As per this story from David Kirby in the HuffPo.
I have some doubts about it but lets see. I’ve emailed David Kirby to ask him to provide me with a full copy of the concession. His willingness to provide this information as well as the information itself should tell us more about what this concession report contains.
Comments are closed.
| Ryan Wagener on Mr. Wright, is autism an epide… | |
| Sullivan (Matt Carey… on Reportedly, Mark Blaxill is a… | |
| Dorit Rubinstein Rei… on Reportedly, Mark Blaxill is a… | |
| Blog Post 2: What… on Looking back at two decades of… | |
| Chris on Want the Nobel Prize for Warp… |
Yes, this is a different topic than typical for this blog. But, let’s consider a simple and obvious lie by our president: the As is typical for this president, this project involves multiple lies. Here are but two. First, the White House would not be changed itself. Just added to. As noted in a recent […]
How does one recapture trust in the public health system? I can tell you one way to make it worse. Put Mark Baxill to work at the CDC. Mr. Blaxill is a long time anti-vaccine activist who has done a lot of harm promoting the “vaccines cause autism” lie. We on this blog have been […]
The same people who might value your efforts with Operation Warp Speed will also be able to do the simple math in their heads that says Mr. Kennedy’s approach is going to kill people. Mr. Trump, there is a lot of chatter about you wanting the Nobel Peace Prize. OK, I know you’ve publicly stated […]
We pay for the CDC. It isn’t there to support Mr. Kennedy’s agenda. It’s there to generate good information that Mr. Kennedy can use or, sadly, not use. He can’t ask them to sign off on dangerous vaccine policy and then cry “restore trust” to excuse firing the trusted experts who are, in his own […]
I will state this straight out–I believe the anti vaccine movement has put good people at risk for decades with their rhetoric. And I also believe Mr. Kennedy has contributed a great deal to this climate of hate. How much or how directly he may have influenced the gunman who opened fire at the CDC […]
Left Brain Right Brain
Hey, Kev…Kathleen Seidel might know more about this (and at least SHE will answer your emails. Who knows about Kirby?) I seem to remember reading (and I think it was on Neurodiversity) that there was one child who was truly found to deserve compensation from vaccine injury, but that the board had denied the compensation was related to his/her autism. The compensation, rather, was related to another health problem the child has.
Also, look at how carefully Kirby phrased the child’s diagnosis which (from the way he wrote this) does not simply refer to autism:
“Seven months after vaccination, the patient was diagnosed by Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, a leading neurologist at the Kennedy Krieger Children’s Hospital Neurology Clinic, with ‘regressive encephalopathy (brain disease) with features consistent with autistic spectrum disorder, following normal development.’ The girl also met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) official criteria for autism.”
Oh, I am enraged by Kirby’s article!!!! I just posted on it. As usual, Kirby picks & chooses what he will expand on, what points he’ll skim over (i.e. this child has a documented mitochondrial disorder!!!). And, all of his “supporters” are just salivating at this. Mr. Kirby, this has NOTHING to do with the children you claim were “injured” by vaccines, or whose brains were “poisoned” by mercury. I know it’s hard for you, David, but perhaps next time read the facts!!
It is hard to see the _causative_ link Kirby refers to. I think Kirby’s choice of whether to pass on this report will figure just as heavily as his choice of words (and which words he’s left out).
Reading the actual coverage, if Kirby wants to keep the autism vaccination connection alive, what does he want us to believe – that all autistic children have mitochondrial disease, that a subset of autistic children have mitochondrial disease, that mitochondrial disease is caused by mercury, or as is conceded here that it may be exacerbated by vaccines? If I were the company, I’d fight that exacerbation scenario, but this is apparently vaccines court and they’re inclined to be lenient.
And exactly why are there an average of an EXTRA thousand cases of AUTISM per state when 20 years ago there were from ZERO to less than a handful?
I think it was an unmissable chance to give you an opportunity to rant in caps John. We all know how you love that.
Anyway, Mr Kirby has replied to my email with the full text so I’m going to have a read of it and ask a few friends to have a read too. Watch this space…
You need to read the Journal of Child Neurology article. A 19 month old female developed autistic symptoms after being vaccinated, The trail lead to the discovery of a metabolic disorder. The disorder was treated successfully and so were the autistic symptoms. The authors also show the prevalence of the disorder in autistic and NT populations. I don’t know if it’s the same child.
They also state that children with the disorder may become autistic or more autistic due to the oxidative stress of vaccination or disease.
This is a serious article and should not be summarily discounted.
It should be asked if the oxidative stress of getting one of the diseases prevented by he vaccination would of also resulted in autistic symptoms.
It can be asked if the child truly had autism. She met the DSM-IV criteria.
You take a condition defined solely by its symptoms. The people who suffer it range from those taking umbrage at it being called a disorder and seeking to remove it from the DSM-IV, to people who it very seriously disables., there is certainly a chance that on very rare occasions a child may develop autistic symptoms from the vaccination.
Just as on other very rare occasions vaccines have caused harm in other ways. The problem is that the anti-vaccine folks with tout this and some people will refuse to vaccinate their children.
Every one in a while you read of someone who fell from a great height and survived, I doubt the anti-vaccine folks would jump off the nearest tall building because it is possible to beat the odds. They would note the special conditions involved, in the survival and conclude that reproducing those conditions would be very difficult, and choose not to plummet to their death. Yet, I’m sure on this their thinking will not follow that paradigm
I think it would be fantastic if vaccination or disease in combination with a mitochondrial disorder were a common cause of autism, and the symptoms were so easily treatable.
The article does not say
The respondent’s summary seemed reasonable to me. It’s likely the child in question did suffer vaccine damage, and deserved compensation. It’s nothing we didn’t already know. Vaccine damage happens, although rarely.
I guess the issue in this case is that the child, in addition to other medical problems, had an autism spectrum diagnosis or autistic features. But if non-autistic kids are represented among those suffering vaccine damage, I don’t see why autistic kids would not be. In fact, you’d expect autistic kids to be overrepresented, just because neurological damage will tend to manifest as autism more often that it would manifest as non-autism.
Kev,
Kirby referred to this case already last year in one of his letters.
There is a public reference to it in a letter relating to the Omnibus hearings:
Click to access modifying.pdf
I have to agree with Kristina, that there seems to be a lot of wordsmithing going on in both camps. It’s just a guess, but my understanding is that the specific term “Autism” is clinically different from “ASD” which is what she was actually diagnosed with.
The government wording is even more cryptic: “…and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of ASD.”
I don’t know how one distinguishes between features of ASD and ASD since I thought it was a disorder defined by a specific set of features.
I am surprised it took this long for Kirby or anyone else to actually talk about the case. I’m guessing there is more public information available now, or perhaps they just finalized the settlement despite knowing it was going to settle a couple of months ago.
I know it was talked about before but I wanted the full text before I said anything about it. I also want to talk to a few friends about it. I also want to know if I’m going to get in legal trouble by posting it!
mayfly – yes, its the same child.
“I also want to know if I’m going to get in legal trouble by posting it!”
It’s already available
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/every-american-should-rea_b_88558.html
I think we can be reasonably confident that if this case told us much about whether MMR, thimerosal, or the two combined, causes autism, it wouldn’t have been taken out of the omnibus proceedings. Evidently by agreement.
“if this case told us much about whether MMR, thimerosal, or the two combined, causes autism, it wouldn’t have been taken out of the omnibus proceedings. Evidently by agreement.”
If one side concedes can the other continue?
century – available elsewhere is not my blog. If JB wants to sue me to intimidate me then others could too and there are laws protecting the use of redacted info.
As per your second point – in an omnibus case, yes.
Clearly, if the child meets the criteria for ASD, he’s autistic, period. I never liked “autistic-but” diagnoses. It’s conceivable, though, that a new disorder might come out of this, or a new table injury. (Assuming this is something new – is it?) But anyone who expects the new table injury to be simply “autism” or simply “mental retardation” or something like that, is seriously delusional.
One of the reasons I’m hanging on before posting anything is that I’ve contacted Zimmerman to try and get his thoughts on a few things. One of the things I want to clear up is ‘autistic features’ vs ‘meeting the DSM criteria for autism’.
Century said
“If one side concedes can the other continue?”
Kevin replied
“in an omnibus case, yes”
Ok – your obviously clued up, unlike me, so please explain how and why.
“One of the things I want to clear up is ‘autistic features’ vs ‘meeting the DSM criteria for autism’.”
The nutshell version would be that it’s a quantitative measure. That is to say, a child may have some autistic [like] symptoms/features but not enough to obtain an ASD diagnosis (I believe the magic number is 6).
They would also have to rule out Rett’s and Childhood Disintegrative Disorder.
Age of onset is another factor, though I don’t know that it plays in this particular matter.
Kev,
I blogged twice on this yesterday, as it hit home (having my child seen by the same mito doc as this child did, and having my child diagnosed for a time with “static encephalopathy with features consistent with autism spectrum disorder” and “having autistic features,” but being told that was not a diagnosis of Autism–that came 12+ months later). I’m no expert, trust me. But, perhaps my personal knowledge of mitochondrial disorders, and the whole “autistic features” thing would be of interest to you. The 2 writings are in the link to my name. Take care.
SL, thanks, I read your first one already. I totally missed the fact that your child had seen the same doc (Zimmerman?). I will contact you offblog if thats OK.
century – if one side concededs in an omnibus (at least, in this omnibus) whats happened is that both sides have agreed that the case in question is not able to represent the side in question for whatever reason. This case is therefore withdrawn from the test cases, a new one takes its place and the omnibus carries on.
One thing that is definite about this – fascinating though it is, it’ll have no legal bearing on the outcome of the omnibus hearings.
One of the immediate reactions from the mercury parents (per the EoHam group) to the withdrawal of this case from the Omnibus a few months ago was that the rest of the parents shouldn’t get excited that this case was conceded because the child had a specific underlying disorder that the other kids didn’t have.
I don’t know why Kirby and Handley are all atwitter over this now. It’s the same situation. She’s a girl who seems to have had a reaction to the chickenpox vaccine which may have triggered a problem that would have happened even if she had not been vaccinated, for instance if she had caught the wild-type chickenpox or measles or flu…
one expert says he sees that ear infections seem to be the “trigger” in the majority of the kids he sees (if I understood him correctly).
This girl had a series of ear infections over and over again **before** she got the vaccinations that her parents think triggered her autistic symptoms.
“if one side concededs in an omnibus (at least, in this omnibus) whats happened is that both sides have agreed that the case in question is not able to represent the side in question for whatever reason”
Your opinion or fact?
“This case is therefore withdrawn from the test cases,……”
Withdrawn because it’s been conceded before the case was heard. You can’t have a concession AND still carry the case on to court, can you?
“….a new one takes its place and the omnibus carries on.”
Agreed
Let’s think about this for a minute.
The OAP is dealing with three theories and no more. They are: based on the preponderance of the evidence, it is more likely than not, that thimerosal, mmr, or the combination of the two, had a direct causative effect on the child’s ASD diagnosis.
The govt, in this particualr case, conceded that the vaccine(s) (as a whole) aggravated an underlying condition (mitochondrial ppd) which, in turn caused the child (vis-a-vis regressive encephalopathy) to express autistic-like symptoms. Again, autistic-like because the child was never diagnosed with ASD…for reasons I have expressed above.
They correctly conceded because it has been scientifically shown that vaccines can aggravate Mito-PPD, which in turn can cause developmental delays of varying severity.
Consequently, this case could not be used as a test case (to any of the 3 theories above) because the Mito-PPD would in effect act as a confound.
For Kirby and the rest of the anti-vaxer to say this helps their cause is baffling to say the least. First, this has nothing to do with specific ingrediants contained with the vaccine (eg thimerosal, aluminum, etc…), and secondly, this does nothing to evidence that autistic children (of which this child was not) are in anyway poor excretors of Hg, or have MV in their gut.
Not to mention other reasons…
All this decision does is help feed the anti-vaxers mantra of “all vaccines in some way or another damage children to some extant or another.”
That’s a pretty broad brush.
Thank you for summing it up perfectly, Bones! I needed that…perhaps one day more people will actually read the facts of the case & realize what was really conceded hre.
Unfortunately, the anti-vaxers like their big broad brush and won’t put it down anytime soon (it’s now a big, goopy, sludgy mess of a really nasty gray-brown).
“You can’t have a concession AND still carry the case on to court, can you?”
The Court of Special Claims? Why would you? The govt has conceded that the individual’s injury was attributable to the vaccine(s). Ergo, the petitioners are entitled to compensation. End of story.
If, however, you’re asking whether petitioners can proceed to civil court, after securing compensation in Special Claims Court, the answer is no.
I don’t believe “double dipping”, as it were, is allowed under any circumstance, but there could be an exception I am unaware of (eg, consideration of punitive damages).
Again, what a sad and sorry site this truly is.
Soon you will want to burn all the kids at the stake.
Truly you all live in a vapid world of learned assumptions.
Keep typing monkeys at least until you move out of your parents basements.
C-ya
On the question of vaccine court procedure, actually I’m pretty sure claimants *can* choose to go to civil court even after winning in Vaccine Court – but they have to reject whatever they were awarded there, too, so still no double-dipping.
If this is the same patient in the article by Poling on mitochondrial dysfunction in a child with autism, then the child does appear to have been given a diagnosis of autism on the basis of the very brief rating scale called Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS). However, first, that’s not a particularly valid diagnostic tool — it’s a screening tool; and second, in a child under three it is very difficult to achieve reliability or validity in autism diagnoses. As a result, the autism diagnosis should be understood in that context. Indeed, no diagnosis of an ASD, let alone one using the CARS on a toddler, is
perfect.
Joel, that could very well be. I was going off the Rule 4(c) report, and didn’t notice any mention of CARS.
Campainge, thanks for letting me know I hit a nerve with you anti-vax ass-clowns. But do me a favor, will you? The next time you have a thought, let it go.
_”Keep typing monkeys”_
You win the ‘Weirdest Thing Ever Suggested’ award for 2008. Bravo.
Ms. Clark said,
“…She’s a girl who seems to have had a reaction to the chickenpox vaccine which may have triggered a problem that would have happened even if she had not been vaccinated, for instance if she had caught the wild-type chickenpox or measles or flu…”
Like from some someone who might be unvaccinated, for example. Perhaps another point to keep in mind.
On the question of vaccine court procedure, actually I’m pretty sure claimants can choose to go to civil court even after winning in Vaccine Court – but they have to reject whatever they were awarded there, too, so still no double-dipping.
I believe in doing so, a claimaint would also have to leave behind all discovery. Any discovery created for the vaccine court stays in the vaccine court.
Keep typing monkeys at least until you move out of your parents basements.
B, let me share something I learned long ago. The comma is a beautiful thing — it can destroy ambiguity in a single stroke of its curly little tail.
And let me tell you something else. A lot of the folks commenting on this thread, and a lot of folks who have a big problem with the way many OAP petitioners and autism litigation plaintiffs are trying to spin this matter, are, like me and (presumably) you, parents of ASD kids and young adults. And I’m sure I’m not the only one who doesn’t appreciate the kind of disrespect that’s so evident in your crack about kids who live in their parents’ basements. A lot of kids live with their parents — some because of the economy, others because they need a few more years’ worth of logistical support before they move out on their own, others because crisis hits and they need help and move back to the old homestead, and others because they have a good relationship with their parents and are happy to live in an extended-family household.
I welcome you to venture beyond your assumptions about families, ability and disability, and consider the possibility that those of us who don’t buy the autism-equals-actionable-harm scenario might have a conscientious basis for our opinions.
I keep my typing monkeys in my parent’s basement.
Yeah, but you managed an apostrophe there after the **parent** and before the “s”
“Parents basements” would mean… “basements meant to keep parents in”??? So B. Campaigne is suggesting that we keep our typing monkeys in basements designed to keep parents in? Very weird. I’m not sure that even the Columbia University IACUC would approve of that… and look at what they allowed Mady Hornig to do…
monkeys monkeys monkeys monkeys.
Heh, this is fun. Oh wait, I’m not in a basement. Damn. I’m not even in my parents house!! I luse da interwebz.
Bones said
“The govt has conceded that the individual’s injury was attributable to the vaccine(s). Ergo, the petitioners are entitled to compensation. End of story.
If, however, you’re asking whether petitioners can proceed to civil court, after securing compensation in Special Claims Court, the answer is no.
I don’t believe “double dipping”, as it were, is allowed under any circumstance, but there could be an exception I am unaware of”
Exactly.
So where do Kevin and Brian get the notion that both sides agreed to have this case withdrawn from the omnibus proceedings?
And why do they want to promote the idea of mutual withdrawal?
I think we’re talking at cross purposes century. I’m not suggesting that respondents had any other choice. I’m saying that if they felt strongly that this was a sure fire ‘mercury causes autism’ case then a concession would be meaningless. The whole section of the omnibus that this case was supposed to illustrate would be a slam dunk.
But its not. This is a case of mito rather than autism. As such the case continues.
Century, because of exactly what Kev stated, “This is a case of mito rather than autism. As such the case continues.”
Therefore, the matter will continue in the Court of Special Claims (a/k/a Vaccine Court)presumably as a matter of formality given the Dept. of HHS’ concession, however, it does not qualify for OAP consideration.
The parents concede only that their matter doesn’t belong in the OAP, knowing they will receive the needed compensation to aid their child in a regular vaccine court proceeding (w/ govt’s concession in hand).
Ms. Clark, LMAO…..that’s some funny shizzo!!
So where do Kevin and Brian get the notion that both sides agreed to have this case withdrawn from the omnibus proceedings?
And why do they want to promote the idea of mutual withdrawal?
It has been withdrawn as a test case.
Click to access modifying.pdf
Also, if they are compensated, why isn’t it a good assumption that they are no longer pursuing the omnibus proceding?
That is different than saying that the Omnibus proceding may make use of this case. The parents of this child are considering filing more expert reports.
Lastly, the document in the link above is the only place where the words “concede” or “concession” appear in relationship to this case. I don’t see anything in the decision or in the government’s statement quoted on the Huffington Post about “conceding”.
It is an excellent effort to control the message, in my opinion. Everyone has taken this phrase and is using it.
The government “resolved” a case of vaccine injury. They agreed to “compensate” a family for injury. They did not “concede an omnibus case”. That is misleading and is what is causing much of the confusion now.
Matt – are you sure? I would not have thought that discovery could be un-discovered.
I miss my typing monkeys, I also miss typing monkeys.
Sorry, I’m so over this case and the mercury/vaccines=autism parents thinking this means something to them. Alright, back to my vapid little life I go…
As the parent of two children with mitochondrial disease and autism i must reply to Mayfly’s comment that it would be fantastic if mito was a common cause of autism.
No it would not.
It would be horrendous. Mito is a horrible disease that usually leads to a limited life-span. Along the way you get to see a decline with all kinds of painful and frightening possiblities.
I know everyone wants answers, but mito is not the one you want.
Question to Kev, did you hear back from Zimmerman? I have serious reservations about the DSM IV – in that in infantile autism diagnosis is made purely on behaviours/neurological functioning without looking at any possible underlying physical causes or co-morbids. This system of diagnosing needs to be reviewed and the children who currently have dx for autism need to be revaluated for co-morbids. Every other condition or diagnosis uses medical tests to help with diagnostics. Why are childhood disorders being treated so differently? The vaccine issue needs to be kept separate from this for now until we can establish if there is a pattern amongst these children. If so they must be treated NOW – these children are suffering why you fight like imbeciles over politics. I have two children who suffer physical pain with gut problems sometimes screaming. It makes me really angry to witness these children’s pain and suffering used as ego point scoring fodder – its pathetic. Take a long look at yourselves in the mirror and ask yoursleves why you arent doing more to help these children? I think we should get animal rights activitists involved with these as they have more passion for animals than you people do for infants!