David Kirby will be appearing on a US show ‘Meet The Press’ soon. There is already a ‘mobilisation’ from within the anti-thimerosal/mercury group to bombard the show’s feedback page with questions for his opponent from the IOM. I’d suggest that anyone who has some questions they’d like David Kirby to answer also post their messge. The address is here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/
Here’s what I submitted. I’m not sure how much weight a UK parent will carry though.
Mr Russert,
I understand the the author David Kirby will be a guest on your show in regard specifically to his book ‘Evidence of Harm’.
I should also mention that I am the UK parent of a classically autistic dughter of 5 years.
I’ve developed a very deep suspicion of David Kirby, his motives and the consequences of his book since its publication.
You may or may not know that the official website that supports the book (evidenceofharm.com) had its domain bought and administered at one time by the single-issue anti-mercury group SafeMinds. When this was noticed, control of the domain was quickly switched over to Mr Kirby. You should further know that the designer of the website itself is Wendy Fournier who is the President of the NAA, another anti-mercury activist. I often debate the issue of mercury in vaccines with Kirby’s supporters who claim that official studies that support the safety of thimerosal are paid for by shills with compromised impartiality. I’d like to know if David Kirby shares this view and if he does, how that stacks up against his own clear non-impartiality.
I’d also like to draw your attention to an open letter penned by another parent who like me, does not believe our childrens autism was caused by thimerosal or any other vaccine. It concerns the behaviour of certain people who promote David Kirby’s book on an email form that Kirby himself is a member of. You can find the letter here: http://www.neurodiversity.com/evidence_of_venom.html
David Kirby will no doubt make reference to the ‘autism epidemic’ but this epidemic almost certainly does not exist. New research states there probably is no ‘epidemic’ see: http://www.ont-autism.uoguelph.ca/fombonne-prevalence.html
You might also be interested in this site where David Kirby can be shown to have ‘flubbed’ on his intepretation of the latest autism figures: http://citizencain.blogspot.com/2005/07/kirby-flubs-autism-data.html
Kirby will also no doubt on Mercury’s undoubted role as a toxin. I’d be keen to discover what his thoughts are on the use of Warfarin in medicine.
In closing Mr Russert, I suspect you’re going to get a lot of comments from parents keen for you to praise Kirby and flame his opponent. I urge you not to do that. The whole issue of thimerosal in vaccines has been subject to some very bad science which has been repeated by Kirby. Ask to see his sources for studies he quotes and then do a simple check for the on the validity of those sources. They frequently don’t stand up to close scrutiny.
Autism is a serious matter for parents, serious enough to depend on decent science – please don’t go down the route of thinking that Kirby speaks for all, or even the majority, of parents of autistics because he doesn’t.
Thanks for your time.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Unfortunately I think the Brits aren’t going to get a strong say on this one seeing as Meet the Press is shown to a purely American audience (although excerpts are used by the major international news agencies. Nice try though.
I agree Leo, hopefully though they’ll still check out the links and form their own conclusions.
More importantly, they’ll check out the science and begin to get a clear picture…that there’s evidence of harm.
Erik seriously, if they check out the science, Kirby’s fucked.
Perhaps the fact that a “foreign national” was interested enough to write to them will give your email greater weight, Kevin.
The definitions of “autism” and “mercury poisoning” ought to be international, but as it stands, the US has its own (delirious) version of reality wherein autism is mercury poisoning (but then so are MS, diabetes and cancer). The idea is looking more and more insane all the time.
It would be great to see Kirby exposed as an opportunist. One can always hope.
I will be curious to see what kind of “scientific debate” takes place within the confines of a show like that.
In the past, I’ve tended to see the debate between health authorities and thimerosal opponents devolve into rhetoric and not a discussion of the facts.
Though your letter to russert makes good sense, I don’t think it will accomplish anything. Nothing will convince these people that thinmerosal did not cause their children’s autism in spite of there being no scientific evidence. In fact, i went to one of Kirby’s talks and asked him to explain the california data, i.e. why kids were coming into the system at much earlier ages and why that did not jibe with legislative changes, court decisions maikng getting a diagnosis of autism more favorable and as well as changes in the service structure in california rather than something in the environment. He just waltzed around my question. Clearly he never read the california reports and just researched one side of the question, so it is really futile. This is just another attempt for the parents involved in lawuits to manipulate public opinion to help bolster their groundless lawsuits. You can ask kirby and russert whatever you want, but Kirby will just dance around it.
Erik Nanstiel’s site (autismmedia.org) has a clip of Kirby on a regional news show that also features Paul Offit.
The twit of a news person said to Kirby, “Well we know that the rates of autism are the same in the UK and they have had the same amount of thimerosal… blah blah”
What kind of stupid statement was that? Kirby of course didn’t correct him and say, “well, actually those Brits, while they have the same rate of autism as the US they never used thimerosal the way we did here…”
On another topic, I was able to contact someone from the media who was at the “power of truth rally” and that person told me that at the upper limit, including the speakers, the press and children, the political leaches, all those…
there were 250, IF one was being generous, but it was more like 200.
I still think it was fewer, but I’m going to take this person’s word for it since s/he WAS THERE and is neither a habitually deceptive Mercury parent or a pharmco shill.
The story from the habitually deceptive mercury parents is that about 700 were there, just go see the home page for
autismrally.com
Some are honest enough to squish the number down to 350, which I think is double the number who were really there.
Go count the faces in the photos, I count about 90 or 100 different people, after that you start to see the same faces, distincitive purses, shoes and signs, over and over again in the various photos. Sometimes you see a person from the front and sometimes from the back, you might think it was two differnt people, unless you look closely at hair, etc.
I wish there was a satellite photo of the bunch of them at the rally site. The photos on the street and in plazas include tourists who just happened to be there.
I’m going to miss the “meet the press” tomorrow, but I suppose Erik will hijack it and put it on “autismmedia.org”.
Camille:
“The story from the habitually deceptive mercury parents ”
These people may be wrong, they may be looking for blame where there is none (and I’m not sure there is none. I’m sure Mercury isn’t the only cause of autism, but maybe for some of these people there’s some kind of genetic sensitivity to Mercury. Who knows?), but most of them really believe in this. They aren’t doing this for profit or anything. I can understand your anger toward people like Buttar and Kirby, but there’s no reason to be nasty to the parents.
Camille’s quote is just an example. The comments here are full of venom like that.
Its not a question of profit Emmanuel, its a question of how ultimately fed up and annoyed one becomes as either an autistic or parent to an autistic at seeing yourselves or your kids habitually misrepresented.
Autism is portrayed as ‘epidemic’, ‘evil’, ‘plague’ – I, for one, am utterly fed up of hearing my daughter associated with that sort of language and terminology.
Autistics have been described by these people as:
“government mercury vaccine poisoned kids” (EOH message 97)
“Parent’s Worst Nightmare Syndrome PWNS or Living Hell” (EOH message 418)
“an equal opportunity disaster” (EOH message 543)
“walking bio-hazards” (EOH message 1469)
I know you have a nephew who’s autistic. Is this how you think of him?
The constant belittling of autistics is shameful. Sometimes we get angry too.
They certainly are hysterical and wildly exaggerate when they describe autism as all those things you mentioned. I’m not criticizing you for voicing your anger about the misrepresentation of autism. The comments here are usually to the point – debating these claims. The problem is when these parents are presented as devious anti-autistics.
And no, that isn’t what I think of my nephew.
I was not impressed w/”Dr Fineberg” and his comments concerning the autism epidemic.
Fineberg is your typical bureaucratic yes man, skirting around direct questions addressed to him from Mr Russett and Mr Kirby, concerning this issue. We have a son afflicted w/this dreaded disease, prior to the immunization he was a healthy boy now he lacks social skills, he also struggles to read and write. We have no doubt in our minds that as a result of the state mandated immunizations our son was crippled.
The government oddly enough removed thimerosal from animal vaccines before they removed it from our children’s vaccines, we have an entire generation of children crippled by this.
Instead of our government helping these angels the federal government attempts to eliminate any legal remedy for the parents by use of the Patriots Act, they provide high ranking positions to the former CEO of pharmaceutical companies, there was a former president siting on the board of a pharmaceutical company and even the present Defense Secretary was a former official of a pharmaceutical company, do any of their children or grandchildren suffer from this disease, we need to remedy this and help those children.
You see Emmanuel? Above is exactly the sort of generalising comment degrading autistics that gets right on my nerves. ‘dreaded disease’ and ‘crippled’.
I read the transcript of the show and have to say it sounded like a very dull interview. Kirby was questioned on none of his sources and was allowed to paint himself as the parents representative. Funny that there was no autistic representative eh?
I did fond it interesting that Kirby attempted to distance himself from RFK Jr’s recent self-inflicted foot-shooting though.
Nothing really new here though was there.
Kev’s right – the interview with Fineberg and Kirby was the journalistic equivalent to “watching paint dry”. To say there was nothing new would be a major understatement.
Of course, the anti-thimerosal crew is having a field day on the Yahoo! EOHarm group, as if David Kirby should’ve won a Nobel Prize or something.
“Kirby was questioned on none of his sources and was allowed to paint himself as the parents representative.”
David Kirby makes no secret of his sources…they’re well documented in his book. If you want to attack something…attack his sources. Not as easy as it sounds.
As for being a representative…he DOES represent many parents and their concerns. My regret for his appearance is that he didn’t expound on the specific flaws in each of the epidemiological studies that Fineberg so heavily relied on. It is a shame that the Burbacher primate study wasn’t published prior to the IOM’s meeting.
Perpetually misleading parents, habitually misleading parents, what was it I said?
If you immerse yourself in all their rheotoric, which settles into about 4 or 5 typical monologues as I have… I have read a million lines of text from parents and the EoH book and various webistes.
I find them consistently mush mouthed, double tounged and deceptive. A good example is how the autismrally.com page implies that 700 parents showed up for the rally.
Interestingly, if it was a rally of autistic adults someone would have scrupulously counted, NO, actually several people there would have scrupulously counted, and then there would be an emotional argument on whether or not it truly was 162 or 163 that met for the rally. But NO one would dream of lying about the nuumber and inflating it by 50 to 200%.
I have become used to precision and honesty in dealing with my friends and online autistic acquaintances.
They don’t fib and they don’t fudge. The key mercury parents gladly lie about whatever they think will give them more credibility. It’s that they are lying or they are so ignorant of science that they ought to know how ignorant they are and not making definitive statements like “all autism is is mercury poisoning”.
They misrepresesnt the Burbacher study which doesn’t make thimerosal look like a hideous poison, they misrepresent the Hornig study in the most egregious way and then misrepresent the criticism of it and laugh at the straw man’s criticism.
They misrepresent the text of the Simpsonwood meeting, they misrepresent glutathione (or they just don’t know what they are talking about and shouldn’t be talking about it).
They mock and insult scientists who come up with new evidence that the genes responsible for autism don’t have a thing to do with autoimmune or detoxifying heavy metals.
They refuse to admit how common mercury has been in our lives forever and how all medicines are toxins.
They refuse to admit you can’t take a normal kid and make him an aspie at age 8 with a flu shot.
They misrepresent the numbers from the USDE IDEA and when told that they are misrepresenting them they ignore the warning and keep lying about the numbers. They misrepresent the California numbers. They refuse to discuss the Australia numbers and the status of the rest of the world vis a vis autism and thimerosal exposure.
LYING! They are lying. I’m not going to say that they aren’t lying when they ARE lying. There has been no autism epidemic, they lie and say there are only a few adults with autism. It’s a lie.
They buy lying lab reports and then spread the results as truth, but its more lies.
They buy lies from Buttar who is selling stuff that isn’t FDA approved and probably has never been tested at all. Buttar only has the most vague references to using it on some kids and how they all go better.
They buy the lie that DMPS can be transdermal. They buy the lie that there was no regressive autism before thimerosal. They used to lie all the time that mercury was the second most toxic element on earth, but after I and others kept telling them that it wasn’t and mocking them for being so stupid, they stopped saying that. But David Kirby has that lie in his book.
They lyingly say that there is “aborted fetal tissue” in vaccines.
They lyingly say that Kev and I and others are paid reps from “big pharma”. They lyingly deny how much help they are getting from the ambulence chasers who are the ones who “discovered” the old information about thimerosal being used on dogs, etc.
The lying lawyers got into Merk’s files and pulled out the worst stuff about thimerosal, Kirby describes them doing that.
But what did those sleazy lawyers find that exonerated thimerosal, but they aren’t mentioning? Who knows?
I don’t have the money to hire lawyers and I don’t have the time to be making FOIA requests.
I could call them all ignorant, idiotic and stupid. But I prefer to think of them as smart enough, but lying through their teeth.
The above comment does not necessarily represent the beliefs and experiences of Kevin, the blog host.
“They used to lie all the time that mercury was the second most toxic ELEMENT on earth”
oooops, mistake, they used to say that mercury was the second most toxic SUBSTANCE on earth.
That’s what is in the Kirby book and on various autism/mercury websites.
“David Kirby makes no secret of his sources…they’re well documented in his book. If you want to attack something…attack his sources. Not as easy as it sounds.”
Clearly you didn’t read what I wrote. I didn’t say he made a secret of them, I said he wasn’t questioned about them.
Numerous people have successful attacked them, trouble is Kirby (despite Bush-esque ‘Bring it on’ statements) lacks the balls to talk about it with any of us – guess we’re not important enough to get his mug on telly.
Kevin, if you think you’ve got the chops to debate Kirby on television…try to approach a few talk shows. If they’ll have you and it’s a big enough audience…I think Kirby would attend.
Personally, I have an opinion on the outcome of such a meeting…
And Camille…you’re so venomous and vehemently opposed to the “safer vaccines” crowd…you’re beginning to sound conspiratorial. I can tell you that all the parents who rally behind “Evidence of Harm” do so because they genuinely believe the lab and clinical science that is pointing the finger at mercury toxicity. NONE of these parents are “liars” as you brand them. They report their observations…they do their own research…and they state their beliefs.
You have issues Camille…and you’re not as rational as you think.
Why does it have to be on TV Erik? I find it fascinating that that seems to be the ‘price of admission’. You would think it would be enough to actually be invloved in the situation. But no, its all about getting Dave on telly right?
Several people, including me, have taken Kirby to task. Why do you think it is that he never answers? He likes to have a friendly host like Ismus or Montel and he likes to get his face on the screen and he doesn’t seem to have any answer to those of us who don’t agree with him.
Honestly, the amount he likes to get on TV anyone would think he had some magic beans to sell or a book to promote or something.
I happened upon this blog and wanted to comment on a couple of poster’s offense to autism being referred to as a “dreaded disease” or that children are crippled by autism. As a mother of a 6 year old autistic boy, i honestly cannot understand your offense. OF COURSE I love my child for all that he is. He is a beautiful ,loving boy, with many gifts to give to the world. i accept his autism and am not bitter about it. but i also know the struggles it has brought to my life and his. the strains to my marriage with an uninvolved father, how it affects the life of our younger son, how it has impacted us financially ,etc. while I certainly love my child completely and unconditionaly , I think it would be dishonest to say that if God had presented me with a choice before he was born that i probably would have chosen to have a typically developed child. But, I don’t find the term crippled offensive, but rather the defensiveness towards that terminology. just because someone may be “crippled” by a disorder or actual physical deformity, doesn’t make them any less valuable a person. IMO, those words aren’t what is offensive…one’s inability to recognize something for what it is because of some stigma or whatever IS.(sorry for any typos…my spacebar and a fewother keysare sticking!)–Christine
I appreciate your opinion Christine but cannot share it.
The stigma associated with such words is unfortunately real and serious. I would ask you to perform this simple test – go to any chat room or forum that caters primarily to adults of any group of people considered disabled and ask them how they feel about being referred to as ‘cripples’ or ‘diseased’.
The issue is not just one of love – I’ve no doubt you love your kids just as much as I love mine – but one of respect and confidence.
I see I’ve gotten in way over my head here. Someone should make a documentary about all of this and call it “The Civil War of the Autistic Community”. I’m not kidding, and I don’t mean to offend anyone either. Even though I’ve looked through dozens of websites these last few weeks, apparently I’m far from understanding the scope and emotions involved in this debate.
You should understand that I’m closer to your position than to the anti-thimerosal position. I haven’t been totally convinced one way or another, but I am inclined to think there’s some kind of genetic-mercury combo in at least some case of autism (which, as far as I can tell, most of you think is plausible). But I still don’t believe anyone in this debate, including the ones I think are full of bullshit, is doing anything out of bad intentions. Maybe these people are lying to themselves because they’re so convinced in something wrong. Maybe the anti-thimerosal people are calling you liars and claiming you read the research the way you want, exactly like you say about them. But maybe I don’t know enough about all this…
I agree with Christine. While I don’t agree that autism is a dreaded disease (it isn’t a disease, but it is dreaded by an ignorant public), I do see it as an emotional handicap. In the most severe cases, autistics are cripples. In most cases “cripple” is too strong a word, but moderate autism is undeniably a handicap.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you Emmanuel. Autism can be looked on as a disability – but the question needs to be asked: who is it doing the disabling?
If my daughter or your nephew starts stimming in the middle of the local Supermarket and we all start to get The Look (I’m sure you know what I mean) then who’s disabling who? People who witness stimming make a whole series of judgements about the person stimming. I know this as I’ve heard them and I bet you have too. Very very often these judgements are incorrect. In this instance, its the onlookers disabling the autistic that is where the bulk of the issue lies.
At the core of my beliefs – listen to autistics _first_ when discussing things to do with autism.
I agree – listen to the autistics first. But is there a consensus among them?
I have the feeling The Look actually hurts the parents more than it bothers the autistic child. You could say that when others don’t accept autistic behavior like flapping or staring at a fan for hours, society does the disabling. But the real emotional disability stems mainly from not being able to read social situations: a person who can’t tell when someone is angry with him, or takes phrases and jokes literally, among other things.
Here’s an example from my nephew. He’s five and has a one year old sister. He sticks his face in hers, foreheads touching. Unintentionally, he does it aggressively so it bothers her and may even hurt her, and she starts hitting him on the head and he thinks she’s petting him so he keeps doing it. He can do the same sort of thing with a kid his own age, but a kid he’d do that to can either beat him up or not want to hang out with him. My nephew now actually enjoys the company of other kids, but he can drive all his friends away. You can demand that adults accept his behavior, but you can’t do that with normal 5-year olds. So it’s certainly a disability caused by autism or its symptoms and not by intolerant society.
I don’t suppose there is _total_ consensus amongst autistics on _all_ issues, that would be rare for any group of people but within the Neurodiversity movement, the consensus is generally one of ‘nothing about us, without us’ which sounds entirely fair and is definitely something I personally agree with.
The examples you’re giving Emmanuel are from autistic _kids_ which I agree are important and must be addressed – nd are through a range of interventions that actually _work_ but the wider issue of autistic advocacy is that, contrary to Kirby et al’s beliefs there is a very sizable adult autistic population who cannot and should not be ignored.
No one is saying ‘dont help autistics’ because in some instances autistics need help. What we are saying is ‘don’t ignore autistics’ when it comes to matters regarding the way autism is portrayed or stigmatised.
Kev, maybe you and I are speaking of two different things. yes, if you are referring to the autistic individual as “crippled” because they do not act the same way ,stim ,or whatever, YES I do disagree with that. but, for example, my son is VERY limited in his speech. He can only express basic wants and needs and repeat things that others say. he cannot form his own sentences, lacks understanding of basic language concepts, and much of the speech he does have is unclear to others that do not know him. there are a whole host of issues we deal with regarding safety as well. So in those two specific examples, yes my son is”crippled”,imo.
It was you who said: “I know you have a nephew who’s autistic. Is this how you think of him?” So that is partly what i am referring to. It came across to me that being “crippled” in some form or another, be it emotionally or physically, cannot be accepted and is an offensive way of referring to someone with a disability. i’m just saying we as a society need to get over all of our stigmas and reevaluate how we place value on human life. maybe then it wouldn’t be so hurtful to someone with a disability to say ,”yes ,I may be “crippled” by this or that, but that is only part of who i am as a human being and doesn’t make me any less worthy of love and respect.
I wasn’t going to get into the whole thimerosal debate, as much as I want to… but i cant help myself really. I don’t believe it is the cause of autism for EVERYONE and I do believe there is probably a genetic predisposition that accompanies it. But the fact that mercury is a known neurotoxin and we have allowed it to be placed in our vaccines as a matter of money and convenience is appalling to me, regardless of whether it causes autism or not. mercury IS a neurotoxin! Is not autism a NEUROLOGICAL disorder??!! Pregnant women are cautioned not to eat too much fish during pregnancy, environmentalists fight against toxins like mercury in our environment, we don’t even use mercury thermometers anymore, but somehow if mercury is in a vaccine it is “safe”. With all of our medical advancements, if the pharma companiesi nsist on using multi-dose vials, I can’t believe they can’t come up with s omething other than mercury for a preservative.
Myin-laws sent an article from their local paper,(well it was actually in part, letters to the editor). One nurse told of a clinic she used to work for in, IbelieveAtlanta, where nurses were not shaking the vials up each time they collected a dose. Naturally if this happens the mercury sinks to the bottom and the last doses in the vial would be more highly concentrated and toxic. I wouldn’t be surprised if simple negligence such as this were not more than a rare occurance.
The pro-thimerosal crowd never addresses the fact that as other countries have adopted our vaccination schedule, their rates of autism have similarly increased. Or how China, who had virtually no problem with autism, after importing vaccine from our country now has an explosion in autism.
I also totally reject the “we are just better at dignosing autism now” argument that I hear so often… if that were the case where are all of the 20…30…40 year old autistics who have struggled all of these years without knowing what was wrong, but are now getting diagnosed? if they are out there I sure haven’t met them or heard anything reported.
I also feel that science can be manipulated, by both sides. Many of the so called “new” studies discounting the autism/vaccine/mercury connection have not been “new” studies at all, but reviews performed of OLD studies and OLD data and drawing conclusions f rom them… performed by people with a financia l stake in a desired result.
Anyway, I’m sure that I’ll be slaughtered for my stance, but there it is anyway! lol
Christine
No one’s going to slaughter you Christine. There are answers to your points and I’ll get back to you ASAP.
Kevin, the whole point of having a debate on television is to reach as many people as possible. If you have the stronger argument…you must have a champion that is willing to shoot down Kirby in front of the world and put the controversy to rest, right?
Dismissing public fora as debate centers makes me wonder how confident you are of success. Why NOT on T.V.? (setting aside your disdain of promoting book sales for the other guys)
Its not a question of being a drama queen Erik. Points have been made and it seems Kirby can’t answer them.
Why *ONLY* TV? It may amaze you to learn that being on TV, even in US celebrity obsessed culture really doesn’t automatically confer an air of legitimacy. And is some peoplpes cases it merely makes one look grasping and opportunistic.
Answering points online is as easy as falling off a log. I still wonder why it is that Kirby’s happy to boast on the Huffington Blog but unable to back anything up elsewhere online. I did enjoy his distancing himself from RJK Jr though, didn’t you?
Erik
If Kirby would discuss the “science” he points to on an internet forum, many people would be able to read it and quote it, and we wouldn’t have to wait for tv time slot. It might even get him some more book sales.
He will not do an internet discussion that gets down to the brass tacks of molecular biology or stats because he can’t do it.
He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He doesn’t know the science.
He said that he didn’t act like an investigative reporter in writing the book because the Safe Minds group had already done all the digging for him and just handed him their documents, from which he compiled his book.
HIS description of what he did, not mine.
If you have been told,and many of you (mercury parents) have been told that the lab results are questionable, and they absolutely are questionable, but you go around stating them as fact to prove your point… then you are not lying in the same way as making stuff up entirely, but you are flinging around non-facts, which is essentially the same thing.
Are you willing Erik to do some testing of the labs?
How about if you get a grant from some of your rich friends like Blaxill and Bernard to buy up a bunch of test kits and send a bunch of labs identical divided samples of hair, urine and feces?
No? Nobody wants to know how inaccurate those labs are.
As for the numbers of autistics in China.
Where are these numbers coming from? I can’t find them!
Christine,
I suspect that the statement that there are millions of new Chinese autistic children that were made that way by thimerosal containing vaccines is another lie.
See the pattern?
If the facts don’t support your reality, then just make up some lies to support them.
While we are at it Christine, tell us why no one but the Americans blame mercury for their autism “epidemics” and increases.
Tell us why there are so few reported autistics in France, but far more in surrounding countries?
Tell us why there is no evidence of mercury caused damage in the brains of autistics?
Tell us why the Hornig mice who were overdosed with thimerosal didn’t have any signs of brain damage that are likelwise found in autistics?
Tell us all about the brain overgrowth and increased skull size and how that is caused by mercury. OK?
Tell us all about the external physical differences that are more common in autism and tell us how they are caused by mercury.
Tell us all about glutathione and the James study, please?
Or mabye someone will get the dear Mr. Kirby to answer some of these questions in detail.
We saw him make vague references to the biological science that shows thimerosal probably causes autism… wanna bet he doesn’t understand the papers he refers to?
No, he just tells us that they support his view.
How convenient.
I want to know who paid him for his time spent on that show. He said months back that he wasn’t going to speak any more on autism without getting paid for it. Who paid hm to speak at the rally?
As for “issues”, Erik, darling. I have autism issues, one of them is a demand for precision and for accuracy. Another is the demand for proper categorization.
Autistics are labeled as “moralistic”.
One of my big issues is that I hate lying.
I see you aren’t defending you crowd against any of the accusations of lying I made, except the one about quoting false lab numbers.
I don’t care if people are lying to get money to take care of their children – who need care – it’s still lying and others are harmed by the lies that they tell.
I see that Dr. Clark is taking chemotherapy for his lung cancer produced by evil “big pharma”, why isn’t he getting chelated by Dr. Buttar? Dr. Buttar cures the worst cases of cancer, ask him. He takes the intractable cases and cures them with vitamins and coffee enemas. Would you go to Buttar if you had cancer like Dr. Clark?
I wish Dr. Clark a speedy recovery, I hope he sticks with the evil big pharma and their evil toxic drugs and gets better.
http://www.autismmedia.org/media11.html
Erik has hijacked the MTP interview and put it on his site… or maybe they gave him permission and it isn’t pirated at all.
Damn Camille…
Your tone really is quite rude. I have to get to work but my question to you is WHY is mercury, a known neurotoxin, suddenly not capable of causing damage to the brain if it is a child with autism?
One of the first things i stated was that i didn’t think it was the ONLY cause of autism. But why it’s ok to put a neurotoxin in a vaccine which when given multiple vaccines, the cummulative levels of mercury exposure are far above what deemed “safe” by the CDC, is beyond me.
Anyway, your snotty condesending attitude is why I hesitate to get too involved in chat rooms/blogs/messageboards. If you don’t want to believe there is a connection with mercury and autism, that’s fine, i t’s your opinion. but at least have the guts to explain to me, in general terms, aside from the autism debate, just why mercury is classified as a neurotoxin, and what it does to the body if exposed/overexposed to it. After doing that, I don’t think it is fair for you to question MY opinion, that given the known toxitity of this heavy metal, it is not all unreasonable to suspect a connection.
Camille, FAIR’s usage of those media clips is quite legal under U.S. copyright law. But I’m sure you’re wishing it wasn’t…
Hi Erik,
You are so right. I had images of you being hauled before a magistrate, etc.
But then I can copy anything I want from your website, right?
I mean so long as I don’t sell it.
Rats Christine,
Sorry about the tone. If you see your people slapped around and stomped on enough in the press by people wearing saintly expressions of parental devotion you might get a little snotty, too.
Deary me, you might even get a little, shall we say, “uppity” besides that climbing on a high-horse and get disgusted and repulsed by the lies.
First of all to get all into the “neurotoxin” mindset of the mercury parents you have to NOT KNOW that mercury is ubiquitous. That means it’s everywhere.
Mercury has been around humanity for millennia. But suddenly when the way autistics are being counted differently so that it looks like there are many more of them, mercury becomes a “neurotoxin” above all other neurotoxins.
And it becomes a purely a neurotoxin, no longer just a plain ole’ toxin that destroys kidney cells, too, when a person is exposed at “toxic” levels.
If you know one thing about the brains of autistics, that is, the structure of their brains.
What is it?
Can you comment on the density of their cortical minicolumns and can you comment on the enlarged and then smaller amygdalas (in boys over time), can you comment on the smaller corpus calossi (? calossums?) . Can you talk about the differences in their brain stems? A little word from you on the superior olive?
Tell us why -almost entirely- no one but Americans are using chelation to treat autism??? I’m dying to hear the answer. Please don’t skip over this question, no one has answered it.
Do you know anything about the work of Dr. Patricia Rodier? Eric Courchesne? Manuel Casanova? How about the cognitive work of Dr. Mottron, the epidemiology of Dr. Fombonne? The amygdala measuring of Amaral? Read the new work by Bertone?
Have you read “Three Reasons not to Believe in an Autism Epidemic” by Gernsbacher et al. You can read it on autismdiva.blogspot.com you can do a search there.
If you knew anything about structure or measurable function of autistic brains you too would think:
MERCURY???? What in the name of perdition does thimerosal have to do with it? This stuff is formed at the embroyological stage, when the kid is the size of a lima bean.
The mercury parents want thimerosal to be responsible for thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of auttistics but then they admit that maybe it’s just a tiny beensy fraction of kids who are actually made autistic by mercury, because you can see the vast majority of them got that way when they were only a few days post-conception old and the majority have parents with either ASDs or are Broad autism phenotype or have some mental illness that might be related genetically, like OCD or bipolar or social anxiety.
I don’t know how to say it nice.
The thimerosal hypothesis is PATHETIC!
That was me screaming the word “pathetic”, while stomping my feet up here on my soapbox that is on on top of my high horse.
I know the science – the science doesn’t support the simplistic “neurotoxin” in vaccines theory as having a thing to do with autism.
But if you read the words of Blaxill, Bernard, Kirby and the rest, you will be misled by the sincerity or faked sincerity of it and you wont’ look any further, at least that’s my impression.
Kids regress even when not exposed to mercury
and here’s a new fact I just got a MIND institute doc.
8.8% of all American parents of newly diagnosed kids with autism use potentially dangerous alt med treatments for their kid’s autism. Some of those 8.8% arent’ doing chelation but other potentially dangerous alt med treatments. (he cited Levy, 2003)
So lets say 8% of all American parents of autistic kids are doing chelation… BUT not all of them are having success, now are they?
Not so huge a number are buying the lie or the Buttar cream.
Approximately 92% of American parents of autistic kids are NOT doing chelation or pretend chelation (Buttar’s tddmps) !! yeah!
Approximately 100% of the rest of the parents in the world aren’t using chelation on their kids!! Alright!
Camille, I get the point you’re trying to make, but whatever you do, I trust will be legal and ethical.
Camille, I am going to continue to produce educational media on the biomedical aspects of autism until I’m either dead, or we’ve cured our children and prevented the regression of countless others. And we’re going to continue to do it legally, as we do now. So forget any fantasies you have about our giving up or being “hauled” off.
We’re never going to stop. And no amount of word-twisting or misrepresentation and quoting out of context on your part is going to amount to much more than the lint I have in my pocket.
Now, if you don’t mind, I won’t be returning for awhile. I’ve got a few dozen more interviews that need processing…
I hope you’ll enjoy them. 🙂
Rats,
Erik never answered one of my points based on science, he just got defensive about his use of other people’s copyright material.
Erick come back, lets talk glutathione. Erik? Please?
Cortical mincolumns?
I guess he’s too busy to read the science.
I’m new to these blogs, but boy Kev, it does get quite nasty, doesn’t it? This is why I do my own thing…I think I’d burst a blood vessel having to mediate this…
I forgot to ask Erik exactly what he thought I was twisting and how it was that I was supposed to be twisting it or “quoting out of context”, because I’d love to discuss it with him.
I listed all the stuff that they lie about and he doesn’t defend a word, but vaguely says that I “twist” things and “quote out of context”.
Anyone else want to point out what I didn’t get right, because I’d like to know.
“Camille, I am going to continue to produce educational media on the biomedical aspects of autism until I’m either dead, or we’ve cured our children and prevented the regression of countless others.”
You forgot ‘or proved wrong’ Erik. But I suspect no amount of proof would ever be enough for you would it? You made up your mind long ago and every bit of science in the world won’t sway you from your beliefs.
EriK: every child that dies or is injured as a result of not having vaccines is partly your responsibility. Maybe you should video that.
Christine – mercury is a neurotoxin, yes. It is also dangerous, yes. But does it _cause autism_ ? So far, the science says ‘no’.
Look at it like this – there may be a link between mercury and autism. That link however is _not causative_ . The difference is very important. The day before my daughter recieved her diagnosis we took her to the Zoo. That means there’s now a link between Zoo’s and autism. However that link is also _not causative_ . I hope you can see why the distinction is important. Its also the big secret of the anti-vaccination brigade. There’s no credible science to illustrate any causative link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism whatsoever and the only study which came close was riddled with so many errors the people who performed it had their protocol suspended and their findings trashed as well as drawing an official rebuke from the FDA.
I’m afraid your point about their being no adult autistics is simply untrue. You’re talking to at least 3, possibly 4 in this very post. There are also literally hundreds of online communities that I know of dedicated to adult and teen autistics. Here’s just two:
http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com (657 members)
http://www.wrongplanet.com (over 800 members)
And here’s the Adult Autistics Picture Project:
http://www.isn.net/~jypsy/AuSpin/a2p2.htm
Recent studies have also concluded that the best place to search for adult autistics is in University records.
They exist Christine. And their existence is the second big secret of the anti-thimerosal brigade. They refuse to acknowledge these people as its a serious spoke in their theory.
You see, the anti-thimerosal people love to talk up the autism ‘epidemic’, they love to band about the figure of 1 in 166 kids are now autistic. The problem with that figure is that it stems from the California statistics. And California state that their figures cannot accurately reflect prevelance. Here’s exactly what they had to say:
“Although the source of information for many reports on autism for California is the Department of Developmental Services (DDS)’ “Quarterly Client Characteristics Report”, the numbers reported by DDS are often misunderstood and misrepresented by others. Except for Table 2 of the Report, only persons with a Client Development Evaluation Report (CDER) on file who have “active” status in the DDS system are counted in the report tables. So, numbers reported do not represent all persons with developmental disabilities in the State of California. The numbers can not be used to report the incidence of autism, for example.”
Source.
On the other hand there are several, well established studies both complete and ongoing that _do_ back up the idea that the greater amount of autistics is down to better diagnosis. You can find details of these studies here, here, here, here, here and here amongst others.
No one is claiming there aren’t more autistics Christine. What we are saying is that there is no large scale increase in prevelance. Certainly a belief on your part (or Kirby’s or anyone elses) that there is no relationship doesn’t contradict any of these studies.
And so we have to weigh the evidence.
Are there any peer reviewed journal published studies that show an increase in prevelance of autism? No.
Are there are any peer reviewed journal published studies that show an increase in better diagnostics and a widening of diagnostic criteria? Yes, several.
Are there any peer reviewed journal published studies that show thimerosal in vaccines causes autism? No.
Are there any peer reviewed journal published studies that show no correlation between thimerosal in vaccines and autism? Yes, several.
Its at this point, when science has failed them, that the anti-thimerosal people turn to accusations of ‘big pharma shill’. Erik who comments several times in this thread has accused me personally of having several online identities without a shred of evidence, solely because his argument is too weak to support itself.
Its a shame that it has to come to such patheticness and its even more of a shame for those babies who die as a result of their parents listening to people like Erik telling them vaccines are evil and ‘weapons of mass destruction’.
I find it funny that every time I’ve had a discussion with a parent who uses biomedical interventions for their children, their last defense is always the conspiracy theory. In the end, I always ask why most of the scientific community, especially those at major universities that study autism, say there is no scientific studies proving alternative treatments work. The answer always comes back to fear of lawsuits, pediatricians in the drug companies pocket, etc. Another popular line is “there is still thimerosal in the shots, the drug companies don’t want the incidence of autism to correspond with the removal of thimerosal too closely.”
Regarding the California DDS reports, its numbers show that the Dept. of Developmental Services serves several thousand autistic adults in California. The numbers of adults would not include those who have sufficient skills or family resources not to need DDS services, or who are excluded due to an Asperger’s diagnosis even if they do need supportive services.
Anne
Kev-
I never said that I didn’t think there were any adult autistics. WhatI am saying is that if it were a matter of better diagnosis, we would see a large number of NEWLY DIAGNOSED adult autistics who slipped through the radar all of these years, but finally know what is wrong with them.THAT is what I don’t see. There has to be a reason for this recent increase in autism. The adult autistics that I have met were all diagnosed in childhood. Do I think that the 1 in 166 figure is a little suspect? Yes. But I do believe that the increase in autism is significant enough to cause alarm. And most of them that I come in contact with through our school system, are not of the high-functioning/Asperger’s end, but are severely afflicted as my son is.
I also never claimed to be anti-vaccine. This is another common misrepresentation by YOUR side of the issue. Only a couple of the parents who are concerned about the thimerosal/vaccine connection with autism have stopped or not vaccinated their children. Our 2nd child who is 3 is now fully vaccinated. We did choose to space things out on a different schedule, and I would not allow any vaccines with thimerosal to be used. We have declined the chicken pox vaccine as I think it’s a bit unnecessary-not out of fear of vaccine. Ijust don’t see anything tragic about possibly getting the chicken pox. They require it in the US now when you enter school or daycare. Since I am a stay at home mom and work after my husband gets home, we will wait until preschool or kindergarten for that. We have also not given him a flu shot. Other than that, both of our sons are up to date on their vaccines.
I am too young to have lived through polio epidemic. But I understand the importance of vaccination. Especially in this age of radical-islamic terrorism. I fear that this could be one way that we could be attacked. But I am concerned with the number of vaccines injected in young developing bodies, that there may be a breaking point. Vaccines, aside from this debate, just as anything else, are not free from risk.
I am generally not a big conspiracy theorist. I recognize that the pharma companies have produced many valuable medicines that have saved lives and improved the health of countless people. But I also think there is a”dark side” if you will. The way prozac, paxil, zoloft, and the like are practically handed out like candy. What I see as an over-diagnosis of ADD/ADHD,which makes the pharma co’s alot of money when Dr’s prescribe these drugs. Thimerosal in vaccines is obviously another issue for me.
Your analogy of going to the zoo a day before being diagnosed doesn’t make sense to me. To take it a step further…Say I go to the zoo, slip, and sprain my ankle. Unless the zoo was negligent in some manner by not keeping the place clean or whatever…it wouldn’t be fair to blame the zoo. You can fall and sprain yourankle anywhere. It doesn’t make the zoo inherently unsafe. However, there is no safe place for mercury. You acknowledge that mercury is a neurotoxin and that it is unsafe. Those on “your” side never address just what you think mercury is doing to the brain. It’s talking on both sides of your mouth,imo, to say,yes it’s a neurotoxin, it’s unsafe…but when put in a vaccine…WELL now, that’s another matter…it’s suddenly harmless.
I feel like I always have to repeat myself….I also never said that I thought it was the SINGLE cause of autism for anyone/everyone. I think there are other factors involved. I had a high risk pregnancy and became pre-eclampsic. Jacob was born 5 1/2 weeks premature. I believe he probably wasn’t getting enough oxygen in his brain during my pregnancy. I’m sure contributed as well. But I also know, that despite his pre-maturity, he gained weight and doubled hisbirth weight as he should have. He met all of the milestones (crawling, sitting,standing, etc) along with his chronological age (notadjusted down 5 1/2 weeks). Walking was only very slightly delayed. He cruised along furniture at 11-12 months, butdidn’t fully walk on his own until 14 months. Speech started off ok. Mamma, dadda, and animal sounds…But after 1 year nothing. So I do not think that his autism was entirely caused by my high risk pregnancy or his prematurity either. It doesn’t explain why he tested high in various toxic metals, including mercury. Just because my son may have had some sort of predisposition towards autism, it doesn’t make it ok for him to be further poisoned with mercury because a pharma co. doesn’t want to make single dose vials or come up with some other means of preservation.
I also resent the hostility to chelation. Is it a cure-all for everyone’s autism? NO. Does it have it’s risks, yes. But so does chemotherapy,and if you had cancer, you wouldn’t go without chemo. Do SOME parents try chelation,yet continue with it even when there are no true results. YES.But do I think it helps some kids? Absolutely. Do I think it helped my son? Yes. I did alot of research before we began chelation. We followed the procedures to the letter,and had him tested monthly. If there was any sign it was harming his liver and kidneys, I would have stopped it immediately. We did quit chelation, not because I don’t think it helped, we just couldn’t afford it any longer. I also had a bit of a problem with his Dr. and didn’t want to continue with chelation with him….that is another longstory and I’ve written long enough. But my point is that Iresent how “your side” belittles and flames those who don’t share your point of view. That somehow we can’t be trusted to understand the difference between normal/temporary regression in a child’s development and sudden/complete loss of skills almost immediately following vaccination. Are some parents too wrapped up in emotion and looking for answers to their child’s utism that they don’t think things through or see them for what they are? Certainly. But that is not me, nor most parents of autistics that I know.
.
“I never said that I didn’t think there were any adult autistics. WhatI am saying is that if it were a matter of better diagnosis, we would see a large number of NEWLY DIAGNOSED adult autistics who slipped through the radar all of these years, but finally know what is wrong with them.THAT is what I don’t see. There has to be a reason for this recent increase in autism. The adult autistics that I have met were all diagnosed in childhood.”
And I didn’t say these people were all diagnosed in childhood. At least one person in this thread has yet to get a formal diagnosis at the age of 30+ a _lot_ of the people at the forums I mentioned are in the same boat. I’m sorry Christine, just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there.
“I also never claimed to be anti-vaccine. This is another common misrepresentation by YOUR side of the issue.”
I don’t recall suggesting you did. However its unfortunately true that a lot of the anti-thimerosal groups have become mouthpieces for anti-vaccers. Erik above for example has this for download on his website. Note it uses the word ‘vaccine’ not ‘thimerosal’ or even ‘mercury’.
Have a read of this to get an idea of the consequences of this mad dash to demonise vaccine and the vaccine industry.
“It’s talking on both sides of your mouth,imo, to say,yes it’s a neurotoxin, it’s unsafe…but when put in a vaccine…WELL now, that’s another matter…it’s suddenly harmless.”
Christine you’re not getting me. I don’t think mercury is safe. Thats not the issue. I even feel its a good idea its not in vaccines anymore. But the point is – *does it cause autism*? All the science so far says ‘no’. As I tried to make clear in my example – the whole shebang is meaningless without _causation_ . Zoo’s don’t cause autism but me taking my daughter to one creates a link between Zoo’s and autism – *but not a causative one*. In the same way, there really seems to be a link between mercury and autism – *just not a causative one*.
My personal beef with Chelation is how its aggressively marketed to parents who’ll try anything to help their kids.
The simple facts are that Rashid Buttar has never submitted TD-DMPS for testing. Why? If he did and it passed then he’d reach millions more kids and become vastly rich to boot. The only thing I can think of is that he’s scared of failing.
Christine I’ll say the same to you as I say to everyone else who takes me to task re: my opinion on Chelation: its not my place to tell you what to try or not to try. If you feel comfortable doing it then go right ahead. However, I’ve grave doubts about the legitimacy of it and about the integrity of those who push it. Just as you are free to buy, I am free to give voice to my concerns.
I’ve never seen multiple TV commercials during prime time for chelation. I have never received a direct mail piece or seen a presentation advertised at the two different schools for autistic kids my son attends.
Dr Buttar is onto something. No other prescription gets the heavy metals out of the body faster. Lets demonize him for helping his son! Kev, you don’t think mercury is safe, but, as I see it, you go to great lengths to defend it. How do you defend a neurotoxin injected into a baby at 100X the governments own threshold? If you look at the chelation doctors they do not tie everything to thimerisol. but, refer to it as a major contributor. I do not believe these people are con artist doctors. I do have a new opinion of many pediatricians who will not look at both sides of the arguement. They believe whatever they are spoonfed by the AAP, CDC and IOM. I do not trust these groups. They have a track record of deception on this issue. Put this one in your pipe and smoke it “Parents cannot leagally get the make up of the ingrediants of what was injected into their children”! Big pharma, CDC, FDA, AAP and the IOM are silent. People should be rioting in the streets. Go ahead and defend it. I want to hear you justify it.
just to apologize/clarify…Some of the things in my last post, I wasn’t referencing anything you said, Kev, but rather from what was said by other posters. I should have been more clear.
I agree with you though. There is alot of money to be made off of frantic parents. That is one of the reasons we stopped chelating. I did want to continue chelating-we used DMSA coupled with a nice handful of vitamin/mineral supplements. We had pulled out quite a bit of toxins but had reached point where very little was being removed. I wanted to move forward with ALA, but the Dr. insisted that because toxins were still coming out, albeit in tiny amounts, w/in “reference range”…there was “no safe level of toxity” blah blah blah. When I pointed out that Ifelt it virtually impossible to remove every last bit of toxin from his body because they are continually present in the environment as well…He blew me off. When I inquired about alternative means of chelation I had researched that would be a bit more affordable for us…He again blew me off saying that DMSA was the ONLY way to chelate…that these other people were just in it to make money. Which made me laugh as he lives in a posh suburb of Kansas City, Missouri called Mission Hills, so he hardly treats people for free….Anyway,not that you really care…I’m just saying I’m well aware that there are those out to take people for a ride. I believe in chelation in SOME instances tho. But I will not resume chelation under the previous Dr’s care.
We can obviously go around and around about the causation issue. Going to a zoo a day before a diagnosis seems like a silly analogy to me as one has nothing to do with the other. Mercury is a neurotoxin, autism is a neurological disorder…I’m not saying it is the direct cause of autism,but there is more direct/logical connection between the two things than zoos/autism diagnosis. I realize you are just trying to make the analogy…I’m just saying conjoined with other possible factors,it seems perfectly legitimate that mercury/vaccines may be a piece of the puzzle in some instances.
One more thing…many people like to throw out that in regards to chelation, these things have not been “approved by the FDA”. Sorry to say, but the fact that something is approved by the FDA doesn’t automatically make me sleep any better at night. There’s been plenty of problems with FDA approved drugs as of late and alot backpeddling and C.Y.A as a result.
“Going to a zoo a day before a diagnosis seems like a silly analogy to me as one has nothing to do with the other.”
Thats kind of my point ;o)
I found your Chelation experiences fascinating – mainly as its not something we in the UK have first hand experience of. This guy just used DMSA eh?