David Kirby/Arthur Allen Debate Part IV

4 Feb

There’s Something About California!

So says David Kirby in the second part of his look at CDDS numbers. Lest we forget, whilst the California numbers seemed to support the thiomersal hypothesis, there was _nothing_ unusual about California. Now they don’t, there apparently is.

Right.

So, Kirby says there are seven reasons why ‘there’s something about California’. The first one is fascinating:

Wow. That’s pure, unadulterated bull. Sorry to be so blunt but it is. Far from ‘phoning people up to see what they had in the fridge’, here’s what the minutes of the meeting in which this was raised actually said:

….N.I.P. estimated the amount of thimerosal in provider vaccine inventories in a survey conducted September 20, 2001 to February 20, 2002. The targets were a convenience sample of providers getting site visits from public health officials across the country. Inventory counts were done of all refrigerators for D.T.a.P., Hib, and hep B pediatric vaccines. The thimerosal classification was based on the lot number information, which was verified by the manufacturers. In September 2001, 225 sites were canvassed, and 447 by February 2002…..During the visits, the providers were surveyed about thimerosal-containing vaccines in their inventories. Of the 447 interviews, 83.5 percent reported no thimerosal-containing vaccines in stock at any time since October 2001.

So, no Mr Kirby no one ‘picked up the phone and asked – do you have any mercury in your refrigerator’. Site visits. Public health officials went out and counted. No one’s claiming its iron clad but its hardly throw away either.

But it is, however, nice to know what Kirby’s opinion on phone call based surveys are. I’ll remember that when Brad launches the fruits of his recent labour.

Kirby’s six other points are the same old same old about RhoGAM (not a vaccine and recently and recently trounced in court), Flu shots in mercury. Thats an odd one. Maybe someone could explain to me how a voluntary flu shot, given once a year that contains about a 1/8th of the thiomersal that vaccines used to can cause autism rates to go _up_ ?

What else? Oh yeah – immigration and population grew in CA and hey – maybe some of those durn immigrants got vaccinated twice? Cus – y’know – immigrants ain’t too smart at counting.

Then to add to the illogical fear of foreigners David ‘yellow peril’ Kirby brings out his piéce de resistance – Asian coal. Yeah. Damned Asians and their coal. Grrrrr. Sorry – what? Even if it is true, what the hell has it got to do with thiomersal?

Oh and he mentions that Aluminium might play some unspecified part in some unspecified way maybe.

Truly, in the annals of debating history, DK will go down as the ‘shuck and jive’ expert. When in doubt, change the subject, make up some stuff and show some cool looking graphs really, really quickly.

26 Responses to “David Kirby/Arthur Allen Debate Part IV”

  1. Ms. Clark February 5, 2007 at 01:20 #

    Kirby is such a dork. Notice how he takes a superior stance and talks down to Arthur Allen, he pauses to explain what “convenience sample” and makes it look all the more trivial.

  2. Bartholomew Cubbins February 5, 2007 at 01:28 #

    If I were a “money-grubbing” HMO, the last thing I’d want is a huge stockpile of shots (thimerosal-containing or otherwise) sitting around in a fridge at any point. That’s not a good way to manage logistics and money in a large organization. It’s funny though, from personal experience, that is exactly the way the US government works (stockpile bullets/beans and replace when expires).

    So if HMOs are indeed trying to make money, one would think that they’d have a better logistics system in place than “here’s your pallet of shots that you’ll slowly use up over the next 2 years”.

    Wow. That’s pure, unadulterated bull. Sorry to be so blunt but it is.

    That ain’t blunt, that’s the gentle truth.

  3. _Arthur February 5, 2007 at 02:23 #

    I think the proper term is “Audit”. The vaccines stocks of 447 providers were physically audited and compared with manufacturers lot numbers to determine which proportion of their vaccines doses still contained thimerosal preservatives. 83.5% of the providers had already a stock of 100% of the new vaccine by October 2001, and the others had a small number of remaining doses of the old formula.

    Seems to me that the transition from the old formula to the new one went smoothly. I even expect that a few organisms destroyed their remaining doses of the old vaccine by January 1, 2002, to simplify inventory.

    One last remark is there was no scientifically known danger associated with the thimerosal-preseved vaccines. The change of formula was undertaken to assuage the general public fears of “mercury”.

    As it were, the fearmongers are still trying to leverage the remaining thimerosal in some flu vaccines, and trying to find substitutes bogeymen, like aluminium, dilithium and custard in vaccines.

    They are still blaming both vaccines and “environmental mercury” at large, because they cannot admit that they haven’t got a clue, and that they were WRONG.

    As they were, and _are_ WRONG to subject their children to chemical chelation. No children should be subjected to chelation unless suffering from acute heavy metal poisoning, AS VERIFIED BY BLOOD SAMPLES.

  4. Joel Smith February 5, 2007 at 03:19 #

    Arthur,

    Blood samples aren’t enough. You also need a reputable lab and reputable doctor. And even in true cases of metal poisoning it’s not necessarily wise to chelate.

  5. _Arthur February 5, 2007 at 07:59 #

    Agreed. Chelation is used in rare cases of radioactive heavy metal poisoning. ISTR the russian spy poisoned with polunium was chelated, but the doctors didn’t expect it would save him.
    Chelation is NOT used in garden-variety heavy metal intoxication, like, say, eating a mercury thermometer, when those were still in use.

    I’m certainly not the first to point out the irony of people who consider both vaccines and/or micrograms of thimerosal as unsafe, despite the accumulated scientific evidence, and then subject their children to milligrams of chelating agent, repeatedly, a chemical with numerous *known* side effects, and with, if you apply their own logic, utterly unknown long-term side effects.

  6. Ms. Clark February 5, 2007 at 08:04 #

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-2-4/51249.html

    Off topic, but maybe another nail in the coffin of the thimerosal/MMR hype.

    New Discoveries in Autism Research
    Discovery of antibodies may be key

    By Joshua Philipp

    Epoch Times San Diego Staff

    Feb 04, 2007

    SAN DIEGO―David Amaral, Ph,D., of the M.I.N.D. Institute at UC Davis, gave a presentation on January 25 at Vista Hill where he discussed new discoveries in autism research.

    He was invited on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of Vista Hill, a non-profit corporation dedicated to bringing psychiatric services to San Diego and whose services include helping disabled children and those diagnosed with autism.

    Dr. Amaral is the Director of Research at the M.I.N.D. (Medical Investigation of Neurodevelopmental Disorders) Institute and he is involved in the largest and most comprehensive study of autism called the Autism Phenome Project.

    “We are really excited to pursue this line of research, because frankly when we first started the M.I.N.D. Institute 5 or 6 years ago, I thought it was going to be decades before we could do anything practical. If this pans out, we might actually be preventing kids from becoming autistic in the next decade.” says Amaral. “The quality of research is getting better, the tools are getting better, and I think that within the next few years, perhaps even sooner, we will see some really fundamental changes in our thinking about autism.”

    Autism is a medical disorder which affects the brain and other systems of the body. Nearly 1 in every 166 children born today has autism. To date, it’s been difficult for researchers to understand autism since it has many different forms.

    Some people have seizures, while others do not. Some have gastrointestinal problems, some have severe developmental delays, and some have normal or even advanced IQs, while others do not. Individuals with autism typically have difficulty with social interaction, poor communication skills, and exhibit repetitive behavior patterns.

    Currently there is no cure for autism, and it is still unclear what the exact cause is.

    The latest research at the M.I.N.D. Institute has been on a specific auto-antibody. It is known that if a mother has one child with autism, the likelihood of having a second child with autism goes way up. In a study done with about 300 mothers, it was found that 23% of women who have 2 or more children with autism have antibodies which are believed to be directed against brain tissue and lock up brain development. These antibodies are not found in mothers with the same number of typically developing children. It is known that if the antibodies are in the mother’s circulation, they can cross the placenta and get into the babies brain.

    In order to study this field, purified antibodies were taken from mothers with children who have autism and also samples from mothers who had the same number of children without autism. They then injected the antibodies into pregnant Rhesus Monkeys. The theory was that if these antibodies were the actual cause of the pathology, then they should see some evidence in the offspring of the monkeys.

    After the animals were born, they observed their social behavior. The monkeys with antibodies from the mothers without autistic children and the monkeys with no antibodies were fine. When they analyzed the animals, they showed no abnormalities in social behavior. However, the monkeys who had received the antibodies from the mothers who had children with autism began to exhibit whole body repetitive movements, a common symptom of autism.

    Some of the monkeys would do back flips repetitively for tens of seconds and sometimes minutes on end. Others would start twirling repetitively for several minutes. They had never seen this particular behavior in the animals before. Many kids with autism also exhibit repetitive behaviors, sometimes for minutes on end.

    “Although this is very preliminary, we are very excited about this. You can make an animal with social impairments similar to autism. If you just wanted to perturb social behavior, just take their moms away and raise them in a nursery, but that wouldn’t be autism. What we are excited about here is that this started from something which was different in the mom’s with kids with autism. When we imposed it on the animals we saw pathological behavior. We still don’t know what the antibodies are, but we are trying to figure that out,” explains Amaral.

    “If we can detect these antibodies and it really turns out to be a risk factor, we can do something about it with known medical interventions. For example, we could even remove the anti-bodies from the blood of the mother. Perhaps then, the child who would have been autistic because they had been exposed to these antibodies would not become autistic,” says Amaral.

  7. David N. Andrews M. Ed. (Distinction) February 5, 2007 at 09:22 #

    “So, no Mr Kirby no one ‘picked up the phone and asked – do you have any mercury in your refrigerator’. Site visits. Public health officials went out and counted. No one’s claiming its iron clad but its hardly throw away either.”

    So, David Kirby has actually demostrated himself not only to be a piss-poor journalist (of any sort, let alone investigative… he’s a Brian Deer wanna-be but lacks the chops to actually do it, methinks!).

    “Truly, in the annals of debating history, DK will go down as the ‘shuck and jive’ expert.”

    No he won’t. He’ll go down as a YAFILB.

  8. _Arthur February 5, 2007 at 12:41 #

    Yes, David, I don’t blame Kirby (much) for that one, because the word _survey_ was used instead of _Audit_. Obviously he’s used to the concept of people lying in phone surveys, so his mistake was natural.

    I may have made a mistake myself, in Canada thimerosal was not removed out of public safety concerns (like elsewhere it is known as safe), but because another vaccines was combined to the multi-vaccine, a live, attenuated virus strain that was incompatible with the thimerosal preservative.

    The thimerosal was eliminated from children vaccines for that reason in … 1996. Since then, as the Fombonne study has shown, the number of newly diagnosed autism cases in Quebec has not diminished, but had kept creeping up.

    Quebec could also blame California brush fires, windborne mercury from .. Ohio coal, or iPod batteries being cremated, but, for myself, I’d rather blame it all on New Coke.

  9. Ruth February 5, 2007 at 12:45 #

    I reviewed my tox book to see if aluminum was more toxic than I remembered. Hmmm, fine powder toxic to lungs, yeah, most fine powders give you stuff like silicosis. Nothing new there. It is the most common metal on earth, kidda hard to avoid it. I mean they put in baking powder (but since these kids are on the GFCf diet, they don’t get baked goods. Only toxic effect I can find is in people on dialysis for 5 years or more. The Al salts can build up in people with non-functioning kidneys. When my sister was on dialysis, it was the P/Ca that was messed up, not something chelation is going to help. Nope, I’m just not terrified by aluminum.

  10. Joseph February 5, 2007 at 15:01 #

    Obviously he’s used to the concept of people lying in phone surveys, so his mistake was natural.

    After looking at many of the “facts” David Kirby spouts, I would say it’s unlikely this was a mistake.

  11. _Arthur February 5, 2007 at 15:08 #

    Ruth, theoretically, you can get some aluminium if you boil your tea water in ancient aluminium cookware.
    Also, some quack “cure” for autism or other varied conditions is Zeolith, a powdered rock, which happen to be aluminium-based.

  12. Ruth February 5, 2007 at 15:21 #

    Since aluminium is the 3rd most common element, it is hard to avoid it. The quack cures have an amazing amount of lead and mercury, as well as ill-defined herbals. I loved pharmacognosy, I treat herbs with the respect they deserve. I don’t think it is a good idea to dump 50 pills of various supplements into a child, autistic or not.

  13. anonimouse February 5, 2007 at 16:42 #

    The flu shot gambit is so funny I can’t stand it, considering that:

    1. Only about half of kids and a quarter of pregnant mothers actually get the recommended shot.

    2. Kids in most states can ONLY get thim-free vaccines, as the federal programs that states buy from can only sell the thimerosal-free version.

    3. Thimerosal-containing vaccines are illegal in California.

    Kirby doesn’t even bother to research the SafeMinds(tm) Talking Points anymore, does he? He just gets Blaxill or Redwood on the line, they feed him some nonsense, and he goes on TV and in public spouting this nonsense.

  14. _Arthur February 5, 2007 at 17:25 #

    Kirny is just trying to salvage a theory that didn’t pan out, which doesn’t give the theory any more support.

    It’s a pity that they pushed parents to inflict chelating agents upon their children, on the basis of an unscientific hunch, and now they still don’t have the integrity to admit they were wrong all along.

  15. HN February 5, 2007 at 19:50 #

    Whenever I commented to parents on listserv that their fear of any vaccine (especially one like MMR which has been used in the USA since the 1970s) seemed a little strange when they were pumping their kids full of oral chelators… I usually got total silence or nasty grams.

    Even after one of those parents did comment that the oral chelation drugs did make her kid feel yucky.

    I got comments like this:
    “We get into this argument everytime you start writing about mercury. I just returned from the DAN! conference where about 1000 people heard many doctors and researchers talk of the problems caused by thimerisol. There is a lot of research showing that it is causing our autism epidemic. You can beleive what you want but please don’t stop people from researching vaccines and thimerisol before vaccinating their kids. People like you are dangerous. I just wish someone had educated me on the possible problems of vaccinations before i had my son vaccinated. He is now autistic. The Autism Research Institute is a REAL place and you are showing your ignorance by your statement. It is difficult enough to be a parent of an autistic child but to hear others treat us like we are spewing garbage is very upsetting. We are talking about the truth and soon it will proven.”

    That was over two years ago… I am still waiting for that research that shows a definite connection between thimerosal and autism.

  16. anonimouse February 5, 2007 at 23:05 #

    You can beleive what you want but please don’t stop people from researching vaccines and thimerisol before vaccinating their kids. People like you are dangerous. I just wish someone had educated me on the possible problems of vaccinations before i had my son vaccinated.

    I love this quote. Basically, it’s dangerous for anyone to question the autism-mercury link if they oppose it. If they support the link, they can ask any question and make any outrageous statement or claim they want. The double standards are ridiculous.

  17. meringue February 6, 2007 at 00:28 #

    The Hg malicia finally have something like a real blog. Looks like it will be all politics since that’s what ACHAMP is about: achampblog(dot)org The entry about some guy named Schwartz mentions “Unstrange Minds”
    Who at ACHAMP is writing the blog entries? Bob Krakow is my guess. What do you think? Will they allow comments contrary to the malicia world view? I doubt it. Not that people should troll it, but the malicia is never able to answer the hard questions, why should they start now?

  18. Brian Deer February 6, 2007 at 12:44 #

    I just got this one. Quite a neat compression of the argument. I don’t recommend taking up the points here, as life’s too short. But lest we forget:

    “Mr Deer,
    To inject mercury into babies (or anyone else) ON PURPOSE is just plain stupid! Mercury poisoning victims show the exact set of behaviors as autistic children. It wasn’t until the early 1990’s that we saw a dramatic increase in autism, when the number of vaccines containing thimerisol given to babies were raised to about 27 from about three in the 1930’s. There are plenty of studies on both sides of this argument with plenty of data and statistics. But figures lie and liars figure!
    You have chosen to side with the Pharma giants who only have one thing in mind: profits! That is why they put the second most toxic chemical known to man in a toxic mixture of viruses– then said it was OK to inject the brain-injuring concoction into babies– to extend shelf life of the product, thus increasing profits. It is pure evil and you are on the wrong side! This type of corruption is helping bring down Western civilization as we know it, and you are helping to do exactly that. What is your motivation for taking sides?
    The ones who authorised the thimerisol should be held accountable!!
    Victor”

  19. David N. Andrews M. Ed. (Distinction) February 6, 2007 at 17:33 #

    Victor, who should know better by now: “Mercury poisoning victims show the exact set of behaviors as autistic children.”

    Thanks for that one, Brian. The stupid will be with us always, basically.

    Mercury poisoned people do not show exactly the same behaviours as autistic people. They show entirely different behaviours from autistic people… they behave like… well… mercury poisoned people.

    Which is *not* how autistics behave (unless we get poisoned by people trying to make a profit on ignorance).

  20. clone3g February 6, 2007 at 19:12 #

    This type of corruption is helping bring down Western civilization as we know it, and you are helping to do exactly that.

    Damn it Brian. Why are you trying to bring down Western civilization (as we know it)?

  21. Kev February 6, 2007 at 19:14 #

    Yeah Brian, what’s up with that? I hate it when people try and bring down Western Civilisation (as we know it).

  22. anonimouse February 6, 2007 at 19:44 #

    It wasn’t until the early 1990’s that we saw a dramatic increase in autism, when the number of vaccines containing thimerisol given to babies were raised to about 27 from about three in the 1930’s.

    And since then, the number of vaccines containing thimerosal is down, to, what, one?

    By this logic, autism should be plummeting as we speak. But it isn’t, is it?

  23. Ms. Clark February 6, 2007 at 20:02 #

    I just want to thank Brian Deer for working so hard to bring down Western civilization (as we know it), because … it takes some of the pressure off me… it’s a big job and I’m only one disorganized woman.

    What about Eastern civilization? Who’s working on that one? Big pharma? The Chinese haven’t declared war yet have they? Can someone get Kirby on the phone and check on that?

  24. Friend in California February 6, 2007 at 20:47 #

    I thought Western Civilization meant California, dude.

  25. Jim February 7, 2007 at 08:59 #

    Dang, did i miss the bringing down of Western Civ (AWKI) again? I knew i should’ve TiVo’d it.

  26. BostonSam February 8, 2007 at 07:46 #

    That’s the beauty of quackery, you get not only your own opinion but also your own facts.

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