Autism Blog - Of Rashid Buttar and Stephen Hawking

23 Apr 2006

Author: Kev
Comments: 231

Of Rashid Buttar and Stephen Hawking

I was recently sent the following link (thank you JNB ;o) ) which announces the creation of the ‘Cutler Hawking Project’. At first I suspected the formation of some soft rock combo but a quick glance at the site in question soon alleviated my doubts.

The majority of people need very strong evidence before they start believing in non-mainstream treatments, and this is the reason why we decided to contact Stephen Hawking to convince him to try Andy Cutler’s chelation protocol – so he can serve as an example. Confining him to a wheelchair since his mid 20’s, Mr. Hawking is a brilliant and famous English physicist who is suffering tragically from Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, a disease caused by chronic mercury poisoning. Now 63, he can only speak with the help of a computer voice synthesizer.

Oh, it gets better.

The reason why we selected Mr. Hawking is because of his very unique situation. If we convince a man of his mega-stature in the scientific community to try Andy Cutler’s protocol and he subsequently recovers from such debility, that would convince even the biggest of skeptics. Because Mr. Hawking has been confined to a wheelchair for such a long time, and since he is so famous, no doctor could come up with another reasonable excuse for his recovery, and no doctor could write it off as a faked illness, as it would be too obvious that the mercury amalgam & vaccine issue is real and that Andy Cutler’s mercury chelation protocol really works. Mr. Hawking would be living proof! There is no other person in the world that could make a stronger case! It makes a dynamic difference when you see a celebrity talk about a certain treatment, and see that person get out of the wheelchair after 35 years and walk again, and we believe that news channels would report on this “miracle” worldwide!

OK, so here’s a group of people who believe first and foremost that a whole range of things are caused by mercury poisoning – autism, bad backs, and apparently Motor Neurone Disease has now joined that elite group. Lucky lucky Professor Hawking. Why lucky? Because chelation will cure him Yay!!

Except…neither Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, nor indeed any other forum of neurone disease is caused by mercury poisoning. The official line is:

The cause of ALS is not known, and scientists do not yet know why ALS strikes some people and not others…in searching for the cause of ALS, researchers have also studied environmental factors such as exposure to toxic or infectious agents. Other research has examined the possible role of dietary deficiency or trauma. However, as of yet, there is insufficient evidence to implicate these factors as causes of ALS…Future research may show that many factors, including a genetic predisposition, are involved in the development of ALS.

Sounds strangely familiar doesn’t it?

And so we’re presented with the mental picture of some fairly odd people attempting to bother a sick old man just so they can try and persuade him to undergo some therapy. Nice.

And yet, it’s still not as bad as another treatment I heard about. Apparently Dr Rashid Buttar, adored by mercury boys and girls all over the world, the man who can cure cancer and reverse old age as well as cure autism with skin cream recommends another intriguing treatment for young kids – and this time, he’s not confining it to autistic kids: oh no, this ones good for everyone :

Have any of your tried, or even heard anything about, doing urine shots to help the immune system? I don’t know much about it yet, but I know you use your child’s own urine, and filter it with special filters, before injecting it into their hip. I’ve heard really good things about it from a friend who tried it.

No, its not a joke. The answers came thick and fast:

I only know this was described to me to be a procedure used by Dr. Buttar about a year ago when my son was his patient, but the nurse said it would require an extended stay near the clinic and we live in Texas. We never tried it and moved on to another doctor.

Leslie, Chelatingkids2.

I’ll bet you did Leslie.

This was recommended by Dr. Buttar’s office for my NT son who has tons of allergies. I believe Dr. Imam in NY does it. It sounded too “out there” for us so we are currently sticking with justchelation for him.

Sangeeta, Chelatingkids2

Yeah, just chelation. That’s not ‘out there’ at all.

My grandson went through this beginning in October. It was a once a week treatment for 10 weeks. Before he began, he had lots of allergy problems that would often advance into sinus infection and ear infections. It’s almost April and he has not had one problem since. The only thing that I see is an occasional stuffy nose that lasts only a very short time.

andreagrammy.

Just in case you think you read it wrong, you didn’t. Rashid Buttar and others recommend taking some of the childs urine, filtering it and then injecting it back into them. This is apparently good for the immune system. Yummy.

Link to this post?

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Comments

231 Responses to “Of Rashid Buttar and Stephen Hawking”

Bronwyn G
April 23rd, 2006
07:33:16

I wasn’t aware that Hawking’s condition was caused by mercury poisoning.

These people will do anything!
Graham Bancroft
April 23rd, 2006
11:08:40

The scariest thing I think, is their sincerity. Please let me know when it’s safe to go outside again.
Kathleen Seidel
April 23rd, 2006
12:39:23

That ain’t just any old invocation of God’s wrath and mercy; it’s what judges say to defendants who are condemned to death.
clone3g
April 23rd, 2006
12:43:40

Did ALS show up around the same time as Kanner first described autism? I mean was it also an invention of Eli Lily?

Of course if Hawkings doesn’t take them up on the offer it’s because he’s too mercury toxic to think straight. Either that or he’s part of the conspiracy.

I wonder why they didn’t offer to chelate Bill Gates?
Joseph
April 23rd, 2006
13:21:11

Did ALS show up around the same time as Kanner first described autism? I mean was it also an invention of Eli Lily?

ALS was apparently first described in the 1860s. Alzheimer’s, another alleged misdiagnosis for mercury poisoning, was first described in 1906. I’m sure heart disease has been around for a very long time.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 23rd, 2006
13:38:28

I wonder if Stephen Hawkin knows about this project!

I just e-mailed him to let him know. If I hear anything, I’ll let you know.
bonni
April 23rd, 2006
13:51:43

I actually had to laugh out loud about this one. So, is everything bad caused by mercury?

I can just picture Prof. Hawking stepping out of his wheelchair, throwing his voice machine aside and shouting, “I can walk! Hallelujah, I can walk! And I can speak! Praise Chelation, I can speak!”

The mercury militia are showing all the signs of trying to turn themselves into a religion

I’ve thought that for a very long time.

Just waiting for the movement’s evangelists to show up here and explain all about Stephen Hawking and how he can be miraculously cured and we should all be ashamed of ourselves for our lack of faith.
Estee
April 23rd, 2006
15:05:33

This post really hits it on the head. Mercury is blamed for all kinds of mental illness for hundreds of years. We always need to blame the extrinsic instead of possibly, in some cases, accepting that many things are unique and intrinisic.
Orac
April 23rd, 2006
16:06:33

Actually, ALS involves abnormalities in glutamate signaling. Indeed, the only FDA-approved drug for the treatment of ALS (and the only drug known to slow its progression and delay death) is Riluzole. Its mechanism of action is blocking glutamate activity in the central nervous system.
sophia8
April 23rd, 2006
19:07:56

Why doesn’t Dr Buttar get his patients to try the ancient Ayurvedic health practiceof urine-drinking?
Maybe it’s because anybody can drink their own urine, for free, without paying Buttar to filter it and inject it?
Gosh, I’m soooo cynical. Obviously, I’m mercury-posioned.
Buttar cured my cellulite
April 23rd, 2006
20:46:37

ALS was invented by baseball player Lou Gehrig. And Eli-Lilly, but that goes without saying. Where are the mercury-hypothesis apologists? Sue M. must still be on that airplane soaking up the rads. Wade Rankin? Erik Nanstiel? Kevin Champagne? John Gilmore? Sallie B.? You guys givin’ your kids urine injections? Filtered urine, obviously. Have you tried the Bradstreet patented exorcism protocol? How was Professor Hawking able to think so well if mercury was “rotting his brain”? Has anyone thought about getting Buttar to take one of his own coffee enemas?
Andrew Cutler
April 23rd, 2006
21:21:25

Please note that I am in no way associated with, a sponsor of, nor someone who endorses this project.

Andy Cutler
Buttar cured my cellulite
April 23rd, 2006
21:47:07

Andrew Cutler,

What do you think of Buttar’s urine injections? You’re not too keen on the Lupron protocol are you? Erik Nanstiel thinks it’s great, he keeps talking about how it’s lowering his daughter’s sheets of testosterone, but non mentioning how it’s supposed to lower her estrogen, too. Bone density problems coming up?
Kev
April 23rd, 2006
22:15:13

“Please note that I am in no way associated with, a sponsor of, nor someone who endorses this project.”

Yeah, that’s spelled out pretty explicitly on the website. However, there’s no getting away from the fact that this project uses your name. Maybe you should suggest to your listmates that they should think of another name.
Buttar cured my cellulite
April 23rd, 2006
22:24:35

Think of how famous Andy Cutler would be if the Hawking-Cutler project worked out. He’d be as famous as , oh, lemme think, . . .

Professor Hawking!

Even as famous as Jeff Bradstreet or Rashid Buttar! “Andy’s Counting Rules” would be on everyone’s lips, and amalgams would be out of everyone’s teeth. But best of all, no more disease anywhere.
clone3g
April 23rd, 2006
22:56:08

Andrew Cutler : Please note that I am in no way associated with, a sponsor of, nor someone who endorses this project.

Yes, Andy has no problem offering medical advice without a medical degree or license, instructing parents on ways to give synthetic chemicals to autistic children, but offering to chelate Stephen Hawking? That’s just unethical.

I wonder how Ingri feels about the idea…..
Kassiane
April 24th, 2006
00:01:14

Mr Cutler, you may be in no way associated with this attempt to poison Stephen Hawking, but your website lists:

ALS
Asthma
ADHD
Addison’s disease, hypothyroidism, infertility, and generic “endocrine disorders” (forgot diabetes and hypopituitarism in there, sir)
Lupus, myasthenia gravis, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile arthritis, Crohn’s, and generic “autoimmune disorders”
Bipolar AND manic depression (what’s the difference?)
Anxiety, OCD, and panic (awful close for seperate listings, too)
Psychosis AND schizophrenia
PDDs
Borderline personality disorder (KNOWN to be caused by momma and daddy)
colitis, gastritis, and IBS (in case they aren’t similar enough)
Anorexia and Bulemia
Depression
Chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, environmental illness, allergies, and food allergies
Sciatica (caused by, like, damage to the sciatic nerve)
Parkinson’s
“Yeast syndrome” and candidaisis

Among things I probably forgot, ALL as caused by mercury.

Lots of redundancy, and yet…practiccally everything that can go wrong in the human body is caused by mercury?

That’s a sign of quackery you know. Saying THIS ONE THING is the cause or cure of everything under the sun.

So, in a way, you are associated. Because you convinced these mothers on a mission for hysteria that you had THE ANSWER for their autistic kids, and linked the supposed cause of autism to a conjectured cause of ALS.

“I’m not associated” sounds like CYA to me. Though you might want to avoid the need for your A to be C’d by not practicing medicine without a license.

Food for thought.
bonni
April 24th, 2006
02:19:03

Gosh, Iâ€™m soooo cynical. Obviously, Iâ€™m mercury-posioned.

Yes, cyncism and “lack of faith” (also known as “failure to believe”) are signs of mercury poisoning, too.
Buttar cured my cellulite
April 24th, 2006
02:36:51

Dr. Andy forgot cellulite, acne, halitosis and baldness. His counting rules and ALA cures them, too. Surely he claims to cure MS? Everyone claims to cure MS. Just buy his books, ok?
clone3g
April 24th, 2006
03:00:25

Oooh, mercury causes MS too? I heard that testosterone protects against MS and that may be one of the reasons why more women are affected.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/sto.....id=4058299
E-R-I-K N.
April 24th, 2006
03:15:32

Quote: “Erik Nanstiel thinks itâ€™s great, he keeps talking about how itâ€™s lowering his daughterâ€™s sheets of testosterone, but non mentioning how itâ€™s supposed to lower her estrogen, too. ”

We know that Lupron lowers estrogen. But since my daughter had NO DETECTABLE levels of estrogen in her… it is of lesser concern. Treating her high testosterone and high mercury levels is a bigger concern.

My daughter was tested with enough testosterone to put a boy her age into early puberty.

but of course, since she’s autistic, the lot of you want to ignore all that as a celebration of neuro-diversity!

What a crock!

Never heard of this urine stuff you’re talking about. That’s not a protocol used in the DAN movement. Lacking further information, it sounds gross.

But Lupron is beginning to turn heads. My daughter has made more progress this last month since we started the Geiers protocol than she’s had with any other biomedical intervention.

My early prediction is that the results will warrant further research and begin to be practiced by more and more DAN doctors… but I think they’ll want to see the results of the Geiers study when it’s finished. So far it’s looking really good.
Buttar cured my cellulite
April 24th, 2006
03:15:58

Then homeopathic doses of lupron should raise the testosterone and cure MS? How about homeopathic thimerosal? I heard it cures autism, just like, overnight! If I could get my hands on one of those bottles of thimerosal I could cure the world of autism. Several times over.
bonni
April 24th, 2006
03:27:09

Wow, Lupron has some really scary sounding side effects:

Side effects that have been associated with the use of Lupron Depot include hot flashes and/or night sweats in more than five percent of women; and palpitations, syncope, and tachycardia in less than five percent of the women who participated in clinical trials. Other side effects include generalized pain, headaches, vaginitis, nausea/vomiting, fluid retention, weight gain, acne, hirsutism, joint pain, decreased libido, depression, dizziness, nervousness, and breast changes that include tenderness and pain, among others. There have been no deaths directly related to therapy with Lupron Depot.

Mind you, that’s in adult women. I’m sure there are no studies on what the stuff will do (especially long term) to small children. At least it’s not known to be fatal (but then, neither was chelation).
Ms Clark
April 24th, 2006
03:45:52

E-R-I-K N,

You know about the order of magnitude error made by Dr. Geier, right? Just checking.

Don’t you think it’s a little weird that you daughter has no estrogen, and that it’s ok to wipe it out entirely with Lupron.

Have you checked out the Lupron Victims groups yet?

I heard that some DAN! doctors at the recent D.C. DAN! conference actively discouraged parents from trying Lupron. Maybe the know something you don’t?

So the Geiers went to an IRB and got approval to do this experimentation on non-existent sheets of testosterone? You know about the boiling

“Never mind that the Geiers based their concept of “testosterone sheets” on a paper from 1968 looking at the crystal structure of testosterone and mercuric chloride derived from crystals made by boiling equimolar amounts of testosterone and mercuric chloride in hot benzene…” – Prometheus

Your daughter doesn’t hve boiling benzene in her veins right? I didn’t think so. But even though the Geiers are so out in left field about their “testosterone sheets” you will expose your daughter to Lupron at their direction. You never worry about making your daughter a guinea pig for quacks, do you?

I bet Buttar could help you to understand the great benefits of urine injections. You could do an interview of him on video for us, ok?
HN
April 24th, 2006
05:09:56

Kassiane said “â€œIâ€™m not associatedâ€ sounds like CYA to me. Though you might want to avoid the need for your A to be Câ€™d by not practicing medicine without a license.”

Exactly… Andrew Cutler, Proffessional Engineer... the blood of Abubakar Tariq Nadama is on your hands.

Do not try to deny it.

Promoting any kind of mercury poisoning with a cure of “chelating” that is counter to reality is what makes you a party to murder…
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/previe.....5508a3.htm

It is the “little bit of knowledge is dangerous” spin that you use without the full understanding of biochemistry that leads you into getting people to pump various chemicals into themselves. You may be sincere, but you are very much out of the bounds of your training. Whatever “research” you do has been filtered through your own prejudices:
http://www.ssr.com/cgi-bin/ezm.....dpophfocgp

Deal with it… all the blood from chelation disasters are on your hands.
Kev
April 24th, 2006
06:22:42

“My daughter was tested with enough testosterone to put a boy her age into early puberty. but of course, since sheâ€™s autistic, the lot of you want to ignore all that as a celebration of neuro-diversity!”

Not at all Erik. Its my belief that you’re either too stupid to see past someone scamming you or you’re lying.

You told me once that chelation should ‘cure’ a child within 18 months. Now you seem to be admitting chelation hasn’t cured your child as you need a chemical castration agent to speed the process along.

When this new porcesses fails to make your daughter indistinguishable from her peers whats next for her? Inject her with her own piss? Will you be videoing that?
Jonathan Semetko
April 24th, 2006
13:15:40

â€œMy daughter was tested with enough testosterone to put a boy her age into early puberty. but of course, since sheâ€™s autistic, the lot of you want to ignore all that as a celebration of neuro-diversity!â€

(head hits desk) That is not what we are saying Erik, that is not what we are saying at all.
bonni
April 24th, 2006
15:17:47

Its my belief that youâ€™re either too stupid to see past someone scamming you or youâ€™re lying.

I think there’s another possibility. I think that it’s possible for people to WANT to believe something so much that they actually convince themselves that it’s true.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 24th, 2006
16:28:47

Jonathan: “(head hits desk) That is not what we are saying Erik, that is not what we are saying at all.”

Don’t bang your head on your desk, mate… it doesn’t teach Erik anything and all you get is a bigger headache than you had just talking to the wazzock.

Best bet is just to not bother with him: he’s sold himself (actually, he’s bought himself) into this huge sack of shite and he’s too weak in ego to get himself out. He’s the psychosocial equivalent of the guy who couldn’t fart his way out of a wet paper bag.

Now go out and buy some painkillers… ;)
anonimouse
April 24th, 2006
17:34:48

Erik,

Is having an autistic child so bad that you would subject her to all sorts of unpleasant (if not dangerous) medical treatments on the off-chance one of those might work? Even though there’s little scientific proof to that effect?

I’m all for parental choice in medical matters relating to their children, and I’m sure as heck not going to make a judgement on whether autism is a “curable” disease. But wouldn’t a little bit of evidence that chelation (or Lupron or urine) is an effective treatment be in order?
Ms Clark
April 24th, 2006
21:13:19

HN wrote: “Exactlyâ€¦ Andrew Cutler, Proffessional Engineer… the blood of Abubakar Tariq Nadama is on your hands.”

Exactly.

If any child is in any way harmed by Lupron after his parents see the Geier video on Erik’s website then that suffering goes on Erik’s head. Erik believes in a karma kind of religion. Time to get your palm read again, Erik? You’re racking up some major negativity to your bad vibe account. If an autistic child dies of Lupron related poisoning it’s on your head. You’ve been told that there are no “sheets of testosterone” but you leave the Geier video on your website to entrap other parents.

The Geiers have used this chemotherapy /chemical castrator on about 30 kids right? How many of them have had really great results? Lisa Sykes son? Are the Geiers only doing it on kids with “high testosterone”? If so why isn’t the idea working on all of them? Your daughter had a back slide which you attributed to her going off the Lupron for a few days. That’s really weird. Why wouldn’t her brain hold on to what she had learned? Will she need to remain on Lupron for the rest of her life? She can’t avoid mercury in the environment. You’ve been pulling mercury from her for a couple years and it hasn’t done much good. There’s no way that pulling mercury improved her eyesight.

My child’s eyesight went from really bad to not needing glasses over a period of years, it’s just what xyr eyes did from 4 years old onward. They got better on their own. And my child wasn’t chelated.
Orac
April 24th, 2006
21:19:09

â€œMy daughter was tested with enough testosterone to put a boy her age into early puberty. but of course, since sheâ€™s autistic, the lot of you want to ignore all that as a celebration of neuro-diversity!â€

(head hits desk) That is not what we are saying Erik, that is not what we are saying at all.

Indeed. That’s a straw man argument as inane as any that I would expect of Fore Sam.
ebohlman
April 25th, 2006
00:47:38

Erik N: My daughter was tested with enough testosterone to put a boy her age into early puberty.

Was that testing done by a pediatric endocrinologist? If not, did you then take her to see one? If so, what did he/she have to say? If not, WHY not? What lab did the tests? It sounds to me like your daughter has a serious endocrine problem (possibly involving the adrenals). Is this another case of “the kid is autistic, so everything wrong with the kid is an aspect of the autism”?

IIRC, testosterone synthesis in females isn’t even mediated by GnRH, so Lupron should have no effect on a girl’s testosterone levels. It’ll just lower her estrogen.
Ms Clark
April 25th, 2006
01:24:17

http://www.geocities.com/lupro.....fects.html

Top 40 Adverse Effects Reported To The FDA For Women in Rank Order

The following information comes from a March 24, 1999 review of Lupron by the FDA.

*The FDA stated:
“However, it is interesting that even with these differences, the nature of reported adverse events for males and females is quite similar- indicating that the events are more likely to be due to the drug than age, gender or underlying disorder.”*

1. vasodilation – dilation of blood vessels
2. dermatitis
3. headache
4. paresthesia – sensation of burning, tingling
5. dizziness
6. pruritus – itching
7. urticaria – hives
8. arthralgia – severe joint pain, not inflammatory in character
9. alopecia/[Hair Loss]
10. condition aggravated
11. injection site hypersensitivity
12. dyspnea – difficulty breathing
13. hypertension – high arterial blood pressure
14. injection site abscess
15. injection site pain
16. vomiting
17. chest pain
18. injection site reaction
19. asthenia – weakness; [asthenia gravis hypophyseogenea – severe weakness due to loss of pituitary function.]
20. pain
21. nausea
22. PURGED
23. pyrexia
24. weight increase
25. depression
26. peripheral edema
27. abdominal pain
28. ecchymosis – a purplish patch caused by blood leaking into the skin
29. Amnesia – disturbance in memory
30. myalgia – muscular pain
31. tachycardia – rapid beating of the heart
32. amblyopia – dimness of vision
33. syncope – fainting
34. menometrorrhagia
35. palpitations – forcible pulsation of the heart
36. bone pain
37. Edema [swelling]
38. Insomnia – inability to sleep
39. hepatic function abnomality
40. migraine——

*Erik N.,
How will your daughter tell you if she is experiencing paresthesias or bone pain?*

I wish you would stop this madness before your little girl gets hurt.
bonni
April 25th, 2006
04:13:47

I also have to wonder what the long term results of using a drug like Lupron on a child are. I’m sure there are NO studies of this, as no one (until now) has been crazy enough to give the stuff to a child.

What if it does serious liver damage? Or brain damage? Or some other sort of systemic damage that can’t be undone?
Concerned mother
April 26th, 2006
09:04:26

Our child is so badly affected by the mercury she gets taller in warm weather.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 26th, 2006
09:05:16

CM: “Our child is so badly affected by the mercury she gets taller in warm weather.”

Naughty! LoL
clone3g
April 26th, 2006
13:58:56

Our child is so badly affected by the mercury she gets taller in warm weather.

I’ve seen a child grow far in height but not to that degree.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 26th, 2006
15:54:47

clone3g: “far in height ”

OMG! Not you too! I’d try one with a homophone for celsius in it but it’d upset JBJr by not being a straightophone!
Bartholomew Cubbins
April 26th, 2006
16:08:03

don’t really bad puns automatically Godwin a thread?

oh well, here goes…

Don’t worry about your child’s rankine on the growth chart, rather, the more appropriate metric is that of Dr. Sell C. Uhs.
clone3g
April 26th, 2006
16:31:07

Well Kelvin, this thread is fast approaching absolute zero even as the aromatic vapor pressure rises.

Let’s C F we can lower the scent a grade, K?
Dad Of Cameron
April 26th, 2006
17:20:03

This thread will not be moved. Not until every last trace amount of pun is removed. We have no way of knowing how much pun is still out there, sure levels of pun are down since 2001, but that does not explain away the possible synergistic effect of all the other humor that has been snuck in and added to the adulthood schedule.
andrea
April 26th, 2006
22:18:33

The jokesters should be punished.

andrea
Ms Clark
April 26th, 2006
23:56:35

That growth spurt, concerned mother, is a sign of central precocious puberty. Dip the child in Lupron and place heavy college chemistry books on her head to stop the growth.

Erik reported on a board recently that the Geier protocol involves a Lupron Depot™ shot once every 28 days and then daily shots of another form of lupron.

What’s wrong with these people? Do they just have a strong desire to inject things into their children?
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 27th, 2006
01:14:50

MsC: “Dip the child in Lupron and place heavy college chemistry books on her head to stop the growth.”

Exactly their approach… let’s compound the variables…. that way. nobody’ll spot the fuck-up….

But we would, right?:)
Injectionator
April 27th, 2006
02:59:40

Ms. Clark,

Injection phun
Injecting Sense
Injecting Cents (including copper/pennies, nickel etc)
Injecting Scents (name your fav stinky chelator)
Injecting Conscience – oooooh! me likes.
Kassiane
April 27th, 2006
06:07:19

Ms Clark,
My keyboard will thank you to put warnings on such things. It doesn’t like water as much as I do.

Perhaps an autistic entering puberty at ALL is too early, since we don’t grow up and stuff. Hence unprecidented amounts of Lupron.

This, of course, must be why I’m 23 and built like a prepubescent boy.

I’d imagine the chemistry textbooks would be best for
a) improving posture
b) teaching the Geier’s the errors of their ways
c) using cranial concussive therapy on the aforementioned
Ruth
April 27th, 2006
19:39:22

I don’t think Lupron will keep them short-the package insert says it keeps the epiphyseal plates active. In real precocious puberty this is good, as bone age as well as sexual maturation is ahead of chronological age. Did the Geiers check bone age before giving Lupron? Why do I think I know the answer?
greensmile
April 28th, 2006
00:05:37

A sky darkened with flocks of ducks could not produce so much quackery.

Same question for you as I had at seconsight: where do you find these nutcases?
Kevin Champagne
April 28th, 2006
04:52:11

What would mainsteam medicine prescribe for a child with conjunctivitis and an ear infection?
Dad Of Cameron
April 28th, 2006
05:57:06

KC, mainstream medicine should prescribe that you consult with an appropriate licensed practitioner for evaluation and treatment of conjunctivitis and an ear infection.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 28th, 2006
06:25:56

KC: “What would mainsteam medicine prescribe for a child with conjunctivitis and an ear infection?”

A medical practitioner would examine the child, and make a prescription based on that examination. In this case, the treatment would probably include antibiotics but, as DoC above said… for the actual prescription, you would have to see a licenced medical practitioner.

Such a practitioner would definitely not suggest a course of chelation therapy.
Kevin Champagne
April 28th, 2006
06:35:14

Lets say I did consult with a “licensed practitioner” for evaluation, ...what would he or she prescibe for treatment of conjunctivitis and an ear infection?
Kev
April 28th, 2006
12:36:11

conjunctivitis .

Ear infection.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 28th, 2006
17:52:13

KC: “what would he or she prescibe for treatment of conjunctivitis and an ear infection?”

People have told you. Why do you keep asking? What’s your issue here? Something you’re failing to understand?
Kev
April 28th, 2006
18:28:26

Greensmile – comes with the territory ;o)
Kevin Champagne
April 28th, 2006
19:39:16

Most conventional doctors would prescribe antibiotics for conjunctivitis and an ear infection. My daughter and son have had this a couple of times. This time we used Noni (Morinda citrifolia) and Samento (Uncaria Tomentosa) from Dr. Buttar. The conjunctivitis and the ear infection were gone in about 24 hours and without the side effects of antibiotics.

I have never heard of this urine injection for alergies but I see that someone on the chelatingkids2 chat said that it works and after doing a few internet searches I see there are others that swear by it.

If this is even true, that Dr. Buttar prescribes these urine injections, then whats the problem? Many of you accuse these doctors of being out to just make a buck but it doesn’t sound like there’s much money to be made on this procedure.

Dr. Buttar should not even have been included in this thread about the Cutler Hawking project. I think this was done to get blog traffic by using 3 big names – Rashid Buttar, Stephen Hawking And JB Handley
clone3g
April 28th, 2006
19:46:13

Herbal hepatotoxicity: acute hepatitis caused by a Noni preparation (Morinda citrifolia).

Millonig G, Stadlmann S, Vogel W.

aClinical Division of Gastroenterology and Hepatology bDepartment of Pathology, Medical University of Innsbruck, Austria.

A 45-year-old patient was sent to our department because of highly elevated transaminases and elevated lactate dehydrogenase. His medical history was unremarkable and he took no medication on regular basis. Physical examination did not detect any abnormalities. There was no evidence for viral hepatitis, Epstein-Barr virus or cytomegalovirus, autoimmune hepatitis, Budd-Chiari syndrome, haemochromatosis or Wilson’s disease. During the interview he admitted that for ‘prophylactic reasons’ he had been drinking the juice of Noni (Morinda citrifolia), a Polynesian herbal remedy made from a tropical fruit, during the preceding 3 weeks. This gave rise to the suspicion of herbal toxicity, which was confirmed by a liver biopsy. After ceasing the ingestion of Noni, transaminase levels normalized quickly and were within normal ranges 1 month after the first presentation. To our knowledge, this is the first report of hepatotoxicity caused by this herbal remedy, which has been highly praised in the tabloid press.
clone3g
April 28th, 2006
19:49:38

Comment in:
Pediatr Blood Cancer. 2006 Jan;46(1):8-10.

Alternative medicine remedies might stimulate viability of leukemic cells.

Styczynski J, Wysocki M.

Department of Pediatric Hematology and Oncology, Collegium Medicum of Bydgoszcz, Nicolaus Copernicus University of Torun, Bydgoszcz, Poland. jstyczynski@cm.umk.pl

OBJECTIVE: Ex vivo activity of three products of alternative therapy against leukemic and normal cells was analyzed. MATERIAL AND METHODS: Extracts of Viscum album, Uncaria tomentosa, and Croton lechleri were used for the study. Leukemic cells of 53 children with acute leukemias and four cell lines, Jurkat, CCRF-CEM, HL-60, and K-562 were tested for sensitivity to alternative medicine remedies by the MTT assay, cell-cycle analysis and annexin-V binding assay. RESULTS: Leukemic cells showed high resistance to tested three compounds of alternative medicine in all performed assays. Additionally, tested remedies stimulated survival of leukemic cells in 45%, 96%, and 83% cases, respectively; while no effect was observed in normal lymphocytes. In combination studies, Viscum album extract did not increase prednisolone and cytarabine cytotoxicity in leukemic cells. CONCLUSION: We conclude that some alternative medicine remedies might stimulate the viability of childhood leukemic cells.
Kevin Champagne
April 28th, 2006
20:49:31

Do I need to point out the harmful effects of antibiotics now? How about vaccine injuries?

Clone, your first study seems to be about a 45 year old male that was guzzling Noni juice. Anything in excess can hurt you. The dose we used was only 15 drops given 4 times a day. Your second study shows that Alternative medicine remedies might stimulate viability of leukemic cells. Key word “MIGHT”. You believe that but you don’t believe mercury might cause autism.

“Mercury has been found to accumulate in vital organs and tissues, such as the liver, brain, and heart muscle. Major symptoms of mercury toxicity include Emotional Instability, tremors, gingivitis, and kidney failure. Some also believe mercury may be linked to multiple sclerosis and epileptic seizures. Further, its affect on the body’s immune system is potentially devastating, possibly contributing to diseases such as leukemia and hematopoietic dycrasias.”
Kevin Champagne
April 28th, 2006
20:53:16

“To our knowledge, this is the first report of hepatotoxicity caused by this herbal remedy, which has been highly praised in the tabloid press.”

Do you think that maybe they had an axe to grind?
anonimouse
April 28th, 2006
20:58:12

Most conventional doctors would prescribe antibiotics for conjunctivitis and an ear infection. My daughter and son have had this a couple of times. This time we used Noni (Morinda citrifolia) and Samento (Uncaria Tomentosa) from Dr. Buttar. The conjunctivitis and the ear infection were gone in about 24 hours and without the side effects of antibiotics.

If you’d actually read Kevin’s links, you’d notice that most ear infections and conjunctivitis go away on their own. I’d like to see some actual evidence that those treatments work (and not just your lame anecdotes) before running out to my local quack, er alt-med doctor.

If this is even true, that Dr. Buttar prescribes these urine injections, then whats the problem? Many of you accuse these doctors of being out to just make a buck but it doesnâ€™t sound like thereâ€™s much money to be made on this procedure.

Nah, R. Buttar just makes his money off his $800 office visits.
clone3g
April 28th, 2006
21:13:27

KC: Do I need to point out the harmful effects of antibiotics now? How about vaccine injuries?

Nope. The risks and side effects are well studied and established. Nobody knows what the hell is going on with herbal supplements, if they contain any of the active alkaloids or if they have way too much, whether they are from the same species or even the from the right plant. But hey, go ahead and whine about the lack of safety trials for pharmaceuticals and promote the use of magic potions dispensed by your Shaman. Chant too if that helps you.

Alternative medicine remedies might stimulate viability of leukemic cells. Key word â€œMIGHTâ€.

I didn’t say I belive it or not. It might or it might not. You and Buttar have no way of knowing but I guess the unknown only concerns you when it involves your favorite toxin.

You believe that but you donâ€™t believe mercury might cause autism.

It’s not about belief. I don’t believe either because there isn’t enough evidence to support either.

You highlighted the wrong section in your mercury causes everything paragraph.

Some also believe mercury may be linked to multiple sclerosis and epileptic seizures. Further, its affect on the bodyâ€™s immune system is potentially devastating, possibly contributing to diseases such as leukemia and hematopoietic dycrasias.â€

I provided an abstract from an experiment that showed a clear enhancement on the survival and stimulation of leukemic cells which is a lot more than the stab in the dark passage you pasted. Show me a way that mercury, especially tiny amounts that used to be in vaccines, can possibly cause any of those diseases or autism.
Kevin Champagne
April 28th, 2006
21:39:48

” go ahead and whine about the lack of safety trials for pharmaceuticals and promote the use of magic potions dispensed by your Shaman. Chant too if that helps you.”

Ok I will.

“Show me a way that mercury, especially tiny amounts that used to be in vaccines, can possibly cause any of those diseases or autism.”

I can’t show you that mercury causes autism but I can show you what happens to children when you take it out. What about the recovered kids? They removed the heavy metals through chelation and the children recovered. The number of kids recovering increases daily and before you know it, you won’t be able to explain it away. I can’t show you that mercury causes autism but I can show you what happens to children when you take it out.

Why is it that most of the peer reviewed studies on autism, tell us what autism is not?
clone3g
April 28th, 2006
22:34:34

KC: Clone, your first study seems to be about a 45 year old male that was guzzling Noni juice. Anything in excess can hurt you. The dose we used was only 15 drops given 4 times a day.

You heard it here first folks. Kevin Champagne argued that dose makes the toxin.

I canâ€™t show you that mercury causes autism but I can show you what happens to children when you take it out.
Rinse. Repeat
I canâ€™t show you that mercury causes autism but I can show you what happens to children when you take it out.
Rinse. Repeat
I canâ€™t show you that mercury causes autism but I can show you what happens to children when you take it out.
Rinse. Repeat

See, no matter how many times you repeat, it doesn’t make it true.
Kevin Champagne
April 28th, 2006
23:39:00

See, no matter how many times you repeat, it doesnâ€™t make it true.

Right back at ya!
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 28th, 2006
23:41:32

anonimouse: “If youâ€™d actually read Kevinâ€™s links, youâ€™d notice that most ear infections and conjunctivitis go away on their own.”

This is why I wasn’t going to say much on prescription… not just because I’m a psychologist (even with a serious amount of health psychology training) rather than a medical practitioner, but also because of the self-limiting nature of most common ailments.

Best treatment for a cold…. stay of work, drink lots of fluids to prevent dehydration and let the cold work out on its own. If not gone after a week, then that would be time to see a medic.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 28th, 2006
23:45:25

KC: “Why is it that most of the peer reviewed studies on autism, tell us what autism is not?”

Got a statistic for that? Otherwise, you’re just plucking number s out of the air. Nay… not even numbers…. mere proportions! That is a sad tactic.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 28th, 2006
23:50:38

clone3g: “Show me a way that mercury, especially tiny amounts that used to be in vaccines, can possibly cause any of those diseases or autism.”

We’ve been asking KC and his pals to do that since the start of this blog (Kev L can correct me if I’m wrong!).... they have yet to do it.

I gave up holding my breath on this one way back…
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 28th, 2006
23:55:42

KC: “I canâ€™t show you that mercury causes autism but I can show you what happens to children when you take it out. What about the recovered kids? They removed the heavy metals through chelation and the children recovered. The number of kids recovering increases daily and before you know it, you wonâ€™t be able to explain it away. I canâ€™t show you that mercury causes autism but I can show you what happens to children when you take it out.”

Where are they? You haven’t show us even one! Either you’re hiding these kids (cos they’re not exactly recovered as you claim they are) or you’re lying.

Choose one, and then admit to it.
Kevin Champagne
April 29th, 2006
00:57:09

Kids that have recovered – Baxter Berle, Charlie Shortridge, and Joshua Shoemaker and you can see them at Fair Autism Media. There are some on Dr. Buttar’s website. There are several on Dr. Nuebrander’s website. Check out 10 months in the life of Anthony. Several from the fall 2005 DAN conference. Ethan Kurtz video clip.
Kevin Champagne
April 29th, 2006
01:03:33

I just posted a reply to your question,

“Where are they? You havenâ€™t show us even one! Either youâ€™re hiding these kids (cos theyâ€™re not exactly recovered as you claim they are) or youâ€™re lying.”

Because of the amount of links, it must have gone into Kev’s queues box and you’ll have to wait until he clears it.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 29th, 2006
11:35:21

You have before and after videos of these kids? Systematically collected data to show that a cure has taken place above and beyond the development that even to most profoundly autistic child can make?

You expect me to believe you when you have no peer-reviewed science?

Come on…. wasn’t born yesterday. You might have been, but I certainly wasn’t.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 29th, 2006
11:38:20

And, those links…. advertisement sites…. not peer-reviewed medicine…. they don’t wash with me. I’m looking for proper science.
Bartholomew Cubbins
April 29th, 2006
16:18:37

I’ve seen all those videos from start to finish. There are no recovery stories there.

A convincing video would show:
1. a 3 year old child presenting with obvious autisitc traits
2. labs showing some metabolic disorder
3. pics of treatment
4. same child without autistic traits soon after treatment

Showing a 6 year old kid who used to have a label is NOT convincing.

Showing a 2-3 year old kid looking at a book and not answering to his name is NOT convincing. In that video, the “proof of recovery” was the kid wrestling with his father. Then 10 months later he could use some appropriate language. Here’s a news flash – 10 months is a really long time for a 2-3 year old child.

Lastly the stories cover chelation, MeB12 and speech therapy. One mother went so far as to say that mercury deposits in the fatty tissues and destroy’s the ability for the liver to function properly. Her son was described as sickly. Then she chelates and presto, (did she say 3 years later?) his label goes away. There is no presto. Presto would be hard to argue against, but it’s not in these videos.

I have to wonder how many kids lose their labels annually due to natural progression. I wonder how many kids are labeled autistic and then get changed to an aspergers label later in life?

I think it’s also important to note that somewhere there will be kids with metabolic deficiencies. Some will have problems with the biology of B12. Some will have problems with metals. Some child will undoubtedly be mercury or lead poisoned due to some really sad accident. These children will be treated by mainstream docs who aren’t trying to cover anything up, who won’t get a phonecall from the smoking man (Mulder’s real father?), and who won’t radio the black van to follow the family back to their house.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 29th, 2006
16:56:32

Thanks BC….
Kevin Champagne
April 29th, 2006
17:55:25

What about the lab results that show a lot of metals coming out of these kids? What about the high levels of lead, arsenic, cadmium, nickel, tin, and mercury coming out of these kids as they got better? The more that comes out the better they get.

You can shove your peer-reviewed bureaucracy of so-called science! Mainstream science has gone nowhere when comes to autism. They are to busy telling us it’s definately not mercury.

Take the study that came out this week about silver fillings are safe for kids. What other result were they going to come up with? They fillled the mouth of those kids with mercury and half of them were Portuguese orphans and in the end if they showed any signs of adverse health effects in thier study, they would have been liable.

“Preliminary results show that the Casa Pia children, as of March 2002, had 4.22 ug/l of mercury in their urine. University of Washington researchers in 1998 published a peer-reviewed study showing that dentists with 4 ug/l of mercury in their urine had adverse neuropsychological and neurobehavioral effects.”

So much for peer-reviewed. You peer-reviewed folks can’t get your story straight! According to the University of Washington 4 ug/l of mercury was harmful to adult dentists but 4.22 ug/l of mercury is not harmful to little kids?

You should go read “Skeptical of skeptics”.

I’m through here for now, I’m going to go out and enjoy my weekend.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 29th, 2006
19:24:39

KC: “Mainstream science has gone nowhere when comes to autism.”

You’re pathetic. That’s all I can say. You’re a pathetic loser who cannot abide that mainstream science has basically told you that you’re wrong about why your kid is autistic, and that you’re wrong about whether your “treatments” actually work.

Did you notice how Buttar changed from his method of chelation (useless creams!) to a potentially lethal method as soon as one autistic child died? That is because he would rather see an autistic child dead than see an autistic child develop into someone who could turn round and prove him wrong.

He is Ivar Lovaas with a syringe.

And you support Buttar? And you call “mainstream” on anything?

You’re hopeless.

Like I said, KC…. your issue with science is your issue. Not mine.

Keep it that way.
Dad Of Cameron
April 29th, 2006
21:48:26

KC, I read that last night.
A very weak attempt at skepticism. Very well-written and entertaining, but it’s a classic fallacious appeal to Other Ways Of Knowing – pretty vacuous too.

“A chicken can still run with its head cut off, but that doesn’t mean it knows where it’s going.”

A chicken can run with its head intact, but that doesn’t mean it “knows” where it’s going.

Have a good weekend!
Kev
April 29th, 2006
22:03:55

“Skeptical of skeptics”

That was great :o)

My favourite bit:

“This has me pondering an important question: Who does a skeptic think is offering the opinions of skepticism if that same skeptic does not believe in the existence of his own consciousness?.”

Classic :D
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
05:11:32

“Did you notice how Buttar changed from his method of chelation (useless creams!) to a potentially lethal method as soon as one autistic child died? That is because he would rather see an autistic child dead than see an autistic child develop into someone who could turn round and prove him wrong.”

Dr. Buttar didn’t switch from transdermal to IV. Transdermal is still in use and is working great. The IV treatment that Kev commented on awhile back is new a IV treatment that Dr. Buttar uses now, but he has been using IV chelation for years, and getting great results.

Just like your bullshit peer-reviewed bureaucratic science that can’t get it’s story straight, you can’t get over the fact that what killed that boy was an incompetent doctor using the wrong type of chelator. Just let that boy rest already.

Conventional medicine killed 32,591 last year and ran up $9.3 billion in excess charges.

Dr. Maurice Hilleman, a vaccinologist for Eli Lilly said, “Getting vaccine products licensed has nothing to do with science; it’s politics, not science that gets products licensed!”

I notice you didn’t have a comeback for the silver fillings study I mentioned or the amount of mercury that was considered dangerous to adult dentists in 1998 but now according to this study, an even higher amount is not harmful to little kids. Instead, you called me a pathetic loser.

Now I could call you a name and then you’ll fire back with something about a stap-on up my ass, the way you did the last time we got into a heated exchange, but it got deleted by Kev, and then this whole thing can spiral out of control , but I am not going to do that.

Dad of Cameron, thank you for being much more civil by wishing me a good weekend. I wish you the same.
Ms Clark
April 30th, 2006
05:11:52

â€œThis has me pondering an important question: Who does a skeptic think is offering the opinions of skepticism if that same skeptic does not believe in the existence of his own consciousness?.â€

I had no idea that the Pat pat show could link to stuff that deep. Pat pat don’t want you to question the effectiveness of what they are selling, or the truthfulness of what is said in elder Pat’s book. Skeptics make them nervous.

I have never come across one of his “extreme skeptics”:
“By their own definition, then, extreme skeptics are mindless, soulless walking water bags that are no more “alive” than the DNA sequence of a virus.”

He’s creating this class of people to be his “strawmen” that he can knock down. The skeptics I know acknowlege the weaknesses of science. It’s just that people like this Mike Adams person want us all to depend on their personal “other ways of knowing,’ to chuck rational scientific methods and buy what they are selling, just like Pat pat wants us to buy what they are selling… without skepticism, with credulity, with buckets of gullibility.

Just like Buttar doesn’t want anyone questioning his urine injections.
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
06:30:11

“I had no idea that the Pat pat show could link to stuff that deep. Pat pat donâ€™t want you to question the effectiveness of what they are selling, or the truthfulness of what is said in elder Patâ€™s book. Skeptics make them nervous.”

So-called Pat pat made you look pretty foolish last fall when they busted you for your multiple pseudonyms like “alf alpha moo”. You made yourself look foolish when you made a lot of assumptions about my son.

Pat Jr. said ““you are unreliable. You are deceptive. I don’t know what to believe and what not to believe about you. And honestly, that’s how I felt before Anonymous’ latest posts about WS, etc.”

“There’s just way too much smoke around you for there to NOT be fire.”

You wouldn’t be lashing out at them for exposing you for the deceptive person that you are, would you?

“Just like Buttar doesnâ€™t want anyone questioning his urine injections.”

He doesn’t? When did Dr. Buttar say that? If the urine injection story is even true?
Dad Of Cameron
April 30th, 2006
07:03:31

KC, you brought up a valid point by questioning the dental studies. Be skeptical, it’s good for you.

“University of Washington researchers in 1998 published a peer-reviewed study showing that dentists with 4 ug/l of mercury in their urine had adverse neuropsychological and neurobehavioral effects.â€

I just read that study. It’s a little different than your quote.

“Hg exposures in this study are relevant to both groups, since they were assessed in a dental population but extend over a continuum of urinary Hg levels from 0 to 4 mg/l, comparable to the low exposure levels observed in the general U.S. population. General population levels provided by Dr. P. Factor (personal communication) and Dr. A. Kingman (2) range respectively from 1.3 to 18 mg/l (mean 9 mg/l creatinine corrected) and from 0 to 34 (mean 3.1 mg/ l). Thus, this study addresses public health concerns for Hgo toxicity of dental amalgams.”

Yes they studied dental professionals with a maximum of 4, many were less.

In conclusion, by using an approach that distinguishes recent Hg exposure from Hg body burden, we have observed subtle associations between Hg and symptoms, mood, motor function, and nonspecific cognitive alterations in task performance in an occupationally exposed group with HgU levels comparable to the general U.S. population. Application of this approach may be particularly useful in defining thresholds of Hgo toxicity and for establishing safe limits of exposure to mercury from dental amalgam material, the restoration itself, diet, and other sources.

They did not conclude that it was unsafe. In fact they measured something (with special calculations) that they called “preclinical effets” which were not detectably measureable as a “clinical deficits”, and they measured after chelation with DMPS (which may have impacted other metals). Their conclusion is that measurement after chelation may be a valuable measuring tool to determine actual toxicity – but that no toxic threshold was established.

Additionally they cite the importance of the uncompleted (at the time) studies.

With all the interest in chelation by so many parents, It would have been nice if the field of toxicology would have worked on getting the measuring methods and toxicology reference levels for after-chelation standardized and supported by normative studies. That can be done, but until then, it’s speculation.
Ms Clark
April 30th, 2006
07:08:26

Don’t be silly, Kevin.

When I posted as “Alf alpha moo,” I was on a UCD (student accessible) computer. I knew that the Pat pat show blog’s visitor record would show that a student from UCD had posted whatever “Alf alpha moo” wrote.

‘Alfalfa moo” (notice the similarity to Alf alpha moo) was what I remembered as being part of the UCD “fight song” which goes like this:
Bossy cow! cow!
Honey Bee! Bee!
Oleo Marg-arine
Oleo butter-in’
Alfalfa! Hay!

http://daviswiki.org/Bossie_Cow_Cow

See that page for the reason behind the fight song…doesn’t make much sense, invokes Berkeley.

So posting as “alf alpha moo” was a joke and a way of outing myself, it’s just that you all are too unschooled in Davis-ology to have caught it as easily as I thought you would….

Pat pat is out to sell his quasi-religious vitamin pills and pro-chelation view of the world (Jesus wants him to be rich, if I remember the schpiel). I would not want his approval for anything in the world.

What does Pat pat think of the urine injections? What do you think of them Kevin Champagne? I’d love to see Pat pat get urine injections and report on the effect on their health, you too, Kevin. It could be like, scientific and everything.
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
07:30:04

“When I posted as â€œAlf alpha moo,â€ I was on a UCD (student accessible) computer. I knew that the Pat pat show blogâ€™s visitor record would show that a student from UCD had posted whatever â€œAlf alpha mooâ€ wrote.”

“So posting as â€œalf alpha mooâ€ was a joke and a way of outing myself, itâ€™s just that you all are too unschooled in Davis-ology to have caught it as easily as I thought you wouldâ€¦.”

You have got to be kidding me? Do you hear yourself?

“How about the impact of the boy no longer being drug off to day care and left – if that was the situation before – though that wasn’t mentioned.—-”

And don’t forget the response from my wife,

“And what an insult to all those people who aren’t as fortunate and have to work and have their children in day care. Not only do these parents have a child with autism, which is devastating enough, but then people like you judge them because they have their kids in daycare, maybe they have no other option, you’re ignorant!”

“What does Pat pat think of the urine injections?”

I don’t know, and as I have said before, I don’t know if the urine injections story is true and I ask you again, where did you see Dr. Buttar comment on this? I would not put it past you, to be the person that started this on the chelatingkids2 chat under another one of your pseudonyms. You see, that’s the problem with you using all those fake names. It really affects the credibility of your camp. Especially if you created a fake parent on the chelatingkids2 chat.
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
07:39:21

Camllie tried to out herself over the next three days at three different times of the day?

She made three comments on that patsullivan.com posting about Jared.:

September 19, 2005 at 11:09PM
September 21, 2005 at 3:02PM
September 22, 2005 at 1:43PM

Everytime she commented on Pat Sullivan’s site, she was on a USD computer? Even at 11:09PM on 9/19/05?

Can’t trust her!
Ms Clark
April 30th, 2006
07:46:40

Poor Kevin,

Why don’t you ask your friend Buttar if he’s giving urine injections? I don’t have posting privileges to chelatingkids2. I’m not a member. I’ve just seen the posts.

The first time I posted as “alf alpha moo” (it’s hysterical you have the times at your fingertips, I don’t!) I was on the UCD computer. After that I continued to post as Alf alpha moo.

I knew Pat pat was watching his referal log.

There are programs you can get or services you can buy to hide your identity online, if I were sooooo sneaky, why haven’t I ever used one of them. I had outed myself as Autism Diva as soon as I began the blog, I posted in two places with lots of readership that I had begun the blog. David Kirby announced who I was, where I lived and that I had the blog at a antivaxer mercury mom conference, which is on video tape on Erik unfair media Nanstiel’s website… oh you bet, I’m really sneaky.

How about you and your little adventure as

seven seven seven? 777 whatever?
No one knew who you were for a week or so. It took a while but we finally figured out who you were, you were posting from different computers not so far from your home, as I remember.

ooooh, you are just a regular Buttar shill aren’t you??
:-)
Silly.
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
07:55:01

I was 777 for a few weeks, just to get on a blog that I was banned from. I was also GottaGo for a few posts after 777 was found out. I had a reason to use a fake name and I came clean when I was questioned. What was your reason for your multiple fake names? Why do you still do it?

Camille has the luxury of commenting about her autism experience from distant memory, because she doesn’t have a small recently diagnosed child and does not have to deal with the daily challenges of a young autistic child like most of us do.
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
07:56:32

“ooooh, you are just a regular Buttar shill arenâ€™t you??
:-)”

Guilty as charged! Did you just now come to this conclusion?
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
08:01:44

“you were posting from different computers not so far from your home, as I remember.”

Same computer, I just figured out how to change my ip address.
Ms Clark
April 30th, 2006
08:17:43

you posted to my blog as 777 and also here. You had an identity as a truck driver or something didn’t you? My aliases don’t sound like real names or they are really weird real names… like “alf alpha moo” Where Alf could be Alfred.

I use alternate IDs to slow down the harassment that I have received at my home for posting things that anivaxers don’t like.

Are you trying to smear me as a pharmco shill like Pat pat did? Still? How sweet.
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
08:24:32

“Pat pat was trying to smear me as a pharmco shill.”

I know Camille, you’re just a victim.

Pat never, ever, ever, accused you of being a big pharma shill.

Do you remember when you claimed that you had never ever been to my blog?

Liar!
Ms Clark
April 30th, 2006
08:38:09

You are so funny.

:-D People will think I’m posting as you. (by the way, how did you figure out how to change your ISP? sounds downright cunning)

From what I can tell were a total of 5 people who commented on the Buttar urine thing. 4 women and 1 man. No one said, “oooh, ick!” That’s what I would have said. None of them were me. You could go look to see if those people in the thread have real world friends who know who they are. It would be easier if you just ask Buttar if he does these filtered urine injection things, that’s simple.

Pat pat was saying that I was a liar, but I don’t lie. Pat was saying that I was lying, why would I lie about autism?

Now Buttar on the other hand… he has financial reasons to tell people that injecting their kids with urine will cure their allergies.

I personally would never go for that, and I have some pretty bad allergies to pollen and mold.

Good night. :-)
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 30th, 2006
08:49:47

MsC: “Now Buttar on the other handâ€¦ he has financial reasons to tell people that injecting their kids with urine will cure their allergies.”

He has financial reasons for suggesting that “treatment” for anything!
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
09:00:25

You have no comment about me calling you a liar?

That’s ok, your lying is right in line with the CDC, the FDA, and WHO!

“Now Buttar on the other handâ€¦ he has financial reasons to tell people that injecting their kids with urine will cure their allergies.”

You really have a problem with money don’t you? If someone has money or a nice car or a big red pickup, they must be crooked!

I have a big black pickup and I apologize for having money. Does that make you feel better?

Just to set the record straight, I wasn’t sitting home on my ass typing away on this computer one day and all of a sudden, a brick of money fell out of the sky and hit me in the head. No, that’s not what happened, I earned my money.
Kevin Champagne
April 30th, 2006
09:03:32

David, it doesn’t sound like there is much money to be made by telling people to inject themselves with there own urine.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 30th, 2006
10:04:45

KC: “David, it doesnâ€™t sound like there is much money to be made by telling people to inject themselves with there own urine.”

Why else is Buttar doing it? It’s certain not (to my knowledge) an established medical treatment for anything!
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 30th, 2006
10:06:32

Did I just see a comment from some fascist dickhead in Norway disappear?

The Age of Miracles is upon us!
bonni
April 30th, 2006
11:07:33

Thatâ€™s ok, your lying is right in line with the CDC, the FDA, and WHO!

Wow. Paranoid much?
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 30th, 2006
11:55:18

bonni: “Wow. Paranoid much?”

I’d say a hell of a lot, actually.

I just wish he’d leave Pete and Roger out of it… ;)
bonni
April 30th, 2006
12:00:13

The thing is, governmental agencies can barely get coordinated enough to exchange documentation. I can’t imagine how the hell they’d manage to organize a worldwide international conspiracy.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 30th, 2006
12:18:24

Yeh….

KC’s a bit paranoid. His problem, not ours.
Sue M.
April 30th, 2006
18:21:18

Bonni wrote:

” I canâ€™t imagine how the hell theyâ€™d manage to organize a worldwide international conspiracy”.

– Right. Exactly. That’s the reason why we will win and you will lose. It’s quite clear that there have been failures throughout this entire autism/thimerosal debacle. No one can argue against that. It’s a matter of putting the pieces together. Now, in the end, that may amount to simply a bad job of trying to cover the asses of people who made some bad decisions along the way or whatever OR it could mean that thousands of children were injured by childhood vaccinations. Which is it? That’s the question that needs to be addressed in my opinion.

I know that the website http://www.putchildrenfirst.org has been mentioned here before and I know your feelings on JB but it really is interesting to read all the e-mails from people in power back in the late 1990’s- early 2000’s. Wow. Incompetence. That’s all that can be said. To watch the Deputy Director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (National Immunization Program) Diane Simpson misspell thimerosal on a few occassions is frightening (she was spelling it thimerosol). I know the spelling thing again… but it shows ignorance and how the topic is brand new to her yet she is “heading” the group who is supposed to be looking into the issue. What? I acknowledge that it is a tricky word, but come on? Now, does that prove anything about thimerosal triggering autism? No, but it sure as hell proves ignorance and the fact that people were in way over their heads. Check out the website. Seriously.
Kev
April 30th, 2006
18:37:30

I’ll get to the rest of your points shortly Sue but first you might want to note that ‘thimerosol’ is a legitimate spelling of thiomersal/thimerosal:

Why even people such as Dr Mercola and Dan Burton use it!

Tell me you knew that Sue or i guess we’ll just have to assume massive ignorance.
Sue M.
April 30th, 2006
18:53:14

I see that Kev missed me… What do you think the chances are that Diane Simpson knew that she was using the “alternative” spelling of thimerosal? Ha ha. Not a chance in hell, Kev. She was ignorant. She shows her ignorance in many other ways… Did you read ALL the e-mails on the website referenced above? It’s a trip. Really. She was in way over her head. It is quite obvious. Are you going to argue with me about that?
Kev
April 30th, 2006
19:03:18

Oh I see – so when someone from the evil CDC/FDA/Blah blah uses a correct spelling of a word its down to ignorance. But when you tell everybody that the correct spelling of a word is not correct then its not?

I guess there’s some logic in there somewhere Sue. Or possibly not.

And as I said Sue, I’ll get back to you on your other points. I just wanted to point out your stupider mistakes first.
Sue M.
April 30th, 2006
19:31:52

Kev wrote:

“Oh I see â€“ so when someone from the evil CDC/FDA/Blah blah uses a correct spelling of a word its down to ignorance. But when you tell everybody that the correct spelling of a word is not correct then its not”?

– Oh, ok, Kev. You got me. Diane Simpson knew that she was using the “alternative” spelling of thimerosal. She was just trying to show her superior knowledge of the subject to those fools that she was e-mailing. It was a brilliant move on her part. She sure fooled me.
Now, back to reality. Read all the e-mails in Chapter 4 on the website above. It is hilarious (in a sick sort of way). The ignorance is overwhelming. Take a special look at the e-mail that she sent to Dr. Marta Granstrom. Read Dr. Granstrom’s response back to Dr. Simpson. Classic. Note, the reference to the spelling issue (do you think that Dr. Granstrom thought that Diane Simpson was using her superior knowledge to show her ability to use both thimerosal and thimerosol interchangeably). Hardly. She even spells out that thiomersal is the European equivalent to thimerosol/thimerosal as not to confuse poor Dr. Simpson. It’s all in the spelling…. just kidding about that… It is all about the ignorance and being in way over your head… Sadly. Just read all the information which the site gives you (I know it will be painful for you to sink so low, but just do it).
Sue M.
April 30th, 2006
20:09:59

Kev,

Clearly you have decided against visiting the website. Here’s a hint: you should. Unless you are a fool it will help you to understand that Dr. Simpson was in way over her head. It’s not just about the spelling errors, Kev. I hope that you understand that. I’m sure that you’ll harp on that and how I got it all wrong (hardly)... but it’s beyond that. It is about the ignorance and the absurdity of the situation. Again, not proving that thimerosal/thimerosol/thiomersal/thiomersol causes autism but proving that the powers to be didn’t have a clue. Why won’t you read the information, Kev? Why? Why won’t you read Dr. Marta Granstrom’s e-mail back to Diane Simpson? You would have more credibility with me if you read them and then tried to show me how they don’t prove ignorance or being in way over your head? Your lack of desire to look into the matter says a lot.
Sue M.
April 30th, 2006
20:22:08

Oh boy, I made an error in my discussion about Dr. Marta Granstrom and Dr. Simpson’s communications. Kev, it will due you good to go the e-mails in question to figure out where I made my mistake. Can you find it?
clone3g
April 30th, 2006
20:30:35

Sue M. Unless you are a fool it will help you to understand that Dr. Simpson was in way over her head.

Sue, I don’t know who Dr. Simpson is and I don’t care. She may be the biggest fool on the planet for all I know—How does that make it any more likely that thimerasshole causes autism?

Hey, while we are on the subject, you never answered my earlier question. How might thimerosal cause autoimmune diabetes?
Dad Of Cameron
April 30th, 2006
20:37:51

Itâ€™s quite clear that there have been failures throughout this entire autism/thimerosal debacle. No one can argue against that.

Except to point out that you might be begging the question. There is no scientific proof that Thimerosal (ethylmercury) causes autism, and there is no scientfic proof that autistics have higher levels of mercury. There aren’t even any agreed upon standard scientific methodologies (or supporting normative studies) for determining mercury burden/toxicty in autistic children.

This would be more accurately described as a “Thimerosal debacle”. Bringing autism into it without proof is an assertion, unless you’re not referring to the scientific facts, in which case it could be accurately described as the “autism/Thimerosal conspiracy debacle”.
Kev
April 30th, 2006
21:49:25

“Clearly you have decided against visiting the website. “

I read it the day it was announced.

“Unless you are a fool it will help you to understand that Dr. Simpson was in way over her head.”

Why? Because she didn’t misspell something you thought she had? What other fascinating bits of evidence do you have?

“It is about the ignorance and the absurdity of the situation.”

No argument there. Look at yourself Sue. You start frothing at the mouth about how scary it is that Dr Simpson doesn’t even know how to spell thimerosal and how that indicates how poorly informed she is/was – except it turns out she does know how to spell thimerosol and in fact you are the one who is poorly informed in that matter.

“Why wonâ€™t you read the information, Kev? Why?”

Why, despite my statement that I have, do you insist on saying I haven’t? I really don’t know how else to say it. I understand you have a duty to keep cranking up the old conspiracy theory machine but please, just for once – drop the melodrama and read what people say to you.

“You would have more credibility with me if you read them and then tried to show me how they donâ€™t prove ignorance or being in way over your head?”

Do you seriously imagine I really care about having credibility with an anti-vaccine conspiracy theorist such as yourself? Good God, you think a lot of yourself.

“Your lack of desire to look into the matter says a lot.”

Once again, I’ve looked, I found nothing particularly revalatory. I invite you once again – in your own words – to tell me exactly what you find disturbing and why.

This is just a repeat of ‘the danish studies’ – you’re great at telling everyone that something is bogus but you can never say why. The truth is – JB/SafeMinds/David Kirby said it and that’s good enough for you. Reasons don’t matter, right? Well, come on – here’s your chance, lay it all out for us: In Sue’s own words, she will now give us a point by point run down on whatever it is she finds terrifying (aside from knowing how to spell thimerosol) about something or other. Hope thats not too vague for anyone.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 30th, 2006
22:23:51

SueM: “Thatâ€™s the reason why we will win and you will lose.”

And ultimately, that is all that matters to you…. not what is accurate and scientifically valid, but whether or not you win, and take home a shitload of money isn’t it?

Sad to see greed overtake common sense.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
April 30th, 2006
22:25:28

Kev: “When are you going to start doing your own research Sue?”

I’m betting ‘never’. Much safer to pontificate as she does from a position of ignorance….
clone3g
April 30th, 2006
22:45:46

Ã„thylquecksilberschwefelsalizylat dummkopf
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
00:05:58

Is Thimerasol also an acceptable spelling for thimerosal? There were two brainchildren from the NIP (Robert Chen and Kim Waggoner) who were spelling it like this in June of 2001. Again, it’s not truly about the spelling—it’s the ignorance of the “experts”.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
00:27:22

Clone wrote:

“Sue, I donâ€™t know who Dr. Simpson is and I donâ€™t care. She may be the biggest fool on the planet for all I knowâ€”How does that make it any more likely that thimerasshole causes autism”?

– It does nothing to implicate thimerosal with causing autism. It shows ignorance. I’m quite sure that I made that clear.

Clone wrote:

“Hey, while we are on the subject, you never answered my earlier question. How might thimerosal cause autoimmune diabetes”?

– No, I answered it, you just missed it. I have said before that I don’t know if thimerosal causes type 1 diabetes. I have also said that it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if there was a link… I can’t say much more than that, though.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
00:30:05

Dad wrote:

“This would be more accurately described as a â€œThimerosal debacleâ€.

– Ok, I can work with that… as long as “debacle” gets in there somewhere.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
00:36:09

Kev wrote:

“except it turns out she does know how to spell thimerosol and in fact you are the one who is poorly informed in that matter”.

– You think, Kev. You really think she knew how to spell it? How about Dr. Chen and Kimberly Waggoner? Do you think that they were coming up with spelling of thimerasol to impress their friends? Come on. They didn’t know what the hell they were talking about… It doesn’t make them bad people … it doesn’t make them these evil-doers … it makes them ignorant to the entire situation back in 2001… that’s all.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
00:39:29

Kev wrote:

“In Sueâ€™s own words, she will now give us a point by point run down on whatever it is she finds terrifying (aside from knowing how to spell thimerosol) about something or other. Hope thats not too vague for anyone”.

– Ignorant in 2001. That’s all. Hopefully that is not too vague for anyone.
clone3g
May 1st, 2006
00:42:42

Sad that you are left to argue the preferred spelling over anything resembling science.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
00:49:04

So, it doesn’t strike you as odd that someone who couldn’t spell the word thimerosal in 2001 (don’t let Kev fool you) was suddenly one of the authors of a study saying that there was no correlation between autism and thimerosal in 2003?

http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/media/5.4.pdf

Say what? At least they had someone with a brain proofread their work so that Diane Simpson didn’t have to explain the thimerosol/thimerosal issue. I would guess that only about 1/4 of the population would fall for the “I was using the ‘alternative’ spelling of thimerosal”.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
00:52:03

Clone wrote:

“Sad that you are left to argue the preferred spelling over anything resembling science”.

– Remember Clone, it’s not about the spelling…. How about that “science” that Diane Simpson helped to author in 2003? Bah…
Anne
May 1st, 2006
00:54:46

Okay, I went and read the Simpson/Granstrom e-mails. There is nothing in there about exonerating thimerosal or about autism. If there’s a joke in there somewhere, it went over my head.

Anne
Anne
May 1st, 2006
01:09:10

Sue wrote: “Kev, it will due [sic] you good to go [sic] the e-mails in question to figure out where I made my mistake.”

I don’t get what you’re saying about the e-mails, other than that Simpson was ignorant about the preferred spelling of thimerosal. I don’t understand why Handley says that Simpson’s e-mail was “not well received” by Granstrom. Your point continues to elude me.

Anne
Ruth
May 1st, 2006
01:25:23

If you know chemistry, you know thio means sulfur. Thiomerosal seems a more logical name, maybe not as good for marketing. Just as polycyanide became polyacrylonitrile.
Bartholomew Cubbins
May 1st, 2006
01:29:20

thimerasshole

GR dictionary: you only get poisoned if you get shot in the rear
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
01:38:36

Anne wrote:

“Your point continues to elude me”.

– My point is simple. Grandstrom had more knowledge about thimerosal in his/her left pinky nail than our Acting Deputy Director for the National Immunization Program did in her entire being. Yet somehow this Acting Deputy Director for the National Immunization Program somehow was one of the authors of a paper saying that there was no connection between autism/thimerosal. How does that happen? Personally, I would like to see more of Grandstrom’s opinion.
clone3g
May 1st, 2006
02:50:29

So the point you wanted to make is that a person seems more knowledgeable (to you) because their spellchecker is set to use the same spelling you prefer? In that case, well done Sue.

We’ve also learned – – Your interest in this stems from your belief that thimerosal caused your children to develop celiac and diabetes, not autism, but you have no idea how thimerosal might contribute to one or any of those things.

– When a person has a point of view different from yours, they are ignorant fools.

Quick question Sue, if thimerosal causes celiac, diabetes, and autism, shouldn’t there be a relationship between the three? Is that an ignorant question?
Ms Clark
May 1st, 2006
05:26:00

Goodness, Thiomersal has about 20 legitimate names/variations of spelling. Someone on EoHarm has posted them a couple of times.
These are from pubchem:

thimerosal
Mercurothiolate
Thimerosalate
Thiomersalate
Thimerosol
Thimersalate
Thiomerosal
Thiomersal
Thiomersalat
Merfamin
Merseptyl
Mertorgan
Merzonin
Nosemack
Elicide
Estivin
Merphol
Merzonin sodium
Merthiolate salt
Merthiolate sodium
Sodium merthiolate
Thimerosal solution
Thimerosol solution
Elcide 75
MERTHIOLATE
Merzonin, sodium salt
Ethylmercurithiosalicylate sodium
Sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate
NSC3908
NSC3909
NSC4794
Sodium ethylmercuric thiosalicylate
Sodium o-(ethylmercurithio)benzoate
Sodium 2-(ethylmercurithio)benzoate
Ethylmercurithiosalicylate sodium salt
Ethylmercurithiosalicyclic acid, sodium salt
o-(Ethylmercurithio)benzoic acid sodium salt
[(o-Carboxyphenyl)thio]ethylmercury sodium salt
Sodium salt of 2-(carboxyphenyl)thioethylmercury
Mercury, [(o-carboxyphenyl)thio]ethyl-, sodium salt
Mercury, ethyl(2-mercaptobenzoato-S)-, sodium salt
Mercurate(1-), ethyl[o-mercaptobenzoato(2-)]-, sodium
Mercury, ethyl (hydrogen o-mercaptobenzoato)-, sodium salt
Mercurate (1-), ethyl[2-mercaptobenzoato(2-)-O,S]-, sodium
5396-12-3
54-64-8
5401-59-2
SET

But Sue’s point is that just now, after all these years the smart guys (ambulence chasers along with the tin foil hat brigade) are starting to crack through the Ultra Sneaky Vast International Conspiracy to Thimerosal Injection Manufacturers Shield.

OK, Sue. If you say so.

I must say that little break away did wonders for you.

How about them urine therapy injections? Maybe they cure Celiac, you should check with Buttar on that. He’s a great guy, just ask Kevin Champagne, the truck driver.
Kevin Champagne
May 1st, 2006
05:44:48

“How about them urine therapy injections? Maybe they cure Celiac, you should check with Buttar on that. Heâ€™s a great guy, just ask Kevin Champagne, the truck driver.”

I don’t know.

Maybe Camille Clark the part time apartment cleaner living in subsidized housing knows? She knows everything, just ask her, she’ll tell ya!
Kev
May 1st, 2006
05:45:08

“Is Thimerasol also an acceptable spelling for thimerosal? There were two brainchildren from the NIP (Robert Chen and Kim Waggoner) who were spelling it like this in June of 2001.”

Well, lets see what those ‘branichildren’ at Moms On A Mission For Autism think. Or maybe the ‘experts’ at Progressive Convergence, or maybe a staunch supporter of your beliefs, Senator Patrick Leahy.

“Again, itâ€™s not truly about the spellingâ€”itâ€™s the ignorance of the â€œexpertsâ€.”

Except Sue – you made it about the spelling in your first post to this thread. You tried to illustrate a relationship between a misspelling and someone’s ignorance. Trouble is, that it wasn’t a misspelling.

“Ignorant in 2001”

Your whole evidence base for which is that someone misspelled a word…except they didn’t.

Sue M: ignorant in 2004, 2005, 2006…continue ad nauseum…
Ms Clark
May 1st, 2006
07:11:05

Kevin Champagne,

You are a LIAR! :-)

You really need to quit telling lies, it’s not good for you.

I used to be a part time apartment cleaner. It was a really dirty job, but someone had to do it. Right now my “pay” comes from being a student. But I’m paying myself out of loans that I have to repay, besides what I get from grants (because I got good grades earlier) and a small scholarship.

As of now I have all the credits I need to have graduated a few weeks ago with an AB in psychology from a somewhat prestigious university, well known university and home to the MIND insitute, supposedly a “center for excellence” in autism research. I am now a member of Psi Chi the pychology honor society because my grades in psych classes are high enough to get in there. I think they take the top 1/3 of the psych students, something like that. So, maybe I’m an AB psych (pend) hons? (I have no idea what it would look like in the UK) You can’t get into the psych program at UCD unless you have a certain grade level, because it’s a popular program they make it a little harder to get in.

I’m also working as a research assistant to a psych professor, but that’s unpaid. As much as you’d like to think I’m a paid pharma shill, Kevin, I’m just a poor student. Too poor to afford typical (astronomical) rents here.
Dad Of Cameron
May 1st, 2006
07:21:03

“Personally, I would like to see more of Grandstromâ€™s opinion.”

Sue, It would be so refreshing if just once, you were looking for scientific reality rather than someone’s opinion to believe. I think you might be, somewhere inside, you’re just taking the belief route (which tends to have a lot of wrong turns and heavily pursued dead ends).

I kind of think like Anne at this point. I don’t see the relevance of the e-mails. Government has incompetent people in it just like the private sector (maybe even more so), so what? I’ll try on the tin foil hat for a minute. I’d be looking for someone who really knows their stuff and is evil – someone who can really pull-off and orchestrate an alleged cover-up, because they’re smart enough to cover every angle and pursuade thousands of others to go along with it complicitly. I don’t see that with Simpson.

I agree with you Sue, it is a debacle. Bungled, mishandled, all of that stuff. I don’t see the conspiracy any more than George Bush is a mastermind trying to take over the world. That certainly doesn’t mean it can’t be possible, only lots of proof can demonstrate that.

So she’s listed on the study, so what? Lab assitants are listed on studies (apologies to any published lab assitants). That paper is open to refutation on the data it contains – it doesn’t matter if she’s a typist.
bonni
May 1st, 2006
13:54:11

thimerosal caused your children to develop celiac and diabetes, not autism

Good Lord, is there ANY disease, disorder, syndrome, or condition that is NOT caused by thimerisol?!
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
13:58:56

Neither the list which Kev posted nor Camille’s list show thimerasol as a proper spellling for thimerosal. Can someone please alert Robert Chen and Kim Waggoner that back in 2001 they were ignorant to the thimerosal issue. They should know that….
Kevin Champagne
May 1st, 2006
14:01:45

Camille, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ… I don’t care?
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
14:14:56

Kev wrote:

“Except Sue â€“ you made it about the spelling in your first post to this thread. You tried to illustrate a relationship between a misspelling and someoneâ€™s ignorance. Trouble is, that it wasnâ€™t a misspelling”.

– You are absolutely correct, Kev. I did make it about the spelling because it was fun to do. The spelling errors are the symbol of other issues … ignorance and incompetence.

Let me ask you this question. Bring you back to 2001. The thimeresel/autism “debate” is kicking in… You are deciding whether or not to vaccinate your infant with thimmarosal containing vaccinations or not (your pediatrician only has the thiommeerosal containing DTaP vaccine on hand but the non-thimeroosoll containing vacc won’t be available for 3 months or so). You can call one expert to help you make the decision (you really want to make the right decision) who do you call Diane Simpson or Marta Granstrom?
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
14:24:33

Dad wrote:

“I agree with you Sue, it is a debacle. Bungled, mishandled, all of that stuff. I donâ€™t see the conspiracy any more than George Bush is a mastermind trying to take over the world. That certainly doesnâ€™t mean it canâ€™t be possible, only lots of proof can demonstrate that”.

– I actually think that these particular e-mails show more about ignorance and incompetence than any conspiracy. I had/have a hard time with all the conspiracy stuff. That’s not to say that there wasn’t or still isn’t some of that going on… For the most part though, it’s the ignorance. The acting Deputy Director of the NIP being rather clueless about the thimerosal issue. Ignorant. So she’s one of the top dogs? She’s not even intelligent enough on this issue to be part of a conspiracy…
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
14:32:41

David wrote”

“And ultimately, that is all that matters to youâ€¦. not what is accurate and scientifically valid, but whether or not you win, and take home a shitload of money isnâ€™t it?

Sad to see greed overtake common sense”.

– Not that this is even worthy of my time but…. where will I be getting a shitload of money? I have never nor will I ever bring any sort of lawsuit against anyone in this matter whatsoever. Hopefully that is direct enough for you. That is not to say that I would be against other people doing so… As for you, David, I hear that the “Jailbirds” will be casting soon… do you resemble Paul Offit at all?
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
14:36:07

Bonni wrote:

“thimerosal caused your children to develop celiac and diabetes, not autism”.

– Bonni, unless Clone can show you where I have implicated thimeeroosol as THE cause of any of my children’s conditions, then please understand that these are Clone’s views projected upon me… not my views. You understand that, correct?
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
14:39:08

I hit “say it” too early… I believe that it is entirely POSSIBLE that thimerosal or other vaccine reactions could trigger these issues. For me, it is an ongoing debate… not a done deal either way.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
14:59:17

Dad wrote:

“Sue, It would be so refreshing if just once, you were looking for scientific reality rather than someoneâ€™s opinion to believe. I think you might be, somewhere inside, youâ€™re just taking the belief route (which tends to have a lot of wrong turns and heavily pursued dead ends)”.

– Ok, fair enough. Let me rephrase my point. I would like to see any and all of the “scientific” information that Granstrom may have had which led him/her to try so hard to ban thimerosal from vaccines. Then, I would like to hear Granstrom’s opinion in regards to this scientific information (if applicable). Wouldn’t you if you were the Acting Deputy Director of the National Immunization Program back in 2001? Now, maybe Diane Simpson got this information from Granstrom and found it to be bogus… I would then like to see her scientific information or even her commentary on why she finds Granstrom’s opinion to be wrong. This does not count (due to flawed epidemiology):

http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/media/5.4.pdf
Kev
May 1st, 2006
17:01:37

“Neither the list which Kev posted….show thimerasol as a proper spellling for thimerosal.”

ALL mine do Sue.
“You are absolutely correct, Kev. I did make it about the spelling because it was fun to do. The spelling errors are the symbol of other issues â€¦ ignorance and incompetence.”

Except there were no spelling errors Sue – just plain old assumption and stupidity on your part. Seriously Sue, you’re making yourself looking sillier and sillier.

“You can call one expert to help you make the decision (you really want to make the right decision) who do you call Diane Simpson or Marta Granstrom?”

Neither – I talk to my GP.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 1st, 2006
17:11:17

SueM: “As for you, David, I hear that the â€œJailbirdsâ€ will be casting soonâ€¦ do you resemble Paul Offit at all?”

I resemble me. Nobody else. I’m an individual.

You are, form what we see here, like almost every other mercury-parent in the US…

I must have hit a nerve with what I said to get that sort of response, Sue!

Something ring true?
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
17:24:57

Kev wrote:

“ALL mine do Sue”.

– Really? I would go back and recheck that Kev. Remember, I am now talking about the nitwits Chen/Waggoner who spelled it incorrectly this time. Hopefully you are not confusing them with the other nitwit Diane Simpson who had used the “alternative” spelling of thimerosal. Please advise. Note, I’m sure that these people are good citizens and I use the word nitwit as a term of endearment meaning ignorant and uninformed….

Kev wrote:

” Seriously Sue, youâ€™re making yourself looking sillier and sillier”.

– I may look silly… but sillier and sillier is going overboard considering the above error on your part :)

Kev wrote:

“Neither â€“ I talk to my GP”.

– Oops, wrong answer. You GP probably got his/her info from Diane Simpson or the equivalent to her in the UK. It would have been a better idea to get your information from someone with a clue…
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
17:36:54

David wrote:

“I must have hit a nerve with what I said to get that sort of response, Sue!

Something ring true”?

– I’m not following you… what would be ringing true? As for you, you were suggesting where my shitload of money could come from (which I pointed out is obviously false) ... I was just trying to suggest that you go out for a role in “Jailbirds” ... that could have some pretty good money in it…
Kev
May 1st, 2006
17:50:21

“Really? I would go back and recheck that Kev.”

1) Visit pages.
2) Hold down your ctrl key and tap the ‘f’ key once. This allows you to search all text in the page. Type in ‘thimerasol’ into the search box and hit ‘find next’.
Kev
May 1st, 2006
18:27:50

“I may look sillyâ€¦ but sillier and sillier is going overboard considering the above error on your part :)”

Tell me again about my error Sue. I can’t wait.

“Oops, wrong answer. You GP probably got his/her info from Diane Simpson or the equivalent to her in the UK. It would have been a better idea to get your information from someone with a clueâ€¦ “

It’s not very often I’m at a loss for words Sue but sometimes you manage it. The sheer breadth and depth of your ignorance is stupifying. You join this thread and make yourself look more and more foolish and then have enough self delusion to think that those same ‘skills’ you have at processing written words lead you to the conclusion that – based on a non-existent spelling error – everyone who disagrees with you is inherently incorrect.

I’m genuinely curious Sue – is this wilful self-deception – do you not want to learn? Or is it just down to an inability to think for yourself?
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
18:53:19

Kev wrote:

“1) Visit pages.
2) Hold down your ctrl key and tap the â€˜fâ€™ key once. This allows you to search all text in the page. Type in â€˜thimerasolâ€™ into the search box and hit â€˜find next”.

– Ok, it wasn’t on Camille’s list AND I actually typed it into the list that you originally posted and it wasn’t there either. I actually even went through the annoying process of holding down my control and tapping the ‘f’ key once…. I typed in ‘thimerasol’ and hit find next… still nothing. HOWEVER, I AM COMPUTER ILLITERATE. I’m sure that I did something wrong in the process. So, you are probably correct, Kev. Forgive my mistake. So accepting that fact, that I was incorrect about the multiple “alternative” spellings of thimerosal (thimerosol and thimerasol)... do I for one second believe that any of those nitwits from the CDC just happened to decide to use these “alternative” spellings of thimerosal? Hardly.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
19:08:31

Kev wrote:

“Iâ€™m genuinely curious Sue â€“ is this wilful self-deception â€“ do you not want to learn? Or is it just down to an inability to think for yourself”?

– It seems that you are the one who has an inability to think for yourself. Personally, I thought for myself when my pediatrician told me that I was crazy to try the GF/CF diet on my child. It worked out great. I thought for myself when my husband balked at taking my son to a DAN! doctor for some help. Best money I ever spent. I thought for myself when I questioned my ped about thimerosal being in infant vaccinations… she laughed and smiled at me and told me that I was being silly because of course the Danish studies prove that there is no connection… Sure….

As for wanting to learn… what do you want to teach? I keep waiting for something tangible from you all. I get next to nothing other than people telling me to accept each others differences and how to respect all types… That’s wonderful and I do that every single day. Do you have anything else for me? Possibly some “science”.
Kev
May 1st, 2006
19:10:07

“Ok, it wasnâ€™t on Camilleâ€™s list”

She never claimed it was – she was just pointing out there are lots of alternative spellings. And since when do you use Ms Clarke’s posts to bolster your point?

“So, you are probably correct, Kev.”

No ‘probably’ about it Sue. I and those other people you vilified for ‘misspelling’ thiomersal are correct.

“do I for one second believe that any of those nitwits from the CDC just happened to decide to use these â€œalternativeâ€ spellings of thimerosal? Hardly.”

I’m sure you don’t. As has been pointed out to you numerous times – you’re a believer, not someone interested in the evidence or facts. However, all that is beside the point. You used these ‘misspellings’ as evidence that these people were ignorant. So far what we’ve established is:

a) They weren’t.
b) You are.

So – what else do you want to use to demonstrate their ignorance? Before listing it I’d recommend you do some actual research rather than just parroting JB’s old rubbish.
Kev
May 1st, 2006
19:19:10

“It seems that you are the one who has an inability to think for yourself.”

Yeah, you’ve amply demonstrated your critical thinking abilities on numerous occasions – notably this thread. In order to think for onesself Sue its usually a good idea to be able to read and process information. Based on this thread, do you think you’re good at this Sue?

“I keep waiting for something tangible from you all….Do you have anything else for me? Possibly some â€œscienceâ€.”

As I’ve said to you before Sue – sure – what do you want first? Evidence for a lack of epidemic? Evidence that there’s no causative link between vaccines and autism?

And what’s this insistence on science Sue? You patently don’t understand the science presented to you otherwise you wouldn’t keep citing the ‘flawed’ Danish studies withuot an explanation of why you think they’re flawed, or citing Hornig, Deth, Burbacher and Bernard as supporting the idea that thiomersal causes autism.

A few questions I’d like answers to – your answers. Your opinions:

1) Why are the Danish studies flawed or bogus?
2) How does the Burbacher study support the diea thiomersal causes autism?
3) Ditto Hornig study
4) Ditto Deth study
5) Ditto Bernard ‘study’.

Over to you Sue.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
19:25:49

This is actually getting pretty comical, Kev. When you wrote this:

â€œALL mine do Sueâ€.

Which ALL were you referring to? Show me ALL the lists that you have which show thimerasol as an “alternative” spelling for thimerosal? While your at it show me again step by step exactly how you found it on the original list that you posted… I want to LEARN something from you (remember I am computer illiterate). You can teach me something here.

Kev wrote:

“No â€˜probablyâ€™ about it Sue. I and those other people you vilified for â€˜misspellingâ€™ thiomersal are correct”.

– No, no Kev. I villified them for being ignorant and incompetent in their jobs NOT for their misspellings. I thought that I was clear on that…
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
19:27:16

Kev wrote:

“Evidence that thereâ€™s no causative link between vaccines and autism”?

– Yeah, start there.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 1st, 2006
19:27:23

SueM: ” I thought that I was clear on thatâ€¦ ”

Point is, you’re never clear on anything.

If you were, we’d get it.

Wade is clear, as is DH and as is MarÃa… you never are.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
19:39:10

Kev wrote:

“A few questions Iâ€™d like answers to â€“ your answers. Your opinions:

1) Why are the Danish studies flawed or bogus?
2) How does the Burbacher study support the diea thiomersal causes autism?
3) Ditto Hornig study
4) Ditto Deth study
5) Ditto Bernard â€˜studyâ€™.

Over to you Sue”.

– It’s pretty comical that your first question is in regards to asking me about the Danish studies, Kev. Where were you when I was more than willing to discuss this over on Orac’s blog? It was like a friggin’ morgue over there when Kristjan starting analyzing one of the studies. Where were you? I know that you knew about the thread… where was all of your commentary? As for all the other studies, Kev. As you obviously know, I am NOT a scientist. I can also attest to the fact that none of these studies conclude conclusively that thimerosal plays a any definitive role in the development of autism. They are each pieces of a huge puzzle. A little piece here a little piece there. I believe that in the end, thimerosal will be shown to play a role for some children. For others, it may be the MMR, for others it could be the mother’s ingesting of fish or whatever the case may be.

p.s. since when do you care about my answers and or opinions on anything. Why pretend that you do by asking me to answer in my own words…
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
19:48:00

David wrote:

“Wade is clear, as is DH and as is MarÃaâ€¦ you never are”.

– I’m sure that you are correct on that one. It takes all kinds, remember? Accept me for my differences. I won’t even comment on the differences amongst “your side”.
clone3g
May 1st, 2006
20:19:09

Sue M. on Fair to Medium site:
Thank you so much for this incredible site. I have only just skimmed the surface of what you have to offer and so far—I love it!
I have a 3 1/2 year old son who starting slipping away from us after a flu vaccination in the fall of 2003. He had GI troubles before this and some intolerances to gluten/casein but the flu vaccination (thimerosal containing) put him over the edge. It was a struggle but we are on the road to recovery using the biomedical approach. I can’t believe that there are actually doctors out there who believe that I am the crazy one for using supplements, diet, etc. to help my son. Imagine that, they inject my child with a known neurotoxin (thimerosal) and I am the crazy person for trying everything in my power to heal his body from these attacks. Brilliant.
I would also like to mention that I have a 5 year old daughter who was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at 11 months of age and Celiac disease at 20 months of age (incidentally, 2 months after she received a thimerosal containing flu vaccination). I am on a mission to educate people in the type 1 diabetes community about this issue. It is huge and involves more than just the autism community.
My third child, a boy (16 months), was vaccinated up until 4 months when I finally saw the light. I believe that if we had continued to vaccinate him according to the recommended schedule, he would have been worse off than my older son. What a shame that doctors don’t know about this issue.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 1st, 2006
20:23:59

Kev: “Except Sue â€“ you made it about the spelling in your first post to this thread.”

Sue always does that, and then gets all arsey when her own errors are pointed out. This is a classic sign of her having nothing of any real value to contribute here.

She’ll never change.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
20:58:22

Yes, Clone. I wrote that. Do you find discrepancies with what I have said here as opposed to there? I am happy that you are going through the Autism Media site… maybe you’ll learn something.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
21:06:27

David wrote:

“Sue always does that, and then gets all arsey when her own errors are pointed out”.

– Well, I’m sure that I have done that from time to time. As for my errors on this thread… Kev pointed out that Diane Simpson used an “alternative” spelling of thimerosal. Ok. He was right. I was wrong (sort of). I believe that she was too ignorant to realize that she was using the alternative spelling. As far as I’m concerned, she didn’t know her ass from her elbow and thought that she was spelling it correctly. Kev wants to believe that she was being cute to impress her friends… who’s wrong here? You decide. As for the other spelling issue. Ok. I’m sure Kev is right on that as well. I’ll check out the list(s) that he posts and/or the directions that he sends to find thimerasol on his original list. It’s not that I don’t believe him, it’s just I’m trying to learn something from him.
Kev
May 1st, 2006
21:17:07

“Which ALL were you referring to?”

sigh this is exactly why its an utter waste of time trying to debate you on anything meaningful Sue – you can’t read whats right in front of you. Let me take you through it.

1) You called people who used an alternate spelling of thiomersal ignorant citing their spelling as incorrect.

2) I showed you in 2 examples (Mercola, Dan Burton) that you were wrong.

3) You then tried exactly the same tactic with yet anotehr variation on the spelling of thiomersal. I cited 3 examples (Moms on A Mission, Convergence and Patrick Leahy) to show you as, yet again being wrong.

4) You stated I was wrong in those three examples.

5) I spelled it out to you exactly how to find out for yourself. Proving you wrong once again. These three examples, referring to the second alternate spelling of thiomersal, as stated by you were the ‘all’ I was referring to. Sorry if the English language continues to confuse you.

“While your at it show me again step by step exactly how you found it on the original list that you postedâ€¦”

I gave you the two steps necessary for you to locate any word on any page. I apologise that those two steps seem to be beyond your comprehension. I suggest you consult your browsers Help files to learn how to use the ‘find’ feature.

“No, no Kev. I villified them for being ignorant and incompetent in their jobs NOT for their misspellings. I thought that I was clear on thatâ€¦ “

This is your first post to this thread:

“To watch the Deputy Director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (National Immunization Program) Diane Simpson misspell thimerosal on a few occassions is frightening (she was spelling it thimerosol). I know the spelling thing againâ€¦ but it shows ignorance”

That was your only cited example of their ‘ignorance’ – their ‘misspelling’. I know this is difficult for you Sue but try and understand. They weren’t wrong. You are. All you’re doing by prolonging this is demonstrating your ability to move from ignorance to wilful ignorance.

Look up the words you don’t get.
Kev
May 1st, 2006
21:29:38

“It was like a frigginâ€™ morgue over there when Kristjan starting analyzing one of the studies. Where were you? I know that you knew about the threadâ€¦ where was all of your commentary?”

You want me to critique points of view I agree with? What the hell…? I’m not interested in Kristjan’s views in this regard – he makes sense. Its your opinion on them I’m interested in. Why the constant prevarication?

“I can also attest to the fact that none of these studies conclude conclusively that thimerosal plays a any definitive role in the development of autism.”

And yet you have cited these studies as evidence thiomersal does cause autism. Its obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about or believe in. That is little more than pathetic.

“They are each pieces of a huge puzzle. A little piece here a little piece there.”

Then lets make things even easier for you. Tell me exactly what each of those studies – cited by you on at least one occasion – does show in relation to autism.

“p.s. since when do you care about my answers and or opinions on anything. Why pretend that you do by asking me to answer in my own wordsâ€¦”

I’ve been asking you since you first started showing up on here to explain your beliefs. The facts are that you read EoH, questioned nothing in it – never even tried to read the sources Kirby cites, never even tried to get the other side of the story that Kirby didn’t bother researching.

My God Sue – you are so hypocritical its dumbfounding – you had a massive tantrum once because I posted links to something you’d said elsewhere – tell me what else JB’s sordid little conspiracy site is other than publicising other peoples private email – something you and JB himself consider an affront to dignity.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
21:42:02

This is getting fun now. I’m trying to keep in mind that this is so unimportant… but it is fun. Here we go.

I wrote:

“Neither the list which Kev posted nor Camilleâ€™s list show thimerasol as a proper spellling for thimerosal”.

You responded back to me in response to what I wrote above that:

“ALL mine do Sue”.

– I mistakenly thought that you meant the LIST that you posted a few posts above which referenced the “alternate” spellings of thimerosal. That should be all that counts. You should have been more clear if you meant a simple list of random people/organizations who spelled thimerosal WRONG. It’s too bad that they have misspellings on their work. I expect more from the Acting Deputy Director of the NIP and the other CDC nitwits… Their job was to know all about thimerosal inside and outside… Considering it was supposedly “banned” in 1999… Ms. Simpson should have been able to spell it by 2001. No?
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
21:48:39

Kev wrote:

“Its your opinion on them Iâ€™m interested in”.

– Right. Where were you when I was giving my opinion as to the Danish studies that Kristjan was posting about? I made a few points which you could have engaged in a discussion about but you didn’t, why not?

Kev wrote:

“you had a massive tantrum once because I posted links to something youâ€™d said elsewhere”.

– Wrong…
clone3g
May 1st, 2006
22:50:48

Sue M. Yes, Clone. I wrote that. Do you find discrepancies with what I have said here as opposed to there?

Yes. Specifically here:
unless Clone can show you where I have implicated thimeeroosol as THE cause of any of my childrenâ€™s conditions, then please understand that these are Cloneâ€™s views projected upon meâ€¦ not my views. You understand that, correct?

It wasn’t only on the Fairytale Media site Sue. You’ve said it right here on this blog and elsewhere. You do think thimerosal causes celiac and IDDM, though I think you’ve since watered down your position to “It wouldn’t surprise me” or something. How am I projecting something I don’t believe?
anonimouse
May 1st, 2006
22:55:20

Sue,

Stop with your idiotic spelling straw men, please.

And type 1 diabetes is not caused (in part or whole) by vaccines.
Sue M.
May 1st, 2006
23:32:45

Clone wrote:

“You do think thimerosal causes celiac and IDDM”.

– I believe that it is entirely possible that the immune system attacks by thimerosal could trigger celiac and IDDM. “The spark” so to speak. Or of course it could be some of the viral/other additives that are the main issue. Time will tell.
clone3g
May 1st, 2006
23:53:30

‘Attacking’ the immune system should inhibit autoimmune diabetes Sue so Thimerosal should prevent IDDM. K Sparky?

Your daughter was diagnosed how long after receiving the flu vaccine? Sorry to say Sue but the wheels were set in motion long before that event. Just like autism.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
00:01:28

Mouse wrote:

“Stop with your idiotic spelling straw men, please.

And type 1 diabetes is not caused (in part or whole) by vaccines”.

– Actually, I’m getting pretty tired of the spelling thing too. Hopefully everyone gets it that it’s not really about the spelling :) . Not sure if that’s too much for this group to comprehend. As for the comment about type 1 diabetes not being triggered by vaccines at all. How would you, a mere mouse, know that? Is it because the CDC told you so or did you fall for the wonderful epidemiology experts in Denmark? ?

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe.....38;a.htm#2

Check out the Denmark study that the CDC cites:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/co.....50/14/1398

– Does the name Hviid sound familiar to you all? It should. Why do we give a shit about the rates of type 1 diabetes as it relates to vaccines here in the US? Hello. Different vaccines. Different schedules. No thimerosal. Anyone see an issue with that. Obviously, Mouse doesn’t as she seems to be an expert…
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
00:13:20

Clone wrote:

“â€˜Attackingâ€™ the immune system should inhibit autoimmune diabetes Sue so Thimerosal should prevent IDDM. K Sparky”?

– Is that your interview for a position at the CDC? You’re hired.

Clone wrote:

“Sorry to say Sue but the wheels were set in motion long before that event”.

– It was actually in regards to the Celiac disease that I mentioned the length of time between the flu vaccination and the diagnosis. That’s ok, though. As for the Type 1 diabetes…. The wheels were set in motion probably right around the time of my rhogam shot or possibly day 1 of her birth via the Hep B vaccination. Of course, with a genetic component… Just like autism. All speculation… but again, wouldn’t doubt it.
Kev
May 2nd, 2006
06:08:50

“I mistakenly thought that you meant the LIST that you posted a few posts above which referenced the â€œalternateâ€ spellings of thimerosal. That should be all that counts. You should have been more clear if you meant a simple list of random people/organizations who spelled thimerosal WRONG.”

Once again Sue, I apologise that the English language continues to elude you. The list you have now decided I was referring to is in no way comprehensive or total. Again, if you’d researched just a little bit you’d know that.

“Itâ€™s too bad that they have misspellings on their work.”

Once again, for the irretrievably dim – they didn’t Sue. The error is yours.
Ms Clark
May 2nd, 2006
06:29:15

How “informed” was Dan Burton supposed to be when he wrote “thimerasol”? That is the horrific spelling in question isn’t it? It looks like he wrote “thimerasol” the horrifically offensive/stupid spelling (by Sue’s estimation) in 2002. What is wrong with that man, does he not care enough to learn how to spell it “correctly”?

I guess there aren’t any mercury parent lists for celiac and diabetes parents, otherwise Sue wouldn’t have seemingly endless hours to post inane comments here. She’d be busy over there.

Was there a skyrocketing rate of new cases of diabetes and celiac in children in California in the 1990s which was followed by a crash down to pre-1990’s levels of new cases starting this year? Sue? Huh? That would be interesting to see.
Ms Clark
May 2nd, 2006
06:52:38

Thimerosol is #5 on the list from pubchem.
and I got
“about 15,900” results for “thimerasol.” on Google.
One of them was from a law firm suing over vaccine thimerosal with “thimerasol” in the URL. Who’s going to trust a lawfirm using an alternative spelling of thiomersal in it web address??

I just got a package in the mail. I bought some antique merthiolate ointment. :-) I put some on the back of my hand, started to feel more autistic immediately. I’m going to take a picture of the tube, it’s got a keen metal lid on it. The ointment hadn’t been used. I don’t think there’s a date on it… it might be past it’s use by date, but the only similar stuff you can buy is real mercurochrome (contains merbromin) from Australia, as far as I can find. I don’t know if merbromin has 47 alternate spellings…
Kev
May 2nd, 2006
06:54:35

“I put some on the back of my hand, started to feel more autistic immediately. “

Once again you cause me to almost spit a mouthful of tea over my monitor ;o)
Dad Of Cameron
May 2nd, 2006
07:56:28

“I put some on the back of my hand, started to feel more autistic immediately.”

Shall we place an emergency call in to a rescue angel for you?
We don’t want you tripping and falling into an abyss.

:-)
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 2nd, 2006
09:20:15

SueM: “Accept me for my differences.”

That’s not about differences, Sue… it’s about ignorance. Big difference.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 2nd, 2006
09:22:48

SueM: “I was just trying to suggest that you go out for a role in â€œJailbirdsâ€ ... that could have some pretty good money in itâ€¦ ”

Is this like the intelligence tests of Yerkes and his pals in the early 1900s… I’m supposed to know what that is without having seen it or heard of it? Grow up, Sue…. whilst you still have time.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 2nd, 2006
09:24:39

Anne: “Your point continues to elude me.”

They elude everyone, Anne… but she doesn’t care… she blames ‘difference’ for that, but it is fdefinitely not an issue of difference… more one of ignorance, really. She probably doesn’t want to be clear in these things since – by doing so – she’d expose her own failures of learning here.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
13:36:56

Ms. Clark wrote:

“Was there a skyrocketing rate of new cases of diabetes and celiac in children in California in the 1990s which was followed by a crash down to pre-1990â€™s levels of new cases starting this year? Sue? Huh? That would be interesting to see”.

– Unfortunately, Ms. Clark (is it possible for you to be more autistic), they did not (and do not) track the rates of type 1 diabetes. This is actually a shame. Due to the fact that type 1 D is one of those diseases that can’t be manipulated by ignorant fools who want to claim “better diagnosis”, it would be interesting to see how much higher the rates were in the late 1990’s as opposed to the early 1980’s (as an example). Every endo that I’ve spoken with (ok it’s only been 2) have agreed with the fact that it has increased dramatically (especially in children under 5). Do some homework, you will be able to see that. As for now, in the 2000’s it’s difficult because it seems the lovely Prevnar came into existence and has most likely messed with the numbers. You know that it has been linked with type 1 D, right?
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
13:42:10

As for the spelling issue, if someone is intelligent enough to realize that injecting a known neurotoxin into a baby is a bad idea than they can spell it any way they want to. If, on the other hand, you are an ignorant fool with no clue from the CDC (responsible for the safety of our vaccines) than the least you can do is pretend you have a clue by spelling thimerosal correctly.
Kev
May 2nd, 2006
15:15:15

“As for the spelling issue, if someone is intelligent enough to realize that injecting a known neurotoxin into a baby is a bad idea than they can spell it any way they want to. If, on the other hand, you are an ignorant fool with no clue from the CDC (responsible for the safety of our vaccines) than the least you can do is pretend you have a clue by spelling thimerosal correctly.”

Corrections:

As for the spelling of thiomersal (which I made an issue of) if someone believes the same as me then its OK to ‘misspell’ it. If they don’t, then they are an ignorant fool.
anonimouse
May 2nd, 2006
15:25:43

Then explain this:

http://apha.confex.com/apha/13.....114093.htm

The overall hospitalization rate (of type 1 diabetes) increased from 84.5 per 100,000 in 1995 to 103.8 per 100,000 in 2002 (P = 0.065).

In contrast to this:

http://www.autisticsociety.org/article319.html

Four Canadian provinces – Ontario, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and P.E.I – have not used childhood vaccines containing thimerosal since the early 1960s, when they switched to a DPT vaccine that was combined with the killed polio vaccine. (Thimerosal could not be used with the combined shot because it destroyed the efficacy of the polio vaccine.)

No thimerosal, yet increasing rates of diabetes according to this study.

Try again.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 2nd, 2006
16:40:36

SueM: “As for the spelling issue, if someone is intelligent enough to realize that injecting a known neurotoxin into a baby is a bad idea than they can spell it any way they want to.”

You ever used any proprietory pharmaceuticals, Sue?
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 2nd, 2006
16:41:59

*proprietary

(before she comes after me with her time-wasting distractive spelling corrections…. was she a wanna-be teacher who failed to get in?)
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
17:18:48

Kev wrote:

“If they donâ€™t, then they are an ignorant fool”.

– Let’s get my issue correct here. If a person in a position of power whose job it is to ensure safety of vaccines “misspells” a word which he/she should know considering the ramifications…. THEN he/she is ignorant. If you are an average Joe on the street and you misspell thimerosal well then you misspelled it… no big deal. It’s a tricky word.

The misspelling is ony a SYMBOL of the incompetence.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
17:23:50

Mouse wrote:

“The overall hospitalization rate (of type 1 diabetes) increased from 84.5 per 100,000 in 1995 to 103.8 per 100,000 in 2002 (P = 0.065)”.

– What exactly do you THINK that you are trying to show me here? I have a feeling you are falling way short.

The second study that you supposedly link to was in reference to Deth’s study about mercury/autism (a great one of course). Hopefully, you read it. So why don’t YOU try again, Mickey.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
17:27:13

David wrote:

“You ever used any proprietory pharmaceuticals, Sue”?

– Few, but yes. As for the spelling, I would never correct you on misspelling such a non-important word. We all do that. I only correct people’s spelling when it involves poisoning babies brains.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 2nd, 2006
18:10:01

Just about all pharmaceuticals are poisons…. many having an effect on the nervous system…. think about that.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
18:40:43

David wrote:

“Just about all pharmaceuticals are poisonsâ€¦. many having an effect on the nervous systemâ€¦. think about that”.

– I’m thinking about it and coming from you it is making me laugh me arse off. I’ve taken very few things over the years, a few courses of antibiotics (does that even count)? It is so funny to hear that from you, though, David. Thanks for the laugh… “many having an effect on the nervous system… think about that”. Hello? Vaccines? I’ve been thinking about for over a year… Any one out there? Is it April Fools Day today?
clone3g
May 2nd, 2006
18:58:58

Sue M. The second study that you supposedly link to was in reference to Dethâ€™s study about mercury/autism (a great one of course). Hopefully, you read it. So why donâ€™t YOU try again,

Assuming you’ve read it and understand any of it Sue, what is it that you find Grrrrrrrrreat and what does it tell you about autism? FYI, all of the effects Deth describes? Insulin does it better.

Please stop injecting children with insulin, a known neurotoxin that suppresses the immune system, interferes with methylation, inhibits all sorts of enzymes, dendritic cells, etc.

The government has known about these effects for years and it was never tested for safety. Ignorant fools!
Kev
May 2nd, 2006
19:05:47

“Letâ€™s get my issue correct here. If a person in a position of power whose job it is to ensure safety of vaccines â€œmisspellsâ€ a word which he/she should know considering the ramificationsâ€¦. THEN he/she is ignorant. If you are an average Joe on the street and you misspell thimerosal well then you misspelled itâ€¦ no big deal. Itâ€™s a tricky word.”

Getting your issue straight is what you’ve been avoiding since you started in on this thread. I really don’t know how many more ways its possible to tell you this: nobody misspelled anything Sue. You assumed they did because you’d never seen those spellings before – that’s your ignorance exposing itself, nobody else’s.

Seriously – there have be better reasons for your belief they’re ignorant than this infantile spelling issue. Aren’t there?

“The second study that you supposedly link to was in reference to Dethâ€™s study about mercury/autism (a great one of course).”

And here you are doing it yet again – please explain to us exactly what Deth’s paper had to do with autism and why its a ‘great one’.

Christ, its like shooting fish in a barrel.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 2nd, 2006
19:49:55

SueM: “Iâ€™m thinking about it and coming from you it is making me laugh me arse off. Iâ€™ve taken very few things over the years, a few courses of antibiotics (does that even count)? It is so funny to hear that from you, though, David. Thanks for the laughâ€¦ â€œmany having an effect on the nervous systemâ€¦ think about thatâ€. Hello? Vaccines? Iâ€™ve been thinking about for over a yearâ€¦ Any one out there? Is it April Fools Day today? ”

You haven’t a prayer of adding anything intelligent to the debate, have you? Why funny coming from me... or is this yet another thing you’ll refuse to be clear on? You’re the one on about injecting toxins, and you say that this statement was funny coming from me..... Shitting Jesus, that is rich!

And you say you’ve been thinking about this for a year? Well, where’s your clear intelligent debate on it to show that you have been thinking properly about it? Because I have yet to see you contribute any!

All you do is pull up on spellings, dodge real issues and refuse to clarify when asked to.

Nothing else.

Not really very clever, for a mum-on-a-mission, are you? I’m glad you aren’t my mum… I’d be truly embarrassed.

And incidentally, my mum can hold a rational debate about things, more so that your seem able to do; and she’s had four strokes!

Was she mercury poisoned, Sue? Eh?

My mum’s mission: to help her autistic child (not that they mentioned autistic to her when I was a kid; it’s certainly not in my medical notes)... and this she actually did. Not by ranting at people on inane topics… but by trying to figure out ways in which I could learn about what others might think and feel about anything that I might do.

And your statemate JBJr harps on about my dad and how he should have been fist-fighting me (to, apparently, teach me how not to be a “pussy”.... nice friend you have there, Sue… a real empathic person… NOT!)... my dad did far better than that. He taught me how to enjoy learning the way I naturally learn! My parents didn’t go round bemoaning nonsensical shite like “my kid’s mercury-poisoned and someone must pay because it’s going to cost a fortune to pay some idiot with a syringe to kill or cure him”. No. They got involved, and met me on my terms. Were they perfect? Of course not. But rather them than you or your state-pal there.

With you two, I’d have become a perpetually embarrassed neurotic autistic person.

Nah… with my parents, I got better than with either you or JBJr. And that is something that neither you nor that idiot you seem proud to be associated with can never take away.

And there’s many like me who are equally thankful that we escaped being your (respective) kids.
anonimouse
May 2nd, 2006
20:14:32

Sue,

If you can’t see the irony in claiming that type 1 diabetes is caused by vaccines yet that same type of diabetes has risen substantially (and is endemic) in a population that hasn’t used thimerosal-containing vaccines for decades, then I don’t know what else I can do to convince you.

You really are a true believer, aren’t you? Either that or there’s something you’re not admitting to.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
22:37:48

Clone wrote:

“Assuming youâ€™ve read it and understand any of it Sue, what is it that you find Grrrrrrrrreat and what does it tell you about autism”?

– You and Kev are especially interested in hearing what I (little old unscientific me) have to say about all of these studies. Why? Why don’t you listen to what the experts who did the studies have to say? You can definately hear Deth at Autism Media, go listen. You guys also had a great opportunity to actually get one of your own (Kathleen Seidel)to have a face to face meeting with Dr. Deth, but you chickened out? Why? You could easily engage Maria (who is clearly heads and shoulders above me on the science behind all this) yet usually when she posts—- things get very quiet around here. Why is that?

Clone wrote:

“Please stop injecting children with insulin, a known neurotoxin that suppresses the immune system, interferes with methylation, inhibits all sorts of enzymes, dendritic cells, etc”.

– Cute. That would be considered murder… why would I do that?
anonimouse
May 2nd, 2006
22:56:40

You guys also had a great opportunity to actually get one of your own (Kathleen Seidel)to have a face to face meeting with Dr. Deth, but you chickened out? Why?

Yeah, I’d be VERY excited about some wacky PhD wanting to come to my house for a face-to-face meeting.

You don’t get it, do you? These quacks ALL want face-to-face meetings. They think if they get you in a room, turn on the charm and throw around a whole bunch of scientific mumbo-jumbo that you’ll buy into the b.s. That’s why they want public debates – they can make unsubstantiated claims by the bucketful, not get a rebuttal from the other side, and then claim victory. And a month later when it turns out everything they said was nonsense, it won’t matter. It’ll be like the paper who makes a mistake in a front-page story and then turns around and puts the correction in a 6-point font on page 22.
Dad Of Cameron
May 2nd, 2006
23:18:57

“You guys also had a great opportunity to actually get one of your own (Kathleen Seidel)to have a face to face meeting with Dr. Deth, but you chickened out? Why?

Besidez the lack of nesessuty for a face to face meeting (e-mail is more than appropri8), Deth himself acnolledged a currint lack of siuntifec prufe of the ulleged Themirsolal-autism cunekshun wen he sez,

â€œHowever, I would like to make a virtual wager that within the next 18-24 months scientific evidence will make the thimerosal-autism link a near certainty.â€

That inducates that the evidunce ain’t heer tooday, and that he iz awhere that the speculashun iz not enyware neer certun tooday. That duzint meen it wont be in 18-24 munths, we will haf to wate and see.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
23:19:47

Mouse wrote:

“Yeah, Iâ€™d be VERY excited about some wacky PhD wanting to come to my house for a face-to-face meeting”.

– Well, if I was interested in the topic AND Dr. Deth was a respected researcher who was published peer-reviewed science about the topic, I personally would have asked him if I could meet him at his workplace or in a neutral location or whatever. Not too difficult. I suppose Kathleen didn’t really have an interest in hearing what he had to say. Which is fine. Her perogative. Don’t blame it on her being scared or threatened or whatever… I have been around the block long enough to know that if Kathleen Seidel had felt “threatened” she would have blogged all about… not only would she have blogged all about it… she would have posted the transcript of “threatening conversation”. Did you check out his talk on Autism Media? He didn’t seem all that wacky to me… feel free to listen to it and point out the wackiness.
Sue M.
May 2nd, 2006
23:32:26

Hey Dad,

We may not be at the point of scientific certainty but when you listen to him speak (have you done that yet) than you will see what he KNOWS and what you WILL KNOW eventually. Cute spelling exercise. I will note that the two people who had a grasp on spelling in your above post were myself and Dr. Deth. Not surprising.
Dad Of Cameron
May 3rd, 2006
00:11:26

It’s clear and proven that I’ve got a grasp on nothing then. I’m so glad you understood that.

Is what he speaks different than what he writes?

I don’t understand “see what he KNOWS”. Yes, I don’t have a grasp on that, can you clarify your point?
clone3g
May 3rd, 2006
00:16:13

Sue, why don’t you see if you can get a few of your respected scientists to pop in here and explain the junk science they like to publish? Deth could reach a much broader audience if he explained how his experiments advance our understanding of autism in any way.

Ask the Geiers to tell us about their sheety theories about testosterone.

Maybe Buttar can help to clarify the urine thing.

Bradstreet can lead us in prayer and explain oxidative stress between amens.

Erik has all of the contacts, right Erik. Can you get one of these brilliant scientists over for a little Q&A or is there always a fee involved?
Sue M.
May 3rd, 2006
00:36:47

Clone wrote:

“Sue, why donâ€™t you see if you can get a few of your respected scientists to pop in here and explain the junk science they like to publish?

– To be tortured by the ND’s? I’m not sure that they would want to do that…. You guys are like a group of about 10-20 people maybe, right? I’m pretty sure that they might be too busy….
Sue M.
May 3rd, 2006
00:39:21

Daddy wrote:

“I donâ€™t understand â€œsee what he KNOWS”.

– If you go to Autism Media, you can “see” the video and hear what he knows that you don’t. Sorry to be so confusing.
clone3g
May 3rd, 2006
00:48:00

No Sue,
The audience is much, much larger than 20 and certainly more than Deth would reach through door to door evangelism.
Dad Of Cameron
May 3rd, 2006
02:04:48

“Iâ€™m pretty sure that they might be too busyâ€¦”

Hey some reality.
I wish that ASU chemist or MD out here would have just come out and said that, instead of continuously communicating non-scientific conjecture, emtional appeals, and nonsense in all our communications. I was really hoping they were on to something, and really focused on getting the science right (published with real peer-review, etc.) to learn or prove something one way or the other that would stand up scientifically. It would have been nice, if one of them would have just come out and said, “look, we really don’t have time for this, if we engage in this conversation, you’re not likely to find much real science, so we’re gonna have to cover a lot of material that may not be relevant, a lot that’s been refuted already, and it’s not going to real peer-reviewed publication anyway, but it’s all we’ve got. So if you really want to do this, we will, even though we really don’t have the time”.

I would have said, nah, that’s okay, let’s both save the time.
Dad Of Cameron
May 3rd, 2006
02:09:14

“Maybe Buttar can help to clarify the urine thing.”

Clarified Buttar?
Sue M.
May 3rd, 2006
02:16:50

Mouse wrote:

“If you canâ€™t see the irony in claiming that type 1 diabetes is caused by vaccines yet that same type of diabetes has risen substantially (and is endemic) in a population that hasnâ€™t used thimerosal-containing vaccines for decades, then I donâ€™t know what else I can do to convince you”.

– If you are trying to convince me, this certainly won’t do it. This study is not even about vaccinations. It’s about the rate of DKA and hospitalizations for type 1 diabetes in another country. Ok, so the rates have continued to rise. What’s going on there which could cause that? Maybe it’s environmental, maybe its another vaccine ingredient? Maybe it’s ice cream eating… What does that have to do with the rate of type 1 diabetes in US children over the course of the past 20 years? That’s what I’m interested in.

I do want to point out something to you. Previously, you wrote in regards to me:

“You really are a true believer, arenâ€™t you”?

Previous to that you had posted the following comment:

“And type 1 diabetes is not caused (in part or whole) by vaccines”.

– That was a pretty strong and emphatic comment. So, how is believing that vaccines may play a role in autism/type 1 diabetes and looking for better research into the topic any different from your obviously strong and unwavering position that they don’t? I guess your just a true believer that everything the CDC says or your doctor says is the ultimate truth? How’s that working for you?
clone3g
May 3rd, 2006
02:58:00

Sue M. That was a pretty strong and emphatic comment. So, how is believing that vaccines may play a role in autism/type 1 diabetes and looking for better research into the topic any different from your obviously strong and unwavering position that they donâ€™t?

Your bleeving is based on a desire to bleev even in the absence of evidence.
Faith based.

Any one of us is willing and prepared to be convinced of a relationship once evidence of a relationship is presented.
Evidence based.

The difference? You believe without reason, we see no reason to believe.
Dad Of Cameron
May 3rd, 2006
05:41:52

Transdermal Gheelation
Now that’s a dosha pun.
Kevin Champagne
May 3rd, 2006
05:56:18

Who is Brian Romdalvik?

Brian Romdalvik was another one of Camille Clark’s pseudonyms 9 months ago that claimed to have been ripped off by Dr. Buttar.

If Brian Romdalvik was real, all of you would have been tripping over yourselves to keep him talking, but instead we got this one comment from him passing through the night.

“Dr Buttar believed in this alternative medicine back in 1997 just when he opened his new practice and bought his big horse farm. Lo and behold his son born soon after is autistic by his own testimony. Miraculously cured by him with buttar cream and now plays chess at college level.”

That’s classic Camille!

Where is Brian Romdalvik?

If Dr. Buttar is such a quack, and if he’s ripping people off… where are they?

Wouldn’t they have a blog by now?

Where are they all?

Quackbusters?
Kev
May 3rd, 2006
06:15:53

“You and Kev are especially interested in hearing what I (little old unscientific me) have to say about all of these studies. Why? Why donâ€™t you listen to what the experts who did the studies have to say?”

I know what the experts say, I know (having read the paper in its entirety) what Hornig/Burbacher/Deth et al say: what I want to hear is what your understanding of these papers is and how you believe they support your position.

You do understand that at the moment its clear that you don’t understand these papers or their conclusions don’t you? I think if you cite something you should be prepared to say why – don’t you?
Kev
May 3rd, 2006
06:17:04

Brian Romdalvik is German Kevin.
Kevin Champagne
May 3rd, 2006
06:27:36

Obviously a german name but who is he? Do you physically know of him?
Kev
May 3rd, 2006
06:40:23

His IP address resolves to a city in Germany. I think I swapped a few emails with him but can’t recall for definite. I can’t find anything in my archives but that doesn’t mean much – I empty them out periodically anyway.

It would be very difficult for anyone from the States to pick up an IP that resolved to a German city. It just doesn’t work that way. Proxies can disguise only in-country.
Ms Clark
May 3rd, 2006
08:13:04

Kevin Champagne,

Why do you LIE like that? Aren’t you ashamed? I’m not Brian anybody and never have been.

Now just stop lying about me, ok? And ask Buttar about those clarified urine injections. Does he pasteurize the urine to kill the germs before he injects it into the kid? Wouldn’t that make it lose some of it uriney “goodness”?
Ms Clark
May 3rd, 2006
08:42:59

Kathleen isn’t technically “neurodiverse” but Deth was wanting to hang out with her at her home and convince her face to face… why can’t he hang out with us all here? What’s he got against the neurodiversity folks?

Maybe Dr, Deth was just lonely…
He doesn’t come across as a very bright guy, he didn’‘t know he was on the list of lawyers for the autism omnibus procedings until Kathleen pointed it out. He might actually learn something from hanging with the home-boys here. Though you don’t seem to have learned any science from hanging with the scientists here.

If you aren’t scientifically literate enough to begin to explain why you think your scientists are right—after the extreme flaws in their reasonings are pointed out in simple language, then you aren’t scientifically literate enough to have an informed opinion. You have an uninformed opinion based on your intution only. You don’t even have an autistic child. You don’t know what we are talking about when we talk about our kids. Just like I don’t know what it is to be the mom of a diabetic kid.

Can’t you find someone who actually can talk polymerase chain reaction and cytokines and chi-squares from the mercury parents to come here and not debate but discuss the finer points of the Hornig study, the Deth petri dish experiments, HBOT, urine injections.. chemical castrators for autism, IVIG, vitamin A… B12… someone who knows more than conspiracy theory.

BC and Clone can whup any of your Farside Media website scientists with one arm each tied behind their individual backs. The cool thing about discussions in print is that you can go back and quote people on what they say. Even Andrew Hall Cutler found his way here, but then amscrayed.

I want to know what happened to the study Buttar said he was going to publish on td-dmps™. You know Pat pat said Buttar never really got a trademark on his td-dmps don’t you? That means either Buttar or Pat pat is lying. :-)
Sue M.
May 3rd, 2006
13:46:57

Clone wrote:

“Your bleeving is based on a desire to bleev even in the absence of evidence.
Faith based”.

– I would disagree. I have evidence (anecdotal and scientific) which leads me to my beliefs. If more evidence is presented which shows me that I am wrong … I will follow it. Do you have any? You are similiar to the people holding out during the cigarrette smoking/cancer controversy. They waited for the “real” so-called scientists to tell them what so many others already knew.

Again, if I saw some information which explained certain things, it would help. Even silly non-scientific things like a retraction of the Danish studies, better explanation of what the CDC did and what in regards to the issue (not much from what I can tell), etc. Of course opening up of what’s left of the VSD data would help. All this would at least give us something…. you have nothing but lies, discrepancies, and Offit…
JAAG
May 3rd, 2006
14:00:22

Obviously a german name but who is he? Do you physically know of him?

who cares? got some schlobben zee knobben on the mind?

-just another angry german
Sue M.
May 3rd, 2006
14:00:32

Kev wrote:

“what I want to hear is what your understanding of these papers is and how you believe they support your position”.

– The point is you shouldn’t care about what my understanding is of these papers. We are beyond that. Five years ago maybe that would be important because there was such a small amount of “evidence” or “science”. I would have to defend my position, etc. Not any more. Now, I can just parrot what other more scientific minded people say :) I have seen comments from you such as… I’m going to let Jonathan take over on this statistical analysis of the autism numbers… Or, I’ll let Orac take this on since he’s a doctor or whatever the case may be… Let people do what they do best. I have seen many people come and go here Kev, who have tried (some very calmly) to debate here about the science. Somehow it always gets back to something foolish like some “autistic mice” comment or some crack about Wakefield’s integrity or someone’s vast wealth or whatever… it’s never about the science. Ever. Certainly, I could give you my understanding of the papers but where would it get us? Be honest.
Kev
May 3rd, 2006
14:20:36

“The point is you shouldnâ€™t care about what my understanding is of these papers. We are beyond that. Five years ago maybe that would be important because there was such a small amount of â€œevidenceâ€ or â€œscienceâ€. I would have to defend my position, etc. Not any more.”

I’m not asking you to defend your position Sue. I’m trying to get a sense of whether you actually have a position to begin with. And seeing as none of those papers were published 5 years ago, I fail to see how they could possibly not be up for debate.

“I have seen many people come and go here Kev, who have tried (some very calmly) to debate here about the science. Somehow it always gets back to something foolish like some â€œautistic miceâ€ comment or some crack about Wakefieldâ€™s integrity or someoneâ€™s vast wealth or whateverâ€¦ itâ€™s never about the science. Ever.”

On the contrary Sue – if we’re talking about what is essentially a science based question (is there an autism epidemic, does thiomersal cause autism, etc) then its always about science. I’m sitting here right now asking you to debate the science with me. I’ve asked you to do this so many times I’ve actually lost count. You never do.

Its my position that neither teh Deth, Burbacher or Hornig papers support ther thiomersal/autism connection in the way I assume you think they do. So remove my assumption – tell me how you believe they
support your position. I can’t debate you without knowing where you stand on the issues can I?

“Certainly, I could give you my understanding of the papers but where would it get us? Be honest.”

Because I don’t get you Sue. I don’t think you’re stupid despite our ocassional cat fights but I really think you’re reading much more into these papers than is actually there. I want to understand what it is you believe, or think you know.
Sue M.
May 3rd, 2006
14:22:37

Ms. Clark wrote:

“Whatâ€™s he got against the neurodiversity folks”?

– I imagine that he has nothing against you. Could it be possible that these people wouldn’t want to come into a situation like this where they get attacked left and right? Called a wacky PhD, called a threat? Come on. Could it be possible that Dr. Deth would rather sit face to face with Kathleen Seidel so he wouldn’t have his personal e-mail exchanges plastered over the internet?

Ms. Clark wrote:

“You donâ€™t even have an autistic child. You donâ€™t know what we are talking about when we talk about our kids”.

– Now, that is interesting Ms. Clark. We have already gone over (with as much detail as I care to give you) that my son improved greatly from the biomedical approach for “treating” his Sensory Integration Disorder (cough, cough)... SID which some may have considered PDD. It is ok, though, Ms. Clark if you want to make that an issue. I will say this, I don’t know anything about your child but I guarantee you that I know as much if not more of the physical medical issues (comordities if you will) of many autistic children as you do. It is wonderful that you don’t (if you don’t) have these problems with your child(ren) but of course many do and those are the ones I relate to the best… due to my own personal experiences.

Ms. Clark wrote:

“Canâ€™t you find someone who actually can talk polymerase chain reaction and cytokines and chi-squares from the mercury parents to come here and not debate but discuss the finer points of the Hornig study, the Deth petri dish experiments, HBOT, urine injections.. chemical castrators for autism, IVIG, vitamin Aâ€¦ B12â€¦ someone who knows more than conspiracy theory”.

– A few months back there was someone on here posting who I have reason to believe was a particular DAN! practioner in my local area (One with a great reputation who has helped many children). He may have been able to help answer some of these questions for you (probably not all, but at least give you his personal experiences). Unfortunately the foolishness of this group drove him off… I include myself in the foolishness by the way. You say you want people to come here to post, but would you take time out of your day to be called a baby killer, a quack, a wacky PhD or whatever else may be thrown about? I wouldn’t.
Sue M.
May 3rd, 2006
14:32:32

Kev wrote:

“On the contrary Sue â€“ if weâ€™re talking about what is essentially a science based question (is there an autism epidemic, does thiomersal cause autism, etc) then its always about science”.

– Right. Exactly my point. You guys always find a way to make it about how much money someone has, little baby autistic mice and other such nonsense. I don’t have time to debate you on the science, because I know where it will go. Why don’t you engage Maria with her science? Oops. Because you can’t. As for reading too much into the papers, Kev. I really don’t think that I am. I have said MANY times that none of them PROVE anything but what can we learn from them? Where do we go from there?
Kev
May 3rd, 2006
14:54:11

“Right. Exactly my point. You guys always find a way to make it about how much money someone has, little baby autistic mice and other such nonsense.”

Sometimes it is about those things too Sue. Especially the ‘mice’ thing. That’s pretty important.

“I donâ€™t have time to debate you on the science, because I know where it will go.”

That’s a cop-out. I specifically provided a science forum free from the heated atmosphere this blog generates. You were invited to come over and participate on numerous ocassions but never did.

“Why donâ€™t you engage Maria with her science? Oops. Because you canâ€™t.”

Maria has participated in the science forum and we regularly email each other back and forth. We are, in my opinion, on very good terms. This is because she engages in the science.

Maria has very good reasons for not always wanting to participate in this blog and so I make a point of not engaging her on here. If we want to take something further we do it via email, as she can readily attest if she wants to.

“As for reading too much into the papers, Kev. I really donâ€™t think that I am. I have said MANY times that none of them PROVE anything but what can we learn from them? Where do we go from there?”

OK, good. Thats a start. I’m not asking that you prove anything or disprove anything. I’m simply asking you how you believe they support your theory that thiomersal can cause or lead to autism.
clone3g
May 3rd, 2006
15:23:02

Sue M. I have evidence (anecdotal and scientific) which leads me to my beliefs.

Well if it is at all convincing you won’t mind presenting it. Just because it leads you to believe doesn’t mean it has universal merit. I’m afraid you don’t set the bar very high.

If more evidence is presented which shows me that I am wrong â€¦ I will follow it. Do you have any?

Tell me the evidence you require to change your beliefs? Is there any? No one should have to show you that you are wrong. Assume you are.

You are only interested in things that help you to believe whereas I go out of my way to prove myself wrong. I’ll go with a hypothesis as long as it holds up but I am constantly looking for ways to dismiss everything I am tempted to believe. Just my nature, sorry.

I am willing to acknowledge the possibility that thimerosal triggered autism in some individuals but I can’t just believe because it makes sense to some people with a desire to believe. I need convincing. I need proof and I need evidence. Do you have any?
clone3g
May 3rd, 2006
15:54:46

Sue M: Why donâ€™t you engage Maria with her science? Oops. Because you canâ€™t.

No Sue, no one attempts to debate Maria because she doesn’t make claims that she can’t support. She is the first to admit that she is open to infinite possibilities and always willing to provide infinite volumes of literature to prove it.

On the rare occasion when Maria narrows her energy and makes a single claim she has and will be challenged.

Maria can think and fend for herself and she would probably prefer that you don’t drag her in to your mission or fight.

When you are able to understand and interpret the science and spend as much time scouring the literature as Maria, you won’t need to shift attention from your beliefs. You’ll be equipped to discuss the science in a civil and rational manner.

Expect to invest more than a year or two.
anonimouse
May 3rd, 2006
17:37:22

Actually, Maria and I aren’t terribly far off in our base position. Like her, I think it is certainly plausible that some environmental trigger or triggers play a role in certain flavors of autism. Susceptibility to these triggers may be genetic. I tend to lean towards these triggers being in utero rather than post-natal and think that vaccines or heavy metals are rather implausible triggers unto themselves, but that’s a little bit more about the subtlety of one’s position.

I respect Maria for trying to stick to the science, even if I don’t always agree with her references or her conclusions. It is perfectly acceptable to have an alternative viewpoint if you try to back it up with something other than “well, I believe it because this guy says so” or “I know that drug companies and the CDC are doing this” or “Paul Offit is a bad guy”.
Kassiane
May 3rd, 2006
23:18:58

Did no one else catch that apparently the pancreas and intestine are in the brain?

I mean, Sue even said that she’s only picky about spelling when it involves poisoning babies’ brains.

And her whole Issue is that vaccines caused her child’s celiac disease and type 1 diabetes. Incidentally, those have been around for centuries, they just KILLED people more back then.

Glad to see such an…interesting…view of anatomy.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 4th, 2006
06:32:08

SueM: “I donâ€™t have time to debate you on the science, because I know where it will go.”

Um… you want the science from us, but you ‘don’t have time’ to debate any of us on it?

You can’t be bothered, you mean.

That’s just lazy.
David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending)
May 4th, 2006
06:36:13

SueM: “Dr. Deth was a respected researcher who was published peer-reviewed science about the topic,”

But he isn’t that….