Bogus Urine Metals Testing Fails In Vaccine Court

13 Mar

The Thimersoal “test cases” in the OAP relied on bogus urine mercury testing. Among many other common problems the petitioners had in providing any sound scientific support for the notion that mecury can cause autism, that, was at least in part, the apparent conclusion of all three of the special masters.

I just skimmed through the recent decisions by the US Court Of Federal Claims in the Thimerosal “test cases” that were part of the Omnibus Autism Proceeding, and the expert testimony provided by Dr. Brent (respondent) in this regard is pretty clear:

From the Mead Decision

When specifically asked about the urine mercury tests that were performed on William, Dr. Brent said that the tests “showed pretty much exactly what you’d expect for the normal population, that their unprovoked specimens are normal. Yet, when they give chelators, most of [mercury excretion results] are increased.” Id. at 1852-1853. Dr. Brent expressed a concern about the use of data in this way to suggest that a condition exists that, in fact, does not. See id. at 1853. He stated that “it’s data like this that has been used as an excuse to subject these children to chelation therapy where the data supports [a finding] that their urine mercury status is totally normal.” Id. at 1853.

From the King Decision

Moreover, Dr. Brent explained that when the results of mercury testing of Jordan, both provoked and non-provoked, are viewed in their entirety, they are exactly what one would expect from an individual without any mercury-related problem. That is, Jordan’s non-provoked test results were within the normal range for non-provoked testing. (Tr. 1852-53, 4340.) At the same time, while his provoked results were outside the normal range for non-provoked testing, that is not surprising since the provocation/chelation process is designed to specifically provoke an increased excretion of metals. (Tr. 1852-53, 4340-41, 4347.) As Drs. Brent and Fombonne explained, administration of a chelating agent to anyone, autistic or not, mercury-poisoned or not, will always be followed by increased excretion of mercury.118 (Ex. M, p. 74; Tr. 1852, 4340-41, 4343.)

Interestingly, the added scientific clarity of the special masters with regard to bogus urine metals testing is also present to some degree in all three test cases:

Here’s one example from the Mead Decision

Moreover, a subsequent study, as reported in the 2007 Soden article filed as RMRL 458,150 could not confirm the 2003 Bradstreet study results. See Mead Tr. at 1844. The investigators found that “DMSA provoked excretion testing did not produce evidence of an excess chelatable body burden among the autistic [study] participants.” RMRL 458 at 480. The investigators concluded that “[i]n the absence of a novel mechanism of heavy metal toxicity or an alternate therapeutic action of chelators, the data presented provide[d] no justification for chelation therapy for the [study] participants.”

Many will remember the conclusion of Soden et al.

“In the absence a proven novel mode of heavy metal toxicity, the proportion of autistic participants in this study whose DMSA provoked excretion results demonstrate an excess chelatable body burden of As, Cd, Pb, or Hg is zero.”

But perhaps the most interesting of all, is the common thread that the reliance upon the bogus mercury testing seems pretty much acknowledged for what it is by both the special masters and the petitioners’ expert:

From the Dwyer Decision

Doctor Mumper’s willingness to rely on Colin’s mercury test results as evidence of high levels of mercury in his body was particularly troubling. She admitted that his results were not typical of those she saw in other autistic children. She admitted that she knew of no research into normal mercury excretion levels after chelation against which Colin’s one positive mercury test could be measured.741 It appeared that regardless of the results for mercury levels, Dr. Mumper was willing to opine that they reflected mercury’s role in ASD.

From the King Decision

In short, a careful analysis of the record demonstrates that there is no valid basis for Dr. Mumper’s view that the results of mercury excretion testing on Jordan King offer support for a conclusion that thimerosal-containing vaccines played a role in causing Jordan’s autism. To the contrary, the evidence supports a conclusion that Dr. Mumper’s reliance on such mercury tests has no basis in science or logic. Indeed, upon cross-examination even Dr. Mumper acknowledged that there is no particular profile or pattern of post-provocation test results that points to a finding that a child has mercury-induced autism. (Tr. 1555-60, 1568-69.) When pressed, Dr. Mumper could not even suggest an example of any type of result on a post-provocation mercury urine test that would not, in her analysis, support a claim of mercury-induced autism. (Tr. 1558-60.) Dr. Mumper’s analysis in this regard was illogical, and completely unpersuasive.119

Yep, regardless of the results of a scientifically meaningless test, it’s the mercury. Right.

Remember, these were the three Thimerosal “test cases”, presumably chosen by the Petitioner’s Steering Committee (PSC) because they offered the best opportunity to introduce good, and representative scientific evidence for the hypothesized role of thimerosal in the etiology of autism. It looks like they failed miserably, and this doesn’t seem surprising when it’s clear the cases leaned on at least one form of laboratory testing that’s clearly scientifically meaningless.

It won’t be surprising when many of the die-hard anti-vaccine and “alternative” autism medicine brigade ignore the fact that bogus urine toxic metals testing just had a bright light shined on it by the vaccine court. They’ll be likely to claim some form of conspiracy or politics about the cases, despite the fact that the spotlight revealed an apparent decision-making tool of many a “DAN! doctor” to not only be worthless in medicine, but also worthless in court.

On a related note, there has been recent news that a couple of “DAN! doctors” are facing a lawsuit in which bogus urine toxic metals testing is called out directly. Aside from numerous other problems they face in the complaint, it should be interesting to see how the defendants (Dr. Dan Rossignol, Dr. Anjum Usman, and Doctors Data, Inc.) explain the potential role of comparing chelator-provoked urine metals levels to a non-provoked reference range. If the three test cases in the OAP are an indication of the state of actual scientific support for such testing, the defendants would seem to have plenty to worry about.

Additional reading:

Mead v. Secretary of Health and Human Services Case No. 03-215V
King v. Secretary of Health and Human Services Case No. 03-584V
Dwyer v. Secretary of Health and Human Services Case No. 03-1202V
Thimerosal-Autism Test Cases Dismissed
Doctors sued over ‘dangerous’ autism treatment
Suing DAN! practitioners for malpractice: It’s about time
How the “Urine Toxic Metals” Test Is Used to Defraud Patients
24-hour provoked urine excretion test for heavy metals in children with autism and typically developing controls, a pilot study

66 Responses to “Bogus Urine Metals Testing Fails In Vaccine Court”

  1. KWombles March 13, 2010 at 23:47 #

    Do’C,

    Let me get this straight, the urine testing was bogus? Hahaha. Sorry. Couldn’t help it.

    You’d think that the AoAers would get that, get that the provoked urine tests are not accurate or reliable indicators. You’d think, but we know better by now. If it’s mercury, it can be fixed, you know. At least,they have the hope that it can be. Reality is besides the point.

  2. Science Mom March 14, 2010 at 00:06 #

    Ironically, these fools are possibly, if not probably adding to their children’s deficits by chelating them: http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/2006/9263/abstract.html

    But they will just keep rallying around their DAN! doctors and snake-oil.

  3. Do'C March 14, 2010 at 01:00 #

    This one is somewhat interesting too.
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/1/19

  4. isles March 14, 2010 at 01:31 #

    Just think how many kids have had this stuff forced on them. And how many quacks have made a living telling parents it would help.

    One thing that really bugs me is the thought that when kids who are getting chelated improve, their parents’ first thought probably isn’t “Wow, he’s really working hard and making strides,” but rather “Aren’t we smart for rejecting our mainstream pediatrician’s advice and giving our child a chelating agent!”

  5. Mike Stanton March 14, 2010 at 01:40 #

    isles
    you nailed it.

  6. livsparents March 14, 2010 at 04:36 #

    Only thing that P’s me O is that I used the provoked urine argument not 24 hours before this came out. Now I’m going to be accused of riding coattails on it; when I presented it independent of the rejection. Ah well, great mind and all that…

  7. Ian MacGregor March 14, 2010 at 04:37 #

    Niles, you are bugged by a what you imagine to be true? Do you know any parents who have chelated their kids? The problem is parents seeking the best possible outcomes for their children combined with a white knight doctor who believes he is doing good. They have empirical evidence , post hoc ergo propter hoc, that chelation was key to to their children’s advancement.

    They are thankful they found a doctor who has specialized in treating autism based on “science” which is yet to be accepted by the general medical community which like a large ship at sea takes a long time to change course after the rudder is put over.

    It does not matter how many studies show the treatments run gun the gauntlet from ineffective to life-threatening, they have seen their child improve, and erroneously attribute that gain to the treatment their children received.

    Parents such as this are close friends of mine. I don’t impugn their motives at all nor have I detected any feeling of superiority from them. Nor do I feel in anyway superior to them. I think they are mistaken and they are equally convinced that the reverse is true.

  8. sheldon101 March 14, 2010 at 04:42 #

    Aha! You missed this bit!
    Chelation can’t remove inorganic mercury from the brain!
    From the Hastings-King decision
    “Dr. Brent, however, testified persuasively that this argument of Dr. Aposhian [the toxicology expert for the plaintiff] again is without merit… Dr. Brent stressed that there has never been a published study showing that chelation therapy, in fact, has any benefit for autistic individuals. Dr. Rust provided similar testimony. Dr. Brent noted further that it is well established–including support by a study in which Dr. Aposhian himself was an author –that chelation, in particular chelation using DMSA, does not remove mercury from the brain; thus, since petitioners’ theory is that it is mercury in the brain that causes autism, the theory that chelation could relieve autistic symptoms by removing mercury is simply not logical.” 61-62 of the King Decision by Special Master Hastings. http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Hastings.King%20Decision.pdf

    From my blog entry Thoughts on Thimerosal Decision
    http://vaccineswork.blogspot.com/2010/03/thoughts-on-thimerosal-decison.html

  9. Do'C March 14, 2010 at 05:16 #

    “that chelation, in particular chelation using DMSA, does not remove mercury from the brain; thus, since petitioners’ theory is that it is mercury in the brain that causes autism, the theory that chelation could relieve autistic symptoms by removing mercury is simply not logical”

    That’s an interesting point from the decision Sheldon. To carry that even further, even if DMSA could cross the blood brain barrier and remove mercury from the brain, there isn’t any good scientific evidence that the removal of said mercury would equate with reversal of any damage. And then of course, there’s the possibility of redistribution of mercury into the brain by the adminstration of DMSA.

  10. Sullivan March 14, 2010 at 05:18 #

    Dr. Mumper could not even suggest an example of any type of result on a post-provocation mercury urine test that would not, in her analysis, support a claim of mercury-induced autism. (Tr. 1558-60.) Dr. Mumper’s analysis in this regard was illogical, and completely unpersuasive

    Dr. Mumper is medical director of the “Autism Research Institute” (DAN).

    Apparently, using her criteria for mercury poisoning, the main indicator is whether the patient has been given a challenge chelator drug.

  11. isles March 14, 2010 at 05:19 #

    Hi, Ian, thanks for your comment. I get my impression of the self-satisfied chelating parent chiefly from places like ageofautism.com and the Evidence of Harm yahoo group. They seem to have a martyr attitude and to be competitive in how many alt-med treatments they can pile on. I don’t doubt that you know parents who aren’t like this; but I believe that in general, once one has “crossed the Woobicon,” as Orac would say, one is strongly motivated to see favorable outcomes as a vindication of one’s decision to forsake mainstream medicine, and to let this cloud the fact that these outcomes were the child’s achievement, not the parent’s.

  12. David N. Brown March 14, 2010 at 08:29 #

    livesparents,
    “I used the provoked urine argument not 24 hours before this came out”
    No need to worry: Even some chelation therapists have been complaining for years that “challenge testing” is worthless. This ruling would appear to make that conclusion a legal precedent. I say, why not organize something like the old asbestos racket, and file so many class action suits that dozens of companies go bankrupt?

  13. David N. Brown March 14, 2010 at 08:37 #

    DoC,
    “there isn’t any good scientific evidence that the removal of said mercury would equate with reversal of any damage.”
    I believed at one time that damage from mercury would be irreversible, but have backed away from this criticism: Medically orthodox research has documented that giving chelators to those with genuine mercury poisoning will reverse the symptoms. What I suspect this means is that the effect of mercury on the brain is more subtle and complex than gross “brain damage”. Unfortunately, irresponsible claims for chelation are likely to hinder research on this subject being done.

  14. Laurentius Rex March 14, 2010 at 15:25 #

    I have for some time held a hypothesis that if one were to carry out properly controlled research into the effects of bio-med intervention one would find that contrary to the claims of parents, one would find that the application of these sometimes multiple bio med treatments, that the bio med had impaired the subjects ability to “recover” from autism.

    Munhausens syndrome by proxy (notwithstanding the abuse to which this diagnosis has been put to avoid social responsibility for care amongst local authorities in the UK) is an observable condition nonetheless, where parents will induce illness in there children.

    Now the motivation of bio med parents could not be more opposite to Munchausens syndrome, in that they do appear to care about there children however the result of the rather different psychosocial delusion they in turn follow results in the same abuse.

    The problem is that this is a minor industry sustained jointly by the practitioners of woo, and shyster lawyers. I suspect that the lawyers seeing the diminishing returns of pursuing these cases will at least move on, hopefully they will become instead compensation lawyers for parents suing the charlatans who are really damaging there children and that as a corollory of that medical malpractice insurance will become more difficult for the Dr’s to gain if they are practising woo because of the increased premiums such a risky practice would attract.

    Following on that perhaps even legislation might ensue to thouroully fill in the loopholes that have allowed these rogues to operate with pseudo review boards and little independent oversight whatever.

  15. Ian MacGregor March 14, 2010 at 17:13 #

    Niles, there is arrogance on both sides. The catholic philosopher, G. K. Chesterton, once remarked to the effect that one wins arguments by loving your side, not by hating the other. I am in agreement with nearly everything ORAC says except for matters of faith. However, in my opinion he is often arrogant. Prometheus, though not as prolific as ORAC, does a great job of presenting evidence without the overtones found in many ORAC posts. You can be absolutely factually correct and arrogant, and you can be dead wrong and arrogant as well.

    I’m sure alt-med parents seek to have their decision to leave mainstream medicine validated, but that is not something restricted to them. People naturally put the personal experience of seeing improvement in their children over studies which show the agent could possibly affect such a change. Not all is saintly with the alt-med parents. I do know some who are absolutely convinced of that mainstream medicine is under the control of Big Pharma which wants their children to be on a lifetime prescription of antipsychotics, whereas they have found doctors willing to push the boundaries of “science” to cure their children. This view keeps people on the alt-med side even when progress is nowhere near what they expected when they began the treatments. I feel obligated to state that I am 110% in favor of finding a cure.

  16. Prometheus March 14, 2010 at 19:17 #

    David N. Brown notes:

    “Medically orthodox research has documented that giving chelators to those with genuine mercury poisoning will reverse the symptoms.”

    True. But.

    The benefit of chelation for mercury poisoning appears to be limited to acute mercury poisoning, probably by removing mercury from the blood and reversing the concentration gradient driving mercury into the brain. There is no evidence that chelating will have any benefit once the blood levels have dropped to within the “normal range”.

    There are animal studies (mentioned above) showing that chelation with hydrophilic chelators (e.g. DMSA, DMPS) will not remove significant amounts of mercury from the brain. There are also human studies showing that chelating for lead will not reverse the effects of chronic toxicity (although it does help in acute toxicity and by ending on-going brain injury due to chronically elevated lead levels).

    One of the many reasons the “mercury-causes-autism” hypothesis doesn’t work is that mercury isn’t that precise in its attack on the brain. It generally triggers apoptosis (programmed cell death) in neurons, a process which, once initiated, is generally irreversible. Once the symptoms of neural damage start to show, most of the damage is done. At best, chelation can protect a small percentage of injured cells that haven’t yet crossed the apoptosis threshold.

    In less technical terms, chelating years after a putative mercury toxicity (the basic rationale behind the chelation of autistic children) is rather like locking the barn door after the horse has run off. In fact, it’s like locking the barn door after the horse has run off, fallen into a well and died.

    Prometheus

  17. Mary Durkan March 14, 2010 at 23:30 #

    wow! as a mom who did all the “crazy” stuff to recover my son from mercury poisoning I am in awe of the hate here. My son was my third born in 1994 unfortunately I was unaware of the dramatic increase in vaccines from the time my 2nd child was born in 1990.
    I am RN who never questioned vaccines until the day i added up all the thimerasol that had been injected into my babies body. its a known neurotoxin with NO level of safety and they are INJECTING it in to them. Why don’t you look up on the CDC all the crap they INJECT into a babies body and try to justify that. You can’t eff with mother nature that much.
    You also can’t justify giving a just born baby a shot for a sexually transmitted disease,
    you just can’t sorry. especially when for 70% of the kids including mine will not have antibodies when they do become sexually active.
    all you haters I hope you wake up some day and realize what is really happening to these kids.

    • Sullivan March 15, 2010 at 04:04 #

      Mary Durkan,

      as an RN, I am sure you have access to the information that HepB can be spread through casual contact, not just through sex and needles. You probably are also aware that the HepB program in the 1980’s targeting “high risk” groups failed, but the program immunizing infants has brought down the HepB incidence?

      You are no doubt aware that HepB is much more serious in children, as they are more likely to develop a chronic infection.

      Can you tell me, was that “hateful”? I presented information contrary to your view. Would you mind telling me if you disagree with the above post? Do you think that challenge testing is valid? If so, would you be so kind as to explain why? Peraps you could give the information as to how this could be used, since the medical director of DAN does’t seem to know.

  18. David N. Brown March 15, 2010 at 04:54 #

    “I was unaware of the dramatic increase in vaccines from the time my 2nd child was born in 1990.”
    WHAT dramatic increase? With regards to vaccines with thimerosal, ca. 1990 was when they phased out DTP in favor of mostly thimerosal-free DTaP. That nullifies any impact of the addition of Hep B.
    And why emphasize “inject”? Not all vaccines are injected, and on at least one occasion (polio) it was decided an injected vaccine was safer than the oral alternative.

  19. Ian MacGregor March 15, 2010 at 13:20 #

    Mary Durkan, a study of children and young adults with remitted autism was mentioned on this site a few days ago,

    http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00938054?term=autism&rank=12

    Perhaps your son could participate.

    I thought a couple of comments were over-the-top in their negative characterization of parents who chelate their children, but i cannot agree they represent awesome hate.

    We all filter input based on our life experiences. Is it possible that you are inferring hatred based on this where none was stated or implied?

  20. Prometheus March 15, 2010 at 18:26 #

    Mary Durkan comments:

    You also can’t justify giving a just born baby a shot for a sexually transmitted disease, you just can’t sorry.

    At the risk of being branded a “hater”, I’d like to point out to Ms. Durkan – who claims to be a registered nurse – that sexually transmitted diseases are frequently passed from mother to child at birth. Gonorrhea, syphilis, herpes simplex 2, HIV, and – yes – hepatitis B are all examples of sexually-transmitted diseases that are passed to newborns.

    There are two reasons to vaccinate the infant rather than depend on testing the mother for hepatitis B.

    [1] The laboratory test for hepatitis B detects the surface antigen. Those levels are below the limits of detection early on in the infection, when the patient is the most infectious.

    [2] Of adults who are infected with hepatitis B, only about 5% will develop chronic hepatitis B infection (with the subsequent high risk of liver failure due to cirrhosis or liver cancer). Children who are infected have a 30% chance of developing chronic hepatitis B. Infants who are infected at birth have a 95% probability of developing a chronic hepatitis B infection.

    Given the risk of missing an early hepatitis B infection in the mother and the catastrophic consequences for the infant, vaccinating all children at birth seems justified.

    If and when the risk of hepatitis B declines sufficiently, this policy should (and will) be re-visited.

    For Ms. Durkan, I’d suggest a CME course on hepatitis B.

    Prometheus

  21. Richard Diaz March 15, 2010 at 21:01 #

    I want to know where in world research or literature, it says that mercury, lead, arsenic or cadmium is essential to the body. If doctors want to hide cause and cure from the patients, it makes perfect sense that these metals belong in the body. If patients are seeking both cause and cure then if follows that if you have been diagnosed with any disease or condition that has not identified a cause and has no prescribed cure, the probability of being influenced by one or more of the heavy metals is severe and, in fact, probable.

  22. Mary Durkan March 15, 2010 at 22:12 #

    I have said to others that if I hadn’t had a son born in 1994 that was vaccine injured I would probably agree with everything being said here and think jenny mccarthy was a nut. But when you live it and witness it personally it changes your beliefs.
    I am aware of the reasoning given for vaccinating babies for hepatitis B, but I personally feel the risk far out ways the benefit. In my case I had contracted hepatitis B in NYC in 1983 my first year of nursing. back then the “experts” said we shouldn’t wear gloves when we change a colostomy (play in peoples poop) so we don’t offend the patient. Well thanks “experts” I am lucky i didn’t get AIDS it was 1983! of course the “experts” quickly changed that policy when AIDS was discovered.
    So when my son was born if I had been properly notified they would be giving my baby a hepatitis B shot I would kindly refused to a later date as he was already protected by my maternal antibodies. I consider that treatment without diagnosis. The mercury was just a bonus.
    Also I am like most people who contract hepatitis B and have a healthy immune system. I was unaware i even had the exposure and converted to hep B+ diagnosed when they screened me before giving me my 1st hepatitis B shot in 1984.
    There was never an uproar when I was growing up or with my older children about the escalating hepatitis in our children. Autism is EVERYWHERE and has destroyed a generation of children mostly boys.
    The facts are my older children did not have the HIB shot or the hepatitis B both in my son’s case contained mercury. Again YOU CAN NOT JUSTIFY INJECTING A BABY WITH MERCURY SORRY!
    Also aluminum ain’t so great either. In the 1980’s it took 10 shots to get your baby into school by 5 now it takes 36. These kids are not healthier for all these shots. I say we go back to the 1980’s schedule.
    I also don’t think vaccines are the only reason for the increase in the problems we are seeing in the children today. I think its a combination of eating junk food especially MSG , toxins in the air and environment. Also antibioitcs damage the GI system where most of our immune system resides. I believe if we gave children PRObiotics after antibioitcs we could help a lot of kids.
    I also don’t believe you can vaccinate for everything mother nature is costantly changing the playing field. We need to focus on building our childrens immune system through healthy food, rest and lowering their stress.
    You can throw all the carefully crafted studies you want at parents like me but we know what we have seen and how diet, supplements, OT, speech and for some parents chelation brought our kids back. My son will tell me how he felt like he was asleep until he was about 8 and then the world came in to focus. I also was told he was the only child they had ever had in my county (what they told me don’t have proof) who had been in special need kindergarten and self contained language program for 3 years to be mainstreamed with no supports. As my son said he woke up and was able to communicate and be back in the world with us. He is thankful for all the “Crazy stuff” I did and has told me so many times.
    I am just always amazed how upset others are that we are trying to make our kids healthy by removing the toxins from their bodies and supplement what they don’t have, but can justify peds injecting our infants with known neurotoxins. The lack of common sense just baffles me.

    • Sullivan March 15, 2010 at 23:07 #

      “I am just always amazed how upset others are….”

      Odd, I didn’t come to your website and call you a “hater” and then refuse to back that up. How am I upset, exactly?

      I do get frustrated when people justify the use of, yes, bogus lab tests to justify “detox” treatments that are not called for clinically. Now, if you would like to address the question–is a challenge chelation test valid to show mercury poisoning? If so, please cite a source, be it paper or textbook, that shows that to be the case? I would greatly appreciate that information since experts in toxicology, including the American College of Medical Toxicology has stated, very clearly, that post-challenge testing is not valid.
      http://www.acmt.net/cgi/page.cgi?aid=2999&_id=52&zine=show

  23. Do'C March 16, 2010 at 03:29 #

    “In the 1980’s it took 10 shots to get your baby into school by 5 now it takes 36.”

    Right out of the Generation Rescue play book. It’s not true of course – not even in New Jersey (where flu shots are required). My guess is that whoever wrote the Generation Rescue play book either didn’t know that Rotavirus vaccine is not a “shot”, or was intentionally deceiving.

    And that doesn’t even touch the great variation among state requirments (most of which do not include flu or rotavirus, among others, at all).

  24. Do'C March 16, 2010 at 04:00 #

    Richard, that’s a whopper of a non-sequitur.

    Element A is non-essential
    Condition B has unknown cause/cure
    Therefore A causes B?

  25. David N. Brown March 16, 2010 at 05:24 #

    “The facts are my older children did not have the HIB shot or the hepatitis B both in my son’s case contained mercury.”
    It your older children received the old whole-cell DTP vaccine, they received thimerosal. Also, while I won’t argue if you have records to indicate otherwise, if you followed the schedule current as of 1986, they would have received the Hib vaccine. In summary, that’s two thimerosal-containing vaccines in the late 80s, two in the early 90s, net increase nill.
    My take on thimerosal is that it was an archaic and allergenic substance that could justifiably have been removed regardless of issues of ethylmercury. I believe its continued use represents an example of what I call “the infantry weapons problem” (after the M16 among other egregious examples): Mediocre and outdated designs stay in use because government bulk buyers prefer buying a “proven” product, however flawed, over investment in innovation.

  26. Joseph March 16, 2010 at 20:41 #

    If patients are seeking both cause and cure then if follows that if you have been diagnosed with any disease or condition that has not identified a cause and has no prescribed cure, the probability of being influenced by one or more of the heavy metals is severe and, in fact, probable.

    @Richard Diaz: That makes no sense whatsoever. You might as well say that if you have a condition with no known cause and cure, the probability of extra-terrestrial influence is severe and, in fact, probable. That’s right, the probability is probable.

  27. cs March 17, 2010 at 01:13 #

    How would going back to the 1980 vaccine schedule change anything? That schedule would include the MMR. Everyone knows the measles component of the MMR causes autistic enterocolitis which causes permeability of the intestine allowing morphine like peptides to form and cross the blood-brain barrier leading a child to autistic behaviors that can be alleviated by a gluten-free/casein-free diet. Perhaps going back to the 1970s would be even better.

  28. Richard Diaz March 17, 2010 at 01:39 #

    It makes plenty of sense when you understand that there are only 3 ways health can be compromised. 1- micro-organism 2- trauma and 3- poisoning. Please don’t consider genetics a vector to illness because it is only a propensity and nothing more. In order for DNA to be the cause of illness the double helix chain must be strained so that the weak link is identified.
    If you can’t see the problem under a microscope and a trauma is not apparent then the probability of being poisoned should not be ignored. If you choose to avoid the probability, you are not interested in a cause or a cure but interested in the economics of medicine.

  29. Chris March 17, 2010 at 02:14 #

    cs, the MMR was used in the 1970s in the USA and other countries. Please show us the data that the issues you claim are caused by the MMR started to happen in the USA in 1971. Or admit you posted a Poe.

    Mr. Diaz, I suggest you take a refresher course in biology. Though you could work on understanding by starting here and here.

  30. Prometheus March 17, 2010 at 02:54 #

    Richard Diaz claims:

    “Please don’t consider genetics a vector to illness because it is only a propensity and nothing more.”

    Sickle cell disease
    Trisomy 21
    Tay-Sachs disease
    Wilson’s disease

    I could go on.

    [by the way, all of those diseases are caused by a genetic mutation – they are not a “propensity”]

    Richard continues:

    “In order for DNA to be the cause of illness the double helix chain must be strained so that the weak link is identified.”

    Utter non sequitur. It is the biology equivalent of “the square root of blue is orange”. DNA mutations do not cause a permanent or long-lasting “strain” in the double helix.

    Richard wraps up with:

    “If you can’t see the problem under a microscope and a trauma is not apparent then the probability of being poisoned should not be ignored.”

    Mind-blowing.

    Prometheus

  31. cs March 17, 2010 at 04:08 #

    Chris. Not a Poe. Just sarcasm.

  32. Chris March 17, 2010 at 04:46 #

    Thanks. You need a sarcasm tag.

  33. Laurentius Rex March 17, 2010 at 10:09 #

    Richard, from your post you do not appear to know a lot about how the cosmos works do you?

    There is another possibility to be considered, one inherent in the notion of a living organism and is finite existence and that is the inevitable breakdown of processes caused by interactions between varying systems of great complexity. That is governed by genetics, furthermore there is the whole quantum uncertainty of events in that certain processes are always going to be a throw of the dice as to what happens when a encounters b. The problem is way beyond the microscope and what can be seen even because physical events are dependent upon the fundemental nuclear forces, chemistry and biochemistry being an extrapolation from that.

    The question is in any complex system the degree to which something is truly random or simple incomputable from what is currently know of the variables involved.

  34. Laurentius Rex March 17, 2010 at 10:20 #

    Prometheus, from your post you do not appear to know a lot about how language works do you?

    The square root of blue IS Orange if you set up your terms to have such interpretation, have you never heard of Daniel Tammet 🙂

    Essentially to the believer they will construct arguments of internal consistency based solely on a circular argument, thus a plus b will always be equivalent of C no matter what, because a and b will be continually jiggered and refined to make sure that no other possibility will ever exist than to define the constant C providing of course that neither a nor b will ever approach x, which is a variable outside of which the self defining system will allow to exist for reasons of blind, blinkered unreason.

  35. Mary Durkan March 17, 2010 at 13:19 #

    IMHO:
    Cause of autism:
    nutritional deficient moms living on standard american diet “SAD”
    her gut ecology has been destroyed by antibiotics, BCP and chlorine in water etc.
    Genetically vulnerable baby who does not do a good job excreting heavy metals and has an immune system that over reacts to antigens causing the neuroinflammation my son has an verified by spect scan.
    Arrogance of the medical community that doesn’t take in the account the poor detox and weak immune system of the newborn.
    INJECTS most of the vaccines with their many adjuncts of aluminum, formaldehyde, mercury (FLU SHOT still given) thus bypassing the mucosal membranes mother nature has set up for the body to properly respond to an antigen.
    Feed the baby formula that contains MSG which i feel is a big part of why our boys are going down the tubes which helps feed even more this neuroinflammation.
    Babies gut ecology is out of balance due to being csection or moms sucked so they don’t have the right balance to properly digest their foods thus they get colic.
    The doc now puts them on zantac (new since my babies born) which depletes them of folic acid and B12 hmmm don’t you need that for brain development and isn’t that one of the SNP’s these kids are known to have.. problems with methylation
    Then before and after shots be sure to give your child tylenol which depletes you of glutathione.
    Without gluatathione the babies most powerful antioxidant system is lowered and hampers their ability to detoxify metals.
    of course the baby now has been on antibiotics for the constant ear infections they now have do to milk allergy that your peds will never recognize, Again the gut ecology is effed where most of your immune system resides. leaky gut is in full bloom and the systemic system is in hyper overdrive and setting up for neuroinflammation.
    I believe the MMR being given at 12-15 months when they baby is being introduced to wheat, more milk and their gut is a mess from antibiotics is why they are able to be pushed into autism.
    PREVENT autism by making sure moms are eating real food, have adequate probiotics in their gut, delay vaccines until child is older, stop giving tylenol and respect the gut ecology. Dr mcbride “GAPS diet” Stay away from pediatricians the wellness visit is an oxymoron. Teach doctors about how the human body actually works, importance of nutrition and a little bit of humility and respect for mother nature.
    The autsim parents are pissed because unlike when your child gets cancer you get no support from the medical community, your neighbors and research. Geez you can’t even usually get them diagnosed. You give a cancer kid a potent chemo drug nobody pats an eye. You try to find someone who will help you work with your kid and everybody starts throwing stones.
    My older son works in research on drug addiction. They know even though many of the genetic markers you see in addiction are present in autism methylation, glutathione, dopamine receptors etc they know not to utter the word autism. They know their funding would be shut down cold, they saw what they did to boyd haley and dr wakefield.
    So keep throwing what you got at us autism parents we are use to eat but bottom line you can’t fuck with mother nature and you can’t play god and thats what peds do everyday. The funny thing is in all their fancy education they don’t even know how to feed the animals in their care. can you imagine a farmer not knowing how to feed his livestock? They think we humans are above food, nutrients all we need is antibiotics, zantac, ritalin, vaccines etc.
    I knew I was on my own when i had a conversation with my sons ped when he was 5 and “doing amazing” she asked what I was doing? I told her one thing I was doing was giving him omega 3 like DHA to help feed his brain since it is no longer in the food supply.. she said “what is DHA?”
    I said it is the most important essential fatty acid TO BUILD YOUR BABIES BRAIN. Thats when i knew i was alone and the traditional medical community couldn’t help me. so keep throwing your fancy words and studies at us we know we are alone in this fight but it would be helpful if you would not be in our way to save our kids and maybe a kind word (and a casserole GFCF) would be nice we don’t get those. WE ARE ANGRY because our children have become disposable and the medical community has abandoned us.
    IMHO

  36. Joseph March 17, 2010 at 19:26 #

    It makes plenty of sense when you understand that there are only 3 ways health can be compromised. 1- micro-organism 2- trauma and 3- poisoning.

    That’s just not true. Besides genetics, there’s entropy, random chance and chaos, otherwise known as “bad luck.” Consider that no one is immortal, so even in the absence of any micro-organism, trauma and poisoning, eventually you will develop health problems and die.

  37. Mary Durkan March 17, 2010 at 19:47 #

    I think we also under estimate stress and emotional trauma in developing disease.
    That is probably another “not scientific” but common sense reason not to vaccinate a baby right after or soon after delivery. Talk about a stressful situation! Their secretory IgA in there gut would probably be low. Not a great time to introduce an antigen (hepatits B) laced with
    ( see CDC site)

    Click to access excipient-table-1.pdf


    so around and around we go trying to poke hills in labs trying to find mercury and aluminum injected into kids. How about we just not inject it in them! Then we can put all these DAN doctors and labs out of biz! just a thought

  38. Joseph March 17, 2010 at 20:00 #

    How about we just not inject it in them! Then we can put all these DAN doctors and labs out of biz!

    Removal of 98% of thimerosal from pediatric vaccines achieved nothing of the kind.

  39. Mary Durkan March 17, 2010 at 20:32 #

    How do you get 98% reduction when they still INJECT it in to them at six months… also remember mama is probably being a good patient and getting the flu shot while pregnant. so getting a dose there. you can’t just look at 1 shot you have to look at the whole antigen load and adjunct load this kids are gettin at a very young and fragile age. Oh an be sure to give them tylenol we want to make sure they can’t excrete the aluminum and formaldehyde and thimerasol they are getting. My ped didn’t even know what gluatathione was and that tylenol decreased it. i had to tell remind her remember tylenol overdoses worst drug overdose EVER when we worked in hospital .. we gave them mucomyst right? That is n-acetylcysteine (GLUTATHIONE) connect the dots people.. think outside the box!
    its not just mercury its the whole fricking thing… a perfect storm to induce neuroinflammation!

    Ingredients in flu shot:

    FLUARIXTM: (GlaxoSmithKline) Chicken embryos, virus*, sucrose, sodium deoxycholate, formaldehyde, sodium phosphate, sodium chloride, octoxynol-10, Alpha-tocopheryl hydrogen succinate, and polysorbate 80, trace thimerosal (<1.25 mcg mercury per dose). Each dose may contain residual amounts of hydrocortisone, gentamicin sulfate, ovalbumin, formaldehyde and sodium deoxycholate.

    Fluzone®: (Aventis-Pasteur) Chicken embryos, virus*, formaldehyde, sucrose, octoxinol-9, sodium phosphate, sodium chloride, Gelatin, thimerosal in the 5mL vials (25 ug mercury/dose), no thimerosal in prefilled syringes.

    * See manufacturers Package inserts for details. The links above are to the package inserts.

    FLU Vaccine Ingredients depend upon the manufacturer
    FluVirin, FluShield, FluZone, FluMist, Etc, Etc.

    All are made using egg or chicken protein
    Influenza viruses (most! are inactivated)
    Neomycin, polymyxin, gentamycin – antibiotics
    Thimerosal [mercury] – a harmful preservative
    Betapropiolactone – a disinfectant
    Nonoxynol – used to kill or stop growth of STDs
    Octoxinol 9 – a vaginal spermicide
    Formaldehyde – embalming fluid used to kill viruses
    Ingredient and associated risk list for the Fluzone vaccine:

    Chick Embryo – this can be problematic for those allergic to eggs or egg products

    Formaldehyde – (Embalming Fluid) Formaldehyde has been classified as a human carcinogen (cancer-causing substance) by the International Agency for Research on Cancer and as a probable human carcinogen by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency). Research studies of workers exposed to formaldehyde have suggested an association between formaldehyde exposure and cancers of the nasal sinuses, nasopharynx, and brain, and possibly leukemia

    Octoxinol-9 – This is a spermacide (kills sperm) Chills; confusion; dizziness; fever; lightheadedness; muscle aches; sunburn-like skin rash that is followed by peeling of the skin

    Triton X-100 – Harmful if swallowed. Causes severe eye irritation. May be harmful if inhaled or in contact with skin. Toxicology not fully investigated. The product may contain traces of ethylene oxide or dioxane, which are probable human carcinogens.

    Gelatin- Made from the boiled bones, skins and tendons of animals.

    Thimerisol (mercury derivative) – Several cases of acute mercury poisoning from thimerosal-containing products were found in the medical literature with total doses of thimerosal ranging from approximately 3 mg/kg (Your vaccine contains 25 ug per 5mL dose) to several hundred mg/kg These studies reported local necrosis, acute hemolysis, disseminated intravascular coagulation, acute renal tubular necrosis, and central nervous system injury including obtundation, coma, and death

    Sodium Phosphate – Phosphates are slowly and incompletely absorbed when ingested, and seldom result in systemic effects. Such effects, however, have occurred Symptoms may include vomiting, lethargy, diarrhea, blood chemistry effects, heart disturbances and central nervous system effects. The toxicity of phosphates is because of their ability to sequester calcium. Irritant due to its acidic nature. May cause inflammation and pain on prolonged contact, especially with moist skin. May sequester calcium and cause calcium phosphate deposits in the kidneys.

    Sodium Chloride(Salt) – Very large doses can cause vomiting, diarrhea, and prostration. Dehydration and congestion occur in most internal organs. Hypertonic salt solutions can produce violent inflammatory reactions in the gastrointestinal tract. May irritate damaged skin; absorption can occur with effects similar to those via ingestion.

    • Sullivan March 17, 2010 at 20:49 #

      Sodium Chloride(Salt) – Very large doses can cause vomiting, diarrhea, and prostration. Dehydration and congestion occur in most internal organs. Hypertonic salt solutions can produce violent inflammatory reactions in the gastrointestinal tract. May irritate damaged skin; absorption can occur with effects similar to those via ingestion.

      Oh dear. Are we really using Sodium Chloride to scare people away from vaccines? Common table salt?

  40. ioana March 17, 2010 at 21:15 #

    Someone above me said “Just think how many kids have had this stuff forced on them. And how many quacks have made a living telling parents it would help.” Unfortunatelly, on of my dearest friends has a child that suffers from autism. Believe me, I know exactly what those words mean and how empty and powerless one feels when one has tried everything in their power and has only made the matter wors for their own child.

  41. brian March 17, 2010 at 21:33 #

    Oh dear. Are we really using Sodium Chloride to scare people away from vaccines? Common table salt?

    Don’t forget water. Consumption of relatively large volumes of liquids can cause hyponatremia and death: you may recall that a babysitter killed a child by forcing her, as a punishment, to consume several liters of water, and that marathon runners die from overhydration.

    Recall, too, that EPA Risk Reference Doses are not based on toxicity, but on factors such as the “no observed adverse effect level”. Accordingly, a federal rule for the “acceptable daily intake” of breast milk consumption, if considered along the lines of the mercury limits, might go something like this: (a) consider that consumption of large amounts of liquids can be harmful or fatal; (b) find the consumption level at which no adverse effects are observed; and (c) incorporate an “uncertainty” (or “safety”) factor of about ten (so that one-tenth of the amount that can be consumed with no adverse effect is established as the upper limit). In addition, other (multiplicative) safety factors can be incorporated to account for vulnerable populations. Babies would thus be allowed to consume perhaps one-tenth or less of the amount of milk that they normally drink in a day.

    Fortunately, common sense can also play a role. If you have abundant evidence that millions of children have been exposed to mothers’ milk (or to thimerosal) at known dose levels without adverse effects, it doesn’t make much sense to worry about limits derived from such calculations. Fortunately, we have this information.

  42. Chris March 17, 2010 at 21:36 #

    “Gelatin- Made from the boiled bones, skins and tendons of animals.”

    Oh noes! Vaccines contain Jello!

    (By the way, this evening I will take the leftovers of a chicken I roasted a couple of days ago and put it in a pot of water. Then I will add herbs, spices, onion, celery and carrots and simmer it for a couple of hours. Then I will strain it and put it in the fridge. Tomorrow I will then skim off the layer of fat, and put it on the stove to cook it down. When it chills it will be a thick gelatinous glace de viande, which is wonderful for making sauces. Mary, you must not cook too much. It looks like you avoid things like custards, hollandaise sauce, omelets, French toast, quiche and many other wonderful foods made with chicken embryos!)

  43. Sullivan March 17, 2010 at 21:52 #

    Chris,

    one easy place for so-called “vaccine safety” groups to make improvements would be to remove potential allergens like eggs and gelatin. They ignore this avenue.

  44. Chris March 17, 2010 at 22:14 #

    I listen to the “This Week in Virology” podcasts. They have referenced development of processes to avoid the use of eggs. I tried to look at the website of one of the professors on that podcast, and found this:
    http://www.virology.ws/2009/02/06/524/

    There is also a recent post on keeping vaccines safe if there is no way to maintain a cold chain (even in its powdered form, the MMR vaccine needs to be kept cold):
    http://www.virology.ws/2010/03/04/cutting-the-cold-chain/

    Of course folks like Mary will scream “They are using sugar!”

  45. Joseph March 17, 2010 at 22:19 #

    How do you get 98% reduction when they still INJECT it in to them at six months

    Most of the time they don’t, though. From the CDC:

    Most importantly, since 1999, newly formulated thimerosal preservative-free childhood vaccines (Hepatitis B, Hib, and DTaP) have been licensed. With the newly formulated childhood vaccines, the maximum total exposure during the first six months of life will now be less than three micrograms of mercury.

    That’s 3 micrograms by 6 months. Now this from the FDA:

    In the past, prior to the initiative to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from childhood vaccines, the maximum cumulative exposure to mercury via routine childhood vaccinations during the first six months of life was 187.5 micrograms.

    If you have some alternative math, do show your work.

  46. Richard Diaz March 17, 2010 at 22:53 #

    I find the responses very standard, like a priest or rabbi defending the religion. Bad luck or not, any illness must fall under the influence of one or more of the three vectors.
    Instead of minimizing my simple thought, why not check for one or more of the heavy metals. Could it be that you would rather spend the time writing and arguing about an idea? Why not prove me wrong with a cheap and effective test.
    I once had the same kind of discussion with a doctor and he essentially told me the same. His words, “that’s crazy, everybody has heavy metals in the body.” My response was simple, “my point, exactly”.
    If you’re not willing to test (and prove me wrong), you must be willing to live with what exists, which is a mystery maintained by heavily educated men and women to protect a system that pays well.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.” -Upton Sinclair

  47. Chris March 17, 2010 at 23:11 #

    Mr. Diaz, how about you checking out a basic biology book and read about how DNA works.

  48. Sullivan March 17, 2010 at 23:11 #

    Richard Diaz,

    Actual medical toxicologists have tested autistic children whose “poisoned” status was “proved” using the bogus methods mentioned in this post.

    When tested using reliable methodology, those children were found to be free of the poisoning.

    Have you tested yourself or your child for heavy metal poisoning? If so, did you use a challenge test? If so, have you cross referenced by going to a licensed medical toxicologist?

    Since no one in my family has any symptoms of heavy metal poisoning, I will not take your challenge (pun intended).

  49. Mary Durkan March 17, 2010 at 23:36 #

    ok i obviously am not going to get you guys to agree with me here. but sullivan you do agree that they INJECTED 187.5 into MY baby! and maybe that didn’t do his body good.
    Also checked MY KIDS vaccine schedules. 2 oldest received total of 6 shots at 2,4 and 6 months.
    my 3rd child received 12 with the addition of HIB and hepatitis B I think that is a dramatic increase!
    Especially when the extra six had MERCURY!
    Oh sullivan and brian you forgot the formaldehyde and thimerasol. Like I said its not just one antigen and not one adjunct its the whole stinking thing.
    As grandmas say “The proof is in the pudding” are kids are sicker then they have ever been so much for well baby visits.
    I don’t think its all vaccines thats causing this, i think MSG is going to be a big player in this in the future as well as the toxins in food and water….
    good luck everyone but my grandchildren sure as hell won’t be vaccinated using the schedule from the 90’s we are going disco here back to the 70’s after 2 yrs old and spaced out!

  50. Dawn March 18, 2010 at 00:15 #

    @Mary Durkin: would you PLEASE stop giving RNs a bad name? You look like an idiot with your gish gallops. So everything is bad? MSG, vaccines, toxins in food and water…

    Go to a farm, grow all your own food, drill a well for your water, make sure your septic tank doesn’t infect your well (and hope your pure water doesn’t have high levels of lead, mercury, bacteria…). My parents have a well. It is tested regularly for heavy metals, bacteria, etc…actually, this is their 3rd well. Their first well was so high in heavy metals that it was recommended that we only use it for washing and not for drinking (yes, in Michigan there are such things as heavy metals in the ground…gee, wonder where you get iron ore from?).

    You are comparing micrograms of mercury in the flu shot to MILLIGRAMS that lead to toxicity? Do you even understand the phrase “the dose makes the poison”? If you don’t, go drink 5 liters of water in a few minutes then come back and tell us how you feel. Or weren’t you ever taught in nursing school about not given fluids too quickly because it can lead to hyponatremia and death?

    Please, Mary. I hope you are NOT a practicing nurse. You make me ashamed of the RN after my name.

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