Mark Geier and David Geier: Carry On Misrepresenting

20 Jun

Less than a fortnight ago, Kathleen provided evidence that Geier and Geier were guilty of fallaciously misrepresenting themselves by claiming a false affiliation with George Washington University. She promised at the time that this was far from the end of the matter and now she reveals the second (but far from the last) of her evidence against the integrity and honesty of the Geier’s.

Both the abstract and text of Dr. Mark Geier and David Geier’s article in Hormone Research, A Clinical and Laboratory Evaluation of Methionine Cycle-Transsulfuration and Androgen Pathway Markers in Children with Autistic Disorders, indicated that, The Institutional Review Board of the Institute for Chronic Illnesses (Office for Human Research Protections, US Department of Health and Human Services IRB number: IRB00005375) approved the present study.

After a search for the IRB of the Institute for Chronic Illnesses, Kathleen found that the following people were memebrs of the IRB panel:

Mark Geier, David Geier, Lisa Sykes, Kelly Kerns, John Young, Anne Geier, Clifford Shoemaker

The two Geier’s are obvious. Anne Geier is Mark Geier’s wife. Lisa Sykes is parent to a child on the Lupron protocol. Dr Young is Mark Geier’s business partner, Kelly Kerns is a petitioner in the vaccine/autism lawsuit and Clifford Shoemaker is a vaccine injury lawyer. How very convenient. Go to Kathleen’s site to read the rest of this debacle.

UPDATE (24-06-06): Kathleen made another discovery about one of the above – John Young: It has just been called to my attention that John L. Young is not only an OB-GYN; his name appears on the Autism Research Institute’s list of DAN! practitioners. According to his ARI listing, Young completed an eight hour Intensive Training by the DAN! Physician Training Team at the 2006 DAN! conference in Washington, DC. He offers vitamin/mineral supplementation, essential fatty acids, gluten and casein-free diet, antifungal pharmaceuticals and nutriceuticals, heavy metal detoxification (i.e., chelation), antiviral medications, and last but not least, Lupron injections to autistic children.

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48 Responses to “Mark Geier and David Geier: Carry On Misrepresenting”

  1. EriK Nanstiel June 21, 2006 at 14:01 #

    Mark’s wife is “Clara” not that you care.

  2. Kev June 21, 2006 at 14:33 #

    Does she know she’s part of hubby’s self-appointed IRB? I wonder.

    Oh and by the way Erik – you know you told us all that the Geier’s had told you that the editing team had made a mistake about his student status? I’ve been having a very interesting email conversation with the editor of HR about that. As soon as its fully concluded, you can rest assured you’ll be the first to know.

  3. clone3g June 21, 2006 at 16:35 #

    Clara? Then who is Anne?

    See that’s the important part to Erik. Not the fake credentials or degrees, not the synthetic data or fictional IRB. His wife’s name.

    Would you let Clara inject your kid with Lupron Erik? She’s just as qualified as Anne or even Martina Navratilova.

  4. Ms Clark June 21, 2006 at 18:34 #

    You mean Geier has two wives? Do they both live in the manse in Silver Spring? Is there another son, too?

    Notice this is a multi-part Geier exposé of Kathleen’s? I wonder how many Geier scandals it will take to get Erik to kick the Geiers off of FAR FETCHED autism media? More to the point, I wonder how many scandals it will take to get Erik to admit he’s personally been boondoggled and has put his daughter’s health at risk with loads of Lupron injections.

    Erik has already admitted that he knows that there are no testosterone mercury sheets, but he keeps that video of the Geiers proclaiming their importance in autism available for other people to be misled by it.

  5. Kathleen Seidel June 21, 2006 at 19:11 #

    According to http://www.inteli.us, both Anne Geier and Clara Geier reside at the same address as Dr. Mark Geier and David Geier. Anne Geier is 59 years old; Clara is 92. My reasonable speculation that Anne Geier is Mark Geier’s wife was confirmed by a 2003 report from the 40th USTA Mid-Atlantic Section, which indicates that Mark and Anne Geier were sectional champions in their 2003 Husband-Wife Indoor Doubles tournament.

  6. Ms Clark June 21, 2006 at 19:26 #

    Well, Zeus, if Doc Geier can be married to a 94 year old woman, Clara Geier, then I guess anything can happen, maybe the whole SAFEMINDS, NAA, GR and Erik and Sue could fit into a tiny car.

    One internet people search site says that this bunch lives together:
    MARK R GEIER 58
    ANNE E GEIER 59
    CLARA GEIER 94
    DAVID A GEIER 25

    Now, conceivably, Mark could be married to Clara and David could be married to Anne… or Mark and Anne could be siblings, children of Clara, and maybe someone adopted David, but it seems more likely that Clara is divorced or widowed, the mother of Mark and Grandmother of David… mother-in-law to Anne… which would make Erik Nanstiel… uhm,

    wrong.

  7. Modern Maturity June 21, 2006 at 19:59 #

    So what’s 34 years difference in a loving relationship? I can see nothing at all unusual about young David being born to to a 69-year-mother.

    Remember, we’re talking incredible people here.

  8. GMAC June 21, 2006 at 20:38 #

    Hmmmm. Reminds me of a song I heard long ago.
    http://www.ziplo.com/grandpa.htm

  9. TheProbe June 21, 2006 at 22:17 #

    “So what’s 34 years difference in a loving relationship? I can see nothing at all unusual about young David being born to to a 69-year-mother.”

    Must have been all the pent-up/stored-up testosterone….

  10. clone3g June 21, 2006 at 22:55 #

    The Probe: “Must have been all the pent-up/stored-up testosterone….”

    Well, she’s pretty spry for her age and looks good in a Tennis skirt

  11. EriK Nanstiel June 22, 2006 at 14:04 #

    “Clara Geier” is what shows up on my caller ID when I talk to Dr. Geier. I wouldn’t have imagined that it could have been his mother. Whatever.

    David Geier told me about the confusion over his byline.., that an editor changed the byline. I would like to know what the editor tells you, and I’ll encourage David to explain his side of it further, if warranted. I’m bothered that it might appear that the Geiers aren’t on the up-and-up… and that if they’re not careful with how they publish their work…they may not be taken seriously. If they’re guilty of ANYTHING, it’s perhaps that they’ve taken shortcuts to get to publication. That’s just speculation on my part. I do not believe that it negates the validity of their findings.

    Look at Wakefield… we have independent replication of his work by other doctors doing the same research… but to some, it didn’t matter if he was right. It was his methods they’re attacking.

    That said, my daughter is doing WONDERFULLY on Lupron. She’s now dumping metals without the need for chelation, and her gut has healed completely from what we can tell. She’s finally been able to handle the occasional (albeit accidental) wheat and/or sugar-laden food without the horrible reactions she used to have. No more diarrhea and no more wild behavior. She is healthier than we’ve ever known her.

    She is much more focused these days. Her teachers keep asking us what we’re doing. And she’s demonstrating that she understands a far greater receptive vocabulary than she ever has before. I’m convinced that by lowering her testosterone, we’re restoring her glutathione pathway, allowing her to detox herself.

    One of the major problems we had with chelation was that we had not yet healed her gut prior to chelation. E-Coli and some other bad gut flora have the ability to remethylate mercury that was on its way out through the intestines, causing some reabsorption of that mercury. Since the sulfur in the chelators feed this bad flora… the chelator was, in essence, working against itself. So while we were getting SOME mercury over two years’ time, it just wasn’t enough. We were just recirculating metals in her system and exacerbating her methylation problems.

    We may never need to chelate again. We’ve verified (by testing her blood & urine every two weeks) that any regression in her behavior corresponds with spikes in her testosterone levels…and a subsequent drop in glutathione. When the testosterone is LOW (between zero and six ng/dcl), she does GREAT. When it’s 12 or higher… she does poorly.

    You can try to stop the Geiers, but they have enough children who have responded far beyond expectations that other doctors are taking notice and seriously investigating this. I won’t tell you who.

  12. Kev June 22, 2006 at 15:09 #

    _”“Clara Geier” is what shows up on my caller ID when I talk to Dr. Geier. I wouldn’t have imagined that it could have been his mother. Whatever.”_

    I see you’re as bothered about accuracy as ever.

    _”David Geier told me about the confusion over his byline.., that an editor changed the byline. I would like to know what the editor tells you, and I’ll encourage David to explain his side of it further, if warranted. I’m bothered that it might appear that the Geiers aren’t on the up-and-up… and that if they’re not careful with how they publish their work…they may not be taken seriously.”_

    Might appear? Erik, they’re not. So far, just about everything they’ve done has been wrong. As has most theings they’ve claimed.

    _”If they’re guilty of ANYTHING, it’s perhaps that they’ve taken shortcuts to get to publication. That’s just speculation on my part. I do not believe that it negates the validity of their findings.”_

    Of course you don’t. But it does. They’ve done a hell of a lot more than taken shortcuts to get to publication. Are you aware of what an IRB is and why its important? Are you ready to tell me yet what you write in your insurance claim form for your Lupron? Are you aware that it would appear that the Geier’s seem to be very close to transgressing _federal law_ in your country?

    _”Look at Wakefield… we have independent replication of his work by other doctors doing the same research… but to some, it didn’t matter if he was right. It was his methods they’re attacking.”_

    Where is this independant verification? Krigsman? No study of his has been published yet. One was done four years ago and never published. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that this new one never gets published either.

    _”We may never need to chelate again. We’ve verified (by testing her blood & urine every two weeks) that any regression in her behavior corresponds with spikes in her testosterone levels…and a subsequent drop in glutathione. When the testosterone is LOW (between zero and six ng/dcl), she does GREAT. When it’s 12 or higher… she does poorly.”_

    ‘We’ being the Geiers? The guys who are selling you Lupron?

    _”You can try to stop the Geiers, but they have enough children who have responded far beyond expectations that other doctors are taking notice and seriously investigating this. I won’t tell you who.”_

    No, don’t tell us who. Would that be because they don’t exist?

    Honestly Erik we could go through that whole spiel and replace ‘lupron’ with ‘chelation’ and ‘testosterone’ with ‘mercury’ and it would’ve been exactly what you said a year ago. Where does it stop?

  13. Joseph June 22, 2006 at 15:46 #

    I’m bothered that it might appear that the Geiers aren’t on the up-and-up… and that if they’re not careful with how they publish their work…they may not be taken seriously.

    May not be taken seriously? LOL. I think they have bigger things to worry about right now – particularly if the Feds take notice.

    If they’re guilty of ANYTHING, it’s perhaps that they’ve taken shortcuts to get to publication.

    Shortcuts?

    That’s just speculation on my part.

    Clearly.

    I do not believe that it negates the validity of their findings.

    Credibility is important in science, because researchers can theoretically claim anything about what they’ve found.

    That aside, Geier’s findings have been shown to be critically flawed repeatedly.

  14. Jennifer June 22, 2006 at 17:14 #

    EriK – any scientific paper is sent as a “proof” to the authors for correction before it is published. If the editors “made a mistake” and changed the credentials, then it is the responsibility of the authors to find that error. The fault for any errors lies with the authors and not with the journal.

    Moreover, If it was really as simple as that, the journal would have simply published an erratum (which notes the error) and not have withdrawn the paper. It’s a very unusual thing that happened there – the paper was removed from PubMed, and its DOI was given to another paper. That doesn’t happen everyday, and takes a lot of work on behalf of the editor.

    How long do you think it should be before the paper reappears if the Geiers are right? They already have the paper typeset, it should already be back by now.

  15. Jennifer June 22, 2006 at 17:18 #

    EriK said: “That said, my daughter is doing WONDERFULLY on Lupron. She’s now dumping metals without the need for chelation”

    How do you know she isn’t better just because you’ve stopped chelation? Did you give the kid a break between one treatment and the next? Maybe you should stop everything for a few weeks and see what happens.

  16. Ruth June 22, 2006 at 17:50 #

    Erik,

    I would be interested in what the informed consent document for this protocol looked like. How much background was given? What potential side effects were discussed?
    When I was still publishing as a chemist, the editors always misspelled my name, but it was my duty to correct this on the proofs. Erik, many people at this site have actually published scientific papers, and understand this is not a simple error.

  17. Joseph June 22, 2006 at 17:53 #

    How do you know she isn’t better just because you’ve stopped chelation?

    It’s not impossible that DMSA causes neurological impairment. No study has claimed this, but one study raised the possiblity. Another study documented more scalp rashes and an “unanticipated excess of trauma”.

  18. clone3g June 22, 2006 at 18:58 #

    Erik said: E-Coli and some other bad gut flora have the ability to remethylate mercury that was on its way out through the intestines, causing some reabsorption of that mercury. Since the sulfur in the chelators feed this bad flora… the chelator was, in essence, working against itself[…]

    Erik, everything you say sounds like an infomercial for DAN! and the Geiers. I know you think it all fits together the way you’ve described but the reality is that this is all bits and pieces of ideas stuck together over the years by various wannabe autism researchers, scammers, and parents desperate for a cure.

    Have you ever wondered why you and your daughter get special attention from the Geiers? Could it be that they’ve tapped in to a free source of advertising and you are unwittingly generating income for these guys? Face it, you’re being used my friend.

  19. McGuffin June 22, 2006 at 19:24 #

    Erik said: “…other doctors are taking notice and seriously investigating this…”

    Please let us know if any of these above-mentioned doctors are pediatric endocrinologists.

  20. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) June 22, 2006 at 21:00 #

    Erik Nanstiel: “Look at Wakefield… we have independent replication of his work by other doctors doing the same research… but to some, it didn’t matter if he was right. It was his methods they’re attacking.”

    As I (and many others) have tried to explain to David H (who refuses to understand what we say and then has the frigging gall to call *me* ‘arrogant’!)… that replication is far from independent.

    Erik Nanstiel: “David Geier told me about the confusion over his byline.., that an editor changed the byline.”

    Jennifer: “The fault for any errors lies with the authors and not with the journal.”

    Ruth: “When I was still publishing as a chemist, the editors always misspelled my name, but it was my duty to correct this on the proofs. Erik, many people at this site have actually published scientific papers, and understand this is not a simple error.”

    And I’ll add my name to this list of people telling you what is what in scientific publishing, Erik. I’m an Associate Editor for a journal (Good Autism Practice), and I’m also a published author. The fact is, as Jennifer and Ruth have both pointed out, proofs are sent to the authors for the authors to check for errors immediately prior to going to print. When I was sent my proofs, I had to check through for accuracy, simply because someone else had done the editing. My job as author did not end with my submission of the manuscript… I still had the proofs to check. My job as associate editor at this point is to be aware of any research in my country (Finland, which is where I live), and bring it to the attention of my bosses, Glenys and Hugh. People may submit papers to me, and I may end up reviewing them prior to submitting them to G&H, and then – on acceptance by the journal – the authors will get proofs back which *they* should check. Responsibility for checking for errors rests with authors, which is the reason for sending them proofs in the first place. If the Geiers can’t understand this, they should not be submitting for publication.

  21. clone3g June 23, 2006 at 01:23 #

    Jennifer said: How do you know she isn’t better just because you’ve stopped chelation? Did you give the kid a break between one treatment and the next?

    http://www.paains.org.uk/autism_forum/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=3480

    quantumerik: “We decide to pursue this, initially, because of miranda’s aggressive behavior during chelation. When she’s not chelated… her aggression subsides. We learned that excess testosterone (stored) was being released when we chelate her. Apparently, as determined by the Geiers, Mercury and testosterone actually BIND together (weakly) and form long chains, which then form “sheets.” These sheets are too large to easily leave the brain…as they won’t pass the blood-brain barrier. Chelation DOES break up these sheets… but not very well with the mercury in the brain…”

  22. Kassiane June 23, 2006 at 01:38 #

    We do all know that Lupron doesn’t hit little girls’ testosterone, right?

    In little girls, Lupron causes, essentially, menopause. Hot flashes and all.

    Not like chemically castrating little boys is a good idea either…but the blatant STUPIDITY shown by the followers of the Geiers, and the blantant lack of ETHICS shown by the Geiers, is really frightening.

  23. Ruth June 23, 2006 at 03:14 #

    So is there any proof chelating agents can pass the blood-brain barrier?

    Yes, Kassiane, everyone talks as though Lupron inhibited testosterone directly, instead of acting on hormones released by the pituitary gland. Actually, there should be a rise in testosterone for boys for a week or two, followed by a decrease. In my last job, I had to track the adverse events patients had on meds like this-acceptable for metastatic cancer, not for imaginary sheets.

    During the witch hunts, people thought burning witches was helping them by freeing them from their demons. Some parents will go to similar extremes to free their kid from autism.

  24. Dad Of Cameron June 23, 2006 at 03:29 #

    Ruth: “So is there any proof chelating agents can pass the blood-brain barrier?”

    Well, Ruth you could go straight to EriK’s nifty website, and watch the new Jim Adams video – where Jim Adams states that DMSA does NOT cross the blood-brain barrier.

    Of course that’s not proof, but that should be good enough for EriK.

  25. anonimouse June 23, 2006 at 03:41 #

    I’m not sure why people are still trying to fight with Erik Nanstiel. These anti-mercury quacks could be sacrificing fetal pigs at midnight while reading passages from the Da Vinci Code and drinking gold salt elixirs, and it wouldn’t mean a lick. He’s a true believer, and there ain’t a damn thing that’s going to change his mind.

  26. Orac June 23, 2006 at 03:51 #

    Kev to Erik:

    “They’ve done a hell of a lot more than taken shortcuts to get to publication. Are you aware of what an IRB is and why its important?”

    I discussed what an IRB is and why it is important in my take on Kathleen’s expose.

  27. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) June 23, 2006 at 06:08 #

    Anonimouse….

    Sadly, you are correct in what you say.

  28. Ruth June 23, 2006 at 11:58 #

    DOC

    Yeah, I would be surprised if a molecule like DMSA crossed the barrier based on structure alone, but that is not actual proof, just a place to start. As for transdermal chelation-are any of you old enough to remember when DMSO was being used for joint pain in the 1970’s? Couldn’t make a placebo, because DMSO gives you a taste of garlic on contact. If any of these skin creams were actually getting across, the breath should smell of sulfur (my favorite element).
    IRB’s are supposed to review studies each year for safety. Do we need to ask if the Geiers do this? Will they present their data to the FDA?

  29. Ruth June 23, 2006 at 15:53 #

    Orac has posted some interesting stuff about Dr. Geier as a young researcher at NIH-

  30. ebohlman June 23, 2006 at 18:55 #

    Erik: As Kassianne and Ruth have pointed out, testosterone synthesis in females isn’t GnRH-mediated and shouldn’t be affected by Lupron. Have you actually been measuring your daughter’s testosterone levels via blood tests, or are you using some possibly subjective proxy measures when you say that her behavior corresponds to her testosterone levels? If in fact you have been measuring the levels correctly and they have gone down with Lupron, something is seriously wrong and she needs to be seen by a pediatric endocrinologist promptly to rule out things like a testosterone-secreting tumor.

    I’m quite serious about this; you’ve told us your daughter had unusually high testosterone levels, and then you’ve chosen to attempt to bring them down by using a therapy that shouldn’t even work (once again, in females testosterone is produced in the adrenal glands via a pathway that doesn’t depend on the peptide hormones regulated by Lupron). You haven’t given us any indication that the cause of those high levels was ever properly investigated medically (i.e. by a pediatric endocrinologist). Something’s just wrong here.

  31. clone3g June 23, 2006 at 20:26 #

    I wonder if the Geiers have already used Lupron on a few boys with Klinefelter syndrome (47,XXY) without realizing the source of elevated testosterone and precocious puberty may be mediastinal germ cell tumors.

    Naah, a geneticist would never miss a thing like that.

  32. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) June 24, 2006 at 00:30 #

    clone3g: “Naah, a geneticist would never miss a thing like that.”

    Well, a *real* one might not…. (my ex’s expertise was in genetics….) but a Geier replica genetobollocksist might!

  33. Ruth June 24, 2006 at 00:53 #

    Polycystic ovarian syndrome causes elevated androgens in girls, and sometimes precocious puberty as well, odd as that seems. As they grow older, they often develop type II diabetes. Looking at an endocrinology book, there are lots of reasons for elevated androgens. A good doc of course would do tests to rule these out

  34. Dimmer Trills June 24, 2006 at 02:42 #

    Srinath is a piece of work He’s saying that secretin worked by altering the glutatione pathway. He throws in weird phrases such as: “runner bells” and “summer tails” because he’s not allowed to accuse people of being “pharma shills.” Get it? “hammer drill” = “pharma shill” He really comes across as a dim bulb. Kev told him that there was no body of people all in agreement called “the neurodiverse.” He countered calling Kevin a liar because Kevin links to neurodiversity.com and neurodiversity.com links to Kevin’s site. He suggested that since placebos “work” sometimes then they should use placebos for vaccines.

    http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=36942#36942

    But he’s a perfect customer for the Geiers, none too bright.

    sign me – not a pharma shill just because I think the Geiers are idiots

  35. Hey Zeus is my Homeboy June 24, 2006 at 02:52 #

    genetobollocksist

    I’m looking for a wiki page on that. Hilarious.

    Re: Dimmer Till, I never thought about the selective targeting of customers before until you brought this up. It’s actually quite scary. I wonder if there are quacks targeting those of African heritage for sickle cell anemia altie woo “cures”. They’d be slammed as racists right off the bat.

    They’re looking for an Easy Mark. Looks like they’ve found a few.

  36. Kathleen Seidel June 24, 2006 at 04:20 #

    “Hammer drills,” “drummer bills,” or anything else that ends with “-ills” — they’re euphemisms for “pharma shills,” a pointless, presumptuous, inflammatory label that has deservedly become verboten on that discussion board.

  37. ebohlman June 24, 2006 at 04:45 #

    Ah, autism quackery now features Cockney rhyming slang. Perhaps we should now be referring to the most egregious offenders (such as the ones responsible for epidemics of vaccine-preventable diseases) as “autism berks” (sorry about the implied sexism).

  38. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) June 24, 2006 at 08:07 #

    What about “wuckfits” as rhyming slang???? for…. “Hg-autism-wuckfit”?

  39. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) June 24, 2006 at 08:08 #

    HZIMHB: “‘genetobollocksist’ I’m looking for a wiki page on that. Hilarious.”

    Won’t find one… I made that up 🙂

    Autistic -> neologistic 😀

  40. Anne June 24, 2006 at 17:52 #

    How about merchant bankers?

  41. GMAC June 24, 2006 at 19:17 #

    Ah, srinath. The man who states that all autism is mercury poisoning, who admits to spending a half-hour per day with his son, and considers “morning wood” and body hair a symptom of excess testosterone.

    ebohlman: forgive my American ignorance, but what’s a berk?

    ETA–Thanks, Kev!

  42. Kev June 24, 2006 at 19:21 #

    Berk : silly person

  43. little bo peep June 24, 2006 at 20:08 #

    Srinath ended up taking on the entire message board with that ludicrous autism=mercury theory. Even the party faithful became exasperated with his half baked notions.

    http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6482

  44. HN June 24, 2006 at 21:11 #

    Uh, I only glanced through that thread and a couple of others. While one respondent was joking about needing chemical enhancement to read his ravings… I was thinking “srinath” was actually under the influence of something!

  45. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) June 24, 2006 at 21:52 #

    GMAC: “Ah, srinath. The man who states that all autism is mercury poisoning, who admits to spending a half-hour per day with his son, and considers “morning wood” and body hair a symptom of excess testosterone.”

    A class 1 pillock, then?

  46. David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending) June 25, 2006 at 00:50 #

    Kev: “UPDATE (24-06-06): Kathleen made another discovery about one of the above – John Young: It has just been called to my attention that John L. Young is not only an OB-GYN; his name appears on the Autism Research Institute’s list of DAN! practitioners. According to his ARI listing, Young completed an eight hour Intensive Training by the DAN! Physician Training Team at the 2006 DAN! conference in Washington, DC. He offers vitamin/mineral supplementation, essential fatty acids, gluten and casein-free diet, antifungal pharmaceuticals and nutriceuticals, heavy metal detoxification (i.e., chelation), antiviral medications, and last but not least, Lupron injections to autistic children.”

    Oh fuck!

    Well, if I take a few days to read a book on brain surgery then, I can go and operate on people’s heads….. I can’t get why a medic from obs&gynae wants to start giving idiotic “remedies” like that!

  47. little bo peep June 25, 2006 at 02:47 #

    Hey, in medieval times, barbers were the medics. Everyone wants to feel important, right? Education be damned!

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