppb Hg and the 50,000 ppb Hg level in a vaccine. They can spin this anyway they want. Reality is that 500 microliters of a 50,000 ppb solution of mercury is being injected into pregnant women and kids.”
Well, looks like a little spin of your own. Why not just spin to this:
The rest of the vaccine is what would be called a biohazard! If not used, it’s “Infectious Waste” with special rules for disposal! Oh No! We are injecting our kids with “infectious waste”!
Did you know that before they injected my child with a vaccine…well…I hesitate to say that I let them do this…they wiped the area with Alcohol! Yes, a “known neurotoxin” was used!
Here’s a hint–“the dose makes the poison”. Don’t believe me? Check presentations by the Geiers….better yet, check the word of scientists.
I.e., it isn’t what is injected, it is how much and what is the effect. Lot’s of studies have been done which show no link between the amount of mercury presently or historically used in a vaccine and autism.
Matt
The *weird* thing is Brad’s been told that I don’t live in a trailer (or mobile home or anything similar,) so even in slamming me as being poor (or whatever he’s getting at) he’s lying.
But isn’t it interesting how he thinks that **if** he was taller than Kevin (I think not) he’d think he was smarter than Kevin. I’m not entirely sure that Brad is taller than I am, in fact… anyway, taller means better and smarter, and Stanford means better and smarter, and more money means better and smarter… somehow I’m not convinced.
Should be interesting to see what happens to the DAN!/biomed movement if it becomes known widely that Wakers whole vaccine/autism link was a fraud. It doesn’t take much to show that the US vaccine/autism link was based off the fraudulent Wakers vaccine/autism link. It’s an easy trail to follow, actually from the solicitors who approached Wakers with the “sue the vaccine makers” idea to SAFE MINDS, Kirby and NAA, GR and the rest.
The “epidemic” belief system is unravelling as we speak, too. There won’t be much left for the litigant parents and DAN!ites to hang on to.
Diva,
you got it wrong…he is “sending a film crew to your trailer”. I’m sure he thinks you are on the backlot somewhere filming your next epic.
J.B., I’m ready for my closeup now…
Matt
_”Kev, I have no idea how you put up with that jackass. Kudos to you; you’re a better man than I.”_
Well, its twofold really. Firstly, as someone with a history of interacting with the mental health system, one becomes used to dealing with people who produce a lot of noise. Secondly, I know that the more pissed Brad is, the more I have got under his skin and said something he really didn’t want people to know. I like that :o)
“according to the CIA Factbook 27.4% of the world population (6,602,224,175) are under 15 which gives us a figure of 1,809,009,423.9. Your 7,000 represent 0.00038% of the international autism community.”
Factual, but not representative of the support that the petition has shown which you’re desperately trying to belittle. If EVERYONE in the international autism community had been asked to read the petition and only 7,000 people agreed to sign, you would be right. However, as only a TINY proportion have actually seen it (passed on mostly by word of mouth) the number of signatures (now 9499) shows what a strength of feeling there is in support of HELPING SICK CHILDREN (something the angry anti-parent/children lot on here never care to mention) and supporting the doctors who were willing to stand up for what they believed in.
Why not take a moment…seriously…to read a few of the comments on there.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/GMC/signatures.html
It’s about helping the children. If you reply to this with a reasoned, sensible response, avoiding childish personal attacks, it would be refreshing and welcome.
Andy – if there’s one thing assured to piss me off its people telling me what I should and shouldn’t do on my own blog. Particularly when the points they’re attempting to make are rubbish.
I’m pretty sure that just about every parents of an autistic child in the UK must’ve heard of the Wakefield hearing given that its been on TV, in every newspaper I can think of and discussed ad nauseum online. 7,000 is 5% of the entirety of the autism community who signed the petition. 9499 is 7%. In fact, given that children have two parents its really very much less.
This petition isn’t about supporting sick children, its a show of support for Andrew Wakefield. If this was a petition to raise awareness of sick autistic children then one of the signatures on it would be mine. Are you aware of the utter stupidity of referring to this blog as ‘anti-parent/children’ when I _am_ a parent who has three children?
I’m sorry Andy but in the UK autism community, Wakefield in reality gets very little support. Internationally, its even less. You might not like it, but that’s the way it is.
“if there’s one thing assured to piss me off its people telling me what I should and shouldn’t do on my own blog.” It was a suggestion. Learn to deal with it in a public blog area.
“Particularly when the points they’re attempting to make are rubbish.” Nice generalisation there. Very amusing.
“I’m pretty sure that just about every parents of an autistic child in the UK must’ve heard of the Wakefled hearing” Yes indeed – but not the petition. That hasn’t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.
“In fact, given that children have two parents its really very much less.” Gross generalisation, and totally irrelvant to the fact that parents are individuals and have their own opinions. Both a mothers and a fathers signature are valid.
“This petition isn’t about supporting sick children,” Er…yes it is. Try reading it.
“its a show of support for Andrew Wakefield.” Yes, it’s this as well.
“Are you aware of the utter stupidity of referring to this blog as ‘anti-parent/children’ when I am a parent who has three children?” Not stupid at all. I’ve seen the attacks on parents with damaged children on this blog and it’s a disgrace.
“but in the UK autism community, Wakefield in reality gets very little support. ” That’s 9503 signatures now based mainly on word of mouth. There are lots of professionals and doctors signatures on there as well. The National Autism Association supports him too.
“Internationally, its even less.” What were all those thousands of flowers from America doing outside the GMC building then? And those boards full of messages? You might not like it, but that’s the way it is.
One last thing – why are all those children ill? Not just with autism, but serious medical conditions. Why won’t the government investigate them properly? I look forward to your clever reasoning with alacrity.
Just out of curiosity, how are the signatures being collected? Doesn’t look like there’s a form on that website. Are duplicates checked? I know that when Kev collects signatures he at least checks for duplicate IPs, and on occasion has caught some jokers (e.g. Nanstiel) trying to pass themselves as Rain Man or something of the sort.
It’s also like comparing apples to oranges. When Kev has collected signatures it’s not because of a highly publicised news story that appeared in several prominent newspapers. All the publicity in those cases comes from one or a few blog posts. Under these circumstances, 9,000 is really not that much, considering the signatures probably come not only from the UK but also the US and other countries. In any case, it’s 9,000 people who either ignore what Andrew Wakefiled did, are in denial about it, or don’t give a crap about scientific ethics.
Yep, I just tested it. Go to the last page in the signature list and you will find I signed as Duplicate Number1 and Duplicate Number2.
“ALL of the anonymous entries are identifiable by those of us monitoring the petition as ALL petitioners (whether anonymous or not) are required to provide their email address, which is visible to us but is not visible publicly. These will be made available and visible to the GMC panel (under the guidelines of the site providers) when the petition is presented to them. At this stage ALL entries will be identifiable as unique. Also note that many people have signed on behalf of entire families and in some instances entire companies ”
http://www.autismvox.com/petition-for-wakefield-who-do-you-believe/
Sorry folks – try as you might to belittle the numbers….
Hmmm….my last two posts haven’t appeared. Am I being censored now?
Some of the siggies on tha petition are from those PROTESTING the petitiion itself. I saw a couple of “ANONs” who wrote their objections about the petition in the comment box.
As for popularity in numbers (among the masses), I hear Manson gets more fan mail annually than any other prisoner in the US.
Any duplications are checked and removed regularly. Your spotting irregularities is very useful, so thank you.
Interesting statistic about Manson. Equally as useful, did you know that Father Christmas receives more letters at Christmas time than any other fictional character?
You’re right Nigel, that’s a better comparison because the foundation of Waker’s premise (and paper) is utter fiction. Thank-you!
Ah, you misunderstand me curesRus. I disagree with you, as do many others. Your comparison was Reductio Ad Absurdum.
Yes, Nigel, I am aware that Wakers is winning the popularity contest. That’s precisely my point. The popular view in this case does not equate to the scientific truth. Moverever, no one is trying to prevent anyone from helping kids with issues. What’s actually absurd is your statement here:
_â€they may be struck-off the medical register for daring to investigate why these children are so ill, which no-one else has been prepared to doâ€_
They’re not going to be “struck-off” for investigating; I didn’t see that in the list of charges.
For what it’s worth, I think you’re a good brother, but you’re seriously misled. Did you read what Bustin had to say in the very-recent court case? Did you read Chadwick’s testimony? They “dared” to investigate as well.
Thanks for saying that CuresRus – I’m trying to be.
I think the colonoscopies etc are on the list of charges. The petition honestly isn’t about a popularity contest, and it’s not just about Dr Wakefield. My brothers are seriously ill. Terry’s in constant pain. It’s not right, and the Department of Health should do more to investigate why so many children are ill. They should take these children and do open and proper tests to find out the cause of what’s wrong and publish the results for the world to see (hopefully then finding something that can help them). Whoever’s right in all this, until more independent research is done a lot of people are going to remain unconvinced.
All the best,
Nigel.
Nigel Thomas speaks only the truth and that is from first hand experience.
I have read thousands of articles and blogs about this subject and I am still shocked that people are still wanting to ignore the fact that adverse reactions can happen from vaccines. No vaccine is 100 percent safe, if they were 100 percent safe “Why do we have The Vaccine Damage Payment Unit in Britainâ€.
The evidence and proof we need to win in court is staring us in the face, it’s the children. It’s a lonely world for the children and an equally lonely world for the parents and siblings. With our child’s legal aid having been cancelled by the UK Legal Services Commission we feel cheated yet again. It is diabolical that our son has not ever had the chance to be examined for brain damage and adverse effects from the MMR vaccine. The drug companies claim that the MMR vaccine is safe and does not cause autism, IBD, epilepsy, deafness, arthritis and worst of all death, yet Merck and Co.’s own material information sheets list most of these reactions. We feel that the original trials carried out on the vaccine were not adequate enough and many learned men have agreed that the time span of three weeks following the injection is just not long enough.
Don’t forget these same companies are also making profit on the vaccine damaged children who are been prescribed Ritelin and anti depressants etc. First they cause the problem and then make more money trying to solve the problem which results in more damaged children and adults. Who do these people think they are, that they can destroy lives. I would urge any parent against using prescribed drugs for their children’s behaviour and rather look at their diet and mineral supplements.
The pharmaceutical companies can well afford to compensate families who are telling the truth and by doing so the taxpayer will not have to fork out vast amounts of money to pay for services. It’s pathetic that the multi-billion pound companies are in fact harming a larger percentage of our children and getting away with it. While the ordinary decent working person is paying for their mistakes.
The last eleven plus years have taught us a lot about compassion and searching for the truth. We are here to care, love and to teach the children, as they are the innocent ones. If it turns out that money is more important than life, then it will be a very sorry state of affairs. Fortunately most of the time, my son is a loving, smiley, happy child but as we have seen that can always change as he gets older and more frustrated at not being able to get his needs across. Sometimes we wonder how our family has stayed together. We have had to at times work very hard.
We are reminded every day that our son is autistic, and every day we feel guilty. We allowed his system to be overloaded with an unsafe vaccine when he was just a small child. His little body was only just starting to develop. A consent form was signed, believing and trusting in the system. Now we listen to him trying to participate when we are saying our prayers at night. Dr Wakefield is a great doctor and I am proud to know him.
Okay, Joan Campbell… YOU tell us what scientific studies show that the present MMR is causing all these problems!
Give us the paper that are published and indexed as real scientific journals that show the MMR is causing autism. Show where they repudiate all the large studies in several countries covering hundreds of thousands of children that show no link between the MMR and autism.
While you are at it… explain why the MMR that was approved for use in the USA in 1971, only seemed to start causing problems in the UK a full twenty years after it was developed.
Don’t give a random little graph that Nigel posted. Give me real verifiable scientific proof.
Or at the very least, a link to the paper(s) that replicated Wakefield’s “research”.
I also want you and Nigel to compare the risks involved in getting the MMR versus getting the actual disease. So how is the MMR more dangerous than getting measles? How is the MMR more dangerous than getting mumps? And finally how is the MMR more dangerous than rubella? For the last one you might want to wander over to this site: http://www.sense.org.uk/
To sum up Joan Campbell’s argument: Vaccines have adverse reactions sometimes, therefore they cause autism. That’s the gist of it.
“Fortunately most of the time, my son is a loving, smiley, happy child but as we have seen that can always change as he gets older and more frustrated at not being able to get his needs across.”
He’ll be frustrated to have parents who are insisting on fixing him. Trust me on that one.
Just to throw this into the mix. As a journalist checking this shambles since 1998. It’s interesting that the first two facts thrown at me by government didn’t stand up. The first was that MMR has eradicated measles. Check the ONS figures back to 1890 and you’ll see that the measles problem was solving itself nicely without intervention. The graph had virtually flatlined before any medical intervention, meaning that the single measles jab and the MMR had very little to do with the reduction in deaths. Plot a graph logarithmically and you’ll see that deaths from measles would have ceased quite naturally this year. To put deaths from measles into perspective, the year the MMR was introduced there were 16 deaths. Deaths from asthma currently stand at around 1500 annually…
When the medical profession disected Wakefield’s peer reviewed 1998 study, in a newsletter titled ‘problems in pharmacology’ (monthly newsletter to GPs, interestingly titled) they concluded that they could neither prove nor refute the findings. They felt this was enough to recommend continued use of the MMR. I wonder why they didn’t recommend further research so that they could conclusively prove or refute?
In the chronology of the affair I’ve been noticing that newspapers have continually forgotten to list that the MMR jab was withdrawn here – as it was in Canada and Japan – because the cheap version they introduced was causing encephalitis and meningitis. All the children in Wakefield’s study had received this jab with the Urabe strain of mumps.
The children who’ve allegedly died from measles: So far we have no names, only newspaper reports. What do we really know about these kids? Do we know whether they actually existed – if so, someone put me in touch with a parent so I can interview them. Do we know whether their immune systems were compromised in some way? Do we know whether they were taking immunosuppresant drugs? We know very little about them. What we know after centuries of catching measles is that healthy children do not die of measles. I suspect most of the authors here over 40 have all had measles. I know I certainly have and I don’t seem to be impaired in any way – even at this late hour.
What we can conclude is that we are not being given the full picture. Nothing here is transparent and until the facts from both sides are laid out on the table, we really won’t know. I’m looking forward to following the GMC hearing.