Irony and fear

17 Feb

I tried to stay away. Honestly. I’ve had enough of Andrew Wakefield for a long time. But a news story came out with two paragraphs that I couldn’t let go.

From DallasNews.com is an article “Some parents embrace discredited researcher whose studies link autism to vaccinations”. In it, Andrew Wakefield is quoted as saying:

“The tragedy is that it’s taking attention away from the real issues of how to help these poor children,” the 54-year-old surgeon said in
an interview Friday.

How much time has been wasted by parents and researchers in the MMR story?

That’s the irony. Now the fear.

Today, Wakefield, who hopes to open an Austin residential facility for autistic adults, said he regrets having to spend so much time
defending his 13-year-old study.

OK, I don’t really fear this as (a) I doubt it will come to pass and (b) I doubt my kid will end up in Austin.

So many thoughts go through my head thinking about Andrew Wakefield running programs for autistic adults. I seriously am at a loss for how to put those thoughts into words.

93 Responses to “Irony and fear”

  1. John Fryer Chemist February 21, 2011 at 08:25 #

    Hi Sharon

    My surname is the fish and chip variety. Pas grave and a change from gratuitious insults at any event.

    Incidently ecclesiastical friars don’t have children so genetically they are an extinct race.

    Some science at least is not controversial. But then there is no money involved.

    The regressive autism is from those people naturally who believe in environmental causes.

    The best scientist on autism for me who believed and found regressive autism was of course the late Bernard Rimland and I do have some comments by him if not papers.

    I will check some out for you but it may take a few days.

    Regressive autism does of course lead inexorably to an environmental cause rather than just accepting and putting up with this catastrophe of grand proportions.

    Remember it was intially called infant schizophrenia in tandem with autism and before about 1943 the word did not exist.

    I do have many books and papers where this illness does not exist.

    It is frightening to think this illness has appeared recently and arrived at such levels in so short a time.

    I first came aware of autism as an outsider only 15 years ago when I remember just the odd case and feeling totally helpless as to its cause.

    Yes, lead has gone down and only because the chemical industry suddenly found no need for it in petrol.

    The history of the struggle to remove lead is much like that to remove mercury. It was a long struggle and the Wakefield equivalent was for example Harold Needleman. Harold was of stern stuff and saw his adversaries off with panache. Later they then moved on to Dr Deborah C Rice another expert on neurotoxicity.

    Only after the removal of lead was the effect of reducing lead monitored and the improvement in neurological health of the areas and people most affected.

    As with any illness on multiple causes it is child’s play to come up with epidemiology to tell you anything you want and with pay outs to epidemiologists like Doll even lies can get passed as fact.

    Organophosphates (OP for short) are a recent neurological insult to everyone in the industrial countries and the harm was known and covered up 60 years ago but authority has this death wish for all of us and still uses it to make us mad and confuse the issue that they are not alone in harming us today.

    Ironically the OP saga started in the very place of this discussion at the Royal Free in the 1950’s when every single doctor and nurse there was toxified by the then brain destroyer of the time which later was quietly removed after several years of “safe” use especially at the Royal Free.

    After every big cover up of any disaster the road is open for even bigger cover up and even bigger disasters.

    Tens of million autism children around the world when it should be ZERO is to me an HONTE.

  2. John Fryer Chemist February 21, 2011 at 08:35 #

    Hi again Sharon,

    Are you in the USA? If so you will have had the Hep B vaccine at day one. Often people think they have not had this for theoretically you need to give WRITTEN permission but from cases studies this is taken as a wave or movement when asked while in pain from labour et al.

    Babies often get large brains from head swelling after this vaccine. One clue not easy is to look at the head size before the Hep B which is often in the middle and then check the next head size before the next vaccine. Many where irreversible harm has occurred from Hep B magically change their head size from normal to over the top. Later as time goes on this then goes back to normal and small as the head growth has now all but stopped.

    None of this is scientific but it does give a clue rather than guessing completely.

    I keep asking that head measurement need to be done ACCURATELY and remeasured a day and a week later to see if and how much the head has blown up after vaccines.

    I suspect it happens to some degree to EVERY early vaccinated baby.

  3. John Fryer Chemist February 21, 2011 at 08:56 #

    Hi Chris

    Yes, that was the Colindale study.

    Colindale is the place in the UK for medical research of excellence. (Colindale Road, London)

    Another aspect of note is that the study looked at more than 35 000 people for 27 years and gets just three names onto the paper list.

    This seems more reasonable than papers looking at a a few people and being written by more than the people involved in the research.

    You are almost including the names of those who made the tea or swept the floor in your list of “scientists” so you can imagine the worth of those that got left out.

    The effect and reduction of measles in the UK is probably the best use of one single vaccine in UK modern history, certainly since the DTP.

    Pity they “sold out” and got MMR vaccines which gave a lot of trouble in their early years of use as shown by many researchers including Andrew Wakefield and of the withdrawals not on grounds of efficacity but of events. Ironically the move went to vaccines even less effective than the MMR before.

    Its big fault today lies in giving it too early when it leads to a higher number of events and a lesser degree of protection.

    Personally in the family I advise ALL vaccines taken as late as caution dictates and extends to single measles as the better than MMR both on grounds of efficacity and of safety.

    There is no research I know of that doesnt tell us the single measles is much better than the MMR.

    Following the money here is to get the the cheapest that money can buy and the excuse of convenience is just an excuse.

    Even with MMR the protection is very good but as USA experience tells us you are moving harm to younger and older people than when the illness was endemic.

    And to blame this normal spread of movement to times when it does become a worse illness is propaganda and government should press on to eliminate the illness as for smallpox so this embarrassing defect in the elimination of a vaccine preventable illness is as short as possible.

    I can see no other vaccine preventable illness where extinction is a real and obtainable possibility.

  4. John Fryer Chemist February 21, 2011 at 09:10 #

    Hi Sharon

    Regressive Autism

    A good start is the Wiki piece on Bernard Rimland which does not attribute regressive autism to him but by his prophetic early blame on mercury (not from vaccines as this was then not normally known except to the very few in the vaccine industry like Maurice Hilleman who got his chemistry mixed up).

    Mercury in the environment does of course give the standard autism from birth but those that don’t get too much mercury from their environment can go on to get it from vaccines and that’s where regression occurs.

    Also we know mercury does have this delayed action effect (Karen Wetterhahn). And affects boys more than girls.

    In this two sided piece in wiki it ends with total condemnation of Bernard “Autism’s worst enemy”

    When I tried to find out more the link was not there.

    As with my bit on Sally Clark when something happens the closing down of information is sudden and complete.

    Has the article gone because time proves it bunkum? Who knows?

  5. John Fryer Chemist February 21, 2011 at 09:14 #

    Hi Sharon

    At risk of offending people this link is both to whale to and to Wakefield but does mention regression.

    http://www.whale.to/a/pdf/bradstreet.pdf

    Havent read it fully yet but it does have a photo of poor quality of the gut problem.

    Just that it came up on my search.

    I will try to get regressive autism that may be more acceptable to those who go whatever at the mentions of these sites and names.

  6. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. February 21, 2011 at 09:22 #

    “Wakefield had a standard Medical Degree, not a doctorate. He thus is not entitled to call himself ‘Doctor’. Understand?”

    Actually, Julian, if Wakefield were to be working in the field of medicine in any capacity, the tradition is that he would be entitled to use the term ‘doctor’ to describe himself and what he did; he was not involved in medicine though… he was a surgeon, and surgeons do not use that title. A surgeon’s title is simply ‘Mr.’, ‘Mrs.’, ‘Ms.’, or ‘Miss’.

    So, right, but for more reasons than you might have thought. As you point out, he has no doctoral degree. For that reason, and for those I have given above, he is not – and indeed never was – ‘Dr. Wakefield’ (except for – at the most – one year, whilst undergoing his first year in practice after graduating M. B., B. S.).

  7. John Fryer Chemist February 21, 2011 at 09:29 #

    Hi Sharon

    Another attempt at that regressive autism

    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/archpedi;161/4/392

    Note these are surely independent of the Wakefield camp and from a quick read it seems his group are responsible for the section on regression.

    From an early study it does seem that people who believe parents stories of children being normal and then regressing are by the work so far in the public domain almost in sympathy with his group.

    I have not yet found others who believe in this regression.

    Is this less controversial than trying to blame vaccines?

    The above is just a review and rather like bloggers we have no original input unless as you we have unique experience.

    In your case regression is not a possibility but videos on the net do look convincing to me and do count as original.

    When you see children almost impossible to watch because their chatter is annoying and then see them months later as zombies the effect is profound.

    The terms are severe annoyance at chattering and zombie like but this is the anger I feel for an illness for me TOTALLY PREVENTABLE.

    You cannot do things to children and destroy them and get away with it.

    Sadly to date they have.

    Sally Clark life term (double) when her son died less than 6 hours after his mercury vaccine at exactly 8 weeks (the absolute earliest it is allowed in the UK) is DISGUSTING and the UK government apart from not apologising condemns 250 more every year in the great vaccine harm cover up.

    See File on 4 for last week obtainable from the BBC. Shaken Baby Syndrome and the destruction of Dr Marta Cohen et al.

  8. Chris February 21, 2011 at 17:56 #

    Mr. Fryer, thimerosal was never in the MMR, or any live measles vaccines. Since this is a discussion on Wakefield it is off topic.

    A reminder that the plural of anecdote is not data, and discussion of bad legal cases are also off topic. Referring to a study by the street the office is located is not standard, especially since PubMed does use it in the index. Citing whale.to is the height of silliness. It did not work for Meryl Dorey, and it will not work for you. It is the same as you making it all up out of thin air.

    All of your rambling has done is reveal the broken thought patterns of those who insist Wakefield is innocent.

    This is really true with the very confused “AWOL.” His idea of an “independent researcher” is Gary Null. He prefers the word of a supplement salesman with a mail-order PhD, and is mostly a credulous radio host who pushes all sorts of nonsense. He also almost died taking his own product because he was not diligent with quality control and overdosed on Vitamin D.

  9. AWOL February 21, 2011 at 23:54 #

    Chris your idea of “unbiased studies” is Elizabeth Miller DOH

    http://www.whale.to/m/all/miller.html

    Just before you sound the Pharma Mantra ..

    I`m Proud to follow WHALE..

  10. sharon February 22, 2011 at 00:19 #

    @JohnFryerChemist, Wow, I don’t know where to start. I have no question that many children regress. That is not a debated issue as far as I know. I was more interested in your idea that more regress than do not. But that’s ok. No need to post any further links.
    BTW I would never read any link to Whale. I can’t tolerate that kind of craziness.
    I am in Australia not the US, but I suspect we have a similar vax schedule here.

  11. Julian Frost February 22, 2011 at 07:02 #

    AWOL, John Scudamore (whale.to’s creator) is a nutjob. There is no other word for him. He believes that satanic ley lines burnt his backside, and that dolphins can manipulate gravity.
    There is a reason that Rich Scopie created Scopie’s Law. Scopie’s Law reads “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing whale.to as a credible resource loses you the argument immediately, and gets you laughed out of the forum.” That you’re proud to follow whale.to speaks volumes on your critical thinking ability.

    • Sullivan February 22, 2011 at 15:27 #

      Julian Frost,

      Just to add:

      The levitating dolphins and let lines are just the comical end of whale.to’s divorce from evidence-based information. The anti Semitic protocols of the elders of Zion are also hosted and defended there.

  12. John Fryer Chemist February 22, 2011 at 09:41 #

    Hi Shoaron

    Debate is useful and to be truthful I am learning all the time.

    Your view on the autism at birth for your child (not sure if a boy or girl) is as important as those who claim harm after MMR which is not easy to believe as how did they come through the DTP when it is more toxic and given much earlier.

    I did see a paper by Dr James Adams that looked at teeth and heavy metals which found children with too much mercury were autism at much greater rates.

    This does cost money but even if you don’t test you can keep the evidence properly packed up, protected and labelled.

    It turns out that with half the teeth-mercury that causes illness to people in Japan many years ago that there is today evidence that they are getting autism diagnoses.

    This is important as vaccines are not at issue but the daily rising amounts of mercury getting into the environment.

    I appreciate whale to has a bad reputation but solid evidence is good from wherever and I suspect one reason for the venom is that it does monitor well the relevant information.

    In this respect I note others like me are asking we put our heads together and find the cause for autism.

    It may be impossible to cure those damaged fully but surely it is also important to stop the next generation suffering.

  13. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. February 22, 2011 at 19:14 #

    AWOL/OQF: “I`m Proud to follow WHALE..”

    Yes, because you are an arse…

  14. AWOL February 22, 2011 at 21:17 #

    Woof,woof,

    Whale is where it happens guys,it blags everything you lot believe in .Must be your worst nightmare if you ever dare to go and peep into reality …

    http://www.whale.to/vaccines/autism.html

  15. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. February 22, 2011 at 23:29 #

    AWOL/OQF: “Whale is where it happens guys,it blags everything you lot believe in .Must be your worst nightmare if you ever dare to go and peep into reality …”

    You know, folks….

    This is what happens to you if you’re a psychotic person who refuses to take your meds. Somebody, please… commit this person under whatever his/her local mental health legislation is.

  16. julia February 23, 2011 at 00:09 #

    “…Chemist” : “Some science at least is not controversial. But then there is no money involved.”

    Non-controversial science makes plenty of $$– Think of nearly anything in the last 100 years in technology. Maybe you mean research? However, some science being researched is non-controversial; yet if there were no disagreements, would that not decrease research funding?

    I tried commenting on the least upsetting aspects that the chemist mentions. However,
    the idea that it is a better risk to expose kids to possible infection than possibly allow kids [under a screwed-up theory w no real evidence] to grow up autistic, is very insulting to me, an autistic person, and no doubt most sensible parents of autistic kids.

    How can i know when the thread here will attract people like John Fryer Chemist and co.? This can be helpful to me, because some days i actually want to read these jaw-clenching arguments other days i am not ready for it.

  17. Interverbal February 23, 2011 at 01:17 #

    Sorry David, but I am pretty sure you have been rolled by one of the Internet’s best trolls. When I read:

    “Whale is where it happens guys”.

    I became completely certain.
    And AWOL, you sir (or ma’am) are a genius!

  18. AWOL February 23, 2011 at 01:37 #

    David

    You look pale in your picture I just thought you were changing a skin..

    woof, ruff, bow-wow, yap, yelp, howl, bark, bawl,aroooo!!!arooo!

    Julia

    “[under a screwed-up theory w no real evidence] ”

    100% correct top of the class..why? because they wont do any studies involving vaccinated v`s un-vaccinated. so what is the fear thing Pharma is scared and running from with such a study??

    You dont need a M. Ed., C. P. S. E. to work that one out do you David??

  19. McD February 23, 2011 at 04:57 #

    @ AWOL. You clearly are not capable of reading and comprehending anything.

    I showed how knockoff websites had misattributed that factoid to Jarbrinks and Knapp when cutting and pasting from the Autism Society.

    The Autism Society actually claimed to have made an estimate from a GAO Report on Autism, 2007, although the GAO report is untraceable, and there are no figures supporting their estimate.

    And you are STILL defending the wrongful citing of Jarbrinks and Knapp 2001!

    Bloody amazing.

  20. Kev February 23, 2011 at 09:02 #

    Lets leave the personal insults at home please folks and concentrate on the topic at hand.

  21. AWOL February 23, 2011 at 22:27 #

    Mc D

    Hardly ,you quoated calculations ,I asked you for the calcs,you honestly came back and said you couldn`t do the calcs, I explained your right as it is study based on generalised figures..everbody use`s the study ,quotes from the study, pharma included ..

    If you can do a better generalised study lets see it..your a better guy than me my friend ,carry on..good luck ..

  22. John Fryer Chemist February 24, 2011 at 11:07 #

    Hi Julia

    You are of course correct.

    Legitimate money is made out of science.

    I was referring specifically to research where huge sums of money are paid for very little effort.

    And of expert witnesses who become millionaires to support the person with the biggest purse strings.

    Not so much making money as being parasites of society.

    Many professional workers in the UK prevent them at least morally if not legally from making money while employed on other jobs in their professional time.

    It happens of course and in the UK you can wait months or years for a person to see you and then pay privately and get the self same person the next day.

    Andrew Wakefield did get large sums and while it may have been OK it has now cost him dearly.

    But there are many examples in the other camp too and notably the pocketting of huge sums by Paol Thorsen and the inabiltiy to track him down.

    All in all the autism, vaccine, antibiotics, mercury work over the past ten years is distinctly partisan and much earlier work has been denied possibly to reduce or restrict financial harm to those who have not taken due care with products, services et al.

    One example that annoys me is nearly 200 000 pounds for a review and little effort and no original work that paved the way for very early vaccines with mercury in the UK which coincides in time with the huge rise in autism there.

    Today because of this the UK boasts a greater rate of autism than any other country.

    No class action against any issue let alone vaccine harm has ever succeeded and we see individual cases such as the Fletcher case taking 18 years to get a positive result and more than 90 per cent don’t even get to court or anywhere else and are effectively hidden from sight.

    Theo other phenomenon is the revolving door where industry captains get into top politics et al. The regulator for GMO for Europe actually being involved in a totally illegal move to industry and now GMO crops getting permits with no evidence of safety or danger.

    77 medicaments including vaccines have been red flagged here but the organisation of research is moving to the same type as in UK and USA so we can see demissions as for Pustzai and Wakefield even here.

    The AFSSAPS boss for a start has been demissioned allegedly for not finding harm from these drugs earlier. In fact he and the French scientists are at the forefront of proper research and proper accountability.

    HCV, Hep B and pneumonia vaccines have all been called into question here but nowhere else.

  23. John Fryer Chemist February 24, 2011 at 17:33 #

    OVERKILL with MMR?

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/combo-vaccines/mmr/faqs-mmr-hcp.htm

    This CDC report shows the dogged attitude to vaccines.

    It seems easy to sum up. If you have no proof of an injection you need to go through it all again.

    In one case they had proof of measles jabs but needed the MMR.

    Repeat vaccines when they admit possibly 98 per cent don’t need them.

    Injecting into muscle don’t worry.

    It seems if its possible to make an error doctors and nurses do so.

    Up to 25 per cent of one group get joint pains.

    I was trying to find about one person who did get arthritis and then leaukemia.

    Again it seems anecdotal.

    Whats wrong with doing titers to see if the vaccine is needed?

    Hidden reference to Andrew here – NO PROOF.

    But no mention of the fact that single vaccines are actually the BEST and the SAFEST.

  24. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. February 24, 2011 at 21:33 #

    AWOL/OQF…

    “David

    You look pale in your picture I just thought you were changing a skin..”

    Says someone who doesn’t understand much about anything…

    “woof, ruff, bow-wow, yap, yelp, howl, bark, bawl,arooooarooo!”

    Says someone who makes even John Best look intellectually gifted, even though he definitely is not.

    “Julia

    “[under a screwed-up theory w no real evidence] ””

    Poor AWOL/OQF…

    “100% correct top of the class..why? because they wont do any studies involving vaccinated v`s un-vaccinated. so what is the fear thing Pharma is scared and running from with such a study??”

    Can you actually prove that? You know… using actual evidence? No? Thought not.

    “You dont need a M. Ed., C. P. S. E. to work that one out do you David??”

    What’s my qualifications got to do with anything?
    Apart from that they mean I know more about some things than you’ll ever know, that is …

  25. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. February 24, 2011 at 21:35 #

    Interverbal: “Sorry David, but I am pretty sure you have been rolled by one of the Internet’s best trolls.”

    Ah? Who?

    Just out of curiosity…

    Otherwise, how’s things going?

    • Sullivan February 24, 2011 at 23:39 #

      Interverbal: “Sorry David, but I am pretty sure you have been rolled by one of the Internet’s best trolls.”

      Ah? Who?

      AWOL.

      Not sure if “best”, but troll is accurate.

  26. McD February 24, 2011 at 22:23 #

    Awol: “Hardly ,you quoated[sic] calculations ,I asked you for the calcs,you honestly came back and said you couldn`t do the calcs, I explained your[sic] right as it is study based on generalised figures..everbody[sic] use`s[sic] the study ,quotes from the study, pharma included ..”

    Sigh.

    There was nothing in Jarbrinks and Knapp to do calculations from, relevant to your claim. Unlike some people I don’t pull ‘calculations’ out of my butt.

    The only people who use the study to back your claim of a “2/3 savings from intervention” are people blindly copy-and-pasting from one or more sites who mistakenly attributed an estimate by the Autism Society to Jarbrinks and Knapp.

    Go to the Autism Society Facts and Stats page:
    http://www.autism-society.org/about-autism/aspergers-syndrome/facts-and-statistics.html

    Look at Factoid number 8:
    “Cost of lifelong care can be reduced by 2/3 with early diagnosis and intervention.8”

    Go to the references at the bottom, and count down to number eight (you will need 5 fingers on one hand, and three on the other to reach the correct number). You will find the Autism Society reference for their Factoid #8:
    “Autism Society estimate, using Government Accounting Office Report on Autism 2007.”

    It is an AUTISM SOCIETY ‘estimate’. They claim it themselves on their website. They didn’t use Jarbrinks and Knapp to make this estimate.

    They used Jarbrinks and Knapp to support an earlier point, #6: “$60 billion annual cost.6”. Obviously some idiot has made a mistake and attributed factoid #8 to Jarbrinks and Knapp as well.

    For the last time, Jarbrinks and Knapp looked at the cost of Autism in the UK. They did NOT have any actual data on savings due to any interventions, they made suggestions for future research (see my posts above).

    The reference the Autism Society actually claims to use for the “2/3 savings” claim appears not to exist (if it does, I would appreciate a link from someone). If it does exist, then as a GAO report, it must take its numbers either from government collected information, and/or published work.

    The raw data on which to base the sort of estimate the Autism Society are making – which includes the cost of delivering specific interventions, the life-time cost of care without intervention, and the life-time cost of care with intervention, averaged across all children who receive the interventions – that sort of raw data does not actually exist in a usable form at the moment.

    Which is why the Autism Society have made an ESTIMATE. But with no further information, such as what interventions they include in their calculations, and what sort of improvement they expect from any intervention, that ESTIMATE is totally useless.

  27. AWOL February 24, 2011 at 22:49 #

    David N.A.M.Ed C.,you say..

    “Can you actually prove that? You know… using actual evidence? No? Thought not.”

    I sure can googled it 682 results not one shows a pharma study..can you dis prove my claim??good luck

    Result 1 to 10 of 682 for pharma vaccinated non vaccinated studies(0.196 seconds)

    You say..
    “What’s my qualifications got to do with anything?”

    Apart from being The wannabee pompous “medical celebrity”–pontificating on your rounds about the pharmacological details of the medication…. i cant think?exactly tell me why do you print them??

  28. AWOL February 24, 2011 at 23:00 #

    “Which is why the Autism Society have made an ESTIMATE. But with no further information, such as what interventions they include in their calculations, and what sort of improvement they expect from any intervention, that ESTIMATE is totally useless.”

    Mc D

    I won`t sigh.I dont agree with your post ,the estimate that they have arrived at seemed to have been correct .If you base real life figures on costs of Autism circulating just now,the estimates seem to have been about right for that time.

    The rest of your comments have been gone into and dont support your arguement and are only an opinnion which we could sit here until ,the cows come home debating it…

  29. AWOL February 24, 2011 at 23:48 #

    In the true meaning of “troll” is this site not posting inflammatory, extraneous, grief ridden messages to parents of vaccine damaged children,so by replying to troll messages does that make you a troll? I dont think soooo

    • Sullivan February 24, 2011 at 23:59 #

      AWOL,

      you think many things which aren’t true.

      I note that you dodged the fact that you have shifted goalposts. The study was not a vaccinated/unvaccinated study.

      The thing is AWOL, you are not even an interesting troll.

  30. AWOL February 25, 2011 at 01:18 #

    “The thing is AWOL, you are not even an interesting troll.”

    Tut ,tut ,I thought you and I were friends,sadly your perogative but,I never consider myself interesting I consider myself a person who helps the autistic community to the best of my abilities ..

    “The study was not a vaccinated/unvaccinated study.”

    take it up with the writer not the messenger…reads pretty clear from where I am.

    Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated Children: Some Data are In and They are Disturbing
    By Maria D. Majewska

    While in western countries government officials and their corporate sponsors aggressively resist conducting the studies comparing health of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children , such studies have been, in fact, conducted in Africa. Below is the abstract of one such study from Guinea-Bissau, which shows doubling of mortality rate among infants vaccinated with a single dose of DTP vaccine, and more than quadrupling after the second and third dose. VAERS data also show high infant mortality in the US after DTP vaccination (much higher than from pertussis, diphteria and tetanus together, hence it is clear that DTP vaccine is harming more children than saving. In the EU, there is a relatively high incidence of pertussis (more than 20 000 per year), but total mortality due to this disease was 4 in 2009. At the same time, infant mortality index in western EU countries is 2 or 3 times lower than in the US. These data speak for themselves.

    Int J Epidemiol. 2004 Apr;33(2):374-80.

  31. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. February 26, 2011 at 00:49 #

    my pal Interverbal: “Not sure if ‘best’, but troll is accurate.”

    Ahhhh…. not sure if it’s that pillock, but – language stylistics apart – I’d venture to say that their intelligence levels are mutually low.

    some trolling tit-head: “Apart from being The wannabee pompous ‘medical celebrity’—pontificating on your rounds about the pharmacological details of the medication…. i cant think? exactly tell me why do you print them??”

    Firstly… not medical, but still up on psychopharmacology (psychologists have to know something about it); secondly, they get printed so that intelligent folk can see I have a basis for saying things I say about any topic that are serious. Thirdly, it’s pretty clear that you are an uneducated imbecile and will remain so till you die. May your non-education not last long.

  32. Chris February 26, 2011 at 01:23 #

    Absent With Own Lunch: “Int J Epidemiol. 2004 Apr;33(2):374-80.”

    Conclusions:

    In low-income countries with high mortality, DTP as the last vaccine received may be associated with slightly increased mortality. Since the pattern was inversed for BCG, the effect is unlikely to be due to higher-risk children having received vaccination. The role of DTP in high mortality areas needs to be clarified.

    You are cutting and pasting from AoA, and don’t even notice that they are comparing apples and oranges. Obviously it is beyond the copy and paste troll why Guinea-Bissau of 1984 to 1987 is not directly comparable to either the USA or UK.

  33. Chris February 26, 2011 at 02:17 #

    Maria D. Majewska:

    VAERS data also show high infant mortality in the US after DTP vaccination (much higher than from pertussis, diphteria and tetanus together, hence it is clear that DTP vaccine is harming more children than saving.

    1- The VAERS data cannot be used for this kind of statistic, it is raw data. It also only dates back to 1990.

    2- She claims that it is infant fatalities, yet does not link to real studies.

    3- She forgets that the reason kids don’t die from diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis is because of the vaccine.

  34. julia February 26, 2011 at 02:25 #

    “Autism does match exactly harm from mercury.”

    This statement from the chemist really puts into my mind the idea that the “chemist” is at best nothing more than a chemist with no knowledge of biological sciences. Could the “chemist” be a cargo-cult medical doctor with a high brain fever from the Dunning–Kruger effect?
    Merely scanning PubMed et alia for key words and cherry dropping them into one’s arguments is definitely cargo-cult-ISH. That Dunning–Kruger fever can cloud one’s perception and add an unshakable commitment to a particular set of beliefs, then total blindness is not far off.

    That is why in this post about “Irony and Fear” i definitely lean toward the fear that as an autistic adult I may be subjected to “treatments” from people like Wakefield and the chemist; who really know and say just enough that those who are not scientists themselves may believe can “help” me. If i have a bad panic attack and i am forcibly hospitalized, i pray i am far from these dubious types and their “treatments”.

  35. John Fryer Chemist February 27, 2011 at 13:37 #

    To Chris

    The VAERS underrepresents harm from vaccines by ten times. People seem to think that everything has to be pro or anti vaccines. The truth is that vaccinated earlier in the UK did lead to problems of health.

    For a start tetanus is not infectious so like many vaccines its early use when harm is more likely is stupid.

    Secondly the world does not vaccinated and the majoruty do not get any vaccines.

    Vaccinating to death little babies does make sense for those who dont want to take their chance with them.

    To Julia

    Not sure which chemist ever said the match was exact for autism and mercury.

    What is exact from Karen Wetterhahn chemist experience is that mercury hrm is delayed by many months and does take away your mind while you are living.

    The descent of Karen from a top scientist to a person who could not talk is awful.

  36. Chris February 27, 2011 at 19:19 #

    Mr. Fryer, we assume everything you write is made up out of thin air. But funny you should post one of your silly diatribes just as I became aware of this report. You should enjoy these bits:

    Since early 2008, France has been experiencing a measles outbreak with almost 5,000 notified cases as of 30 June 2010, including three measles-related deaths.

    and

    In France, a combined measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine has been recommended since 1986. The first dose is currently recommended at the age of 12 months and the second dose during the second year of life.

    and

    Measles has been a mandatory notifiable disease in France since mid-2005.

    Welcome to the 20th century France! It makes it much easier to control for a deadly disease when you actually know how many people have it! Especially when the French consulate is spreading measles in Boston.

  37. julia February 27, 2011 at 21:47 #

    “To Julia

    Not sure which chemist ever said the match was exact for autism and mercury.”

    This is where I saw that statement :
    John Fryer Chemist
    February 18th, 2011
    16:59:57

    Maybe I misunderstand you?
    I hope so, because it is NOT anywhere near an “exact match” for autism.
    When ever I see that kind of talk I get all pedantic on their ass./semi sarcastic

    I am a little more relaxed today, feeling less rant-ish.
    Sorry about the rudeness.

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