I am beginning to wonder if National Autism Association are actually capable of discussing autism without lying any more. Its becoming more and more blatant. Today, they have released a press release of support for Andrew Wakefield which is simply bizarre:
Parents and advocacy groups around the globe are asking England’s General Medical Council (GMC) to cancel the “fitness to practice†inquiry that begins today against Dr. Andy Wakefield, and Professors Walker-Smith and Murch. Advocates say the GMC should instead be asking why so many kids are sick, especially in light of an apparently suppressed analysis showing that autism rates in England are as high as 1 in 58. The medical establishment is being criticized for doing little to find the cause, treat the kids, or prevent new cases.
Uh, no, no they’re not. Parents around the world (of whom I am one) are _not_ asking the GMC to cancel the hearings against Andrew Wakefield. I have read numerous letters, comments in blogs and on forums from parents who are quite happy to see the GMC conduct an inquiry into Wakefield’s behaviour.
An what the hell is this ‘suppressed analysis’ rubbish? Its not suppressed at all. The leaked study was not published and according to the lead author:
So, what are the facts on autism? Does the one-in-58 figure hold up? Baron-Cohen says their study of Cambridgeshire children, which has been running for five years, comes out with a range of figures from one in 58, to one in 200, depending on various factors. The draft report, he says, “is as accurate as jottings in a notebookâ€.
The NAA – and anyone who really seriously believes this twaddle – really need to take a long hard look at their motives. Why are they doing this? They _know_ the claim that the data from Baron-Cohen’s study is suppressed is rubbish. What this press release is is simply propaganda. Why are the NAA purposefully lying?
And they continue:
In the first of 5000 cases to be heard in a special vaccine court in the US last month, evidence presented demonstrated that 12-year old Michelle Cedillo began regressing into autism just a week after her MMR vaccination at 15 months. The plausible cause was a persistent measles infection which took hold through an immune system weakened by mercury in vaccines administered prior to the MMR.
Well, the NAA must’ve been reading a different set of transcripts to me. The evidence presented, utilising the video evidence, and interpreted by one of the worlds leading diagnostic authorities on autism clearly showed Michelle Cedillo was autistic way before she had her MMR jabs. It was also clearly demonstrated that the evidence presented to support the assertion that MMR was a ‘plausible cause’ of autism was a joke. The MMR/autism theory revolves around the idea of measles from the MMR travelling to the gut then the brain and causing damage that results in autism. Without measles being present, there is no MMR/autism hypothesis.
Here’s the sworn testimony of Stephen Bustin, _the_ world expert in the technique Wakefield’s lab of choice screwed up:
What I immediately observed was that they had forgotten to do the RT step…….If you detect a target that is apparently measles virus in the absence of an RT step by definition it can’t be measles virus because it has to be DNA. It’s a very simple concept. At least it is to me. It’s not to everyone else……[b]ecause measles virus doesn’t exist as a DNA molecule in nature, they cannot be detecting measles virus….
We need to be absolutely clear about this. This isn’t an _opinion_ Bustin was expressing. These were findings. He was in the O’Leary lab for (if I recall correctly) about 1,000 hours.
Wakefield _never found measles virus_ .
Then it gets really surreal:
The charges originated from internet blogger Brian Deer, who many parents have suggested may be linked to the pharmaceutical industry. “This is nothing more than a witch hunt brought against scientists willing to undertake ground-breaking research challenging the assumption that autism is an inherited untreatable psychiatric disorder that cannot be prevented. Implicating the safety of vaccines such as MMR isn’t acceptable to drug companies or government officials who want to protect the vaccine program itself at the cost of the health of children,†said Mr. Bono.
Brian’s an internet blogger? Weird. last I hears he was a freelance journalist. Certainly the readers of his Times pieces and Channel 4 television reports would think so.
Mr. Bono also needs to internalise a few basic facts.
1) The MMR hypothesis has been on the table since ’97. So far there has been absolutely no valid research supporting the idea that MMR causes autism or contributes to the development of autism in any way. If there was, why was it not presented at the recent Cedillo hearing?
2) Since ’97 the MMR uptake fell to nearly 80% at one point. If, as the NAA suggest, autism has skyrocketed to 1 in 58 then how is it that MMR uptake has plummeted whilst autism rates have skyrocketed.
3) I would ask these many parents that the NAA know to back up their allegation that Brian Deer is linked to the pharmaceutical industry. I’m a parent. I don’t think Brian is a big pharma shill. I also think its a particularly pathetic whiny little stab.
4) This is not a witch hunt. This is a look at a man who _has_ put the health of children at risk. Measles and Mumps have increased four fold since ’97. One English child and several Irish kids died from Measles. Approx 12% of measles sufferers required hospitalisation.
Andrew Wakefield hid the results that he didn’t like. Here is Nick Chadwick on the original Lancet paper:
Q So you personally tested while you were in Dr. Wakefield’s lab gut biopsy material, CSF and PBMCs?
A Yes, that’s right.Q And all the results were either negative, or if they were positive it always turned out that they were false positives?
A Yes, that’s correct.Q Did you inform Dr. Wakefield of the negative results?
A Yes. Yes.
Andrew Wakefield conducted poor science. He hid the results that he knew would scupper his poor science. Children have died and have been hospitalised as a result of this appalling dereliction of medical duty.
Left Brain Right Brain 
I really tire of the folks who come and post “MMR/thimerosal/germs cause autism… and the reason is because I said so. So there!”
Not one link to real research. And for some reason the public health sectors of several countries, scientists in several international universities, medical professionals on several continents, the World Health Organization, and even the parents who started http://www.pkids.org are all in some kind of conspiracy these few “lone maverick scientists”.
I’m not buying that for a moment. Especially after seeing the photo of the NAA headquarters.
“This case will be medicine’s Watergate. The truth will come out in the end.”
http://news.independent.co.uk/health/article2776140.ece
MMR scare doctor ‘paid children £5 for blood samples’
By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
Published: 17 July 2007
Nine years after he triggered one of the biggest health scares of recent times, Andrew Wakefield appeared before a disciplinary panel of the General Medical Council accused of paying children £5 to take their blood samples at his son’s birthday party.
The doctor who suggested the MMR vaccine might cause autism, leading to a collapse in immunisation levels nationwide, was accused of showing “callous disregard for the distress and pain” he knew or ought to have known the children might suffer as a result. It was one of a litany of charges against Dr Wakefield and his two former colleagues, Professors Simon Murch and John Walker Smith, who are fighting to defend their professional reputations. If found guilty of serious professional misconduct in the case, which is scheduled to last 15 weeks, they could be struck off the medical register.
Outside yesterday’s hearing at the GMC’s office in London, parents of autistic children and campaigners waved placards and cheered as Dr Wakefield and his wife, Carmel, arrived – an unusual reversal when accused doctors are usually jeered or even attacked.
A 10ft banner read: “We’re with Wakefield – crucified for helping sick kids.” Others proclaimed: “For the sake of the children – leave these doctors alone.” Carnations sent by supporters in the US – one for every child with autism – were lined up on the pavement.
David Thrower, from Warrington, who said his 20-year-old son became autistic after having MMR at the age of four, claimed: “This case will be medicine’s Watergate. The truth will come out in the end.”
A group of Royal Colleges and other medical bodies issued a statement yesterday saying that the vaccine “protects children” and that a “large body of scientific evidence” showed no link with autism.
Inside the building, the disciplinary panel was told that the charges focused on ethical aspects of the research and not on whether there is a link between MMR and autism. It heard that Dr Wakefield took blood from his son’s friends without ethics committee approval, in an inappropriate social setting and while offering financial inducement. He was accused of abusing his position of trust and bringing the medical profession into disrepute.
The blood was used in research, ultimately published in The Lancet in March 1998, that suggested there could be a link between inflammatory bowel disease and autism. At a press conference to launch the study at London’s Royal Free Hospital, where the three doctors then worked, Dr Wakefield claimed the triple MMR vaccine might be the cause of both conditions and advised parents to give the vaccines separately.
He is alleged to have given one child a drug that was being tested as a measles vaccine when he did not have the qualifications to do so and had not gained ethical approval. The child was the son of a colleague with whom Dr Wakefield planned to set up a firm called Immunospecifics Biotechnologies to manufacture the vaccine.
It was also alleged that 11 children involved in the research were subjected to a series of invasive tests, including colonoscopies and lumbar punctures. This was contrary to their best clinical interests and Dr Wakefield did not have the “requisite paediatric qualifications” nor had sought the right approval for the tests.
All three doctors deny the charges. The hearing continues.
Raymond, I have given and attended many birthday parties. There have been activities and themes that have been good, and others that were disasters. The swimming parties were usually quite good, but the clown themed one given another parent was a scary for one child who was afraid of clowns. In my own house we played a CD of Beatrice Potter books, only to have a hyperlexic kindergarten aged guest start marching around the house reciting the books word for word (he also knew all the dialog to “Totoro”, along with drawing bits of the movie that looked like he was a professional animator — a pretty talented autistic kid!).
Never once did it ever occur to me that bringing out needles and drawing blood would be great birthday party activity.
Is this something you find acceptable? Do you find it acceptable that Wakefield laughed and joked about the fainting children?
Whatever happened to that paper published in the Lancet in 1998?
HN
Blood tests are done a lot on adults ……….and children. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness who doesn’t believe in blood tests and donations?
By the way, Vijendra Singh, PhD did blood tests on children with autism and found elevated measles antibody titers in 80% of the children he tested. I suppose he is just as bad as Andrew Wakefield according to all you rocket scientists like Brian Deer.
By the way, Vijendra Singh received an O. Spurgeon English Humanitarian Award in recognition of his contributions to human welfare.[4]
Per………………
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijendra_K._Singh
What Humanitarian Award did Brian Deer get???????
Several other scientists, including Fujinami, say MV antibodies aren’t elevated in autistic children but I thought antibodies are a good thing. Antibodies indicate a protective immune response, don’t they? So if autistic kids have elevated MV antibodies they probably aren’t immune suppressed, right?
You mean I have to be a Jehovah’s Witness to object to kids being literally needled at a birthday party?
Actually, all three of my kids have been part of research programs at the local university. They all involved a review by an ethics board before they even asked parents permission. I also had to read and sign a very long release. None of these programs involved needles. They were mostly behavioral studies where my kids got to play with an evaluator, some toys on a table or look at stripes on a placard to see if that was a good way to test eye-sight… Or the latest one which involved one child being tracked from 6th through 9th grades with interviews of the child and the parent separately (checking for stress, depression, relationships and other common things that happen to adolescents).
I would have been appalled if I went to a kid’s birthday party to find someone wanting to stick the kids with needles. I do not think my feelings on the matter are out of the norm.
Why are you trotting out that Singh Wiki page for again? Why wasn’t he called as a witness for the Cedillos last month? They were desperate for good witnesses… ending up with paid experts who had elevated claims of affiliation (can I claim to be a member of the staff of the university where I will attend a lecture tonight?).
What real evidence do you have to show the measles vaccine causes autism? Where are the numbers that show autism increased in the USA with the immunization initiatives starting in the early 1970s (the MMR was licensed in 1971)?
Remember, I actually WAS a rocket scientist (I analyzed the effect of noise from a missile engine on the aircraft it might have been launched from, it was a concept that did not fly)… So I am going to need more than a Wiki page. Try something with the same quality as this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=1461690
“What Humanitarian Award did Brian Deer get???????”
What the #$%!! does that have to do with anything? Did Wakefield?
Oh…No he just absconded to the U.S., hid for 10 years, and still hasn’t proven shit. Oh…wait…there’s a study in publication. Right?
Do you people have a clue as to how to stay on point? Vijendra Singh…what a joke.
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijendra_K._Singh”
That Wikipedia article is begging for a {{npov}} tag, some {{fact}} tags and various corrections.
I already told Ray he had to update that Wiki page just for the dead links. I figured since he was pushing it, that he must have been one of the authors.
Methinks if Dr Singh’s reported findings had any relevance to anything [nb, eg, autism isn’t a demylinating “condition”] then they would have been introduced in the Cedillo case. But they weren’t.
Dr Singh, IMO, is just somebody to whom one changes the subject, as an alternative to confronting the collapse of the MMR -> autism claims.
Joan, Nigel. This position:
_”I have read thousands of articles and blogs about this subject and I am still shocked that people are still wanting to ignore the fact that adverse reactions can happen from vaccines. No vaccine is 100 percent safe, if they were 100 percent safe “Why do we have The Vaccine Damage Payment Unit in Britainâ€.”_
is totally correct. And for your information, no one on this blog, or any others I’ve read that basically agree with my position, state that any vaccine is 100% safe. No medical procedure is 100% safe.
What you are doing is, however, hypothesising that because no vaccine is safe, that there is evidence that MMR causes autism, and for the purposes of this blog that I run that’s all I’m interested in – do vaccines cause autism? Not, do vaccines have a less than 100% safety record, not, do vaccines have adverse affects but simply, do vaccines cause autism.
The answer, based on all valid science and legal testimony is ‘no’. I would ask you both – have you read the testimony of Nick Chadwick and Stephen Bustin? Between them they dismantle the idea that Wakefield – and anyone else who used the O’Leary lab – ever found measles virus in their family members gut/brain. They also establish that Wakefield knew his Lancet results were false. What do you think about this? What’s your take?
PLEASE READ:
There’s a lot of comments going straight to Akismet Hell (Akismet is a spam catcher). In order to prevent this and ensure your comments make it through please:
1) No more than 2 links per comment
2) Avoid swear words linked to sexual slang
3) Avoid words that are associated with porn
I’m not saying you need to be puritanical just that you need to avoid patterns that might be interpreted by a piece of software as spam.
_”It was a suggestion. Learn to deal with it in a public blog area.”_
This isn’t a public arena, its my blog. You’re here by my good graces. Behave like you would when you’re invited into a persons home or go elsewhere.
_”Yes indeed – but not the petition. That hasn’t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.”_
Really? You mean aside from The Scotsman, The Guardian, The Sun and being all over the Internet? Come on Andy.
_”Both a mothers and a fathers signature are valid.”_
I think you’re missing my point Andy. Read what I wrote.
_”“This petition isn’t about supporting sick children,†Er…yes it is. Try reading it.
“its a show of support for Andrew Wakefield.†Yes, it’s this as well.”_
Hmm, sorry, I don’t buy that. This is about Wakefield. If it was about sick children why has it only be launched on the eve of the GMC hearing?
_”Not stupid at all. I’ve seen the attacks on parents with damaged children on this blog and it’s a disgrace.”_
Parents aren’t automatically saints Andy. How about you point me to some specific instances that you find disgraceful?
_”That’s 9503 signatures now based mainly on word of mouth. There are lots of professionals and doctors signatures on there as well. The National Autism Association supports him too.”_
THe NAA are not people I would want supporting any cause of mine. They are proven liars. You still seem to be missing the point that 9000 signatures equates to about 7% of the UK autism/parent community.
_” What were all those thousands of flowers from America doing outside the GMC building then? And those boards full of messages? You might not like it, but that’s the way it is.”_
Again, you are missing the point. If you want to say that a percentage of the 9000 sigs are from US people then you have even less you can attribute to the UK, that takes your overall representation back down, not up.
_”One last thing – why are all those children ill? Not just with autism, but serious medical conditions. Why won’t the government investigate them properly? I look forward to your clever reasoning with alacrity.”_
I have no idea. I really hope someone conducts some good science into that question. None has been done so far.
However, we need to be clear: good science has considered MMR and there is simply nothing to that hypothesis. We also need to consider the idea that the fact that these kids are autistic and the fact they are ill are two separate things.
Vijendra Singh found abnormally high levels in children with autism that wasn’t found in normal children he tested. Also they children tested positive on myelin basic protein antibodies again not found in normal children indicating an autoimmune disorder in these children.
What is the matter with you people??? Do you like discriminating against our children and families because we have children with disabilities and we are trying to find treatments and/or cure to help them? That we want this autism epidemic to end so more kids and families don’t have to suffer with children that grow up and beat their heads against the wall or bite, kick, scratch, head-butt, pull hair of family members and those people they come in contact with? Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site?
Go ahead and absolve vaccines but this autism epidemic will not stop because people want to put their heads in the ground on this issue. The proof will be all the kids like my son who will be put in group homes, institutions and residential centers. The cost for this will be reflected in taxes in the US and UK and when people turn around and see money coming out of their pocket to pay for all these kids over a lifetime, it won’t be a laughing matter like you people think it is.
So go ahead discrimate against our kids and families. That is what you PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers are best at. In the end you lose because you may think it is funny now but you won’t in the near future when all these kids hit the residential centers, institutions and group homes. Then you can pay out of your pocket for all these kids for their lifetimes.
“This isn’t a public arena, its my blog. You’re here by my good graces. Behave like you would when you’re invited into a persons home or go elsewhere.”
I haven’t been the least bit insulting. Don’t get stroppy. Anyway, why not answer this with your own words, from message 42:
“Secondly, I know that the more pissed Brad is, the more I have got under his skin and said something he really didn’t want people to know. I like that :o)”
“Really? You mean aside from The Scotsman, The Guardian, The Sun and being all over the Internet? Come on Andy.”
Oh I see…and there’s been a direct link to the petition has there?! In any of those? No?! Come on Kev!
“Hmm, sorry, I don’t buy that. This is about Wakefield. If it was about sick children why has it only be launched on the eve of the GMC hearing?”
Whether you “buy it” or not is irrelevant. I would guess that a time of such publicity would be a good time to launch a petition related to this…seems common sense to me.
“Parents aren’t automatically saints Andy. How about you point me to some specific instances that you find disgraceful?”
Of course they’re not saints, and I never implied that they were. As for those instances why not take a moment to read through some of the messages around here. We both know they’re there.
“THe NAA are not people I would want supporting any cause of mine.”
Alas, I imagine the feeling is mutual.
“Again, you are missing the point. If you want to say that a percentage of the 9000 sigs are from US people then you have even less you can attribute to the UK, that takes your overall representation back down, not up.”
No, you’re missing my point. You said that there was no support for Wakefield outside of the U.K. I pointed out the flowers and messages etc sent from America. You can use statistics to attack 9000 or whatever it is all you like. Still a hell of a lot of support mate.
“I have no idea. I really hope someone conducts some good science into that question. None has been done so far”
Glad we agree on this.
“However, we need to be clear: good science has considered MMR and there is simply nothing to that hypothesis. ”
Aah…we disagree again. Not good enough studies. Statistical not medical studies. Proven errors.
“We also need to consider the idea that the fact that these kids are autistic and the fact they are ill are two separate things.”
We won’t know that for sure until there’s been more study.
Ah, now there’s the True-Grit Gallup we’ve all come to enjoy. Shooting from the hip – “You people” and “PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers” – great stuff.
So Ray, how exactly does it help our children when people cling to ideas like anti-MBP antibodies and autoimmune destruction of myelin triggered by MMR? Singh’s work is deeply flawed. The antibodies he reported had a slight affinity for human MBP but they aren’t specific to human MBP. We know this because other scientists took the time to do it right.
There may just be an immune mediated process involving a myelin associated protein or something that also recognizes measles hemagglutinin protein but research doesn’t move forward by accepting the conclusions of one man.
btw, I suspect that Singh wasn’t called on to testify at Cedillo hearing because he strongly disagrees with the notion of thimerosal causing or contributing to autism.
Not all of them, but many of the “doctors and other health professionals” who have signed that petition are involved with promoting DAN! protocols or similar. Some of them even have the chutzpah to advertise their services etc. on the petition – classy.
And, no. I’ve run several samples on that petition and the anonymous and duplications account for between 30-50%. For examples of duplication, look at
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/GMC/signatures-176.html
and then replace those numbers with 179 and 182
I’m trying to get round Askimet as Kev requested…
So the folks who talk about “damaged” children, how families “suffer,” and that the cost of group homes and institutions will be reflected in taxes, while referring to their critics as “PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers” are now crying “discrimination?”
Are these the same people who think a birthday party is an appropriate setting for the collection of blood samples from children? The same people who think that children fainting and vomiting is humorous?
Unbelievable!
_”I haven’t been the least bit insulting. Don’t get stroppy. Anyway, why not answer this with your own words, from message 42:”_
I didn’t say you’d been insulting, I told you to behave. So behave.
_”Oh I see…and there’s been a direct link to the petition has there?! In any of those? No?! Come on Kev!”_
Direct link? Come on Andy, why are being so silly? You said: _”but not the petition. That hasn’t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.—_
I just pointed out to you that you are wrong.
_”Whether you “buy it†or not is irrelevant. I would guess that a time of such publicity would be a good time to launch a petition related to this…seems common sense to me.”_
Indeed, but again, was not what I was suggesting. I’m suggesting that this is, as you imply, a good PR move for Wakefield.
_”Of course they’re not saints, and I never implied that they were. As for those instances why not take a moment to read through some of the messages around here. We both know they’re there.”_
So point some out to me.
_”No, you’re missing my point. You said that there was no support for Wakefield outside of the U.K. I pointed out the flowers and messages etc sent from America. You can use statistics to attack 9000 or whatever it is all you like. Still a hell of a lot of support mate.”_
Andy, you need to listen to what’s being said to you. I am not, and never have, claimed that Wakefield has no support outside the UK. What I am saying is that if we have a set amount of signatures (9000 in this case) and we further say that if we expand the entire population to compare to this 9000 then the world % is far, far less than the UK %. Surely that must be obvious.
_”Not good enough studies. Statistical not medical studies. Proven errors.”_
I’m going to ask you what I asked Joan. Have you read and understood the testimony of Stephen Bustin and Nick Chadwick at the recent Cedillo hearings. I’m afraid that these two pieces of testimony removed any biological plausibility Wakefield ever thought he had.
There are also two medical studies that seem perfectly adequate to me in refuting Wakefield aside from Bustin and Chadwick – Afzal et al and one other I can’t recall. Could you explain to me what the ‘proven errors’ are with Afzal?
_”We won’t know that for sure until there’s been more study.”_
Well, we already know that there are quite a lot of things that are accepted comorbidities of autism – and that autism itself can be a comorbidity. Who even really knows how common these issues you’re referring to actually are? I agree that it needs investigating but I really don’t think that these gastric (and other) issues are really that common.
_”Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site?”_
I’m a what now?
Is this part of the promotion from BigPharma Shill?
I’m a parent of an autistic child myself Ray. I own and run this site alone. Are you really so egotistical that you cannot stand the fact that people disagree with you to the point you have to resort to silliness?
Ray – you seem like quite an immature person. What are you raving about and what has it got to do with whether science supports/dosen’t support the idea that vaccines cause autism?
Raymond Gallop wrote:
“So go ahead discrimate against our kids and families. That is what you PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers are best at.”
A couple of points. Firstly, DAN! doctors – and others associated with the belief that MMR causes autism – very often do use or recommend pharma products themselves (e.g. secretin and EDTA). Admittedly, they use them really badly – these products are completely useless for treating autism, and can be harmful – but they’re still using pharmaceuticals…
Secondly, Wakefield is accused of unethical research on children. Aside from that bloody party, he allegedly carried out lumbar punctures etc. without proper ethics board approval and against the best interests of the children. In order to avoid discriminating against children on the autistic spectrum, it’s important that they’re given the right to the same level of medical care as other children and the same protection against unethical research practices. It’s therefore completely appropriate that Wakefield is made to answer to the GMC. The idea that doctors would be allowed to perform all kinds of procedures on vulnerable children – without the normal safeguards on medical research – frankly fills me with horror.
What is the matter with you people??? Do you like discriminating against our children and families because we have children with disabilities and we are trying to find treatments and/or cure to help them? That we want this autism epidemic to end so more kids and families don’t have to suffer with children that grow up and beat their heads against the wall or bite, kick, scratch, head-butt, pull hair of family members and those people they come in contact with? Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site
First of all, it should be noted that most posters in this thread are parents of autistic children or otherwise disabled children. (I’m guessing Brian is the only one who’s not).
And for Andy, the only vicious attacks I’ve seen against parents here have been from Brand Handley, e.g. indicating he’d like to put his boot through Kev’s eye socket or something of the sort.
Now, the conspiracy stuff is totally ridiculous. Don’t you see how it doesn’t help your argument at all?
“I didn’t say you’d been insulting, I told you to behave. So behave.”
Naturally!
“Direct link? Come on Andy, why are being so silly? You said: “but not the petition. That hasn’t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.â€â€
I just pointed out to you that you are wrong.”
I think there’s been a case of misunderstanding here. When I said it hadn’t been in the papers, I meant the actual link to the petition so that people could go to it, not just a passing mention of “a” petition. This was related to your saying that there should be more signatures, and I said there were lots considering etc etc. My apologies for not being clearer – but I don’t think we’re going to end up agreeing on this one my friend.
“So point some out to me.” Sigh…ok, but that’ll have to be later.
“Andy, you need to listen to what’s being said to you. I am not, and never have, claimed that Wakefield has no support outside the UK. What I am saying is that if we have a set amount of signatures (9000 in this case) and we further say that if we expand the entire population to compare to this 9000 then the world % is far, far less than the UK %. Surely that must be obvious.” I’ve already answered you on this. Of course if you compare the number of signatures on the petition to everyone in the entire world, it’s a small figure! I agree!!!! But considering the amount of publicity it’s had, it seems to me to be a good number. See above on agree to disagree on this, or we’ll be going round and round forever.
“There are also two medical studies that seem perfectly adequate to me in refuting Wakefield aside from Bustin and Chadwick – Afzal et al and one other I can’t recall. Could you explain to me what the ‘proven errors’ are with Afzal?” I’ll have a look for the links again and get back to you.
“I agree that it needs investigating but I really don’t think that these gastric (and other) issues are really that common.” You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but seems to me that a lot of the kiddies who are complaining also have gastric illness, so it’s worth looking into – at least for the benefit of disproving a link. At the moment, the numbers and similaritiy of cases are suggestion (I’m not saying conclusive) of a link.
Ref – all this Stormtrooper stuff, I agree it’s probably not that helpful – but should show how deeply upset many parents feel about those who don’t seem interested in their sick children at all, rather just to attack the doctors involved, i.e. Mr Deer. I’d say far from Wakefields tests being unethical on the children, it has been unethical of all the other doctors and department of health to NOT investigate them. From what I’ve seen, the parents are trying to help their children and are being attacked and prevented from doing so at every turn…and no-one else is helping them. Now, whether you agree with the MMR or not, surely you can see their position?
Lastly, Shinga’s comment “And, no. I’ve run several samples on that petition and the anonymous and duplications account for between 30-50%.” Your statistic is really quite a lot of nonsense. The people running it have already said they go through and remove duplicates regularly, and I didn’t see any on the pages you mentioned. If there are any in there, goodness knows who’s putting them in, no-one who’d want to undermine it of course. If you’re THAT concerned, why not contact the GMC and ask them if what was handed in was properly validated? And stop getting so cross that there are lots of signatures! You can stamp your feet crossly as much as you like, it won’t change anything, and can’t be a productive use of your time.
Well, I’m delighted to have triggered an edit to that petition: the duplications were present on those pages as recently as 16 July as anybody with a cache of those pages can see.
It doesn’t bother me that people sign the petition, I’m sure that the GMC are used to the tactics of people who artificially inflate the nos…it does irritate me when people claim a significance that the petition and its nos. cannot support.
The whole idea of an epetition being important either way surprises me. I learned ten years ago that these things are probably useless, about the same time I realized I shouldn’t forward emails about urban legends. Snopes has a good write up under Inboxer Rebellion for anyone who cares.
Clarification: Snopes does not mention this particular petition, but has an explanation of how easy it is for computer programs to generate “signatures,” how ad revenue is generated for the site’s owner every time someone clicks to see it or “sign,” etc. etc.
That petition website is pretty good at removing bogus entries once they are reported. But clearly they don’t have an automatic detection system. I also noticed that many petitioners are non-parents. From the comments, many seem to be anti-vax persons, homeopaths, and so forth. Not that any of this is relevant to the arguments at hand.
Ray (author of the Vaccine Aliens book) wrote “What is the matter with you people??? Do you like discriminating against our children and families because we have children with disabilities and we are trying to find treatments and/or cure to help them? ….snip..? Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site?”
How DARE you say that to a parent of a child with health issues that required him to depend on herd immunity.
The herd immunity that is being compromised by people claiming withOUT any good science that the vaccines cause various ailments. My son could have been killed by pertussis, something he never received a vaccine for because of his seizures. Now because of a very serious heart condition he can be victimized by a host of other diseases (though he does fortunately get a fall influenza vaccine). To see how the herd immunity for measles has caused severe damage read this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece
How DARE you go on that rant withOUT answering my simple questions with real studies?
How DARE you ignore the obvious ill use of children for monetary gain by a physician UNqualified to work with pediatric patients… and for money from a legal fund using UK citizen taxes?
How DARE you ignore the three dead children in Ireland and the one dead child in the UK due to the Wakefield scaremongering?
How DARE you ignore the several people hospitalized and the four who were deafened by mumps last year in the American Mid-West (I want to use my second link for something else, but you can read about it on the CDC website in a report titled “Update: Multistate Outbreak of Mumps — United States, January 1–May 2, 2006”, dated May 18, 2006)
How DARE you ignore that measles still causes half a million deaths elsewhere? Is it because they are in a third world country that they should be allowed to ignored? Or that they have HIV/AIDS that they do not deserve the extra protection from measles? This is my last link that I think you should read… http://www.medpagetoday.com/HIVAIDS/HIVAIDS/tb/6190
Andy – “I’d say far from Wakefields tests being unethical on the children, it has been unethical of all the other doctors and department of health to NOT investigate them. From what I’ve seen, the parents are trying to help their children and are being attacked and prevented from doing so at every turn…and no-one else is helping them. Now, whether you agree with the MMR or not, surely you can see their position?”
I’d have to disagree there, but with the caveat that I can see why parents would feel that way. Yes, doctors should help autistic children and their parents, but they should do so in an ethical way, with clear and transparent approval, and proceed in the safest possible way. Wakefield failed on these counts. What Wakefield has produced has been a terrible distraction for people wanting to do proper research. If the research had been properly conducted, if the results of the research hadn’t been manipulated then we would have had correct data to help with building a picture of what may cause autism. What we need is better help for those with autism and their families and properly conducted research that would better answer their questions instead of offering false hopes. Wakefield has benefited massively materially from this, but those with autism haven’t, because of the blind alley we’ve been led down. Thanks to Wakefield those working in the field of autism now have to work harder to shake off stigmatisation from his association with the subject and have their research taken seriously. Parents’ anger should be directed at him and not those holding him to task – for failing in his duty of care to his patients.
Don’t worry Ray, now you can write another book and create a movie treatment about how the tall, handsome British sociopath led the world around by the nose, is unappreciated, and in the end is taken back to his home planet where he’s hailed as the hero that he truly is. His wife, predictably, stays on earth.
92. The Vaccine Aliens by Ray Gallup
“The Vaccine Aliens” is registered with WGA, West. It involves a father with an autistic son and his friends who stumble on shape-shifting aliens who are trying to destroy mankind. These shape-shifting aliens are working out of a pharmaceutical company that manufactures vaccines and prescription drugs. The father and friends try to get the word out but the aliens want to silence them which leads to a final conflict on Shades of Death Road in New Jersey (an actual location ).
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:VmCktSQQhbUJ:www.moviebytes.com/ws/WinningScripts.cfm%3FSortBy%3DDATE%26Page%3D4+%22vaccine+aliens%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=safari
Ray, don’t forget to accuse Kev of being a shape shifting alien, now.
Oh, Geez, such cheese! Was he channelling David Icke when he wrote that?
Dr. Andrew Wakefield and Dr. Vijendra Singh will be in the medical history books for their accomplishments down the road.
All of you groups like Neurodiversity, Autism Diva and this link can go to pharmaceutical companies and see if they will pay your taxes when they go up to house all the vaccine-damaged (regressive autism) kids in institutions, group homes and residential centers……..lots of luck on getting them to pay your taxes. It will happen in 5-10 years so go ahead and laugh.
So kiss up to the vaccine companies but make sure you are getting some money back from them because you will need it in the future to pay your tax bill.
So all you people, keep on shilling for the vaccine companies…..and don’t forget to collect your blood money.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/FinancialSupport/OtherBenefitsAndSupport/DG_10026664
Disappointed that the UK government recognizes vaccine damage causing disabled?????
Ahhhhh!!!!!!!
Ray, Buck up. Andy’s on the TV!
http://www.channel4.com/player/v2/player.jsp?showId=7734
See, you can use that clip to sell your next movie treatment. All PR is good PR for a handsome man like our Andy. I can just see our Andy in a space suit! http://www.yesterland.com/images-tomorrowland/spaceman.jpg
Sell your movie and you’ll be rich, Ray! Just like Andy!
When the world recognizes that shape-shifting aliens and the Illuminati have infiltrated all areas of society in order to control the human population, then Dr. Andrew Wakefield and Dr. Vijendra Singh will have been recognized in the medical history books for their accomplishments.
Sure, I buy that.
Big deal… The USA has the same thing:
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/
Exactly how many payments have been made to families with autism?
Also respond this:
How DARE you ignore that measles still causes half a million deaths elsewhere? Is it because they are in a third world country that they should be allowed to ignored? Or that they have HIV/AIDS that they do not deserve the extra protection from measles? This is my last link that I think you should read… http://www.medpagetoday.com/HIVAIDS/HIVAIDS/tb/6190
Ray, why didn’t Singh ask to testify for the Cedillos last month?
Another question: Are you naturally clueless, or is this level of idiocy something you have to work at?
_”Dr. Andrew Wakefield and Dr. Vijendra Singh will be in the medical history books for their accomplishments down the road.”_
Of that I have no doubt, but I don’t think it will be in quite the way you imagine.
Did you really write a book about vaccines and aliens? That’s hilarious.
_”Disappointed that the UK government recognizes vaccine damage causing disabled?????”_
Uh, no…? Why would I/we be?
Total Adjudications 1989 – 2007:
298
Dismissals:
298
Compensable:
0
Source
Bink: “Frankly I have spent the day halfway wondering if the Mercury Dad post is an elaborate joke or a prank.”
Actually, he is a joke, but he just doesn’t get it yet.
Mercury Dad
I do not subscribe to the mercury/vaccine cause autism theories but I applaud you for standing up to those who would censor discussion of these issues here or elsewhere. As for Dr Wakefield IF some of the charges are substantiated they seem to be very serious.
On the larger issues, I hope to see the current explosion in autism research continue on all fronts, environmental and genetic causation, treatment and applied autism research on interventions. Scientific consensus has certainly not ruled out potential environmental factors to the increasing incidence of autism. In the meantime it is important for all voices to be heard and for issues to be discussed.
I don’t see how anyone is censoring any discussion.
So, people are sure that this Mercury Dad post is not a hoax, someone trying to misrepresent Handley as the writer? I am serious. I just can’t see how anyone who is the leader of a national organization would write in such way, especially attacking autistic people and the parents of autistic people who are posting here. I keep thinking to myself that I know parents who have done chelation, I know people who do a lot of alternative medicine, hell, one of my favorite people in the world,my cousin, lives in Oregon, too, and is practically the High Priestess of Woo. But I can’t imagine any of these smart, reasonable, interesting people associating with or respecting someone who writes the things “Mercury Dad” has. I think they’d all be horrified to find out that this guy is spewing this kind of stuff. I think it would be helpful if every post of his was immediately followed by a clear explanation of who he is and links to his other postings here. Newbies who come across this board for the first time and are still trying to sort through the facts should understand what is going on here.
Harold,
Who is being censored, except for the various criteria of Kev’s spam filter as he has stated openly?
Consider that if there was censorship, I think that it’s fair to assume that you would not have even read Mercury Dad’s post/rant because it would have been…well, censored. Ditto Mr. Gallup with the “PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers”, which is name-calling on a grand scale.
Scientific consensus is one thing, but populist consensus is another–“hey everyone, let’s come over here and have a vote on evolution (or germs or whether the earth or the sun is the one that revolves around the other)”. It’s important for all voices to be heard until such time that it stops making sense because of the preponderance of evidence is not on their side or because the particular spokesman is unqualified to be making the assertions by lack of competency on the question.
Coming back to Kev’s original post, who do I listen to, the first hand testimony from world experts of the public Omnibus hearing or the NAA double-plus-goodspeak emails and petitions? After that past gaffe with confusing the John Merck Foundation with Merck, the pharmaceutical company and various similar pieces of disinformation, smear and innuendo, if these are not plain lies they certainly suggest a shortfall in fact-checking. They also don’t seem particularly concerned with the censorship or courtesy question regarding evidence that does not correspond with the already determined points of view.
notmercury I don’t really know what you are talking about to be honest. I applauded the poster for having the fortitude to post on this forum where dissent is discouraged. That is all. Your comment actually reinforces my point.
I don’t think dissent is actually discouraged, it is more that actual evidence is encouraged.
Ray Gallup was asked for actual evidence, he was told his Wiki page was insufficient… and he was told that paying kids for blood at a birthday party is not normal, and that laughing about children fainting and vomiting is not funny.
The response to that was that I was asked if I was “a Jehovah’s Witness”, and the rest of us were accused of being “Pharmamafia SS Stormtroopers”.
So I got angry, and challenged him. I asked a few angry questions, but also some very important questions… Like why is it that the MMR licensed in the USA in 1971 only became a problem in the UK over twenty years since it was developed? And what about the HIV children in Africa who are much more susceptible to measles, and need repeated vaccination?
He has not answered any of those questions.
By your definition is asking questions a way to discourage dissent?
In the last two or three weeks,Harold, you have developed the habit of peppering me with unprovoked insults on my blog as well. When I attempted to engage you in discussion on your own blog, you did not allow my last two comments to appear. You returned instead to my blog and stated that
“I did not publish your follow up which added nothing informative to the discussion.”
http://onedadsopinion.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-good-at-usd.html
I also requested – twice – that we converse via email in an effort to have a rational discussion on the issues.
So, you feel free to use other people’s unmoderated blogs as a place to drop in and lob a few challenges, you moderate out any comments on your own blog which may cause you to defend any one of your positions, you avoid genuine invitations to discuss the issues, and then you show up here and make the comments that “I applaud you for standing up to those who would censor discussion of these issues…” and “…this forum where dissent is discouraged”? Ummm … wow.
For anyone who may care to read the link above, please also note the following. Harold was so incensed at my use of the term “deficit model” – and that a break from that viewpoint may be of value as research moves forward – he actually did a post on his own site demeaning my comments on the issue. That’s fine – it is his prerogative to do so. However, he – as follows from his generally prejudicial view of Neurodiversity – assumed by my use of the term “deficit model” that I meant that there are no deficits related to autism. How chagrined he must have felt – after accusing me of “pseudo-intellectual games” after my attempt to explain this point to him – when he realized that the “deficit model” is simply a behaviorists’ term to describe a way of analyzing behaviors related to autism. The point I was making in my post is that one speaker was recommending a shift from”deficit model” to “dynamic systems model” in trying to understand how best to support and educate autistic individuals.
Since you never made any further comments on my blog or yours, Mr. Doherty, I assume that NOW you get it.
To summarize, Mr. Doherty, I’d like to restate something you said to me in the above linked post’s comments and see how you would like to respond:
“As to the deficit concept, duck if you wish to avoid dealing with what you chose to publish.”
Exactly. I was also going to point out that a big example of blog censorship is Harold’s own blog, where critical but otherwise respectful messages allegedly just do not appear.
For another example, see Kirby’s blog. In my experience, any message that clearly refutes a post by David Kirby is simply not approved, no matter how innocuous the language.I’m not sure how they run things at HuffingtonPost, but that’s clearly appalling.
When Generation Rescue had a blog (which they gave up and was subsequently squatted by spammers) I know for a fact that they deleted messages from there without a trace or explanation.
Frankly, there’s a pattern of intellectual dishonesty that can clearly be observed in people with a certain mindset in these debates.
“Exactly. I was also going to point out that a big example of blog censorship is Harold’s own blog, where critical but otherwise respectful messages allegedly just do not appear.”
ditto. And not just his blog, he runs his lists (ones he owns and/or moderates) the same way. New Brunswick is welcome to his POV but not to anyone else’s is he can help it. They get the Observer’s “1 in 58” article (from HD) – but not the *real* comments/retractions from Dr Scott et al. (from me).
Any takers who want to take the BIG GULP for some $$$$$$??????
http://www.vaclib.org/links/jockslinks.htm#press
NOTE: During the time the original Press Release was offered for 5-1/2 years, only 14 inquires from doctors was received and no one accepted the challenge.
On August 1, 2006, the offer was increased to $75,000 and is posted at http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm
As of June 1, 2007 the offer increased to $80,000 and will climb $5,000 per month. Read more below.
* * * PRESS RELEASE * * *
April 25, 2007
Ojai, CA — On January 29, 2001, Jock Doubleday offered $20,000 to the first U.S.-licensed medical doctor or pharmaceutical company CEO to publicly drink a mixture of standard vaccine additive ingredients:
http://www.mercola.com/2001/feb/10/vaccine_offer.htm
The offer had no takers.
On August 1, 2006, Doubleday increased the $20,000 offer to $75,000:
http://www.vaclib.org/links/jockslinks.htm#press
The new offer had no takers.
Therefore .
. . as of June 1, 2007, the $75,000 offer will increase to $80,000;
as of July 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $85,000;
as of August 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $90,000;
as of September 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $95,000;
as of October 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $100,000;
as of November 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $105,000;
as of December 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $110,000;
as of January 1, 2008, the offer will increase to $115,000 . . . etc.
The offer will increase $5,000 per month, in perpetuity, until an M.D. or pharmaceutical company CEO, or any of the 14 relevant members of the ACIP (see below), agree to drink a body-weight calibrated dose of the poisonous vaccine additives that M.D.s routinely inject into children in the name of health.
This offer, dated April 25, 2007, has no expiration date unless superceded by a similar offer of higher remuneration.
In health,
Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html
I talked about that last year Ray – upshot was that someone already did and far, _far_ exceeded Doubledays silly offer. No autism, no death.