The unknown is exciting. As a species we seem innately curious about seeing whats over the next hill, beyond the next valley, what happens if we heat this liquid to its boiling point, etc etc. But fairly obviously, we quickly realised that if we didn’t exert some level of control over the things we were curious enough about to examine closely then the results were arbitrary and meaningless.
“Hey, look at that!” we exclaimed to ourselves, “we’ve just invented the scientific method. How cool are we?”.
Unfortunately, as well as being logical, nuanced creatures capable of appreciating such things as the pathos in satire we’re also reactionary and blinkered. As someone recently remarked:
Too many people on all sides of the debate(s) seem to wear blinders that prevent them from acknowledging how little we all know.
A statement I fully support. However, there are certain things that we need to be certain about when we treat autistic children.
Is chelation safe? Here’s Wade again, quoting a commenter called Random John:
At any rate, it’s still pretty unclear why chelation therapy seems to be successful for some children, but not for others. The polarity of the thimerosal and chelation debates does not seem to cover the ground necessary to understand what’s really going on.
Which is very true. Unfortunately, its yet another example of shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted. To worry about these things after you’re already treating an autistic child with something like chelation is quite simply stupid. If there are people who are concerned about what effects chelation may or may not have on autistic children then basic medical principles need to be applied: first, do no harm.
That means you need to conduct safety trials before using something that has the following warning on it:
The use of this drug [EDTA] in any particular patient is recommended only when the severity of the clinical condition justifies the aggressive measure associated with this type of therapy.
Recently such people as Dr. Mary Jean Brown, Chief of the Lead Poisoning Prevention Branch of the Centers for Disease Control claimed that if chelators were used properly then they’d be safe. I take extreme issue with this viewpoint.
Chelation is essentially a chemical process – it alters the chemical composition of the body. Bearing that in mind, consider the following:
This review focuses on recent advances in the in vivo study of the whole brain in idiopathic autism…..Diffuse abnormalities of brain chemical concentrations, are…found. Abnormalities of ….brain chemistry…are evident by early childhood….
So, the brains of autistic people are chemically different then the brains of non-autistics. Given that fact, is it a) stupid or b) clever to use a process that alters the chemical composition of the person and which has never undergone any safety trials in regards to autism?
There’s a whole bunch of people here who need to take a drastic step backwards and do some basic safety trials on what is, irrespective of their beliefs, a poorly understood and potentially dangerous/fatal process.
Left Brain Right Brain 
_”Let’s talk about the abuse put upon Wakefield and the Geiers to name a few.”_
All they had to was follow sceintific process. They couldn’t. They only got theresults they did due to their errors.
No sympathy for the incompetent.
Kev wrote:
“No sympathy for the incompetent”.
– Ah yes, as opposed to all the completely competent loons who run in your circle. Laughing outloud…
-Sue M.
Sigh – more meaningless generalisations.
Come on Sue, name the names of these scientists who are incompetent.
Sue M. said: “I suppose that it is time for both “sides†to get together to work on testing, safety regulations, etc. It’s all good as far as I’m concerned…”
Followed by: “Ah yes, as opposed to all the completely competent loons who run in your circle. Laughing outloud…”
Not exactly a step in the direction of mutual respect and unity. Seems like “it’s all good” as long as Sue says “it’s all good”
Clone wrote:
“Not exactly a step in the direction of mutual respect and unity. Seems like “it’s all good†as long as Sue says “it’s all goodâ€.
– I’m still all for mutual respect and unity. Emphasis on mutual.
-Sue M.
You know Sue, with friends like you and (especially) John Best Jr. (or should I call him Fore Sam?) the Mercury Minority doesn’t need any enemies.
Kev wrote:
“Come on Sue, name the names of these scientists who are incompetent”.
– How about if I just give you some examples of incompetence? For one:
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/504_iom.html
– Or then on your side of the pond:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=376203&in_page_id=1774&in_a_source=
– Still to general?
– Sue M.
So let me see if I understand you. You’re saying that because sonmeone disagree’s with you then that makes them incompetent? Wow. Nice ego you have there Sue.
By contrast, I pointed out that the whole scientific community think that the Geiers and Wakefield are incompetent.
It doesn’t surprise me in the least that you feel these back up your beliefs. It’ll come as no surprise to anyone else that this is yet another example of circular reasoning on your part.
Dr Fletcher by the way had this to say in a 2001 article:
_”Dr Peter Fletcher, who used to assess the safety of medicines for the Department of Health, told BBC News Online that Dr Wakefield’s research paper did not contain any extra evidence to alarm parents, but that this would be the inevitable effect.”_
_”He said: “Parents should definitely continue to have their children immunised against these illnesses. “_
Source.
If you were a UK resident you’d know that science from the Daily Mail is a joke. They once touted a book called The Bible Code as proof of the imminent end of the world.
Kev wrote:
“So let me see if I understand you. You’re saying that because sonmeone disagree’s with you then that makes them incompetent? Wow. Nice ego you have there Sue”.
– No Kev, disagreeing with me certainly does not make anyone incompetent (I’m sure that you’ll be happy to hear that). The incompetence comes from the fact that these “scientific” groups are willing to make these proclamations of safety and are willing to say outright that vaccines don’t cause autism without having a real understanding of what does trigger autism. Tell it like it is… we don’t know if vaccines trigger autism… we have not done the necessary testing on these products to determine if vaccines could trigger autism. We don’t know. You talk about my ego? I’ve got nothing on them.
Kev wrote:
“Dr Fletcher by the way had this to say in a 2001 article, etc, etc, etc…”
– Seems like he has done a lot more research since then which leads him in a new direction. I respect that.
Kev wrote:
“If you were a UK resident you’d know that science from the Daily Mail is a joke. They once touted a book called The Bible Code as proof of the imminent end of the world”.
– I don’t care what they have touted before. This newspaper is not doing the science here, Kev. They are reporting on what a former government official has to say. If you can show me where they have paid off Dr. Fletcher or have completely misquoted him or whatever, than I will listen. Otherwise, I’ll have to believe that they have quoted him correctly and told an accurate account of his views. Please advise if you see a retraction on this piece. In this article that I linked above they speak of another report from two weeks ago about bowel disease in a poor autistic boy over there and his complete lack of treatment. It was very troubling. I hope that you got a chance to read it.
– Sue M.
Dave wrote:
“You know Sue, with friends like you and (especially) John Best Jr. (or should I call him Fore Sam?) the Mercury Minority doesn’t need any enemies”.
– Nice to hear from you again, Dave. You seem to poke your nose in just to put me in my place every once in a while. I greatly appreciate it. Now, do you have anything of substance to add?
– Sue M.
If mercury causes autism, then why are there unvaccinated autistic kids?
(answer: because mercury DOESN’T cause autism)
Hi Sue,
You said:
“The incompetence comes from the fact that these “scientific†groups are willing to make these proclamations of safety and are willing to say outright that vaccines don’t cause autism without having a real understanding of what does trigger autism.â€
One does have to know the causal mechanism to criticize a given theory.
Allow me to make a syllogism;
1. The IOM ruled out the shots as a cause of autism
2. The IOM doesn’t know what causes autism
3. Therefore, the shots may cause autism
That conclusion does not follow….
Arguing to the unknown usually is problematic.
ARGGGG!
The above should read “One does NOT have to know the causal mechanism to criticize a given theory”
Sue M. said: “Tell it like it is… we don’t know if vaccines trigger autism… we have not done the necessary testing on these products to determine if vaccines could trigger autism. We don’t know.
Precisely why I, and many other people, have a problem with you, and many other people, going around saying autism can be caused by thimerosal. Burden of proof is assumed by those making the claims. It’s not necessary to prove thimerosal doesn’t cause autism. It’s necessary to prove that it does. Until that happens, we don’t know.
Before you come back with the lack of safety trials for thimerosal, it’s probably undergone more safety testing in a large population of children than any other drug ingredient in history. I’m not defending it’s use, just pointing out that it is being removed even though it was never found to be unsafe. Of course Deth and others see that as being caught red handed. There’s no winning, is there?
So before anyone starts running around saying all autistics are really victims of institutionalized poisoning, let me remind you of those words:
we don’t know if vaccines trigger autism
Repeat as necessary.
_”No Kev, disagreeing with me certainly does not make anyone incompetent (I’m sure that you’ll be happy to hear that). The incompetence comes from the fact that these “scientific†groups are willing to make these proclamations of safety and are willing to say outright that vaccines don’t cause autism without having a real understanding of what does trigger autism. “_
No, what the FDA said on this piece you linked to was: _”There is no link between autism and the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine or the vaccine preservative thimerosal,”_
Thats simply the truth. If you know otherwise then feel free to post that.
What the Daily Mail think is irrelevant. What Peter Fletcher thinks is not irrelevant but then I’ve not heard anyone else report this story. Just one newspaper with a bad track record on science.
_”Seems like he has done a lot more research since then which leads him in a new direction. I respect that.”_
Thats funny – when you read about _my_ change in direction I got nothing but scorn from you. More double standards Sue. And I doubt he’s done any more research. He talks about these thousands of articles but doesn’t discuss or even name them. How convenient.
_”Otherwise, I’ll have to believe that they have quoted him correctly and told an accurate account of his views. Please advise if you see a retraction on this piece.”_
My, my. You weren’t saying that a couple of weeks ago about Kirby’s run-in with the NYT. Yet again, if a scenario supports your pet theory then its all good. If not, then its all bad.
_”In this article that I linked above they speak of another report from two weeks ago about bowel disease in a poor autistic boy over there and his complete lack of treatment. It was very troubling. I hope that you got a chance to read it.”_
I did indeed.
Clone wrote:
“we don’t know if vaccines trigger autism”.
– Ok, so then I would assume that you would strongly disagree with the IOM coming out so strongly with their proclamation that vaccines don’t cause autism.
-Sue M.
Kev wrote:
“Thats funny – when you read about my change in direction I got nothing but scorn from you. More double standards Sue. And I doubt he’s done any more research. He talks about these thousands of articles but doesn’t discuss or even name them. How convenient”.
– He must be getting paid off by SafeMinds…
Kev wrote:
“My, my. You weren’t saying that a couple of weeks ago about Kirby’s run-in with the NYT”.
– Again, I will continue assuming that they got Fletcher’s opinion correct. If you hear otherwise let me know. As for the Kirby thing, we seemed to have known pretty early in the discussion that Kirby had asked for a retraction. Either way, Kirby is a journalist (remember)… I would have assumed that you would consider Fletcher’s opinion to be a bit more important… Maybe not.
Kev wrote:
“I did indeed”.
– Tragic that this little boy had to suffer so much. Imagine being ignored by the standard medical community like that? Shame. Shame.
– Sue M.
Kassiane wrote:
“(answer: because mercury DOESN’T cause autism)”
– Thank you for clearing this up for me. I will sleep much better tonight. Can you tell the answer to global warming, please?
– Sue M.
_”He must be getting paid off by SafeMinds…”_
More likely he’s just plain wrong.
_”As for the Kirby thing, we seemed to have known pretty early in the discussion that Kirby had asked for a retraction. Either way, Kirby is a journalist (remember)… I would have assumed that you would consider Fletcher’s opinion to be a bit more important”_
Not quite. Kirby claims he asked for a retraction. The two journalists I spoke to made it clear he didn’t. He might wish he had asked for a retraction but he quite clearly didn’t.
Fletchers opinion might have been important 30 years ago when he worked for the Gvmnt but whilst I value his opinion over Kirby’s, I don’t value it as much as the current scientific team or that of the international scientific community.
Kev wrote:
“Fletchers opinion might have been important 30 years ago when he worked for the Gvmnt but whilst I value his opinion over Kirby’s, I don’t value it as much as the current scientific team or that of the international scientific community”.
– Translation: I used to think Fletcher’s opinion was important when it worked for me, now, I don’t value his opinion at all… he must be wrong.
– Sue M.
OK, so someone needs to contact Fletcher to see what these thousands of papers are.
Then he can talk to all the kids who’ve been getting mumps and measles over there in the UK and talk to them about how at least they aren’t autistic. Wakefield doesn’t even have any compelling papers that he quotes to support his views. I’ve looked at the papers he cited in his last paper. There’s no there there.
He’s got speculation upon speculation, and he probably never found measles in the intestines of autistic kids to begin with, and he’s shown himself to be unethical in his research.
Good news, though. The MIND institute is convening some kind of conflab to decide whether or not there has been an epidemic. (why would they even need to ask such a question?? isn’t it obvious??)
I’m just guessing, but I’m guessing the outcome will be “There ain’t been no stinkin’ epidemic” And Rollens will move to Buenos Aires or somewhere, and change his name, or he’ll say, “I knew that. I knew it all along.”
Should be interesting. If the MIND says there has been an epidemic the rest of the scientists in the world will hold them in absolute derision.
Evidence says there hasn’t been anything like an epidemic, not even a half a tsunami, not even a serious increase. Maybe a small increase, but nothing big. No epidemic. It’s obvious if you look at the numbers and where they come from and what they represent. there has been massive diagnosis shifting. There has been a negative tsunami in retardation and “specific learning disability” in the IDEA stats.
Anyone can go look and see. I predict Sue and the rest won’t do it. Or if they do it, they won’t report what they find. Too damning.
Sue M.:
“(answer: because mercury DOESN’T cause autism)â€
– Thank you for clearing this up for me. I will sleep much better tonight. Can you tell the answer to global warming, please?
– Sue M.
I’m sure Kassiane is glad to hear you are well rested but you completely ignored (and omitted) Kassiane’s actual question. I’ll paste it below in case it was unintentionally overlooked:
If mercury causes autism, then why are there unvaccinated autistic kids?
Wel what of it Sue? How could that be? If you say it’s environmental sources of mercury then I guess it never was the vaccines at all. Sticky wicket, as they say.
Ms. Clark wrote:
“and he probably never found measles in the intestines of autistic kids to begin with…”
– Fombonne is supposed to be coming out with something on this. Right, Camille? I didn’t miss it did I? I will be interested in reading it to see what he has to say. Unlike some of you who don’t really seem to care what Fletcher may know that you don’t… So much for looking at the science.
Ms. Clark wrote:
“there has been massive diagnosis shifting. There has been a negative tsunami in retardation and “specific learning disability†in the IDEA stats”.
– I had actually asked you a question about this in a previous blog. I didn’t hear back from you so you may have missed it. I believe that you had said something along the lines of why is no one screaming about the decrease in mr vs the increase in autism (again, not a quote from you but you get the point). So, I asked, and will ask again… why aren’t any “officials” screaming about this? I can’t imagine that they would sit on this information for so long if it were so obvious (or accurate). It just doesn’t make sense to me. The analogy would be like this: I am accused of robbing a bank. I did not rob a bank. I have an alibi that would clear me of the crime of robbery (I was at work). Why would I not shout my alibi out to everyone involved?? Again, something does not jive.
* Anyone care to comment on the article about the young autistic boy with severe GI problems over in the UK whose treatment for this problem was non-treatment. In fact, no one wanted to touch him with a 10 foot pole. I can’t imagine why? If you haven’t read it, I would encourage you to. Unfortunately, I don’t have the link. Kev may be able to help there he seems to have read it. I could copy and paste it but I know that Kev frowns upon that so I will refrain but it is interesting nonetheless….
– Sue M.
Clone wrote:
“If mercury causes autism, then why are there unvaccinated autistic kids?
Wel what of it Sue? How could that be? If you say it’s environmental sources of mercury then I guess it never was the vaccines at all. Sticky wicket, as they say”.
– Why would that be a sticky wicket, Clone? Say for a minute it IS mercury which can trigger autism is a certain group of children (for purposes of discussion). Some children due to mother’s exposure (amalgams, fish, etc), child’s weak immune system, genetic factors, other heavy metal exposure, etc. . have a lower threshold of tolerance. They become autistic. Some other children may have less of a burden to begin with but that extra source from the vaccines pushes them over the edge…
– Listen, the above is a theory. I am not saying that this is the only plausible theory. I would ask, though… where’s the sticky wicket??
– Sue M.
It’s not a theory and barely qualifies as an hypothesis.
Let’s assume that environmental levels of mercury have been more or less constant for the last 10-20 years. We could even say that children today are exposed to more environmental sources of mercury today than they were 20 years ago, if you’d like. As the mercury content in vaccines has dropped in the last 5 years (tell me it hasn’t) then environmental sources would have to increase at the same rate to explain a steady rate of autism.
Now what about a fully vaccinated autistic child with an unvaccinated autistic sibling? Does that mean the environmental exposure exceeded thimerosal as a source in the second child? Doesn’t that make thimerosal a minor contributor? I guess what you are saying is avoiding vaccines doesn’t protect children from against autism. Vaccines do seem to protect against certain infectious disease so which carries the greater risk?
Can you, or anyone, guarantee to a parent considering more children, their next child won’t be autistic as long as they don’t vaccinate or only vaccinate with thimerosal free shots?
Clone wrote:
“Can you, or anyone, guarantee to a parent considering more children, their next child won’t be autistic as long as they don’t vaccinate or only vaccinate with thimerosal free shots”?
– No, I would never guarantee anything like this to a parent. Hopefully, I haven’t given that impression. I would suggest to them that limiting their child’s exposure to toxins is a very sound decision.
Clone wrote:
“Vaccines do seem to protect against certain infectious disease so which carries the greater risk”?
– Depends on the child. A child with food intolerances, reactions to previous vaccinations, excema, etc, etc. would most likely be at greater risk of a bad side effect of a vaccine (ie bowel disorder from mmr) than would a typical child. That particular child would need to be looked at differently than another infant with none of these issues.
– Sue M.
Sue:
Please define “typical child” and how this would be deduced medically prior to administering any immunizations?
Say What wrote:
“Please define “typical child†and how this would be deduced medically prior to administering any immunizations”?
– In the context of my above post, I mean “typical child” to be one who does not have food intolerances, no previous bad reactions to vaccines, no excema, etc. A pediatrician should be able to analyze a child’s medical records to see if there is any indication of the above medical concerns. Of course, this is providing that pediatrician has a clue…
– Sue M.
Thank you, Sue, that seems resonable. I guess I grew somewhat unclear on what you meant in the close of your paragraph, when you referenced an “infant”:
“That particular child would need to be looked at differently than another infant with none of these issues.”
So, I am unsure as to whether you are talking about a baby or a toddler or older — in terms of defining the particular infant/child as being ruled “typical.”
Sue,
If you go dig out the IDEA data which is available online you can see it for yourself.
The overall number of hadicapped kids in the system has been more or less constant for years. (school systems stats – the IDEA)
They are watching the numbers of retarded and SLI kids drop and the numbers of autistics kids raising like they are tied to each other. Nothing for them to freak about because they only care about the bottom line. “How many kids in the system?”
There are lots of good reasons that informed people roll their eyes and say, “what the heck are they talking about” when the mercury parents hit the air-waves and newsstands.
The thing is bureaucrats (I can never spell that right) don’t get up from their desks and say, “dang it! I’m a gonna go contact them at NBC an’ tell ’em that they’s a bunch of know nuthin’ dimwits for spreadin’ this epidemic nonsense!! No, I’ma gonna go tell ’em at the CDC not to worry they pretty heads.”
And the folks at the CDC were stupidly listening when pretty little Sally Bernard and Lyn Redwood and whoever else showed up and told them, “Lissen up y’all, we gots us an epidemic!! an’ we’s is thinkin’ that y’all caused it.”
The CDC gave these fools money! “OK,” they said, “here’s some money go do some research with it,” and they went and gave it to fellow leading light, mercury mom (has a gifted autistic child, remember?) Mady Hornig.
That’s where the CDC fell down on the job. In listening to a bunch of poised and wealthy nut-jobs. Excuse me. I don’t have much patience for the whole stinking throwing influence around thing.
Recently, there has been a sort of ugly exchange of emails between some members of the un-wealthy tax paying public and the stinkin’ elite “founding fathers” of the MIND. Its so interesting to see how some of the researchers are so owned by the wealthy stupid and selfish mercury dads. And I do mean wealthy, stupid and selfish. You gotta check out the emails…
They’ll probably hit the wider web eventually. The unwealthy tax payers have nothing to lose in exposing the corruption that they see.
The MIND is going to have to answer for this because these emails are going around the upper UC eschalon now and maybe the legal department. Those folks that can rearrange things at the MIND. Those folks aren’t owned by the mercury dads.
Ms. Clark wrote:
“That’s where the CDC fell down on the job. In listening to a bunch of poised and wealthy nut-jobs. Excuse me. I don’t have much patience for the whole stinking throwing influence around thing”.
– By nut-jobs you mean the people who advocated for the removal of thimerosal from vaccinations? You understand that it would not have been removed if not for these so-called nut-jobs, right? As for the numbers of mr vs autism (falling mr vs rising autism)… Again, I ask… why aren’t our “officials” putting everyone’s fears to rest then. According to you, it should be so easy to do.
Ms. Clark wrote:
“Its so interesting to see how some of the researchers are so owned by the wealthy stupid and selfish mercury dads. And I do mean wealthy, stupid and selfish. You gotta check out the emails…”
– I guess I’ll have to wait for the e-mails to understand what you are talking about… I just have a hard time believing that these mercury moms and dads have that much power over people. Come on. Nothing adds up with that theory, Camille. I think that you guys are starting to grasp at straws…
– Sue M.
Clearly Sue M. Is unaware of the kind of cash a lot of these mercury parents throw around.
And remember, kids, just because it makes a good conspiracy theory story (“HELP! The medical establishment is stealing childrens’ lives for no good reason!) doesn’t mean it’s TRUTH.
I have recently read something that one of the founding fathers wrote, to those whom he appears to consider his underlings, and it was horrid.
Kassiane wrote:
“Clearly Sue M. Is unaware of the kind of cash a lot of these mercury parents throw around.
And remember, kids, just because it makes a good conspiracy theory story (“HELP! The medical establishment is stealing childrens’ lives for no good reason!) doesn’t mean it’s TRUTH”.
– This is actually interesting. Practically everyday I hear new warnings about mercury emissions being dangerous and how they are being linked to neurological disorders (including autism). Then I hear new warnings about the mercury in seafood, including tuna fish. Then, of course the studies that come out about the dangers of lead to developing brains. To be honest, I expect the reports at this point and I don’t necessarily get all worked up over it. Thankfully.
Then I come to this blog and I see people who want to criticize groups such as SafeMinds who played a major role in eliminating thimerosal (mercury) from childhood vaccinations. You know, I am extremely grateful that for the past 2 flu seasons my children have not been exposed to thimerosal containing vaccinations despite my pediatricans push for them for my kids… I owe that to the people who came before me in this debate. Yet many of you are all up in arms about all this money they are throwing around. How they are soooooooo wealthy, blah, blah, blah… I guess if that’s what you want to focus on or if that’s all that you can be critical of… be my guest.
No, Kassiane, just because it makes a good conspiracy theory story doesn’t mean it’s TRUTH. You are correct there. What a profound statement. May I quote you?
– Sue M.
Did I read in the history if this insane mercury/autism mess that the government had already decided to take the mercury out of the vaccination schedule before the first mercury parents showed up?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=922834
Check it out. The scientists at the MIND under “parental supervision”. Too bad the “parents” in this case are fools.
I can’t explain why the officials have not looked at the various data that show that there has been NO epidemic.
You can see for it yourself, but you won’t do it will you, Sue? I figured out how to find the IDEA data and spent a few hours of my life tracking the numbers. I did it a year ago.
Make sure you watch the epidemic of kids with traumatic brain injury that surpasses the epidemic of autism for percentages. Then figure out why that is.
Oh, I keep forgetting, you won’t do it.
I’m watching the facade crumble over here in California. Heads up.
The MIND institute is asking itself if there’s been an “epidemic”…
WHY are they doing that??
Sue,
you wrote:
“As for the numbers of mr vs autism (falling mr vs rising autism)… Again, I ask… why aren’t our “officials†putting everyone’s fears to rest then. According to you, it should be so easy to do.”
No, that may not be true. For example, nothing in my training has taught me how to deal with circular logic. Those who employ it may have been sucessfully immunized against counter arguments. I can think of no positive outcome via this phenomena.
_”Translation: I used to think Fletcher’s opinion was important when it worked for me, now, I don’t value his opinion at all… he must be wrong.”_
Huh? Thats a logic gap, even for you Sue. The reason I don’t value his opinion as much is that he has no more access to science than anyone else – except for these ‘thousands’ of bits of evidence he won’t name or discuss. Hell, we could all go around saying we had proof but we won’t discuss it. Thats why its best to stick to peer reviewed journal published science Sue.
Two things:
1. Fletcher is a former government scientist who is now a paid expert witness for those suing drug companies. It would be shocking if he had an opinion other than “vaccines are bad”.
2. The AAP and CDC made their joint statement on thimerosal in 1999. SafeMinds was barely a twinkle in Lyn Redwood’s eye at that point. If Sue had actually READ the book she lovingly touts (you know, Evidence Of Harm) she wouldn’t make statement like “SafeMinds had a lot to do with drug companies taking thimerosal out of vaccines.” Because they haven’t.
“If Sue had actually READ the book she lovingly touts (you know, Evidence Of Harm) she wouldn’t make statement like “SafeMinds had a lot to do with drug companies taking thimerosal out of vaccines.†Because they haven’t.”
That last sentence may be quite true (although probably not in the way anonimouse intended). They (vaccine manufacturers) have not really taken the thimerosal out completely. It is still used in the manufacturing process of most vaccines, and if the company makes an effort to filter it out, they proclaim it “preservative-free.” While that is technically true — they did not use thimerosal as a preservative — there is a growing controversy as to the amount of thimerosal that remains in the finished product. I, for one, would like to see some independent testing by someone both sides can agree on as being above reproach so we can know just what the manufacturers mean when they say their products contain only a “trace” amount.”
As for the role of SafeMinds, it should be remembered that the powers that be only called for a voluntary phasing out of thimerosal, and have yet to issue any kind of recall. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that the manufacturers would have taken a far longer time in phasing out thimerosal’s use as a preservative had it not been for advocacy groups like SafeMinds.
Ms. Clark wrote:
“I can’t explain why the officials have not looked at the various data that show that there has been NO epidemic”.
– Try this. They tried to go that route. They prayed that it would pan out. Unfortunately for them it was a bust.
– Sue M.
Kev wrote:
“The reason I don’t value his opinion as much is that he has no more access to science than anyone else – except for these ‘thousands’ of bits of evidence he won’t name or discuss”.
– The reason that I have a problem with this is that you have no idea what this Dr. knows that you don’t… What if he actually has some evidence that you are not privy too? You’ve already tossed him aside. Again, so much for the importance of the science, Kev.
– Sue M.
Mouse wrote:
“1. Fletcher is a former government scientist who is now a paid expert witness for those suing drug companies. It would be shocking if he had an opinion other than “vaccines are badâ€.
– I will add him to the list of the conspiracy theorists.
Mouse wrote:
“2. The AAP and CDC made their joint statement on thimerosal in 1999. SafeMinds was barely a twinkle in Lyn Redwood’s eye at that point. If Sue had actually READ the book she lovingly touts (you know, Evidence Of Harm) she wouldn’t make statement like “SafeMinds had a lot to do with drug companies taking thimerosal out of vaccines.†Because they haven’t”.
– Mouse, I have news for you. If not for the pressure of parents groups, this issue would have been swept under the rug years ago. They would probably still be doing “investigations” about thimerosal. They would still be giving pharma companies amble time to remove the neurotoxin from vaccines. There would be no follow up… There would be nothing except some old file folder collecting dust somewhere. Think about it. These agencies are downplaying the whole thing now … imagine if they didn’t have any pressure?
– Sue M.
Wow, Sue. In one post you go from dismissing “conspiracy theories” to proposing one of your own.
Can you at least TRY to be logically consistent, even if such logic is illogical?
In other words, drug companies wouldn’t have taken thimerosal out of vaccines (even though several were already in the process of doing so) if Lyn Redwood and Sally(ie) Bernard hadn’t run in on their white horse and saved the day. You honestly believe that?
Mouse wrote:
“You honestly believe that”?
– What I believe is that due to the pressure placed on these government agencies by parental groups such as SafeMinds, there was finally some serious actions taken. Mouse, the FDA considered thimerosal too toxic to be put in over-the-counter products since the early 1980’s… What happened over the next 15 years? Nothing in the case of vaccines… I’m not saying that it was this huge intentional poisoning. I’m saying that these people were sitting back letting things happen in their own time. No real accountability. No sense of real urgency UNTIL they really got a kick in the ass to take a real serious look at it.
– Sue M.
Ya know, Al Gore invented the internet.
_”The reason that I have a problem with this is that you have no idea what this Dr. knows that you don’t… What if he actually has some evidence that you are not privy too? You’ve already tossed him aside. Again, so much for the importance of the science, Kev.”_
Yet again Sue, you expose your distressingly poor understanding of science and the scientific method. *All* reputable science exists in the public domain. It is published in science journals and undergoes peer review.
You’re absolutely right I have no idea what he knows or doesn’t know. Thats why I can’t attach much importance to what he claims based on that. By contrast, as you also have no idea what he knows or not, you seem to want to attach significance to his utterances based on who he is, not what he says.
When he actually discusses anything _new_ (which he hasn’t so far) then we can start to discuss whether that has merit or not.
Science is important. Empty vessels making noise aren’t.
Sue,
How can you know what’s in the pan (gold nuggets showing there hasn’t been an epidemic) if you refuse to look?
Never mind. You refuse to look.
I understand, you refuse to look.
The whole mercury hypothesis is evaporating in the real world and exists in a smaller and smaller bubble consisting of data floating around on Al Gore’s invention… though my second cousin once removed had a part in it’s invention…(yeah, I know, name dropping gets tedious).
🙂
Soon they mercury/chelation biz will be replaced by a new hypothesis that will be championed by the quacks. Somehow HBOT will be a part of it, lack of oxygen, something… fetal alcholol, PCB exposure, alien abduction… something else…
Ms. Clark wrote:
“You can see for it yourself, but you won’t do it will you, Sue? I figured out how to find the IDEA data and spent a few hours of my life tracking the numbers. I did it a year ago.
Make sure you watch the epidemic of kids with traumatic brain injury that surpasses the epidemic of autism for percentages. Then figure out why that is.
Oh, I keep forgetting, you won’t do it”.
– Do you still have these numbers? Link me to it, if you do. Or if you have a nifty graph which compares the two directly from IDEA or whatever, I’m all for it. How about something from the CDC, FDA or some other organization which would have an interest in this debate. There has to be something, right? I’m not trying to be a pain in the butt here but I’m not going to be spending a lot of time on graphing rates, etc… To be honest, it’s NOT my thing (at least I’ll admit it). So, until I get something more to go on then I will have to wait for the information. While I wait I will have to believe that if it were that easy, if it were that obvious (as you claim) — this whole thimerosal/autism debate would have been dead in the water years ago.
– Sue M.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5501a1.htm
The overall prevalence for mental retardation was 15.5 per 1,000 children in 1996 and 12.0 per 1,000 children in 2000 (Table 1). The decrease in prevalence of mental retardation from 1996 and 2000 was observed in all sex and racial populations. However, the highest decrease was observed among males and black children. For both study years, the prevalence for mental retardation was higher among males than females. The prevalence of mental retardation was more than twice as high for black children as for white children in 1996 and 2000. The highest prevalence for mental retardation was observed among black males in both study years compared with white males, black females, and white females (Table 1).
Sue,
You have to go to the Federal IDEA stats site and dig them out. I didn’t create a graph. Some of the numbers are on a very early Autism Diva entry. I wanted someone else to do it for me and no one was doing it… so I did it myself.
Now it’s your turn. Maybe it’s all turned around since I looked last.
You can go find out.
Or we can both whine really loud and maybe someone else will do it…..
I don’t know if someone has graphed the separate diagnoses categories over the years, maybe they have. You could email the Feds and ask them.