Blogging Housekeeping And David Kirby

12 Jan

I’ve been in email communication with David Kirby over the last week or so. You may remember that I wrote awhile ago about how a New York Times interview quoted Kirby as saying that if the amount of cases of autism didn’t decrease before the end of 2005 then that would be a severe blow to the autism/thiomersal hypothesis.

The confusion stemmed from Kirby claiming 2 months later in an email conversation with blogger Citizen Cain the exact same thing but this time with a date of 2007. I wondered why Kirby had moved the goalposts.

At the time I was predisposed to put it down to trying to wriggle out of a stated position but the more I thought about it, the less likely that seemed so I mailed David Kirby to ask him. He responded:

Many thanks for your note. The Times misquoted me. I actually asked for a correction, but did not receive one. What I told the reporter is that “we should know in the next few years.” I believe this is also what I said on Meet the Press.

Which is true. The transcription shows that thats exactly what happened. Kirby went on to say:

The Times wrote: *Because autism is usually diagnosed sometime between a child’s third and fourth birthdays and thimerosal was largely removed from childhood vaccines in 2001, the incidence of autism should fall this year, he said.* When I said “the next few years,” I meant by around 2007. I would never say “this year,” and that is why I requested the correction.

All in all then, I think I have to apologies to David Kirby in this instance. Its pretty bad of a prestigious newspaper like the NYT to actively mislead people like this and its very perplexing as to why they wouldn’t issue a retraction or correction in such a vitally important matter but thats not Kirby’s fault any more than it is mine so I think we have to take Kirby at his word here and go by what he wrote in Evidence of Harm and repeated on Meet the Press.

What we can do is take Rick Rollens to task though. He actually _did_ state that the first fall off would come last year. David Kirby again:

I did, however, quote Rick Rollens as saying “the first impacted birth cohort should start showing up in 2005.” But that is Rick’s opinion, not mine.

So – confusion alleviated. We can all go back to watching 2007.

113 Responses to “Blogging Housekeeping And David Kirby”

  1. Jennifer January 16, 2006 at 01:41 #

    Sue M. wrote:

    “-Actually, Jennifer, I got my information from the same Canadian websites that you did only my information was from December of 2005:

    http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/05vol31/asc-dcc-12/

    – As you will see they state that:

    “Currently, in Canada, some multidose preparations of influenza or hepatitis B vaccines are the only thimerosal-containing products that might be offered to children as part of the routine childhood immunization schedule”.”

    Jennifer replies:

    The crux of the autism=mercury hypothesis is that the increasing load of mercury being injected into infants in the US in the late 1990’s was responsible for the rising incidence of diagnosis of ASD’s. In Canada, yes, there is still some mercury in vaccines. But, in the most heavily populated province, HepB is not recommended as an infant vaccine, in fact, it is recommended at age 12, when one might expect some sexual contact to occur

    Click to access schedule.pdf

    The coverage of flu vaccine is very low. So, the majority of kids in Canada get no thimerisol until they are age 12. Even if they get a flu shot, they won’t get anything close to the amount of mercury that is hypothesized to have created the autism epidemic. (187.5 micrograms)

    http://www.thimerosal-litigation.com/html/burton_speech.html

    Children in Canada get way less than 187.5 micrograms of mercury. Many get 0 micrograms. The incidence in Canada should be much lower than in the US, if the autism=mercury hypothesis is correct.

    Jennifer

  2. María Luján January 16, 2006 at 02:14 #

    Hi Jennifer
    Your point is very important against the thimerosal supposed connection. Therefore, for Canadien children the amount of thimerosal is far less than in the case of USA.
    I wonder if you can be interested on sharing some thoughts about the possibility of other collaborators in the case of Canada. For example, the immune/autoimmune problems .
    Do Canada have a high number of autoimmune disease (Multiple sclerosis, lupus, etc)?
    IS it the vaccination schedule too much crowded? For example several vaccines per visit?
    It includes the MMR with another vaccine, very close to the DPT?
    Sorry if you are not interested. Please let me know. Because we are going off topic I think that we can follow the discussion off the Kevin´s forum in respect to him and the other posters. What do you think?
    Thank you in advance

    María Luján

  3. Sue M. January 16, 2006 at 03:55 #

    Ms. Clark wrote:

    ” And everyone gasped and clutched their hearts and said, “DEAR GAWD WHAT HAVE WE DONE????” And the antivaxers cheered with glee as they had another reason to pound their war-drums against vaccines. The mercury moms many of whom became dyed-in-the-wool flaming “vaccines will kill us all” flaming antivaxers based on Blaxill’s graph, cried, ‘THE VACCINES” save our babies”!

    – Do you want to try out for an extra part in “The Jailbirds”?

    -Sue M.

  4. Ms Clark January 16, 2006 at 09:32 #

    Dear Sue M.

    There is no movie upcoming called, “the jailbirds” and the people you named earlier have committed no crimes, and neither have I.

    So far, I’m guessing you are part of the “vaclib” type thinkers. The “plan” is to keep hammering away at all vaccines until y’all get them entirely stopped, am I right? No child has been poisoned by injections of vaccines containing thimerosal. Saying that they have is just really wrong and delusional.

    The Amy Holmes paper is bunk, the Hornig paper is bunk, Rollens’ DDS numbers are bunk, the IDEA numbers have been grossly misrepresented, there’s no fetal tissue in vaccines, even if David Kirby says there is (and he has said that there is at at least one DAN! conference according to someone who attended it), the Burbacher paper proves nothing about autism, DAN! needs you all to keep using the commercial labs like Doctor’s Data, even though local labs can do the same tests…Doctor’s Data’s data is highly suspect. Transdermal DMPS never did chelate, so Buttar’s moved on to dangerous IV chelation and the mercury parents are now looking at dangerous administrationis of gold salts. Wakefield’s in trouble and may lose his license to practice in Britain and will probably live happily ever after in Argentina or Venezuela. Bradstreet inflates his credentials and does HBOT before he finds out if it’s safe and laughs about that. Dr. Jang nearly kills a kid with vitamin A. Kerry kills Abubakar and the mercury parents give a big yawn, for the most part. Much of this hysteria is driven by a desire to make a killing off of lawsuits, though not all parents are part of the law suit some thousands are.

    The whole vaccine/autism thing is so ridiculous. Hollywood has bought the rights to the David Kirby story, they just might expose the whole thing for what it is, a sham and a nightmare for parents who have wasted their money on chelation and meb12 and RNA drops, HBOT and secretin. That’s a movie I just might go see.

  5. mouseker January 16, 2006 at 10:48 #

    Jonathan I never said the Bill had anything to do with biomedical. In fact I very clearly said the article was published in an education publication.

    MAría Luján You are correct that the different deliveries cause different diseases as demonstrated by the difference between Mad Hatters (on job mercury exposure) disease and Pink’s disease (mercury containing baby products). However the fact that thimerosal is different isn’t better it’s worse actually because Dr. Haley has been able to show that when mercury is mixed with certain other metals it gets even more toxic. Also yet thimerosal contains ethylmercury BUT this just makes it easier to bond to the cells in the brain and part of the process of getting rid of ethyl mercury is to convert it to melthylmurcury.

    I am sure that changing the diagnostic criteria had some influence on the numbers but not enough to account for this kind of an increase. I used to to work as a teachers aid, the teacher whose class I worked in had been teaching for quite a number of years and she also noticed the dramatic increase in kids in her classroom who were not just autistic but add and adhd too. School nurses have said the same things. Why was it only a research label prior to the 1980’s? There weren’t enough cases for people to be familiar with the term. Now there are so many they are using it in TV episodes. I don’t have to look at numbers to know that there has been a dramatic increase in actual cases. You were asking about the difference in numbers today and before. This is why so many people want to use the DDS’s numbers their diagnostic criteria stayed the same for so long. I don’t think the variables you listed can be quanitified as you pointed out the criteria can vary from Dr. to Dr. and state to state.

    I also have to agree with a lot of your post that while mercury can be a trigger for genetically predisposed individuals there probably are other triggers too and exposure isn’t just from the shots. But if you compare the amounts in the environment and in the shots you will find that the greatest amount of preventable exposure is from the vaccines (including flu shots). However I do not agree that the doctors were wrong. Not according to the DSMV. And if you are going to rediagnose this case as mercury poisoning then you will have to rediagnose a whole lot of kids as mercury poisoning which would make a lot of us parents who believe our kids were mercury poisoned, very happy. We would also love to have a -derivation to a toxicologist- who is trained to test for mercury.

    Kev, I was not implying the rest of you were dimwits. I wanted you to understand that I didn’t just jump on the bandwagon blind and put all of my blind faith into the -snake oil sellers- as has previously been implied.

    Also that first link was very interesting especially how when the mother is exposed it is higher in the cord blood than in the mother. I also found it interesting that they went to women who work in the dental field to do this study.

    And while the criteria in the DSMV may not list many of the physical problems of autism I know that my son and others have quite a few of the physical symptoms listed on that link. I also found it interesting that one child had severe problems while the other had only mild kidney inflamation. Was it due to the difference in exposure levels or genetics? OR both?

    I also find it interesting that Mercury poisoning to date has manifest differently with different forms of exposure. I personally think there are enough similarities to make a strong arguement that autism is A FORM of mercury poisoning.

    The symptoms I listed for Carson may not all be in the DSMV but you will find everyone of them listed on the Autism Society of Americ’s website as red flags to look for if you think your child is Autistic. DSMV criteria: 1.B. Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years: (1) social interaction, (2) language as used in social communication, or (3) symbolic or imaginative play. According to the article he has delays in two areas there fore the doctors would be correct. Even sectioJust because the article didn’t list all of the symptoms doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Not responding to your name being called is one of the classic signs of autism listed in the DSMV or not. The DSMV doesn’t require a child to have every one of the criteria to be diagnosed as autistic even in Section one it says a child ony has to have six or more.

    Ms. Clark: I do hear you, I just don’t agree.
    Sue M: I think she’d be great she has the dramatic flair.

    I can tell you what you will have to do to get us mad mercury mothers to believe any statistical study. It would have to be done by doctors who have ZERO affiliations with ANY drug companies. Who do not get research grants, or are paid consultants or who will sign a contract stating that they will never, ever work for one. Then lets see what they come up with.

    To accuse the labs of a conspiracy and then turn around and lambast those of us who don’t trust big pharma is the “pot calling the kettle black.” Espicially after we’ve seen the complete lack of conscience large corporations can have when the truth about big tobacco came out. Sorry this is so long I don’t get much chance throughout the day to get on the computer.

  6. María Luján January 16, 2006 at 12:52 #

    Hi mouseker
    I want to do a clarification to you. I tried to point out that different Hg exposure routes can have different impact depending on individual.I also think that Hg from thimerosal will be worse than Hg ingested or inhalated because is injected and therefore the impact can be stronger than the other different ways of exposure in susceptible individuals, especially because in vaccines is injected with Al compounds , other preservants and toxoid or viruses, opening the possibility of symergies in the impact. Thimerosal is considered to break down to ethyl mercury and after to inorganic mercury after injection. The metabolic path has not been studied enough beyond this, as it has been published unfortunately many times the need of further studies.
    In the case of Hg it is certain that the amount from vaccines, considering the full vaccination schedule, is very high in comparison with others potential sources- occasional consumption of fish, for example and considering the potential of impact in susceptible children. From vaccines, depending on the number given per visit these are “bolus dose”. But I also think that contamination from other sources must be considered in the case of Hg ( fish, amalgams, air) and from other heavy metals (Pb, Cd, As, etc) because of the individual susceptibility and the accumulation in time.
    MAría Luján

  7. Ms Clark January 16, 2006 at 16:22 #

    If people believe that a particular product of “Big Pharma” was produced haphazardly and is harming people, they can test that belief by looking at how the drug was created and by the effects it has on people.

    Not every drug produced by “Big Pharma” is bad. Most people are very grateful for most of the drugs produced by “Big Pharma”. Most people think vaccines are great, just like David Kirby thinks vaccines are “great.”

    If someone thinks that the commercial labs are lying to parents, they can check that out, too. but they won’t… except Dr. Laidler, and he found out that Doctor’s Data lab was hideously off on it’s reading of mercury in 2 samples of identical mercury free mock-urine.

    There is good reason to suspect the whole construct of DAN! doctors all using basically one (maybe 3 or 4) mail order labs, when doctors all have access to local labs.

    See? Like I don’t have the right to write up an order for a lab to test my dog’s blood or my child’s blood or my blood (hair, urine, feces…). But the thing about being a doctor is that they have these labs in their neighborhoods that they send their patient’s specimens to, unless they can do a particular test right in their offices like they can “dip” urine to see if it’s likely to be off on some measurement and they can look at urine under a microscope to see if there are white blood cells in it… but they send it off to a lab to be cultured to see if a particular bug is in it…

    But, even though most of the DAN! docs are MDs or DOs who have these local labs they usually work with, the DAN! docs use Doctor’s Data or one of the two “Great” labs. Which are known to have dicey results and produce dicey interpretations of the results.

    So, if you all like the idea of getting second-rate lab results for lots of money, go for it, or rather, keep going for it. Then dose your kids will all kinds of questionable treatments, like RNA drops and chelation and massive doses of vitamin A and b12 and go ahead and dabble with gold salts and we’ll all sit here and hold our collective breath hoping that none of your kids end up in a morgue like little Abubakar. OK?

    Personally, I hope that Big Pharma doesn’t stop making medications, but I also hope that the mail order labs are shut down permanently. But that’s just me.

    One difference between Pinks disease and the undocumented “Mad Hatter’s” disease (so far as I know there have been no studies on this in hatters since its an ancient disease…but there might be some good stuff on mercury vapor inhalation….) would be, ummmm, lets think, now, Pinks disease came about from a

    teething powder?

    Um, yeah, something put on babies gums when they are, um, teething, and still babies… yeah, little, very young, um, babies…

    and the “Mad Hatters” were um, also, babies, little, very young, um, babies….. right?

    People who get overdosed with mercury have peripheral nerve damage and they get constricted vision. Babies and kids who get microscopic tiny amounts of mercury in thimerosal in vaccines don’t get peripheral nerve damage or constricted vision, at least no one is arguing that they get either. Though now I expect someone to say that all the newborns got peripheral nerve damage and constricted vision after the newborn Hep B vaccine in the 1990s. Why? Because you make stuff up to fit your belief system all the time, just like you move the goal posts and play the shell game with the cause of the non-existent autism epidemic all the time. You all are trying to perpetrate a fraud.

    The form that mercury is in makes a difference as to how much it takes to poison a person. The form thimerosal is in makes it safer than other forms. People have been dosing themselves with thimerosal for a long time and there was no noticed connection between normal use of merthiolate on open cuts or thimerosal in contact lens solutions and eye drops…or nose spray with any serious problems, just allergic reactions. Mercurochrome which is a different but similar stuff to merthiolate is available over the counter in some countries today and people aren’t noticing a problem caused by its usage at normal rates. Anything can be a poison, obviously vitamin A can be a poison, but that doesn’t mean we should all be terrified of it at all concentrations or in all its forms.

    You might want to reread this if you haven’t already.
    http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2005/12/dr-amy-holmes-was-just-trying-to-help.html

    http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/2/201
    mercury poisoning as Pinks disease causes pink hands and feet and desquamation, too.

  8. Sue M. January 16, 2006 at 16:27 #

    Ms. Clark wrote:

    “Much of this hysteria is driven by a desire to make a killing off of lawsuits, though not all parents are part of the law suit some thousands are”.

    – So, those of us NOT involved in any type of lawsuit whatsoever are just in it for what? I actually take a lot of comfort in your rants, Camille. It shows me that you are not about looking logically at things… you are about ranting and raving. When you say things such as:

    “And the cult members stick their fingers in their ears and sing loudly , “la la la I can’t hear you! la la la!”

    – I would encourage you to take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror. What do you see? Are you open to new ideas? Are you open to discussions? I think that if people are being honest here (your friends) they probably cringe MORE than I do when I see your rants…

    -Sue M.

  9. clone3g January 16, 2006 at 16:39 #

    mousseeker: However the fact that thimerosal is different isn’t better it’s worse actually because Dr. Haley has been able to show that when mercury is mixed with certain other metals it gets even more toxic.

    If you are going to recite passages from the EoH bible at least try to get the made-up facts right. Haley has not been able to show that when mercury is mixed with certain other metals it gets even more toxic. Show me where he that is demonstrated.

    Also yet thimerosal contains ethylmercury BUT this just makes it easier to bond to the cells in the brain and part of the process of getting rid of ethyl mercury is to convert it to melthylmurcury

    This sounds like you may be talking about the Burbacher thing but it’s hard to be sure from your interpretation. Are you talking about microbial methylation of mercury in the environment or human brain detoxification pathways? If it’s the latter, ethylmercury is not methylated in the brain as “part of the process of getting rid of it.” The latest revision of the mercury hypothesis (rev.10.02) says that it’s the inorganic (that means no methyl and ethyl) mercury is accumulating in the brain causing microglial activation such as that observed by Vargas et al, but not observed by Burbacher et al.

    I know that keeping track of the ever changing mercury hypothesis is like trying to nail Jell-O to a tree but try to stay current.

  10. Jonathan Semetko January 16, 2006 at 17:17 #

    Hi Mouseker,

    Re the Bill and Biomed; I see your point, but the context you used doesn’t make it clear what you were implying. I clarified.

    I know several special education teachers (two of them are relatives) who mentioned that the kids now being called “autistic” look a lot like the kids that used to get services under other labels. By the way, the “Autism” service category wasn’t put in the IDEA until 1991. That IDEA version of autism doesn’t use the same criteria (depending on the State) as the DSM-IV uses for “Autistic Disorder”. In other words before 1991, if a child was autistic the only way the teacher would know is if the parents told them, it would not be found on the IEP.

    Also, if one reviews the descriptive epidemiology then one will see that the big jump didn’t hit until 1987-1988. The addition of autism to the DSM in 1980 can not be correlated to a previous prevalence rate increase.

  11. Ms Clark January 17, 2006 at 01:04 #

    I’m open to new ideas, Sue, just not open to believing any old stuff that people just make up.

    I have plenty of private “conversations” with the others who post here and they have never told me that my “rants” were a problem, but I’m sure they will now, if they think they are a problem. It’s funny though, that the totally needless death of a little boy and the poisoning of another little boy, and the potential for this happening again, aren’t supposed to make people a little angry and produce “ranting behavior.”

    If I see a child about to be killed by a falling object, should I remain calm, lest I be accuse of “ranting,” or should I yell “get that kid out of the way!!!” and grimace and wave my arms about in the hopes of saving him from harm?

    No, it’s “lets all remain perfectly calm while children are being killed and poisoned by well-meaning but deceived parents.”

    I have a problem with that. You don’t. Thanks for sharing, Sue.

  12. Sue M. January 17, 2006 at 02:47 #

    Ms. Clark wrote:

    “No, it’s “lets all remain perfectly calm while children are being killed and poisoned by well-meaning but deceived parents.”

    I have a problem with that. You don’t. Thanks for sharing, Sue”.

    – Fascinating, Camille. I actually could have written the above statement. The one about remaining perfectly calm while children are being killed and poisoned by well-meaning but deceived parents. It sounds like something I would have written. So, while we completely disagree on most topics, we agree here. The problem is, obviously, that I believe that the “poison” is coming via certain vaccinations and/or other toxic assaults. That is, in fact, the reason why so many of us will continue to push this forward. We won’t let up.

    -Sue M.

  13. Sue M. January 17, 2006 at 03:38 #

    Ms. Clark wrote:

    “The Fed’s IDEA numbers show the same drop in MR parallelling the increase in autism. That’s stat analysis I have done myself and any of you can do the same thing.

    No one is crying about the loss of kids from the MR label for some reason.

    Diagnostic substitution”.

    – Now, I would ask you why aren’t our “officials” screaming about this? Why aren’t they calming everyone’s fears by showing them these numbers. Showing the decrease in MR vs. the increase in autism cases? I can’t imagine that they would sit on this information for so long if it were so damn obvious (or accurate)… Help me to understand why they would allow all this speculation if it were that easy. I may have been born at night, but not last night.

    -Sue M.

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