Bring the crazy – Fecal Transplant

9 Dec

There’s a few places around the interweb that you can always count on for a good old dose of craziness. One of those is the Autism Web forums, where the latest trend being discussed is Fecal Transplant.

Yeah. Fecal Transplant.

It is actually a known therapy to attempt to cure

…pseudomembranous colitis (caused by Clostridium difficile), or ulcerative colitis which involves restoration of colon homeostasis by reintroducing normal bacterial flora from stool obtained from a healthy donor.

Feeling a bit icky yet?

But like so many known treatments for known ailments (chelation for example), the extreme biomed party like to put their own unique twist on things:

Ok, you guys, I got some info for you, please do not hate me :)
Here is how this procedure was done by that physician in canada who does not practice anymore.
you collect the stool from a healthy relative (mother, father , so on) for a week in a bucket, no preservatives or cooling. Then mix well, fill in a decorating cone (that cloth cone you use to decorate a cake).
Use the cone as an enema to empty all the content in the patient’s colon. The patient needs to hold that as long as possible.

Does that in theory mean no more GFCG diets, yeast treatments, mega supplements if it works right? Is there the potential for this to actually reverse autism, then? With the autism/gut connection it sure makes sense. I’ll admit I didn’t read this post initially because it sounded so gross, but now that I’ve started to look into it…..it may really work.

Hooray!!! Playing ‘doctor’ via the internet and subjecting your kids to it!! Just wonderful.

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59 Responses to “Bring the crazy – Fecal Transplant”

  1. Do'C December 9, 2010 at 19:29 #

    Holy shit.

  2. Barbara December 9, 2010 at 19:38 #

    What a load of crap! But how about icing it on to a cup cake and introducing it orally rather than rectally? Brings a whole new therapeutic meaning to Chocolate Fudge Cake……

  3. René Najera December 9, 2010 at 20:47 #

    For a week? Orally or rectally, I’d be surprised if anyone can hold their shit together for a second under that pressure!

  4. Liz Ditz December 9, 2010 at 20:58 #

    If anyone is actually doing this, it’s child abuse in my mind.

    BTW, you wouldn’t even have to use a doctor. Naso gastric tubes (stomach tubes) can easily be purchased from veterinary supply places such as Tractor Supply or from Jeffers off the internet.

  5. Catherina December 9, 2010 at 21:06 #

    There must be suppositories that have the appropriate bacteria in them – or is that (prescription) medicine = evil?

  6. Marc Rosen December 9, 2010 at 21:12 #

    Seriously, hasn’t anyone ever heard of a little thing called “common sense”?! If it seems, looks, SMELLS, or LITERALLY INVOLVES SHIT, then most likely, that is its value in terms of treating autism.

  7. Prometheus December 9, 2010 at 21:22 #

    OK, ignoring for a minute (or as long as I possibly can) the image of feces in a pastry bag (I’ll never look at chocolate icing the same ever again), what is the purpose of this step:

    “…collect the stool from a healthy relative (mother, father , so on) for a week in a bucket, no preservatives or cooling.” [emphasis added]

    I would have thought that a single adult bowel movement would contain plenty of feces – enough, certainly, to fill the rectum/sigmoid colon of a child. Are they intending for this “fecal enema” to reach past the sigmoid colon? For that matter, how large a pastry cone are they planning on filling?

    Also, leaving feces to sit for a week seems like an invitation for fungal overgrowth. Considering how phobic this group usually is about “yeast” (a morphotype found in many fungi), you’d think filling a pastry bag from a moldy bucket of poo would be a real “turn-off”.

    And how do they propose to address the bacterial flora in the small intestine? I don’t think that their pastry bag will hold enough to fill the entire colon and get into the ileum.

    So many questions that apparently haven’t been considered. This may explain another part of the posting:

    “Here is how this procedure was done by that physician in canada [sic] who does not practice anymore.” [emphasis added]

    Did this physician retire voluntarily or was he/she “encouraged” to retire by the relevant licensing board?

    Of course, this doesn’t even begin to address the real problem: the “disorder” they are proposing to treat with these “fecal transplants” probably doesn’t exist, at least, not in the person they propose to treat. And even pseudomembranous colitis doesn’t resolve (even with fecal transplants) until the C. difficile is eradicated – so what are the parents planning to use to eradicate the presumed (but usually not well-documented) “dysbiosis”? One wonders.

    At any rate, I’ll be a lot more careful about decorated cakes and cookies this holiday season.

    Prometheus

  8. KWombles December 9, 2010 at 22:35 #

    Oh, just ewww. And after reading the CNN story on the guy whose colon is teaming with helminths, double ewwww.

  9. Kassiane December 9, 2010 at 22:46 #

    I just threw up a little in my mouth.

    How do people take themselves seriously after hocking ‘treatments’ like this.

    • Sullivan December 9, 2010 at 23:29 #

      “I just threw up a little in my mouth.”

      Don’t say that out loud. Someone may ask you to save it for a week and transplant it into someone else.

  10. KWombles December 9, 2010 at 22:56 #

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=299 Val Jones covered fecal transplants back in 2008.

    • Sullivan December 9, 2010 at 23:32 #

      KWombles,

      there is also a post on Science Blogs about this procedure.

      *If* it has any value, it certainly isn’t as a do-it-yourself project.

  11. KWombles December 10, 2010 at 00:09 #

    That’s for sure. That parents are actually considering (and possibly doing this) when the following is a risk is more frightening than the nicotine patches and all the other stuff combined:

    “The human GI tract is not just full of bacteria, but it can also be populated with viruses, fungi, protozoa and parasites. Fecal transplants can transmit HIV, prion disease, e. coli 0157:H7, worms, shigella and other dysentery-causing infectious agents. Current laboratory testing is unable to detect all possible pathogens, especially prions. It is therefore impossible to declare a stool sample “safe” with our current technology.”– Val Jones

  12. Chris December 10, 2010 at 02:52 #

    What is pushing by gag reflex is the thought of letting it fester for a week and then being full of maggots!

  13. Morgan December 10, 2010 at 05:39 #

    Of course! He hasn’t got enough intestinal flora. That’s why he can’t talk.

    It’s so obvious — I’ll be kicking myself for a week for not figuring this out sooner!

  14. Tam December 10, 2010 at 06:09 #

    I just had to weigh in with my outrage that anyone would even think of considering something so disgusting as this.

    Seriously, how could you ram someone else’s week-old festering crap up your child’s hind-end and live with yourself?

  15. Liz Ditz December 10, 2010 at 06:37 #

    I don’t have anybody to talk to about this right now, so you all get to hear this.

    I don’t know why this got to me so much today, but it did.

    I’m two states away from home, doing research on a biography. I’ve been in the library since Wednesday morning, reading microfilmed newspapers from 1875 onwards. Every so often there was the “died of measles” “died of mumps” “diphtheria outbreak” and so on — all kids under 18, and a couple of times parents lost all their children. So there was that bit in the back of my mind.

    Then this afternoon, at the computer bank next to my microfilm reader, there was a mom and a boy. I’m guessing that the boy was what my friend Alicia calls “our people”– hands over ears when people were too loud; not so much language and etc.

    So I was speeding through one microfilm looking for a particular date, and neighbor boy became engaged with what was happening on the microfilm screen. Mom apologized, and since I was ready for a break, I spent a little time talking with her & letting neighbor boy zoom the microfilm back & forth. I’m guessing he’s in a program that works for him, because he let me, a complete stranger, do hand-over-hand control of the microfilm dials. I also showed mom a couple of video clips of my pal Leo using his iPad for social stories and engaged play.

    Then mom said, “well, I think we’ll have to move or you won’t get back to work.” So neighbor boy (with my help) dismounted the microfilm spool & put it back in the box & turned off the microfilm reader, and he said, “all done” and mom & boy moved off to a different part of the library, out of my sight. Or rather, moving neighbor boy out of sight of the entrancing microfilm reader.

    Several hours later the library closed. I checked my email etc. just before the library closed & this post came up again.

    So I was driving back to where I’m staying, a friend’s vacation house, and I started weeping a bit, thinking about kids being exposed to this… mad-scientist, dangerous sort of experimentation.

    By the time I got back to the place I’m staying I realized a second thing that’s upsetting me about this — the violation of the child’s body.

    Don’t get me wrong — when children have significant medical conditions, parents must do things like administering enemas etc. I haven’t personally had to do that to a child of mine, but I did when my father was dying 20 years ago.

    So enough of my meandering.

    I just find it all heart wrenching.

  16. Julian Frost December 10, 2010 at 07:06 #

    Firstly, UGH!!
    Secondly, thanks Kim Wombles for highlighting the dangers of this procedure.
    Thirdly, why do this to change a person’s gut flora? When I had an upset stomach, one of the things I was given at the Dispensary was a pack of lactobacillus capsules. Another thing you can do is go to the shops and buy some prebiotic yoghurt. Both are far safer than this.
    Catherina, I think the capsules I mentioned above may have a suppository option, but I don’t know for certain.

  17. KWombles December 10, 2010 at 14:39 #

    Oh Liz,

    I’m glad you meandered. It sounds like a positive experience at the library for both you and the mom and boy!

    And yes, it is heartwrenching to read these things and realize that there are parents who subject their children to these kinds of treatmens and violations of body far too often. Somedays, reading these things weighs heavily on me and I wonder how it lays for the people who do these things, what kind of cognitive dissonance must exist for them and how they resolve it, and whether they saw their children as whole, complete individuals before they started using them as guinea pigs.

  18. Liz Ditz December 10, 2010 at 16:06 #

    Hi Julian — the Wikipedia article on fecal transplant indicates that it is used when a person’s gut flora has become so disordered that conventional probiotic therapy, like lactobacillus, is ineffective. This narrative or case study from an endoscopic nurse gives more information. The narrative also indicate why this shouldn’t be done lightly, at home.

  19. Prometheus December 10, 2010 at 21:15 #

    Liz Ditz advises:

    “The narrative also indicate why this shouldn’t be done lightly, at home.”

    No shit, eh?

    However, if you do feel that you must do this at home, please, please discard the pastry bag (and any frosting tips you might have used) afterwards.

    Prometheus

  20. Joseph December 10, 2010 at 21:44 #

    Hi Julian—the Wikipedia article on fecal transplant indicates that it is used when a person’s gut flora has become so disordered that conventional probiotic therapy, like lactobacillus, is ineffective.

    Interestingly, it mentions that it’s used in the treatment of pseudomembranous colitis or ulcerative colitis.

    Take pseudomembranous colitis (looks like this.) It apparently causes diarrhea, pain, fever, possibly bleeding, lethargy, and it makes the patient look unwell. No mention of autism.

  21. Barbara December 10, 2010 at 23:28 #

    I love the way you guys dissect, carefully, every bonkers ‘study’. giving it the beautifully considered weight of your expertise and empathy.

    Why can’t you just say – crazy, nutty, move on?

    Some things aren’t even worthy of anything but a joke statement.

    These things are just beneath contempt.

    I’m not NT, I’m epileptic, but I retain this ability to edit crap out of my filtering system. Just let this go down the pan. Pay no attention. It’s meaningless shit.

  22. Emma Apple December 11, 2010 at 03:50 #

    This is horrifying! Not only are they endangering the childs health but as someone else pointed out (am on my phone so can’t easily see who, apologies) this is a violation of the childs personal space for no good reason! Intruding on achild like that without the utmost caution and a damn good and proven doubtless reason, puts them at serious risk if ever put in a compromising situation.

    My daughter had something which the Dr suggested we treat with a proven cream, she was uncomfortable and did not want anyone including herself applying the cream, so we didn’t treat it, end of story. I would rather risk minor surgery when she’s old enough to understand than put her in that kind of confusing situation.

    Why give this the attention and time instead of writing it off as crazy? Because there are people endorsing, considering and possibly DOING this to children!

  23. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. December 11, 2010 at 10:49 #

    So, not content with having an idiot medic (Buttar) taking and injecting autistic kids’ own piss back into them, now they hit upon the idea of introducing another person’s shit into children. And they are happy to consider this ‘treatment’?

    Sick pigs.

  24. Prometheus December 12, 2010 at 22:25 #

    David N. Andrews comments:

    “So, not content with having an idiot medic (Buttar) taking and injecting autistic kids’ own piss back into them, now they hit upon the idea of introducing another person’s shit into children.”

    I can’t help wondering, what Sigmund Freud would have made of this obsession with elimination? Not that I think Freud had any great insight into the human condition, but he seemed to have also been obsessed with elimination.

    At some level, I wonder if someone isn’t just making up crazy stuff and tossing it into the “biomed” ‘blogs and list-servers to see if anyone “bites”. Are they planning to keep “upping the ante” until someone in the groups finally says “That’s crazy!”? If that is the case, I fear that the “That’s crazy!” moment may never come – there seems to be no limit to what some of these “biomed” parents will do to their children in their frantic search for a “cure”.

    Prometheus

  25. Jackie December 13, 2010 at 02:25 #

    I couldn’t believe the nasogastric version of the treatment till I read it myself, then sat there with a O_o look on my face for a good minute. Have these people not heard of E. Coli? It’s child abuse, it’s poisoning children! Why is that okay when it comes to a child with Autism?

  26. ebohlman December 14, 2010 at 03:28 #

    I suspect some prominent American “christian” groups are going to read about this and repurpose it as a description of a supposedly common gay male sexual practice.

  27. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. December 15, 2010 at 05:01 #

    @Prometheus:
    “I can’t help wondering, what Sigmund Freud would have made of this obsession with elimination? Not that I think Freud had any great insight into the human condition, but he seemed to have also been obsessed with elimination.”

    Well, as much of a bollock-brain as we might want to see him, he’d have thought of these people as total fuc’k-wits really. Yes – even he would have seen this behaviour as pathological

  28. Theo December 15, 2010 at 19:37 #

    Why is it ok to put kids with disabilities through any kind of experimentation without thier concent and it is not against the law, but it’s not ok to do this with regular children? What is up with the double standard? All is fare in the search for a cure? Really? No matter how it harms the child?

    It disgusts and sickens me, what these people get away with in the name of thier precious cure!! I wonder if they even view thier child as a child anymore and not some science project! The doctors who sale this need to be locked up and parents who subject thier children to it need at least to have serious therapy made mandatory!

    I don’t have to have a medical degree to see what possible harm something like this can do to a child! Any parent who would try such a thing needs to SEEK HELP IMEDIATELY!!!! What in the hell is wrong with these people!!!

  29. Not that anyone of you will change your mind February 9, 2011 at 23:44 #

    What a wonderful bunch of scientically oriented people focussed on getting their kids back in shape :-)

    Fortunately, life goes on without your ignorant prejudgized comment – complete devoid of actual knowledge about the subject, and only focussing on things that normal children usually only finds fascinating until the age of three.

    What would you actually do if it turned out that this was a major breaktrough? Basically, your opinion and civil manners caused penicillin treatment for ulcers to be delayed for 25 years.

    Parents trying a therapy used for instenial diseases without complication should be commended for trying out new venues. But I guess many of you suffer from Diabetes 2, obesity etc – which acidently happens to be verifiably influences by intestinal flora as well, and which provably is helped bu this intervention.

    • Sullivan February 9, 2011 at 23:53 #

      “What would you actually do if it turned out that this was a major breaktrough?”

      What would you do if this turned out to be a method to make children sick? That is the most likely result. I am willing to go out on a limb and say that saving feces in a bucket for a week and then inserting them into a child via a tube purchased at a veterinary supply store will never be considered a “breakthrough”.

      There comes a point where do-it-yourself is not an appropriate approach to medicine.

  30. sharon February 10, 2011 at 04:56 #

    I try to remain compassionate when talking to other parents of ASD kids even if they buying into the whole woo thing. But this fecal transplant thing is where I draw the line. I am sorry ntaoywcym, but that procedure is child abuse in my book. Plain and simple. YOu ask what I would do if there was a breakthrough, well it just so happens I covered this topic on my blog which of course you are welcome to read. The thought of any child being subjected to this ridiculous procedure makes me sick to my stomach, and I can only urge, no beg, you to reconsider.

  31. Somebody March 22, 2011 at 14:54 #

    You are all a bunch of fools. Why don’t you research the matter before pointing fingers? Stool transplant is working. It saves lives. Just search for Stool Transplantation or Fecal Transplantation. It cures up to 90% of people suffering from pseudomembranous colitis. Now I don’t say it’ll work for autism, not at all (nothing will I think). But DO NOT snub for noses at something you haven’t even researched.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomembranous_colitis

  32. Chris March 22, 2011 at 16:22 #

    Somebody, but is the the stool transplantation the same as described above? Pray tell, which of those wikis explain that you gather the stool, stick in in a bucket for a week without cooling, and then fill a decorating cone to push into a child’s rear end?

    Hmmm… Look at the first wiki link, it says “An autologous faecal sample, provided by the patient before medical treatment, is stored in a refrigerator. Should the patient subsequently develop C. difficile the sample is extracted with saline and filtered. The filtrate is freeze dried and the resulting solid enclosed in enteric coated capsules..”

    Hmmmm…. it does not look the same.

    Let’s look at your second wiki link: Hmmm, it just links to the first wiki.

    Sorry, Somebody. Perhaps you should actually read and compare the two methods. The real method, versus the one made up by someone else above.

  33. sharon March 22, 2011 at 22:45 #

    Only a fool would run his/her mouth before properly understanding the presentation of an argument. This is a site about Autism. As you say yourself there is no evidence fecal transplants would assist someone with ASD. And as Chris above outlines, I think you’ll find the do-it-yourself version recommended by quacks most unorthodox and unsettling.

  34. Nika March 24, 2011 at 12:11 #

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21278582

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21268362

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21150894

    “Although it is generally accepted that the distal gut microbiota are relatively stable in healthy adult individuals, a collapse of the microbial community structure resulting from antibiotic therapy or pathogen presence can lead to gut dysfunction. However, recent findings demonstrate that it is possible to engraft new microbiota from a donor source, resulting in the restoration of gut functionality and improvement in health. This builds upon decades of case reports and series in which fecal transfers were used to successfully treat refractory and recurrent Clostridium difficile infection. As fecal transplantation becomes part of mainstream medicine, it will likely provide a unique opportunity to study the interactions of humans with their attendant microbiota and allow greater insights into their synergistic functionality.”

    http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/12/fecal_transplants_to_cure_clos.php

    Fecal transplants to cure Clostridium difficile infection

    http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/57795/

    “This therapy — known as fecal transplants, bacteriotherapy, or human probiotic infusions — has taken to the limelight in recent years, not only because its gross factor makes for great headlines, but in great part because of the growing epidemic of a particularly toxic strain of Clostridium difficile that has been plaguing hospitals across the U.S. for the past decade and affecting more than a quarter of a million Americans per year.”

    http://www.slate.com/id/2282768/

    “Fecal transplants could be a cheap and effective treatment for gastrointestinal disorders.”

    http://www.informationaboutdiabetes.com/news/diabetic-celebrities/easd-fecal-transplant-flushes-insulin-resistance

    Fecal Transplant Flushes Insulin Resistance

    http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/fecal-transplantation-alters-rat-gut-microbiomes

    “A study in the early, online edition of Genome Research today suggests it’s possible to produce long-term changes to the rat gut microbiome through fecal transplants.
    Their findings indicate that fecal transplantation does lead to changes in gut microbiomes that persist over time. ”

    “The transplantation produced a marked increase in the microbial diversity of the recipients, which stemmed from both capture of new phylotypes and increase in abundance of others,” corresponding author Chaysavanh Manichanh, a researcher with the University Hospital Vall d’Hebron Research Institute in Spain, and co-authors wrote.

  35. Chris March 24, 2011 at 16:01 #

    Nika, do any of those cites recommend that you (copying and pasting from my previous comment) “gather the stool, stick in in a bucket for a week without cooling, and then fill a decorating cone to push into a child’s rear end?”

    Have you actually read the above article? None of us are disputing the usefulness the the standard stool transplant. What we are appalled at is the thought that it sit in a bucket for a week without refrigeration, and then shoved up the child’s colon.

    We are also appalled that you have and your friend are responding without actually reading what was written in the quoted parts of the article. Now go do an Emily Litella “Never Mind” and actually read what was written.

  36. Sullivan March 24, 2011 at 17:59 #

    Chris,

    the original discussion of this (on another site) also included obtaining a naso-gastro tube from a veterinary supply store for use in inserting the aged fecal matter.

    Nika: I could pull out a bunch of pubmed abstracts on heart transplants. Doesn’t mean that parents should do them on their children.

    Nika: let’s assume that a child has a seriously dysfunctional digestive tract. Let’s assume that one does a fecal transplant. How does one insure that harmful substances are not transplanted? The patient, after all, is someone with a dysfunctional digestive tract.

    Where are the safety and efficacy data for this procedure? What should I be looking for if my child has an adverse reaction? How would I treat said adverse reaction?

  37. sharon March 25, 2011 at 00:01 #

    I see a market for brain transplants.

  38. Joe23 December 6, 2011 at 05:04 #

    Unfortunately the nay sayers here haven’t done their research. Fecal flora has everything to do with the health of an individual as dysbiotic flora contributes to putrefying byproducts which can produce a variety of mental symptoms. There are individuals in Australia who received this treatment with diseases as severe as MS and walked away from it cured. The gut is the deep ocean of the human body, completely unexplored and not understood. There are 30,000 subspecies of bacteria inhabiting your intestines and there is all kinds of research pointing to the fact these bacteria do cause mental illness and other neurological disorders. There’s overwhelming research showing Autistic kids have dysbiotic flora, and not only that…but the mothers do as well (however not as severe is the children). This isn’t an area to scoff at as many cures will come from the research into this area….Autism possibly included.

  39. Julian Frost December 6, 2011 at 07:30 #

    Joe23:

    There’s overwhelming research showing Autistic kids have dysbiotic flora, and not only that…but the mothers do as well (however not as severe is the children).

    Then post the research, and nothing from the Geiers, Wakefield, Thoughtful House, Gary Null, Mike Adams or Joe Mercola please.

  40. Joe23 December 6, 2011 at 14:28 #

    Hey Julian,

    I saw your post on probiotics. The reason probiotics aren’t successful in many is because the way they are cultured doesn’t allow them to “implant” into the digestive tract. They are transient, meaning after you stop taking them they disappear in a few weeks. Another reason is that like i said you have 30,000 bacteria in your gut at specific ratio’s and each has it’s own unique role in your health. Probiotics sold at the store usually consist of between 1 to up around 30 bacteria which are transient. Pretty hard to restore normal flora of 30,000 species with just cherry picking one or two lactobacilli or bifido bacterium when the digestive tract is severely out of balance.

    I would get Dr. Natasha Campbell’s book (neurologist) called “Gut and Psychology Syndrome” for an overview of how flora can effect what is going on in the brain. She also covers how dysbiotic flora is seen in mothers and the children with Autism.

    I also personally spoke with the first nurse to administer around 300 of these through a Gastroenterologist and she reported amazing results with a range of conditions both physical and mental in nature (we didn’t specifically speak of Autism at the time). I believe Dr. Thomas Borody in Australia is working on a paper for this procedure and their success with MS which will be out in a few years.

    Here are a few links to dig through:

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/230552.php

    http://journals.lww.com/jcge/Abstract/2004/07000/Bacteriotherapy_Using_Fecal_Flora__Toying_With.3.aspx

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2830587/?tool=pubmed

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20927962.600-faecal-transplant-eases-symptoms-of-parkinsons.html

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v479/n7374/full/nature10554.html

    http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/03/04/freakonomics-radio-the-power-of-poop/

    • Sullivan December 6, 2011 at 21:57 #

      Joe 23,

      let’s remind ourselves of what is being performed here:

      you collect the stool from a healthy relative (mother, father , so on) for a week in a bucket, no preservatives or cooling. Then mix well, fill in a decorating cone (that cloth cone you use to decorate a cake).
      Use the cone as an enema to empty all the content in the patient’s colon. The patient needs to hold that as long as possible.

      Are you claiming that (a) doing this yourself without the consult of a doctor and/or (b) using feces which have been sitting in a bucket for a week and (c) inserting these using cake decorator’s tools—is a good idea?

      Another of the discussions online about this was to get a naso-gastric tube from a veterinary supply store and use that, again in a “do it yourself, no doctors” way, to insert the fecal matter into a child’s stomach.

      Does that not raise a red flag or two?

      Perhaps you would like to be on topic before claiming that others are “nay sayers”.

  41. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. December 6, 2011 at 23:33 #

    Joe23: “I would get Dr. Natasha Campbell’s book (neurologist) called “Gut and Psychology Syndrome” for an overview of how flora can effect what is going on in the brain.”

    Oh shit …. says it all. Campbell isn’t liked in these parts….

  42. Joe23 December 7, 2011 at 05:39 #

    Sullivan,

    Where in any of my writing did you conclude that i endorsed collecting feces for a week and injecting all of that into someone without a doctors supervision? Where did you conclude that i said this would be okay to do on your own for an Autistic child without doctors supervision? That’s ridiculous. The clinic in Australia performing this uses the donor’s feces within an hour and only after it is thoroughly examined through stool testing and the donor has undergone strict blood screening. I said don’t scoff at this research, as it possibly holds the answers to many diseases…one of which could potentially be Autism. Wouldn’t keeping an open mind be a wise path to consider seeing as how the cure for Autism hasn’t been found yet?

    • Sullivan December 7, 2011 at 07:35 #

      Joe23,

      re-read my comment. Note that I posed a question. I did not state that those were your beliefs. However, in posing the question, I made it quite clear that you were dodging the actual issue presented. You were building a straw man.

      I’m glad you find it ridiculous. I am not impressed, again, with your ability to read what is clearly in front of you.

      “ouldn’t keeping an open mind be a wise path to consider seeing as how the cure for Autism hasn’t been found yet?”

      Odd how people keep throwing around the term “open mind” without an open mind themselves. What makes you think I don’t approach these issues with an open mind? Because I disagree with you? Or, more accurately, you perceive me as disagreeing with you by trying to reframe the discussion?

      “I said don’t scoff at this research”

      Once again, I point you to the post above. What research is there in this? Is there research involved in do-it-yourself medicine? That’s the article right in front of you. One which you don’t appear to have read. You are, once again, building a straw man.

      I’ve read a few of your links. They are not as pertinent to the discussion you were trying to have as you suggested. Providing links is easy. Actually adding to the discussion is much more difficult.

  43. Joe23 December 7, 2011 at 14:49 #

    Sullivan,

    The purpose of my links was to show that the flora in your digestive tract can have all types of systemic implications, including mental manifestations. The book i posted which is apparently “shitty” per davids comments goes into details about how bacterial byproducts can cause an array of problems in the body. But here are studies dealing with Autism and why this direction of research and study is worthwhile and probably holds many insights into the disease process (seeing as how my studies above weren’t up to par).

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Innate%20immunity%20associated%20with%20inflammatory%20responses%20and%20cytokine%20production%20against%20common%20dietary%20proteins%20in%20patients%20with%20autism%20spectrum%20disorder

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Focal-enhanced%20gastritis%20in%20regressive%20autism%20with%20features%20distinct%20from%20Crohn's%20and%20Helicobacter%20pylori%20gastritis

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Intestinal%20lymphocyte%20populations%20in%20children%20with%20regressive%20autism%3A%20evidence%20for%20extensive%20mucosal%20immunopathology

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1651-2227.1996.tb14220.x/abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Differences%20between%20the%20gut%20microflora%20of%20children%20with%20autistic%20spectrum%20disorders%20and%20that%20of%20healthy%20children

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Therapy%20and%20epidemiology%20of%20autism–clostridial%20spores%20as%20key%20elements

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16003132

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Spontaneous%20mucosal%20lymphocyte%20cytokine%20profiles%20in%20children%20with%20autism%20and%20gastrointestinal%20symptoms%3A%20mucosal%20immune%20activation%20and%20reduced%20counter%20regulatory%20interleukin-10

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Constipation%20with%20acquired%20megarectum%20in%20children%20with%20autism

    I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t be interested in the research that this area of study would bring up for Autism, and a whole host of other diseases. By saying that i don’t (like Sullen assumes) advocate collecting feces for a week and injecting it into an autistic kid…like i said before, ridiculous obviously. My point in entering the conversation was to show that this area (fecal transplants) of research holds real promise, and to not disregard it based on people chatting on forums about “do-it-at-home” procedures like the one posted above.

  44. Howard Lundy December 26, 2011 at 21:34 #

    It holds promise alright!

    A fecal transplant (FT) pretty much saved my uncle’s life. He had the C. diff colitis infection and was in progressive decline. About 3 days after the FT he started feeling normal again…. get the word out!

    Even Stephen Colbert reported on this new procedure… check it out here: http://fecaltransplant.info/fecal-transplant-therapy-mentioned-on-the-colbert-report/

  45. Liz Ditz December 26, 2011 at 22:11 #

    I suspect Howard Lundy used a search engine for “fecal transplant”, came up with this blog post, and nattered away without reading the original post or some of the subsequent comments.

    Yes, it looks like FT, used in a hospital setting, administered by competent, trained personnel may be an effective treatment for refractory C. Difficile infections.

    FT in do-it-yourself, at home “treatment” for autism is just cruel and inhuman experimentation on children — or child abuse.

  46. Chris December 27, 2011 at 07:40 #

    Mr. Lundy, do hospitals let the fecal matter ferment in a bucket for a week, and then use pastry bags normally used to decorate cakes?

    Folks, it is a good idea to actually read the entire article before commenting.

  47. Baj Ports October 30, 2012 at 09:17 #

    You might want to read some scientfic papers on the isuue before you poo poo the idea. “Neurobiological effects of intraventricular propionic acid in rats: Possible role of short chain fatty acids on the pathogenesis and characteristics of autism spectrum disorders”

    • Sullivan (Matt Carey) October 30, 2012 at 13:04 #

      In that paper do they discuss this as an at-home, do-it-yourself project? Did they let the feces sit in a bucket for a week?

      Did you read the paper you mention? How does applying an acid to the brains of rats have anything to do with fecal transplants on the GI systems of humans?

  48. Thomas June 5, 2014 at 20:38 #

    Funny reading old posts about fecal transplants. I bet you all changed your mind since and are loving collecting the poo from super healthy individuals.

    • Chris June 5, 2014 at 21:31 #

      Why? Have you read the article?

      Do you routinely collect poo, let is sit in a bucket for a week, place it in a pastry bag to squirt up your child’s bum?

    • Sullivan (Matt Carey) June 6, 2014 at 01:59 #

      You lose that bet.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Tweets that mention Autism Blog - Bring the crazy – Fecal Transplant « Left Brain/Right Brain -- Topsy.com - December 9, 2010

    […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Kev, Liz Ditz. Liz Ditz said: From @kevleitch Parents playing doctor in attempts to "cure" children with autism, http://bit.ly/igZr2E now with DIY fecal transplants. […]

  2. Therapies without Limit | Autism & Oughtisms - March 19, 2011

    […] I hear of a therapy that makes me wonder just how desperate and gullible some parents are, such as fecal transplants. I thought I was a desperate parent, but I will not try anything and everything in the unfounded […]

  3. Media Messages Reinforce Autism Myths, Stereotypes | International Coalition for Autism and All Abilities - December 9, 2013

    […] More sources:Light sentences for murders of autistic people Autism not caused by vaccines Family’s neighbor tells them to kill/euthanize autistic child for being annoying. Jim Sinclair–one autistic person’s perspective Dehumanization of autistic people due to dehumanizing rhetoric about autism Boy kills self in attempt to kill ” the bad guy” autism, more Harmful media commentary following Newtown tragedy Myths about autism and empathy Busting dangerous autism myths UK Facts and Myths campaign Influencing politics–Autism Speaks and Washington Listens–but to one agenda, not including autistics and families. Autism (and thereby autistic people) as a “drain” on families, society Dangerous procedures used on autistic people: Judge Rotenberg Center practices including skin shocks, chelation, bleach enemas, castration drugs, tape worms, oxygen chambers, others […]

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