In one sense I have a perspective that most of my online friends (and not so friends) do not when it comes to Cho. I’m not American, I don’t live in America, I don’t have the familiarity of living in a country where it is ‘the norm’ to carry handguns. We had Dunblane and Hungerford and they were appalling, heart-rending tragedies but in this instance, in this context, I am outside looking in. I have no right to debate the gun-control issue that sweeps the US at times like this.
However, in another context, I share a perspective with most of my online friends (and not so friends). Autism.
It is said that Cho was autistic. It is said that he was bullied. It is said that he had an unsupportive family.
On the claim of autism I would like to say that I am a skeptic. Show me the proof. Show me better proof than a handful of sentences from a family that are glad he’s dead. Let me hear from someone who is experienced with autism (preferably someone who is themselves autistic but failing that, a parent or a medical professional) who spent a lot of time with Cho and can say, yup, I’m pretty sure he was autistic. Failing that my opinion on Cho’s autism is: Bullshit.
But let’s say for the sake of argument that Cho was established to be autistic beyond a shadow of a doubt. What about the fact that he was bullied? All those awful things he related in his address. All the pain in his voice and all the anguish. What about the cavalier abandonment of Cho by his family?
My opinion on that is: So?
No one should be bullied. Ever. It’s a crime against the fabric of a persons confidence and even their identity.
No one should be abandoned by their family. No one.
But people are. Every day. They don’t pull out twin handguns and mow innocent kids and teachers down.
Cho’s first victim was a girl who didn’t fancy him. In between his first two victims and the rest of them he went home and shot his video.
This wasn’t the anguished act of a man who simply couldn’t take any more. This was the premeditated act, carefully planned and executed, of killing people he didn’t like.
Autistic or not, bullied or not, abandoned or not: killing people is wrong. That’s the bottom line. Neurodiversity, to me, is about respect for all neurological conditions. However, respect does not and should never extend to finding reasons to excuse or even understand a murderer. Cho showed no respect for his victims and I have no respect for a man who’s solution to his problems was to slaughter people.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Well said.
Perfect, Kev. Outsider view or not, you are perfectly correct. Thanks.
Very well said!
I live in the DC area, and there have been things about the shooting on the local news that I don’t think have had much national/international airtime.
One of the things that has been talked about here is the fact that another recent graduate of that same VA high school shot and killed three police officers in a random act of violence. It was a horrible story, all of the officers simply getting into their cars at the beginning of a shift. He then shot himself.
Maybe Cho just wanted to be in the headlines, even if it took death to get there.
The bullying argument doesn’t hold much weight with me. After an exhaustive review of his writings and history, many forensic psychiatrists believe that Eric Harris (Columbine) was a pure sociopath. That bullied or not, he would have done some terrible things in his life. There is also evidence that Harris was the bully more that he was the victim.
It saddens me that the speculation about autism and Cho could make parents even more anxious about diagnosis, vaccines and supposedly climbing rates.
It has been rather horrifying to see so many people use this tragedy as a vehicle for their own social/political agenda.
Not the least horrifying were the number of chelationistas who immediately began speculation on how “mercury toxic” Cho must have been.
I cannot claim to have encyclopedic knowledge of the myriad manifestations of autism, but premeditated multiple homicide seems more than a bit out of the realm of autistic behavior. To be sure, autistic people do occasionally lash out at other people without any discernible provocation, but I have not heard of such premeditation.
Of course, there will be those who blame guns (auto-loading, magazine-fed handguns have been around since 1907), easy access to guns (much less so now than in the past, even in the US), societal stress (present since the origins of society, I imagine) and bullying (ditto) for Cho’s rampage. I suspect that these answers are wrong, for the reasons I have laid out above.
Was Cho “mentally ill” – decidedly so! Were his actions preventable? Only with the benefit of hindsight.
I think that when a person commits such an act of hideous violence as Cho did, there is no way that we (at least, those of us not contemplating a similar act) can understand “why”. In Cho’s world – on the day of the crime – what he was about to do made sense to him. Imagine what it would take for you to be in a similar frame of mind.
Prometheus
The problem I have is, I know someone who almost did this back in the seventies. I know this person extremely well. I know exactly why she almost did this, what her state of mind and such were, because we have talked about it extensively. By “almost” I mean that she had planned everything out and was busy gathering the equipment to do so before everything turned around.
And she is not a soulless monster. She is one of the most compassionate people I know, and you would never know for an instant that she had once contemplated doing this, it would not cross your mind because that way of thinking is totally alien to her now. But not forgotten to her. She remembers every time something like this happens. And she knows how evil it is and at the same time knows intimately the mindset — not born of sociopathy, not born of “mental illness”, but born of a very distorted view on the world that is capable of changing — that brought her close to doing the same thing.
For all we know Cho could have been too, if he’d noticed something in time. You say he’s not worth understanding, well I guess my friend isn’t either, and neither am I come to that (given that I’ve experienced a version of the same mindset that just didn’t happen to branch into killing people, and many people do experience that exact mindset but don’t take it in that direction) but this sort of thing will keep happening. I have been sickened by the instant psychiatrization and pathologization of people who commit evil acts such as this one — and make no mistake that it’s evil. But to shove this guy into a different category from the rest of us, as fast as possible, seems to me a way of escaping the potential for evil in all of us.
I do not know where to put this message.
But mother and I would appreciate if you hear mother talk in autismpodcast about RPM.
It would answer some doubts about her method. The quality of sound is not a good one because she is talking through a telephone.
It would be good to hear her because it is always others who talk about her method.
You have every right to have negative views about her and her method. She would not mind. She says by now she has a thick skin.
No, this is not an advertisement. It is just a request to hear it directly from her. She has been shown as a different person in Strange Son.
Regards,
Tito Rajarshi Mukhopadhyay
Thanks, Tito. I was surprised (at listening to the podcast) at how much acceptance of autism was in your mother’s point of view.
Madam Clark,
Thank you.
Now how about some ‘fun’ debate on these lines. Friendly debate I mean…
The Creator has placed all the different heavenly bodies of stars, planets, comets, galaxies and possibilities all around the Cosmos in their respective places so that He could stimulate His mind watching them spin and watching them spin and watching them spin.
He is believed to invite those who worked very hard in their lives, to deserve His invitation to join Him and watch all the bodies spin and spin and spin.
I watch the blades of the fan spin and spin and spin. That is because the Creator created me in His image.
My Creator is Autistic! And He is order not disorder.
Regards
Tito Rajarshi Mukhopadhyay
My Creator has aspects of autism and of non-autism and of ways of thinking and feeling we can’t find words for. He loves everyone and wants everyone to be happy. I don’t think he wants everyone in heaven with him, but he wants some to stay on the spinning earth and watch spinning fans and running water and the light sparkling on the surface of water and…
🙂
I too am skeptical about his autism. But autism doesn’t give anybody a moral benefit of the doubt either. Evil is an equal opportunity destroyer.
Cho was however proven to be mentally ill. And he had a history of refusing treatment.
I don’t think there was any way to help someone like Cho. I also don’t think there is a suitable way to protect ourselves from the likes of him through legislation without sacrificing our freedoms.
I must tell you though that carrying firearms was not the norm where he was. He committed his murders and armed assaults in a Gun Free Zone.
I wish that campus was not gun free. Then perhaps somebody would have stopped him from continuing his rampage. When that campus was declared a gun free zone, the onus of security was shifted from individuals to the university. The university did not adequately handle that burden. I do think that many campuses will take security more seriously now.
Believe me friend, this could happen in your neighborhood too. This stuff should scare us all.
I’m not going to school your government about the rights of personal protection. But I do hope that English Universities put some serious security in place very soon.
Very nicely put, BWH. I couldn’t agree more.
BWH – I did make a generalisation about the gun issue there for which I apologise. I didn’t even know until this whole thing that there were things in the US such as gun free zones.
Believe me, it worries me :o)
I’m going to post some more about this soon discussing your points and some interesting mail I received on this subject as well.
I too am of the belief that had there been guns allowed and carried on the campus, Cho proberly would have been stopped short of the total casualty number and may even have been deterred from doing anything at all.
Though I don’t think this means everyone needs to be on a heightened sense of alert all the time though. Statistically, even in the US, a person is more likely to be killed by a meteor hitting them while driving than being gunned down at school/college/university.
We’re not expecting something like this to happen in the UK either, it might but it’s unlikely. Dunblane is proberly the only tradgedy anyone can remember here. General gun crime has risen though since the handgun ban, which proberly needs a re-think.
Likewise on the gun issue. I live in a state with a lot of guns, very lax gun laws (for instance, anyone who can own a firearm can carry a concealed firearm), and very little gun violence.
I don’t think the issue is “mental illness” though and that’s barking way up the wrong tree. Refusing treatment is probably because of how sucky the treatment usually is (indeed, some of his writings seemed recognizable to me and my friend both as potential references to that), not because there’s something wrong with him. (Not that there’s nothing wrong with him.) And “proven mentally ill” is a big fuzzy area, it really does not take that much to get declared a “danger to self or others”, especially when they want to commit you and that phrase is the way the law is written. (I once got myself legally declared a “danger to self” because my lips were chapped and bleeding.)
I decidedly avoid all psychiatric treatment and I probably have more of a psych history (and more times declared a danger to people) than Cho does, and I don’t think I’m a danger to anyone, nor does anyone who currently provides me services through the developmental system. People who are declared a “danger to self and others” or “proven mentally ill” (I am in both categories I’m sure) and avoid psych treatment are no more the problem than autistic people are.
Asian in general reflected by what media mainstream has said, “a poor, sad, sick”. This poor, sad, and sick Cho is no different than his group; poor, sad and sick Korean or poor, sad and sick Asian. Imagine that happened in this beautiful and glorious America.
Let me ask Seung-Hui Cho these, Did you killed them (32 victims) because you can’t get laid? no white girl would date you? All the jocks in HS or VT judged you by what or how you look or sound (or RACE?).
What is wrong? American society that is PREJUDICE toward you? American Culture that prohibits Asian male to date any race but supporting Asian females to better their future by marrying white or black dudes? American Media mainstream that only pictures Asian male as either a Jackie Chan (a funny Kung Fu Actor but can’t speak english) or a John Hung (a mentally challanged looking Asian-wannabe American Idol-but can’t bang). There are many question that I want to ask you but you already dead! I felt your angers, I heard that cry before, and I been rejected as man, I hates those people that made fun of you. I been there before Seung-Hui, I moved on, and now I am in overseas serving the basic values that you hates and killed, Freedom. I am sorry for not being there and confront what you can’t, I am sorry for not taking you to see other Asian girls that might more receptive toward your behaviour, I am sorry for not defending you when those jocks made fun of your deep voice, and I am sorry for not telling you that stripper is waisting your money by not dancing for the hour that you have paid. I am sorry!
Asian- American? European-American? African-American? Native-American? Interesting.
When I and if I want to become American, I would want it because of its broad views contributed by each of these American minds and thoughts.
I would, because it is the land of Mark Twain, Walt Whitman, Hemingway and Abraham Lincoln.
I would want it because of its global views outside the boundaries of Asian, European, African and Native walls.
Regards,
Tito Rajarshi Mukhopadhyay
There are many transient things that could contribute to my saying this, but I keep coming back to it, anyway.
That America no longer exists, if it ever did, and there’s plenty of factual historical evidence to show it never did.
It sounded good in speeches. It looked good in paper. Putting it into practice proved to be too much hard work. So much hard work, in fact, that the ideological walls you speak of are becoming real walls on the border and have already become real walls around the sheltered communities of the (truly) privileged.
Sometimes we can separate a ‘social goal’ from an ‘individual goal’.
America allows unbounded individual goals.
I have no problem following a social restriction. I come from a country, which has social restriction of ‘caste system’. And I still pride myself as a Brahmin by caste.
Good or bad, the social system worked for centuries. Yes it hurt many castes which called themselves under priviledged.
The ‘otherisation’ will always be there as long as there is ‘we vs us’. I am autistic and he is neurotypical. Otherisation is a social fact.
Individual goals have no social bindings.
That is why the great works towards perfections could be achieved in the past and in the present by scientists and artists and businessmen.
Regards,
Tito Rajarshi Mukhopadhyay
America does exist and it is a great place to live. I am an American and I am very proud to be one. I could enjoy being a citizen in a number of other countries; there are some really great places in this world. I choose America. I don’t blame America for every bad thing that happens in the world. I hold myself accountable for my actions and hold others accountable for theirs.
My life has wonderful living here. It has not been easy, there have been severe disappointments, difficult personal events to overcome and a lot of hard work. But I would not down play all of the opportunities and support that have been made available to me.
Our universities are open to all nationalities; take a walk on any campus, you will see the diversity, not the least of which consists of Asian-Americans. Could we be better? Certainly, and we each have the opportunity to shape and influence that reform.
No amount of hand wringing or fault finding with society can excuse the rotten thing the VT shooter did to innocent people.
I wholeheartedly agree, AV and Tito. All systems of government are flawed, but I think ours is pretty darn good. It is all about personal responsibility and having a system that allows (not guarantees, allows)an individual to realize their aspirations if they are willing to put their heart and soul into it. There are many great countries in this world, and the U.S. has its place among them.
Andrew, I was wondering when somebody was going to say what you said … I almost posted something about that to Kristina’s blog, but then didn’t. It goes without saying that there is no excuse for what Cho did. But I think it is true that Asian college students have to contend with some seriously emasculating stereotypes.
Anne,
I agree with the punishing stereotypes of Asians, I think the stereotype of nice little chinese girlie or nice little japese wifey is changing, Asian women are portrayed as more assertive. And as a person who was on a campus with lots and lots and lots of young people from China, Taiwan, Japan, the Phillipines, Viet Nam, Korea … and lots of people whose parents came from those countries and who grew up here (and I have lots of friends in these groups) then there are the “mixed” folks who would probably be called Asian even if only one parent is…
I THINK that the emasculating stereotype of Asian males is changing.
I know of marriages between Asian fellows and white women. It’s too bad Cho didn’t have a better support system, and of course, it was hideous beyond hideous what he did. It’s sad that he could get his hands on guns in the mental state he was in.
Me, I’m studying Mandarin. I like Chinese people. I’ve seen some very nice looking Chinese (and other Asian) men. Whoa, and I don’t mean on TV or in the Movies. [I like lots of kinds of people, so long as they leave me alone most of the time, 🙂 ]
I didn’t know Cho, but was teased and pressuered in school, the same as Cho so I feel for him, and the victims and the familyies. Im very sad they’er gone.
Hi Penny – could you show me where the info is that reveals Cho was teased and pressured in school? I haven’t found anything conclusive yet and would like to read some.
On the claim of autism I would like to say that I am a skeptic. Show me the proof. Show me better proof than a handful of sentences from a family that are glad he’s dead. Let me hear from someone who is experienced with autism (preferably someone who is themselves autistic but failing that, a parent or a medical professional) who spent a lot of time with Cho and can say, yup, I’m pretty sure he was autistic. Failing that my opinion on Cho’s autism is: Bullshit.
Say what?
Is that not your signature on a petition at autistics.org written by Amanda, Joel, Phil and Laura titled “The Dangers of Public Speaking” that a documented dxes of autism should not be provided as proof when publically speaking on behalf of the autism community ….
I am suprised to read you want documented proof on Cho but any Tom, Dick or Harry, dxed or self-dxed or whatever can get up at a conference and say whatever and it is to be written in stone and no proof of dxes is needed here.
What exactly is your position?
Besides hypocritical that is.
Donna – where does it say that Cho was ‘publically speaking on behalf of the autism community’?
What is your position, besides stupidity that is?
What is your position, besides stupidity that is?
Kevin, that is a very immature response first off. Is this what you teach your 3 children when they disagree with friends or yourself? Attack the person instead of the issue? Not good Kevin!
Are these not your words on your blog
The underlying motive for Cho’s actions according to lots of people is this bullying element. Is there any actual clear evidence that he was bullied? I don’t mean that rant he sent to get his posthumous 15mins of fame, I mean actual evidence.
Why are you so gung ho on Cho providing proof of bullying but yet on the autism hub no one who has blogged on being bullied had to provide proof that they were bullied for you accept their bullying at face value…
Sort of the same stance you have on the petition really.
Oh wait, on the petition no proof of an autism dxes is needed.
_”Kevin, that is a very immature response first off. Is this what you teach your 3 children when they disagree with friends or yourself? Attack the person instead of the issue? Not good Kevin!”_
Consequences toots. You are immature to me, thats how I’ll respond. I have no time or inclination to suffer fools gladly.
_”Why are you so gung ho on Cho providing proof of bullying but yet on the autism hub no one who has blogged on being bullied had to provide proof that they were bullied for you accept their bullying at face value”_
Donna, get your head out of your arse.
Speaking publicly is in no way comparable to taking out a gun and shooting people dead. Extraordinary actions require extraordinary proof.