It must be true – Quincy Jones never lies after all.
Change comes to us all – for some of us it means radically rethinking what we once believed to be true and for some of us it might mean rethinking something that has brought us fame and adulation.
For those that don’t know him Citizen Cain is a blogger who challenged David Kirby’s interpretation of the numbers as they related to a rise/fall in the rate of autism. Kirby claimed that the rate was falling. Citizen Cain showed him why and where he was wrong.
And for the first time, Kirby responded.
Understandably, Kirby doesn’t seem interested in mucking around in the data with me too extensively, or in answering my detailed questions. But in an e-mail, he did address the key point, and concede that “if the total number of 3-5 year olds in the California DDS system has not declined by 2007, that would deal a severe blow to the autism-thimerosal hypothesis.†He also conceded that total cases among 3-5 year olds, not changes in the rate of increase is the right measure.
I suggest at this point you go and read the rest of Citizen Cain’s post from which I quote above. The links to the associated posts where he discusses his email correspondence with David Kirby are on that page too.
But lets reiterate. Kirby is not only admitting that if the _total cases_ of autism doesn’t fall then the jig is up, he’s also admitting that up until now his interpretation (and the source for that interpretation – one Rick Rollens) is wrong. Why? Because as he admits after Citizen Cain showed him his errors, whats important is the _total cases_ *not* changes in the rate.
After I read Citizen Cains latest post, I had a little niggle at the back of my head – something Kirby had said this year. So I checked my references and there it was. In an interview with the New York Times, Kirby said:
Because autism is usually diagnosed sometime between a child’s third and fourth birthdays and thimerosal was largely removed from childhood vaccines in 2001, the incidence of autism should fall this year.
*This* year. Not 2007. Why has Kirby added on 2 years to his interview? This interview with the NYT was conducted before Kirby’s admittance that it was the total case amount that was important not the rate change but thats the only real difference in the two statements. Now maybe I’m missing something but what are the extra two years for?
As far as I can see, when one takes the admittance Kirby issued to Citizen Cain and applies the same criteria to it then it should be the end of *this year* that we should see changes. Big changes.
Everything must change. We have 26 days before we know whether that change is something that I and a lot of others have to address or whether its something David Kirby and his followers have to address.
Left Brain Right Brain 
I hope there is a rapid decline before the EOH movie hits the theatres. Otherwise ticket sales will suffer or it will go straight to DVD. Assuming anyone bothers to make the movie.
Excellent Kev.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately too.
I linked to your post at my site.
I think a number of predictions can be made of what will be said in the future. Many of those things have already been used by some folks. A lot of these criticisms involve a failure to apply analysis in a consistant manner and/or directly analyze the data.
Anyway I put my thoughts here http://interverbal.blogspot.com
Ms Clark made a comment that I stupidly accidently deleted – I got it back though:
“Looks alot like the old shell game, keep the pea moving. Is it there? Nope! It’s over here, now.
A person could get sea sick from trying to follow the constantly changing rules of what causes autism.
Just thimerosal, thimerosal plus tuna, tuna plus coal fired power plants (the Texas study), dental amalgams plus thimerosal, just dental amalgams,—-bad genes plus any of the above—- measles virus from vaccines or wild measles virus plus any combination of the above—leaky gut—food allergies—lead and aluminum plus any of the above—- and all the permutations of the above. But for the fringey mercury parents and antivaxers it’s never autism that just IS entirely without a vaccine causation and a costly “biomed†cure.
If the numbers fall they will have a reason for why they fall, “they took out the thimerosal in 2001†If the number doesn’t fall they will have a different reason that maintains their position. Too bad Kirby got quoted in the NYT as saying that this is the year, it’s hard to contradict the newspaper of record when so many people have a copy of it.
The number will probably continue to rise because they aren’t up to 1 in 166 yet for Californians yet, but it might fall because the agency tightened the intake standards and the intakes in all the categories had slowed down.”
“If the numbers fall they will have a reason for why they fall, “they took out the thimerosal in 2001†If the number doesn’t fall they will have a different reason that maintains their position.”
I think Ms Clark’s observation is accurate indeed.
There was a US study on a set of Adventist type people all huddled together in one commune, whose fundamental belief was that God was going to end the world on a certain day (Day X, for want of a name for it), and that only they were going to be saved (a bit like Jezholme Jezreel’s thing in the UK the other century) whilst the rest of the world perished. This notion was publicised widely by these folk… interviews, TV and radio and so on.
Day X came and went, and whatever God exists (I’m an atheist) celebrated this Day X affair by doing a resounding fuck-all to the world.
In order to remove entirely the cognitive dissonance, tehse folk began to say that they had been heard by this God in prayer for the rest of the world and God had granted the world clemency.
In the same way as Ms Clark predicts this removal ploy, so do I.
There is nothing on earth that will shake these people’s conviction that mercury caused their kids’ autism and stole their perfectly normal, compliant little kids away.
And I find that sad (for the kids) and pathetic (of the parents).
That would be a fascinating day David – if you and Ms Clark are right (and you may well be) then thats the day David Kirby will become a heretic to them.
“the cognitive dissonance, tehse folk began”
Friggin’ typos….
*… the cognitive dissonance, these folk began …*
Kev: “That would be a fascinating day David – if you and Ms Clark are right (and you may well be) then thats the day David Kirby will become a heretic to them.”
Indeed it would be fascinating!
My guess is that, not only would Kirby become a serious heretic in their eyes, but that they’d start looking for other messiahs for their cause, who could concoct some sort of pseudoscientific enterprise and save their poor weak egos.
As my guru (Billy Connolly) would say…. “we wait with bated breath”….
You guys forget that people llike Kennedy and Kirby make it their business never to take the fall for any big thing. The parents will look like the alarmists and extremists here. The parents will take the blame and these talking heads will drift off to the next attention-whoring event and bask in the sun over there.
Interesting point, BC.
Trying to think of examples…. must be some, somewhere…. lemme cogitate.
They could have a reason to save Kirby as messiah. They could say he’d been tricked. This goes along with Prometheus’ recent posts about how they think everyone lies except people they want to believe (Boyd Hayley, Mark Blaxill, Lyn Redwood, the rest of the canon of sainted mercury parents and docs) they believe that they will never lie and that they can’t make mistakes.
It’s funny I recently found a letter written by Lujene’s husband (I sure hope big pharma made chemo drugs are working for him and that his cancer is under control) where he listed all the mainstream physicians and PhD’s who were on the side of the mercury parents…. Jeff Bradstreet, Mady Hornig, Jill James, Dr. Deth, Boyd Hayley, Stephanie Cave…
It was about 15 people I think. They are all totally fringe or near fringe by most people’s definitions. Mainstream doctors see other doctors as:
automatically quacky and fringe if they recommend chelation for anything but acute heavy metal poisoning,
they are automatically quacky and fringe if they are heavily into promoting dietary supplements that they themselves profit from,
they are pretty close to quacky and fringe if they have a fan base, a website to promote themselves and charge huge fees.
See quackwatch.org if you want a sense of the markers for quackishness are.
But all of those on Dr. Clark’s list had MDs and PhD’s so I guess they all are “mainstream” compared to unlicensed witchdoctors.
Anyway, they are “better than mainstream”. They are beloved heroes, and that’s more important that being scientific to the mercury parents.
These MD’s and PhDs make great movie characters, they “emote” so well.
I don’t think I’d look at this as a gift horse. I don’t put all my stock in one guy who writes a book, but if you want to…
My son wasn’t Dxed (by Penn, the major children’s hospital in Philadelphia) until he was 10. He’s 13. His ped STILL says he has ADD, not Asperger’s. @@ Another ped that worked with him (and fortunately left for another practice) told me he was mentally retarded and had never given him one test. Of course, he is Not MR…..
These are supposedly cutting edge pediatricians in a fairly well off suburban area outside of Philly. I haven’t even figured in rural Dr. Stoltzfus, who would probably miss even the ADD kids….or ignore them because he doesn’t believe in ADD….it’s just a kid with energy, doncha know?!
There are a lot of uneducated doctors as far as the subject of autism is concerned, even now. I had my son to DuPont and they said he had “encephalopathy” just so the insurance would pay for the eval, because they didn’t know what he had. And THAT eval was done by the Director of Developmental Pediatrics. (Penn knew the minute they saw him, BTW.)
There are a lot of cheap doctors, too. Doctors who won’t buy new meds if they still have the old unused – they leave old meds on their shelves for ages. I had an ob-gyn once give me samples of birth control pills which had been expired for two years, lol. Happens ALL the time.
If the kids get away with being undiagnosed until they hit school age, they don’t get factored in. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be part of those figures – but those figures you mention won’t include those kids. You need to include the kids with poor medical care into the figures. They still had to get the vaccines, too……
The majority of this country is rural, and there are a lot of poor and ignorant both in and out of the cities. These people – if they even GO to a doctor – don’t necessarily have access to good medical care – good doctors who would Know an autistic person if he/she saw one. Odds are their schools aren’t much better. The schools have enough problems with identifying their hind end from a hole in the ground. They aren’t reliable, even if they Do have Child Find.
So – How do you factor in the incompetents into your theories? I’ve come across too many incompetents during the last 13 years to say they are the Exception….
Kev wrote:
“That would be a fascinating day David – if you and Ms Clark are right (and you may well be) then thats the day David Kirby will become a heretic to them”.
– Before I go any further, what is YOUR definition of heretic?
-Sue M.
Yeah! What about all of the kids that suffer from thimerosal induced autism that takes ten years to diagnose? What about them? That must account for, what? More than half? So let’s count on a 50% drop off by the end of the year.
– Before I go any further, what is YOUR definition of heretic?
Sequel to The Exorcist
“The majority of this country is rural, and there are a lot of poor and ignorant both in and out of the cities. These people – if they even GO to a doctor – don’t necessarily have access to good medical care – good doctors who would Know an autistic person if he/she saw one.”
This is way over the top. With the availability of the internet, cable, and satelite TV, information is more readily available today than ever before. Unless you’re prepared to argue that this fraction of the population who are poor and don’t have access to any of these things is increasing at an appreciable rate, then these poor and ignorant people aren’t impacting the national autism rates up or down.
My experience with doctors over the last 6 years is that they have their finger on the diagnosis trigger and are prepared to pull it at a moment’s notice. It seems to me that they forget that children develop at different rates and that some are late bloomers. Although from the vantage point of the docs I can see why they’re handing out diagnoses so readily – what’s the problem if a kid is a late bloomer and enters the birth-to-3 program? So they get speech and OT for a couple of years and then age out and get into mainstream school? I fail to see the problem.
Regarding the competence of the majority of doctors, it seems to me that the word ‘incompetent’ is as much a judgement call as is the word ‘jerk’. Everyone’s got a horror story I’m sure, but there are some pretty good people out there.
clone3g, will PSHoffman’s character try to interact with his student like in 25th hour?
clone and bartholomew
Sizemore has already been cast. He’s in his trailer right now. If you’re going to make casting changes then we need to take a meeting. BTW, he’s asking for (S)-N,a-Dimethylbenzene-ethanamine.
hollywoodjaded
yer killin’ me! Somewhere Heidi Fleiss peeks through her window blinds to see if it’s safe to go outside.
“My son wasn’t Dxed (by Penn, the major children’s hospital in Philadelphia) until he was 10. He’s 13. His ped STILL says he has ADD, not Asperger’s. @@”
Moi: That sounds incredibly familiar.
Both the location and the ADD-focused doctor…
I suspect the odds are incredibly against this, but would said doctor’s name be Wilkerson or something similar?
Kirby added 2 years because many physicians had the old vaccines containing thimerosal on their shelves as late as 2004. There are also a few vaccines that still contain thimerosal as of September 13, 2005.
Ms. Clark said,
See quackwatch.org if you want a sense of the markers for quackishness are.
Quackwatch.com has about as much creditability as the whale.to!
twenty six (26) drug companies began, and originally funded, the current “quackbuster,” operation. For several years the “quackbusters,” were successful. Today, the “quackbusters,” those you see, are a motley lot, led, they would have you believe, by failed MD Stephen Barrett through his boring, and repetitive, “quackwatch.com” website. “Quackwatch. com” is the quackbuster’s “bible.” On that site, and their dubious “web-ring” you’ll find a condemnation of anything, and everything, that competes with the use of drugs, drugs, and more drugs.
Run out of a New York ad agency, the “quackbusters,” are one of Big Pharma’s tools, in the war between “health and medicine.”
And exactly how many are required for children UNDER the age of 5? There is even a thimerosal free version of the flu vaccine (the inhaled Flumist). The Td vaccine is only for older kids (and adults). And you do understand that 0.01% means a concentration of 1/10000 th? (the % or “percent” means “per 100”, or 1/100… so you have to take the .01, which is 1/100 and divide it by 100 AGAIN… hence, the 1/10000)
Basically, compared to those that had it in 2001… those are a nonissue.
So compared to the toddlers who got vaccines between 1999 and 2003, the amount they get is now much much smaller. The autism rates should be declining rapidly! Just like they did in Denmark when they removed thimerosal in 1990… oh, wait — the rate of austism still increased:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/3/604
So what we are predicting is that the number will not change between now and 2007.
HN, this Danish study?
The important thing in evaluating this study is that exposure in the Danish population to Thimerosal varied considerably from that in the US. Danish children received 75 micrograms of mercury in their first 9 weeks and then another 50 micrograms at 10 months. By comparison, children in the US received 187.5 micrograms of mercury by the age of 6 months, nearly 2 1/2 times as much mercury as the Danish children.Besides, Danish autism rates are six in 10,000, where in the US it is one in 167. A case in point is the large-scale Danish study, published in Journal of the American Medical Society (JAMA) in September 2003, which found no link between thimerosal and autism. The study is routinely cited as proof that the preservative is safe in vaccines. Soon after its publication, however, it was revealed that JAMA failed to disclose that the study’s authors work for Denmark’s largest maker and distributor of childhood vaccines-another company that could face lawsuits over thimerosal.
Or was it the other Danish study?
Another study that the IOM relied on was the Madsen study. Madsen et al., once again examined virtually the same population, Danish children, Danish children who received significantly less than they. Let us consider the conflicts of interest in the Madsenstudy.First of all, two of Madsen’s co-authors are employed by the same Staten Serum Institute. The study, like Hviid, added outpatient cases into the number of cases of autism after 1995, a methodological flaw. The authors acknowledged that this addition might have exaggerated the incidence of autism after the removalof autism. The IOM acknowledged this but yet used the data anyway.
Ok HN, last chance …was it this Danish study?
Another study that the IOM cited, the Stehr-Green study, examined the Danish population again, along with the Swedish population. The problems with the Danish data need not be repeated, but with regard to Sweden, the children there received even less thimerosal than children in Denmark, receiving only 75 micrograms by 2 years of age versus children in the US receiving 187.5 micrograms by 6 months of age.Furthermore, the authors included only inpatient autism diagnoses in the Swedish population.
HN said,
There is even a thimerosal free version of the flu vaccine (the inhaled Flumist).
Tuesday, December 09, 2003
Tonight on the news the expert from the Health Sciences University explained how the FluMist has a live virus that lives in the host for 21 days, and viral shedding spreads this living virus in the environment around the people who have taken it. He said it is dangerous to anyone at varieties of risks, compromised immune systems, infants and children, elderly, the usual.
We went from worse to bad.
First off… where are those quotes from? For all we know you made them up on the spot. But if you give the references it is better to check them.
The “conflicts of interest” sound like the usual from anti-vax sites. The sames ones that don’t care that the Geiers also have conflicts of interest.
The Quackwatch.org site actually has verifiable references, unlike the whale.to site (which often has misinterpreted and OUTdated references). Please list ONE quackwatch.org site that is deliberately misleading, including the misleading references. Please.
Actually about “Flumist” (oh, you listed a reference that is TWO years old!… when it was FIRST introduced), this came out TODAY!!!:
http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousDisease/Vaccines/tb/2276
Now, please, add up the entire uptake of thimerosal in a child born in 2003 and compare it to a child born in 1999 in the USA. Since you know all about the Danish numbers, that should be a cinch for you to find. Please be sure to include all references.
You sent me to this more recent article about Flumist.
Well HN, …one internet search later I find that the author of this review (Dr. Robert Jasmer) is mired in controversy over some of his travel that was paid for by Glaxo SmithKline.
Moi and Bartholemew; I think you are both right. I’ve encountered doctors who are prepared to diagnose children with autism very quickly; I’ve also encountered doctors who seem not to be able to see autism when the child presents with every ‘textbook’ manifestation. There are also some very good doctors out there. The thing about doctors is that they are human beings.
_”irby added 2 years because many physicians had the old vaccines containing thimerosal on their shelves as late as 2004. There are also a few vaccines that still contain thimerosal as of September 13, 2005.”_
There’s a few problems with that.
Firstly, are you saying Kirby didn’t know this before he gave his NYT interview in June of this year? I find that very unlikely.
Secondly, one of the main points that the anti-thiomersal crowd like to bring up is that it is the toxic tipping point that is important, not just a one off vaccine shot. This fallback onto flu vaccine (a one off shot) and old stock (which must by now be in tiny supply) is a bit desperate.
Persoanlly, I have quite a lot of time for the ‘tipping point’ argument. I can see how it would theoretically be possible. I don’t see how a one off shot could have close to the same level of impact.
Personally, I think we’ll see an increasinlg amount of this backtracking and moving of the goalposts as it becomes more and more apparent that there’s no link. I also see no reason not to hold Kirby to his NYT stated position.
HN wrote:
“The autism rates should be declining rapidly! Just like they did in Denmark when they removed thimerosal in 1990… oh, wait—- the rate of austism still increased”.
– HN, why is it that you continue to post bogus studies out of Denmark? Could it be that is all the evidence that you have — Bogus epidemiological studies. What’s up with that? Even some on your side have indicated that the Denmark studies are shady.
You all want to push aside all of the “mercury parents” studies. That’s ok. We keep giving you more. You keep saying it’s invalid because… the authors are DAN! doctors, Blaxill’s only got his MBA, The Geiers are losers, Hornig had an autistic child, Buttar wants to sell more thigh cream, Burbacher didn’t say definitely that the mercury causes autism (of course he left the door wide open). You have an answer for everything but as you know the evidence is building and eventually even you will get it. Until that time, please refrain from parading out bogus studies out of Denmark.
-Sue M.
How did the subject switch to the saftey of Flumist? Since it doesn’t contain thimerosal can’t we safely assume that it has the GR seal of approval?
Great analysis of the Danish studies, btw. Your words 777? No, I didn’t think so. Can you make any arguments of your own or will you continue to make attempts to discredit sources and point out conflicts of interest? Or will you tug at random threads and run with them.
If you prefer to C&P sections of articles, at least reference the source and BOLD the relevant parts so we won’t have to guess at your point. Otherwise it’s like saying air travel is unsafe becasue you found a flaw in Bernoulli’s equation.
The fact that a group of children received substantially less thimerosal yet autism rates didn’t decline means nothing to you. To you, and other supporters of the mercury hypothesis, any amount is unsafe so rates won’t drop until every last trace is removed. Do I have that right? Maybe if it falls below background levels autism will begin to decline. Who was it that had the MMR analysed for mercury and reported a trace? Oh yeah, that explains it.
Kev said:Personally, I think we’ll see an increasinlg amount of this backtracking and moving of the goalposts as it becomes more and more apparent that there’s no link.
“Moving of the Goalposts” Best metaphor yet. Dust off those post hole diggers folks but watch for those old post holes. Don’t worry, they’ll be indelibly marked.
Note to Kev, why don’t you read Kirby’s book Evidence of Harm? If you are going to talk about the guy and what he has/has not said why don’t you actually read up on what the guy has written about? Seems logical.
-Sue M.
Sue – we keep saying its invalid not because of any of the reasons you state but because those studies are deeply flawed and/or have no relation to a causal relationship bettwen thiomersal and autism.
I’m interested (as I don’t know) – which scientists not affiliated with the thiomersal/autism link think that the Danish studies are deeply flawed enough to be irrelevant? No one is saying they’re not flawed as all studies are flawed to a certain degree but the Geiers for example prodced work so fundementally flawed that their study could be entirely disregarded – they drew official rebukes! Hornig produced a study that depends on mice showing the same _behaviour_ as people (when was the last time your child chewed through the skull of a person Sue?) and Buttar has refused to do any science on TD DMPS. He’s also instigated a new protocol which includes a chelator that is heavily implicated in the death of a child when nobody knows exactly what role that chelator played.
You can keep ’em coming as long as you like but sooner or later you’re going to need to produce a paper that meets scientific criteria. You’re also going to have to deal with the fact that the amount of autistic 3-5 year olds is unlikely to go down in the next couple of weeks and according your chief source of information that means we can pretty much disregard the thiomersal connection.
Oh and I missed your earlier question – heretic: meaning someone who no longer believes in the prevailing view of an organisation.
_”Note to Kev, why don’t you read Kirby’s book Evidence of Harm? If you are going to talk about the guy and what he has/has not said why don’t you actually read up on what the guy has written about? Seems logical.”_
As I’ve said before Sue, I have read large parts of it, not all in one sitting and over a period of months but a goodish proportion of it.
Besides, the book is merely a facet of the whole thing – all the evidence is in the public domain. It doesn’t matter where its said as long as it can be accessed.
Lastly, I’m reporting on a discussion someone else is having with him and am adding my own points about a quote that is in the NYT – nothing to do with EoH.
HN, the three Danish studies were the Hviid study (There exists a major conflict of interest of with its principal author. Dr. Hviid works for the Danish Epidemiology Science Center, which is housed at the Staten Serum Institute, the government-owned Danish vaccine manufacturer), and the Madsen study, and last was the Stehr-Green study. You can look them up. They are not only flawed but reak of impropriety.
Kev, I guess I should have said “in my opinion” when I suggested some of the reasons why Mr. Kirby may have added 2 years. I really don’t know his reason or as you put it “moving the goalposts”. I do know that some of the vaccines my child received in 2001 were produced in 1997. I agree that “the old supply” is probably very tiny at this point, however “the old supply was probably still being administered up until 2 years ago.
I think the flu shot can play a part also. What about the way the government and the media in the US have played up the flu shot and lied about the amount of flu deaths in the last 2 years? Their are public service announcements on the TV and radio everyday telling parents that children should get the flu shot because 36,000 people will die from influenza this year. That’s a lie! That number is off by more than 35,000 deaths. They need to stop pushing the flu shot. Don’t give children the flu shot.
You are going into a stall, and starting to have some wing tip flutter (and despite appearences you don’t even have canards!). Level out and fly straight for a while, but watch out for that flock of geese that about to get into your flightpath. Be a good plane, and provide actual references for your assertions. You put stuff in italics and quotes without saying where it is from and who you are quoting.
Also, most kids do not get a flu shot, so it is really a non-issue (my oldest teenager does, but he has a genetic heart condition and weighs over 200 pounds). Though you might want to argue with these guys:
http://www.familiesfightingflu.com/
So what remains is the Td, which really only given to adults.
Now try answering some questions:
1) How much total thimerosal did a child born in 1999 receive by the time they were three years old (that would have been in 2002)?
2) How much total thimerosal did a child born in 2002 receive by this year (when they turn three years old, that is because 2005-2002 = 3 )?
3) Which vaccine on the CURRENT pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the actual disease?
Please include all references.
Earlier 777 said, “Kirby added 2 years because many physicians had the old vaccines containing thimerosal on their shelves as late as 2004. There are also a few vaccines that still contain thimerosal as of September 13, 2005.”
and then just said, “That was my opinion, my hypothesis. I was not speaking for Mr. Kirby.”
Did someone say moving goalposts?
Slow day at the university Bart?
777 said, “I can always rely on you to spell check for me Bart.”
The spelling shennanigans is just for fun. But I do read your posts and I admit they provide a much needed service: humor.
You’re not going to challenge me to a Boyd/Kirby/Imus debate again, are you?
Re: school – the school of hard knocks is never slow. Just another day.
Bart,
The mercury lot are always moving the goalposts. This is nothing new. What can we expect from people who, underneath everything, know that their ideas are entirely without foundation?
Certainly not any sort of message saying, “ah yes… we were indeed mistaken… where do we go from here?”.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for that. It won’t come.
kirby was becoming an expert in vaccine production and distribution back in 2004. http://onibasu.com/archives/am/121403.html
http://onibasu.com/archives/am/87722.html
david kirby being described as a acting in conjunction as a lobbyist with the mercury parents, not as a neutral observer.
here’s sally bernard in 2001 looking for a bottle of thiomersal preserved vaccine, because they were hard to find… for the hornig study probably — since she was so close with hornig at that point.
http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html—-
onibasu is cool because you can learn that sallie bernard used to be sally bernard
you can read vintage john best jr
you can read that lyn redwood started autism-mercury in the year 2000 and she started taking chelation directions from dr. grig of doctors data laboratories.
some really cool stuff happened on april fools day on y2k, on a-m. so does anyone know why sally bernard the business woman became sallie bernard about the time she wrote her magnum opus, *autism aint nothin but a novel form of mercury poisoning*
was she trying to keep her activities as spreader of conspiracy theories and part time biochem expert and agitator an outside cause of her son’s autism , from her activities as a business woman? anyone know what name is on her drivers license? ok, so no one is likely to have seen that, but what is her real name? seems like it gets to credibilty doesn’t it?
Kev wrote:
“Besides, the book is merely a facet of the whole thing – all the evidence is in the public domain. It doesn’t matter where its said as long as it can be accessed”.
– I completely agree, Kev. the problem is that I doubt that you have read up on everything that is covered in the book. The book would help you to put it in the time frame that it all happened, what the response was from the “other side”, etc. You may be able to better understand the mercury parents arguments. Basically, it couldn’t hurt. I find it interesting that someone who continues to want to bring up Kirby’s name as somehow less than accurate would not want to read his book. As for how much of it you actually have read… I doubt you read much (remember you thought that Blaxill was a doctor).
By the way, this will be my last post here (for a while). Too time consuming and too childish. Trust me, it is NOT because you have persuaded me in any stretch of the imagination (I imagine that I haven’t persuaded you either). Fine. I have much better things to focus on. If nothing else, it seems these blog entries will be much shorter without me here.
-Sue M.
Well Sue, as always, so sad to see you go. I hate to see you leave empty handed so “Like a game show contestant with a parting gift” I’d like to leave you with a few thoughts:
1) What, if anything, would it take to convince you that autism is not mercury poisoning?
2) You seem to think that Kevin and others haven’t taken the time to read all of the available literature on the subject of mercury and autism. I think you may be surprised to learn otherwise.
3) I’d like to suggest that you read some of the much more extensive literature on autism that doesn’t deal with mercury toxicity, if only for the sake of balance.
4) I hope the EoH movie is everything you hope it will be, assuming it is ever filmed. Please check back in a few years after the autism rates have dropped off.
I doubt I’ve read everything thats covered in the book too Sue and yes, as my confusion over Blaxills role shows, its sometimes very disjointed.
But thats really not the point. The point of this thread is that Kirby has made a number of public statemetns regarding the role of thiomersal in autism – and indeed based a whole book around the subject and that his own self-imposed time limit is about 3 weeks away from expiring.
You don’t need to read the book to understand basic maths and what it means for his argument. 1 + 1 = 2. Right?
SueM: “Trust me, it is NOT because you have persuaded me in any stretch of the imagination (I imagine that I haven’t persuaded you either)”
Clearly, then, Sue hasn’t been here to engage in debate…. more likely her mission has been to try and convert us to her way of thinking. She can’t handle that others have different beliefs from hers, and she has to belittle us for it.
Sad woman, really… no ability to take on board anyone else’s argument without breaking out in a rash.
Kev: “You can keep ‘em coming as long as you like but sooner or later you’re going to need to produce a paper that meets scientific criteria.”
They don’t have one. Sue isn’t interested in seeing one anyhow. Her idea: “fuck research, let’s get the film out!”
Says a lot, really.
You know, if you claim that a study done by the Staten Serens Institute is flawed simply by virtue of that fact, then you’re saying there can never be a valid study out of Denmark, given that Staten Serens is not only not liable if such a study would show any harm, but that they, by nature of their position, are the ones legally required to do such studies in Denmark.
So, uh, why’s it flawed for them to do a study, precisely? Because you don’t like the results, or…?
This is way over the top. With the availability of the internet, cable, and satelite TV, information is more readily available today than ever before. Unless you’re prepared to argue that this fraction of the population who are poor and don’t have access to any of these things is increasing at an appreciable rate, then these poor and ignorant people aren’t impacting the national autism rates up or down.
I wish it were over the top. It’s typical. You’d think most people have access to the web. Of course, there’s the library, but most don’t do that.
I know many who don’t have the internet in their homes. I have heard countless teachers complain abo0ut how many of the parents don’t even go to their kids’ school conferences – and these are the parents who NEED to go.
For example: It takes 6+ hours to get from Philly to Pittsburgh. An hour east of Philly, you get Amish country. Between there and maybe (MAYBE) an hour west of Pittsburgh, you have farmers and the coal regions (go north, there’s NOTHING.), with an occasional town. These are the people I’m talking about. This is the MAJORITY of PA. Heck, it’s the majority of the US.
CA is nothing like PA. Or like most other states, for that matter. It’s fairly more progressive in just about everything. If you were comparing CA to NY or MA, maybe. PA needs to be compared to something like Illinois or North Carolina…..
I suspect the odds are incredibly against this, but would said doctor’s name be Wilkerson or something similar?
Nope.
Sorry, I would have liked to have been able to say there’s not just one idiot doctor in the area….
The book “Evidence of Kirby trying to manipulate your emotions agregiously” is so full of emotional ploys, and so thin on fact. I found in the autism mercury archives where whoever it was that was the webmistress of the Eoharm website… I forgot her name… said the website would have ALL the important documents referred to in the book on it for viewing. Basically, the last time I looked NONE of the documentation is there. hmmmm.
No facts just self-righteous indignation and finger pointing and absolving self of misplaced guilt for producing a defective child. I’m sorry. I never got into that state of “It’s all my fault. I picked the wrong mate and my genes are bad and now my child will suffer.” , and believe me, most autistic kids don’t have the physical problems my kid has.
My kid went through about 13 medium dangerous to very seriously dangerous surgeries up to age 13 (not one surgery a year, though, they were clustered). Plus my kid has ASD issues and an uneven intellectual abilities.
Sorry, sometimes I just want to scream at the mercury parents “deal!” Everyone carries genes for autism, making a kid is a roll of the genetic dice – which is why we need to support kids with genetic problems it could happen to anyone who has kids.
The problem comes in when parents think they are special and they contracted with God or fate to have a perfect or near perfect life. They decided at age 10 that they’d get married and 2.3 perfect kids an upscale house in an upscale neighborhood and a perfect marriage.
You can see that whole “perfect kid” yuppie mentiality that built in the early 90’s and how it helped to produce people like Sally Bernard and Lyn Redwood and Mark Blaxill. They are “not my kid!” type parents. Nothing less than above normal is good enough. They just happen to come across this mercury idea and went psycho with it. Helps to have loads and loads of money to enforce your “novel form” of locked-in syndrome on the world.
I think it was HN who described his or her child having a heart problem. Why do they build so many children’s hospitals if there aren’t lots of kids with problems. And those children’s hospitals were not all built in the mid nineties to deal with the effects of thimerosal. (rolls eyes)
There’s a new paper I just got on the placebo effect in treating autism. I can’t wait to read it. I have to get to class now though.
There are also some very good doctors out there. The thing about doctors is that they are human beings.
Human beings or not, anyone else who does a job – any kind of job – and would miss something as MAJOR as that would be fired at minimum. It’s their JOB to know this stuff.
Doctors who repeatedly do either (over- or mis-diagnose) should lose their licenses.
“…some people want desperately to believe something. It feels good to belong to a group. It feels good to absolve oneself of guilt for anything (in this case the large role genetics plays in autism). It feels good to be confident and proud. Using reason and sound science isn’t going to convince a theory-believer when these feelings get tangled up in the process.â€
Damn, Bart. I was almost able to sit this thread out. There’s a lot of us who aren’t trying to “believe†something so much as we are trying to “know†something. The problem is none of us — and I mean none of us on any “side†of this debate/discussion — knows a whole lot right now. There’s just too much research that needs to be done before any of us “knows.†None of the “sound science†tells the whole story.
That being said, I agree wholeheartedly with you that genetics plays a large role. Unless genetics sets the table, environmental insults aren’t going to do their voodoo. I don’t fell guilty about my genes causing or contributing to my son’s ASD. That’s something I had no control over, nor did I have any foreknowledge of a genetic predisposition. Moreover, I’m fully prepared to accept the probability that some percentage of ASD exists, and would exists, in the absence of mercury exposure.
The answers we need are to the questions of whether environmental insults (including, but not limited to, mercury) can trigger diagnosable ASD in a genetically susceptible child, whether environmental insults can aggravate preexisting ASD to the point of dramatically increasing the related dysfunctional aspects, and whether the biomedical interventions some of us practice have a real efficacy. I suspect we’ll get a lot of different answers, because I doubt there is just one thing called autism.