National Autism Association – More Lies

16 Jul

I am beginning to wonder if National Autism Association are actually capable of discussing autism without lying any more. Its becoming more and more blatant. Today, they have released a press release of support for Andrew Wakefield which is simply bizarre:

Parents and advocacy groups around the globe are asking England’s General Medical Council (GMC) to cancel the “fitness to practice” inquiry that begins today against Dr. Andy Wakefield, and Professors Walker-Smith and Murch. Advocates say the GMC should instead be asking why so many kids are sick, especially in light of an apparently suppressed analysis showing that autism rates in England are as high as 1 in 58. The medical establishment is being criticized for doing little to find the cause, treat the kids, or prevent new cases.

Uh, no, no they’re not. Parents around the world (of whom I am one) are _not_ asking the GMC to cancel the hearings against Andrew Wakefield. I have read numerous letters, comments in blogs and on forums from parents who are quite happy to see the GMC conduct an inquiry into Wakefield’s behaviour.

An what the hell is this ‘suppressed analysis’ rubbish? Its not suppressed at all. The leaked study was not published and according to the lead author:

So, what are the facts on autism? Does the one-in-58 figure hold up? Baron-Cohen says their study of Cambridgeshire children, which has been running for five years, comes out with a range of figures from one in 58, to one in 200, depending on various factors. The draft report, he says, “is as accurate as jottings in a notebook”.

The NAA – and anyone who really seriously believes this twaddle – really need to take a long hard look at their motives. Why are they doing this? They _know_ the claim that the data from Baron-Cohen’s study is suppressed is rubbish. What this press release is is simply propaganda. Why are the NAA purposefully lying?

And they continue:

In the first of 5000 cases to be heard in a special vaccine court in the US last month, evidence presented demonstrated that 12-year old Michelle Cedillo began regressing into autism just a week after her MMR vaccination at 15 months. The plausible cause was a persistent measles infection which took hold through an immune system weakened by mercury in vaccines administered prior to the MMR.

Well, the NAA must’ve been reading a different set of transcripts to me. The evidence presented, utilising the video evidence, and interpreted by one of the worlds leading diagnostic authorities on autism clearly showed Michelle Cedillo was autistic way before she had her MMR jabs. It was also clearly demonstrated that the evidence presented to support the assertion that MMR was a ‘plausible cause’ of autism was a joke. The MMR/autism theory revolves around the idea of measles from the MMR travelling to the gut then the brain and causing damage that results in autism. Without measles being present, there is no MMR/autism hypothesis.

Here’s the sworn testimony of Stephen Bustin, _the_ world expert in the technique Wakefield’s lab of choice screwed up:

What I immediately observed was that they had forgotten to do the RT step…….If you detect a target that is apparently measles virus in the absence of an RT step by definition it can’t be measles virus because it has to be DNA. It’s a very simple concept. At least it is to me. It’s not to everyone else……[b]ecause measles virus doesn’t exist as a DNA molecule in nature, they cannot be detecting measles virus….

We need to be absolutely clear about this. This isn’t an _opinion_ Bustin was expressing. These were findings. He was in the O’Leary lab for (if I recall correctly) about 1,000 hours.

Wakefield _never found measles virus_ .

Then it gets really surreal:

The charges originated from internet blogger Brian Deer, who many parents have suggested may be linked to the pharmaceutical industry. “This is nothing more than a witch hunt brought against scientists willing to undertake ground-breaking research challenging the assumption that autism is an inherited untreatable psychiatric disorder that cannot be prevented. Implicating the safety of vaccines such as MMR isn’t acceptable to drug companies or government officials who want to protect the vaccine program itself at the cost of the health of children,” said Mr. Bono.

Brian’s an internet blogger? Weird. last I hears he was a freelance journalist. Certainly the readers of his Times pieces and Channel 4 television reports would think so.

Mr. Bono also needs to internalise a few basic facts.

1) The MMR hypothesis has been on the table since ’97. So far there has been absolutely no valid research supporting the idea that MMR causes autism or contributes to the development of autism in any way. If there was, why was it not presented at the recent Cedillo hearing?

2) Since ’97 the MMR uptake fell to nearly 80% at one point. If, as the NAA suggest, autism has skyrocketed to 1 in 58 then how is it that MMR uptake has plummeted whilst autism rates have skyrocketed.

3) I would ask these many parents that the NAA know to back up their allegation that Brian Deer is linked to the pharmaceutical industry. I’m a parent. I don’t think Brian is a big pharma shill. I also think its a particularly pathetic whiny little stab.

4) This is not a witch hunt. This is a look at a man who _has_ put the health of children at risk. Measles and Mumps have increased four fold since ’97. One English child and several Irish kids died from Measles. Approx 12% of measles sufferers required hospitalisation.

Andrew Wakefield hid the results that he didn’t like. Here is Nick Chadwick on the original Lancet paper:

Q So you personally tested while you were in Dr. Wakefield’s lab gut biopsy material, CSF and PBMCs?
A Yes, that’s right.

Q And all the results were either negative, or if they were positive it always turned out that they were false positives?
A Yes, that’s correct.

Q Did you inform Dr. Wakefield of the negative results?
A Yes. Yes.

Andrew Wakefield conducted poor science. He hid the results that he knew would scupper his poor science. Children have died and have been hospitalised as a result of this appalling dereliction of medical duty.

160 Responses to “National Autism Association – More Lies”

  1. HN July 25, 2007 at 01:24 #

    Ray, is this your response to my questions? When will you answer them? Here they are again: Like why is it that the MMR licensed in the USA in 1971 only became a problem in the UK over twenty years since it was developed? And what about the HIV children in Africa who are much more susceptible to measles, and need repeated vaccination?

    What does the Jock Doubleday challenge on thimerosal have to do with the MMR?

    You do know that the MMR has never contained thimerosal? Plus, Jock has so many steps and procedures it is a bogus challenge. He has no intention of ever accepting any participants. He is just being a blowhard:
    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/gentlebirth.htm

    Did you check out the contract? Check it out here:
    http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/ContractPartA.htm

    It requires a psychiatric evaluation, “Participant agrees to submit, within 45 (forty-five) days of Participant’s signing of the Agreement, documents comprising a verifiable written history of all psychological counseling and therapy (the “Mental Health Records”). “, “Participant agrees to take a written open-book examination (the “Basic Exam”) before becoming eligible to receive Part B of the Agreement. The Basic Exam will be sent by Coordinator to Participant by email within 30 (thirty) days of Participant’s email acknowledgement of receipt of Part A of the Agreement, as well as Participant’s signing of Part A of the Agreement and faxing of signed Part A of the Agreement to Coordinator. The Basic Exam will consist of 10 questions regarding basic vaccination theory and practice.”, AND the participant must buy five books:
    1) Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective? by Neil Z. Miller;
    2) Immunization: The Reality Behind the Myth, by Walene James;
    3) Vaccination, Social Violence and Criminality: The Medical Assault on the American Brain, by Harris L. Coulter;
    4) The Sanctity of Human Blood: Vaccination Is Not Immunization, by Tim O’Shea;
    5) What Every Parent Should Know About Childhood Immunization, by Jamie Murphy…..
    ….and on, and on, and on…

    It is a bogus challenge.

    So, Ray, any time table set to answer my questions on the MMR? Did you know that most Americans who are in their late-thirties and younger have received the MMR at least once? Let’s see… this is 2007, it was licensed in 1971… so it has been around for 36 years.

  2. Ashleigh Anderson July 25, 2007 at 01:36 #

    Ray, you’re embarassing yourself here, man. Just show them the lab results you have from the O’Leary lab proving that your son has measles in his intestines. Did you contact the Omnibus petitioners steering committee offering yourself as an expert witness in MMR causation?

  3. anonimouse July 25, 2007 at 05:08 #

    I do love all the little anti-vaccine sock puppets that came out of the woodwork for this blog entry. It makes my heart dance and skip a beat to know that there are parents out there that desperately want to ensure that (other) kids get sick.

    Now if only we could get a comment from one of the REAL heavy hitters…I wonder if the Geiers, Jeff “Exorcist” Bradstreet or the Wake-man himself have a few free minutes. Of course, they might too busy fleecing the unsuspecting.

  4. burntcherry July 25, 2007 at 05:43 #

    Ray:

    Jock’s challenge is a bogus challenge, as HN says. Just like the others from McCandless and Buttar you can read about here:
    http://burntcherry.blogspot.com/

  5. HN July 25, 2007 at 05:48 #

    Helloooooo? Ray, are you there? What does Jock’s bogus challenge have to do with the 36 year old MMR which never, ever… not ever contained thimerosal?

    Are you ever going to answer my questions?

    Where is the actual, dare I say it… science?

  6. Paul Offit, MD July 29, 2007 at 13:34 #

    I will be taking this challenge.

    Paul Offit, MD
    offit@email.chop.edu

    My challenge was issued in the British Medical Journal:
    http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/330/7483/112-d#93670
    Pro-vaccinators simply refuse to listen to victims, such as myself and refer
    to ludicrous statistical studies that are easily pulled to bits in
    commentaries like this one: http://www.whale.to/a/branell.html or
    http://66.70.140.217/a/branell.html
    They engage in endless theoretical debates at no personal risk. It is for
    this reason that I have turned to the courts:
    http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10056591
    The courts will decide that in a legal sense the evidence that vaccines
    cause autism is overwhelming, as Clifford Miller has pointed out in his
    article on the unreliability of scientific papers as evidence:
    http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/328/7440/602-c#52948
    But even then there will be a problem, as long as talk is cheap and the
    pro-vaccinators risk nothing in asserting that vaccines are harmless.
    They have put the lives of our children on the line. It is time for them to
    put their own lives on the line. I challenge them to let themselves be
    vaccinated. If they really believe in their studies and really think that
    vaccines are harmless and that I and all the other victims are victims only
    of our own imaginations, they should let me vaccinate them with all the
    childhood vaccines, the dose being adjusted to their body weights, assuming
    an average weight at vaccination of 5 kilos. They would then be exposed to
    the same risks as the infants they vaccinate. I have already made this offer
    to various people on a number of occasions, most recently in the BMJ
    http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/325/7373/1134/a and had no takers.
    Nobody in the world seems willing to do it. Here is another challenge: Paul
    Offit says that children could tolerate 10,000 vaccines. Is anybody willing
    to do this, including Offit himself? Dr Salisbury is more modest: 1,000
    vaccines are no problem at all. Here is my third challenge: is anyone
    willing to subject themselves to a thousand jabs, including Salisbury
    himself?
    Is anybody in the world willing to accept any or all of these three vaccine
    challenges? Madsen? Smeeth? Adam Jacobs? Brian Deer? Anders Hviid? Brent
    Taylor? Anyone? Anyone at all? After all, there’s no danger is there? It’s
    safe, isn’t it? You want to set a good example don’t you? You want to allay
    our suspicions and put our fears to rest, don’t you? Here is your
    opportunity! Let us all gather at the offices of the BMJ. You can then roll
    up your sleeves and let’s see what happens to you after a few jabs.
    You can mail me at alandavidrees@hotmail.com
    Alan Rees

  7. Regan July 29, 2007 at 14:04 #

    Interesting.
    “Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition” is such a strange turn of phrase that I wondered what would happen if I punched it into google.

    I didn’t get anything cross-linking with Paul Offit, but I did get these 3 hits:

    “Andrew Wakefield is unjustly going through a Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition because he dared to help families and their children with regressive autism…”
    Raymond Gallup July 20, 2007
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/07/19/do1904.xml

    “The General Medical Council (GMC) is conducting nothing more and nothing less than a Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition on Dr. Wakefield, Professor Smith and Professor Murch…”
    Raymond Gallup, July 22, 2007
    http://autism.about.com/b/a/257890.htm

    “The GMC is conducting a vendetta toward Dr. Andrew Wakefield with their Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition…”
    Raymond Gallup
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article2080353.ece

    I think that our legs are being pulled here.

  8. Kev July 29, 2007 at 14:31 #

    Regan – the person continually posting under the name of Paul Offit is apparently one Alan Rees. When he has the balls to post under his own name and when those posts are not reposts of material already posted and discussed I’ll stop deleting his comments.

    I’ve also emailed him to tell him this and to warn him any more stupidity results in a ban.

  9. Regan July 29, 2007 at 14:48 #

    Kev,
    Thanks for the correction.
    I don’t see eye to eye with Mr. Gallup, but also don’t want to tar the wrong person with the wrong brush.

  10. Howdy Doody July 29, 2007 at 21:12 #

    It is Howdy Doody time!!!!!

    Howdy Doody
    howdydoody@aol.com

  11. Kev July 29, 2007 at 21:32 #

    I was wrong – its Ray Gallup – what an ass. Ray – grow up, cut it out or I’ll ban you.

  12. Joe Harris July 29, 2007 at 22:32 #

    You never answer questions you just spout the pharma line. You are really not
    very smart or you are paid to defend thimerosal and keep us busy and lie to other people. You
    really need to think of judgement day and how you sold these little children out and what the
    god of the jews the lord jesus will do to you for the damage done by people like you. One
    more time looking for an answer if the MSDS sheet says pregnant women should not be
    exposed to the product thimerosal. Then maybe you can tell me how the CDC recomends
    two flu vacc. containing 25 micro grams each for preg. women ? ? ? ? ? are you really this stupid ?

  13. Kev July 29, 2007 at 22:44 #

    Joe –

    1) Ask me a question and I’ll answer it. You might not like the answer but…c’est la vie

    2) I’m an atheist. I think your talk of judgement day is juvenile and pitiable.

    3) Keep this in context. The MSDS is irrelevant when it comes to an unbelievably simple question: does thiomersal cause autism? Does the MMR cause autism? Does a combination of both cause autism? The answer based on the best available science is ‘no’.

    Now, I’ll ask you: how will you live with yourself when it emerges (as it is doing already) that the vaccine hypothesis being brought up time and time again solely to support yours – and people like you – views that vaccines are evil is deflecting money away from research, education and help for autistic children and adults.

    As far as I’m concerned Joe your utter stupidity is matched only by your utter cruelty and concious neglect. You care nothing for autistic people. What you care about is your ridiculous excuse for a cause.

  14. Joe Harris July 29, 2007 at 23:05 #

    How does the old saying go those who do not learn from
    history end up repeating it. This document is real from
    pubMed
    This is an excerpt

    The resistance
    to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new
    medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew
    old and disappeared from the scene. Meanwhile, the cause having been
    identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared,

    AKA (autism)
    ( add ) ( adhd ) ( Speach delay ) Remember verstraiten earler findings before they were destroyed out of the VSD

    And remember this is vacineal mercury not injested
    evidentally the opponents and sceptics were replaced
    more of the same

    The article
    Soc Hist Med. 1997 Aug;10(2):291-304. Related Articles, Links

    The rise and fall of pink disease.

    Dally A.

    Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London.

    This paper explores the social and medical history and context of pink
    disease (acrodynia), a serious disease of infants and young children
    that baffled the medical world during the first half of the twentieth
    century until it was shown to be caused by mercury poisoning. In the
    English-speaking world the commonest source of the mercury was teething
    powders, which were widely available and advertised with increasing
    sophistication. Efforts to control them (such as the BMJ’s campaign against
    ‘Secret Remedies’) were as yet unsuccessful. The article discusses the
    social conditions that influenced the existence and recognition of pink
    disease, the delay in finding its cause, the way in which it was
    explained as a virus infection or nutritional deficiency and why it seldom
    occurred outside the teething period. It discusses both professional and
    lay attitudes to health and diseases during the early twentieth century
    and provides a model of how the disease developed in a specific social
    setting and how the medical profession attempted to deal with it within
    the limitations of contemporary professional thought. The resistance
    to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new
    medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew
    old and disappeared from the scene. Meanwhile, the cause having been
    identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared, but its consequences
    emerged much later, in an unexpected quarter, as a cause of male
    infertility.

    Publication Types:
    Historical Article

    PMID: 11619497 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE

  15. Joe Harris July 29, 2007 at 23:34 #

    Hey kev when your right your right
    I will concede this what my child has is not autism.
    Remember that name was made up by leo kanner
    decribing something of a behavior not seen
    before. So like you said does thiomersal cause autism? Does the MMR cause autism? Does a combination of both cause autism? No you are right but the mercury
    in thimerosal causes mercury poisoning when children
    cannot excrete. And the MMR causes bowel disorders
    and kev you are wrong on the science to I will match
    your science any day but only on a level and fair
    playing field. But my friend you will lose this dad
    knows the science of autism

  16. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 00:34 #

    kev Im sorry you do not believe in god. Yahwah is real and
    some day will judge all the people whos greed wiped out
    a generation of boys and girls and lets not pretend its to save the vaccine program. So people want stop vaccination like they say. They will not remove it the thimerosal
    because the numbers would fall to fast remember them
    the CDC saying we have a plan in place hence preg.
    and children. 6 mos to 5 yrs. are now at risk remember
    Cochrane Collaboration stating the inactivated flu vacc.
    no evidence it even works so with this I guess they the CDC is just doing what they said we have a plan in place
    like I said you do not have a green horn on your hands
    I read a lot and I asked god to help me understand this
    more and he yahwah did just what he said he would
    what you need is to fear god for this is the beginning
    of Knowledge aknowlege him and he shall direct thy
    path

  17. HN July 30, 2007 at 00:36 #

    Joe Harris, why don’t you answer my question… The MMR in question was licensed for use in the USA in 1971 (most Americans who are about 37 years old and younger have had this vaccine at least once), It was approved for use in the UK in 1988. Why is it that it became a problem after about twenty years of use, and only in the UK?

  18. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 01:21 #

    HN this post is for you got to take my daughter to drive
    be back soon will answer you then

  19. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 03:58 #

    HN The answer that I have is that when you get two
    mmrs and double the mercury then two yrs later triple the amount of mercury it causes the autoimmune response
    and the body can’t fight so it sucombs to the the live
    viruses. Sort of a toxic tipping point my son had several
    vaccines, in one day One being the mmr, at the injection site a knott the size of a mans fist the next day at the dinner table he had three encephalopathy’s
    his little head shivered his eyes were blinking then he was looking dazed as one would feel
    like where am I, But that was not the mmr that caused
    the knott I think it was the dpt with thimerosal I un like
    so called autism experts know that there is no mercury
    or thimerosal in the mmr for it would kill the live viruses
    For I being a dad of a autistic child some times find my self knowing more than a lot of so called experts

  20. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 04:06 #

    Hey Kev, What happened to you we have some un finished busneiss

  21. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 05:24 #

    Hello ND’s anybody home cat got your toung

  22. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 05:27 #

    Hello ND’s, Anybody at home cat got your tongue
    sorry about the bad spelling on the last post

  23. Kev July 30, 2007 at 05:39 #

    Sorry Joe, we live in different timezones. I guess the .co.uk on the end of the URL was lost on you.

    Right, lets take your, er, ‘points’ in order shall we?

    1) Pinks disease does not resemble autism. Mercury poisoning does not resemble autism. Your PubMed cite is meaningless.

    2) You say: _”Remember that name was made up by leo kanner decribing something of a behavior not seen before”_

    No Joe, Kanner said it was a condition not _reported_ before. Here’s the quote:

    _”Since 1938, there have come to our attention a number of children whose condition differs so markedly and uniquely from anything reported so far,”_

    Here’s an analogy for you Joe. in 2005, a mammal described as ‘new to sciecne’ was discovered. Do you think this mammal sprang fully formed into existence just before it was spotted? Or do you think it simply went undetected and unnamed up to that point?

    4) The ‘poor excretors’ line is a poorly supported hypothesis. Please read this for a round up of the ‘poor excretors’ claptrap.

    5) Level playing field? What could be more level than this one? I’ll make sure none of your comments get spamtrapped (or release them if they do). Debate away. I’ll look forward to hearing your science.

    6) Moving on to your next comment. By Feb 2002, the levels of thiomersal containing vaccines on the open market was at 1.9% – according to what David Kirby describes as the gold standard of autism epidemiology – the CDDS data – the number of autism cases is going up. Since it is demonstrable that thiomersal has all but vanished from all but flu vaccines and yet autism cases are still going up, what foundation is there to your claims?

    7) Sorry, I don’t subscribe to childish conspiracy theories involving the CDC or your god.

    In conclusion I would say that your grasp of the science was, even for the low standards of your general antivax belief system outstandingly poor. I would also say that your god has led you down a course that will hurt autistic people. You and your god deserve each other.

  24. HN July 30, 2007 at 06:17 #

    Joe Harris… Could you try the answer in plain English? I did not understand you. Is English a second language for you, like Mr. Alan Rees (he is from Sweden)?

    What is this bit about “mercury”. There is no mercury in the MMR. There never has been, ever. You have some claims, but no evidence.

    The vaccine adopted in the UK is the one licensed in the USA in 1971. There does not seem to have been a big rise in autism in the USA starting in the early 1970s. If you have actual data to the contrary please present it. (use links that can be resolved to PubMed, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/ ).

    The question is why a vaccine that has been in use in the United States of America since 1971 only started to be a problem when it was approved for use in the United Kingdom in 1988.

    Now please answer my question with some actual evidence. It is now 11pm on the American West Coast (where I reside… here’s a hint… I live between two municipalities called “Vancouver”). I am going to go to bed now, so I expect that you will have a real answer in the next 12 hours. I did not answer before because I was either at a local art fair or eating dinner… I do not live on the computer. Try to present your answers in understandable English.

    Good night.

  25. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 10:01 #

    If you can read this and not see the CDC buying the
    IOM report you are blind or you are bought, Remember
    this was leaked minutes not gotten by FOIA someone
    was concerned and leaked the minutes
    In excerpt # 2 CDC spokes person Curtis Allen
    when asked to see if the contract between the CDC
    and IOM contained what two people said was being
    orderd not to find causation he stated that it would
    only be available in heavly “redacated” or blacked out
    format. Don’t want to be mean because you showed me
    respect in your last post but this to me means I cannot
    trust the CDC you see a very smart scientist said true
    science goes toward were the evidence leads not
    picking only what you contrive and make up. Take for
    example saying this mercury is friendler gentler
    kinder mercury these people are not on the same
    planet as us for one they were talking about the
    unknown factor the two salts mixed mercury and
    aluminum the killing factor is 10 x a single heavy
    metal is. At the simpsonwood meeting where Rodger
    bernier told everybody to consider what they heard
    embargoed information you see the CDC is not to
    hide anything from we the people everything with
    complete transparency these people are out of
    controll and you talk about conflict of interest
    these people get conflict of interest wavers
    yrs in advance so they can be on committees
    to help vote in the next block buster drug or
    vaccine. And they want to destroy Dr Wakefield
    who has only had the best interest of our kids
    at heart you may only have little quirks but children
    like my son are suffering with bowel disorders and
    mainstreme medicine says these kids beat on them
    selves because of behavior problems they said my
    son does not po po because he just dont like the
    feeling then I showed them and told them he grunts till blood comes out of his butt and fills his diaper they
    then look at you with blank stares then state some
    children don’t go for several days the gas pains in
    my son were so bad we were giving him gas x six
    times a day he broke his ankle bone twice twisting
    contorting his body these kids are sick not psychologic
    they are manafesting psychologically but in real pain
    but even if the DRs want to say something for fear
    they cannot because of the threat of retaliation from
    HHS, AAP, CDC, FDA, now thats not a conspiracy
    it’s just down right Greed any body looking at vaccines
    cannot get research grants you want to know how out of controll the pharma is a researcher told me his friend
    noticed when a certain drug came out that his patients retnas was falling apart so he asked a friend if they knew this his friend worked at the maker the next thing he knew
    he recieved a call metioning his daughters name who
    they should not have ever known If you don’t believe
    people who have billions to lose will not threaten, manipulate data, even harm people, you have not
    been watching the headlines lately I hate to say it
    you are so smart that you are stupid or you are just comfortable in your own little world and you said
    I could hurt research and don’t care about the autistic
    people you could not be more wrong my friend you
    think I have 35, 000 articles on my computer because
    I do not care again you could not be more wrong

    When you read my excerpts from the leaked
    minutes of the IOM meeting then read the
    Byron child world exclusive following the
    excerpts

    JOE ————————– ft worth

    This is the proof the CDC bought the
    IOM

    DOES THIS 1ST EXCERPT SOUND LIKE THEY FOUND NO LINK?

    IN EXCERPT 2 THEY THE CDC IS ORDERING THE IOM NOT TO FIND
    CAUSATION IGNORE THE FIVE GOOD BIOLOGICAL STUDIES
    AND PUT ALL THERE CONFIDENCE IN POPULATION BASED
    STUDIES THAT WE NOW KNOW HAVE BEEN FAKED AND
    ACCORDING TO CONGRESS FATE-ALLY FLAWED

    IN EXCERPT # 3 THEIR MINDS WERE MADE UP BEFORE THEY SAW
    ANY STUDIES NOT TO MENTION THEY WERE ORDERED NOT TO FIND
    CAUSATION. TO THESE PEOPLE OUR CHILDREN MEAN NOTHING

    ALL THOUGH IN PRIVATE THEY MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE IT’S A HARD
    DECISION WE MAKE KNOWING THAT THEIR WILL HAVE TO BE LAMBS
    SACRIFICED FOR THE GOOD OF THE WHOLE. I WONDER IF THAT
    HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES GUY THAT MADE THAT STATEMENT
    KNEW THAT THEY WERE SACRIFICED SO PEOPLE COULD SAVE
    FIFTY CENTS TO TWO DOLLARS A CHILD

    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    EXCERPT # 1
    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree –
    that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”
    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    EXCERPT # 2
    -When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
    contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
    Allen
    stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
    “redacted” or
    blacked-out format.

    The IOM stated “no comment” to byronchild about the leaked transcript
    or its
    use in the pending civil court case.
    —————————————————————————————————————————-
    EXCERPT # 3
    Specifically sited are statements by the IOM’s study director Kathleen
    Stratton, PhD, and committee chair Marie McCormick, MD. These
    statements,
    the law firm says, strongly suggest Stratton and McCormick deliberately
    railroaded their committee into specific outcomes (all in italics
    directly
    from court document):

    Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
    agency
    “wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population
    basis.” (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

    “The committee’s bias and predetermination of the causality issues
    presented
    are found at page 74 in a comment from Dr. Stratton:

    Dr. Stratton: “We said this before you got here, and I think we said
    this
    yesterday, the point of no return, the line we will not cross in public
    policy is to pull the vaccine, change the schedule. We could say it is
    time
    to revisit this but we will never recommend that level. Even
    recommending
    research is recommendations for policy. We wouldn’t say compensate, we
    wouldn’t say pull the vaccine, we wouldn’t say stop the program.”

    Similarly, Dr. McCormick, at page 97 in discussing whether autism could
    be
    associated with vaccines, stated that “we are not ever going to come
    down
    that it is a true side effect,” despite the fact that the committee had
    not
    yet considered any evidence on this issue.

  26. Tom July 30, 2007 at 12:03 #

    Oh, I see. There’s no science to support the claim that thimerosal causes autism so one must concoct a ridiculous conspiracy theory. The IOM is nobody’s fool. The panelists selected for the committee are independent scientists who can’t be bought or sold.

    The CDC and FDA employs thousands and thousands of regular folks like you and me and if there was a conspiracy, do you really think they would all remain silent and continue to vaccinate their kids? Maybe the feds are all MIB.

    The thimerosal/MMR camp looks more ridiculous with each passing day. They have joined the UFO Area 51 alien autopsy, flouride as a communist plot, fake moon landing, adherents.

  27. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 12:51 #

    HN If you read my whole post you will see that i am
    saying that the mercury that was given in all but the
    MMR and polio vaccine was the straw that broke the camels back in the late 80’s early 90’s double then
    tripple the amount of mercury I believe that it is mercury
    poisoning that causes the MMR to cause a bowel disorder
    or that they all work to gather in what we see in differing
    degrees in autism never once did I say mmr has thimerosal in it in fact this is what I said I unlike
    so called autism experts know that there is no mercury
    or thimerosal in the MMR for it would kill the live viruses.
    You are wrong it was 2004 at last check with govenors counsel and remember this DR wiel at simpsonwood
    stated There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem so the earlier
    they went you know tcv containing flu shots in pregnant women you think maybe it because every knows that
    thimerosal crosses the placenta and the blood brain
    barrier but oh! theres not a blood brain barrier at that age
    0 dosen’t it make you wonder why after knowing DR wiel
    concern of going earlier could be worse why would she
    do that also knowing the MSDS sheet states preg.
    women should not be exposed to this product seems to
    me shes looking for out comes remember we have a plan in place again preg women and children 6mos to 5 yrs
    of age knowing two studies one for children saying chlldren 6 mos to 2 yrs get absolutly no bennifit except
    that of a placebo effect. In the UK the Cochrane Collaboration stating the inactivated flu vacc.
    no evidence it even works thats your country saying
    that not mine this is worse than treason for both of our
    countrys remember the key word once speaking of the
    MMR and back then the mercury was very minamal
    now we have doubled and trippled the amount of
    mercury now im no rocket scienctist but it seems to
    me they were concerned that this is acumelative in
    the children my son was checked to see if he cannot
    excrete mercury because of his genetics you see my
    child is alergic to sulfas he swelled when he took a
    sulfa based drug I believe thats a sign to being a sub
    set group pre desposed to the damage done remember pinks was 1 in every 500 so we had a group pre desposed to the damage done then as well as now
    pinks was mercury poisoning through teething powders
    and even though it was bad it went through the bodys filters were as vacineal mercury is worse by far it by passes the filters of the body we are talking about bolus
    doses at one time. Read simpsonwood read the leaked merk memo hilaman saying when veiwed this way it
    seems like a rather large dose what way bolus doses
    and vacineal. Not like other mercury poisonings that
    were injested but again going through the god given
    protections of the body that we bypass by vacineal
    I stayed up all night to do this because I care so
    much for the autistics
    ps my GP DR that treating my son for three times the testostarone level as a nt child said that it blind sided
    him that taking down the testostarone could stop some of his agression but getting to the science I said I knew
    ethylmercury causes apoptosis aluminum apoptosis
    and from yale university high testostarone apoptosis
    the two salts mixed x10 apatosis with all this nuron
    cell death going on could that be what we call autism
    Yep you betcha you really think 87 times what the epa
    allows safe and remember thats per daily allowance
    not bolus doses and that never was considerd out loud
    nor the aluminum salts for the synergy effect and now
    we know that these kids have high testostarone levels
    and remember this testostarone is drawn to mercury
    so I would say the mystery is solved about autism
    theres no such disorder it is a nureltoxin and a virus
    insult that overwelms the childs body in a child that
    does not excrete heavy metals the measles enbeds
    in to the childs gut and spinal like the hero wakefield
    found and has been repacated 3 times it’s pretty stupid
    to say he caused pain in these children when drawing
    blood these bastards at the GMC and the CDC
    are responsible for children hitting them selves bitting down to the bone
    in thier fingers digging ruts in thier faces and lets not
    forget murdering and drowning runaway little children
    falling out of windows burning themselves up now who
    is worse and thats not the mothers jumping from bridges
    with thier children one dad so desperate he cut his childs throat in the bath tub yep I would put them worse than hitler he did what he did for hate these people do thier
    dirty little deeds in secret under the umbrella of greed

  28. Kev July 30, 2007 at 13:20 #

    Joe, you’re either an existential poet/beatnik or you’re copying and pasting these comments in from somewhere else. Either way, its just about impossible to read.

    Line breaks, paragraphs, full stops. Punctuation Joe. These things are your friends. I can’t fight my way through another stream-of-conciousness outpouring, sorry.

    BTW – Ray Gallup continues to act like a dickhead, so I’ve banned him.

  29. hj July 30, 2007 at 14:59 #

    Ouch, my eyes hurt.

  30. bones July 30, 2007 at 15:33 #

    pe·ri·od [peer-ee-uhd] –noun
    the point or character (.) used to mark the end of a declarative sentence, indicate an abbreviation, etc.; full stop.

  31. HN July 30, 2007 at 17:00 #

    Also, with the lack of grammar… there is a total lack of real evidence. I could not find one verifiable reference (cherry picking quotes from an unreferenced conversation does not count).

    There is no, nor has there ever been a connection between mercury and the MMR vaccine. There is no scientific evidence to connect the two.

    You did write “MMR and polio vaccine was the straw that broke the camels back in the late 80’s early 90’s double then tripple the amount of mercury I believe that it is mercury poisoning that causes the MMR to cause a bowel disorder”

    Key notes from that approximation of a sentence:

    1) Polio vaccine was developed and started to be used in the 1960s. The only real change is a switch between the oral to injected forms, OPV to IPV in the 1990s. See the book _Polio, An American Story_ by David Oshinsky.

    2) The MMR vaccine has been used in the USA since the early 1970s. This was a time when kids were getting a bigger jolt of mercury through things like vaccines AND Mercurochrome (which was distributed until 1998… I know that as a kid we used this liberally in chigger bites). You can read about the developer of that vaccine in http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinated-Defeat-Worlds-Deadliest-Diseases/dp/0061227951/

    3) Key phrase in your response was “I believe”. Why should we believe in what you believe without any real evidence? Why should we listen to you? Perhaps you will be taken more seriously after you read this:
    http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781592573936,00.html

    Now answer my question using your own words, with actual verifiable references and without cutting and pasting from some website (the tell tell hint are the random line breaks). Explain why the MMR that was approved for use in the USA in 1971, only seemed to start causing problems in the UK a full twenty years after it was developed.

  32. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 17:16 #

    tom I guess you never read the simpson wood transcripts one of the scientist said my new grand child a boy will
    not be getting TCV’S until we know whats going on here
    and that is going take a long time that takes care of one
    thing you said not to continue to vaccinate their kids?

    The IOM we did not have the FOIA right because the
    IOM is non governmental agency so someone was
    evidently worried about what they heard to leak the minutes do you not agree ? this is from the minutes
    —————————————————————————
    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree – that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”

    Now truley does this sound like they found nothing
    or were they more worried about the vaccine program
    than telling the truth looks like you did not read what
    I wrote you can read can’t you

    In another part of the transcript marie says

    Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
    agency
    “wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population
    basis.” (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

    and not to look at the science. the way it’s stated
    in the transcript is walt wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population basis and what walt wants walt generally gets
    that kind of ordering them not to find a link don’t ya think
    you can think for your self cant’ you or do you need a
    person like marie that willing to poison children to think
    for you are you really this stupid that you cannot see
    these people are not worried about our kids they are
    worried about what this could do to the vaccine program
    hence the lies and the refuseal to look at the five good biological studies AND PUT ALL THERE CONFIDENCE IN POPULATION BASED
    STUDIES THAT WE NOW KNOW HAVE BEEN FAKED AND
    ACCORDING TO CONGRESS FATE-ALLY FLAWED
    one study was by verstraiten his work was changed by
    the CDC 5 times he him self went to work for GSK 3 and
    a half yrs earlier GSK was in litigation with parents of autistic kids but his work some how got in the AAP journal
    can you say direct conflict of interest worse than wakefields and his earlier work were he found a link
    was destroyed even when DR congressman weldon
    was warning dir of the CDC that he were worried about the safety of his original work but they the CDC destroyed it anyway sound rational to you

    now the canot be bought statement did you here a trusted high up scientist sold alzimers samples to a
    pharma co. they said they dont think he did any thing
    wrong what planet are they from oh! I remember MIB
    THE BALLS NOW IN YOUR COURT

  33. Brian Deer July 30, 2007 at 17:18 #

    What always surprises me that there is no trail of whistleblowers (protected under US law) coming out of the CDC, or any other federal agency, claiming that vaccine data has been rigged/fabricated/suppressed, or whatever. No Ph.D students saying; “Hell, we won’t take this.”

    Compare that to the Wakefield situation, where there’s a veritable queue of his former collaborators and associates denouncing him.

    All on the payroll of big pharma?

    So why isn’t there anybody coming out of big pharma with the dirt?

    I can tell you, anybody who could show anything like the kind of misconduct alleged by these antivax loonies would get a week on Oprah, a book deal, and probably a movie of their lives.

    It’s just bullshit. Not even worth engaging with.

  34. Joseph July 30, 2007 at 17:20 #

    Joe: Have you been evaluated for autism? I’m not making fun or insulting you, seriously. Please don’t take it that way. I’m autistic myself. I knew that many years before my son was even born, but once he was diagnosed, it all became a more central part of my life and the way I view and (now) accept myself. Autism is probably the most genetic neurological “disorder” that has been only defined phenotypically. When a child is autistic, it’s common for the parents to be in the spectrum or close to it. To state the obvious, atypical communication is a core feature of autism.

  35. HN July 30, 2007 at 17:21 #

    Sorry Joe, you have still not answered my question. You have not even attempted it, especially since the Simpsonwood conference was not about the MMR (which has never contained thimerosal… along with deficits in grammar and spelling, do you also have a reading disability?).

    I see you have been making the rounds your unique style has been noted here:
    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/

  36. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 17:32 #

    Guys I do apologize im not sticken with some thing that makes me perfect like you im just a dad of a severly sick child but i will concede my writing sucks but my sincerity
    is genuine.

  37. HN July 30, 2007 at 17:59 #

    Just try to use real evidence. Simpsonwood does not count for MMR because it says on page 11:
    “There will not be much discussion today about polio, measles, mumps,
    rubella, varicella or Hepatitis A. These vaccines have not, and do not contain Thimerosal. The focus is going to be about Hepatitis B, DTP and H. flu vaccine.”

    By the way, many of us also have disabled children. Several have kids with autism, I have a child who had a seizure disorder and now a very severe heart condition who can be a harmed by the actual diseases (he was in very real danger while our county had a pertussis epidemic). This child has been hospitalized several times, and had ten years of speech therapy (and despite being severely learning disabled, his prose is much easier to read). Don’t try the “oh, I have a sick kid… you need to listen to me because my kid is severely sick” ploy. That does not excuse you for not providing actual verifiable evidence.

    We are not “perfect” people, but some of us have been dealing with vaccine fearmongers for a very long time. I first encountered these people when I worked to keep my health impaired baby away from them when our county was having a pertussis epidemic. This was also a time that measles returned to the USA and killed over 120 real people (and probably disabled many many more).

    I would suggest you do a little bit of reading before trying to convince us any further.

    First try this blog comment on how the Simpsonwood was misrepresented:
    http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/lies_damn_lies_.html

    Then some books…
    _Vaccine, the Controversial Story_ by Arthur Allen
    _Vaccinated_ by Paul Offit
    _Plagues and Peoples_ by William McNeill
    _Flu, the Story of the Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918_ by Gina Kolata
    _The Great Influenza_ by John Barry
    _Deaf Like Me_ by Thomas Spradley and James Spradley

    And this online book, here are the chapters:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm

    Do not come back until you have attempted to read some of the above, and have a better answer to my question, and my other question: Which vaccine in the present pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the actual disease?

    Remember to include actual references. If you say the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis, show where you get the information. You are allowed two web links on this blog.

  38. notmercury July 30, 2007 at 18:24 #

    Joe Harris Says: “Guys I do apologize im not sticken with some thing that makes me perfect like you im just a dad of a severly sick child but i will concede my writing sucks but my sincerity is genuine.”

    Well I, for one, think you are awesome, Joe. You’re doing a much better job than most of the anti-vaxxers here. Keep up the good work.

  39. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 18:46 #

    You ND’ S do not even answer the document about the IOM and how they were willing to lie than for the truth to get out

    brian deer this is for you , you don’t live here last year
    or so one of the scientist that worked for the FDA came forward on viox cases. They his friends he worked for
    turned on him he was seeking whistle blower status.
    At last count he was put in charge of the water fountain
    still had his job so to speak. You give congress to much
    credit most of them are paid pharma whores senate also
    these people at the CDC are scared to death but I cannot change
    your mind you sold out a long time ago like I said christ will have the last laugh it seems to me you being a reporter would have something to say about people willing to lie
    to keep up vaccine rates in fact the only way you would not have something to say is that you sold your soul and
    your profession

  40. notmercury July 30, 2007 at 18:58 #

    JH:… like I said christ will have the last laugh…

    Well that doesn’t sound very Christian-like.

  41. Joseph July 30, 2007 at 19:18 #

    “You ND’ S do not even answer the document about the IOM and how they were willing to lie than for the truth to get out”

    Are you referring to the Simpsonwood transcript or to some other document I’m unaware of?

  42. HN July 30, 2007 at 19:25 #

    Joe Harris said “You ND’ S do not even answer the document about the IOM and how they were willing to lie than for the truth to get out”

    Sigh, could you please try reading this for comprehension:
    http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/lies_damn_lies_.html

    And for the third (or is it the fourth) time, the Simpsonwood meeting had nothing to do with MMR.

    Now, it has come to light in an American courtroom that Wakefield ignored negative test results. It has also come to light that he was paid a substantial amount of UK tax payers money to find fault in the MMR, and the only way he could do that was by ignoring the actual test results. Now who is the real liar?

  43. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 19:33 #

    HN I am sorry for your childs problems but at least
    your child speaks mine can only scream be thankful to god for that. my son was perfectly normal how many
    times must we tell you guys this is destroying normal children not that your child is not normal if anything
    I have been humbled by this and if anybody hurts a
    handycapped child verbally or otherwise I get very
    angry and say things I should not say I became very
    protective of my little guy. You mention paul offit
    I have a problem with a scientist that says quote
    (( I think full disclosier is not a good idea ))
    so people like him would be our protectors you can’t prove it to me by that quote the man voted in roto virus
    vaccine knowing the dangers of sepsus the twisting of
    the childs intestins was a concern. It soon did what they
    were worried it might do it was recalled. But old profit
    was thinking ahead the joint patton with merk it’s always
    money with these people they can’t fear god and do the things they do. They must be atheist not a slur just if there
    is no after life there is no one to be acountable to so why not burn childrens brains twist thier thier guts i am acountable to nobody

  44. Joseph July 30, 2007 at 19:41 #

    Skeptico, who actually read and reread the Simpsonwood transcript line by line, wrote a couple great analyses. The one linked by HN above is a follow-up to this one:

    http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/robert_f_kenned.html

  45. HN July 30, 2007 at 19:45 #

    JH said “how many times must we tell you guys this is destroying normal children not that your child is not normal if anything”

    Evidence?

    What is destroying normal children and how is it being done?

    I’ve know of rubella destroying a normal developing fetus, or causing severe disabilities. I know of Hib causing a child seizures and making him severely learning disabled. Also I know of Hib killing a toddler. I know that four people became deaf last year because of mumps. I know of measles causing blindless in a couple of boys, also putting one into a wheelchair. I know that measles killed Roald Dahl’s oldest daughter. I know that polio whithered the legs of a woman who swims at the local pool. I know that 15 to 20 American babies die because of pertussis each year.

    Could you be a bit more specific?

  46. bones July 30, 2007 at 19:51 #

    Listen, in all seriousness, I have two comments.

    First, I am tired of the EoH-ers describing the Simpsonwood meeting as a super-double-secret-covert-clandestine meeting. The CDC is not obligated to invite the public to every single meeting it holds, and the fact the the transcript was always publicly available (albeit through FOIA, but public nonetheless) sort of rules out the whole surriptitious-deceptive-private-subversive meeting theory that, by-the-by was first purported by SafeMinds (I believe).

    Second, I am also tired of the whole Big-Pharma-Controls-All conspiracy theory. Granted, the pharmaceutical industry is very influentional, no doubt. But to suggest they have the ability to essentially buy every judge, university, and reputable researcher in the U.S., U.K., Canada, etc, AND cover-up a “raging epidemic” is absolutely absurd. If they were that powerful then they would have focused their efforts on litigation with legitimately published science (eg, Fen/Phen, antidepressants, VIOXX, etc…), rather than the double talking gibberish belched up by Geier, Haley, et al.

  47. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 20:05 #

    joseph nice name it reminds me of somebody me!

    the minutes leaked of the IOM meeting you can read them
    thanks to somebody concerned enough about what he or
    she heard at the meeting you know lieing so people will
    in thier words
    —————————————————————————–
    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree – that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.
    if you can read this and say they were not lieing
    you have a problem with reality
    when they reported to the the public no causeation
    and dont look at vaccines put your money were you will get the most bang for yor research dollar

    remember they were orderd not to find causeation

    Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
    agency
    “wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population
    basis.” (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

    and not to look at the science. the way it’s stated
    in the transcript is walt wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population basis and what walt wants walt generally gets

    stacked deck huh, You really think these people are in it
    four the right reason the good of our children if they get
    any better at it we want have any more children left

  48. Joseph July 30, 2007 at 20:23 #

    Well, Joe, you obviously did not read Skeptico’s analysis (the one linked by HN above) where he specifically addresses the quotes you just posted. They are clearly taken out of context. You need to read a few sentences before and a few sentences after to realize nothing sinister is going on.

    Interestingly, if you look at that thread, Critical Thinker, who is the parent who challenged Skeptico with those quotes back in 2005, promised he’d rebutt Skeptico on his analysis, but never did. The only somewhat critical comments in that thread came from Ginger, who was being pretty reasonable and said she didn’t necessarily have a problem with Skeptico’s interpretations of the quotes.

    What I think happened is that people came in with preconceptions and read into it what the wanted to read into it. Skeptico did a great job of putting the quotes in context and parsing the language.

  49. Joe Harris July 30, 2007 at 20:48 #

    joseph what i am talking about is the IOM not the simpson
    wood they are two different meetings thank you for not being mean spirited and having civil debate with me
    i will be leaving yall now but the debate is not over
    thanks for putting up with my bad grammer and not
    much peer-ee-uhd that was for bones

  50. HN July 30, 2007 at 21:50 #

    The IOM (http://www.nomercury.org/iom/iom.pdf ) is what is being discussed in the link I gave you. Try again for comprehension:
    http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/lies_damn_lies_.html

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