What was a disagreement about the causes of autism is widening into a war. This isn’t a war between parents and scientists. Its a war between one set of parents and a group comprised of other parents, scientists and autistics themselves. Its a war between flexibility and acceptance on one side and a rigid determination to ‘cure’ on the other.
To cure what? Good question. Some believe that autism and its attendant comorbidities are interchangeable. That constipation and a different way of looking at things are the same thing. That dyspraxia and a lack of imaginative ability are the same thing. Others believe that the two things are quite separate. That the comorbidities that are attendant with autism in _some_ people cannot be used to define autism. That the condition of being autistic bequeaths gifts as well as troubles (and it does bequeath troubles, lets not pretend it doesn’t) and that keeping the troubles is a small price to pay for keeping the gifts.
There are lots of questions that arise from these ideas of course but lets further examine the stance of the opposition to these two camps. For those that see autism as a medical as well as developmental issue there seems to be a residual pool of dislike, verging into outright hatred for those that don’t. They think that their opposition are abandoning kids to their horrible autistic fate. For them there are no shades of grey – its either black or white. These people also seek to play down and even attempt to rewrite official diagnostic criteria to downplay the ‘higher’ end of the spectrum.
Mr Lietch (sic) thinks it is in the child’s best interest to do absolutely nothing to ameliorate this condition [the writers son] . And, he and his associates knock parents for trying to help our children
This condition. Autism, one assumes. The question to which I repeatedly put to John Best was what constituted autism? Best constantly (and still does) fails to appreciate the distinction:
…You claim head banging and feces smearing are not autism. Is this supposed to obscure the issue? These are not normal and are very much a part of autism….
Up until now all we have is debate – its a debate that takes no prisoners to be sure, but its a debate nonetheless. However, things invariably take a turn for the worse:
Your neurodiverse pals who sneeringly refer to people who try to help children as “curebies”
Sounds diabolical doesn’t it? Us sneeringly cruel ‘neurodiverse’ (sic) want to stop people helping children. Something of bizarre belief seeing as quite a lot of people who consider themselves aligned with the notion of respecting autism are parents themselves. But wait! We forget that…
Anyone who is not chelating to get rid of the mercury is guilty of child abuse. Every doctor who is not telling their patients to chelate is guilty of malpractice….. Any parent who listens to the doctors tell them that there is no known cause or cure for autism is too damn stupid to have kids.
Except of course the truth is somewhat different. The truth is (as I have repeatedly said) that respecting autism is not the same thing as respecting someone gastric issues. If your child smears faeces then find out why and intervene. If your child bangs their head on the wall, buy them a scrum cap, figure out why and intervene. If your child has gastric issues, find out what they are and intervene. *If your child is mercury poisoned then get a proper doctor to chelate them*. But don’t fool yourself that by removing someones need to bang their head against a wall you are removing their autism as you are not and cannot. that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. It does mean you need to have realistic expectations. It does mean you need to be prepared to look at your child at the beginning, during and end of the process of treatment you have for them and say ‘I would love you no matter what’. You need to understand that because someone can’t speak doesn’t mean they can’t hear and to hear who they are described as ‘rotting in an abyss’ or ‘worse than hell’ or ‘diseased’ is going to do that child no good at all.
Frequently those if us who believe in acceptance are told by those that don’t that we are ignoring childrens needs:
And, Kev, have you done research on the trailer-dwelling coo-coos you now are affiliated with? You keep harping on the symptom profile of autism. Look, mate, our kids ALL share the same physical symptoms. I had twin autistic boys over to my house this weekend. They are six. They’ve never been treated. They can’t talk, much less function, they require 24 hour care. They have all the same physical issues my son HAD, which have since resolved. In your coo-coo world these parents would do nothing. Shameful and idiotic.
I have to admit to not being too sure what ‘coo-coo’ means but I’m assuming its not good. As ever though, the point is missed – no-one, repeat *no-one* is saying parents shouldn’t intervene where kids can’t talk or can’t function and I challenge JB Handley (or anyone else) to find any statement where I have advocated that belief. Its increasingly hysterical fear-mongering because its rapidly dawning on these people that they are looking increasingly fundamentalist and fringe.
You might note I’ve quoted extensively from JB Handley and John Best Jr here. I do so because they are both strongly affiliated with Generation Rescue, the group that apparently gives parents the knowledge to make an informed choice. Yeah. Knowledge like:
There is no evidence to suggest that autism is genetic. No autism gene has ever been found and the search will be endless – how can you have a gene for a mythical condition? Autism is mercury poisoning
So, John Best Jr and JB Handley are all about promoting choice and informed decisions. So much so that they launch into full on attack mode and misrepresent people’s beliefs. Sometimes the attacks get very, very personal indeed:
Muslim terrorists who fly planes into tall buildings have a different set of beliefs than others. Your neurodiverse pals who sneeringly refer to people who try to help children as “curebies” and go to extreme measures in attempts to discredit those people are in the same class.
John Best associating the World Trade Center attack with my belief that acceptance and flexibility is best. I couldn’t quite believe he’d actually said that so I asked for clarification:
You spout your nonsense in much the same way that terrorists shout for Allah before they blow things up with bombs strapped to themselves. That agenda is more than a little bit wacky to most people who are thinking straight.
Yup, he meant it all right. Don’t forget, John Best Jr is a ‘Rescue Angel’ – one who is charged by Generation Rescue with informing parents about mercury and chelation. He is a spokesman for Generation Rescue.
The populace of Generation Rescue have a particular dislike of Kathleen Seidel. They see her as the ‘spokesperson’ of ‘the neurodiverse’ probably because of the domain. In a very disturbing attack, Best again mistakes autism with comorbidity, goes after Kathleen and at the same time confirms that for him, ‘better dead than autistic’ is certainly true:
..So they miss out on curing their children and the kids wind up spending their lives in institutions. In effect, they never enjoy one second of the lives they could have had if only the mercury had been removed from their brains. Ms Seidel might as well have put a bullet in those kids so they would not have suffered. Does that sound about right, Kevin?
One wonders – is ‘better dead than autistic’ a policy decision of Generation Rescue?
John Best, that (typical?) fine, upstanding member of Generation Rescue also has views on the failings of the diagnostic criteria for autism:
Your adult Asperger’s friends would have been called by a different name when I was young and nobody was aware of the effects of the mercury they’ve been shooting into us since the 1930’s. They would have been called nerds.
Nice.
Best is, of course, attempting to paint all within the ‘neurodiverse’ (sic) movement as AS. Of course, his theory founders on the fact that it is not. But still, I wonder – is insulting autistics another policy of Generation Rescue?
I don’t believe for a moment that everyone in the Biomed community thinks like Best, or Handley come to that, which makes it a pity that so very many in the Biomed community see that our thoughts as a threat to them – so much of a threat that even an appalling loss of life such as the World Trade Center attacks is not above being denigrated in an attempt to demonise people such as I.
I’ve said it before and I say it again now. The Biomed community needs to take a long hard look at itself and who its most vocal proponents are. Do you honestly believe that your cause is well served by referring to others as akin to bombers? Or child abusers? or nerds?
Is this something you really think will attract people to your way of thinking?
Is this a position from which you think is substantial enough to build from?
Are these words which you feel serve you well, personally?
Left Brain Right Brain 
_”My personal opinion (which admittedly means nothing)”_
Incorrect John Q. Everyones opinions matter and mean something. For the most part I can respect others beliefs in treating their kids how they want. Its when the debate gets dragged to the dogmatic level that JB and JBjr take it to that I get annoyed.
_”is that vaccines have contributed to the autism epidemic”_
The science supports no such epidemic. Rise in numbers? Yes. Rise in prevelance? No evidence of that. Lots of evidence against it.
This is great Kevin, you and all your wacked out weirdo’s can show off in public for us now. I must terrify you with all the trouble you went to to set up a fake conference just to milk my words out of context. Too bad you’re all too damn stupid to learn anything from them you bunch of child abusers.
Our cogent argument:
http://grcausecure.blogspot.com/2005/10/www.html
_”I must terrify you with all the trouble you went to to set up a fake conference just to milk my words out of context.”_
Words fail me. You honestly believe that _I_ set up the AWARES conference? Or that it was set up just to trap you?
Paranoia and ego John. You are one fucked up individual.
JB – thanks for refraining from insults in your latest post. I’ve already read your thoughts. JP sums up my thoughts on the subject.
And a cogent answer:
http://www.supportvaccination.org/2005/10/my-response-to-grlabelsblogspotcom.html
Just a quick note on comments: my spam filter mods comments automatically that have 5 or more links or if people post in rapid succcession or from open relays or anon proxies – I only know when I log into my admin area so if you make a comment and it seems to go nowhere rest assured its probably been modded in which case I’ll release it when I notice.
This goes for both sides.
Miranda Reitz said:
“I sure you hope you catch whoever is “after†your angels, JB. So we can see if it’s true. For now I’m with Kevin, I think you are totally inventing this to make yourself look like a victim.”
and
“I wonder if his parents and in-laws would like to read what he’s been writing here?”
And you think I’m inventing that NDs are contacting our Rescue Angels in their homes and offices?
Oh, and Miranda, definitely contact Sandy. She’d probably love to do a story on neurodiversity and she’ll probably toss the dozens of before/after videotapes she has of children recovered from chelation.
Here’s the ND playbook:
1. State that autism is just a kind of personality and should be accepted
2. Deny that an autism epidemic exists, and profess it’s due to better diagnosis
3. If there are medical tests that demonstrate these children are mercury poisoned, claim the tests are bogus
4. If there are chelating agents recovering kids, claim the agents don’t work and the kids would have gotten better anyway
5. Never, ever, ever discuss whether or not any tests have been done on your own kids
6. Attack any messengers if they contradict you
It’s a closed loop argument.
Kevin, I did agree to debate you, btw.
You say our side presents a closed loop argument, too?Please, some ND, prove me wrong. Show me the tests that show an autistic child who is not mercury poisoned.
In the meantime, here’s our argument in more detail
grcausecure.blogspot.com
It’s been real fun.
JB
Kevin Barry wrote to Kev,
Hi Kevin,
Have you read the following studies?
If mercury from shots prior to you daughter’s DPT shot engaged her immune system….
Burbacher, Charleston and Herbert are the most interesting.[snip]
Hi Mr. Barry, Have you read them?
The reason I ask is because you have a very interesting list of papers there. So I dip into them and start browsing over the Makani et al. 2002 Genes and Immunity paper when I thought I came across a typo. The legend for figure 7 clearly stated 5M thimerosal as being used in the assay. 5 MOLAR. No way, I thought, they must have dropped the nano, micro, or milli. So I thumb to Materials and Methods. Oh yes, it’s molar all right. Shock.
This is not the paper you want to use as a cornerstone in the mercury-autism theory. There is a reason why this was not in a top-tier journal. I mean seriously, doesn’t it bother anyone that the papers being cited as the primary foundation of the theory are in mediocre journals at best. Then there’s the congressional testimony that’s being passed around as evidence. I’m sure Ollie North is smiling someplace right now.
Oh, and I’d be careful about citing something that you haven’t read. Reading the title and maybe part of the abstract doesn’t cut it, not when the citation is being used to support such a contentious and potentially tremendous claim.
I’ll get back to you on the three you mentioned.
-shot over
_”Here’s the ND playbook:”_
Oh no, JB – what you discuss isn’t the ‘ND’ playbook.
_”1. State that autism is just a kind of personality and should be accepted”_
Provide a link where I’ve said that please.
_”2. Deny that an autism epidemic exists, and profess it’s due to better diagnosis”_
Backed up by peer reviewed science.
_”3. If there are medical tests that demonstrate these children are mercury poisoned, claim the tests are bogus”_
Claims made by mainstream medicine.
_”4. If there are chelating agents recovering kids, claim the agents don’t work and the kids would have gotten better anyway”_
Hm. Tricky. Chelation obviously chelates so it can’t be said to not work as such. Its more that as there’s no causative link between thiomersal and autism, I see chelation as useless and unecessary. Also, as you don’t use it in isolation how you kow its effective is beyond me. I’d also question what you mean by ‘better’.
_”5. Never, ever, ever discuss whether or not any tests have been done on your own kids”_
In my case correct. Once my child starts getting abuse then thats it for public discussion.
_”6. Attack any messengers if they contradict you”_
Or, disagree with you. Its not like I called anyone a child abuser or a terrorist now did I? No, only one side in this litle mess stoops that low.
I’m glad you’re happy to be debated. I’m sure lots of people will be happy to ask you things.
Kev said: _my spam filter mods comments automatically that have 5 or more links _
Oops… my bad. I’ll try to remember that.
JB Handley said: _Show me the tests that show an autistic child who is not mercury poisoned._
But it is already available in a paper that was in the “baffle with bovine excrement” list. Noted and commented on here:
http://photoninthedarkness.blogspot.com/2005/07/pefect-example-of-how-not-to-do-study.html
and continued here:
http://photoninthedarkness.blogspot.com/2005/07/perfect-example-of-how-not-to-do-study.html
oh… and this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15316135&query_hl=3
“is that vaccines have contributed to the autism epidemicâ€
Kev said…
“The science supports no such epidemic. Rise in numbers? Yes. Rise in prevelance? No evidence of that. Lots of evidence against it.”
Ok. This is where I strongly disagree with you. You seem to be saying that while the IDEA numbers are increasing there is really not an increase in autism and that there is lots of evidence against an increase.
I’ve seen lots of blogs on this topic and I’ve seen some arguments that I thought were strong. I’m certain you have seen this as well. If this logic is faulty I would really like someone to comment on it because it seems sort of obvious to me. I think we have 3 possible scenarios to look at:
1. The true rate of autism is increasing and there must be an environmental trigger for this sudden increase
2. The true rate of autism is the same as it has always been. The primary change is a widening of the diagnosis criteria which simultaneously resulted in an improved ability for doctors to diagnose the disorder.
3. The rate of autism is unchanged. The primary cause for the rise in autism numbers is a misdiagnosis that occured in the past. Children diagnosed today as autistic would have been diagnosed as mentally retarded or some other label in the past.
I’ll be up front and state that I believe the first scenario to be true. Here’s why. If you believe #2 you’re essentially saying that children diagnosed as autistic today would not have had any diagnosis in the past. As a father of an autistic son I just can’t possibly believe that my son would be considered normal 20 years ago. We would have pushed our doctor to help us with our son just like we intervened for him today. It’s very hard to not notice an autistic child. Surely you would agree with that statement Kevin. Even if they weren’t diagnosed as autistic, they would have had to receive some diagnosis and be separated from the normal children when it was time for school.
Option 3 seems like a better argument to me than #2 and it should be relatively simple for someone to prove. Lets assume mental retardation is the diagnosis that would have been given to autistic children in the past (prior to the widening of the criteria). If that’s true, then the total number of mentally retarded + autistic children should be the same (adjusted for population growth) over the past several decades. We would see a shift over time with mental retardation decreasing and autism increasing but the total number should be the same in the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, 2000’s. I haven’t looked at the data but I’ve seen this question posed to staunch disbelievers in an autism epidemic and I haven’t seen anyone produce data to back up this argument. I may be mistaken, but I believe someone like Autism Diva would have provided this proof if the data backed it up.
If you accept that the rate of autism started rising in the late 80’s and early 90’s, vaccines do start to look very suspicious because of the timing.
Mr. Wickiser:
I wanted to respond to your post regarding Mr. Best, a person I have never met. He is neither an officer of Generation Rescue nor is he a spokesperson. He is what is known as a Rescue Angel. What this means is that he has volunteered to have his name displayed on our website for the world to see, so that local parents who read our website and want more information may talk to him. Mr. Best has given his time, and asked nothing in return, to help other parents. For this, we are deeply grateful to him.
If Mr. Best is anything like me, which I imagine he is, then autism has thrown him a major and unexpected curveball. I think the same is true for anyone on this blog, irrespective of what side of this debate they are on. To add further insult to injury, I would guess that Mr. Best, like myself, feels that some inept self-dealing bureaucrats put their needs in front of his child’s, causing his child meaningful harm. If you think I dislike the position of the NDs, which I hotly do, you should see me when we start talking about the CDC, FDA, IOM, and Dr. Offit. So, I can relate to the rage I know that he feels.
As I have watched my son lose the symptoms which caused him to be diagnosed autistic, I have thanked God and everyone else in the universe for his improvements. At the same time, I have felt rage and extreme concern for the tens of thousands of children not being treated. That initial rage was the spark that allowed my wife and I to create Generation Rescue. At the time of GR’s creation, I had no idea that the ND crowd even existed. In fact, the first time I head about it (when Ms. Seidel circulated a petition against Professor Haley), I thought it was a joke. I never conceived that parents would be pushing acceptance of their child’s condition, rather than trying to fix or improve it. I can say with certainty that my son a year ago was headed towards institutionalization as an adult (if we weren’t around to see after him), and I was, and am, unwilling to accept that. If I view the lot of you as caught up in a misguided coping strategy, which I do, you can at least see why I find that distasteful.
In the ensuing time, I have had the privelege to meet many of the amazing doctors treating our children, as well as hundreds of parents with recovered children who all have the same story: when the mercury came out, their child returned to them. So, I believe deeply in what we are doing and why.
My disagreement with this crowd, who I otherwise would have avoided, turned to intense dislike due to four things:
– Mr. Leitch sent me an email on my private email account, I responded, and he put my comments on his blog without asking me.
– Ms. Seidel stated that I was a vaccine litigant, which is untrue.
– Ms. Clark stated that I am doing this for some business reason or money interest, which is untrue.
– Certain NDs, one of whom has a blog, hassled our Rescue Angels in their home and office, including sending a letter directly to an employer.
So, you guys really pissed me off. And, not being someone to miss a fight, I have jumped in and wrestled with you, on your turf, and hung around despite many personal and disparaging attacks (which I am not above myself). I notice that few of you ever post on EOH, perhaps because that turf is not so friendly. I’ve also noticed that few of you post in your own name (I applaud those who do, like Mr. Leicht and Ms. Seidel).
Mr. Best is also like me in that he does not back down from a fight. He speaks provocatively, abusively, hyperbolically, and, at times, absurdly. He is enraged by what you guys stand for, I would guess. And, through your position, he sees a bunch of children who may never be treated for what he firmly believes ails them. It probably drives him nuts. And, since the immaturity is by no means exclusive to our side, there’s plenty of opportunities for escalation.
I have not reviewed every post written by Mr. Best. That is neither my right nor responsibility. I have reviewed the ones summarized in this blog. Through Mr. Leitch’s previous Q&A, I have already shared my position on some specific points. I believe every ND loves their autistic child deeply, as I know I do and I’m sure Mr. Best does. Mr. Best has chosen to be challenging and provocative, at times he has crossed the lines of good taste and sensitivity, something I, and many of you (as this blog memorializes!!) have also done. The one thing I have learned about these 2 sides is that we really push each other’s buttons. It’s easy enough to understand: we can’t both be right, and we are all dealing with an extraordinary challenge. Within the next 10 years, one side is going to have to face a really harsh reality that they could have done more or less, as the case may be, for their child.
So, my position on Mr. Best is that he’s a keeper, and we wish he would find a better way to express his feelings at times. Some of his comments have been de-contextualized, some were purposefully inflammatory and don’t reflect how he feels, and some would be btter left unsaid. To his credit, Mr. Best offered to withdraw his name as a Rescue Angel for being part of this hubaloo. His request was rejected. There are parents to help (who frequent other blogs, that is) and we need him.
Mr. Wickiser, if you’d really thought it through, you wouldn’t raise too big a stink about Mr. Best with me. Heck, he’s a quote machine for you guys! Can him, and all you have is me. And, after reading about Kevin’s daughter and her vaccine reaction, I just can’t summon up any more venom, I’m too hopeful the Kevin of 1 year ago will return. You think the democrats are happy Harriet Meirs withdrew her nomination? They’re devastated – it was so fun to watch. I haven’t a clue what you think Congressman Burton would care about Mr. Best, his comments, or Generation Rescue, but by all means go for it. A word from the wise – buy an ad, you’re then guranteed they’ll run it.
Regards,
JB Handley
John Q – I will respond to your honest and friendly debate but first I have to correct JB again.
JB, thanks for the first post from you thats not either openly abusive or deliberately misrepresentative. However:
_” – Mr. Leitch sent me an email on my private email account, I responded, and he put my comments on his blog without asking me. – “_
Is not quite the whole story. The mail I sent you informed you of the fact that I’d posted it on here. You responded with your usual sulkiness which quickly turned into smooth PR once you realised you were being ‘made public’.
_”So, you guys really pissed me off. And, not being someone to miss a fight, I have jumped in and wrestled with you, on your turf, and hung around despite many personal and disparaging attacks (which I am not above myself).”_
The first I knew of you was your claim that all autism was/is mercury poisoning. That disparagment of my daughter enraged me. Your contined wilful denial of factual data that contradicts you is further fuel to that fire. Other than that and your continued push on chelation I don’t care what you do.
_”I notice that few of you ever post on EOH, perhaps because that turf is not so friendly. I’ve also noticed that few of you post in your own name (I applaud those who do, like Mr. Leicht and Ms. Seidel).”_
I used to post on EoH but really – whats the point? I got a lot of email when I did, some pretty nasty, some supportive of my position and at least 3 GR Rescue Angels who wanted to debate me via email which we still do now. You might be surprised to know that 2 of them feel disenfranchised by an organisation that has John Best as a spokesman and further surprised that they feel totally unable to approach you about it. One actually apologised to me only yesterday which was very good of them considering it was nothing to do with them. As a business man I’m surprised you aren’t more careful about your brand and who promotes it.
All in all though JB I enjoyed your last post and saw much that even you and I could find as common ground. Sadly the rhetoric you endorse continues to make that very difficult.
“Truly, if you’ve got that much rage over people who simply disagree with you, heaven help the poor person who cuts you off in traffic.”
I have to agree with this. I find the amount of verbal violence from some of the Mercury Parents to be extremely disturbing, and it’s part of why, once I did a bit of research into the area, I decided it was in my best interests to avoid them as much as possible.
This is the “face” of the autism-is-mercury-poisoning crowd, and it’s an ugly one. I wonder why they’re happy to be represented as frighteningly angry people who would sooner smack your face off as say hello to you.
bonni: “I wonder why they’re happy to be represented as frighteningly angry people who would sooner smack your face off as say hello to you.”
I wish I knew. I can only imagine it’s down to something that comes from the seriously fucked-up way they deal with cognitive dissonance. Rather than accept evidence contrary to a current belief, they’ll react against it and anything/one that/who provides support for that opposite view.
Resistance to learning, and failure to accommodate opposing information appropriately into their schemata.
All I know is that I’d hate to be like that.
John Q Public wrote:
“you’re essentially saying that children diagnosed as autistic today would not have had any diagnosis in the past… Even if they weren’t diagnosed as autistic, they would have had to receive some diagnosis and be separated from the normal children when it was time for school.”
What happened, John Q, was that many parents refused to allow their child to be “separated from the normal children.” I was fortunate to have parents like that when I started school 35 years ago. They moved me from one school to another, trying to find a more tolerant environment, and made sure that any diagnostic opinions stayed unofficial. My mother even destroyed my primary school records, when she got a chance, so as to protect me from discrimination by making sure that no one would ever see any comments about autistic behavior. I am certainly not the only autistic adult who grew up under such circumstances.
It’s long past time to put an end to those prejudices.
You make some interesting points John Q, and I’m sure that other people will answer them better than I would.
Even if they weren’t diagnosed as autistic, they would have had to receive some diagnosis and be separated from the normal children when it was time for school.
Yep; to take the example of someone I know, he has a rag-bag of diagnoses, but probably is autistic. The question is ‘where’ he would be ‘counted’.
If that’s true, then the total number of mentally retarded + autistic children should be the same (adjusted for population growth) over the past several decades.
There are other factors as well; for example more premature babies are surviving, and there is a greater risk of these children having learning disabilities.
To put the cat among the pigeons; what was introduced in the 1980s, and continues to be used increasingly, with an upward trend? IVF and assisted conception.
Bonnie –
You make some interesting comments about your experiences at school. I can somewhat relate. My son is doing very well (thanks to biomed treatment – ie. diet and supplements). He is in a typical preschool. I have not mentioned anything to his teachers about his SID, etc. From all accounts he is fitting in very well. He is, however, a bit “quirky” and has difficulties in social engagements with other children. He could possibly be an example of a child who years ago would not have had any official “diagnosis” but was considered a bit odd or brainy or whatever…
However, I am fully and painfully aware that this is not the case with many families. I took my son to a school specializing in children with an ASD diagnosis and there is NO WAY that most of these children could have been shuffled along as a bit quirky. Come on, the fact that many of these children are non-verbal would be a huge red flag for me and I would hope for the teachers in the past. Would you agree?
-Sue
“Here’s why. If you believe #2 you’re essentially saying that children diagnosed as autistic today would not have had any diagnosis in the past. As a father of an autistic son I just can’t possibly believe that my son would be considered normal 20 years ago.”
Incorrect.
You see, if you believe #2 (that is, expansion of the diagnostic criteria is the primary cause of the increase in observed numbers) – you are saying that SOME, not all, but SOME children diagnosed as autistic today would not have been diagnosed that way 20 years ago.
Your child probably would have gotten a diagnosis, based on what you’re saying.
But I would not – I’m part of the “1 in 166” and the like, but I didn’t get my diagnosis until after I was finished High School – and that only because my sister was “obvious” and as my mother learned about autism, she went “hey, a lot of this fits my son”.
And really, the true answer is a mix of #2 and #3, if you ask me.
A lot of people are getting autism diagnoses in ADDITION to other diagnoses – where ten or twenty years ago, it would have been just that other diagnosis.
And a lot more people are getting diagnoses who never would have before, and then you also have to remember that ALL the “scare” numbers being thrown around include Asperger’s – and some of them are being compared to numbers that DON’T.
Sue M. wrote:
“the fact that many of these children are non-verbal would be a huge red flag for me and I would hope for the teachers in the past.”
Keep in mind that we’re talking about a completely different social environment. Daycare and preschool were not at all common until the 1980s, when women started working outside the home in much larger numbers. Although kindergarten existed, it wasn’t mandatory. Most autistic children would not have started school until age 6. If they were non-verbal at age 3 or 4, many parents would have thought of them as late talkers and would not have been worried about it, especially if they had autistic relatives who also learned to talk at a later age.
Also, there was no benefit to be gained from a diagnosis in those days. Until recently, schools didn’t provide speech therapy or other services. The prevailing attitude was “there are institutions for children like that.” Parents would not have thought of a speech delay in terms of red flags, seeking help, etc., because there wasn’t any to be had.
Here’s a link to an academic paper that is being presented at a conference this weekend:
http://www.case.edu/affil/sce/Texts_2005/Autism%20and%20Representation%20Nadesan.htm
The author describes autism as a social construct that arose in the context of the modern world’s anxieties about environmental contamination and cultural and technological change.
Bonnie –
I agree with you to a certain extent. My son, as an example, would not have had any diagnosis years ago.
That’s why you need to look at the more severely affected children. What about the number of school age kids (we’ll use age 5 or 6) who still are non-verbal (or minimal speech), or who aren’t potty trained, etc. Hasn’t that number increased? I contend that it has dramatically increased. Apparently, you don’t agree?
-Sue
Bonnie Ventura said “Also, there was no benefit to be gained from a diagnosis in those days. Until recently, schools didn’t provide speech therapy or other services. The prevailing attitude was “there are institutions for children like that.†Parents would not have thought of a speech delay in terms of red flags, seeking help, etc., because there wasn’t any to be had.”
I had my first child in the 1980’s… (take note that was a time when MORE women were going to work, there were daycares, but the work-place versions were not quite in place that do exist now for the women who worked where I did and now have younger children”.
My oldest son does have a very severe speech disability. He was lucky in that our family doctor DID refer us without delay to early intervention when he was just over two years old. But I encountered countless “helpful” souls who told me to “wait and see”, or gave me a story that their 2nd cousin thrice removed great-uncle’s grandson by marriage did not talk until they were 3, or 4 or 5… and were okay now. Press them for details and you got _nothing_!.
It did not help that one “helpful” friend gave me a newspaper clipping from some editorial writer who teaches economics at Stanford who claimed that “Late-Talking” children were budding geniuses and did not really need early intervention. (The fool even wrote a book to that effect later, which on the listserv I was on for speech disabilities is credited for many parents WAITING too long before getting their kids help).
So I know from my experience, and many of the experiences of those whose children attended my son’s special ed. preschool and those on the listserv that it was very UNcommon for non-talking kids to get help until they reached kindergarten. More than once I observed a sibling of my younger children’s playmates (including a classmate of my regular ed. preschool daughter) who had significant speech/language delays. I mentioned it to the parents as nicely as I could, only to get the response “Oh, our doctor believes he will catch up). Both kids eventually got into speech therapy starting in kindergarten (one of them with the same school therapist my son saw, the mom would avert her eyes to me when she passed me in the hall).
One school based therapist I talked two (one of about half a dozen my son saw during his ten years of speech therapy, school and private) told me that too often they would see kids come to school starting kindergarten who had absolutely no speech or other severe language problems. These were kids who should have been seen earlier. (This is a regular ed. school with THE deaf/hard of hearing program plus a program for speech disabled kids, about 15% of special ed. in the school —- One year they had a transfer of a pair of kindergarten twins from another school across town. The twins were registered as regular ed. students, but the school realized that both were profoundly deaf!! The parents apparently had no clue, except noting that they did not talk. sigh).
In 1994 there was a change in the diagnostic manual for autism… and then it seemed that more parents were taking notice that kids who did not talk needed help. About a year latere I started to go online to my first disabilities forums on Compuserve. That is when I learned that there were many ways that parents were discouraged from getting early intervention with their kids. In the ten years I’ve seen a huge change in acknowleging every small tiny nuance of child development.
Kevin Barry : 1 day, 3 hours ago
Hi Kevin,
Have you read the following studies?
I have. Everyone of them, the full papers, many times. More importantly I understand what I am reading. Do you KB? Some of the citations you’ve listed are excellent, some mediocre, and some just plain bad science. I’ll let you decide which are which. It would take way too much space and time to address each but I can tell you that even the ones about mercury don’t make a case for autism as mercury poisoning. So rather than post a list of research, anyone can do that, why don’t you tell us the message you see hidden in those citations? Or just pick one, any one, and tell us why you think it is relevant to your argument.
Anyone can play….round and round and round they go……
Clown Prince
clown prince – I cracked the code
Ashwood P, et al 2003. Intestinal Lymphocyte Populations in Children with Regressive Autism: Evidence for extensive Mucosal Immunopathology. Journal of Clinical Immunology, 23(6):504-517
Ashwood P, et al 2004. Spontaneous Mucosal Lymphocyte Cytokine Profiles in Children with Autism and Gastrointestinal Symptoms: Mucosal Immune Activation and Reduced Counter Regulatory Interleukin-10. Journal of Clinical Immunology, 24(6):664-673
Baskin DS, et al 2003. Thimerosal induces DNA breaks, caspase-3 activation, membrane damage, and cell death in cultured human neurons and fibroblasts. Tox. Sci., 74(2):361-8
Burbacher, T, et al 2005. Comparison of blood and brain mercury levels in infant monkeys exposed to methylmercury or vaccines containing thimerosal. Environmental Health Perspect., 113(8):1015-1021
Charleston J, et al 1996. Changes in the number of astrocytes and microglia in the thalamus of the monkey Macaca fascicularis following long-term subclinical methylmercury exposure. Neurotoxicology, 17(10:127-138
Kev – what’s up with lessthanUgreaterthan?
Comment preview has the underline but don’t see it on the board. ho hum. g’nite
Sue M. wrote:
“What about the number of school age kids (we’ll use age 5 or 6) who still are non-verbal (or minimal speech), or who aren’t potty trained, etc. Hasn’t that number increased? I contend that it has dramatically increased.”
Sue, do you have any links to websites with comparative statistics on the numbers of non-verbal children age 5 or 6 in the schools in, say, 1970 and 2000? (Many schools did not track, or report data on, children with speech disabilities until the 1980s.)
HN wrote:
“there were many ways that parents were discouraged from getting early intervention with their kids. In the ten years I’ve seen a huge change in acknowleging every small tiny nuance of child development.”
I agree. It wasn’t just parents who had the attitude that late-talking kids would catch up eventually; many doctors felt the same way.
I really hope you are able to take legal action against the mouth that roared on the AWARES.org conference board.
He was truly amazing. He must have made the merury moms and dads and David Kirby who posted their thougths on that site, very proud.
My favorite statement from JBjr is that you have written a book and are trying to promote it, much like Kirby … duh… like how hard is that to check? No book by BJ.
Also, he asked on the aut advo group, “who played the part of J Ken Wickiser?” uh. J Ken Wickiser played himself, the published scientist is not hard to identify.
http://www.ic3.gov/
A place to turn in complaints about hacking and death threats, etc. I didn’t know where it was… now I do.
🙂
Right now, I’m just guessing, but I think that maybe Ashleigh Anderson is connected to Hell Keeper, the both *seemed* to be actively cyber stalking. The guy named “dirt”… John McCarthy is a hacker. He either, did or pretended to unmask, “dangermama” with his cyber sleuthing.
I hope the FBI untangles this out in the open.
We all should know who has sent the death threats to people opposing the Mercury parents.
JB, any clues? Well, you could tell them to the authorities, that’s better than telling us here. That would be good of you, that is, IF you knew who was doing it.
We all should know who has sent the death threats to people opposing the Mercury parents.
This kind of intimidation attempt just goes to further the view that the Mercury Parents are hostile, violent, and willing to break the law to silence (or try to silence) people who disagree or oppose them.
They must be so proud of themselves.
JB – you post more often here than in your own blog. Still no answers to the questions clone3g and I posed about low-brow papers. But it’s nice to see that you’ve reigned in Best – it’s for the best, really. Besides, it would have been forever and a day before he’d get to chill with Clarence Oddbody. Can you hear that? That’s the sound of no bells ringing.
Ms Clark –
Regarding someone playing my part: I’m thinking Brad Pitt, but taller. Maybe Ben Affleck without the JLo baggage and low IQ. Lee Adama but taller and no daddy’s boy thing. Or Capt. Malcom Reynolds – yeah that’s it. Call me Mal.
I’ve been doing some checking and CDC is the Curious and DIdactic Caterpillars, a subvertive group bent on transforming themselves into something beautiful and teaching others how to do so as well. I think that Mr Hell ought to be told that some custodian or an administrative assistant who works for the CDC will present with a Caterpillar IP addy. They’ll likely have a CDC email as well.
Hell and the literature listers need to remember that the scientific process is adhered to for a reason. The inductive leap is a great way to get shin splints or stub your toe.
These nastygrams make the “care package” I received from Tim Ziegeweid (EOH stalker-wannabe) look like a love note.
Lisa, just read up on your ordeal. Wow. It’s weird, I was right near the old Schmidt brewery visiting relatives while this was going on. My wife and I were remarking about how midwesterners are so much more polite and genuine than the east coasters (no flames – I live in NYC and grew up in the twin cities). I’m shocked and my geographic-behavior theory is now destroyed. I say you’ve earned a right shoulder patch for that.
bonni: “This kind of intimidation attempt just goes to further the view that the Mercury Parents are hostile, violent, and willing to break the law to silence (or try to silence) people who disagree or oppose them.”
Exactly. And then they that *I* make JBJr look civil, without having any ground to say so. This is called projection, where the undesirable trait in person A’s character is claimed in person B’s character by person A, in the absence of indications for making such a claim. It’s a psychological defence mechanism which can be – and in this case probably is being – used to deflect criticism of a person’s behaviour.
Maybe reports should go to the authorities on these people and their behaviour. Certainly, their kids may well be in danger, if that one kid’s case is likely to happen again.
I don’t remember a case of Vygotsky-based child-rearing ever killing a kid. Clear from all this interaction is that a great many of the mercury parents are psychological messes, probably messing up their kids’ biologies. Something I refuse to do to my child’s biology. Only an idiot would use something that had not been properly tested for a particular purpose (“treating autism”) for that particular purpose (“treating autism”).
I pity their kids.
Kevin:
I have really enjoyed posting here and I’m sorry to say this will be my last post. As Dick Nixon once said…never mind.
Yes, I’ve been blogging quite a bit with you guys these last 48 hours. I really wanted to see who the people were that were hassling our Rescue Angels in their homes and offices and posting misstatements about my motivations for being involved with GR.
Now I know: you are all parents, just like me, trying to make sense of life after autism. For that reason, I’ve decided to improve my tone. As I’ve stated many times, I know that you all love your kids just as much as I love my son. Where I disagree with you profoundly, and I mean profoundly (to the point of getting red in the face and pounding the walls), is on the topic of what autism actually is. I do not actually believe autism exists, I think it is a misdiganosis. Now, don’t try and say some stupid shit about how I don’t acknowledge the existence of autistic people or some other such PC bullshit, because that is not remotely what I mean. I believe autism was a label, invented by a psychologist in the 40s, for something he had never seen before.
I wont take you through all the details of what else I believe because it’s all there for you in b&w on our website and you already know what it says, but basically I beleieve that our kids with an AS label are very, very sick and when they are treated, properly, for what actually ails them, they recover. For my son, and all these other poor kids, I hope for recovery. If you don’t, because you believe recovery is unrealistic or the wrong way to look at it, I absolutely, positively could not disagree with you more. To you I ask ask a simple question: do you wake up hoping your AS child is “better” than they were the day before?
Answer it honestly, and quickly. I don’t wish this for my NT son, he’s already great! But for Jamison, absolutely I do. Every day. And, on many days, he delivers. And, I know that sick children treated properly get way, way better.
The topic of mercury shouldn’t be so hard: either your child is mercury poisoned or they are not. If you have chosen not to face this issue with any of the following excuses, allow me to challenge you:
Excuse #1: You can’t test for mercury poisoning.
Me: This is absurd, yes you most certainly can. And, even if the test were difficult, wouldn’t you try? If you watched your child chew open an Hg thermomemter and drink the Hg, what would you do? Not test? Please, if you have not tested, please (and I literally am begging you), please do. At the very least, prove me wrong and tell the world!! You can go on Dateline, say JB Handley told me to test my AS child for mercury poisoning, my child is not mercury poisoned, and JB is dead wrong. What fun!!
Excuse #2: Chelators don’t work.
Me: This, too, is absurd. Many here seem obssessed with saying: transdermal DMPS does not work!! Well, I have some news for you:
– It works, just try it on yourself sometime, as I have
– Our kids are recovering with many, many different chelators, including many oral chelators (pill) which we enthusiastically endorse!! Picking on one form of chelation tends to show a lack of understanding of the options and methodology of chelation.
Excuse #3: Since there’s absolutely no correlation between Thimerosal and autism, why in the freak would I test my child for mercury poisoning??
Me:
– Well, first off, our own CDC has never demonstrated that there is no correlation between mercury and autism using US epidemiological numbers.
– And, more importantly, we are at the very least making a case that it is possible a correlation exists, no? Can’t you at least give us that? Mercury is a neurotoxin that affects the central nervous system and this is a central nervous system disorder, no? (I obviously think we are making a complete and self-evident case, but I welcome even moderate acknowledgement.)
– And, more than 10,000 of us are chelating. Do you really think every single one of us is just fuck-off crazy? Yes? Well then prove us wrong and do the dang tests!!
Enough on that, then. A little more clean-up before I go. Camille, I am sorry i dropped the F-bomb on you and offended you so deeply. In my world, it’s like saying “hello.” I retract the f-bomb. I’m still mad at you, because you persist in what I believe is rumor-mongering by insinuating I have a business motivation to autism, GR, Buttar, DMPS, or something. I ask you to stop spreading falsehoods where I know you have zero proof. So, here it is, clear and unequivocal: I do not have any business interest or ability to profit in any way whatsoever with anything to do with autism, GR, dmps, buttar, testing, or anything else you could possibly name. How’s that? Also, I did not intend in anyway to make fun of your child. I was trying to make the point that my role models are people with recovered children. I, too, am the parent of a special needs child, and I take back what I said and offer you an apology.
And, Kevin, I save the last for you. I have grown to respect you. You did not wilt under my offense (likening it to a dead lamb or something – I’m going to use that, very witty). I respect that you won’t talk about your daughter, but damn I’d like to understand why things changed for you. I know so many parents who stopped too early and, well, their kids are still messed up. Conversely, I know so many who stuck with it, and they have NT kids to show for it. I aspire for Jamie to be NT. (Before you jump on that, remeber that I believe Jamie is SICK, and I have the clear and unequivocal tests to support my position!! If he is healthy, he will be NT, because the are inextricably linked.)
Kevin, I hope you will reconsider. And, I hope you will come to America and meet with one of our great doctors here. If I offend anyone by saying that, maybe the trailer-dwellers can move in together, sell off a trailer, and get Kev a ticket. (That’s humor, by the way, humor)
Kev, you’ve called out my manhood several times – tail between the legs? – you wanted a debate. I’m ready for ya. Comment #3 on the blog below, I welcome your thoughtful, and ever so polite British, response:
http://grcausecure.blogspot.com/
JB Handley
(yes, it’s me, not an impostor)
“You see, if you believe #2 (that is, expansion of the diagnostic criteria is the primary cause of the increase in observed numbers) – you are saying that SOME, not all, but SOME children diagnosed as autistic today would not have been diagnosed that way 20 years ago.”
I’ll buy this argument but we’re talking about such a huge increase in the numbers. “SOME” could still represent a tremendous number. I admittedly don’t know what it is but most of the autistic children that I come in contact with at my sons school would have received a diagnosis, in my opinion.
Lots of people have commented about the speech delay and doctors saying “just wait and they’ll catch up” and I totally believe that. But for my son it wasn’t just about the speech delay. In fact, that wasn’t even my biggest concern. What made my son different was his lack of desire to play with other kids and just to socialize in general. I can remember my wife’s description after she came home from a “Mommy & Me” class. Our son ACTED differently than every other kid. Sitting by himself and spinning wheels on a car. Maybe this type of behavior is not typical for autistic children but that’s not the impression that I have. My son was diagnosed as moderately autistic at 18 months. Today, about 2 years later his therapists tell me he would be diagnosed PDD so apparently his condition is milder than some but of course more severe than some others.
Bonnie, I appreciate your honest feedback. But my guess is that most parents would not have resorted to destroying school records to protect their children (although I personally think your parents are awesome).
HN mentioned that many autistic children today receive multiple diagnoses. This may be true but it’s news to me. I can see a diagnosis of speech delay to be followed by autistic but I haven’t come across any children diagnosed as both autistic and mentally retarded.
I personally follow the DAN protocol for my son and my wife and I and his therapists do believe it is helping him. JB is a big boy and he doesn’t need me to defend him but as I see my son make improvements that are obviously (to me at least) related to his treatments I also develop an urge to tell other parents about it. This is all JB is doing but of course on a larger level. And it’s also no different than what Kevin is doing.
I’ve seen blogs, Yahoo groups, and various Internet groups on both sides. And the sad truth is that both sides are mean and firmly entrenced into a position.
I’ve noticed that a lot of the ND/people disagreeing with JB on this blog seem to have scientific and/or strong analytical backgrounds. Someone posted a link to a review of a hair study conducted by Mark Blaxill and others. I have no problem with reviews like that but I really wish you would spend some time analyzing the studies from places like the CDC & Denmark with the same critical eye.
“I admittedly don’t know what it is but most of the autistic children that I come in contact with at my sons school would have received a diagnosis, in my opinion.”
Yup. So? Any idea what percentage of the school-age population in the area they are? And is it a private school, perhaps for children with autism who aren’t able to function well in regular schools? ’cause, you know, no matter how bad you claim the “epidemic” is, a normal school’s not going to have very many autistic children.
People like me, who are generally able to function in society, don’t usually tell people they’re autistic. But in a survey, or if it matters? Yes – we will, of course we will.
If you asked my college about the percentage of graduate students with autism… it’d be remarkably high.
Why? Well, because I would count – and there’s not many grad students. Nonrepresentative sample
And if you went to the school my sister was last in? Yeah, most of the kids there would have gotten a diagnosis prior to the widening of criteria – otherwise they’d’ve been in a NORMAL school, with the neurotypicals.
So … how many autistic children are at your son’s school?
“If that’s true, then the total number of mentally retarded + autistic children should be the same (adjusted for population growth) over the past several decades.”
Take the US Department of Education or California DDS data, add the number of autistic children to the number of mentally retarded children in each year, divide by the total number of disabled children (to correct for population) -the number is remarkably constant. Its an exercise I have done, I orginally saw posted by Jim Laidler in another blog.
Table that goes from 1976-77 through to 2003 for a starter:
Children 3 to 21 years old served in federally supported programs for the disabled, by type of disability: Selected years, 1976-77 to 2003-04
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_052.asp
I believe autism was a label, invented by a psychologist in the 40s, for something he had never seen before.
Pretty much EVERYTHING is a label, invented by some psychologist or doctor, to describe something they haven’t seen before or were documenting.
Someone to whom bonni replied above: “I believe autism was a label, invented by a psychologist in the 40s, for something he had never seen before.”
Wrong, actually.
The term autism comes from the work of Bleuler, who was attempting to describe the tendency of some people (then being diagnosed as schizophrenic) to retreat/withdraw into a world of their own. Bleuler was a psychiatrist.
Leo Kanner used it to describe the syndrome which bears his name (at least in ICD 10), when he was investigating what he called “autistic disturbances in affective contact”. At about the same time, Hans Asperger was using the term to describe a bunch of boys he was working with in his Habilitation degree. Kanner was a psychiatrist who understood psychoanalysis. Asperger was a paediatrician who understood children.
And, as a postscript to bonni’s response, I’ll just add that ANY noun that can be applied to any object is a label. And – if one hasn’t see an object before – one ends up having to invent a label for it. This is a general activity, regardless of whether one is a doctor or a psychologist or whatever.
“I believe autism was a label, invented by a psychologist in the 40s, for something he had never seen before.” JBH
Actually, the label was already in existence, and was being used to describe one of the features of schizophrenia. Both Kanner and Asperger, in one of those curious serendipitous moments, and in the same year – 1943 – selected that particular word to use for a condition in its own right, rather than as a part of the entire schizophrenia package. It means self-isolating behaviour.
Prior to this, ‘autism’ was only thought of as a psychotic behavioural symptom.
It may interest you to know that autism didn’t suddenly arrive with the advent of vaccines – it was there all along, bundled up with schizophrenia.
In fact, well into the 1950s and 1960s, children with autism were still being diagnosed as schizophrenic, and treated for that condition. Both Wendy Lawson and Temple Grandin received such an initial diagnosis, and Wendy was treated for it for many years.
Those of us who believe that diagnostic criteria seeping into mainstream medicine, and being refined and further refined so that children can be identified and helped, is responsible for the autism ‘epidemic’ do so with the full backing of historical evidence.
Snap, David!!
Say, BJ…. you know what they say about great minds?
Great minds…….
… could often use a beer or three 😉
Lunch time here in sunny (not) Finland.
God I wish I lived in a similar timezone to you lot. I get up to a _huge_ amount of comments ;o)
_”Kev – what’s up with lessthanUgreaterthan?”_
Most markup is disabled by default – ‘italic’ is presentational markup hence I banned it :o) if you want an italic style effect then you can check out the ‘textile available’ link on the comment form for lots of markup options.
JB – your last comment contained a whole discussion in itself. I’m probably going to take a whole new post to answer it.
Has everyone else noticed how the tone of this thread has improved since the absence of a certain someone?
One thing everyone should be able to agree on regarding autism is that it is something abnormal. If it was not abnormal, there would not be a reason to diagnose anyone as autistic. What it comes down to is that the brains just don’t work right. When my normal kids ask what’s wrong with their autistic brother, I tell them his brain doesn’t work right. I tell them the reason for this is because doctors put poison in his brain. People who dislike my opinions may call this a knock on my own child. I call it truth. I recognize that truth and do what I can to help my son so his brain will work right.
Some adult autistics (whose brains don’t work right) like to play childish games of entrapment to take quotes out of context from someone whose brain does work right. These same childish adults refuse to allow their real names to be seen in public. That’s OK, I won’t divulge their anonymity. They have enough problems because they are autistic (their brains don’t work right). These people (whose brains don’t work right) think taking things out of context to place in a public forum is an intelligent thing to do. They are not showing anyone the truth because they do not display their remarks to which the quoted person responded. Intelligent people (whose brains do work right) can see through this childish nonsense without much trouble.
Some autistic people (whose brains don’t work right) and others think it is a good idea to try to prevent parents (whose brains do work right) from helping their children whose brains don’t work right. These same adults did not have a cure available to them as children and now are allowed to make their own decisions as adults. I don’t think anyone is trying to force any of them to accept a cure for themselves. However, these adults fail to see the fallacy of advising parents not to cure their children. Parents would be remiss in their responsibilities to their children if they allowed them to become adults whose brains don’t work right rather than trying to help them become adults whose brains do work right. That’s why I go to the bother of stating my opinion whenever I see nonsense that was written by people whose brains don’t work right.
I do not work for Generation Rescue. I am not a spokesman for Generation Rescue. My only association with GR is that my name is available for parents to consult if they would like to hear my experience with chelation. I spoke publicly about chelation before GR was formed. I have published on the subject before GR was formed. I speak for myself and my autistic child. I also speak against those (whose brains don’t work right) who advise people against considering chelation.
John Best: “I don’t think anyone is trying to force any of them to accept a cure for themselves”
Actually, you recent antics on AutAdvo prove pretty much the opposite.
“I also speak against those (whose brains don’t work right) who advise people against considering chelation.”
You arrogant bastard. There you go again. If someone (quite rightly, like it or not) might disagree with your position, you have to go and denigrate them. That is pretty much the most arrogant stand I’ve ever seen. You’re a piece of shit… you always were.
“Some autistic people (whose brains don’t work right) and others think it is a good idea to try to prevent parents (whose brains do work right) from helping their children whose brains don’t work right.”
Talk about offensive!!!!!
Your child’s wasted on you.
KevL: “Has everyone else noticed how the tone of this thread has improved since the absence of a certain someone?”
Looks like the c*ntsucker’s back.
JB: “I tell them the reason for this is because doctors put poison in his brain.”
Of course you can prove this to the satisfaction of a court of law, right? Because if not, you just committed an act of libel.
JB: “They have enough problems because they are autistic (their brains don’t work right). ”
There’s manyt psychiatrists would agree with me that yours don’t work right, to tell you that truth.
JB: “That’s why I go to the bother of stating my opinion whenever I see nonsense that was written by people whose brains don’t work right.”
You arrogant fucking idiot.
Maybe we should put you in a court of law where you’d have to prove your idiotic assertions to the satisfaction of a judge.
You’d fail.
You would fail for one reason, JB… and that is because you’re a failure as a psychology graduate, and you’re a failure as a parent.
And that’s all the world needs to know abotu you, isn’t it?
And it comes out in your very nastily formulated and pointed attacks on people who basically just disagree with you and your religiously-held belief that you and your ilk have the monopoly on truth.
You’re a sad bastard, JB. Never gonna be anything else.
I pity your kid.
Ms C: “I am really glad that JBjr stopped acting the troll on the aut advo group. What a relief.”
Yeh, big relief.
He left the forum. Must have realised that he was losing. Couldn’t handle it and left with tail between legs… not even a parting shot.
What a fucking WUSS!
As the mother of a recently diagnosed duaghter, I remain on the fence on this debate and have found this chain to be entertaining and, at times, somewhat helpful.
Ms. Clark,
I am a particular fan of your Diva Blog, we are very similar. You call this Buttar DPMS snake oil. What about some of the other chelators? I noticed Mr. Handley also endorses oral chelators. I noticed Oral DMSA is FDA-approved, and I find many more success stories about it. Your comments are appreciated.
At times, Mr. Handley appears boorish and filled with zealotry, at times a caring Dad. I must admit that his last post warmed me to him quite a bit, and I’m more interested in his message, which feels quite credible. I reviewed the opening debate he offered for Mr. Keith, and I eagerly await a response.
Mr. Andrews, I urge you look back at your posts as I think they have devolved and neither serve you nor your position (of which I am quite sympathetic and interested) – why stoop to Mr. Best’s level?
– annonannie
What it comes down to is that the brains just don’t work right.
Well, they don’t work the same, no, and sometimes there are some serious issues with that, but there are also advantages, and a good many autistics can and do go on to lead productive lives. I’ve said before that I’m convinced that half the computer science department in the university where my husband works is autistic in one form or another.
Basically, though, it seems like just another repeat of the tired old “different is bad” crap that gets shoved down our collective throats all the time.
I feel badly for any child whose parents tell him and anyone else who will listen how defective he is, how screwed up his brain in, and how bad he is. That’s a hell of a self-image to grow up with.
Hey Bonnie,
I haven’t been able, in all my life, to get around the concept touted by some that difference is bad.
Anyone gifted is different – is that BAD?
Anyone in a wheelchair is different – is that BAD?
Any woman, any person of colour, any gay person or lesbian, any blind, deaf, person with epilepsy, any elderly person……. is DIFFERENT……….
and, like, from what?
From ‘average’
Thank goodness all of us are DIFFERENT.
Our difference creates an average.Let’s live with it.
BJ, you are so right!
As for John Best’s revolting bigotry, it would have fit right into various time periods in the past.
1855: Some blacks (whose brains don’t work right) and others think it is a good idea to try to prevent whites (whose brains do work right) from helping (owning) their black slaves whose brains don’t work right.
1905: Some women (whose brains don’t work right) and others think it is a good idea to try to prevent men (whose brains do work right) from helping (beating) their wives whose brains don’t work right.
1955: Some gays (whose brains don’t work right) and others think it is a good idea to try to prevent straights (whose brains do work right) from helping their gay children whose brains don’t work right.
As for the sort of “help” that was considered suitable for gays, Lovaas originally developed ABA as a means of “treating” young boys who were believed to be gay because they played with feminine toys:
http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_rekers_1974.html
2005: The more things change…