And so, the latest fire-storm in the autism blogosphere continues to rage. If you’re unaware of the story I’ll offer a brief recap (as unbiased as I can make it) before trying to offer up some commentary.
Briefly, JB Handley of Generation Rescue bought the domains supportvaccination.com, oracknows.com and autismdiva.com. Why? I don’t really know. On a practical level they can’t be doing him much good at all so one is left to consider the possibility that he did it as either a joke or to be spiteful. I sincerely hope that the team who is working on his search engine marketing hasn’t recommended that he does stuff like this as if they are then they’re moving him into the realms of what is termed as ‘black hat SEO’ – this refers to doing lots of bad stuff that is against acceptable internet policy to get a good rank on a search engine results page. The penalties for this can be severe if search engines catch you at it and include blacklisting the sites in question and terminating any associated AdWords accounts. From what I know of JB he loves to push the envelope a bit so I wouldn’t be surprised if he is doing this. He is playing with more fire than I think he knows about though.
Anyway, the unsurprising upshot of this is that most people on ‘his’ side of the debate think that a) his methods are questionable but seeing as he’s promoting such an important message the ends justify the means or b) that its downright hilarious. People on ‘my’ side of the debate (please note by using the phrase ‘my side’ I’m not assuming ownership of it) think that a) its all very childish and a bit sad or b) that what he’s doing is tantamount to willfully misleading people.
What are the definite results of JB’s actions? Well, he’s polarised two sides that were beginning to listen to each other a little better. He’s created a new battlefront where none existed before and he’s upset people.
Lets look at JB’s sides claims that even though his methods are questionable that its OK as the message he’s relating is so important the end justifies the means.
First, that is a very dangerous argument to apply to anything. If we call ourselves a society that has a moral base then ‘the ends justify the means’ is at best, ambiguous as a reason.
Secondly, lets look closely at what JB’s message actually is to see if it is indeed justifiable to use methods such as these. Lots of people, particularly JB’s supporters either don’t know or seem intent on ignoring JB’s message. It is this: autism is mercury poisoning. Not _may be_ , not _in some cases_ , not _might be triggered by_ but simply *is*. Now and forever. This is an absolutist position and its the main thing about Generation Rescue that I believe it is imperative to challenge. Why? Because autism is *not* only mercury poisoning. The vast majority of the information on the GR site revolves around the idea that thiomersal in vaccines causes autism. Lets leave the debate as to the scientific validity of that belief to one side for now. I’m quite happy to entertain the possibility that he may well be right. I’m equally happy with the science that as of this time, states that he is not. For my argument – its irrelevant. The fact is that even if JB is right and thiomersal does cause autism _it is not the *sole* cause of autism_.
Big deal say people – why does that matter? It matters because if that viewpoint comes to be accepted fact then the standard treatment for autism will become chelation. And seeing as it is a verifiable scientific fact that autism existed _long_ before thiomersal was ever used this would mean that there were a very large number of autistic children undergoing chelation totally unnecessarily. Question: Is it stupid or clever to subject children to unnecessary medical procedures?
The irony of this message is that it is a standard complaint of the mercury = autism belief system that they couldn’t get their Doctors to look beyond their narrow treatment options. This is _exactly_ what will happen should mainstream medicine ever accept the GR viewpoint that autism is mercury poisoning to the exclusion of everything else.
Let me reiterate once more – I have no issue with any group that calls for more investigation into the use of thiomersal in vaccines and that I’m glad that it is no longer in vaccines. I also fully accept that there are occasions that vaccines have damaged children. I also fully accept that mercury is a known neuro-toxin. What I do not want however, is for my daughters treatment to be a) enforced and b) an unnecessary and dangerous procedure when there is no basis for such absolutism.
So I ask you again Dear Reader – is JB’s absolutist message so good that it justifies his actions? Lets not forget that his actions also include name-calling (JB referred to friends of mine as ‘trailer dwelling coo-coo’s’ and me personally as a ‘wanker’ – a phrase for the non Brit-slang understanding amongst you that means that JB believes I masturbate to excess – roughly equitable to ‘jerkoff’ in US parlance I believe). This is as well as buying up domains that belong to sites that disagree with him.
Many claim that JB has apologised (although I fail to see where he apologised to me) and thus should be forgiven. I agree and disagree with that. I agree that for the debate to progress we all need to forgive and move on. However, this is not a one-off circumstance for JB. This is his MO. At some point, we have to stop making allowances and start holding people to account.
That said, up until this incident, I believed JB’s latest apology was sincere. I still hope it was.
People have also referred to JB’s behaviour as a bull-in-a-china-shop and expressed admiration for his go-get-em approach. I can’t see how such an approach is particularly admirable. Bulls loose in china shops breaking everything indiscriminately and certainly I feel less sure of the shaky common ground that had just started to be secured between the two sides. Lets also not forget _my_ message: that autism is not solely thiomersal poisoning and that bulls loose in _that_ particular china shop run the risk of doing very great damage to the delicate objects inside it.
Now lets move on to the point about upset. People from JB’s side of the debate cannot seem to understand why this action has upset Camille so much. As she is very much smarter than me she doesn’t need me to speak for her but I do wish to add my opinion as to why whats happened might cause her distress.
As a blogger who comments particularly on the science behind the debate she stands or falls on the accuracy of that science. If anyone was misled into thinking she endorsed the GR view then that person may well have further doubts about her validity. I hesitate to speculate as to whether or not that might be one of the reasons JB did it of course.
Secondly, there is an issue here of implicit control. An ugly image is called to my mind of a rich businessman laughing uncontrollably at the image of a less affluent woman as he dangles her on puppet strings. Fanciful? Yes. Exaggerated? No doubt. Based in some element of truth? I’m afraid I think it is.
Thirdly, again, lets look at the GR message and think about why those who are autistic particularly might not want to be associated with it. They believe GR is wrong. Further though, they see GR reducing who they are to a set of mercury related symptoms. Lets not forget that GR believe that autism is *only* mercury poisoning.
Once upon a time (in fact less than 40 years ago) psychologists ‘knew’ that homosexuality was *only* an illness that could be ‘cured’. How do you think that – at the time – that made gay people feel? Imagine a blogging community of parents desperate cure their gay adolescents (who ‘know’ that their children are just ill) – would gay adults be horribly offended and fight back? Or would they sit on their hands and do nothing?
For us parents, the outcome of this debate is very important – our kids depend upon it. For those people who are autistic, the outcome of this debate is absolutely crucial. Their continued survival depends upon it. I ask you once more: in an area of such vital importance, is the method really unimportant when the method denigrates so much? Is it something to be brushed aside as we smile indulgently at its instigator when its tantamount to an attempt to control a debate that affects peoples very right to exist?
Is this message so right that such a total lack of respect for a differing view is at best readily embraced and at worst tolerated in the way we would tolerate a favourite but slightly spoiled child?
Left Brain Right Brain 
Kev wrote: “The penalties for this can be severe if search engines catch you at it and include blacklisting the sites in question and terminating any associated AdWords accounts.”
I hope enough complaints are made to ensure that the search engines catch him at it.
Kev said: “It matters because if that viewpoint comes to be accepted fact then the standard treatment for autism will become chelation.”
Kevin, not necessarily. Chelation is only used after a child is found to be heavy-metal toxic. And there are tests for that, which you already know.
Kev said: “And seeing as it is a verifiable scientific fact that autism existed long before thiomersal was ever used”
Arguably, sure. Although autism wasn’t really identified in the united states until the 40’s. Thimerosal was first used in vaccines in the 30’s. But certainly, there ARE other sources of mercury, throughout history, for one to be poisoned with. However, we didn’t have epidemics of these poisonings as we do today.
Also your comment “I’m glad that it is no longer in vaccines” is not really true. The World Health Organization is distributing vaccines with the full amount of thimerosal all around the world. For the first time ever, China is seeing fast-growing numbers of autistics (2 million and counting), africa and the middle east, too.
As for this whole deal with JB purchasing domains… big deal. If they were important enough for Camille or the others to own…they would have purchased them a long time ago. Was it a silly thing to do? Sure, I think so. As you said, it won’t have any benefit to his web traffic…and I consider it a waste of a few bucks.
But the whole fervor that this has whipped up mystifies me. We’re not talking about a cybersquatter who’s denying anybody their livelihoods and stealing business away. It’s the “nerve” of the thing…an intangible insult… that has you all upset. As useless as his having done it was… so is paying it any mind at all. If those domains are NEEDED, on the other hand…that’s another issue entirely.
Kev said: “Once upon a time (in fact less than 40 years ago) psychologists ‘knew’ that homosexuality was only an illness that could be ‘cured’. How do you think that – at the time – that made gay people feel? Imagine a blogging community of parents desperate cure their gay adolescents (who ‘know’ that their children are just ill) – would gay adults be horribly offended and fight back? Or would they sit on their hands and do nothing?”
Not a perfect analogy, Kevin. Homosexuality is not a disability, despite the horrible treatment and prejudice gays have received throughout history. As for an illness…it’s not even the RESULT of disease, like autism is. It more likely has to do with certain stressor hormones interfering with fetal development (something I read about once). Once the baby is born, there’s nothing to cure. Their sexuality is predetermined at that point. One might argue that it’s a minor birth defect. (But when I say that, I mean absolutely no disrespect to those in the gay community… just as I would mean no disrespect to someone born with any other kind of birth abnormality.)
Autism is different… at least that’s so with the regressive variety. I don’t know how ‘permanent’ autism is as a result of prenatal/maternal mercury exposures… but time will tell. Since biomedical research is uncovering so MUCH with regards to autism… we’ll have the answers we need, soon.
_”Kevin, not necessarily. Chelation is only used after a child is found to be heavy-metal toxic. And there are tests for that, which you already know.”_
I know there are tests that are considered innaccurate, such as hair testing. Thats not the issue.
_” But certainly, there ARE other sources of mercury, throughout history, for one to be poisoned with. However, we didn’t have epidemics of these poisonings as we do today.”_
You’re missing the point Erik. The mercury myths section of the GR website has 25 items. 15 of these revolve around thiomersal. The rest are fairly abstract points. I am challenging GR’s view that thiomersal, as specified by them, is the sole causative of autism.
I am sure there _may_ be other sources for people to be poisoned with but yet again, as you are doing in modern times, you are simlpy stating your beliefs. Unless of course you have evidence of mercury poisoning for these particular people in Victorian Britain?
_”But the whole fervor that this has whipped up mystifies me. We’re not talking about a cybersquatter who’s denying anybody their livelihoods and stealing business away. It’s the “nerve†of the thing…an intangible insult… that has you all upset.”_
I guess to a certain extent you’re right. What it shows me is that here’s a man who doesn’t stop to think about the consequences on other people. What matters to JB, or you, or me is not necessarily the same thing that matters to otehr people. The fact that others may have wanted those domains is, as you say, beside the point. The interesting thing to me is what it reveals about the motivations of the person who _did_ buy them.
_”Not a perfect analogy, Kevin. Homosexuality is not a disability, despite the horrible treatment and prejudice gays have received throughout history.”_
My analogy was not drawn between the status of autism and homosexuality but in the lack of respect those who hold the power feel for those who ‘suffer’ with the ‘disability’ or ‘disease’ or ‘illness’.
_”Since biomedical research is uncovering so MUCH with regards to autism”_
I’m genuinely curious here. What has Biomedical research uncovered that doesn’t touch on mercury in any way? I’m not trying to catch you out, I’ve never heard anyone say this before is all.
Erik wrote, “Chelation is only used after a child is found to be heavy-metal toxic.”
Is this true? I don’t think so, not even close. If this were true then why wouldn’t mainstream docs be picking up the heavy metal poisoning? Oh that’s right, they’re all in on the conspiracy. Or is it that they’re all incompetent?
On the other hand, it’s scary if every single child brought into clinic X is found to be heavy metal poisoned. Think of the odds.
Maybe in order to justify (CYA) and start IV EDTA a child would have to be ‘found‘ to be lead poisoned.
JB can’t get away from his absolutist position that autism is a myth. I am reminded of Fred Leuchter, a self-trained, absolutist maniac. The psychos and profiteers who fed his ego used him as their talking head. He might be considered tragic if his actions weren’t so sickening or if he made any attempt to concede the valid points of others – nope, the maniac stuck to his twisted story.
Indeed, hollywoodjaded – ego trumps dollars.
A lot of people in the mercury brigade think that Alzheimer’s is caused by mercury too. What would happen if family members of Alzheimer’s patients insisted that Alzheimer’s = Mercury Poisoning so please stop spending money on research into other causes and concentrate on mercury. **Neurodegeneration Rescue**
Where’s the harm right? So what if important discoveries are postponed by decades, none of that will matter once the truth is finally revealed.
Maybe that too is all part of the big conspiracy to keep us all sick and create a market for “Big Pharma” drugs which don’t cure anything other than treat symptoms.
A lot of people think Alzheimer’s is caused by Aluminium . It’s been found with neurofibrillary tangles in Alzheimer’s. Many vaccines contain Aluminium adjuvant so why isn’t the government and the pharmaceutical industry busy suppressing research on Aluminium and Alzheimer’s? You would think the Aluminium cookware cartel would keep a lid on it, right?
clone3g, now I’m understanding the MIT-aluminum foil hat connection with neuro disorders.
It’s the vapor from the Al? Do Dairy Queen employees (their burgers are wrapped in Al foil – at least they did when I was flipping) have a higher Al blood concentration than McDonald’s employees? I’m pretty sure McD switched to waxed paper and styrofoam some time ago.
More burger than bun.
I don’t know if it’s from JB or someone else but here’s another example of the sort of delightful tactics the folks on the anti- mercury side like to use – http://drproffit.blogspot.com/
That link will take you to a nasty and crude parody site where the (of course) anonymous author, for instance, makes fun of the personal appearances, educational background and careers of the people who he says run the supportvaccination.org site. Does the author really think such bullying will win converts to his side? (the people on the EofHarm list- including Wade Rankin- seem to think it’s a hoot).
Comments on the blog’s posts are left by people with names like “boracs toes” and “kiv leech” which will give you the idea of the level of wit involved.
Kev, thanks for the pointer to http://aut.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/8/1/7 … It is an interesting Monday morning read.
I saw that blog Kevin. I think its fairly obvious that its a hit piece to get at JP disguised as satire – I also think from the level of hate being thrown around that the author/creator is well known to us all. Best ignored really, if you’ll forgive the pun.
… the people on the EofHarm list- including Wade Rankin- seem to think it’s a hoot …
I thought the parody of me within the comments was a hoot. As far as the point you made about the parody of JP, including unflattering pictures, I will publicly state here that I agree that portion of the parody went way over the line of propriety. I have no idea who is behind the site, but I frankly think that, besides the portion devoted to JP, it shows far more subtlety than JB has ever demonstrated.
Geez BC, get caught wearing a Foil Hat at one party and you’re labeled for life. I do, on occassion, wear foil in my hair but that’s for the highlights. Nothing to do with blocking government mind control which I welcome. Drats! Foiled again.
I made a few visits to http://drproffit.blogspot.com/
Cruelty is not funny and has never been. It does not provide humor, it does not reveal truth, it does not offer perspective, it makes a mock of “The golden rule”, and ultimately it harms those who use it.
Thank you Diva, Kev, Orac, Prometheus, JP, J. Ken. Wickiser, and Skeptico; for staying the course in spite of this sort of thing.
_”Thank you Diva, Kev, Orac, Prometheus, JP, J. Ken. Wickiser, and Skeptico; for staying the course in spite of this sort of thing.”_
Well, I only rate a single comment sockpuppet so far but to be honest, I take it as quite an honour – I’ve obviously pissed some idiot off enough that they’re willing to invest their precious time in doing this sort of thing. You have to look at it from the perspective that someone(s) are so intimidated by what we as a group have to say that they can’t come and debate us about it – all they can do is mimic what we say. Bless ’em, I bet they stayed up way past their bedtimes getting this set up.
This is more a propos of the comments than the original post.
I don’t work for the NHS, but I work in an NHS building. One of the major topics of conversation about the place is ‘how the hell do we save £13 million over the next year’. The NHS is permenantly cash-strapped. If there are treatments that will save it money, it jumps on them. If chelation cured autism, it would be in there with enthusiasm; you’ve cut health, education and social care costs (I know this is a very crude way of talking about it). The NHS isn’t a ‘pharma shill’; profits from drugs sold to the NHS are capped. No, it’s not perfect, and yes there are problems, and occasionally it does do stupid things.
After all, what do you think these driven activists would rather be doing…
Uhm, cybersquatting?
Bonni, as silly as cybersquatting is… it doesn’t really take any time to do that. Wasting time putting together a parody blog takes time and effort. Besides, you gave an answer to the first part of my question..out of its context.
Pretty typical for you.
M wrote: “If chelation cured autism, it would be in there with enthusiasm;”
Chelation curing autism is a cartoon argument. Cure is a bad word to use…and chelation is never used as a sole measure. It is a therapy for heavy metal toxicity. Recovering a child from autism doesn’t rely on any ONE therapy…be it biomedical or behavioral. These children also have mineral deficiencies, viral, bacterial and inflammation problems in their guts…and a whole lot of “catching up” to do, necessitating Occupational, Speech and other behavioral therapies.
Guided by a competant physician, these approaches (typically referred to as the DAN! approach) result in remarkable improvements for most of these children. Some recover completely. There’s plenty of literature out there for you to study, if you’d bother. Or do prefer to get your biomedical knowledge from the ND crowd???
Eric wrote:
“Chelation curing autism is a cartoon argument. Cure is a bad word to use…and chelation is never used as a sole measure. It is a therapy for heavy metal toxicity. Recovering a child from autism doesn’t rely on any ONE therapy…be it biomedical or behavioral”.
–Exactly, Eric. Let’s also keep in mind that the younger the child the better in both biomedical AND behavioral treatments. That is why many of us think that it is imperative that the message gets out NOW.
-Sue M.
Erik wrote: There’s plenty of literature out there for you to study, if you’d bother. Or do prefer to get your biomedical knowledge from the ND crowd???
No Erik. I do not. The “ND” crowd, whatever that is, doesn’t offer medical or scientific advice. If you see it that way I invite you to show me an example. I DO study the literature and I DO try to understand it. If the literature you speak of is that from the DAN! organization then I encourage you to expand your choice of reading material, but I DO read that too. I hate to be the one to enlighten you, but the DAN! folks tend to borrow legitimate research and distort it so that it may appear to be their own. It’s all a big ball of McCandle wax that gathers mass as it rolls along but melts under the bright lights.
Sue M. said: Let’s also keep in mind that the younger the child the better in both biomedical AND behavioral treatments. That is why many of us think that it is imperative that the message gets out NOW.
Yes NOW is the operative word isn’t it? Cure, Defeat, Harm, Awareness, Act, etc., NOW!! DO IT NOW!! we can’t wait for the science and the studies. We want it NOW!!
In this fast food society we have no time for procedure or protocol! We want it NOW!! Place your order. Pull around to the first window. Pick up your easy to understand pseudo-science McBible and cure your starving brain child NOW!! We don’t have time to consider other points of view. we have to act NOW!! Quality research takes time so we’ll order junk science that supports our position NOW!! with a side of lies.
Mmmmm, tasty but I’m still hungry. Better super size it. NOW!!
Clone, yes, we want it now, damn it! How many kids have to enter adolescence as autistics, missing their window of opportunity for improvement?
How many NEW cases of autism, that could have been prevented…are entering the system because the IOM says mercury isn’t worth investigating???
NOW NOW NOW!!! Is a very good idea. and the answers are coming because the parent groups are funding the necessary research.
By the way, you answered a question I had intended for “M”, unless that’s you…
“And only a complete fuckwit would go along with a treatment for which the validity and reliability of the results was very well open to question.”
Andrews, are you calling me a fuckwit? Since I know what you think of the treatments we give our kids, your statement sounds like a thinly veiled insult and I don’t appreciate it. My child is improving thanks to what you might call “junk science.” However, I’ll take lab and clinical science over epidemiology any day of the week.
Kev said: _that someone(s) are so intimidated by what we as a group have to say that they can’t come and debate us about it – all they can do is mimic what we say._
Not meaning to disrespect – but how can one have a debate when you delete their comments?
Camille said: _there was no “ND blogger†harassing JB’s “rescue angelsâ€, that was a lie or an impulsive unsubstantiated statement._
It is not a lie. It is fact. Why else would JP have closed up shop so quickly? Had Kev not deleted my comments under the his Wakefield post, you would have known the whole story.
Change of subject – let me share with you all an anonymous email I received a few days after Camille recieved her hacker email:
_Hey Ashleigh,
You better watch how you’re talking
And where you’re walking
Or you and your homies will be lined in chalk_
Obviously it was supposed to scare me, except I laughed my arse off. I realized right away it was the lyrics from a rap song. Pretty sad when your harassor can’t come up with something original
“ND Crowd”?
AH! Finally I think I’m understand this: “N.D.” REALLY stands for NOT DAN! So all of us who may be, oh let’s just say, treating specific co-morbidities or following some of the real and more arcane, as it were, science … BUT are not toting around the McStarving Brain Bible or buying Buttar creme or prostrating ourselves before the ArchRescueAngel, THEN WE must be NOT “treating” at all. How extraordinarily presumptuous, but it goes along with the “basic duality” kind of thinking one see from a certain group.
hollywood, so you have no idea whether your child is heavy metal toxic or not? What about gut issues? Have you scoped to check for gut inflammation, or biopsied to check for viral infection? How about titers in the spinal fluid?
What have you done to determine your child’s medical problems?
What science do you follow?
Nanstiel… “Andrews, are you calling me a fuckwit?”
Did I mention your name? If not, then I did not.
“My child is improving thanks to what you might call “junk science.†However, I’ll take lab and clinical science over epidemiology any day of the week.”
Problem is… it isn’t clinical science, is it? Clinical science is that which is subject to peer review, which the stuff you use actually hasn’t been able to stand up to.
Period.
How very presumptuous of you Nanstiel. I do not discuss medical details of any family members on blogs. But you can rest assured no stone is left unturned.
Since you are of the opinion that you are following a “biomedical approach”, may I assume that you have performed tests to rule out all of the known causes of autism and/or ruled out genetic mutations by running an entire genome scan. You’ve done a muscle biopsy for mito disorders, MRS for creatine deficiency — for example? You’ve checked for the following titres: CMV; EBV; HSV1; HSV2; HHV6; ANA? You’ve checked for H Pylori? You’ve checked for ail strep variants; Alpha Interferon; quantitative ig’s ?
You don’t need to answer, btw, as I consider this type of medical information PRIVATE.
thank-you,
-hollywoodjaded
EN: “Since I know what you think of the treatments we give our kids…”
Yes, and I would NEVER be that irresponsible with my child.
Andrews, it sounds so final when you use those one-word paragraphs.
Wow.
Whereas you wait for the double-blind placebo, peer-reviewed papers to be gold-stamped by the CDC, FDA and the IOM… I’ll actually go ahead and READ the studies being done…talk to the researchers personally and learn how their work applies toward treatment.
Then I’ll go talk to parents who were brave enough to participate in the clinical trials…learn how their children responded and try to decide whether to have my daughter tested for which new potential treatment is appropriate for her.
Which is exactly what I did. I don’t care much what the national health agencies put their stamps on anymore. I can see where the financial conflicts lie… and I can read the papers that refute their flawed epidemiological studies… and I can use my own judgement and choose a doctor who isn’t conflicted, but generally cares for the children they treat.
Now, who do I listen to… about 50 of the PhD’s and MD’s I’ve had a chance to interview personally… or some uninformed BA-status Special Ed teacher who’s vocabulary includes “fuckwit”?
See my dilemma?
hollywood said “You don’t need to answer, btw, as I consider this type of medical information PRIVATE.”
Oh, that’s a load of B.S! Private? You’re an anonymous poster!!! Anything you say is private, right?
ANyhow, it makes it hard to debate a subject if you can’t discuss details.
Oh, and incidentally, Erik…. I’m a psychologist; I tell the special ed teachers how to do their job.
EN: “or some uninformed BA-status Special Ed teacher …”
Ah, yes… and make that BA-status (psychology major) with a Postgraduate Certificate in Special Education (applied educational psychology, specialist in autism).
*Thinks to self* Hmmmm….. why does EN have to try berating my qualifications? Does he not like the fact that we were taught real science? The stuff that goes through peer review… that stands up to scrutiny.
As opposed to wishful thinking.
That’s OK, Eric. Why don’t you just think of me as fuckwit. I have no problem with that.
Clone wrote:
“Yes NOW is the operative word isn’t it? Cure, Defeat, Harm, Awareness, Act, etc., NOW!! DO IT NOW!! we can’t wait for the science and the studies. We want it NOW!!
In this fast food society we have no time for procedure or protocol! We want it NOW!! Place your order. Pull around to the first window. Pick up your easy to understand pseudo-science McBible and cure your starving brain child NOW!! We don’t have time to consider other points of view. we have to act NOW!! Quality research takes time so we’ll order junk science that supports our position NOW!! with a side of lies”.
— Clone, Thank you for your well thought out and informative rant. As always, you are delightful.
Moving on, I say NOW because the younger the better when it comes to both biomedical and behavioral interventions. No mystery there. Just start with the easy stuff like diet intervention, EFA’s, probiotics, etc. The real basics. I can’t imagine that you would have an issue with that. So, let’s educate the pediatricians out there on the basic stuff. Real easy. Except it isn’t real easy because with that often the child will improve and the parent with a brain cell will want to learn more and then comes the other part of the equation – reducing toxic exposures to the child. Oh boy… now we have a problem.
-Sue M.
_”Not meaning to disrespect – but how can one have a debate when you delete their comments?”_
You can debate anything you like on hre, as long as I’m happy I know what the boundries are. When it comes to legal matters I don’t. I’m no lawyer and I won’t second guess whats OK and whats not. The only other occassion I delete comments is when they’re pure abuse i.e. John Best. You’re welcome to say whatever you like, using whatever language you like as long as thee’s a point being made, its not illegal (i.e. Kim Clarkes repeated posting of copyrighted material) and I’m comfortable that I know what the consequences might be. I don’t really see what the problem with any of that is.
FYI Ashleigh: JP doesn’t subscribe to an ND viewpoint. He may have some sympathy for the general position as it relates to vaccines but thats about it. His overriding concern is vaccines. As with Orac, Skeptico and a whole host of others we have interests that coalesce at some points but I think it would be presumptous of me to say that they subscribed wholeheartedly (or even at all) to the ND philosophy.
_”Chelation curing autism is a cartoon argument”_
I completely agree Erik. However, as I’ve said to you in my previous comment, my challenge is to GR’s polarising and absolutist position. They say:
_”The ultimate goal of treatment is to remove the mercury from your child’s body through a process known as chelation (key – LAY – shun) or other detoxification procedure.”_.
They also have a whole section devoted to chelation. There aren’t any sections devoted to ABA or mineral deficiencies etc. This post is a challenge to their absolutism which in the long term will be very harmful to those autistic people now and in the future, that are not mercury poisoned via thiomersal.
I also see that you must have missed my request for you to sow me all the things about autism (as oppose to mercury poisoning) Biomed based science has uncovered. After all, you say:
_”However, I’ll take lab and clinical science over epidemiology any day of the week.”_
So, lets see some. Finally.
Ashleigh – sounds like the genius who made the Dr. Proffit thought s/he was being really clever and pinged you with that pathetic piece. PS – is that violence what is played on the radio these days?
Erik said, ‘Now, who do I listen to… about 50 of the PhD’s and MD’s I’ve had a chance to interview personally… or some uninformed BA-status Special Ed teacher
who’swhose vocabulary includes “fuckwitâ€?‘there, I fixed the vocab for you
Erik, have you ruled out the possiblity that your child has made gains independent of chelation? Who has injected Hg back into their child and watched the behaviors etc return? Who has repeated the chelation to observe the same advances occur again? Who has tried the other biomedical options, that Erik and Sue M. say are necessary to recover from autism, only to have them fail until they were repeated after chelation was initiated?
My bet is that some children are metal poisoned, probably from sources that they do not suspect. I also suspect that most of the gains seen using these protocols are due to normal development that would have occured without the lotions, IV’s, saunas, and pressure vessels.
Sue said:
_”reducing toxic exposures to the child. Oh boy… now we have a problem.”_
We do? Are you insinuating that I or Clone, or anyone else would have an issue with preventing children access to toxic exposure?
My general position (which others agree or disagree with) is that
a) Its incorrect to say all autism is mercury poisoning via thiomersal as propounded by GR.
b) Given a) its vital that parents are aware the chelation is a dangerous proceedure that carries a risk and that its equally likely that their childs autism was not caused by thiomersal or any other form of ethylmercury. I’ve aksed this in two places now and had no one from your side gave me an answer so I’ll ask it again: After young Tariq died, people from your side of the debate said we shouldn’t rush to conclusions about the role IV EDTA played in his death. Meaning we don’t know what it did or didn’t do.
Given that, on what level is it a good idea for Rashid Buttar to implement a new protocol that includes IV EDTA? I’d be very interested in hearing Erik’s thoughts on that as a staunch supporter of Buttars work.
The point as it pertains to you Sue is that your building of strawmen arguments doesn’t detract from the point – no ones saying preventing children access to toxins is a bad thing. Get that message out as loud and clear as you like. But lets not pretend thats what your message is. You’re not saying (or, more accurately, GR are not saying) that thiomersal may play a role in causing autism, or that its a good idea to avoid mercury. GR are saying that thiomersal in vaccines caused/causes autism in all cases, in the past, in the present and in the future. They’re following up by saying chelation is the cure. Which as Erik points out, is a cartoon argument.
Just in case you’ve not seen it, GR took out a full page ad in the New York Times recently thanking scientistis for their work in establishing a connection between mercury and autism.
Shortly after, some of the scientists named on the GR ad sent this to the NYT:
— begins —
Dear Editor:
In a full-page advertisement in the November 14th New York Times, GenerationRescue thanks scientists for their “groundbreaking research on the connection between mercury and autism.” Unfortunately, this expression of gratitude also conveys misleading messages.
It implies that all of the research listed in the advertisement was focused on mercury and autism. While many of the listed studies did explicitly investigate a potential link between mercury and autism, our papers, which were also included, did not.
Perhaps more troubling is that the ad implies that those of us whose names and institutions are prominently displayed are convinced that there is a causal connection between mercury exposure and autism risk. However, we do not believe there is a proven connection between mercury and autism.
Autism is an extraordinarily complex condition likely arising from a number of distinct causal pathways each probably comprising multiple steps. We do support continued research of mercury exposure and neurodevelopment – particularly work focused on identifying those more highly susceptible to mercury. However, if mercury’s potential role in autism is overemphasized other promising lines of research may be jeopardized.
We are enormously thankful for the dedication and energy of the autism advocacy organizations that work tirelessly to increase autism awareness and to secure funding for much-needed research. However we believe GenerationRescue’s advertisement, at first appearance an innocuous gesture of appreciation, may actually mislead the public into thinking that the mercury-autism hypothesis has stronger support in the scientific literature than it actually does.
Craig J. Newschaffer, Ph.D.
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
Martha R. Herbert, M.D., Ph.D.
Massachusetts General Hospital
Diana Vargas, M.D.
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
Carlos A. Pardo-Villamizar, M.D.
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine
James G. Gurney, Ph.D.
University of Michigan Medical School
Andrew W. Zimmerman, M.D.
Kennedy Kreiger Institute
— ends —
The page on the GR site that the ad in question lived on is now blank. Somewhat understandably.
Luckily, through the vast power of the intraweb, its easy to track down a copy. Here it is.
So, minus the studies authored by the above, GR is left with the same old ‘science’ from Blaxill, Haley etc. None of which establishes a causal relationship between thiomersal and autism.
You can read more about this letter at AutismDiva’s site
Erik said: Whereas you wait for the double-blind placebo, peer-reviewed papers to be gold-stamped by the CDC, FDA and the IOM… I’ll actually go ahead and READ the studies being done…talk to the researchers personally and learn how their work applies toward treatment.
Yes, yes Erik. We all know “You have that kind of access”, something you are always anxious to point out, but reading the studies and understanding them are very different things. I don’t pretend to understand all of the research I read but don’t think your claims of understanding the science will go unchallenged. So instead of boasting about all of the PhD’s and MD’s you hang around with, why don’t you present something, anything, that shows mercury causes autism. Just pick one study or even a paragraph and translate it for us so that we can all understand your obsession with mercury. Come on, here’s your chance to shine. If you were hoping we’d be impressed by the company you keep, it makes me think you are involved with the autism community just to be part of something, not to find answers. Shine on you crazy diamond.
Now, if you have a message to spread, wouldn’t it carry more weight if you were actually curing a bunch of kids? I know you can get one or two “recovered autistics” to show up at a rally or conference but where are all of the kids you’ve “cured?” Yours? JB’s? JB Jr’s? Kevin C.? Sue? Anyone? It’s great that you are all doing your best to help your kids but how do justify selling the message that autism = mercury poisoning and chelation is the cure if you haven’t cured your own kids? I don’t mean this as a dig, it’s an honest question. Do you feel comfortable dragging other parents in to your world of illusion so you’ll have more company? Hope is wonderful and I don’t wish to take that away from anyone but each one of you is an example of how it can consume. The folks that have been at this longer than you, have they “cured” their children? We hear all of these wonderful stories but can you understand why it’s a little hard to get excited when the speakers have children that are still very much autistic. If chelation or HBOT, or secretin, vitamins, or whatever cured autism, it would be impossible to keep it a secret. The NYT and every other paper would give you full page coverage for free.
Kev wrote:
“We do? Are you insinuating that I or Clone, or anyone else would have an issue with preventing children access to toxic exposure”?
— No, I’m not insinuating that. Let me try again. What I was trying to get at was first we can start with getting the ped’s to start with the small easy stuff: diet intervention, EFA’s, probiotics, etc. Then, when (and if) the child improves, the parents will say:
” Wow, there’s really something to that crazy diet thing. We need to know everything about this biomedical stuff because there’s something to it”.
So they will go online and read and discuss with other parents and read some more, etc. Then, as good parents they will go back to their pediatrician and say:
“What the f*ck were you doing injecting my kid with mercury, you stupid ass”?
— So, there is one of the problems with this issue. I believe that many pediatricians, CDC, FDA, etc. are scared to acknowledge that biomed treatments MAY really help some children on the spectrum. By doing so, they open up a big can of worms. By opening this can of worms, they may be faced with a truth that is too frightening to believe.
-Sue M.
BC: “Erik, have you ruled out the possiblity that your child has made gains independent of chelation? Who has injected Hg back into their child and watched the behaviors etc return? Who has repeated the chelation to observe the same advances occur again?”
Precisely.
There is nothing scientific about the protocols used there. There is no test for spontaneous improvement in ability to function in the world. No revisitation of any baseline measure….
It isn’t science. it’s fucking voodoo. So let’s call it what it fucking is!
You with me, BC? 😉
Sue M. said: we can start with getting the ped’s to start with the small easy stuff [….] Then, as good parents they will go back to their pediatrician and say:
“What the f*ck were you doing injecting my kid with mercury, you stupid ass�
Wow Sue. What an excellent plan! Should work too, what with all doctors being so stupid compared to parents. OK, so that takes care of the medical profession.
Who’s next? Let’s see, we could ask a librarian for the Sartre collection on the top shelf and when they climb the ladder for it, slice their Achilles tendon and say, “What the f*ck were you doing loaning subversive literature to my kid, you stupid assâ€?
Let’s see…ah! Autism researchers! We could get them to look at brain tissue and such and then when they publish their studies we could say, “What the f*ck were you doing looking at brain cells, you stupid assâ€? And then tell people their work proves a mercury connection!
Next? Teachers….
As I have said before and will say again: I am done criticizing other parents, and I really mean that. I regret the times I have, I felt badly, and I won’t again. Diva, I must admit, I have grown to respect for her strength and wit, while still disagreeing with almost everything she says. Kev, the very same. I don’t need the feelings in return.
Orac is a jack-ass. A doctor who call other doctors quacks. JP…I’ll hold my tongue (so as not to be deleted), but his actions are of the lowest form.
So, I’m happy to be a pest to Orac and JP, and have no interest in future conflict with parents. That’s why I handed over diva.com to Camille. It’s hers. Her voice.
Kevin is right. There are no absolutes in ASD. Can I prove an absolute. No? Does he need to worry about forced chelation anytime soon? I think not.
And so it goes. You may not agree with my methods. Nothing new for me and feel free to project on to me, I can take it. As anyone who knows me would tell you, I’m not afraid of conflict. The fight I really have is with CDC, IOM, and AAP – this is where my energy is headed. They are the villains, not parents who disagree. I’m confident my “methods†will make a dent.
One thing I’ve realized about the time I’ve spent with you folks is that it has done little to a) get other kids into treatment or b) help my son. As these are my 2 goals, I realize it is time better spent for me.
Best,
JB
Mitä vittua perkele?!
Ihan vittu perkeleesti mitä sie teet????
Hevon vittu rekkamiehen pastilli
Clone said:
“Wow Sue. What an excellent plan! Should work too, what with all doctors being so stupid compared to parents”.
— Thank You, Clone. I think that it may just work too. Let’s hope so.
-Sue M.
VITTUPASKASAATANAPERKELE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And fuck the trucky who eats THAT kinda shite 😛
Sue,
I think that Clone was taking the piss a wee tad there…..
eli, mie luulen, että clone3g oli sua kusettamassa varmaan siellä…..