Autism vs Symptoms of Autism Part II

25 May

If this is the case it is rather hard to see what we are arguing about. With all the semantic ingenuity in the world children on the autistic spectrum are surely autistic and so are children who have autistic behaviour.

So states John Stone on Age of Autism.

Its meant to point out to us the linguistic convolutions some people go to in order to seperate people who have autism and people who display autistic symptoms. We’re meant to roll our eyes on this stupidity.

But I can’t. Because its not stupid. Because there _is_ a difference between having enough of the symptoms to qualify for a diagnosis of autism and _not_ having enough of the symptoms of autism to qualify for a diagnosis of autism. In one scenario a person has autism as medically defined. In the other scenario, they don’t.

Far from John Stones ‘semantic ingenuity’, what we are in fact talking about is ‘semantic precision’. Lots of people display some of the symptoms of autism yet simply don’t have enough to get a diagnosis. This phenomenom has even got a name: Broader Autism Phenotype. In a paper from as long ago as 1997, the authors states:

Studies of families ascertained through a single autistic proband suggest that the genetic liability for autism may be expressed in nonautistic relatives in a phenotype that is milder but qualitatively similar to the defining features of autism.

Note the use of the word qualitatively there. In that, people with enough symptoms have autism share qualities with those who don’t.

Autism has a long and painful history of being sculpted into a set of beliefs that reflect the position of the believer rather than the objective truth of the matter. The thing is, we _have_ an objective (if medical) truth on the matter, its set down in the DSM or the ICD, pick your poison. John Stone is merely the latest in a long line of people who want autistic people to be ambiguous enough to reflect their beliefs. However, by its very definition, you cannot _be_ autistic (again medically speaking) if you don’t meet the criteria, or even _enough_ of the criteria.

I see nothing of semantic igenuity in this. Stone is, of course, attempting to whip up support for the latest terrible study – this one legal – that claims to have found 83 people compensated for autism via vaccine injury. When you apply John Stone et al’s loose, ambiguous definition of what autism medically is then they’re quite right. Thing is, I suspect I, John Stone and various others could all show _some_ symptoms of autism. Much trickier is to display _enough_ symptoms of autism to be diagnosed as autistic. Something I think about 1% of these 83 were. In other words, no different in amount than the rest of any other population.

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32 Responses to “Autism vs Symptoms of Autism Part II”

  1. Stuart Duncan May 25, 2011 at 16:51 #

    http://www.autism-resources.com/autismfaq-simi.html

    Some of the disorders listed fall under the spectrum umbrella, so can argue whether or not it’s “actually autism” or just a disorder in the spectrum… either way, the point is that there are many disorders that don’t fall under the spectrum umbrella but do share some “autism-like symptoms” yet are not autism.

  2. brian May 25, 2011 at 18:35 #

    (1) The great majority of the children identified in the study “that claims to have found 83 people compensated for autism via vaccine injury” suffered an alleged vaccine reaction following vaccination against pertussis.

    (2) Such “injuries” have been shown to actually be due to mutations that cause seizures and the development of “autistic traits” after a prolonged period of apparently normal development.

    (3) Strangely, the authors argued that, contrary to the evidence, the development of “autistic traits” is due to the vaccine, and Stone apparently argues that the well-studied genetic syndrome is actually autism.

    Weird.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17105460

  3. Liz Ditz May 25, 2011 at 19:25 #

    ToddW’s take on “semantic ingenuity”

    http://silencedbyageofautism.blogspot.com/2011/05/help-i-have-polio.html

    Now, there are some who might argue that there is a distinction, medically speaking, between polio and polio-like symptoms, but they are clearly held in the grip of Big PharmaTM. Don’t let them fool you. I know I have polio because I have polio-like symptoms. And since there is no meaningful distinction between the terms “polio” and “polio-like symptoms,” then the only possible answer is that the cause of my distress is nothing else but polio. I’m sure the folks at Age of Autism will back me up on this one.

  4. sharon May 26, 2011 at 00:07 #

    I have in my household one child with Autism, and three other members, myself included, with ASD like aspects to our personalities, but would not qualify for a diagnosis. My husband and I score highly when we undertake the Broad Autism Phenotype test, yet neither are disabled by our traits (experience difficulties yes). I dont have any problem conceptualising the difference between Autism and ASD like behaviours.

  5. Passing Thru May 26, 2011 at 15:01 #

    Has it really got to the point where anybody cares what John Stone thinks about anything?

  6. victor pavlovic May 26, 2011 at 22:03 #

    I see the paid Big Pharma bloggers are out in force on this site, why is that? To defend the profits of themselves and of others who tend to profit from the brain damage these vaccines cause, so as each day goes by more people are injured/killed by the mostly untested toxins they want us to inject in our bodies. In response to this people are less likely to take any prescription drugs due to lack of trust in Big Pharma.

    • Kev May 26, 2011 at 22:12 #

      Do you genuinely mean what you’ve just said or are you simply having a laugh/trolling? Please tell me its the latter.

  7. Sniffer May 26, 2011 at 22:14 #

    Dear all,

    The point here is not about you-yourselves having Autism .

    Can anyone provide a break down to back up the statement
    “Something I think about 1% of these 83 were. ” (Autistic)

    The odds these days of walking down the street and picking 1 autistic child /adult is 1 in 35 in the UK amongst males.
    The statement 1% of these 83 were. ” (Autistic).This from a group already compensated for vaccine damage ?A bit Mnooken tripping going on , crazy .A much higher ratio at least 300 percent higher based on NT populous.Then again were not comparing NT but Vaccine damaged so it must be even again higher because of the simple fact they have proven vaccine damage already.

    I would say your out by 8300 percent in making the statement “Something I think about 1% of these 83 were. ” (Autistic).

    Sincerely

    Sniffer

  8. Julian Frost May 27, 2011 at 06:41 #

    Sniffer,
    Please improve your Grammar. I can’t make head nor tail of what you are trying to say.

  9. Sniffer May 27, 2011 at 08:25 #

    Dear JF,

    “The point here is not about you-yourselves having Autism .

    Can anyone provide a break down to back up the statement
    “Something I think about 1% of these 83 were. ” (Autistic)”

    Fairly clear my 5 year old son just read it out and understood it.

    Sincerely

    Sniffer

  10. Kev May 27, 2011 at 08:30 #

    Sniffer just go through the law paper and count the number of kids who actually _had autism_ – not autistic symptoms or signs of autism but actually were diagnosed with autism. That’ll get you your figure.

  11. Sniffer May 27, 2011 at 13:32 #

    Dear Kev,

    I have and I still don`t get anywhere near the figure the writer suggests .As below typed for you ,please aware of the odd mistake .

    “2011] UNANS WERED QUESTIONS 511
    Seventeen of the twenty-one cases noted above mention the word “autism,” “autistic,” or one of the autistic disorders, Rett’s Disorder or Pervasive Developmental Disorder.1 Iii Four cases describe developmental regression and self-injurious behaviors highly consistent with descriptions of severe autism. It? Some of the cases rule that a vaccine caused brain injury, includIng autism. For instance, in the Banks u. [1115 case, the Special Master wrote that the brain damage led ‘inexorably from vaccination to Pervasive Developmental Delay.”1 IS Child Doe/ 77 u. [[[[S concedes that vaccines aggravated a pre-existing initochondrial disorder “which eventually manifested as a chronic encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.”’ 19
    Other cases deny that the autism in the child is in any way related to the vaccines or compensated brain injuries. For instance, in Underwood v. [[ifS, the government’s position was that the child’s mental retardation and autism “are not related to the residual seizure disorder.”12° Similarly, in Koston u. UKS, the governm(nt asserted that the “seizures were caused by Rett Syndrome and not by the DPT vaccination.” 121 Whether or not vaccines “caused” or “resulted in” autism is not decided in all cases, although it is in some. What is clear, however, is that autism is sometimes associated with compensated vaccine- induced brain injury. ”

    A lot higer than one.Can you please remove the suggestion of one or correct it.

    Sincerely

    Sniffer

  12. Sniffer May 27, 2011 at 14:58 #

    Dear Kev

    For clarity .

    504 PACE ENVIRONMENTAL LAW RE VIEW [Vol. 28

    authors have included scientists at the CDC, the Institute of
    Medicine, and the VICP.

    a. VICP Published Cases Compensating
    Encephalopathy and Residual Seizure Disorder,
    Noting or Suggesting Autism or Autism-like
    Symptoms

    The authors, with the assistance of Pace Law students,
    created a database of VICP published decisions that used
    relevant terms related to autism. Through this search of final
    VICP decisions or case stipulations. we found twenty-one
    decisions that acknowledged autism or autism-like symptoms
    associated with vaccine-induced encephalopathy and seizure
    disorder. The following table summarizes the cases and
    stipulations with language that strongly suggests autistic
    features:

    Language Suggesting Autism or Autism-like Symptoms
    I ,
    Alger v. Sec y of
    Health &
    I
    Human Servs. ,
    1990 WE 293408. at *4 (C]. Ct. July 13,

    1990). His mental development has Lieen arrested He doesnt speak and will never communicate verbally.He doesn`t respond to verbal communication. He is not toilet trained .He is self-destructive and very difficult to manage. He needs constant one-on-one care to protect him from injuring himself and others.

    2
    Sorensen v. Sec’s’ of Health & Human Serys.1990 WE 290491, at
    *(Cl. Ci. Dec. 6,1990).
    – . .
    “Petitioners further maintain that the injuries resulted in permanent disabilities involving significant developmental delay, moderate autistic characteristics, and mental retardation.”

    3.
    Sorensen v.Sec`y of Health & Human Servs 1991 WL 30664. at
    *2,*4 (Cl. Ct. Feb.20, 199]).

    “Today he has a seizure disorder which is under control and a condition known as over-focusing, similar in some respects to autism…. As a sequela to the encephalopathy. Wes Ian Kleinert suffered complications for more than six months after the administration ot the 1)1 I vaccine, and he continues to suffer from these complications, which have developed into a residual seizure disorder and autistic tenencies

    4.
    Connor v. Sec’y of Health & human Servs.1991 WE 133618, at
    *6 (Cl. Ct. July 3,1991).

    “[R}espondent.’s report ‘suggests vaguely.., that Kenny’s problems ‘can be attributed in part to other causes such as a family history of epilepsy, autism and ton- sillar hypotrophy. . Dr. Spiro did not even purport to know what did cause Kenny’s seizure disorder his basic point was that in his view the DTP did not cause it.”

    5.
    Messner v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs.1991 WL 74145, at *4
    (CI. Ct, Apr. 22.1991).

    “Jennifer is a severely mentally retarded individual with hyperactive and destructive behaviors. . Her social functioning is extremely inappropriate: she is belligerent and sometimes aggressivie’…she. . practices self stimulating behavior; and she repeatedly bites her hand She presents a danger to herself and to family members.”

    6. ,
    Oxley v. Sec y of Health &Human Servs.1991 U.S.Cl .Ct LEXIS 575, at *4

    “RichelIe’s disabilities include autistic-like behavior, hyperactivity, and partially, controlled seizures. Richelle is totally dependent on others for her care and needs
    constant supervision and assistance – he is non-verbal but signs several words.

    7.
    Underwood v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs.1991 WL 156659. at
    *1 (Cl. Ct. duly 31.1991).

    “In addition, respondent noted that Travis’ medical records indicate that he suffred from mental retardation and autism. These conditions, according to respondent, are not related to the residual seizure disorder.”

    8.Sharpnack v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs.1992 WL 167255, at
    *8 (Cl. Ct. June 29.1992).

    ‘The evidence shows that Megan exhibits some very difficult behavioral problems that interfere with her education and social adjustment. Her behavior, which includes head hanging, pulling her own hair, and scratching at things. must be constantly redirected. Her disruptive and noncompliant behavior has become a major barrier to progress in functioning.”

    9. .
    Koston v. Sec`y of Health & Human Servs.974 F.2d 157,158-59
    (Fed. Cir. 1992).

    (A)pproximately twelve hours after receiving her second DPT vaccination, Jenna experienced a seizure… Dr. Dons Trauner. . concluded that Jenna suffers from a variant of Rett Syndrome..
    (T]he Secretary wanted to assert that Jenna s seizures were causcd by Rett Syndrom and not by the DPT vaccination

    10.
    Sanford v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs.1993 WL 177003, at
    *2 (Fed. CI. May 10,1998).

    Her condition is complicated by a behavior disorder. She is highly impulsive, has no concept of danger, cannot accept control, and has autistic tendencies.”

    11.
    Bastian v. Sec`y of Health & Human Servs.1994 U.S. Claims*
    LEXIS 196, at 16-17(Fed. Cl. Sept. 22, 1994)

    “Dr. Quinn opined that Kyle suffers from pervasive developmental disorder (PDD) Dr. Quinn explained that PDD is caused by a brain insult Dr Quinn Indicated Kyle s post-vaccinal encephalopathy was the brain insult which in turn resulted in his PDD. Dr. Quinn opined, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that Kyle’s condition is permanent.

    12.
    Lassiter v. Sec`y of Health & Human Servs.1996 U.S. Claims
    LEXIS 216 at *12 (Fed. Cl. Dec. 17, 1996)

    “Respondent argues that Kric’s current. behavioral manifestations and retardation fit the pattern of autistic spectrum disorders with severe mental retardation.’ Dr Spiro summarizes: This child had a DPT-related febrile) reaction following his DPT booster but it is clear that he currently fits into the Autistic spectrum dis
    order with retardation. This group of disorders is totally unrelated to DPT, it usually constitutes a group of genetically determined or idiopathic disorders (without a clear known etiology.)”

    13.
    Suel v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs. 1997 WL 617034 ‘at
    *3 (Fed. Cl. Sept.22 1997)

    Petitioners alleged that David suffered significant aggravation of his pre-existing tuberous sclerosis (TS) in the form of an encephalopathy and a residual seizure disorder…Having seizures early in life is likely to lead to mental underdevelopment or mental retardation. Autism is a frequent occurrence among TS patients. Dr Gomez has never seen an autistic ‘TS child who did not have seizures.”

    14.

    Reitz v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs. 1998 WL 228421, at
    * 1 *4 *5 (Fed. Cl.Apr. 21, 1998).

    ‘He would bang his head approximately six times and then return to normal. These episodes (occur) almost daily.Derrick has the cognitive skills of a two or three year old, and improves slowly. Although he speaks, he cannot do so in complete sentences. He has behavioral problems due to frustration. He receives behavioral therapy, occupatonal therapy, physical therapy, and speech therapy.He was never the same after the third DPT vaccination He lost milestones and development.

    15.
    Tebcherani v. Sec’y of Health & Humin Servs 55 Fed Cl 460, 468 2003)

    Dr. Mac Donald( responent`s expert] noted that Lena carries a diagnosis of pervasive developmental disorder, also known as autistic spectrum disorder, In Dr. Mac Donald s opinnion Lena`s Autism is not related to theDPT vaccnation

    16.
    Freeman v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs 2003 U.S.Claims LEXIS 285 at *26 n 7(Fed.Cl Sept 25,2003).

    “It was noted at the hearing that Kienan’s neurologic disorder has features that might cause it to be labeled as a typical autism, a condition within the category of ‘autistic spectrum disorder.’ I note, however, that even assuming that Kienan’s disorder is correctly classified within the ‘a typical autism’ category, that is essentially irrelevant to my ruling concerning the entitlement issue in this case. As Dr Kinshourne explained, Kienan’s autistic-type features seem to be a result of the brain damage that caused his severe mental retardation. As Dr. Kinshourne further explained, brain damage is one of the many possible causes of autism. Thus. I cannot see why the fact That Kienan’s seizure disorder may fall within the autism spectrum has any substantial relevance to the question of what caused Kienan’s seizure disorder and mental retardation.”

    17.

    Gancz v. Sec`y of Health & Human Servs. 2003 No. 91 -0178V,
    1 (Stipulation).

    Petitioners allege that Sarah sustained the first symptom or manifestation of the onset of seizures within the period set forth in the Table. They further allege Sarah developed autism and behavioral problems as the sequelae of her Table injury.

    18.

    Noel v. Secy of Health & Human Servs. 2004 WL 3049764, at
    *13 (Fed. Cl. Dec. 14, 2004).

    “Dr. Shafrir testified that Rachel had a reaction to her acellular DPT. which con- sisted of lethargy, irritability, and a high-pitched cry. He stated that her seizure disorder was independent of her DPT reaction, and that the seizure disorder led to epilepsy, developmental delay, and autism. She died of sudden unexpected death in epilepsy.”

    19. .
    Paulmino v. Sec`y of Health & Human Servs. 69 Fed Cl.1, 4 (2005).

    “Erika was described as: A four-year old female with intractable epilepsy, PDD) (pervasive developmental disorder].As of the filing of this-action. Erika continues to suffer from a developmental and speech-and-language disorder and requires therapy.

    20. ,
    Banks v. Sec y of Health & Human Servs. 2007 U.S. Claims,
    LEXIX 254. at *54(Fed. Cl. July 21, 2007).

    “Bailey’s ADEM [acute disseminated encephalomyelitis] was severe enough to cause lasting, residual damage, and retarded his developmental progress, which fits under the generalized heading of Pervasive Developmental Delay, or PDD. Additionally, this chain of causation was not too remote,but was rather a proximate sequence of cause and effect leading inexorably from vaccination to Pervasive Developmental Delay.’’

    21.
    Child Doe/77 v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs. 2010 WL 3395654, at * 1 (Fed. Cl. July 21 2010).

    “Respondent has conceded that petitioners are entitled to compensation due to the significant aggravation of Child Doe/77’s pre-existing mitochondrial disorder based on a MMR vaccine Table presumptive injury of encephalopathy,which eventually manifested as a chronic encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder and a complex partial seizure disorder as a sequela.”

    2011] UNANSWERED QUESTIONS 511

    Seventeen of the twenty-one cases noted above mention the word “autism,” “autistic,” or one of the autistic disorders, Rett’s Disorder or Pervasive Developmental Disorder.116 Four cases describe developmental regression and self-injurious behaviors highly consistent with descriptions of severe autism. 117 Some of the cases rule that a vaccine caused brain injury, including autism. For instance, in the Banks v. HHS case, the Special Master wrote that the brain damage led “inexorably from vaccination to Pervasive Developmental Delay.”8 Child Doe/fl
    u. HHS concedes that vaccines aggravated a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder “which eventually manifested as a chronic encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum djsorder.”9
    Other cases deny that the autism in the child is in any way related to the vaccines or compensated brain injuries. For instance, in Underwood u. HHS. the government’s position was that the child’s mental retardation and autism “are not related to the residual seizure 120 Similarly, in Koston v. HHS. the government asserted that the “seizures were caused by Rett Syndrome and not by the DPT vaccination.”121 Whether or not vaccines “caused” or “resulted in” autism is not decided in all cases, although it is in some. What is clear, however, is that autism is sometimes associated with compensated vaccine- induced brain injury.
    116. The four cases above not using a specific autism-related term are Case 1,
    Alger v. Sec’’ of Health & Human Servs.. No. $$-31V. 1990 WL 29407 (Cl. Ct.
    July 13, 1990): Case 5. Messner v. Sec’v of Health & Human Servs., No. 90-
    552V. 1991 VL 74145 (Cl. Ct. Apr. 22. 1991): Case 8. Sharpnack v, Sec’y of
    Health & Human Servs., No. 90-983V, 1992 WL 167255 (Cl. Ct. June 29. 1992);
    Case 14 Reitz v. Sec’y of Health & Human Sen’s.. No. 90-1344V, 1998 WL
    228421 (Fed. Cl. Apr. 21. 1998).
    117. See Case 1. Alger, 1990 WL 293407, at *4; Case 5, Mcssner, 1991 WL
    74145, at *4; and Case 8, Sharpnack. 1992 WL 167255 at *8; and, Case 14. Rcitz, 1998 WL 228421, at *1, *4 *5
    118. Case 19, Banks v. Sec’v of Health & Human Seers., No. 02-0738V, 2007 U.S. Claims LEXIS 254. at *54 (Fed. (ii. July 29. 2007).
    119. Case 20. Child Doe/77 v. Sec’y of Health & Human Seers., 2010 WL
    3395654. at *1 (Fed. Cl. July21. 201 0).
    120. Case 7. Underwood v. Sec’y of Health & Human Seers., No, 90-71 9V.
    1991 WL 156659, at *1 (Cl. Ct. July 31, 1991).
    121. Case 9, Koston v. Sec’y of Health & Human Servs,, 974 F.2d 157. 159 (Fed. Cir. 1992).
    1,

    Sincerely

    Sniffer

  13. Stuart Duncan May 27, 2011 at 19:47 #

    Adding to Kev’s comment… you have to keep in mind that “mentions autism or autism-like symptoms” is not a diagnosis, also “based on interviews with the parents” is not a diagnosis…

  14. Harold L Doherty May 28, 2011 at 08:39 #

    “Sniffer just go through the law paper and count the number of kids who actually had autism – not autistic symptoms or signs of autism but actually were diagnosed with autism. That’ll get you your figure.”

    Kev,I may owe you an apology. I have always assumed that you subscribed to a non-medical model of autism disorders. Acknowledging the medical, or disorder diagnosis, model of autism might result in a loss of some of your Neurodiversity supporters. I commend your honesty on this issue.

    • Kev May 28, 2011 at 08:44 #

      Thats because you don’t understand – or even try to – what neurodiversity is Harold.

  15. Kev May 28, 2011 at 08:50 #

    Sniffer, are you wilfully misunderstanding? I said those who had an actual diagnosis of autism. For example: ‘which eventually manifested as a chronic encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.’ doesn’t make the cut.

  16. Brian Morgan May 28, 2011 at 11:46 #

    “Fairly clear my 5 year old son just read it out and understood it.”

    I’m only trying to be helpful, but perhaps the 5 year old could post a synopsis?

  17. Harold L Doherty May 28, 2011 at 12:17 #

    Kev, I don’t know why you have to respond with such hostility.

    Are you suggesting that there is an official definition of Neurodiversity of which you have authoritative knowledge?

    Does that definition include recognition that autism disorders are Medical Disorders?

  18. Sniffer May 28, 2011 at 13:14 #

    Dear Kev,

    Your spam machine is stopping the case subjects from coming through .Very clearly you would need to have your head on back to front to not accept Autism on the subject cases.

    Sincerely

    Sniffer

    P.S Dear Brian Brain if you had the Brain of a 5 year old I would publish my son`s Facebook page for you ,but you have to grow up a bit before that happen`s.

    • Kev May 28, 2011 at 14:28 #

      I’ve seen what you consider to be clear cut cases Sniffer. I’ll ask again – where are their diagnosis’ of autism? If you think ‘symptoms of autism’ are good enough, read the original post.

  19. Dedj May 28, 2011 at 13:16 #

    If Harold is having a lot of trouble understanding the difference between a medical diagnosis and the medical model of disability, perhaps he should refrain from commenting on the subject until he has brought himself up to a minimal standard?

    It might mean he won’t make such embarrasingly wrongfooted sarcatic posts like the one above.

  20. Harold L Doherty May 28, 2011 at 13:23 #

    Dedj thank you for your insults. Why don’t you move past the insults and provide your description, as an autism disorder expert, of the differences?

  21. Brian Morgan May 28, 2011 at 13:53 #

    Complex diagnoses can be mistaken, with false positives and false negatives. Just look at the medico-legal field I’ve investigated as a journalist, which I notice Dr Wakefield has just taken up as something to speak about, Factitious Induced Illness formerly known as Munchausen’s by Proxy.

    Citation: http://www.autismone.org/content/matter-munchausen-syndrome-proxy-vis-vis-autism-spectrum-disorder

  22. Kev May 28, 2011 at 14:26 #

    I didn’t see any hostility Harold, just frustration. Why bother commenting when you clearly aren’t capable of processing anything with more than a minimal shade of grey. Life is not a court room Harold.

  23. Brian Morgan May 28, 2011 at 14:36 #

    “P.S Dear Brian Brain if you had the Brain of a 5 year old I would publish my son`s Facebook page for you ,but you have to grow up a bit before that happen`s.”

    Not sure which Brian you’re referring to, but have you really permitted your 5 year old son to have a FB page? Sounds very outside Terms And Conditions to me.

  24. Dedj May 28, 2011 at 15:09 #

    “Are you suggesting that there is an official definition of Neurodiversity of which you have authoritative knowledge?”

    No, there is no formal body that could make an ‘official’ definition possible. Nevertheless, a tangible definition is still possible.

    “Does that definition include recognition that autism disorders are Medical Disorders?”

    Given that there are people in the ND movement – including several that you routinely criticise for said membership – who make regular professional, clinical or academic use of the clinical definition of autism, it is fair to say that the ND movement is not incompatible with the medical definition of autism.

    It is also fair to say that effective knowledge of the ND movement would have taught you this.

    As you have made extensive contact with the ND movement over a period of years, yet still wish to imply an incompatibility between the medical defintion of autism (which you wrongly imply is equivilant to the medical model) and a social model interpretation of autism as a disability, it would be fair to say that are either being deliberatly dishonest or that you lack the cognitive ability to process your knowledge in anything other than a black and white way.

    Given that you are infamous for making obtuse black and white misrepresentations of opposing viewpoints even after those opposing viewpoints have been painfully and extensively explained to you, it is fair to say that you may not actually have the capacity to participate in this discussion as anywhere near approaching an equal.

    I have no doubt that Kev allows you to remain here out of some basic ethical principle and that is the only reason why you are not still banned.

  25. Dedj May 28, 2011 at 15:24 #

    “Kev, I don’t know why you have to respond with such hostility.”

    Then I would suggest you show someone else your initial post and listen to their explanation of why a sarcastic post containing a gross misrepresentation could potentially annoy and offend.

    If you honestly can’t see what you’re doing to other people to make them react in the way they do, then I would suggest that both you and everyone else would benefit from either significantly less interaction, or that you allow someone else to read your posts before you submit.

  26. Sniffer May 28, 2011 at 16:15 #

    Dear Kev,

    “I’ll ask again – where are their diagnosis’ of autism?”

    Of the 170 cases the report’s authors examined, 32, or 19 percent, provided documented evidence of autism or autism-like symptoms. The evidence in some cases included findings by the court that the children had autism, “autism-like symptoms” or “symptoms and behavior consistent with autism.” In other situations, third-party medical, educational or other court records confirmed an autistic disorder.

    In addition to those 32 examples, there were 51 cases in which parents interviewed by the researchers said their child’s vaccine injury led to “an autism diagnosis, autistic features or autistic-like behaviors.”

    A key similarity among the 83 successful claims in those two groups of cases, which produced more than $96.7 million in settlements and awards, is that the families did not assert that autism was their child’s primary injury.

    Now any lawyer worth its salt is not going to go to court saying its clear cut Autism are they?

    Sincerely

    Sniffer

  27. Julian Frost May 28, 2011 at 21:01 #

    Sniffer,

    “an autism diagnosis, autistic features or autistic-like behaviors.”

    Autistic features and autistic-like behaviors are not the same as autism. In order to have an official diagnosis, you need to meet at least six criteria in the list.

    Now any lawyer worth its salt is not going to go to court saying its clear cut Autism are they?

    Maybe because said lawyers have the brains to know the difference between autism-like symptoms and autism, unlike you.

  28. Sniffer May 28, 2011 at 21:59 #

    Dear Julian Frost,

    “Maybe because said lawyers have the brains to know the difference between autism-like symptoms and autism, unlike you.”

    If you have a way of showing that the injury manifested in something less controversial, then you do that.

    But I say I know nothing .. making a case for a link between vaccines and autism is not a winner legally.

    Sincerely

    Sniffer

  29. Rebecca Fisher June 1, 2011 at 10:28 #

    I’ve had a bit of a rant about this on my blog already, but:

    Surely John Stone is arguing for widening the definition for autism (among those compensated) to include “anyone with autistic-like symptoms”. Presumably then, autism diagnosis criteria should be widened for everyone – leading to a much higher rate of autism diagnoses. When the rate of people with a formal diagnosis of autism goes up to (say) 1 in 25 or 1 in 33, the anti-vaxers can cry “AUTISM EPIDEMIC WORSENS”.

    In effect, Stone (And JB Handley – he’s made much the same argument) are demonstrating how autism rates have gone up by simply changing the criteria for a diagnosis – precisely what everyone’s been telling them for years.

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