It must be true – Quincy Jones never lies after all.
Change comes to us all – for some of us it means radically rethinking what we once believed to be true and for some of us it might mean rethinking something that has brought us fame and adulation.
For those that don’t know him Citizen Cain is a blogger who challenged David Kirby’s interpretation of the numbers as they related to a rise/fall in the rate of autism. Kirby claimed that the rate was falling. Citizen Cain showed him why and where he was wrong.
And for the first time, Kirby responded.
Understandably, Kirby doesn’t seem interested in mucking around in the data with me too extensively, or in answering my detailed questions. But in an e-mail, he did address the key point, and concede that “if the total number of 3-5 year olds in the California DDS system has not declined by 2007, that would deal a severe blow to the autism-thimerosal hypothesis.†He also conceded that total cases among 3-5 year olds, not changes in the rate of increase is the right measure.
I suggest at this point you go and read the rest of Citizen Cain’s post from which I quote above. The links to the associated posts where he discusses his email correspondence with David Kirby are on that page too.
But lets reiterate. Kirby is not only admitting that if the _total cases_ of autism doesn’t fall then the jig is up, he’s also admitting that up until now his interpretation (and the source for that interpretation – one Rick Rollens) is wrong. Why? Because as he admits after Citizen Cain showed him his errors, whats important is the _total cases_ *not* changes in the rate.
After I read Citizen Cains latest post, I had a little niggle at the back of my head – something Kirby had said this year. So I checked my references and there it was. In an interview with the New York Times, Kirby said:
Because autism is usually diagnosed sometime between a child’s third and fourth birthdays and thimerosal was largely removed from childhood vaccines in 2001, the incidence of autism should fall this year.
*This* year. Not 2007. Why has Kirby added on 2 years to his interview? This interview with the NYT was conducted before Kirby’s admittance that it was the total case amount that was important not the rate change but thats the only real difference in the two statements. Now maybe I’m missing something but what are the extra two years for?
As far as I can see, when one takes the admittance Kirby issued to Citizen Cain and applies the same criteria to it then it should be the end of *this year* that we should see changes. Big changes.
Everything must change. We have 26 days before we know whether that change is something that I and a lot of others have to address or whether its something David Kirby and his followers have to address.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Oops. I mean that I don’t “feel” guilty.
HN said,
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner I was distracted by a man with a lot of hats when you posted your questions to me.
You are going into a stall, and starting to have some wing tip flutter (and despite appearences you don’t even have canards!). Level out and fly straight for a while, but watch out for that flock of geese that about to get into your flightpath. Be a good plane, and provide actual references for your assertions. You put stuff in italics and quotes without saying where it is from and who you are quoting.
Funny HN! Not! Why does it matter where the quotes are from? Can’t you go look up the studies and determine whether or not they’re accurate. The quotes come from Evelyn Pringle(Evelyn Pringle is a columnist for Independent Media TV and an investigative journalist focused on exposing government corruption). It shouldn’t matter who said it, what matters is whether or not it’s accurate. If I told you the quotes were from the head of the IOM, you wouldn’t think twice about their accuracy, but If I said they were quotes from Dr. Buttar or Dr. Wakefield you would just write them off as quotes from quacks. You’re the quack! Or was it …Your the quack! Remember? Just kidding!
Now that you know who the quotes are from you can get to work ripping her (Evelyn Pringle) apart!
1) How much total thimerosal did a child born in 1999 receive by the time they were three years old (that would have been in 2002)?
It was different for each child. Some children received the flu shot and some didn’t. My child received 2 flu shots as recommended by the pediatrician. It also depends on who the manufacturer was of the vaccine that each child received. The DTAP and the HIB were made by several different pharmaceutical companies and some contained thimerosal and some didn’t. Some contained more than others, so you can’t give a blanket number for all children.
2) How much total thimerosal did a child born in 2002 receive by this year (when they turn three years old, that is because 2005-2002 = 3 )?
Refer to the answer to question number one.
3) Which vaccine on the CURRENT pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the actual disease?
All of them!
You say, most kids do not get a flu shot, so it is really a non-issue. Why does the FDA, and the CDC recommend it for young children? And on the CDC link there is that lie they keep putting out: about 36,000 people die from flu each year. Flat out lie!
Sotek said,
given that Staten Serens is not only not liable if such a study would show any harm, but that they, by nature of their position, are the ones legally required to do such studies in Denmark.
If that is true, then yes, I would say that any study out of Denmark isn’t valid. If the Danish Epidemiology Science Center is housed at the Staten Serens Institute and is a government-owned Danish vaccine manufacturer, how can a study from there be valid?
If vaccinations really work, those vaccinated will be immune to the disease, so what does it matter if some people choose to go unvaccinated? What do the vaccinated have to worry about? Aren’t they protected? Shouldn’t people have the choice whether or not to have their children vaccinated–a choice based on full disclosure of risks and benefits?
Wade, you’ll get little-to-no argument from anyone around here with your post regarding what is not known. I’ve come across only a small fringe group of people who are absolutist enough to think they know enough about the brain, or let’s get real here – even basic human metabolism, to make a black and white statement about autism. Unfortunately, that small fringe group is quite vocal and very well financed.
Regarding a feeling of blame, I’ve tried my best to rationalize why someone would put their child in a sauna, pressure vessels, and make them eat algae – all disparate methods targeting distinct pathways (supposedly). In other words, a shotgun approach is being used to solve something that is seen as able to be solved. I cannot believe that the power of guilt is absent in this mad dash toward normalcy.
At the end of the day, if your child has your genes in him/her, then their biological makeup is determined in large part by your biological makeup. If you choose not to take responsibility for the perceived shortcomings of your child, I ask you, do you take pride and responsibility for the good things? (eg – my kid’s got my eyes – who hasn’t beamed over that kind of statement).
I acknowledge the potential impact of epigenetics and environmental factors to the point that when I’m asked what caused my son’s autism, I respond with, “I don’t know”. Cop-out or safe bet? I don’t think about that, it’s just where I’m at this point in my path along this road.
777 You give me too much credit. You came blazing out of the gates with some nifty merc-stats (diva’s site) and then you’ve fallen off a bit. Ok, a lot. The following is a good example:
“If vaccinations really work, those vaccinated will be immune to the disease, so what does it matter if some people choose to go unvaccinated?
you’ve fallen off a bit. Ok, a lot. The following is a good example:
“If vaccinations really work, those vaccinated will be immune to the disease, so what does it matter if some people choose to go unvaccinated?
???
Diva said, “You can see that whole “perfect kid†yuppie mentiality that built in the early 90’s […] Nothing less than above normal is good enough. They just happen to come across this mercury idea and went psycho with it.”
I agree that there seems to be some serious Gordon Gekko-types out there powered by ego, greed, and anger. However, I feel that Joe and Jane parent are powered by love, fear, and guilt.
It would be very informative to discuss this issue with parents of older children who have gone through chelation, algae and everything else only to find that their child did not improve the way they had expected. They chelated on time (young), they went GCF, and took their Me-B12, but still their kid is autistic. Out of that group, who’s going to be a vocal proponent for these biomedical interventions? How many are going to be vocal in their opposition? I say that there’s too much guilt involved. My point is that I bet these types of people are the silent majority of those who really went through the biomedical juggernaut. (disclosure – by the strictest definition I am a biomed type since we see Dr. J, who took issue with her name being on the latest GR ad).
I would love to get in their head and ask if it was worth it. Do they sleep better at night or do they feel like they missed out on something? Do they feel that their resources would have been better spent elsewhere? Do they feel that their search for normalcy was worthwhile?
Diva (or anyone since I’m keenly interested), with regard to the Gekkos going “psycho” with the mercury theory, do you care to speculate why peanut allergy parents haven’t bought into the mercury theory?
777, define work
Bart said,
777, define work.
Definition of work: What the university thinks they are paying you for while you instead blog here all day. Ha!
Real definition of work:
Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
I think you’re telling me I misused the word work?
777: If vaccinations really work
What does this mean?
777’s answer for which vaccine is worse than the actual disease is “All of them!” … yet totally FAILED to show any REAL references. A journalist is not a reference. They are often biased, and the science often gets totally screwed up when it goes through a person who majored in “Communications”. I’ve read Evelyn Pringle, and all she does is parrot the anti-vax view using the same bad data, including the conflict ridden stuff from the Geiers (who make money on lawsuits with their “MedCon” company). She is a pretty lame reference.
The claim that the vaccines are worse than the disease is in no way based on reality. Especially since the news shows at least 10 children have died of measles in Romania recently:
http://www.kfmb.com/stories/story.30071.html …
… and there have been several infant deaths due to pertussis in this country this year… (in Arizona, Oregon and one of the Carolinas were some I’d seen in the news)… there are still 10 deaths per year in the US:
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccineInfo/vaccine_detail.cfv?id=22
Obviously this person has no intention in participating in any intellent discourse.
Anyway, the answer to the relative risks of the disease versus the vaccines is here:
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/compare.htm
If vaccinations really work
Health authorities credit vaccines for disease declines, and assure us of their safety and effectiveness. Yet these seemingly rock-solid assumptions are directly contradicted by government statistics, medical studies, Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reports, and reputable research scientists from around the world. In fact, infectious diseases declined steadily for decades prior to vaccinations, U.S. doctors report thousands of serious vaccine reactions each year including hundreds of deaths and permanent disabilities, fully vaccinated populations have experienced epidemics, and researchers attribute dozens of chronic immunological and neurological conditions to mass immunization programs. Documented safe and effective alternatives to vaccination have been available for decades but suppressed by the medical and pharmaceutical establishments.
The medical literature has a surprising number of studies documenting vaccine failure. Measles, mumps, small pox, polio and Hib outbreaks have all occurred in vaccinated populations. In 1989 the CDC reported: “Among school-aged children, measles outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination levels of greater than 98 percent. They have occurred in all parts of the country, including areas that had not reported measles for years.” The CDC even reported a measles outbreak in a documented 100 percent vaccinated population.
Those few who dare to question the status quo are frequently ostracized, and in any case they are still legally bound to adhere to the system’s legal mandates. Unless parents sign exemption forms, children must be vaccinated before they can get into school. This is the law, and lobbying controls legislation. The second most powerful lobby in Washington is the pharmaceutical industry. Pharmaceutical companies are inventing new vaccines every year, all with the hope of their being included in the mandated vaccination schedule. It’s very big money. And there are more vaccines on the back burner. Yet there are never long-term safety studies before vaccines get approved for mass use. There are also never any follow-up studies about long-term effectiveness of vaccines. This is why vaccines are always being altered and replaced–they cause negative side effects.
Definition of Quackery: Trying to eradicate viruses from the face of the earth through vaccines.
Hn said,
Obviously this person has no intention in participating in any intellent discourse.
The Spelling Police have pointed out that I have made a typing error. Oh gee… I must rethink my entire life…. but that is one thing about being an engineer, we have a handy excuse for not being able to spell. At least you didn’t notice that I had shown you some basic arithmatic.
A little ditty for you:
http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2005/12/truth-or-consequences.html
Just remember to go over and tell these people all about the dangers of vaccines… obviously they have been seriously misinformed… You are duty bound to save their remaining children!:
http://www.pertussis.com/share.html
http://www.familiesfightingflu.com/about/families/bellovich.aspx
http://www.meningitis-angels.org/heavenboundangels.htm
I think, and it might be shown with a little investigation, that without the money of a few very angry parents (who probably were totally freaked out that their kids weren'[t getting into the fast track play groups and preschools
remember them? 20,000 a year tuition for special preschools where the toddlers learned French and Italian and studied the brushwork of van Gogh?)
Those parents formed a theory and when it was doubted or disproven they said, “Well, it’s obviously a conspiracy! The world must know of this conspiracy. We need a book! Who will write the book? I know this guy… David Kirby… let’s get him to write the book! Though it IS possible that Kirby approached Lyn Redwood, and so forth… he says that all the digging had been done for him before he started to write the book.
Anyway, the majority of the parents sucked into this are at least middle class, probably, because of the cost involved in being ripped off by con-men. They aren’t all necessarily hoping for a perfect child, but that demand for the perfect child seems to increase with income and privilege.
Or am I wrong there?
There’s a massive majority of parents of autistic kids who are fighting for basic services from school districts and probably, if they hear about Bradstreet and the DAN! docs and Buttar, wish desperately that they could afford such. The local ethnic parents of autistic kids won’t be showing up at Lenny’s conference next month in Sacramento to hear Kirby and Kartzinel and to be warned about the dangers of vaccines… which they KNOW cause autism. (uhuh). They won’t be ordering sauna’s and RNA by the bottle.
Being poor stinks, but at least the poor people aren’t surgically targetted by conmen.
Wade, can you even imagine that your chid was destined to be autistic with or without any particular “environmental insult”? Is there any evidence that would make you believe that your child was going to be autistic from the time of conception?
Read up on the developmental timeline of the Purkinje cells and the supernumerary minicolumns that are constitent in atuism?
Diva blog has a bunch of the article about placebos on it now.
777, Ok, I’m impressed. Once again you come up with a nice summary of the facts distilled from the latest literature, and you’ve apparetnly done it in your own words./googles a sentence from the diatribe/
Oh.
Let me try that again…
Spare us the cut and paste shenanigans. If you feel you must parrot data-light, heavily vague and extremist propaganda, please just provide a link. I swear I’ll click it.
HN, better to ignore 777’s scientific problems/issues/disabilities or else you’ll, and I’m serious here, get challenged to debate Kirby, Imus, or Boyd in front of a live studio laugh track. Are you shaking in your flip-flops like me?
“getting into the fast track play groups‘
lol
So I’m pretty much stealing this line for future use.
Ms. Clark wrote:
“Wade, can you even imagine that your chid was destined to be autistic with or without any particular “environmental insult� Is there any evidence that would make you believe that your child was going to be autistic from the time of conception?
Read up on the developmental timeline of the Purkinje cells and the supernumerary minicolumns that are constitent in atuism?â€
Yes, I can imagine that my son’s autism is of a completely genetic origin. Although I think there is evidence to support the hypothesis that environmental insults play a role in triggering autistic symptoms, I — once again — agree that genetics are a necessary precursor. Given the very incomplete state of the scientific inquiry into autism, I would be a fool indeed not to recognize the possibility that genetics alone may account for some, and possibly all, cases of ASD. When the science looking at all of the different models of what we call autism is relatively complete, we will know. If science is able to definitively rule out environmental factors, I will accept that my child was autistic from conception. If that is the case, I will love him no less, and I will still do whatever I can to maximize his opportunities in life as I do for my NT kids, and as I am sure you do for your son.
And yes, I have read some of the literature on Purkinje cells and minicolumns. As I have consistently said, there are genetic factors at work, and those factors undoubtedly help establish the architecture of the brain. Whether that architecture, in and of itself, explains ASD — or the severity of ASD in any particular person — is something that I have not seen in any of the studies I have seen.
Emesis of Harm?
Epithets Of Harm?
Epic-demic Yarn?
Damn! This best seller thing ain’t easy! Just need a little more time. Stay focused on the goal….HEY! Who moved the…..
where’s that confounded bridge. Has anybody seen the bridge?
Well, I’m off to the Autism Won conference.
I firmly believe that autism is genetic, but sex is not the only to mix genes.
Hn, that wasn’t just a spelling slip. Consider what you were attempting to convey in that sentence. I could care about your spelling or mine but I know you and a few others here love to jump on someone for misspelling a word. I couldn’t pass up the opportunity.
I find it a little odd that all your links don’t site any references. Isn’t this what you just scolded me about? That site you sent me to from King County in Seattle, Washington, a lot of those figures are wrong and I don’t see any references.
HN said, in Arizona, Oregon and one of the Carolinas were some I’d seen in the news)… there are still 10 deaths per year in the US: Where are your references?
HN Said, Just remember to go over and tell these people all about the dangers of vaccines… obviously they have been seriously misinformed… You are duty bound to save their remaining children!: Where are their references? Better sanitation is the reason most of these viruses are in check today not vaccines. I am not familiar with the level of sanitation in Romania.
I am duty bound? I’m duty bound to these people. Watch the video!
Bart said,
Spare us the cut and paste shenanigans. If you feel you must parrot data-light, heavily vague and extremist propaganda, please just provide a link. I swear I’ll click it.
No matter where I link you to or cut and paste or studies I site, you have a lame excuse or some lame explanation for them or you just discredit the author of the study but I notice you never bring anything to the table yourself.
I firmly believe that autism is genetic, but sex is not the only WAY mix genes.
If autism is genetic, what would explain the two mutated genes that French scientsists found on the X-chromosome? What would explain the 98,000 spliced-in viral genes liberally peppering our chromosomes?
Ms. Clark said,
Anyway, the majority of the parents sucked into this are at least middle class, probably, because of the cost involved in being ripped off by con-men.
You sure changed your tune from a few months ago. Before someone corrected you awhile back, you always said that only the rich parents were patients of Buttar and others. Now they’re middle class? If someone can’t afford to get testing started for their child, their financial status is no excuse. They can go here. They have 0% financing or you pay for 1/3 of your testing and they bill your insurance company for the rest. If insurance doesn’t pay or if you don’t have insurance, CASD pays the rest. They are a 501(c) 3.
_I think, and it might be shown with a little investigation, that without the money of a few very angry parents (who probably were totally freaked out that their kids weren’[t getting into the fast track play groups and preschools
remember them? 20,000 a year tuition for special preschools where the toddlers learned French and Italian and studied the brushwork of van Gogh?) _
Whoa. Nice use of incomplete sentence structure with a massive parenthetical interruption….
Without the money of a very few, very angry, very rich, very overconfident parents, there would be no mercury hypothesis. They would have shifted from secretin to something else. Maybe they’d all be into oxidative stress, either by trying to treat it or conversely trying to cause it with HBOT.
We can be pretty sure they they all would stick with a vaccine cause because they all started out on the antivax track with Wakefield’s followers.
There was no autism epidemic. If this handful of people had been better at interpreting data or more honest (depending on their motivations and intelligence) they never would have thought there was an autism epidemic. Without the epidemic hue and cry, where’s the sturm and drang needed to get all the television appearances and the private audiences with the kings and queens of the CDC and IOM? Remember, “if it bleeds it leads”?
But I digress again. I can’t believe that the NIMH is funding a study on HBOT!
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00263367;jsessionid=DDD0BB101150A6270ABB3C26FF332AED?order=6
Oh, sure! It’s Dr. Jeff Bradstreet. So we can assume he’s using the plastic kind that he advertises on his website.
“This study will look at the changes taking place in the blood levels of key markers of oxidative stress. Oxidative stress is the biological equivalent of rust on a car. It changes vital cell chemistry. It is known to occur at high pressure oxygen, but little is known about changes at pressures slightly greater than normal atmospheric pressure.
Hyperbaric therapy is used in a variety of medical conditions. It is being tested in this study only for safety. It is not being assessed for the ability of hyperbaric oxygen to improve the clinical condition of children with autism.
This study was felt to be important since autism appears to be associated with oxidative stress and hyperbarics was being used “off-label” for this condition without safety studies.”
Bart,
You said if I provide a link that you will click it. How do you explain this?
One can only imagine the hundreds of poor families, below middle class or middle class trying to make ends meet (mom had to quit her job to take care of the autistic child’s special needs… or she’s a single mom… or an imigrant…) who will be supported by Buttar in their efforts to be misled into using a lotion that has no evidence and won’t ever have any evidence that it works…
There’s a whole world of barely making it people out there. From where we sit, middle class looks pretty cushy.
Anyway, the freaked out mercury parents are a minority no matter how you look at it. The are being led by people with such inflated egos that one might think that it was a big bunch.
Let’s go to Lenny’s show in Sacramento in January and do an estimate of the income of the folks there by noting the makes of their automobiles and their skin color. Wanna place any bets on what the ratio of whites driving something better than a 2 year old mini-van? Wanna tell me how many African American and Latino’s and Russians and Hmong, Thai, Mien, Vietnamese and Chinese will be there? These people used to be a part of my little world when I was an apartment manager in W. Sacramento… I know what the racial and fiscal makeup of Sacramento is.
But, I digress again.
777 said, “No matter where I link you to or cut and paste or studies I site, you have a lame excuse or some lame explanation for them or you just discredit the author of the study but I notice you never bring anything to the table yourself.”
That’s rich. You sit there and cherry pick quotes from the talking points list and expect others to be impressed? Do you really think these bits earn you the “I understand what I’m talking about” merit badge? Please. anonymous, could you please get out your little violin and play the Eagles tune for our buddy here?
Jill Very interesting stuff. IMO, more interesting: full sequence analysis of several generations to quantitate the fraction of the spliced-in genes inhereted as WT. Further, are these genes more likely to be mutated than endogenous sequence and is there a C+G % difference compared to the surrounding endogenous sequence. I can’t wait – paging Mr. C. Venter!
Diva, This study was felt to be important since autism appears to be associated with oxidative stress and hyperbarics was being used “off-label” for this condition without safety studies.
Reading between the lines – we don’t want anyone to get really hurt because of some cowboy (un-cajun) so let’s get this down on paper. Depressing. I went to the NIH grants site and there has been no federal grant given out for this project. That’s good, because if he took money from us tax payers, he’d be one of the bad guys who’s in on the conspiracy.
/cranes neck to look out the window/
There’s that van again.
I said I would, so I will. Give me a minute to get into Dan’s piece.
Hi Triplesev300,
I know your link was for Bart, but I have some points I wish to bring up.
These doctors deliver babies at home, yes? And they don’t vaccinate on the first day of life. Okay…..
Does that mean they care for the children on an ongoing basis (there are other chances to give vaccines), or are we just talking anecdote here based on no parent coming back and saying “My child is autistic now, thought you would like to knowâ€.
The doctor admitted all this was anecdotal.
Maybe this “proof†is without merit based on those facts.
Let’s get into the other problems this article presents.
The article was quoting the IDEA stats for autism in Illinois. They notice these are lower than the 1 per 166. This is true for the entire US and for every state in it. No State gets even close to the 1 per 166.
That is because the IDEA doesn’t measure kids who meet criteria for autism as established by the DSM-IV. Instead they measure who gets put into the autism service category based on national/State criteria.
That doctor said “We would absolutely know. We’re all family doctors. If I have a child with autism come in, there’s no communication. It’s frightening. You can’t touch them. It’s not something that anyone would miss.”â€
This is so untrue as to be actually dangerous. This is not what the descriptive epidemiology shows. This is not even what the IDEA stats suggest. The IDEA diagnosticians assign older kids to the autism category like it is going out of style. I guess they do miss it, but then they are not giving a diagnosis in the first place.
When the numbers are inappropriately used in an article that counts on them as its main proof, what can we conclude?
Sometimes your very funny Bart,
Please. anonymous, could you please get out your little violin and play the Eagles tune for our buddy here?
/cranes neck to look out the window/
There’s that van again. LOL!
Jonathan said,
These doctors deliver babies at home, yes? And they don’t vaccinate on the first day of life. Okay…..
They have over 35,000 patients and according to their website they have deivered 15,000 at home. I kinda took from the article that they just plain don’t vaccinate, period. Come on John, out of the 15,000 they have delivered at home and some may still be thier patients and some may not but they don’t have ANY autistic patients.
Does it really matter if the numbers are even one tenth as much as what the IDEA claims? We still have a serious autism epidemic!
Aravinda Chakravarti, Ph.D., director of the McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine at Hopkins is currently looking for combinations of genetic mutations and extra or missing gene copies in the “Hunt for Autism.”. Gene therapy is known to use viruses to deliver genes. Hmmmm….
Ok. They’ve had ~35,000 kids on their books
The stats from the article:
IL: 38/10000
US: 60/10000
So they should have seen 140-188 autistic kids since 1973. They say they’ve seen None in that time as long as they were not vaccinated.
If this was distributed evenly, we’re talking about 15-20 kids a year. Now Dan wants me to believe that given the size of this practise, that parents of a kid who gets referred to a ped neurologist by a preschool teacher are going to stick with this holistic God-fearing provider so that they can stay wholesome, or are they going to switch providers to someone who’s going to give the kid some therapy? I think that they’re out of there with good reason.
But without even thinking about it, here’s from the article:
‘Schattauer, interviewed at the Rolling Meadows office, said his caseload is too limited to draw conclusions about a possible link between vaccines and autism. “With these numbers you’d have a hard time proving or disproving anything,” he said. “You can only get a feeling about it.
“In no way would I be an advocate to stand up and say we need to look at vaccines, because I don’t have the science to say that,” Schattauer said. “But I don’t think the science is there to say that it’s not.” ‘
What was I supposed to get from this? (warning soundclip contains the word sh*t 1X)
I’ve paid my penance. I’ll be a good boy. Please no more Olmstead.
BTW Anonymous-Henley – you ever hear the Dude’s line on the Eagles? Call me the cab driver. 😉
It’s late, my eyes are crossing and I can’t do math right now.
Oh good, Jonathan’s here. Monssieur, the floor is your’s.
But the Lebowski link still stands! Yeah.
Schattauer continues by saying,
Schattauer said Homefirst’s patients also have significantly less childhood asthma and juvenile diabetes compared to national rates. An office manager who has been with Homefirst for 17 years said she is aware of only one case of severe asthma in an unvaccinated child.
“Sometimes you feel frustrated because you feel like you’ve got a pretty big secret,” Schattauer said. He argues for more research on all those disorders, independent of political or business pressures.
Sometimes you feel frustrated because you feel like you’ve got a pretty big secret,†Schattauer said.
Hn said,
Just remember to go over and tell these people all about the dangers of vaccines… obviously they have been seriously misinformed… You are duty bound to save their remaining children!:
http://www.pertussis.com/share.html
112 children died from vaccine reactions in the US last year, and for many vaccines, a 48-hour limit has been arbitrarily set for reporting a reaction. If a baby dies 50 hours after a shot, that death is not reported as an adverse reaction. Doctors make the majority of these reports, and the majority of deaths are attributed to the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine–the “P in DPT. This figure alone is alarming, yet it is only the “tip of the iceberg.” Pertussis toxin is used to create encephalitis in lab animals. The FDA estimates that only about 10% of adverse reactions are reported–a figure supported by two National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) investigations. In fact, the NVIC reported that, “In New York, only one out of 40 doctor’s offices (2.5%) confirmed that they report a death or injury following vaccination”–so 97.5% of vaccine-related deaths and disabilities go unreported there. Doctors are legally required to report serious adverse events. These findings suggest that vaccine deaths actually occurring each year in the US may be well over 1,000.
Good Night!
TS3k – bottom line: Olmsted, Kirby and Pringle are journo’s. Not only that but they are rabidly biased journo’s (esp Pringle who’s pieces are just rants really). Your reliance on people such as this in matters of science as oppose to scientists is I’m afraid demonstrative of the overall sorry state of your argument.
If you want to look at the _science_ of something then you need a _scientist_ . Kirby’s found that out the hard way.
Hi TripleSev300,
Actually I took from that article that they don’t vaccinate if it is against the parents religious beliefs, otherwise they do.
I quote “Homefirst follows state immunization mandates, but Illinois allows religious exemptions if parents object based either on tenets of their faith or specific personal religious views. Homefirst does not exclude or discourage such families.â€
The logic fallacy of conclusions based on an unrepresentative sample is in effect here.
And how day of birth vaccines relate to the much touted MMR or UK DPT (the only UK one to have Thimerosal) and which both happen later, I am not quite sure. Can you explain this?
To be fair, this may well include a lack of other vaccinations at a later date, while the child is still under the care of a Homefirst doctor. Not that I can tell based on this article.
However, to offer a legitimate (accurate) comparison to descriptive epidemiology they would have to put a cohort of those kids through a formal screening just like in the descriptive epidemiology. Currently we are comparing apples and goldfish.
Do they screen using proper methods for developmental differences or autism? I saw no indication of it.
You would have it one tenth of 1 per 166, so 6 (rounded) per 10,000. Are you sure you want to say that? That would be well within the error range of the very first autism prevalence rate study in 1966.
Three-fourths of the “epidemic†is not Autistic Disorder, but another subtype that were added in 1994. Autism wasn’t formally defined and placed as a category until 1980. Before that it was up to the epidemiological researchers to define “autism†as they saw fit. Also, the diagnosis became more lenient from 1980 to 1994. Never mind the fact that many of the best diagnostic tools for autism were non existent until the 1990s. Then there is the fact that we are more familiar now with autism.
Then there is the fact that the prevalence for autism hasn’t changed since the early 1990s.
See you in the moring then……
TripleSev: “Real definition of work:
Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.”
Now explain that in your own words. With relevance to how vaccines work.
You can’t?
Ah… it figures.
777: “If someone can’t afford to get testing started for their child, their financial status is no excuse.”
Well, here’s a nice thing. If parents can’t afford (much less don’t want) to follow an idiotic health-fraud protocol, there is “no excuse” for them, since someone will put up some of the dosh and the rest will be billed to insurance?
A centre that is linked to…. Buttar! Well, bugger me! I would never have guessed! The whole site is basically an advert for his protocol!
777, not impressive. Show me *science*. Peer reviewed work, double-blind studies, replicated results by at least two more independent teams.
You can’t do that.
Now grow up, will you? Or get references that are proper references, rather than journalists and advert-sites for idiots committing health-care fraud crimes.
From that idiotic site (my emphasis): “WE USE TESTING PANELS FOR HEAVY METALS, POLLUTAINTS, INFECTIONS (VIRUS, BACTERIA, YEAST), GENETIC PREDISPOSITION (MTHFR, COMT, GSTM1, SOD2, NAT2, MTP, APOE, ETC.), AND MANY OTHERS SO WE NOW KNOW BETTER WHAT TO DO TO TREAT OUR CHILDREN *INSTEAD OF RELYING ON BLINDED TRIAL AND ERROR* WITHOUT THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION.
TIME MATTERS TO OUR CHILDREN. WE HAVE NO TIME TO WASTE.”
So, this is “we don’t want science on this, and we’re happy to go along with voodoo”.
Ultimately, this is not a resource anyone should really feel the need to use.
HN: “Obviously this person has no intention in participating in any intelligent discourse.”
Yep.
Might be right there.
Thank you for fixing my typing error… It is especially true with the flying machine nit-picks every reference it is given, yet does not give any of its own (except for one promoting “biomedical” solutions — I think its been sold up the Snohomish River!).
For the flying machine: As far as a reference for pertussis, I had read through http://news.google.com about the pertussis deaths in Arizona, Oregon and one of the Carolina. I checked, and those news reports were no longer available… BUT I did provide this link:
“there are still 10 deaths per year in the US:
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccineInfo/vaccine_detail.cfv?id=22”
I’m curious of where 777 got the “120 deaths due to vaccines a year from”. A http://www.pubmed.gov would be more believable than a journalist.
By the way, what does 777 have against King County, WA? — it is where the Boeing 777-300 is flight tested (it was designed and is assembled in Snohomish County). If you look at the bottom of the webpage you will see they are more than willing to give you the sources… they would be glad to show one of the local products the information. You should read its Epilog newsletter.
But you are a silly airplane… and not worth dealing with. You are less like the several million parts flying in formation and more like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FremontTroll.jpg
Mr. Rankin,
I forgot to thank you for answering my question.
I’m surprised that you are open to the idea that your child could be autistic without a childhood environmental insult. It is far more logical to look at a prenatal insult.
It’s funny how the mercury/biomed parents are not as gung ho on chasing down the likely prenatal expsosures that could create an autistic brain.
No one wants to talk about mom’s alcohol consumption. Why is that?
No one wants to talk about pesticides or fire retardants? Why is that?
Very few parents want to talk just about prenatal viral exposure. Why is that?
There was a study implicating a drug used by moms who use _in vitro_ or some other reproductive technology… I’d love to know if Sally B. used that one. She had triplets boys. One was autistic.
What about the mom’s age, that was implicated in one study?
No one talks about that. Why is that?
No one talk about mental illness or broad autism phenotype in parents and grandparents ….unless they blame it on mercury… I know why they don’t discuss that… hits too close to home.
These are much more promising leads that mercury in childhood vaccines.
I sent an email to Dr Hendren, maybe a year ago, I suggested a slogan for the MIND institute’s next ad, it was, “Stop the autism epidemic. Don’t let crazy people breed.” He ignored my suggestion… could have something to do with the “founding father effect.”
Of course, I wouldn’t want to stop crazy people from breeding, but it make more sense than taking mercury out of vaccines as far as autism is concerned.
Actually, I’ll let you in on a little secret…. if all the parents were screaming about prenatal mercury exposure from whatever… I would have much to say about it. I think that’s a logical thing to examine (without freaking out and demanding that all scientists find a certain result). If parents would stick to freaking about prenatal chemicals or whatever and leave the whole stinking [lliterally in the case of Buttar lotion (TM) don’t forget the non-existent “trademark”] chelation thing in the gutter where it belongs… Autism Diva could go back to slamming ABA, and you all could say she’s insane for slamming ABA, but theb you all (not meaning you Mr. Rankin) would have to stop calling her a pharmco shill….
I’m still amazed at the utter lack of logic you show considering that you are a lawyer. I don’t mean that as a brutal slam to you, but you are so illogical in this.
What do you think about _Water’s and Kraus _and their activities in all this? They used to have an employee who posted to Autism-mercury from time to time… it was a woman, I can’t remember her name.
A lot of what seems to damn thimerosal is stuff that _Waters & Kraus_ dug up in “discovery”. Are you going to tell me that they absolutely did not spin their findings to look the most damning? Are you going to tell me that if they found expiating evidence that they’d share it with the mercury paretns and David Kirby.
Have you no sense of how manipulative the book, “Evidence of telling half-truths” is? This is what lawyers do. They spin the facts to make the jury think their client is a victim or that their client is innocent… even if the lawyer knows in his gut that the client is totally guilty. Or did I get my lawyer info from watching “Perry Mason” all wrong.
I loved Perry Mason. I have a friend who fitted Raymond Burr with a wheelchair a year or so before Burr died… oh AIDS if I remember right… I bet Burr would have wanted all the kids withing blocks of his home vaccinated once his immune system went hooey…. Oh rats, there goes that digressing again.
Apologies to all for the goofy spelling and grammar mistakes, I’m not proofing very well, obviously.
Another promising area of research would be the influences of person variables and environment variables as they influence behaviour via their influences on the person’s developmental trajectory.
Nobody’s looking into that… a holistic approach which could encompass so many things… the idea gets rejected in favour of reductionist frameworks.
David said, “Nobody’s looking into that… a holistic approach which could encompass so many things… the idea gets rejected in favour of reductionist frameworks.”
Because so many people think that nothing is “real” unless it can be quantified in some manner.
Of course, the right numbers are those that support your pet theory…
andrea
Ms. Clark,
Actually, many if not most, of “us†have considered the question of prenatal insults. In the case of my son, we cannot think of anything (certainly none of the possibilities you discuss above) that could be to blame. But the potential for a prenatal event playing a causative role is certainly significant and should be the subject of further research. You’ll get no argument from me about that. (See how pleasant it can be when we play nice.)
Without more specificity in the charge, I can’t really respond to being called “illogical.†I suppose you are referring to my opinion on the possible causal link between vaccines and ASD, and what some call the absence of scientific proof. As I have freely admitted, the science on that question is far from complete, but it is a hypothesis that makes sense. Indeed, the IOM in its first report on the subject called it a “plausible†hypothesis. Unfortunately, the IOM chose to revisit the issue before the types of studies they had themselves called for could be performed. Instead, the IOM chose to rely on what I believe to be VERY flawed epidemiological studies. (No need to rehash that argument; we both know where we stand.)
In short, I have seen nothing to refute the hypothesis. What I have seen anecdotally is a regression into autism that seems temporally related to particular events, and alleviation of particular symptoms following interventions based on the hypothesis. Therefore, my belief in the hypothesis may not be “scientific†by definition, but that does not make it illogical.
And yes, like too many people, you rely far too much on Mr. Mason as a source of legal knowledge. The ability to “spin†facts is far more valuable on television than it is in real life. While in law school, I clerked for an old-time plaintiff lawyer who used to tell me, “you just can’t turn lead into gold.†What he meant was that no amount of skill can make up for a bad case.
I really don’t know a lot about what Waters & Krauss has done in this matter. This may sound kind of funny, but the ongoing legal drama is the least interesting issue to me. I do know this, however. The defendants have an equal, if not better, opportunity to “spin†whatever documents have come out in discovery.
Finally, I find myself mildly surprised to be agreeing with David. A holistic approach IS needed. I don’t think such an approach can be put together until we have found all the pieces to incorporate into that approach. Therefore, reductionist studies are still important at this stage. I have no problem at all with appropriate effort being put into areas other than thimerosal and vaccines. I would have a problem if thimerosal and vaccines are not studied further.
“Documented safe and effective alternatives to vaccination have been available for decades but suppressed by the medical and pharmaceutical establishments.”
Okay. I have two questions.
1) What is the annual profit made by the pharmaceutical industry off of vaccines?
2) Why would the medical establishment want to suppress anything? That is – what do they have to gain?
If you can provide convincing and accurate answers to those two questions, I might actually accept your claim. I doubt you can, though.
Vaccines are safe?
Ha!
Yea, they really are.
No, really.
Seriously.
“Documented safe and effective alternatives to vaccination have been available for decades but suppressed by the medical and pharmaceutical establishments.â€
Why does that remind me of the guy who invented a 150 MPG carburetor only to be paid off by the oil companies to keep it secret?
777-300 can’t find a single scientific reference to back his claims up, can he?