Autism Blog - National Autism Association – More Lies

16 Jul 2007

Author: Kev
Comments: 160

National Autism Association – More Lies

I am beginning to wonder if National Autism Association are actually capable of discussing autism without lying any more. Its becoming more and more blatant. Today, they have released a press release of support for Andrew Wakefield which is simply bizarre:

Parents and advocacy groups around the globe are asking Englandâ€™s General Medical Council (GMC) to cancel the â€œfitness to practiceâ€ inquiry that begins today against Dr. Andy Wakefield, and Professors Walker-Smith and Murch. Advocates say the GMC should instead be asking why so many kids are sick, especially in light of an apparently suppressed analysis showing that autism rates in England are as high as 1 in 58. The medical establishment is being criticized for doing little to find the cause, treat the kids, or prevent new cases.

Uh, no, no they’re not. Parents around the world (of whom I am one) are not asking the GMC to cancel the hearings against Andrew Wakefield. I have read numerous letters, comments in blogs and on forums from parents who are quite happy to see the GMC conduct an inquiry into Wakefield’s behaviour.

An what the hell is this ‘suppressed analysis’ rubbish? Its not suppressed at all. The leaked study was not published and according to the lead author:

So, what are the facts on autism? Does the one-in-58 figure hold up? Baron-Cohen says their study of Cambridgeshire children, which has been running for five years, comes out with a range of figures from one in 58, to one in 200, depending on various factors. The draft report, he says, â€œis as accurate as jottings in a notebookâ€.

The NAA - and anyone who really seriously believes this twaddle – really need to take a long hard look at their motives. Why are they doing this? They know the claim that the data from Baron-Cohen’s study is suppressed is rubbish. What this press release is is simply propaganda. Why are the NAA purposefully lying?

And they continue:

In the first of 5000 cases to be heard in a special vaccine court in the US last month, evidence presented demonstrated that 12-year old Michelle Cedillo began regressing into autism just a week after her MMR vaccination at 15 months. The plausible cause was a persistent measles infection which took hold through an immune system weakened by mercury in vaccines administered prior to the MMR.

Well, the NAA must’ve been reading a different set of transcripts to me. The evidence presented, utilising the video evidence, and interpreted by one of the worlds leading diagnostic authorities on autism clearly showed Michelle Cedillo was autistic way before she had her MMR jabs. It was also clearly demonstrated that the evidence presented to support the assertion that MMR was a ‘plausible cause’ of autism was a joke. The MMR/autism theory revolves around the idea of measles from the MMR travelling to the gut then the brain and causing damage that results in autism. Without measles being present, there is no MMR/autism hypothesis.

Here’s the sworn testimony of Stephen Bustin, the world expert in the technique Wakefieldâ€™s lab of choice screwed up:

What I immediately observed was that they had forgotten to do the RT stepâ€¦....If you detect a target that is apparently measles virus in the absence of an RT step by definition it canâ€™t be measles virus because it has to be DNA. Itâ€™s a very simple concept. At least it is to me. Itâ€™s not to everyone elseâ€¦...[b]ecause measles virus doesnâ€™t exist as a DNA molecule in nature, they cannot be detecting measles virusâ€¦.

We need to be absolutely clear about this. This isn’t an opinion Bustin was expressing. These were findings. He was in the O’Leary lab for (if I recall correctly) about 1,000 hours.

Wakefield never found measles virus .

Then it gets really surreal:

The charges originated from internet blogger Brian Deer, who many parents have suggested may be linked to the pharmaceutical industry. â€œThis is nothing more than a witch hunt brought against scientists willing to undertake ground-breaking research challenging the assumption that autism is an inherited untreatable psychiatric disorder that cannot be prevented. Implicating the safety of vaccines such as MMR isnâ€™t acceptable to drug companies or government officials who want to protect the vaccine program itself at the cost of the health of children,â€ said Mr. Bono.

Brian’s an internet blogger? Weird. last I hears he was a freelance journalist. Certainly the readers of his Times pieces and Channel 4 television reports would think so.

Mr. Bono also needs to internalise a few basic facts.

1) The MMR hypothesis has been on the table since ‘97. So far there has been absolutely no valid research supporting the idea that MMR causes autism or contributes to the development of autism in any way. If there was, why was it not presented at the recent Cedillo hearing?

2) Since ‘97 the MMR uptake fell to nearly 80% at one point. If, as the NAA suggest, autism has skyrocketed to 1 in 58 then how is it that MMR uptake has plummeted whilst autism rates have skyrocketed.

3) I would ask these many parents that the NAA know to back up their allegation that Brian Deer is linked to the pharmaceutical industry. I’m a parent. I don’t think Brian is a big pharma shill. I also think its a particularly pathetic whiny little stab.

4) This is not a witch hunt. This is a look at a man who has put the health of children at risk. Measles and Mumps have increased four fold since ‘97. One English child and several Irish kids died from Measles. Approx 12% of measles sufferers required hospitalisation.

Andrew Wakefield hid the results that he didn’t like. Here is Nick Chadwick on the original Lancet paper:

Q So you personally tested while you were in Dr. Wakefieldâ€™s lab gut biopsy material, CSF and PBMCs?
A Yes, thatâ€™s right.

Q And all the results were either negative, or if they were positive it always turned out that they were false positives?
A Yes, thatâ€™s correct.

Q Did you inform Dr. Wakefield of the negative results?
A Yes. Yes.

Andrew Wakefield conducted poor science. He hid the results that he knew would scupper his poor science. Children have died and have been hospitalised as a result of this appalling dereliction of medical duty.

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Comments

160 Responses to “National Autism Association – More Lies”

Shinga
July 16th, 2007
22:24:11

I fear that that 1 in 58 estimate is going to take on a life of its own. Even the BMJ quotes it uncritically: The British Medical Journal Embarrasses Itself by Reproducing That Notorious 1 in 58 Figure.

In bone-aching detail, CAST (the tool in question) produces a 50% false positive rate but it also has a reliable specificity for correctly identifiying true negatives: it has some potential as a first-pass screening tool for research into epidemiology but not for anything else, as yet.
Matt
July 16th, 2007
22:28:57

“These have now been accepted as the standard of care by a group of leading pediatric gastroenterologists in the United States.”

Would this be…Thoughtful House?

Gosh, they even got in the term, “tsunami”!

OK, let’s assume for a moment that there really is an epidemic (there isn’t). Then, wouldn’t Dr. Wakefield’s misleading studies be even worse? Isn’t he somehow misdirecting needed resources away from the battle against the “hell that is autism”?

No matter how you look at it, what Wakefiled did was wrong. I am offended at his actions as a human, as a person with a family member who has autism and as a scientist.

And, yes, it is true some of the parents “around the world” would prefer that Wakefield didn’t get put up on charges in the UK. Those of us in the US would prefer that he didn’t move here, thank you very much.

Matt
Ms. Clark
July 17th, 2007
00:41:08

http://autismdiva.blogspot.com.....ation.html

The press release is from this NAA? The NAA headquartered in Nixa, Missouri? In the former space occupied by a hairdressers?
Mercury Dad
July 17th, 2007
03:46:10

Kevin:

I hate to break this to you, but you are just one parent, and a parent sitting in an extreme minority. When the NAA says parents around the globe, they mean it. The last I checked, there were more than 7,000 signatures from parents, and today there were a couple hundred of your countrymen supporting Dr. Wakefield, most of whom feel you are an idiot.

If you tried to get a petition of parents together representing the views of yourself, Diva, and Mr. Deer, all 3 foot 2 of him, you’d have 3 and Diva’s sock puppets, which would get you about 50 votes in total. Throw in the twenty or so posters who claim to be “adult autistics” on your blog, and your up to 70. My bet is that’s your maximum number.

Meanwhile, those of us who believe Dr. Wakefield is telling the truth, who subscribe to the views of NAA, ARI, and others, our numbers keep growing. Thousands of us go to DAN! conferences, thousands of us sign a petition for Wakefield, and thousands of us think you are, again, a complete idiot.

What’s worse, you seem to think autism is something that can’t be cured but only supported, and that proper therapy and education is the best thing you can do for your daughter. Fair enough, I only hope for the best for her and your family, but, you seem to think that this blog, and spending your time attacking other parents, is somehow going to help Megan.

I have some bad news for you, Kevin. You haven’t convinced one of us, not a one, that we are anything but right. Yes, you’ve been a magnet for many adult autistic or at least wanna-be autistics, but not one parent has been moved by your shrilly, whiny, pathetic little blog. If you had a quid for every hour you have spent typing away at your little desk, you could afford the best education Britain has to offer for Megan.

Instead, what you’ve got is a whole lot of nothing. Is this the best way to spend your time- telling people “My favourite horrible indulgence is dunking bourbon biscuits into tap water and then slurping the whole mess back?”

Up the meds for your self-professed bipolar disorder Kev (I guess you think that gives you ND street cred), none of us are listening.

MercuryDad

p.s. Thanks for the photo idea, Diva, we’ll be sending a film crew to your trailer – film at 11.
Do'C
July 17th, 2007
04:06:51

I hate to break this to you, but you are just one parent, and a parent sitting in an extreme minority.

Argument ad populum.

When the NAA says parents around the globe, they mean it. The last I checked, there were more than 7,000 signatures from parents, and today there were a couple hundred of your countrymen supporting Dr. Wakefield, most of whom feel you are an idiot.

Totally meaningless argumentum ad populum and ad numerum.

If you tried to get a petition of parents together representing the views of yourself, Diva, and Mr. Deer, all 3 foot 2 of him, youâ€™d have 3 and Divaâ€™s sock puppets, which would get you about 50 votes in total. Throw in the twenty or so posters who claim to be â€œadult autisticsâ€ on your blog, and your up to 70. My bet is thatâ€™s your maximum number.

Ad hominem and more argumentum ad numerum.

Meanwhile, those of us who believe Dr. Wakefield is telling the truth, who subscribe to the views of NAA, ARI, and others, our numbers keep growing. Thousands of us go to DAN! conferences, thousands of us sign a petition for Wakefield, and thousands of us think you are, again, a complete idiot.

Argumentum ad populum. Didn’t you read the transcripts from the Cedillo case JB?

Whatâ€™s worse, you seem to think autism is something that canâ€™t be cured but only supported, and that proper therapy and education is the best thing you can do for your daughter. Fair enough, I only hope for the best for her and your family, but, you seem to think that this blog, and spending your time attacking other parents, is somehow going to help Megan.

“Evil neurodiverse” ad hominem.

I have some bad news for you, Kevin. You havenâ€™t convinced one of us, not a one, that we are anything but right. Yes, youâ€™ve been a magnet for many adult autistic or at least wanna-be autistics, but not one parent has been moved by your shrilly, whiny, pathetic little blog. If you had a quid for every hour you have spent typing away at your little desk, you could afford the best education Britain has to offer for Megan.

You know what they say JB. “You can’t reason someone out of a position they haven’t reasoned themselves into.” More ad hominem in there too.

Instead, what youâ€™ve got is a whole lot of nothing. Is this the best way to spend your time- telling people â€œMy favourite horrible indulgence is dunking bourbon biscuits into tap water and then slurping the whole mess back?â€

Yet more ad hominem.

Up the meds for your self-professed bipolar disorder Kev (I guess you think that gives you ND street cred), none of us are listening.

Even more ad hominem. Has someone accused you “us” of listening?

If you took logic or debate at Stanford, I’d consider asking for a refund.

(ad hominem)
Kev
July 17th, 2007
10:40:38

Deary, deary me – It amazes me that you wife lets you out in public sometimes Brad. It seems that you require even more schooling which – as ever – I’m more than happy to provide to you, free of charge :o)

“I hate to break this to you, but you are just one parent, and a parent sitting in an extreme minority. When the NAA says parents around the globe, they mean it. The last I checked, there were more than 7,000 signatures from parents, and today there were a couple hundred of your countrymen supporting Dr. Wakefield, most of whom feel you are an idiot.”

Sitting in an extreme minority? I really don’t think you’re looking at this accurately Brad. You’re looking at it as a purely evil ND vs Saint Brad way. I’m afraid you are – as is usually the case – quite wrong. The majority of people who have autism in their lives really don’t give a shit about either you or me. However, a quick perusal of the Observer’s letters page would’ve revealed the true nature of the people who stand opposite you Brad. Scientists. Doctors. As well as people like me and autistic people themselves. I hate to break this to you Brad but all of the scientists I’ve spoken to who are even aware of what you do or who you (and the NAA) are consider you a scientific laughing stock.

But lets put this 7,000 figure in perspective shall we? If we accept the Baird et al rate of 1 in 100 prevalence then according to NAS 133,500 UK children are autistic. If we are unbelievably generous and assume every single signature on that petition to support Wakers is a) genuine and b) from a UK citizen then that means that 7,000 equates to 5% of the UK autism parents community who think Wakefield is right and support him. If you want to extrapolate that to the whole world (autism is international after all Brad) then, according to the CIA Factbook 27.4% of the world population (6,602,224,175) are under 15 which gives us a figure of 1,809,009,423.9. Your 7,000 represent 0.00038% of the international autism community. Now that, my friend, is an extreme minority. There aren’t stats that I could find of what number of the world population trust doctors and scientists in matters of health and science but I’m going to go ahead and assume its a very, very high figure indeed.

“If you tried to get a petition of parents together representing the views of yourself, Diva, and Mr. Deer, all 3 foot 2 of him, you’d have 3 and Diva’s sock puppets, which would get you about 50 votes in total. Throw in the twenty or so posters who claim to be “adult autistics” on your blog, and your up to 70. My bet is that’s your maximum number.”

Really? Well, Kathleen’s petition about Boyd Haley’s slur against autistic people as being mad gained over 500 signatures. This one about Autism Speaks gained 860 before I shut it. This one to the NIH has about 580 and is still going. And hey Brad – guess what? These petitions achieved results! Guess how much impact this 7,000 strong one will have with the GMC?

And lets look at forums. This forum I set up a short while ago which is strictly for parents of autistic people has over 150 members. WrongPlanet has over 12,000 members. AspiesForFreedm is another very large web forum. If you want to limit this to Evil ND’s vs Vax/Autim parents then you can consider your ass well and truly numerically kicked :o) – if we want to expand it to what it really is – a debate about science vs quackery then you are so small it would be difficult to see you if you were painted day-glo pink whilst sitting on a black background.

And what’s this bizarreness about a persons size??? Does height correlate to accuracy? Or do you have a long standing issue with matters of size? Did the older boys used to point and laugh at little Brad?

“Meanwhile, those of us who believe Dr. Wakefield is telling the truth, who subscribe to the views of NAA, ARI, and others, our numbers keep growing. Thousands of us go to DAN! conferences, thousands of us sign a petition for Wakefield, and thousands of us think you are, again, a complete idiot.”

Again, no. Web trends for the ARI site for example show a continual downturn year on year. The fact that there are a hardcore 0.00038% of you who think DAN! doctors are worthwhile only speaks to your idiocy I’m afraid.

“What’s worse, you seem to think autism is something that can’t be cured but only supported, and that proper therapy and education is the best thing you can do for your daughter.”

Autism isn’t something that can be cured. Unless you can show me the science that shows it can be…? I don’t support autism at all. I support autistic people.

“you seem to think that this blog, and spending your time attacking other parents, is somehow going to help Megan.”

I’ll occasionally attack parents like you, Julia Berle etc who are either liars or just plain stupid but most of the time I attack the quacks that you have fallen for. This will help Meg, and Jamie and lots of other autistic kids who won’t have useless, dangerous quackery foisted on them. It will also, I hope, serve to document how autism fell prey to quackery and help prevent such idiocy happening again.

“I have some bad news for you, Kevin. You haven’t convinced one of us, not a one, that we are anything but right.”

Really? I wouldn’t be so quick with that assumption Brad ;o) – apply a bit of logical thinking. Unless I’m a member of every single Yahoo/autism/quack group on the planet (which I am not) then who do you think is giving me some of the information I get and blog about? As I’ve said to you before, I used to exchange regular emails with three of your Rescue Angels. I don’t so much any more as they’ve fallen away from the whole vaccine thing.

“Yes, you’ve been a magnet for many adult autistic or at least wanna-be autistics, but not one parent has been moved by your shrilly, whiny, pathetic little blog.”

There you go with the ‘little’ thing again….its really an issue for you isn’t it?

“If you had a quid for every hour you have spent typing away at your little desk,”

Damn! leave it alone Brad. You have issues with ‘things’ being ‘little’ – I get it, now come on. Stop exposing your little thing for everyone to laugh at dude ;o)

“you could afford the best education Britain has to offer for Megan.”

I guess the exchange rate really has gone monumentally bad if Â£5 per week buys a good education in the US.

“Instead, what you’ve got is a whole lot of nothing. Is this the best way to spend your time-”

Best way? I dunno. A way? Yup. And I don’t intend to stop any time soon :o)

“Up the meds for your self-professed bipolar disorder Kev (I guess you think that gives you ND street cred), none of us are listening.”

Self professed? Of course it is. Who else would profess anything on my blog? Unless you think I’m going to invite my doc on here?

As for ND street cred. Ha! I think I have probably the lowest ND street cred on the planet right now.

And none of you are listening? Well, admittedly, it is difficult to hear the voices of 0.00038% of a community but please Brad, when you come on my blog, read an entry, respond to it and then tell people no one reads my blog you just make yourself look monumentally foolish.
Shinga
July 17th, 2007
11:03:54

The petition has signatures from around the world, several are in Italian. The usual names that you would expect to see are there; e.g., Rollens, Yabak, Best, Stone, Ash, Usman, a bunch of people who are using the petition to promote their own DAN!, homeopathy etc. practice.

I’ve run 2 samples of the signatures, 3 weeks apart. On both occasions, the Anoymous + the duplications were substantial: here, here, here, and here.

.
bones
July 17th, 2007
12:15:33

I’m suprised B.J. could pull himself (snicker-snicker) away from his weekly game of slap-ass w/ Kirby, Coleman, Schaffer, Nansteil, and that plaintiff atty from Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.
bullet
July 17th, 2007
12:36:03

In the parenting groups I’ve been on, the toddler groups, the NCT coffee mornings, basically anywhere I’ve come into contact with other parents of babies and toddlers the number who don’t want their child to have the MMR is in a definite minority. The number who oppose vaccinations full stop as opposed to single vaccinations are positively miniscule.
bullet
July 17th, 2007
12:42:47

Oh and well as being an Aspergers adult I am a parent of an autistic son. A son who, we have been told, has such severe communication and understanding difficulties, that, at this stage, education in a mainstream school isn’t an option for him. He requires a lot of help and support every day, we are still working on trying to get him to tell us if he’s in pain, or cold, or hungry. Simple conversations along the lines of “I playing with my trains” are a long way off. He has routines that he has to follow each day to help him make sense of things. There is no doubt that he is on the autistic spectrum. Not once have I ever thought not to get him vaccinated. I would rather have him as he is, healthy, happy and learning at his own pace and on his own path than run the risk of him having an adverse reaction to, say, measles, or passing the infection onto a more vulnerable child.
andrea
July 17th, 2007
14:23:22

Some People are under the mis-impression that scientific knowledge is determined by popular vote rather than repeatedly verifiable facts!

Well sorry, it isn’t. Things do not become true merely for wanting them to be, or because they would fit your world-view better. Those methods operate in the realm of religion and personal belief systems. They Just. Won’t. Work. in the realm of science and medicine.
Anthony
July 17th, 2007
14:40:00

“Some People are under the mis-impression that scientific knowledge is determined by popular vote rather than repeatedly verifiable facts!”

Quite right.

But even if you accept their argument, they are wrong in any case. The majority of parents still vaccinate with MMR. Of the minority that do not use MMR vaccine, the majority are likely to be those scared by extremist activists into doubting the safety of MMR vaccine, rather than true believers in the MMR-autism hypothesis (sorry, I mean tenet of faith in the Church of The Latter Day Dr Andrew Wakefield).

So I think we can safely say that Kev is in the large majority of rationale individuals, rather than the small minority of cranks and their brainwashed dupes who continue to endanger children be spreading evidence-free quackery.
Good Mercury
July 17th, 2007
14:44:48

Hi Folks. Is this science?

1 ppb mercury = Kills human neuroblastoma cells (Parran et al., Toxicol Sci 2005).

2 ppb mercury = U.S. EPA limit for drinking water (http://www.epa.gov/safewater/c......html#mcls).

20 ppb mercury = Dendritic cells damaged, calcium channels interrupted (UC-Davis MIND Institute, 2006).

200 ppb mercury = level in liquid the EPA classifies as hazardous waste (http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/ha.....m#hazwaste)

600 ppb mercury = Level in a currently licensed Hepatitis B, multi-dose vaccine vial, labeled as trace. This is administered at birth.

2,000 ppb mercury = 0.50-mL injections of Thimerosal-containing vaccines (FDA CBER’s definition of “trace”).

25,000 ppb mercury= Concentration of mercury in multi-dose, Hepatitis B vaccine vials, administered at birth from 1990-2000 in the U.S. Not administered at birth in any other developed country.

50,000 ppb mercury = Concentration of mercury in DTaP and Haemophilus B vaccine administered 8 times in the 1990’s to children at 2, 4, 6, 12 and 18 months of age. Current “preservative” level mercury in flu, meningococcal and tetanus (7 and older) vaccines.
Kev
July 17th, 2007
15:00:40

Good strawmen Good Mercury. All – and I do mean all – of the points you raise have absolutely nothing to do with mercury causing autism.
Joseph
July 17th, 2007
15:35:52

Brad, if you’re right, let’s see a rebuttal of the arguments and testimony. Is ad-hominem all you got? I think so.

You say there aren’t that many bloggers on this side of the debate. Where are the bloggers on your side? Kirby and Ginger? They don’t even engage or allow debate.

You think you are in the majority? Doesn’t look like it from the traffic Generation Rescue and SafeMinds get, compared to, say, this very blog.
Matt
July 17th, 2007
16:11:13

Mercury Dad—
This isn’t a popularity contest. The GMC isn’t getting together to decide if Andy should be King of the Prom. They are deciding if he acted unethically.

A scientist can be wrong. He/she can make mistakes. However, Wakefield published something with major impact—knowing but not disclosing that there are serious questions as to the validity of the data. He knew that he had an undisclosed conflict of interest.

But, you know all that. And that’s the problem.

You and others shouldn’t be convinced by Kev. You should be convinced by the facts, though.

Matt
Mercury Dad
July 17th, 2007
16:57:42

Kevin, thanks for making my point, and demonstrating your wizadry with numbers when you wrote:

“Well, Kathleenâ€™s petition about Boyd Haleyâ€™s slur against autistic people as being mad gained over 500 signatures.”

My point exactly! During the “mad-cow affair” which was the ND heyday, the Super Bowl of NDs, you got 500 signatures. And, Wakefield has 14-times as many. Thank you!! On the NDs best freaking day ever, a day when they really had a cause, they were 1/14th of the signatures Wakefield has right now.

Kevin, its worth pointing out your analysis of our survey here, the one where you demonstrated that you had the mathematical skills of a fourth grader repeating third grade, the one where you thought the difference between a 3% prevalence and a 1% prevalence was 2%, the one where your own peeps tried to correct you, the one where I mercifully wrote you privately to correct your faulty math, you know, that one. What I learned from that is that you don’t have the aptitude to understand science, so what position are you actually in to comment on it? If I gave you a thorough analysis of why the CDC/pediatrics and the SSI/Denmark/NEJM studies were faulty, there is no way you would even understand why, because you can’t perform basic math.

This leads me to think you have chosen to rely on people you deem to be “experts” which is part of what got us all into this whole mess in the first place.

Further, it seems that you have decided quackery includes anything that isn’t yet a “mainstream” treatment for autism, whatever that means, despite the fact that you have personally tried very little of the “quackery” you claim to be committed to fighting.

This is what perhaps galls me the most. No one in the mainstream can explain why certain kids are autistic. No cures are offered. Meanwhile, thousands of parents and hundreds of Doctors are busting ass and recovering kids, and they are the fucking enemy? Unbelievable. And, you haven’t tried 95% of what they claim is working for kids, but you are in a position to call it “quackery”?

At the same time, your “friends” on this blog contain many adult autistics who are 100% conversational and capable of writing well-crafted, structured arguments and you somehow think they are like your daughter, the one who doesn’t yet talk? If she’s not talking as an adult (and I certainly hope she is), will they still be your daughter’s kinfolk, these “adult autistics”, some of whom “discovered” they were autistic in college!!

Kevin, for some reason you have chosen to pick fights with almost every well-meaning parent on our side of the table. None of them knew you, none of them had a beef with you, and yet you’ve chosen to attack them and me, somehow in the name of helping your daughter. You drew first blood with each and every one of us. Most don’t have the time to respond to your annoying dribbles, but its worth my time to defend them and defend the parents and doctors working hard to recover our kids, despite idiots like you.

If we were on a rugby pitch, Kev, I’d put my boot in your eye and twist, and no I have no size issues, thanks for asking – is that interest part of your bi-polarity issue? I wasn’t the little guy on the playground getting picked on, I was the big guy who knew how to fight on the playground defending the little kids who were being picked on by shrill, antagonistic, self-indulgent assholes like you.

MercuryDad
HN
July 17th, 2007
19:02:56

Good Mercury, what does this have to do with the MMR vaccine? It has never once had thimerosal in it… so that should not be an issue.

Could one of you “Mercury” guys answer this question: The MMR vaccine in question was approved for use in the USA in 1971, and later in the UK in 1988. The switch for the UK was because the Merck vaccine had a much safer mumps component (you can read about in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinat.....061227951/ ). So why is it that is was only in the UK that there seemed to a problem more than twenty years after it was developed?
Joseph
July 17th, 2007
19:31:57

Let me address the parts-per-billion argument, just for fun, even though it has nothing to do with autism, as noted.

What Good Mercury is arguing is that the EPA safety limit for drinking water is 2 ppb mercury, whereas thimerosal-containing vaccines can have up to 50,000 ppb mercury. (I don’t know if this last number is correct, but I’ll take his word for it).

Without thinking it through, sounds like a pretty amazing difference and negligent in the part of health authorities, doesn’t it?

What you have to ask is why guidelines are defined the way they are. Driking water and vaccines are different animals, mainly because we drink liters of water every day whereas we only get vaccinated a few times in our lifetime. It makes sense that the ppb guidelines on drinking water would be that low.

What matters is how much mercury total we consume in some span of time. The parts-per-billion only matter within some other known context, such as knowing that we drink a couple litters of water a day. To put it another way, if you empty a thimerosal-containing vaccine in a couple buckets of water, all of the sudden the parts-per-billion get drastically reduced.

Given these considerations, a well-known and better comparison is that a TCV contains about the same amount of mercury as a tuna sandwich. (And no, there’s no evidence that injecting is worse than ingesting).
dyslexic_angeleno
July 17th, 2007
19:58:59

You say there arenâ€™t that many bloggers on this side of the debate. Where are the bloggers on your side? Kirby and Ginger? They donâ€™t even engage or allow debate.

Yeah, Ginger (ever playing the holier-than-thou card), pasted back up her blog about Kirby’s outing affair on Huffpo, saying something like it went against everything she stood for to delete things. Huh? The pages of Ginger’s comments to her blog posts, which she has deleted, will soon be as many as the pages in GWTW.
Good Mercury
July 17th, 2007
20:05:02

Joseph, Thanks for responding. Let’s just consider the EPA hazardous waste level of 200 ppb Hg and the 50,000 ppb Hg level in a vaccine. They can spin this anyway they want. Reality is that 500 microliters of a 50,000 ppb solution of mercury is being injected into pregnant women and kids. This is a fact! As far as the tuna argument, mercury in fish is tightly bound to protein and then must go through the digestive track where much of it is eliminated. It is not free, unbound mercury like vaccines. Tuna is usually consumed by adults. Pregnant women are told not to eat it. HN, I know thimerosal was never used in the MMR. It would instantly kill the 3 live viruses. My response was in regards to the exchange between Kev and MercuryDad.
Bink
July 17th, 2007
20:21:42

This is getting ridiculous. Frankly I have spent the day halfway wondering if the Mercury Dad post is an elaborate joke or a prank. I know some (a few,as they truly are in the small minority, though a vocal one) mercury parents and can’t imagine any of them being allied with a person who would write in this manner.
Bink
July 17th, 2007
21:05:07

Well he must be incredibly rattled, Kev. Weird stuff.
Brian Deer
July 17th, 2007
21:06:56

The other side of the coin to the lies, are the attempts to suppress the truth. Everybody probably now knows how Ms Thomas et al came to court before the US Cedillo hearing to try to obstruct the release of the evidence that O’Leary’s lab never published accurate information, and that, according to Bustin, no measles virus was found at all.

Today, it was the same old story. Wakefield’s GMC hearing was delayed most of the day by efforts to prevent material from the Legal Services Commission, which goes to what the GMC alleges is financial fraud by Wakefield, from being used in the GMC hearing.

Again it was an effort to prevent the jigsaw from being assembled: in other words to block the truth from coming out.

The “parents’” effort failed again,,just as the efforts failed over Bustin, and failed over my publication of information on the litigants.

But you have to wonder how people who claim to have been treated unjustly look at themselves in the mirror when they resort to this kind of behaviour.
Kev
July 17th, 2007
22:18:05

“My point exactly! During the â€œmad-cow affairâ€ which was the ND heyday, the Super Bowl of NDs, you got 500 signatures. And, Wakefield has 14-times as many. Thank you!! On the NDs best freaking day ever, a day when they really had a cause, they were 1/14th of the signatures Wakefield has right now.”

Oh Brad, Brad, Brad – come on, you can do better than that, surely. Did your reading comprehension suddenly fail after that point? Did you miss the part where I outlined exactly the level of small fry you are? Or did you (as usual) just pick the bits you like and ignore the bits you don’t?

“Kevin, its worth pointing out your analysis of our survey here, the one where you demonstrated that you had the mathematical skills of a fourth grader repeating third grade, the one where you thought the difference between a 3% prevalence and a 1% prevalence was 2%, the one where your own peeps tried to correct you, the one where I mercifully wrote you privately to correct your faulty math, you know, that one. What I learned from that is that you donâ€™t have the aptitude to understand science, so what position are you actually in to comment on it? If I gave you a thorough analysis of why the CDC/pediatrics and the SSI/Denmark/NEJM studies were faulty, there is no way you would even understand why, because you canâ€™t perform basic math.”

Dam Brad, do you still not get that? Its really, really simple. You don’t have to be a maths whizz Bradders. You just have to know that any survey that establishes a prevalence of 1 in 21 is shit. Anything that comes after that is equally shit. But lets look again at your glorious survey seeing as you seem to need a bit more schooling. In that aggregated 11 – 17 age group (the one you stress as being important), please could you provide me with a statistical analysis of the differences between the fully vaccinated group and the non vaccinated group in all the ASD groupings? Or hey, lets do it for you.

Ages 11-17, all kids:
Aspergers (unvaccinated): 1%
Aspergers (full vaccinated): 2%

Thats a difference of 1%.

PDD-NOS (unvaccinated): 1%
PDD-NOS (full vaccinated): 1%

No difference.

autism (unvaccinated): 2%
autism (full vaccinated): 2%

No difference.

ASD (unvaccinated): 3%
ASD (full vaccinated): 3%

So, please – what is your statistical analysis of those results from your survey Bradders?

“Further, it seems that you have decided quackery includes anything that isnâ€™t yet a â€œmainstreamâ€ treatment for autism, whatever that means, despite the fact that you have personally tried very little of the â€œquackeryâ€ you claim to be committed to fighting.”

Its really very simply Bradders. If it is not indicated its quackery. If it further has a rep for causing damage and death then its quackery.

“This is what perhaps galls me the most. No one in the mainstream can explain why certain kids are autistic. No cures are offered.”

Boo-Hoo. Get over it amigo. Life’s not fair and sometimes Stanford treasurers can’t buy their kid a quick fix.

“Meanwhile, thousands of parents and hundreds of Doctors are busting ass and recovering kids, and they are the fucking enemy?”

Where? What kids? Why, if I had a pound for every time I’d asked you this question and you’d not answered I could buy Megan the best education in the UK! And no, 99% of parents aren’t the enemy. You however – an established liar – are most certainly the enemy. You are an enemy of these parents, you are an enemy of any autistic person who would like a bit of respect for who they are, you are the enemy of parents who’s kids have died or been hospitalised as a result of your unfounded antivax scaremongering and you are the enemy of reason and logic.

“And, you havenâ€™t tried 95% of what they claim is working for kids, but you are in a position to call it â€œquackeryâ€?”

Uh, yeah. I’ve never jumped out of a plane without a parachute but I’m in a position where I think that’s pretty stupid too.

“At the same time, your â€œfriendsâ€ on this blog contain many adult autistics who are 100% conversational and capable of writing well-crafted, structured arguments and you somehow think they are like your daughter, the one who doesnâ€™t yet talk? If sheâ€™s not talking as an adult (and I certainly hope she is), will they still be your daughterâ€™s kinfolk, these â€œadult autisticsâ€, some of whom â€œdiscoveredâ€ they were autistic in college!!”

You really can’t figure it out can you? Everything is black and white in Bradders world and a cure should be buyable by daddy’s with the right connections. Sorry Brad, this is real life. Snap out of your denial trip and get on with it. What has writing well crafted structured arguments got to do with an autism diagnosis? I can tell you this till I’m blue in the face and you’re never ever going to get it. Its the same reason you thought Meg’s story was a real recovery story. You cannot differentiate between growth, change and treatment. Until you can, you’ll never get it.

“Kevin, for some reason you have chosen to pick fights with almost every well-meaning parent on our side of the table. None of them knew you, none of them had a beef with you, and yet youâ€™ve chosen to attack them and me, somehow in the name of helping your daughter. You drew first blood with each and every one of us. Most donâ€™t have the time to respond to your annoying dribbles, but its worth my time to defend them and defend the parents and doctors working hard to recover our kids, despite idiots like you.”

So first of all its not worth your time and you don’t listen, then when I pointed out the stupidness of saying that on my blog it is worth your time? Get your story straight idiot.

I’m afraid you have a twisted version of history. Fortunately, one of the great things about this silly little (oops!) blog is that its all recorded for posterity. Why if people wanted to, they could see yours and mine first ever exchange and decide for themselves who was being polite and who was not.

“If we were on a rugby pitch, Kev, Iâ€™d put my boot in your eye and twist”

Terrifying I’m sure. However, whilst you were trying to coerce your forebrain to complete that action, I’d have skipped past you, scored a try and converted it. Know why? Because you can’t get your head around being beaten on a personal level Bradders. Me? I know this isn’t personal. That’s why I don’t care what you do on a personal level. I’m concentrating on what’s important – you’re playing catch up for the next scrimmage. Story of your life I suspect – always playing catch up ;o)

“and no I have no size issues, thanks for asking â€“ is that interest part of your bi-polarity issue?”

Why? Are you asking me for a date?

“I wasnâ€™t the little guy on the playground getting picked on, I was the big guy who knew how to fight on the playground”

Ooohh, revealing…..

“defending the little kids who were being picked on by shrill, antagonistic, self-indulgent assholes like you.”

...but a nice save in the end. Did Mrs H remind you to put that bit on? And hey, Bradders? Next time you want some education, you just step right up sonny.
Joseph
July 17th, 2007
22:55:11

“Thanks for responding. Letâ€™s just consider the EPA hazardous waste level of 200 ppb Hg and the 50,000 ppb Hg level in a vaccine. They can spin this anyway they want. Reality is that 500 microliters of a 50,000 ppb solution of mercury is being injected into pregnant women and kids. This is a fact!”

Again, those are guidelines for drinking water, are they not? It makes no sense to use that as a guideline for thimerosal in tiny amounts of vaccines, as it would make no sense to use those as guidelines for mercury in tuna. (Also, I am not aware if “they” have spun this in any way – I’m just trying to explain what’s obvious if you just apply some critical thinking to it).

Here’s a clearler example. Suppose we have 1 microgram of water and you add 1 microgram of mercury to it. You will end up with a solution containing 500 million ppb of mercury, or 250 million times the EPA safety limit. Is it safe to drink, yes or no?
mike stanton
July 17th, 2007
22:56:52

Forgetting Brad and back to MMR,

the Observer carried an execrable piece of journalism that attempted to link MMR to a spurious rise in autism which brought a torrent of responses from outraged readers. This one is particularly interesting, coming from Fiona Scott, a Cambridge researcher who was quoted by the reporter without ever being interviewed.
” feel, given that I was one of the two ‘leaders in the field’ (flattering, but rather an exaggeration) reported as linking MMR to the rise in autism, that I should quite clearly and firmly point out that I was never contacted by and had no communication whatsoever with the reporter who wrote the infamous Observer article. It is somewhat amazing that my ‘private beliefs’ can be presented without actually asking me what they are. What appeared in the article was a flagrant misrepresentation of my opinions – unsurprising given that they were published without my being spoken to.

It is outrageous that the article states that I link rising prevalence figures to use of the MMR. I have never held this opinion. I do not think the MMR jab ‘might be partly to blame’. As for it being a factor in ‘a small number of children’, had the journalist checked with me it would have been clear that my view is in line with Vivienne Parry of the JCVI. The ‘small number’ was misrepresented by being linked inappropriately and inaccurately with ‘rise in prevalence’, leading readers to arguably infer that it is in fact NOT a small number!

I wholeheartedly agree with Prof Baron-Cohen, and many of the posts and responses received to date, that the article was irresponsible and misleading. Furthermore I reiterate that it was inappropriate in including views and comments attributed to me and presented as if I had input into the article when I had not (and still have not)ever been contacted by the journalist in question. I am taking the matter under advisement. ”

Read all the comments here http://observer.guardian.co.uk.....31,00.html
I sent my comments direct to the Readers Editor but you can read them on my blog.
Joseph
July 17th, 2007
23:05:35

“I was the big guy who knew how to fight on the playgroundâ€

That’s code for: “I was the one who bullied little kids, some probably on the spectrum, and now I’m stuck with one.”
qchan63
July 17th, 2007
23:46:34

I’ve noticed how, when he posts comments on other, more “public” sites (such as forums for news stories about autism), Mr. Handley seems to go with the reserved, judicious, “gosh-i’m-just-doing-my-best-to-help” shtick.

Then he comes here and slings the noxious schoolyard stuff about Diva’s “trailer” and Brian Deer’s size (WTF?) and his desire to stick a boot in Kevin’s face, along with random insults about bipolarity and the like. That’s on top of his memorably inane stunt a while back of hijacking domain names for Diva, Orack and others.

Bad science aside, it’s pretty hard to muster respect for a guy who acts like that.
Matt
July 18th, 2007
00:12:48

“Joseph, Thanks for responding. Letâ€™s just consider the EPA hazardous waste level of 200 ppb Hg and the 50,000 ppb Hg level in a vaccine. They can spin this anyway they want. Reality is that 500 microliters of a 50,000 ppb solution of mercury is being injected into pregnant women and kids.”

Well, looks like a little spin of your own. Why not just spin to this:

The rest of the vaccine is what would be called a biohazard! If not used, it’s “Infectious Waste” with special rules for disposal! Oh No! We are injecting our kids with “infectious waste”!

Did you know that before they injected my child with a vaccine…well…I hesitate to say that I let them do this…they wiped the area with Alcohol! Yes, a “known neurotoxin” was used!

Here’s a hint—”the dose makes the poison”. Don’t believe me? Check presentations by the Geiers….better yet, check the word of scientists.

I.e., it isn’t what is injected, it is how much and what is the effect. Lot’s of studies have been done which show no link between the amount of mercury presently or historically used in a vaccine and autism.

Matt
Ms Clark
July 18th, 2007
03:21:37

The weird thing is Brad’s been told that I don’t live in a trailer (or mobile home or anything similar,) so even in slamming me as being poor (or whatever he’s getting at) he’s lying.

But isn’t it interesting how he thinks that if he was taller than Kevin (I think not) he’d think he was smarter than Kevin. I’m not entirely sure that Brad is taller than I am, in fact… anyway, taller means better and smarter, and Stanford means better and smarter, and more money means better and smarter… somehow I’m not convinced.

Should be interesting to see what happens to the DAN!/biomed movement if it becomes known widely that Wakers whole vaccine/autism link was a fraud. It doesn’t take much to show that the US vaccine/autism link was based off the fraudulent Wakers vaccine/autism link. It’s an easy trail to follow, actually from the solicitors who approached Wakers with the “sue the vaccine makers” idea to SAFE MINDS, Kirby and NAA, GR and the rest.

The “epidemic” belief system is unravelling as we speak, too. There won’t be much left for the litigant parents and DAN!ites to hang on to.
Matt
July 18th, 2007
03:51:57

Diva,

you got it wrong…he is “sending a film crew to your trailer”. I’m sure he thinks you are on the backlot somewhere filming your next epic.

J.B., I’m ready for my closeup now…

Matt
Kev
July 18th, 2007
04:55:04

“Kev, I have no idea how you put up with that jackass. Kudos to you; youâ€™re a better man than I.”

Well, its twofold really. Firstly, as someone with a history of interacting with the mental health system, one becomes used to dealing with people who produce a lot of noise. Secondly, I know that the more pissed Brad is, the more I have got under his skin and said something he really didn’t want people to know. I like that :o)
Andy Hunter
July 18th, 2007
11:11:08

“according to the CIA Factbook 27.4% of the world population (6,602,224,175) are under 15 which gives us a figure of 1,809,009,423.9. Your 7,000 represent 0.00038% of the international autism community.”

Factual, but not representative of the support that the petition has shown which you’re desperately trying to belittle. If EVERYONE in the international autism community had been asked to read the petition and only 7,000 people agreed to sign, you would be right. However, as only a TINY proportion have actually seen it (passed on mostly by word of mouth) the number of signatures (now 9499) shows what a strength of feeling there is in support of HELPING SICK CHILDREN (something the angry anti-parent/children lot on here never care to mention) and supporting the doctors who were willing to stand up for what they believed in.

Why not take a moment…seriously…to read a few of the comments on there.

http://www.ipetitions.com/peti.....tures.html

It’s about helping the children. If you reply to this with a reasoned, sensible response, avoiding childish personal attacks, it would be refreshing and welcome.
Kev
July 18th, 2007
12:51:52

Andy – if there’s one thing assured to piss me off its people telling me what I should and shouldn’t do on my own blog. Particularly when the points they’re attempting to make are rubbish.

I’m pretty sure that just about every parents of an autistic child in the UK must’ve heard of the Wakefield hearing given that its been on TV, in every newspaper I can think of and discussed ad nauseum online. 7,000 is 5% of the entirety of the autism community who signed the petition. 9499 is 7%. In fact, given that children have two parents its really very much less.

This petition isn’t about supporting sick children, its a show of support for Andrew Wakefield. If this was a petition to raise awareness of sick autistic children then one of the signatures on it would be mine. Are you aware of the utter stupidity of referring to this blog as ‘anti-parent/children’ when I am a parent who has three children?

I’m sorry Andy but in the UK autism community, Wakefield in reality gets very little support. Internationally, its even less. You might not like it, but that’s the way it is.
Andy Hunter
July 18th, 2007
13:27:49

“if thereâ€™s one thing assured to piss me off its people telling me what I should and shouldnâ€™t do on my own blog.” It was a suggestion. Learn to deal with it in a public blog area.

“Particularly when the points theyâ€™re attempting to make are rubbish.” Nice generalisation there. Very amusing.

“Iâ€™m pretty sure that just about every parents of an autistic child in the UK mustâ€™ve heard of the Wakefled hearing” Yes indeed – but not the petition. That hasn’t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.

“In fact, given that children have two parents its really very much less.” Gross generalisation, and totally irrelvant to the fact that parents are individuals and have their own opinions. Both a mothers and a fathers signature are valid.

“This petition isnâ€™t about supporting sick children,” Er…yes it is. Try reading it.

“its a show of support for Andrew Wakefield.” Yes, it’s this as well.

“Are you aware of the utter stupidity of referring to this blog as â€˜anti-parent/childrenâ€™ when I am a parent who has three children?” Not stupid at all. I’ve seen the attacks on parents with damaged children on this blog and it’s a disgrace.

“but in the UK autism community, Wakefield in reality gets very little support. ” That’s 9503 signatures now based mainly on word of mouth. There are lots of professionals and doctors signatures on there as well. The National Autism Association supports him too.

“Internationally, its even less.” What were all those thousands of flowers from America doing outside the GMC building then? And those boards full of messages? You might not like it, but thatâ€™s the way it is.

One last thing – why are all those children ill? Not just with autism, but serious medical conditions. Why won’t the government investigate them properly? I look forward to your clever reasoning with alacrity.
Joseph
July 18th, 2007
14:17:07

Just out of curiosity, how are the signatures being collected? Doesn’t look like there’s a form on that website. Are duplicates checked? I know that when Kev collects signatures he at least checks for duplicate IPs, and on occasion has caught some jokers (e.g. Nanstiel) trying to pass themselves as Rain Man or something of the sort.

It’s also like comparing apples to oranges. When Kev has collected signatures it’s not because of a highly publicised news story that appeared in several prominent newspapers. All the publicity in those cases comes from one or a few blog posts. Under these circumstances, 9,000 is really not that much, considering the signatures probably come not only from the UK but also the US and other countries. In any case, it’s 9,000 people who either ignore what Andrew Wakefiled did, are in denial about it, or don’t give a crap about scientific ethics.
Joseph
July 18th, 2007
15:01:41

Yep, I just tested it. Go to the last page in the signature list and you will find I signed as Duplicate Number1 and Duplicate Number2.
Andy Hunter
July 18th, 2007
15:07:07

“ALL of the anonymous entries are identifiable by those of us monitoring the petition as ALL petitioners (whether anonymous or not) are required to provide their email address, which is visible to us but is not visible publicly. These will be made available and visible to the GMC panel (under the guidelines of the site providers) when the petition is presented to them. At this stage ALL entries will be identifiable as unique. Also note that many people have signed on behalf of entire families and in some instances entire companies ”

http://www.autismvox.com/petit.....u-believe/

Sorry folks – try as you might to belittle the numbers….
Andy Hunter
July 18th, 2007
15:13:49

Hmmm….my last two posts haven’t appeared. Am I being censored now?
curesRus
July 18th, 2007
16:32:24

Some of the siggies on tha petition are from those PROTESTING the petitiion itself. I saw a couple of “ANONs” who wrote their objections about the petition in the comment box.

As for popularity in numbers (among the masses), I hear Manson gets more fan mail annually than any other prisoner in the US.
Nigel Thomas
July 18th, 2007
19:11:15

Any duplications are checked and removed regularly. Your spotting irregularities is very useful, so thank you.

Interesting statistic about Manson. Equally as useful, did you know that Father Christmas receives more letters at Christmas time than any other fictional character?
curesRus
July 18th, 2007
19:58:15

You’re right Nigel, that’s a better comparison because the foundation of Waker’s premise (and paper) is utter fiction. Thank-you!
Nigel Thomas
July 18th, 2007
20:05:41

Ah, you misunderstand me curesRus. I disagree with you, as do many others. Your comparison was Reductio Ad Absurdum.
curesRus
July 18th, 2007
20:51:42

Yes, Nigel, I am aware that Wakers is winning the popularity contest. That’s precisely my point. The popular view in this case does not equate to the scientific truth. Moverever, no one is trying to prevent anyone from helping kids with issues. What’s actually absurd is your statement here:
â€they may be struck-off the medical register for daring to investigate why these children are so ill, which no-one else has been prepared to doâ€

They’re not going to be “struck-off” for investigating; I didn’t see that in the list of charges.

For what it’s worth, I think you’re a good brother, but you’re seriously misled. Did you read what Bustin had to say in the very-recent court case? Did you read Chadwick’s testimony? They “dared” to investigate as well.
Nigel Thomas
July 18th, 2007
21:07:12

Thanks for saying that CuresRus – I’m trying to be.

I think the colonoscopies etc are on the list of charges. The petition honestly isn’t about a popularity contest, and it’s not just about Dr Wakefield. My brothers are seriously ill. Terry’s in constant pain. It’s not right, and the Department of Health should do more to investigate why so many children are ill. They should take these children and do open and proper tests to find out the cause of what’s wrong and publish the results for the world to see (hopefully then finding something that can help them). Whoever’s right in all this, until more independent research is done a lot of people are going to remain unconvinced.

All the best,

Nigel.
Joan Campbell
July 18th, 2007
22:12:32

Nigel Thomas speaks only the truth and that is from first hand experience.

I have read thousands of articles and blogs about this subject and I am still shocked that people are still wanting to ignore the fact that adverse reactions can happen from vaccines. No vaccine is 100 percent safe, if they were 100 percent safe â€œWhy do we have The Vaccine Damage Payment Unit in Britainâ€.

The evidence and proof we need to win in court is staring us in the face, itâ€™s the children. Itâ€™s a lonely world for the children and an equally lonely world for the parents and siblings. With our childâ€™s legal aid having been cancelled by the UK Legal Services Commission we feel cheated yet again. It is diabolical that our son has not ever had the chance to be examined for brain damage and adverse effects from the MMR vaccine. The drug companies claim that the MMR vaccine is safe and does not cause autism, IBD, epilepsy, deafness, arthritis and worst of all death, yet Merck and Co.â€™s own material information sheets list most of these reactions. We feel that the original trials carried out on the vaccine were not adequate enough and many learned men have agreed that the time span of three weeks following the injection is just not long enough.

Don’t forget these same companies are also making profit on the vaccine damaged children who are been prescribed Ritelin and anti depressants etc. First they cause the problem and then make more money trying to solve the problem which results in more damaged children and adults. Who do these people think they are, that they can destroy lives. I would urge any parent against using prescribed drugs for their children’s behaviour and rather look at their diet and mineral supplements.
The pharmaceutical companies can well afford to compensate families who are telling the truth and by doing so the taxpayer will not have to fork out vast amounts of money to pay for services. Itâ€™s pathetic that the multi-billion pound companies are in fact harming a larger percentage of our children and getting away with it. While the ordinary decent working person is paying for their mistakes.

The last eleven plus years have taught us a lot about compassion and searching for the truth. We are here to care, love and to teach the children, as they are the innocent ones. If it turns out that money is more important than life, then it will be a very sorry state of affairs. Fortunately most of the time, my son is a loving, smiley, happy child but as we have seen that can always change as he gets older and more frustrated at not being able to get his needs across. Sometimes we wonder how our family has stayed together. We have had to at times work very hard.

We are reminded every day that our son is autistic, and every day we feel guilty. We allowed his system to be overloaded with an unsafe vaccine when he was just a small child. His little body was only just starting to develop. A consent form was signed, believing and trusting in the system. Now we listen to him trying to participate when we are saying our prayers at night. Dr Wakefield is a great doctor and I am proud to know him.
HN
July 18th, 2007
22:27:43

Okay, Joan Campbell… YOU tell us what scientific studies show that the present MMR is causing all these problems!

Give us the paper that are published and indexed as real scientific journals that show the MMR is causing autism. Show where they repudiate all the large studies in several countries covering hundreds of thousands of children that show no link between the MMR and autism.

While you are at it… explain why the MMR that was approved for use in the USA in 1971, only seemed to start causing problems in the UK a full twenty years after it was developed.

Don’t give a random little graph that Nigel posted. Give me real verifiable scientific proof.

Or at the very least, a link to the paper(s) that replicated Wakefield’s “research”.

I also want you and Nigel to compare the risks involved in getting the MMR versus getting the actual disease. So how is the MMR more dangerous than getting measles? How is the MMR more dangerous than getting mumps? And finally how is the MMR more dangerous than rubella? For the last one you might want to wander over to this site: http://www.sense.org.uk/
Joseph
July 18th, 2007
22:38:48

To sum up Joan Campbell’s argument: Vaccines have adverse reactions sometimes, therefore they cause autism. That’s the gist of it.

“Fortunately most of the time, my son is a loving, smiley, happy child but as we have seen that can always change as he gets older and more frustrated at not being able to get his needs across.”

He’ll be frustrated to have parents who are insisting on fixing him. Trust me on that one.
Sally Beck
July 18th, 2007
23:03:03

Just to throw this into the mix. As a journalist checking this shambles since 1998. It’s interesting that the first two facts thrown at me by government didn’t stand up. The first was that MMR has eradicated measles. Check the ONS figures back to 1890 and you’ll see that the measles problem was solving itself nicely without intervention. The graph had virtually flatlined before any medical intervention, meaning that the single measles jab and the MMR had very little to do with the reduction in deaths. Plot a graph logarithmically and you’ll see that deaths from measles would have ceased quite naturally this year. To put deaths from measles into perspective, the year the MMR was introduced there were 16 deaths. Deaths from asthma currently stand at around 1500 annually…

When the medical profession disected Wakefield’s peer reviewed 1998 study, in a newsletter titled ‘problems in pharmacology’ (monthly newsletter to GPs, interestingly titled) they concluded that they could neither prove nor refute the findings. They felt this was enough to recommend continued use of the MMR. I wonder why they didn’t recommend further research so that they could conclusively prove or refute?

In the chronology of the affair I’ve been noticing that newspapers have continually forgotten to list that the MMR jab was withdrawn here – as it was in Canada and Japan – because the cheap version they introduced was causing encephalitis and meningitis. All the children in Wakefield’s study had received this jab with the Urabe strain of mumps.

The children who’ve allegedly died from measles: So far we have no names, only newspaper reports. What do we really know about these kids? Do we know whether they actually existed – if so, someone put me in touch with a parent so I can interview them. Do we know whether their immune systems were compromised in some way? Do we know whether they were taking immunosuppresant drugs? We know very little about them. What we know after centuries of catching measles is that healthy children do not die of measles. I suspect most of the authors here over 40 have all had measles. I know I certainly have and I don’t seem to be impaired in any way – even at this late hour.

What we can conclude is that we are not being given the full picture. Nothing here is transparent and until the facts from both sides are laid out on the table, we really won’t know. I’m looking forward to following the GMC hearing.
HN
July 18th, 2007
23:13:23

I really tire of the folks who come and post “MMR/thimerosal/germs cause autism… and the reason is because I said so. So there!”

Not one link to real research. And for some reason the public health sectors of several countries, scientists in several international universities, medical professionals on several continents, the World Health Organization, and even the parents who started http://www.pkids.org are all in some kind of conspiracy these few “lone maverick scientists”.

I’m not buying that for a moment. Especially after seeing the photo of the NAA headquarters.
Raymond Gallup
July 18th, 2007
23:46:45

“This case will be medicine’s Watergate. The truth will come out in the end.”

http://news.independent.co.uk/.....776140.ece

MMR scare doctor ‘paid children Â£5 for blood samples’
By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
Published: 17 July 2007
Nine years after he triggered one of the biggest health scares of recent times, Andrew Wakefield appeared before a disciplinary panel of the General Medical Council accused of paying children Â£5 to take their blood samples at his son’s birthday party.

The doctor who suggested the MMR vaccine might cause autism, leading to a collapse in immunisation levels nationwide, was accused of showing “callous disregard for the distress and pain” he knew or ought to have known the children might suffer as a result. It was one of a litany of charges against Dr Wakefield and his two former colleagues, Professors Simon Murch and John Walker Smith, who are fighting to defend their professional reputations. If found guilty of serious professional misconduct in the case, which is scheduled to last 15 weeks, they could be struck off the medical register.

Outside yesterday’s hearing at the GMC’s office in London, parents of autistic children and campaigners waved placards and cheered as Dr Wakefield and his wife, Carmel, arrived – an unusual reversal when accused doctors are usually jeered or even attacked.

A 10ft banner read: “We’re with Wakefield – crucified for helping sick kids.” Others proclaimed: “For the sake of the children – leave these doctors alone.” Carnations sent by supporters in the US - one for every child with autism – were lined up on the pavement.

David Thrower, from Warrington, who said his 20-year-old son became autistic after having MMR at the age of four, claimed: “This case will be medicine’s Watergate. The truth will come out in the end.”

A group of Royal Colleges and other medical bodies issued a statement yesterday saying that the vaccine “protects children” and that a “large body of scientific evidence” showed no link with autism.

Inside the building, the disciplinary panel was told that the charges focused on ethical aspects of the research and not on whether there is a link between MMR and autism. It heard that Dr Wakefield took blood from his son’s friends without ethics committee approval, in an inappropriate social setting and while offering financial inducement. He was accused of abusing his position of trust and bringing the medical profession into disrepute.

The blood was used in research, ultimately published in The Lancet in March 1998, that suggested there could be a link between inflammatory bowel disease and autism. At a press conference to launch the study at London’s Royal Free Hospital, where the three doctors then worked, Dr Wakefield claimed the triple MMR vaccine might be the cause of both conditions and advised parents to give the vaccines separately.

He is alleged to have given one child a drug that was being tested as a measles vaccine when he did not have the qualifications to do so and had not gained ethical approval. The child was the son of a colleague with whom Dr Wakefield planned to set up a firm called Immunospecifics Biotechnologies to manufacture the vaccine.

It was also alleged that 11 children involved in the research were subjected to a series of invasive tests, including colonoscopies and lumbar punctures. This was contrary to their best clinical interests and Dr Wakefield did not have the “requisite paediatric qualifications” nor had sought the right approval for the tests.

All three doctors deny the charges. The hearing continues.
HN
July 19th, 2007
00:09:05

Raymond, I have given and attended many birthday parties. There have been activities and themes that have been good, and others that were disasters. The swimming parties were usually quite good, but the clown themed one given another parent was a scary for one child who was afraid of clowns. In my own house we played a CD of Beatrice Potter books, only to have a hyperlexic kindergarten aged guest start marching around the house reciting the books word for word (he also knew all the dialog to “Totoro”, along with drawing bits of the movie that looked like he was a professional animator—- a pretty talented autistic kid!).

Never once did it ever occur to me that bringing out needles and drawing blood would be great birthday party activity.

Is this something you find acceptable? Do you find it acceptable that Wakefield laughed and joked about the fainting children?

Whatever happened to that paper published in the Lancet in 1998?
Raymond Gallup
July 19th, 2007
00:33:32

HN

Blood tests are done a lot on adults ….......and children. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness who doesn’t believe in blood tests and donations?

By the way, Vijendra Singh, PhD did blood tests on children with autism and found elevated measles antibody titers in 80% of the children he tested. I suppose he is just as bad as Andrew Wakefield according to all you rocket scientists like Brian Deer.

By the way, Vijendra Singh received an O. Spurgeon English Humanitarian Award in recognition of his contributions to human welfare.[4]
Per…...............
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijendra_K._Singh

What Humanitarian Award did Brian Deer get???????
notmercury
July 19th, 2007
00:41:21

Several other scientists, including Fujinami, say MV antibodies aren’t elevated in autistic children but I thought antibodies are a good thing. Antibodies indicate a protective immune response, don’t they? So if autistic kids have elevated MV antibodies they probably aren’t immune suppressed, right?
HN
July 19th, 2007
01:46:45

You mean I have to be a Jehovah’s Witness to object to kids being literally needled at a birthday party?

Actually, all three of my kids have been part of research programs at the local university. They all involved a review by an ethics board before they even asked parents permission. I also had to read and sign a very long release. None of these programs involved needles. They were mostly behavioral studies where my kids got to play with an evaluator, some toys on a table or look at stripes on a placard to see if that was a good way to test eye-sight… Or the latest one which involved one child being tracked from 6th through 9th grades with interviews of the child and the parent separately (checking for stress, depression, relationships and other common things that happen to adolescents).

I would have been appalled if I went to a kid’s birthday party to find someone wanting to stick the kids with needles. I do not think my feelings on the matter are out of the norm.

Why are you trotting out that Singh Wiki page for again? Why wasn’t he called as a witness for the Cedillos last month? They were desperate for good witnesses… ending up with paid experts who had elevated claims of affiliation (can I claim to be a member of the staff of the university where I will attend a lecture tonight?).

What real evidence do you have to show the measles vaccine causes autism? Where are the numbers that show autism increased in the USA with the immunization initiatives starting in the early 1970s (the MMR was licensed in 1971)?

Remember, I actually WAS a rocket scientist (I analyzed the effect of noise from a missile engine on the aircraft it might have been launched from, it was a concept that did not fly)... So I am going to need more than a Wiki page. Try something with the same quality as this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/si.....ch=1461690
bones
July 19th, 2007
01:48:41

“What Humanitarian Award did Brian Deer get???????”

What the #$%!! does that have to do with anything? Did Wakefield?
Oh…No he just absconded to the U.S., hid for 10 years, and still hasn’t proven shit. Oh…wait…there’s a study in publication. Right?

Do you people have a clue as to how to stay on point? Vijendra Singh…what a joke.
Joseph
July 19th, 2007
02:16:08

“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijendra_K._Singh”

That Wikipedia article is begging for a {{npov}} tag, some {{fact}} tags and various corrections.
HN
July 19th, 2007
04:54:42

I already told Ray he had to update that Wiki page just for the dead links. I figured since he was pushing it, that he must have been one of the authors.
Brian Deer
July 19th, 2007
07:46:54

Methinks if Dr Singh’s reported findings had any relevance to anything [nb, eg, autism isn’t a demylinating “condition”] then they would have been introduced in the Cedillo case. But they weren’t.

Dr Singh, IMO, is just somebody to whom one changes the subject, as an alternative to confronting the collapse of the MMR -> autism claims.
Kev
July 19th, 2007
08:03:46

Joan, Nigel. This position:

“I have read thousands of articles and blogs about this subject and I am still shocked that people are still wanting to ignore the fact that adverse reactions can happen from vaccines. No vaccine is 100 percent safe, if they were 100 percent safe â€œWhy do we have The Vaccine Damage Payment Unit in Britainâ€.”

is totally correct. And for your information, no one on this blog, or any others I’ve read that basically agree with my position, state that any vaccine is 100% safe. No medical procedure is 100% safe.

What you are doing is, however, hypothesising that because no vaccine is safe, that there is evidence that MMR causes autism, and for the purposes of this blog that I run that’s all I’m interested in – do vaccines cause autism? Not, do vaccines have a less than 100% safety record, not, do vaccines have adverse affects but simply, do vaccines cause autism.

The answer, based on all valid science and legal testimony is ‘no’. I would ask you both – have you read the testimony of Nick Chadwick and Stephen Bustin? Between them they dismantle the idea that Wakefield – and anyone else who used the O’Leary lab – ever found measles virus in their family members gut/brain. They also establish that Wakefield knew his Lancet results were false. What do you think about this? What’s your take?
Kev
July 19th, 2007
08:12:36

PLEASE READ:

There’s a lot of comments going straight to Akismet Hell (Akismet is a spam catcher). In order to prevent this and ensure your comments make it through please:

1) No more than 2 links per comment
2) Avoid swear words linked to sexual slang
3) Avoid words that are associated with porn

I’m not saying you need to be puritanical just that you need to avoid patterns that might be interpreted by a piece of software as spam.
Kev
July 19th, 2007
08:44:42

“It was a suggestion. Learn to deal with it in a public blog area.”

This isn’t a public arena, its my blog. You’re here by my good graces. Behave like you would when you’re invited into a persons home or go elsewhere.

“Yes indeed â€“ but not the petition. That hasnâ€™t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.”

Really? You mean aside from The Scotsman, The Guardian, The Sun and being all over the Internet? Come on Andy.

“Both a mothers and a fathers signature are valid.”

I think you’re missing my point Andy. Read what I wrote.

_”â€œThis petition isnâ€™t about supporting sick children,â€ Erâ€¦yes it is. Try reading it.

â€œits a show of support for Andrew Wakefield.â€ Yes, itâ€™s this as well.”_

Hmm, sorry, I don’t buy that. This is about Wakefield. If it was about sick children why has it only be launched on the eve of the GMC hearing?

“Not stupid at all. Iâ€™ve seen the attacks on parents with damaged children on this blog and itâ€™s a disgrace.”

Parents aren’t automatically saints Andy. How about you point me to some specific instances that you find disgraceful?

“Thatâ€™s 9503 signatures now based mainly on word of mouth. There are lots of professionals and doctors signatures on there as well. The National Autism Association supports him too.”

THe NAA are not people I would want supporting any cause of mine. They are proven liars. You still seem to be missing the point that 9000 signatures equates to about 7% of the UK autism/parent community.

” What were all those thousands of flowers from America doing outside the GMC building then? And those boards full of messages? You might not like it, but thatâ€™s the way it is.”

Again, you are missing the point. If you want to say that a percentage of the 9000 sigs are from US people then you have even less you can attribute to the UK, that takes your overall representation back down, not up.

“One last thing â€“ why are all those children ill? Not just with autism, but serious medical conditions. Why wonâ€™t the government investigate them properly? I look forward to your clever reasoning with alacrity.”

I have no idea. I really hope someone conducts some good science into that question. None has been done so far.

However, we need to be clear: good science has considered MMR and there is simply nothing to that hypothesis. We also need to consider the idea that the fact that these kids are autistic and the fact they are ill are two separate things.
Raymond Gallup
July 19th, 2007
12:02:10

Vijendra Singh found abnormally high levels in children with autism that wasn’t found in normal children he tested. Also they children tested positive on myelin basic protein antibodies again not found in normal children indicating an autoimmune disorder in these children.

What is the matter with you people??? Do you like discriminating against our children and families because we have children with disabilities and we are trying to find treatments and/or cure to help them? That we want this autism epidemic to end so more kids and families don’t have to suffer with children that grow up and beat their heads against the wall or bite, kick, scratch, head-butt, pull hair of family members and those people they come in contact with? Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site?

Go ahead and absolve vaccines but this autism epidemic will not stop because people want to put their heads in the ground on this issue. The proof will be all the kids like my son who will be put in group homes, institutions and residential centers. The cost for this will be reflected in taxes in the US and UK and when people turn around and see money coming out of their pocket to pay for all these kids over a lifetime, it won’t be a laughing matter like you people think it is.

So go ahead discrimate against our kids and families. That is what you PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers are best at. In the end you lose because you may think it is funny now but you won’t in the near future when all these kids hit the residential centers, institutions and group homes. Then you can pay out of your pocket for all these kids for their lifetimes.
Andy Hunter
July 19th, 2007
12:22:37

“This isnâ€™t a public arena, its my blog. Youâ€™re here by my good graces. Behave like you would when youâ€™re invited into a persons home or go elsewhere.”

I haven’t been the least bit insulting. Don’t get stroppy. Anyway, why not answer this with your own words, from message 42:

“Secondly, I know that the more pissed Brad is, the more I have got under his skin and said something he really didnâ€™t want people to know. I like that :o)”

“Really? You mean aside from The Scotsman, The Guardian, The Sun and being all over the Internet? Come on Andy.”

Oh I see…and there’s been a direct link to the petition has there?! In any of those? No?! Come on Kev!

“Hmm, sorry, I donâ€™t buy that. This is about Wakefield. If it was about sick children why has it only be launched on the eve of the GMC hearing?”

Whether you “buy it” or not is irrelevant. I would guess that a time of such publicity would be a good time to launch a petition related to this…seems common sense to me.

“Parents arenâ€™t automatically saints Andy. How about you point me to some specific instances that you find disgraceful?”

Of course they’re not saints, and I never implied that they were. As for those instances why not take a moment to read through some of the messages around here. We both know they’re there.

“THe NAA are not people I would want supporting any cause of mine.”

Alas, I imagine the feeling is mutual.

“Again, you are missing the point. If you want to say that a percentage of the 9000 sigs are from US people then you have even less you can attribute to the UK, that takes your overall representation back down, not up.”

No, you’re missing my point. You said that there was no support for Wakefield outside of the U.K. I pointed out the flowers and messages etc sent from America. You can use statistics to attack 9000 or whatever it is all you like. Still a hell of a lot of support mate.

“I have no idea. I really hope someone conducts some good science into that question. None has been done so far”

Glad we agree on this.

“However, we need to be clear: good science has considered MMR and there is simply nothing to that hypothesis. ”

Aah…we disagree again. Not good enough studies. Statistical not medical studies. Proven errors.

“We also need to consider the idea that the fact that these kids are autistic and the fact they are ill are two separate things.”

We won’t know that for sure until there’s been more study.
notmercury
July 19th, 2007
12:55:25

Ah, now there’s the True-Grit Gallup we’ve all come to enjoy. Shooting from the hip – “You people” and “PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers” – great stuff.

So Ray, how exactly does it help our children when people cling to ideas like anti-MBP antibodies and autoimmune destruction of myelin triggered by MMR? Singh’s work is deeply flawed. The antibodies he reported had a slight affinity for human MBP but they aren’t specific to human MBP. We know this because other scientists took the time to do it right.

There may just be an immune mediated process involving a myelin associated protein or something that also recognizes measles hemagglutinin protein but research doesn’t move forward by accepting the conclusions of one man.

btw, I suspect that Singh wasn’t called on to testify at Cedillo hearing because he strongly disagrees with the notion of thimerosal causing or contributing to autism.
Shinga
July 19th, 2007
12:59:08

Not all of them, but many of the “doctors and other health professionals” who have signed that petition are involved with promoting DAN! protocols or similar. Some of them even have the chutzpah to advertise their services etc. on the petition – classy.

And, no. I’ve run several samples on that petition and the anonymous and duplications account for between 30-50%. For examples of duplication, look at

http://www.ipetitions.com/peti.....s-176.html

and then replace those numbers with 179 and 182

I’m trying to get round Askimet as Kev requested…
Margaret Romao Toigo
July 19th, 2007
13:29:43

So the folks who talk about “damaged” children, how families “suffer,” and that the cost of group homes and institutions will be reflected in taxes, while referring to their critics as “PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers” are now crying “discrimination?”

Are these the same people who think a birthday party is an appropriate setting for the collection of blood samples from children? The same people who think that children fainting and vomiting is humorous?

Unbelievable!
Kev
July 19th, 2007
13:29:58

“I havenâ€™t been the least bit insulting. Donâ€™t get stroppy. Anyway, why not answer this with your own words, from message 42:”

I didn’t say you’d been insulting, I told you to behave. So behave.

“Oh I seeâ€¦and thereâ€™s been a direct link to the petition has there?! In any of those? No?! Come on Kev!”

Direct link? Come on Andy, why are being so silly? You said: “but not the petition. That hasnâ€™t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.â€”

I just pointed out to you that you are wrong.

“Whether you â€œbuy itâ€ or not is irrelevant. I would guess that a time of such publicity would be a good time to launch a petition related to thisâ€¦seems common sense to me.”

Indeed, but again, was not what I was suggesting. I’m suggesting that this is, as you imply, a good PR move for Wakefield.

“Of course theyâ€™re not saints, and I never implied that they were. As for those instances why not take a moment to read through some of the messages around here. We both know theyâ€™re there.”

So point some out to me.

“No, youâ€™re missing my point. You said that there was no support for Wakefield outside of the U.K. I pointed out the flowers and messages etc sent from America. You can use statistics to attack 9000 or whatever it is all you like. Still a hell of a lot of support mate.”

Andy, you need to listen to what’s being said to you. I am not, and never have, claimed that Wakefield has no support outside the UK. What I am saying is that if we have a set amount of signatures (9000 in this case) and we further say that if we expand the entire population to compare to this 9000 then the world % is far, far less than the UK %. Surely that must be obvious.

“Not good enough studies. Statistical not medical studies. Proven errors.”

I’m going to ask you what I asked Joan. Have you read and understood the testimony of Stephen Bustin and Nick Chadwick at the recent Cedillo hearings. I’m afraid that these two pieces of testimony removed any biological plausibility Wakefield ever thought he had.

There are also two medical studies that seem perfectly adequate to me in refuting Wakefield aside from Bustin and Chadwick – Afzal et al and one other I can’t recall. Could you explain to me what the ‘proven errors’ are with Afzal?

“We wonâ€™t know that for sure until thereâ€™s been more study.”

Well, we already know that there are quite a lot of things that are accepted comorbidities of autism – and that autism itself can be a comorbidity. Who even really knows how common these issues you’re referring to actually are? I agree that it needs investigating but I really don’t think that these gastric (and other) issues are really that common.
Kev
July 19th, 2007
13:35:14

“Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site?”

I’m a what now?

Is this part of the promotion from BigPharma Shill?

I’m a parent of an autistic child myself Ray. I own and run this site alone. Are you really so egotistical that you cannot stand the fact that people disagree with you to the point you have to resort to silliness?

Ray – you seem like quite an immature person. What are you raving about and what has it got to do with whether science supports/dosen’t support the idea that vaccines cause autism?
Jon
July 19th, 2007
13:51:24

Raymond Gallop wrote:
“So go ahead discrimate against our kids and families. That is what you PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers are best at.”

A couple of points. Firstly, DAN! doctors – and others associated with the belief that MMR causes autism – very often do use or recommend pharma products themselves (e.g. secretin and EDTA). Admittedly, they use them really badly – these products are completely useless for treating autism, and can be harmful – but they’re still using pharmaceuticals…

Secondly, Wakefield is accused of unethical research on children. Aside from that bloody party, he allegedly carried out lumbar punctures etc. without proper ethics board approval and against the best interests of the children. In order to avoid discriminating against children on the autistic spectrum, it’s important that they’re given the right to the same level of medical care as other children and the same protection against unethical research practices. It’s therefore completely appropriate that Wakefield is made to answer to the GMC. The idea that doctors would be allowed to perform all kinds of procedures on vulnerable children – without the normal safeguards on medical research – frankly fills me with horror.
Joseph
July 19th, 2007
14:15:43

What is the matter with you people??? Do you like discriminating against our children and families because we have children with disabilities and we are trying to find treatments and/or cure to help them? That we want this autism epidemic to end so more kids and families donâ€™t have to suffer with children that grow up and beat their heads against the wall or bite, kick, scratch, head-butt, pull hair of family members and those people they come in contact with? Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site

First of all, it should be noted that most posters in this thread are parents of autistic children or otherwise disabled children. (I’m guessing Brian is the only one who’s not).

And for Andy, the only vicious attacks I’ve seen against parents here have been from Brand Handley, e.g. indicating he’d like to put his boot through Kev’s eye socket or something of the sort.

Now, the conspiracy stuff is totally ridiculous. Don’t you see how it doesn’t help your argument at all?
Andy Hunter
July 19th, 2007
15:08:34

“I didnâ€™t say youâ€™d been insulting, I told you to behave. So behave.”

Naturally!

“Direct link? Come on Andy, why are being so silly? You said: â€œbut not the petition. That hasnâ€™t been in the papers and television as you are well aware.â€â€

I just pointed out to you that you are wrong.”

I think there’s been a case of misunderstanding here. When I said it hadn’t been in the papers, I meant the actual link to the petition so that people could go to it, not just a passing mention of “a” petition. This was related to your saying that there should be more signatures, and I said there were lots considering etc etc. My apologies for not being clearer – but I don’t think we’re going to end up agreeing on this one my friend.

“So point some out to me.” Sigh…ok, but that’ll have to be later.

“Andy, you need to listen to whatâ€™s being said to you. I am not, and never have, claimed that Wakefield has no support outside the UK. What I am saying is that if we have a set amount of signatures (9000 in this case) and we further say that if we expand the entire population to compare to this 9000 then the world % is far, far less than the UK %. Surely that must be obvious.” I’ve already answered you on this. Of course if you compare the number of signatures on the petition to everyone in the entire world, it’s a small figure! I agree! But considering the amount of publicity it’s had, it seems to me to be a good number. See above on agree to disagree on this, or we’ll be going round and round forever.

“There are also two medical studies that seem perfectly adequate to me in refuting Wakefield aside from Bustin and Chadwick â€“ Afzal et al and one other I canâ€™t recall. Could you explain to me what the â€˜proven errorsâ€™ are with Afzal?” I’ll have a look for the links again and get back to you.

“I agree that it needs investigating but I really donâ€™t think that these gastric (and other) issues are really that common.” You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but seems to me that a lot of the kiddies who are complaining also have gastric illness, so it’s worth looking into – at least for the benefit of disproving a link. At the moment, the numbers and similaritiy of cases are suggestion (I’m not saying conclusive) of a link.

Ref – all this Stormtrooper stuff, I agree it’s probably not that helpful – but should show how deeply upset many parents feel about those who don’t seem interested in their sick children at all, rather just to attack the doctors involved, i.e. Mr Deer. I’d say far from Wakefields tests being unethical on the children, it has been unethical of all the other doctors and department of health to NOT investigate them. From what I’ve seen, the parents are trying to help their children and are being attacked and prevented from doing so at every turn…and no-one else is helping them. Now, whether you agree with the MMR or not, surely you can see their position?

Lastly, Shinga’s comment “And, no. Iâ€™ve run several samples on that petition and the anonymous and duplications account for between 30-50%.” Your statistic is really quite a lot of nonsense. The people running it have already said they go through and remove duplicates regularly, and I didn’t see any on the pages you mentioned. If there are any in there, goodness knows who’s putting them in, no-one who’d want to undermine it of course. If you’re THAT concerned, why not contact the GMC and ask them if what was handed in was properly validated? And stop getting so cross that there are lots of signatures! You can stamp your feet crossly as much as you like, it won’t change anything, and can’t be a productive use of your time.
Shinga
July 19th, 2007
15:45:04

Well, I’m delighted to have triggered an edit to that petition: the duplications were present on those pages as recently as 16 July as anybody with a cache of those pages can see.

It doesn’t bother me that people sign the petition, I’m sure that the GMC are used to the tactics of people who artificially inflate the nos…it does irritate me when people claim a significance that the petition and its nos. cannot support.
Bink
July 19th, 2007
16:18:24

The whole idea of an epetition being important either way surprises me. I learned ten years ago that these things are probably useless, about the same time I realized I shouldn’t forward emails about urban legends. Snopes has a good write up under Inboxer Rebellion for anyone who cares.
Bink
July 19th, 2007
16:24:38

Clarification: Snopes does not mention this particular petition, but has an explanation of how easy it is for computer programs to generate “signatures,” how ad revenue is generated for the site’s owner every time someone clicks to see it or “sign,” etc. etc.
Joseph
July 19th, 2007
16:44:17

That petition website is pretty good at removing bogus entries once they are reported. But clearly they don’t have an automatic detection system. I also noticed that many petitioners are non-parents. From the comments, many seem to be anti-vax persons, homeopaths, and so forth. Not that any of this is relevant to the arguments at hand.
HN
July 19th, 2007
17:05:43

Ray (author of the Vaccine Aliens book) wrote “What is the matter with you people??? Do you like discriminating against our children and families because we have children with disabilities and we are trying to find treatments and/or cure to help them? ....snip..? Do you people normally like to discriminate or are you part of the PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers contingent that set up this site?”

How DARE you say that to a parent of a child with health issues that required him to depend on herd immunity.

The herd immunity that is being compromised by people claiming withOUT any good science that the vaccines cause various ailments. My son could have been killed by pertussis, something he never received a vaccine for because of his seizures. Now because of a very serious heart condition he can be victimized by a host of other diseases (though he does fortunately get a fall influenza vaccine). To see how the herd immunity for measles has caused severe damage read this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t.....055533.ece

How DARE you go on that rant withOUT answering my simple questions with real studies?

How DARE you ignore the obvious ill use of children for monetary gain by a physician UNqualified to work with pediatric patients… and for money from a legal fund using UK citizen taxes?

How DARE you ignore the three dead children in Ireland and the one dead child in the UK due to the Wakefield scaremongering?

How DARE you ignore the several people hospitalized and the four who were deafened by mumps last year in the American Mid-West (I want to use my second link for something else, but you can read about it on the CDC website in a report titled “Update: Multistate Outbreak of Mumps—- United States, January 1—May 2, 2006”, dated May 18, 2006)

How DARE you ignore that measles still causes half a million deaths elsewhere? Is it because they are in a third world country that they should be allowed to ignored? Or that they have HIV/AIDS that they do not deserve the extra protection from measles? This is my last link that I think you should read… http://www.medpagetoday.com/HI.....DS/tb/6190
Stevie
July 19th, 2007
17:06:02

Andy – “Iâ€™d say far from Wakefields tests being unethical on the children, it has been unethical of all the other doctors and department of health to NOT investigate them. From what Iâ€™ve seen, the parents are trying to help their children and are being attacked and prevented from doing so at every turnâ€¦and no-one else is helping them. Now, whether you agree with the MMR or not, surely you can see their position?”

I’d have to disagree there, but with the caveat that I can see why parents would feel that way. Yes, doctors should help autistic children and their parents, but they should do so in an ethical way, with clear and transparent approval, and proceed in the safest possible way. Wakefield failed on these counts. What Wakefield has produced has been a terrible distraction for people wanting to do proper research. If the research had been properly conducted, if the results of the research hadn’t been manipulated then we would have had correct data to help with building a picture of what may cause autism. What we need is better help for those with autism and their families and properly conducted research that would better answer their questions instead of offering false hopes. Wakefield has benefited massively materially from this, but those with autism haven’t, because of the blind alley we’ve been led down. Thanks to Wakefield those working in the field of autism now have to work harder to shake off stigmatisation from his association with the subject and have their research taken seriously. Parents’ anger should be directed at him and not those holding him to task – for failing in his duty of care to his patients.
Ashleigh Anderson
July 19th, 2007
20:19:56

Don’t worry Ray, now you can write another book and create a movie treatment about how the tall, handsome British sociopath led the world around by the nose, is unappreciated, and in the end is taken back to his home planet where he’s hailed as the hero that he truly is. His wife, predictably, stays on earth.

92. The Vaccine Aliens by Ray Gallup
“The Vaccine Aliens” is registered with WGA, West. It involves a father with an autistic son and his friends who stumble on shape-shifting aliens who are trying to destroy mankind. These shape-shifting aliens are working out of a pharmaceutical company that manufactures vaccines and prescription drugs. The father and friends try to get the word out but the aliens want to silence them which leads to a final conflict on Shades of Death Road in New Jersey (an actual location ).
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=.....ent=safari

Ray, don’t forget to accuse Kev of being a shape shifting alien, now.
HN
July 19th, 2007
22:24:05

Oh, Geez, such cheese! Was he channelling David Icke when he wrote that?
Raymond Gallup
July 20th, 2007
00:07:16

Dr. Andrew Wakefield and Dr. Vijendra Singh will be in the medical history books for their accomplishments down the road.

All of you groups like Neurodiversity, Autism Diva and this link can go to pharmaceutical companies and see if they will pay your taxes when they go up to house all the vaccine-damaged (regressive autism) kids in institutions, group homes and residential centers….....lots of luck on getting them to pay your taxes. It will happen in 5-10 years so go ahead and laugh.

So kiss up to the vaccine companies but make sure you are getting some money back from them because you will need it in the future to pay your tax bill.

So all you people, keep on shilling for the vaccine companies…..and don’t forget to collect your blood money.
Raymond Gallup
July 20th, 2007
00:16:22

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Di.....G_10026664

Disappointed that the UK government recognizes vaccine damage causing disabled?????

Ahhhhh!
Ashleigh Anderson
July 20th, 2007
00:21:04

Ray, Buck up. Andy’s on the TV!
http://www.channel4.com/player.....howId=7734
See, you can use that clip to sell your next movie treatment. All PR is good PR for a handsome man like our Andy. I can just see our Andy in a space suit! http://www.yesterland.com/imag.....aceman.jpg
Sell your movie and you’ll be rich, Ray! Just like Andy!
Joseph
July 20th, 2007
00:25:20

When the world recognizes that shape-shifting aliens and the Illuminati have infiltrated all areas of society in order to control the human population, then Dr. Andrew Wakefield and Dr. Vijendra Singh will have been recognized in the medical history books for their accomplishments.

Sure, I buy that.
HN
July 20th, 2007
00:50:07

Big deal… The USA has the same thing:
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

Exactly how many payments have been made to families with autism?

Also respond this:
How DARE you ignore that measles still causes half a million deaths elsewhere? Is it because they are in a third world country that they should be allowed to ignored? Or that they have HIV/AIDS that they do not deserve the extra protection from measles? This is my last link that I think you should readâ€¦ http://www.medpagetoday.com/HI.....DS/tb/6190
HN
July 20th, 2007
01:15:38

Ray, why didn’t Singh ask to testify for the Cedillos last month?

Another question: Are you naturally clueless, or is this level of idiocy something you have to work at?
Kev
July 20th, 2007
08:06:10

“Dr. Andrew Wakefield and Dr. Vijendra Singh will be in the medical history books for their accomplishments down the road.”

Of that I have no doubt, but I don’t think it will be in quite the way you imagine.

Did you really write a book about vaccines and aliens? That’s hilarious.

“Disappointed that the UK government recognizes vaccine damage causing disabled?????”

Uh, no…? Why would I/we be?
Do'C
July 20th, 2007
15:31:28

Exactly how many payments have been made to families with autism?

Total Adjudications 1989 – 2007:
298

Dismissals:
298

Compensable:
0

Source
David N. Andrews M. Ed. (Distinction)
July 21st, 2007
11:16:39

Bink: “Frankly I have spent the day halfway wondering if the Mercury Dad post is an elaborate joke or a prank.”

Actually, he is a joke, but he just doesn’t get it yet.
Harold L Doherty
July 21st, 2007
14:03:02

Mercury Dad

I do not subscribe to the mercury/vaccine cause autism theories but I applaud you for standing up to those who would censor discussion of these issues here or elsewhere. As for Dr Wakefield IF some of the charges are substantiated they seem to be very serious.

On the larger issues, I hope to see the current explosion in autism research continue on all fronts, environmental and genetic causation, treatment and applied autism research on interventions. Scientific consensus has certainly not ruled out potential environmental factors to the increasing incidence of autism. In the meantime it is important for all voices to be heard and for issues to be discussed.
Bink
July 21st, 2007
18:10:56

I don’t see how anyone is censoring any discussion.

So, people are sure that this Mercury Dad post is not a hoax, someone trying to misrepresent Handley as the writer? I am serious. I just can’t see how anyone who is the leader of a national organization would write in such way, especially attacking autistic people and the parents of autistic people who are posting here. I keep thinking to myself that I know parents who have done chelation, I know people who do a lot of alternative medicine, hell, one of my favorite people in the world,my cousin, lives in Oregon, too, and is practically the High Priestess of Woo. But I can’t imagine any of these smart, reasonable, interesting people associating with or respecting someone who writes the things “Mercury Dad” has. I think they’d all be horrified to find out that this guy is spewing this kind of stuff. I think it would be helpful if every post of his was immediately followed by a clear explanation of who he is and links to his other postings here. Newbies who come across this board for the first time and are still trying to sort through the facts should understand what is going on here.
Regan
July 21st, 2007
18:37:03

Harold,
Who is being censored, except for the various criteria of Kev’s spam filter as he has stated openly?

Consider that if there was censorship, I think that it’s fair to assume that you would not have even read Mercury Dad’s post/rant because it would have been…well, censored. Ditto Mr. Gallup with the “PharmaMafia SS Stormtroopers”, which is name-calling on a grand scale.

Scientific consensus is one thing, but populist consensus is another—”hey everyone, let’s come over here and have a vote on evolution (or germs or whether the earth or the sun is the one that revolves around the other)”. It’s important for all voices to be heard until such time that it stops making sense because of the preponderance of evidence is not on their side or because the particular spokesman is unqualified to be making the assertions by lack of competency on the question.

Coming back to Kev’s original post, who do I listen to, the first hand testimony from world experts of the public Omnibus hearing or the NAA double-plus-goodspeak emails and petitions? After that past gaffe with confusing the John Merck Foundation with Merck, the pharmaceutical company and various similar pieces of disinformation, smear and innuendo, if these are not plain lies they certainly suggest a shortfall in fact-checking. They also don’t seem particularly concerned with the censorship or courtesy question regarding evidence that does not correspond with the already determined points of view.
Harold L Doherty
July 22nd, 2007
00:05:24

notmercury I don’t really know what you are talking about to be honest. I applauded the poster for having the fortitude to post on this forum where dissent is discouraged. That is all. Your comment actually reinforces my point.
HN
July 22nd, 2007
01:04:52

I don’t think dissent is actually discouraged, it is more that actual evidence is encouraged.

Ray Gallup was asked for actual evidence, he was told his Wiki page was insufficient… and he was told that paying kids for blood at a birthday party is not normal, and that laughing about children fainting and vomiting is not funny.

The response to that was that I was asked if I was “a Jehovah’s Witness”, and the rest of us were accused of being “Pharmamafia SS Stormtroopers”.

So I got angry, and challenged him. I asked a few angry questions, but also some very important questions… Like why is it that the MMR licensed in the USA in 1971 only became a problem in the UK over twenty years since it was developed? And what about the HIV children in Africa who are much more susceptible to measles, and need repeated vaccination?

He has not answered any of those questions.

By your definition is asking questions a way to discourage dissent?
Steve D
July 22nd, 2007
04:57:57

In the last two or three weeks,Harold, you have developed the habit of peppering me with unprovoked insults on my blog as well. When I attempted to engage you in discussion on your own blog, you did not allow my last two comments to appear. You returned instead to my blog and stated that
“I did not publish your follow up which added nothing informative to the discussion.”
http://onedadsopinion.blogspot.....t-usd.html

I also requested – twice – that we converse via email in an effort to have a rational discussion on the issues.

So, you feel free to use other people’s unmoderated blogs as a place to drop in and lob a few challenges, you moderate out any comments on your own blog which may cause you to defend any one of your positions, you avoid genuine invitations to discuss the issues, and then you show up here and make the comments that “I applaud you for standing up to those who would censor discussion of these issues…” and “...this forum where dissent is discouraged”? Ummm … wow.

For anyone who may care to read the link above, please also note the following. Harold was so incensed at my use of the term “deficit model” – and that a break from that viewpoint may be of value as research moves forward – he actually did a post on his own site demeaning my comments on the issue. That’s fine – it is his prerogative to do so. However, he – as follows from his generally prejudicial view of Neurodiversity – assumed by my use of the term “deficit model” that I meant that there are no deficits related to autism. How chagrined he must have felt – after accusing me of “pseudo-intellectual games” after my attempt to explain this point to him – when he realized that the “deficit model” is simply a behaviorists’ term to describe a way of analyzing behaviors related to autism. The point I was making in my post is that one speaker was recommending a shift from”deficit model” to “dynamic systems model” in trying to understand how best to support and educate autistic individuals.
Since you never made any further comments on my blog or yours, Mr. Doherty, I assume that NOW you get it.

To summarize, Mr. Doherty, I’d like to restate something you said to me in the above linked post’s comments and see how you would like to respond:
“As to the deficit concept, duck if you wish to avoid dealing with what you chose to publish.”
Joseph
July 22nd, 2007
15:46:10

Exactly. I was also going to point out that a big example of blog censorship is Harold’s own blog, where critical but otherwise respectful messages allegedly just do not appear.

For another example, see Kirby’s blog. In my experience, any message that clearly refutes a post by David Kirby is simply not approved, no matter how innocuous the language.I’m not sure how they run things at HuffingtonPost, but that’s clearly appalling.

When Generation Rescue had a blog (which they gave up and was subsequently squatted by spammers) I know for a fact that they deleted messages from there without a trace or explanation.

Frankly, there’s a pattern of intellectual dishonesty that can clearly be observed in people with a certain mindset in these debates.
jypsy
July 23rd, 2007
15:22:00

“Exactly. I was also going to point out that a big example of blog censorship is Haroldâ€™s own blog, where critical but otherwise respectful messages allegedly just do not appear.”

ditto. And not just his blog, he runs his lists (ones he owns and/or moderates) the same way. New Brunswick is welcome to his POV but not to anyone else’s is he can help it. They get the Observer’s “1 in 58” article (from HD) – but not the real comments/retractions from Dr Scott et al. (from me).
Raymond Gallup
July 24th, 2007
03:06:54
Any takers who want to take the BIG GULP for some $$$$$$??????

http://www.vaclib.org/links/jockslinks.htm#press

NOTE: During the time the original Press Release was offered for 5-1/2 years, only 14 inquires from doctors was received and no one accepted the challenge.
On August 1, 2006, the offer was increased to $75,000 and is posted at http://www.spontaneouscreation.....eOffer.htm
As of June 1, 2007 the offer increased to $80,000 and will climb $5,000 per month. Read more below.
- * * PRESS RELEASE * * *
  April 25, 2007
  Ojai, CA —On January 29, 2001, Jock Doubleday offered $20,000 to the first U.S.-licensed medical doctor or pharmaceutical company CEO to publicly drink a mixture of standard vaccine additive ingredients:
http://www.mercola.com/2001/fe....._offer.htm

The offer had no takers.

On August 1, 2006, Doubleday increased the $20,000 offer to $75,000:

http://www.vaclib.org/links/jockslinks.htm#press

The new offer had no takers.

Therefore .

. . as of June 1, 2007, the $75,000 offer will increase to $80,000;
as of July 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $85,000;
as of August 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $90,000;
as of September 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $95,000;
as of October 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $100,000;
as of November 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $105,000;
as of December 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $110,000;
as of January 1, 2008, the offer will increase to $115,000 . . . etc.

The offer will increase $5,000 per month, in perpetuity, until an M.D. or pharmaceutical company CEO, or any of the 14 relevant members of the ACIP (see below), agree to drink a body-weight calibrated dose of the poisonous vaccine additives that M.D.s routinely inject into children in the name of health.

This offer, dated April 25, 2007, has no expiration date unless superceded by a similar offer of higher remuneration.

In health,

Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501©3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html
Kev
July 24th, 2007
18:49:30

I talked about that last year Ray – upshot was that someone already did and far, far exceeded Doubledays silly offer. No autism, no death.
HN
July 25th, 2007
01:24:00

Ray, is this your response to my questions? When will you answer them? Here they are again: Like why is it that the MMR licensed in the USA in 1971 only became a problem in the UK over twenty years since it was developed? And what about the HIV children in Africa who are much more susceptible to measles, and need repeated vaccination?

What does the Jock Doubleday challenge on thimerosal have to do with the MMR?

You do know that the MMR has never contained thimerosal? Plus, Jock has so many steps and procedures it is a bogus challenge. He has no intention of ever accepting any participants. He is just being a blowhard:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/.....ebirth.htm

Did you check out the contract? Check it out here:
http://www.spontaneouscreation.....tPartA.htm

It requires a psychiatric evaluation, “Participant agrees to submit, within 45 (forty-five) days of Participant’s signing of the Agreement, documents comprising a verifiable written history of all psychological counseling and therapy (the “Mental Health Records”). “, “Participant agrees to take a written open-book examination (the “Basic Exam”) before becoming eligible to receive Part B of the Agreement. The Basic Exam will be sent by Coordinator to Participant by email within 30 (thirty) days of Participant’s email acknowledgement of receipt of Part A of the Agreement, as well as Participant’s signing of Part A of the Agreement and faxing of signed Part A of the Agreement to Coordinator. The Basic Exam will consist of 10 questions regarding basic vaccination theory and practice.”, AND the participant must buy five books:
1) Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective? by Neil Z. Miller;
2) Immunization: The Reality Behind the Myth, by Walene James;
3) Vaccination, Social Violence and Criminality: The Medical Assault on the American Brain, by Harris L. Coulter;
4) The Sanctity of Human Blood: Vaccination Is Not Immunization, by Tim O’Shea;
5) What Every Parent Should Know About Childhood Immunization, by Jamie Murphy…..
....and on, and on, and on…

It is a bogus challenge.

So, Ray, any time table set to answer my questions on the MMR? Did you know that most Americans who are in their late-thirties and younger have received the MMR at least once? Let’s see… this is 2007, it was licensed in 1971… so it has been around for 36 years.
Ashleigh Anderson
July 25th, 2007
01:36:30

Ray, you’re embarassing yourself here, man. Just show them the lab results you have from the O’Leary lab proving that your son has measles in his intestines. Did you contact the Omnibus petitioners steering committee offering yourself as an expert witness in MMR causation?
anonimouse
July 25th, 2007
05:08:50

I do love all the little anti-vaccine sock puppets that came out of the woodwork for this blog entry. It makes my heart dance and skip a beat to know that there are parents out there that desperately want to ensure that (other) kids get sick.

Now if only we could get a comment from one of the REAL heavy hitters…I wonder if the Geiers, Jeff “Exorcist” Bradstreet or the Wake-man himself have a few free minutes. Of course, they might too busy fleecing the unsuspecting.
burntcherry
July 25th, 2007
05:43:56

Ray:

Jock’s challenge is a bogus challenge, as HN says. Just like the others from McCandless and Buttar you can read about here:
http://burntcherry.blogspot.com/
HN
July 25th, 2007
05:48:47

Helloooooo? Ray, are you there? What does Jock’s bogus challenge have to do with the 36 year old MMR which never, ever… not ever contained thimerosal?

Are you ever going to answer my questions?

Where is the actual, dare I say it… science?
Paul Offit, MD
July 29th, 2007
13:34:35

I will be taking this challenge.

Paul Offit, MD
offit@email.chop.edu

My challenge was issued in the British Medical Journal:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi.....12-d#93670
Pro-vaccinators simply refuse to listen to victims, such as myself and refer
to ludicrous statistical studies that are easily pulled to bits in
commentaries like this one: http://www.whale.to/a/branell.html or
http://66.70.140.217/a/branell.html
They engage in endless theoretical debates at no personal risk. It is for
this reason that I have turned to the courts:
http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Artic.....e=10056591
The courts will decide that in a legal sense the evidence that vaccines
cause autism is overwhelming, as Clifford Miller has pointed out in his
article on the unreliability of scientific papers as evidence:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi.....02-c#52948
But even then there will be a problem, as long as talk is cheap and the
pro-vaccinators risk nothing in asserting that vaccines are harmless.
They have put the lives of our children on the line. It is time for them to
put their own lives on the line. I challenge them to let themselves be
vaccinated. If they really believe in their studies and really think that
vaccines are harmless and that I and all the other victims are victims only
of our own imaginations, they should let me vaccinate them with all the
childhood vaccines, the dose being adjusted to their body weights, assuming
an average weight at vaccination of 5 kilos. They would then be exposed to
the same risks as the infants they vaccinate. I have already made this offer
to various people on a number of occasions, most recently in the BMJ
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi.....373/1134/a and had no takers.
Nobody in the world seems willing to do it. Here is another challenge: Paul
Offit says that children could tolerate 10,000 vaccines. Is anybody willing
to do this, including Offit himself? Dr Salisbury is more modest: 1,000
vaccines are no problem at all. Here is my third challenge: is anyone
willing to subject themselves to a thousand jabs, including Salisbury
himself?
Is anybody in the world willing to accept any or all of these three vaccine
challenges? Madsen? Smeeth? Adam Jacobs? Brian Deer? Anders Hviid? Brent
Taylor? Anyone? Anyone at all? After all, there’s no danger is there? It’s
safe, isn’t it? You want to set a good example don’t you? You want to allay
our suspicions and put our fears to rest, don’t you? Here is your
opportunity! Let us all gather at the offices of the BMJ. You can then roll
up your sleeves and let’s see what happens to you after a few jabs.
You can mail me at alandavidrees@hotmail.com
Alan Rees
Regan
July 29th, 2007
14:04:33

Interesting.
“Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition” is such a strange turn of phrase that I wondered what would happen if I punched it into google.

I didn’t get anything cross-linking with Paul Offit, but I did get these 3 hits:

“Andrew Wakefield is unjustly going through a Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition because he dared to help families and their children with regressive autism…”
Raymond Gallup July 20, 2007
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opi.....do1904.xml

“The General Medical Council (GMC) is conducting nothing more and nothing less than a Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition on Dr. Wakefield, Professor Smith and Professor Murch…”
Raymond Gallup, July 22, 2007
http://autism.about.com/b/a/257890.htm

“The GMC is conducting a vendetta toward Dr. Andrew Wakefield with their Salem Witch Trial/Spanish Inquisition…”
Raymond Gallup
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t.....080353.ece

I think that our legs are being pulled here.
Kev
July 29th, 2007
14:31:33

Regan – the person continually posting under the name of Paul Offit is apparently one Alan Rees. When he has the balls to post under his own name and when those posts are not reposts of material already posted and discussed I’ll stop deleting his comments.

I’ve also emailed him to tell him this and to warn him any more stupidity results in a ban.
Regan
July 29th, 2007
14:48:39

Kev,
Thanks for the correction.
I don’t see eye to eye with Mr. Gallup, but also don’t want to tar the wrong person with the wrong brush.
Howdy Doody
July 29th, 2007
21:12:44

It is Howdy Doody time!!

Howdy Doody
howdydoody@aol.com
Kev
July 29th, 2007
21:32:46

I was wrong – its Ray Gallup – what an ass. Ray – grow up, cut it out or I’ll ban you.
Joe Harris
July 29th, 2007
22:32:43

You never answer questions you just spout the pharma line. You are really not
very smart or you are paid to defend thimerosal and keep us busy and lie to other people. You
really need to think of judgement day and how you sold these little children out and what the
god of the jews the lord jesus will do to you for the damage done by people like you. One
more time looking for an answer if the MSDS sheet says pregnant women should not be
exposed to the product thimerosal. Then maybe you can tell me how the CDC recomends
two flu vacc. containing 25 micro grams each for preg. women ? ? ? ? ? are you really this stupid ?
Kev
July 29th, 2007
22:44:49

Joe –
1) Ask me a question and I’ll answer it. You might not like the answer but…c’est la vie

2) I’m an atheist. I think your talk of judgement day is juvenile and pitiable.

3) Keep this in context. The MSDS is irrelevant when it comes to an unbelievably simple question: does thiomersal cause autism? Does the MMR cause autism? Does a combination of both cause autism? The answer based on the best available science is ‘no’.

Now, I’ll ask you: how will you live with yourself when it emerges (as it is doing already) that the vaccine hypothesis being brought up time and time again solely to support yours – and people like you – views that vaccines are evil is deflecting money away from research, education and help for autistic children and adults.

As far as I’m concerned Joe your utter stupidity is matched only by your utter cruelty and concious neglect. You care nothing for autistic people. What you care about is your ridiculous excuse for a cause.
Joe Harris
July 29th, 2007
23:05:10

How does the old saying go those who do not learn from
history end up repeating it. This document is real from
pubMed
This is an excerpt

The resistance
to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new
medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew
old and disappeared from the scene. Meanwhile, the cause having been
identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared,

AKA (autism)
( add ) ( adhd ) ( Speach delay ) Remember verstraiten earler findings before they were destroyed out of the VSD

And remember this is vacineal mercury not injested
evidentally the opponents and sceptics were replaced
more of the same

The article
Soc Hist Med. 1997 Aug;10(2):291-304. Related Articles, Links

The rise and fall of pink disease.

Dally A.

Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London.

This paper explores the social and medical history and context of pink
disease (acrodynia), a serious disease of infants and young children
that baffled the medical world during the first half of the twentieth
century until it was shown to be caused by mercury poisoning. In the
English-speaking world the commonest source of the mercury was teething
powders, which were widely available and advertised with increasing
sophistication. Efforts to control them (such as the BMJ’s campaign against
‘Secret Remedies’) were as yet unsuccessful. The article discusses the
social conditions that influenced the existence and recognition of pink
disease, the delay in finding its cause, the way in which it was
explained as a virus infection or nutritional deficiency and why it seldom
occurred outside the teething period. It discusses both professional and
lay attitudes to health and diseases during the early twentieth century
and provides a model of how the disease developed in a specific social
setting and how the medical profession attempted to deal with it within
the limitations of contemporary professional thought. The resistance
to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new
medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew
old and disappeared from the scene. Meanwhile, the cause having been
identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared, but its consequences
emerged much later, in an unexpected quarter, as a cause of male
infertility.

Publication Types:
Historical Article

PMID: 11619497 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE
Joe Harris
July 29th, 2007
23:34:00

Hey kev when your right your right
I will concede this what my child has is not autism.
Remember that name was made up by leo kanner
decribing something of a behavior not seen
before. So like you said does thiomersal cause autism? Does the MMR cause autism? Does a combination of both cause autism? No you are right but the mercury
in thimerosal causes mercury poisoning when children
cannot excrete. And the MMR causes bowel disorders
and kev you are wrong on the science to I will match
your science any day but only on a level and fair
playing field. But my friend you will lose this dad
knows the science of autism
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
00:34:31

kev Im sorry you do not believe in god. Yahwah is real and
some day will judge all the people whos greed wiped out
a generation of boys and girls and lets not pretend its to save the vaccine program. So people want stop vaccination like they say. They will not remove it the thimerosal
because the numbers would fall to fast remember them
the CDC saying we have a plan in place hence preg.
and children. 6 mos to 5 yrs. are now at risk remember
Cochrane Collaboration stating the inactivated flu vacc.
no evidence it even works so with this I guess they the CDC is just doing what they said we have a plan in place
like I said you do not have a green horn on your hands
I read a lot and I asked god to help me understand this
more and he yahwah did just what he said he would
what you need is to fear god for this is the beginning
of Knowledge aknowlege him and he shall direct thy
path
HN
July 30th, 2007
00:36:52

Joe Harris, why don’t you answer my question… The MMR in question was licensed for use in the USA in 1971 (most Americans who are about 37 years old and younger have had this vaccine at least once), It was approved for use in the UK in 1988. Why is it that it became a problem after about twenty years of use, and only in the UK?
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
01:21:16

HN this post is for you got to take my daughter to drive
be back soon will answer you then
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
03:58:00

HN The answer that I have is that when you get two
mmrs and double the mercury then two yrs later triple the amount of mercury it causes the autoimmune response
and the body can’t fight so it sucombs to the the live
viruses. Sort of a toxic tipping point my son had several
vaccines, in one day One being the mmr, at the injection site a knott the size of a mans fist the next day at the dinner table he had three encephalopathy’s
his little head shivered his eyes were blinking then he was looking dazed as one would feel
like where am I, But that was not the mmr that caused
the knott I think it was the dpt with thimerosal I un like
so called autism experts know that there is no mercury
or thimerosal in the mmr for it would kill the live viruses
For I being a dad of a autistic child some times find my self knowing more than a lot of so called experts
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
04:06:15

Hey Kev, What happened to you we have some un finished busneiss
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
05:24:11

Hello ND’s anybody home cat got your toung
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
05:27:51

Hello NDâ€™s, Anybody at home cat got your tongue
sorry about the bad spelling on the last post
Kev
July 30th, 2007
05:39:22

Sorry Joe, we live in different timezones. I guess the .co.uk on the end of the URL was lost on you.

Right, lets take your, er, ‘points’ in order shall we?

1) Pinks disease does not resemble autism. Mercury poisoning does not resemble autism. Your PubMed cite is meaningless.

2) You say: “Remember that name was made up by leo kanner decribing something of a behavior not seen before”

No Joe, Kanner said it was a condition not reported before. Here’s the quote:

“Since 1938, there have come to our attention a number of children whose condition differs so markedly and uniquely from anything reported so far,”

Here’s an analogy for you Joe. in 2005, a mammal described as ‘new to sciecne’ was discovered. Do you think this mammal sprang fully formed into existence just before it was spotted? Or do you think it simply went undetected and unnamed up to that point?

4) The ‘poor excretors’ line is a poorly supported hypothesis. Please read this for a round up of the ‘poor excretors’ claptrap.

5) Level playing field? What could be more level than this one? I’ll make sure none of your comments get spamtrapped (or release them if they do). Debate away. I’ll look forward to hearing your science.

6) Moving on to your next comment. By Feb 2002, the levels of thiomersal containing vaccines on the open market was at 1.9% – according to what David Kirby describes as the gold standard of autism epidemiology – the CDDS data – the number of autism cases is going up. Since it is demonstrable that thiomersal has all but vanished from all but flu vaccines and yet autism cases are still going up, what foundation is there to your claims?

7) Sorry, I don’t subscribe to childish conspiracy theories involving the CDC or your god.

In conclusion I would say that your grasp of the science was, even for the low standards of your general antivax belief system outstandingly poor. I would also say that your god has led you down a course that will hurt autistic people. You and your god deserve each other.
HN
July 30th, 2007
06:17:54

Joe Harris… Could you try the answer in plain English? I did not understand you. Is English a second language for you, like Mr. Alan Rees (he is from Sweden)?

What is this bit about “mercury”. There is no mercury in the MMR. There never has been, ever. You have some claims, but no evidence.

The vaccine adopted in the UK is the one licensed in the USA in 1971. There does not seem to have been a big rise in autism in the USA starting in the early 1970s. If you have actual data to the contrary please present it. (use links that can be resolved to PubMed, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/ ).

The question is why a vaccine that has been in use in the United States of America since 1971 only started to be a problem when it was approved for use in the United Kingdom in 1988.

Now please answer my question with some actual evidence. It is now 11pm on the American West Coast (where I reside… here’s a hint… I live between two municipalities called “Vancouver”). I am going to go to bed now, so I expect that you will have a real answer in the next 12 hours. I did not answer before because I was either at a local art fair or eating dinner… I do not live on the computer. Try to present your answers in understandable English.

Good night.
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
10:01:30

If you can read this and not see the CDC buying the
IOM report you are blind or you are bought, Remember
this was leaked minutes not gotten by FOIA someone
was concerned and leaked the minutes
In excerpt # 2 CDC spokes person Curtis Allen
when asked to see if the contract between the CDC
and IOM contained what two people said was being
orderd not to find causation he stated that it would
only be available in heavly “redacated” or blacked out
format. Don’t want to be mean because you showed me
respect in your last post but this to me means I cannot
trust the CDC you see a very smart scientist said true
science goes toward were the evidence leads not
picking only what you contrive and make up. Take for
example saying this mercury is friendler gentler
kinder mercury these people are not on the same
planet as us for one they were talking about the
unknown factor the two salts mixed mercury and
aluminum the killing factor is 10 x a single heavy
metal is. At the simpsonwood meeting where Rodger
bernier told everybody to consider what they heard
embargoed information you see the CDC is not to
hide anything from we the people everything with
complete transparency these people are out of
controll and you talk about conflict of interest
these people get conflict of interest wavers
yrs in advance so they can be on committees
to help vote in the next block buster drug or
vaccine. And they want to destroy Dr Wakefield
who has only had the best interest of our kids
at heart you may only have little quirks but children
like my son are suffering with bowel disorders and
mainstreme medicine says these kids beat on them
selves because of behavior problems they said my
son does not po po because he just dont like the
feeling then I showed them and told them he grunts till blood comes out of his butt and fills his diaper they
then look at you with blank stares then state some
children don’t go for several days the gas pains in
my son were so bad we were giving him gas x six
times a day he broke his ankle bone twice twisting
contorting his body these kids are sick not psychologic
they are manafesting psychologically but in real pain
but even if the DRs want to say something for fear
they cannot because of the threat of retaliation from
HHS, AAP, CDC, FDA, now thats not a conspiracy
it’s just down right Greed any body looking at vaccines
cannot get research grants you want to know how out of controll the pharma is a researcher told me his friend
noticed when a certain drug came out that his patients retnas was falling apart so he asked a friend if they knew this his friend worked at the maker the next thing he knew
he recieved a call metioning his daughters name who
they should not have ever known If you don’t believe
people who have billions to lose will not threaten, manipulate data, even harm people, you have not
been watching the headlines lately I hate to say it
you are so smart that you are stupid or you are just comfortable in your own little world and you said
I could hurt research and don’t care about the autistic
people you could not be more wrong my friend you
think I have 35, 000 articles on my computer because
I do not care again you could not be more wrong

When you read my excerpts from the leaked
minutes of the IOM meeting then read the
Byron child world exclusive following the
excerpts

JOE —————————————ft worth

This is the proof the CDC bought the
IOM

DOES THIS 1ST EXCERPT SOUND LIKE THEY FOUND NO LINK?

IN EXCERPT 2 THEY THE CDC IS ORDERING THE IOM NOT TO FIND
CAUSATION IGNORE THE FIVE GOOD BIOLOGICAL STUDIES
AND PUT ALL THERE CONFIDENCE IN POPULATION BASED
STUDIES THAT WE NOW KNOW HAVE BEEN FAKED AND
ACCORDING TO CONGRESS FATE-ALLY FLAWED

IN EXCERPT # 3 THEIR MINDS WERE MADE UP BEFORE THEY SAW
ANY STUDIES NOT TO MENTION THEY WERE ORDERED NOT TO FIND
CAUSATION. TO THESE PEOPLE OUR CHILDREN MEAN NOTHING

ALL THOUGH IN PRIVATE THEY MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE IT’S A HARD
DECISION WE MAKE KNOWING THAT THEIR WILL HAVE TO BE LAMBS
SACRIFICED FOR THE GOOD OF THE WHOLE. I WONDER IF THAT
HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES GUY THAT MADE THAT STATEMENT
KNEW THAT THEY WERE SACRIFICED SO PEOPLE COULD SAVE
FIFTY CENTS TO TWO DOLLARS A CHILD
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————EXCERPT # 1
“We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree – that
the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
people
are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
that
will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
the
trap, I think, is the charge.”——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————EXCERPT # 2
-When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
Allen
stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
“redacted” or
blacked-out format.

The IOM stated “no comment” to byronchild about the leaked transcript
or its
use in the pending civil court case.——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————EXCERPT # 3
Specifically sited are statements by the IOM’s study director Kathleen
Stratton, PhD, and committee chair Marie McCormick, MD. These
statements,
the law firm says, strongly suggest Stratton and McCormick deliberately
railroaded their committee into specific outcomes (all in italics
directly
from court document):

Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
agency
“wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
population
basis.” (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

“The committee’s bias and predetermination of the causality issues
presented
are found at page 74 in a comment from Dr. Stratton:

Dr. Stratton: “We said this before you got here, and I think we said
this
yesterday, the point of no return, the line we will not cross in public
policy is to pull the vaccine, change the schedule. We could say it is
time
to revisit this but we will never recommend that level. Even
recommending
research is recommendations for policy. We wouldn’t say compensate, we
wouldn’t say pull the vaccine, we wouldn’t say stop the program.”

Similarly, Dr. McCormick, at page 97 in discussing whether autism could
be
associated with vaccines, stated that “we are not ever going to come
down
that it is a true side effect,” despite the fact that the committee had
not
yet considered any evidence on this issue.
Tom
July 30th, 2007
12:03:12

Oh, I see. There’s no science to support the claim that thimerosal causes autism so one must concoct a ridiculous conspiracy theory. The IOM is nobody’s fool. The panelists selected for the committee are independent scientists who can’t be bought or sold.

The CDC and FDA employs thousands and thousands of regular folks like you and me and if there was a conspiracy, do you really think they would all remain silent and continue to vaccinate their kids? Maybe the feds are all MIB.

The thimerosal/MMR camp looks more ridiculous with each passing day. They have joined the UFO Area 51 alien autopsy, flouride as a communist plot, fake moon landing, adherents.
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
12:51:31

HN If you read my whole post you will see that i am
saying that the mercury that was given in all but the
MMR and polio vaccine was the straw that broke the camels back in the late 80’s early 90’s double then
tripple the amount of mercury I believe that it is mercury
poisoning that causes the MMR to cause a bowel disorder
or that they all work to gather in what we see in differing
degrees in autism never once did I say mmr has thimerosal in it in fact this is what I said I unlike
so called autism experts know that there is no mercury
or thimerosal in the MMR for it would kill the live viruses.
You are wrong it was 2004 at last check with govenors counsel and remember this DR wiel at simpsonwood
stated There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem so the earlier
they went you know tcv containing flu shots in pregnant women you think maybe it because every knows that
thimerosal crosses the placenta and the blood brain
barrier but oh! theres not a blood brain barrier at that age
0 dosen’t it make you wonder why after knowing DR wiel
concern of going earlier could be worse why would she
do that also knowing the MSDS sheet states preg.
women should not be exposed to this product seems to
me shes looking for out comes remember we have a plan in place again preg women and children 6mos to 5 yrs
of age knowing two studies one for children saying chlldren 6 mos to 2 yrs get absolutly no bennifit except
that of a placebo effect. In the UK the Cochrane Collaboration stating the inactivated flu vacc.
no evidence it even works thats your country saying
that not mine this is worse than treason for both of our
countrys remember the key word once speaking of the
MMR and back then the mercury was very minamal
now we have doubled and trippled the amount of
mercury now im no rocket scienctist but it seems to
me they were concerned that this is acumelative in
the children my son was checked to see if he cannot
excrete mercury because of his genetics you see my
child is alergic to sulfas he swelled when he took a
sulfa based drug I believe thats a sign to being a sub
set group pre desposed to the damage done remember pinks was 1 in every 500 so we had a group pre desposed to the damage done then as well as now
pinks was mercury poisoning through teething powders
and even though it was bad it went through the bodys filters were as vacineal mercury is worse by far it by passes the filters of the body we are talking about bolus
doses at one time. Read simpsonwood read the leaked merk memo hilaman saying when veiwed this way it
seems like a rather large dose what way bolus doses
and vacineal. Not like other mercury poisonings that
were injested but again going through the god given
protections of the body that we bypass by vacineal
I stayed up all night to do this because I care so
much for the autistics
ps my GP DR that treating my son for three times the testostarone level as a nt child said that it blind sided
him that taking down the testostarone could stop some of his agression but getting to the science I said I knew
ethylmercury causes apoptosis aluminum apoptosis
and from yale university high testostarone apoptosis
the two salts mixed x10 apatosis with all this nuron
cell death going on could that be what we call autism
Yep you betcha you really think 87 times what the epa
allows safe and remember thats per daily allowance
not bolus doses and that never was considerd out loud
nor the aluminum salts for the synergy effect and now
we know that these kids have high testostarone levels
and remember this testostarone is drawn to mercury
so I would say the mystery is solved about autism
theres no such disorder it is a nureltoxin and a virus
insult that overwelms the childs body in a child that
does not excrete heavy metals the measles enbeds
in to the childs gut and spinal like the hero wakefield
found and has been repacated 3 times it’s pretty stupid
to say he caused pain in these children when drawing
blood these bastards at the GMC and the CDC
are responsible for children hitting them selves bitting down to the bone
in thier fingers digging ruts in thier faces and lets not
forget murdering and drowning runaway little children
falling out of windows burning themselves up now who
is worse and thats not the mothers jumping from bridges
with thier children one dad so desperate he cut his childs throat in the bath tub yep I would put them worse than hitler he did what he did for hate these people do thier
dirty little deeds in secret under the umbrella of greed
Kev
July 30th, 2007
13:20:51

Joe, you’re either an existential poet/beatnik or you’re copying and pasting these comments in from somewhere else. Either way, its just about impossible to read.

Line breaks, paragraphs, full stops. Punctuation Joe. These things are your friends. I can’t fight my way through another stream-of-conciousness outpouring, sorry.

BTW - Ray Gallup continues to act like a dickhead, so I’ve banned him.
hj
July 30th, 2007
14:59:51

Ouch, my eyes hurt.
bones
July 30th, 2007
15:33:00

peÂ·riÂ·od [peer-ee-uhd] â€“noun
the point or character (.) used to mark the end of a declarative sentence, indicate an abbreviation, etc.; full stop.
HN
July 30th, 2007
17:00:40

Also, with the lack of grammar… there is a total lack of real evidence. I could not find one verifiable reference (cherry picking quotes from an unreferenced conversation does not count).

There is no, nor has there ever been a connection between mercury and the MMR vaccine. There is no scientific evidence to connect the two.

You did write “MMR and polio vaccine was the straw that broke the camels back in the late 80â€™s early 90â€™s double then tripple the amount of mercury I believe that it is mercury poisoning that causes the MMR to cause a bowel disorder”

Key notes from that approximation of a sentence:

1) Polio vaccine was developed and started to be used in the 1960s. The only real change is a switch between the oral to injected forms, OPV to IPV in the 1990s. See the book Polio, An American Story by David Oshinsky.

2) The MMR vaccine has been used in the USA since the early 1970s. This was a time when kids were getting a bigger jolt of mercury through things like vaccines AND Mercurochrome (which was distributed until 1998… I know that as a kid we used this liberally in chigger bites). You can read about the developer of that vaccine in http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinat.....061227951/

3) Key phrase in your response was “I believe”. Why should we believe in what you believe without any real evidence? Why should we listen to you? Perhaps you will be taken more seriously after you read this:
http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/.....36,00.html

Now answer my question using your own words, with actual verifiable references and without cutting and pasting from some website (the tell tell hint are the random line breaks). Explain why the MMR that was approved for use in the USA in 1971, only seemed to start causing problems in the UK a full twenty years after it was developed.
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
17:16:59

tom I guess you never read the simpson wood transcripts one of the scientist said my new grand child a boy will
not be getting TCV’S until we know whats going on here
and that is going take a long time that takes care of one
thing you said not to continue to vaccinate their kids?

The IOM we did not have the FOIA right because the
IOM is non governmental agency so someone was
evidently worried about what they heard to leak the minutes do you not agree ? this is from the minutes—————————————————————————————————————-
â€œWeâ€™ve got a dragon by the tail here,â€ states a committee member in the
transcript. â€œAt the end of the line, what we know is â€“ and I agree â€“ that
the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
people
are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
that
will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
the
trap, I think, is the charge.â€

Now truley does this sound like they found nothing
or were they more worried about the vaccine program
than telling the truth looks like you did not read what
I wrote you can read can’t you

In another part of the transcript marie says

Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
agency
â€œwants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
population
basis.â€ (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

and not to look at the science. the way it’s stated
in the transcript is walt wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
population basis and what walt wants walt generally gets
that kind of ordering them not to find a link don’t ya think
you can think for your self cant’ you or do you need a
person like marie that willing to poison children to think
for you are you really this stupid that you cannot see
these people are not worried about our kids they are
worried about what this could do to the vaccine program
hence the lies and the refuseal to look at the five good biological studies AND PUT ALL THERE CONFIDENCE IN POPULATION BASED
STUDIES THAT WE NOW KNOW HAVE BEEN FAKED AND
ACCORDING TO CONGRESS FATE-ALLY FLAWED
one study was by verstraiten his work was changed by
the CDC 5 times he him self went to work for GSK 3 and
a half yrs earlier GSK was in litigation with parents of autistic kids but his work some how got in the AAP journal
can you say direct conflict of interest worse than wakefields and his earlier work were he found a link
was destroyed even when DR congressman weldon
was warning dir of the CDC that he were worried about the safety of his original work but they the CDC destroyed it anyway sound rational to you

now the canot be bought statement did you here a trusted high up scientist sold alzimers samples to a
pharma co. they said they dont think he did any thing
wrong what planet are they from oh! I remember MIB
THE BALLS NOW IN YOUR COURT
Brian Deer
July 30th, 2007
17:18:10

What always surprises me that there is no trail of whistleblowers (protected under US law) coming out of the CDC, or any other federal agency, claiming that vaccine data has been rigged/fabricated/suppressed, or whatever. No Ph.D students saying; “Hell, we won’t take this.”

Compare that to the Wakefield situation, where there’s a veritable queue of his former collaborators and associates denouncing him.

All on the payroll of big pharma?

So why isn’t there anybody coming out of big pharma with the dirt?

I can tell you, anybody who could show anything like the kind of misconduct alleged by these antivax loonies would get a week on Oprah, a book deal, and probably a movie of their lives.

It’s just bullshit. Not even worth engaging with.
Joseph
July 30th, 2007
17:20:26

Joe: Have you been evaluated for autism? I’m not making fun or insulting you, seriously. Please don’t take it that way. I’m autistic myself. I knew that many years before my son was even born, but once he was diagnosed, it all became a more central part of my life and the way I view and (now) accept myself. Autism is probably the most genetic neurological “disorder” that has been only defined phenotypically. When a child is autistic, it’s common for the parents to be in the spectrum or close to it. To state the obvious, atypical communication is a core feature of autism.
HN
July 30th, 2007
17:21:14

Sorry Joe, you have still not answered my question. You have not even attempted it, especially since the Simpsonwood conference was not about the MMR (which has never contained thimerosal… along with deficits in grammar and spelling, do you also have a reading disability?).

I see you have been making the rounds your unique style has been noted here:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
17:32:03

Guys I do apologize im not sticken with some thing that makes me perfect like you im just a dad of a severly sick child but i will concede my writing sucks but my sincerity
is genuine.
HN
July 30th, 2007
17:59:04

Just try to use real evidence. Simpsonwood does not count for MMR because it says on page 11:
“There will not be much discussion today about polio, measles, mumps,
rubella, varicella or Hepatitis A. These vaccines have not, and do not contain Thimerosal. The focus is going to be about Hepatitis B, DTP and H. flu vaccine.”

By the way, many of us also have disabled children. Several have kids with autism, I have a child who had a seizure disorder and now a very severe heart condition who can be a harmed by the actual diseases (he was in very real danger while our county had a pertussis epidemic). This child has been hospitalized several times, and had ten years of speech therapy (and despite being severely learning disabled, his prose is much easier to read). Don’t try the “oh, I have a sick kid… you need to listen to me because my kid is severely sick” ploy. That does not excuse you for not providing actual verifiable evidence.

We are not “perfect” people, but some of us have been dealing with vaccine fearmongers for a very long time. I first encountered these people when I worked to keep my health impaired baby away from them when our county was having a pertussis epidemic. This was also a time that measles returned to the USA and killed over 120 real people (and probably disabled many many more).

I would suggest you do a little bit of reading before trying to convince us any further.

First try this blog comment on how the Simpsonwood was misrepresented:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skep.....lies_.html

Then some books…
Vaccine, the Controversial Story by Arthur Allen
Vaccinated by Paul Offit
Plagues and Peoples by William McNeill
Flu, the Story of the Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 by Gina Kolata
The Great Influenza by John Barry
Deaf Like Me by Thomas Spradley and James Spradley

And this online book, here are the chapters:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pu.....apters.htm

Do not come back until you have attempted to read some of the above, and have a better answer to my question, and my other question: Which vaccine in the present pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the actual disease?

Remember to include actual references. If you say the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis, show where you get the information. You are allowed two web links on this blog.
notmercury
July 30th, 2007
18:24:22

Joe Harris Says: “Guys I do apologize im not sticken with some thing that makes me perfect like you im just a dad of a severly sick child but i will concede my writing sucks but my sincerity is genuine.”

Well I, for one, think you are awesome, Joe. You’re doing a much better job than most of the anti-vaxxers here. Keep up the good work.
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
18:46:14

You ND’ S do not even answer the document about the IOM and how they were willing to lie than for the truth to get out

brian deer this is for you , you don’t live here last year
or so one of the scientist that worked for the FDA came forward on viox cases. They his friends he worked for
turned on him he was seeking whistle blower status.
At last count he was put in charge of the water fountain
still had his job so to speak. You give congress to much
credit most of them are paid pharma whores senate also
these people at the CDC are scared to death but I cannot change
your mind you sold out a long time ago like I said christ will have the last laugh it seems to me you being a reporter would have something to say about people willing to lie
to keep up vaccine rates in fact the only way you would not have something to say is that you sold your soul and
your profession
notmercury
July 30th, 2007
18:58:41

JH:... like I said christ will have the last laugh…

Well that doesn’t sound very Christian-like.
Joseph
July 30th, 2007
19:18:42

“You NDâ€™ S do not even answer the document about the IOM and how they were willing to lie than for the truth to get out”

Are you referring to the Simpsonwood transcript or to some other document I’m unaware of?
HN
July 30th, 2007
19:25:13

Joe Harris said “You NDâ€™ S do not even answer the document about the IOM and how they were willing to lie than for the truth to get out”

Sigh, could you please try reading this for comprehension:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skep.....lies_.html

And for the third (or is it the fourth) time, the Simpsonwood meeting had nothing to do with MMR.

Now, it has come to light in an American courtroom that Wakefield ignored negative test results. It has also come to light that he was paid a substantial amount of UK tax payers money to find fault in the MMR, and the only way he could do that was by ignoring the actual test results. Now who is the real liar?
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
19:33:09

HN I am sorry for your childs problems but at least
your child speaks mine can only scream be thankful to god for that. my son was perfectly normal how many
times must we tell you guys this is destroying normal children not that your child is not normal if anything
I have been humbled by this and if anybody hurts a
handycapped child verbally or otherwise I get very
angry and say things I should not say I became very
protective of my little guy. You mention paul offit
I have a problem with a scientist that says quote
(( I think full disclosier is not a good idea ))
so people like him would be our protectors you can’t prove it to me by that quote the man voted in roto virus
vaccine knowing the dangers of sepsus the twisting of
the childs intestins was a concern. It soon did what they
were worried it might do it was recalled. But old profit
was thinking ahead the joint patton with merk it’s always
money with these people they can’t fear god and do the things they do. They must be atheist not a slur just if there
is no after life there is no one to be acountable to so why not burn childrens brains twist thier thier guts i am acountable to nobody
Joseph
July 30th, 2007
19:41:29

Skeptico, who actually read and reread the Simpsonwood transcript line by line, wrote a couple great analyses. The one linked by HN above is a follow-up to this one:

http://skeptico.blogs.com/skep.....enned.html
HN
July 30th, 2007
19:45:29

JH said “how many times must we tell you guys this is destroying normal children not that your child is not normal if anything”

Evidence?

What is destroying normal children and how is it being done?

I’ve know of rubella destroying a normal developing fetus, or causing severe disabilities. I know of Hib causing a child seizures and making him severely learning disabled. Also I know of Hib killing a toddler. I know that four people became deaf last year because of mumps. I know of measles causing blindless in a couple of boys, also putting one into a wheelchair. I know that measles killed Roald Dahl’s oldest daughter. I know that polio whithered the legs of a woman who swims at the local pool. I know that 15 to 20 American babies die because of pertussis each year.

Could you be a bit more specific?
bones
July 30th, 2007
19:51:23

Listen, in all seriousness, I have two comments.

First, I am tired of the EoH-ers describing the Simpsonwood meeting as a super-double-secret-covert-clandestine meeting. The CDC is not obligated to invite the public to every single meeting it holds, and the fact the the transcript was always publicly available (albeit through FOIA, but public nonetheless) sort of rules out the whole surriptitious-deceptive-private-subversive meeting theory that, by-the-by was first purported by SafeMinds (I believe).

Second, I am also tired of the whole Big-Pharma-Controls-All conspiracy theory. Granted, the pharmaceutical industry is very influentional, no doubt. But to suggest they have the ability to essentially buy every judge, university, and reputable researcher in the U.S., U.K., Canada, etc, AND cover-up a “raging epidemic” is absolutely absurd. If they were that powerful then they would have focused their efforts on litigation with legitimately published science (eg, Fen/Phen, antidepressants, VIOXX, etc…), rather than the double talking gibberish belched up by Geier, Haley, et al.
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
20:05:09

joseph nice name it reminds me of somebody me!

the minutes leaked of the IOM meeting you can read them
thanks to somebody concerned enough about what he or
she heard at the meeting you know lieing so people will
in thier words——————————————————————————————————————-
â€œWeâ€™ve got a dragon by the tail here,â€ states a committee member in the
transcript. â€œAt the end of the line, what we know is â€“ and I agree â€“ that
the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
people
are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
that
will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
the
trap, I think, is the charge.
if you can read this and say they were not lieing
you have a problem with reality
when they reported to the the public no causeation
and dont look at vaccines put your money were you will get the most bang for yor research dollar

remember they were orderd not to find causeation

Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
agency
â€œwants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
population
basis.â€ (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

and not to look at the science. the way itâ€™s stated
in the transcript is walt wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
population basis and what walt wants walt generally gets

stacked deck huh, You really think these people are in it
four the right reason the good of our children if they get
any better at it we want have any more children left
Joseph
July 30th, 2007
20:23:35

Well, Joe, you obviously did not read Skeptico’s analysis (the one linked by HN above) where he specifically addresses the quotes you just posted. They are clearly taken out of context. You need to read a few sentences before and a few sentences after to realize nothing sinister is going on.

Interestingly, if you look at that thread, Critical Thinker, who is the parent who challenged Skeptico with those quotes back in 2005, promised he’d rebutt Skeptico on his analysis, but never did. The only somewhat critical comments in that thread came from Ginger, who was being pretty reasonable and said she didn’t necessarily have a problem with Skeptico’s interpretations of the quotes.

What I think happened is that people came in with preconceptions and read into it what the wanted to read into it. Skeptico did a great job of putting the quotes in context and parsing the language.
Joe Harris
July 30th, 2007
20:48:02

joseph what i am talking about is the IOM not the simpson
wood they are two different meetings thank you for not being mean spirited and having civil debate with me
i will be leaving yall now but the debate is not over
thanks for putting up with my bad grammer and not
much peer-ee-uhd that was for bones
HN
July 30th, 2007
21:50:54

The IOM (http://www.nomercury.org/iom/iom.pdf ) is what is being discussed in the link I gave you. Try again for comprehension:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skep.....lies_.html
» Why investigating Wakefield matters - Autism Blog, Web Design Blog
August 1st, 2007
03:31:06

[...] Time after time, when presented with more attempts to establish the truth, they never fail to act dishonestly and lie to support their [...]
» Attempts at intimidation - Autism Blog, Web Design Blog
August 4th, 2007
05:34:01

[...] certainly gearing up for that. It was only recently that Brad Handley of Generation Rescue said to [...]
Andrew MacDonald
August 4th, 2007
06:51:11

Your editorial comment is misguided.
It shows that you are only a sheep.
What a waste of time reading any more of your site.
My last time, you ignorant buffoon.
I suggest you do some research and educate yourself.
Andrew MacDonald.
Kev
August 4th, 2007
07:01:59

Thanks for the poem Andrew. Don’t let the door hit you on the haiku on the way out.
bones
August 6th, 2007
20:10:07

MacDonald’s a strange dude down in Delaware
Likes to have someone stick an umbrella where
You and I couldn’t stand it—He just howls and demands it
Right up his… Oh, surely you’re well aware.

Heh-heh-heh…I gotta admit, that’s kinda fun. Thanks for the idea A.M.
David N. Andrews M. Ed. (Distinction)
August 6th, 2007
22:21:41

Bring back MacGonagle, please :/

;)
bones
August 7th, 2007
01:29:04

Not exactly Blake, I admit.
Peter Bowditch
August 15th, 2007
05:30:07

Here’s Sheri Nakken talking on her mailing list about Ray Gallup posting here as Paul Offit:

“This may have been created by someone else as a prank
Please ignore”

She then went on to quote one of the messages.

Now here is her analysis of the fraudulent message:

“Interesting…......
Kevin Leitch – a viscious pro vaccine site
Paul Offict – provaccine to the max but he even finds Leitch distasteful”

So she says that it is a prank and you should ignore it, but it simultaneously shows that Dr Offitt “finds Leitch distasteful”.

And these people keep asking why I call them “liars”.
HN
August 15th, 2007
07:38:22

Sheri Nakken generally has trouble keeping much of what she does straight. It seems to be an occupational hazard of most homeopaths. Here she demonstrates her problems with basic math (she does not understand that 0.2% is the same as 1 in 500):
http://groups.google.com/group.....ef91b8ab8c
Kev
August 15th, 2007
08:42:15

I’ll happily supply Sheri with all IP details for Ray ‘roadkill’ Gallup if she wants them. Or would she even know what to do with them? I did take the liberty of forwarding them all on to Dr Offit’s Security services in case they should wish to take action however.