OK – before I start its important for me to confess to a conflict of interest in this matter. As a fresh faced young man, Sigourney Weaver formed part of my Godess Trifecta in that I lusted after her, Gillian Anderson and Geena Davis with equal amounts of teenage/twenties lechery.
Ms Weaver has recently finished filming Snowcake in which she plays an autistic woman whos daughter dies in a car crash. My good friend, the incomparable Autism Diva has written a piece about it here.
During an interview, Ms Weaver said:
“I think we have to begin to see it [autism] as a gift,” she told a news conference. “We may not understand what it’s there for, but if you’re in the presence of someone with autism you learn so much. You learn how to play, you learn how to see things, you learn how to experience things and how jarring the world is.”
I have to say that despite my teenage carnal desires for Ms Weaver (OK, OK, I still have them) I don’t agree with her stating that ‘autism is a gift’. I don’t agree with it for the same reason that I don’t agree with the ‘autism is hell/death sentence/evil/etc’ viewpoint. Both views, taken literally, are misleading and superficial. Its my opinion that autism simply ‘is’. To be autistic is to be autistic. To be right-handed is to be right-handed. To be gay is to be gay. None of the states of being have moral or ethical states associated intrinsically with them and they don’t, in my view, need that status thrust on them either.
That said, its difficult to disagree with the positivity my future bride Ms Weaver brings to the state of being autistic and how we as NT’s can relate to it positively.
As ever though, there’s a bunch of literalists who still can’t see the woods for the trees:
A gift to whom? Surely not the person with autism, or his or her family. Perhaps actresses in search of roles? If autism is a gift, what’s terminal brain cancer? Hitting the Lotto?
…If I sent her a letter I think that it would be along the lines of telling her how very happy it would make me to have her experience this ‘gift’ in her own life, ie, by injecting HER with enough toxins to destroy her body and mind.
Ms. Weaver is no doubt confused over the junk label “high functioning autism.” It is not too late for her to personally experience the joy of autism. I’m sure she could find one of those mercury lusting doctors to shoot her up enough Thimerosal for her to join the bandwagon of the neurologically injured. OK, that’s my sarcastic take.
What a bunch of me-me’s. These are the people who refer to themselves, with no apparent irony, as the autism community.
However, there was one great post on EoH which I have pleasure in quoting in full:
Well, even though I know this is gonna open a can of worms, I agree with her. When I’m in the presence of people with autism, I do learn a great deal. I learn acceptance of others who I would not have accepted as people only a few years ago. I learn that the person with autism has just as much dignity and right to be respected as anyone else. I also learn what pure love is and how scary it is for people with autism to trust others because they are often ridiculed by others. I teach my daughter every day that having autism should be source of pride; to contrast, it certainly isn’t something she should be ashamed
of. Yes we work on healing her body, but I’m proud of her and want her to have pride in herself regardless of treatment status. Because people with autism can suffer with horrid medical conditions and the people who care from them suffer does not mean people with autism are not wonderful people. From what I read, that’s the meaning I got from her, that people with autism need love, respect, and acceptance.
Debi, if you ever read this, you may be alarmed to know that you’re frighteningly close to espousing something very very close to what I think of as neurodiversity. Good on you for seeing the bigger picture.
Then we swung back to comedy:
Well, she’s just an actress…and unfortunately, we place too much value on the opinions of actors in this country.
Something of an irony when one considers that in the EoH file repository is a document that contains the sentence:
Finally, for the ultimate inspiration, here is a video of actor Lou Diamond Phillips introducting a cast of recovered autistic children
Many people on the EoH list suggested emailing the films writer Angela Pell to let her know that she obviously had no idea about the hell of autism. Apparently they missed the bit where Ms Pell is described as having an autistic son and therefore knows just as well as they do both the lowpoints and the highpoints of parenting an autistic child.
And you are the parent of a child diagnosed with autism, everyday you are immersed in your child’s life and you deal
with the hardships that come with autism. You have a right to say that. Weaver doesn’t. Weaver is talking about what other people can get out of people with autism. She is not part of our community, she hasn’t paid her dues.
Just to reiterate for the hard of comprehension – Ms Weaver is an actress, playing a role written for her by someone _just like you_ – the parent of an autistic child. All the words she utters were put in her mouth by the writer. Her beliefs have come from interacting with Ms Pell, Ms Pell’s son and people like him – y’know – autistic people.
In the post quoted above Gilmore goes on to say:
Our children are gifts and we should be grateful for them exactly the way they are. This is exactly what the neurodiversity types are saying.
Not quite John. I don’t consider autism a gift or a curse – it simply is what it is. Also, no one is saying you should ignore bad situations. What I’m saying as someone who respects the state of being autistic is that _that’s_ whats important – respect. You don’t have to be grateful for anything other than the fact that you managed to have a healthy living child. Some people don’t even get that. Whining on about ‘its not fair’ is pointless.
Then there’s the usual mistaken identities:
Sigourney Weaver is more than welcome to join me at the IEP meeting at my son’s school. Maybe she can make them understand that my son has been granted the “gift” of a comprehension level of a preschooler when he is 9 years old.
I’m not sure I would consider the way other children treat my son “really good fun”. I wonder if he’s having fun when they pull his hat over his eyes or just grab it off and throw it as far as they can. It’s not “really good fun” for me to try to explain to him that these children are not his friends. Apparently it is “really good fun” for these children that my son does have “high-functioning autism” Maybe Ms. Weaver and Ms. Pell would like to take a trip to Long Island and see “the gift” my son enjoys every day.
Both tragic, horrifying situations but *not the fault of autism*. One is the fault of a schools ignorance and one is the fault of bad parenting by the people Cathie’s son has to deal with.
We really do have to find a way to move away from demonising a state of being that simply is what it is. The fact that its still poorly understood, badly catered to and swept aside is something that parents should be campaigning about – not getting caught up in fictional causative arguments.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Kev,
I saw those posts when they came out.
I greatly agree with your conclusions. Autism is neither a Hell nor a gift. It is a fundemental difference of congntion that is reflected in behavior and documented in the research
e.g. (the work of Dawson and Mottron).
I don’t want us to forget though, that this fundamental difference means that autistic may be good (or even profoundly gifted) at things I dreadful at due to their different type of learning. Just like the fact that I learn a certain way means that I am good at some things autistics are not so good at.
Thank you for your excellent post about this.
Jonathan:
Please enlighten us about the fundamental difference of cognition that is reflected in behavior and documented in the research of Dawson and Mottron. I am not at all familiar with any of their research. Aasa
I think much of the anger, whatever it is, comes from the idea that we “SHOULD” be able to choose whether or not we get an autistic brain or a child with an autistic brain.
We “should” somehow be able to accept the “gift” or refuse the “curse”.
But the thing is, LIFE IS NOT LIKE THAT.
Sorry, for the yelling.
The mercury parents are trying to deal with the fact that they have precious unique children, and I think that they all believe that down deep, even the ones who are busy “hatingautism(dotblogspotdotcom)”. But they can’t allow themselves to publicly say even one nice thing about autism because it weakens the legal case against thimerosal manufacturers or whover they are suing.
But it’s not just for public consumption, their kids hear the stuff.
“Autism is a curse as bad as brain cancer” and that translates to
translates to, “I wish my child would go away and never come back.” “I wish my child was never born.”
One of the first lines in the movie “mozart and the whale” is something like, “I wasn’t the kid my parents wanted.”
My children knew and know that I loved and I love them, that I’d give my life up for them, that I gave up a lot for them.
I dreamed of having brainy kids like me, and got two that are very interesting, but not big on reading or writing or math. The mostly NT is finally getting into a foreign language, one my long time dreams for my kids. I think that if I had indicated what a disappointment they were that I couldn’t talk intellectual stuff with them at length, they’d hate me.
Anyway, good thing for them that I like to talk about stuff that isn’t intellectual. Dogs, dogs are always good. 🙂
Hi Aasa,
You wrote:
“Please enlighten us about the fundamental difference of cognition that is reflected in behavior and documented in the research of Dawson and Mottron. I am not at all familiar with any of their research. Aasaâ€.
It would be beneficial, I think, to start with a review of existing literature. As you see, the cognitive differences seem very global in terms of what aspect of cognition they affect.
Dr. Mottron has authored/co-authored a respectable amount of research into various aspects of how autistic cognition is fundamentally different. I have provided an incomplete list of citations below. I encourage you to read them. At minimum you should access the abstracts via pub med, through searching the first authors’ names http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/
Lahaei et al (2006). Face perception in high-functioning autistic adults: evidence for superior processing of face parts, not for a configural face-processing deficit. Neuropsychology.
Mottron et al. (2006). Non-Algorithmic Access to Calendar Information in a Calendar Calculator with Autism. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders.
Bertone et al. (2005). Enhanced and diminished visuo-spatial information processing in autism depends on stimulus complexity. Brain: A Journal of Neurology.
Ristic et al. (2005). Eyes are special but not for everyone: the case of autism. Brain Research. Cognitive Brain Research.
Vlamings et al. (2005). Atypical visual orienting to gaze- and arrow-cues in adults with high functioning autism. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders.
Gagnon et al. (2004). Quantification judgement in high functioning autism: superior or different? Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders.
Caron et al. (2004). Do high functioning persons with autism present superior spatial abilities? Neuropsychologia.
Mottron et al. (2003). Locally oriented perception with intact global processing among adolescents with high-functioning autism: evidence from multiple paradigms. Journal Of Child Psychology And Psychiatry.
Bonnel et al. (2003). Enhanced pitch sensitivity in individuals with autism: a signal detection analysis. Journal Of Cognitive Neuroscience.
And for Madame Dawson:
Mottron, Dawson, Soulieres, Hubert, & Burack (2006). Enhanced Perceptual Functioning in Autism: An Update, and Eight Principles of Autistic Perception. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders.
You can read a discussion on her site of another study she conducted which involved autistic persons’ performance on various IQ tests. This was not entered into a journal article, but was accepted for presentation at a major autism conference. http://www.sentex.net/~nexus23/naa_imfar.html I highly recommend it and found it most interesting.
Please let me know if you have trouble locating these resources and I will do my very best to provide you with them.
Happy Reading,
-Jonathan
Dear Kevin,
I think your “teenage carnal desires” for Ms. Weaver have addled your brain. How else to explain your surprisingly addle-pated observation that: Autism “is” what it “is”.
Now all you have to do is define “is” so that even Bill Clinton can understand what “is” is?
Hi Bob,
Getting past what I _guess_ is an attempt at sarcasm (I’m not sure as its pretty inept) I think you’re asking me to define the word ‘is’ in relation to autism.
Its really very simple. Autism is, in my opinion, a state of being. It has no need for moral judgements to be pushed on it. Its neither good nor evil – it just is, in the same way skin colour, favoured limb use, sexuality, whatever – just are. This goes beyond causation.
How about you Bob? How do you define autism?
“We really do have to find a way to move away from demonising a state of being that simply is what it is.”
Kevin, I’ve been been considering this point for the past couple of days (personally, within comments between me and blogger Not Mercury, and elsewhere). Why is the attraction to demonising, as you put it, this state of being, so strong?
Why is explanation of difference as defect so prevalent?
Why is a message of hope preferred over voices of reason?
Why is acceptance of “is” so difficult for what seems to be the masses,
(many parents of autistic kids included)?
I’m not advocating do nothing vs. provide a life of acceptance, opportunity, health, and happiness (like many parents for any child).
I do want to figure out how we arrived at the current apparently status-quo.
Where does media influence fit in?
Where does religion fit in?
Where does morality in general fit in?
Your thoughts would be most appreciated.
“your “teenage carnal desires†for Ms. Weaver have addled your brain.”
Bob, don’t let Sigourney catch you saying that.
Kev, thanks for posting these insightful bits. It’s like I have an RSS feed for the stuff I’d actually like to hear from EoH without having to subscribe. Hearing comments like these and the ones Jennifer? posted about the Hulda Clarke / sauna / chelation fanatic keep reminding me about some of the most important things in life: family, happiness, and the avoidance of blind faith.
I suppose it’s all in the way you choose to look at something. Catastrophic? A living hell?
I choose to look at all life as a gift. There are hidden gifts in all of humanity. I don’t see Weaver’s comment as offensive as you do.
Understanding and empathy come one tiny step at a time. At least we have someone in the media who paints a different picture of autism. While her comment may be a little naive, it is not all that misinformed. Let’s just keep working to raise awareness about difference and tolerance of difference.
Estee
I don’t really think of autism as a gift, but it is possible to transcend all manner of difficulties, or at least use them in ways that are positive, and from struggle can come tremendous strength.
I don’t know what Sigourney was thinking with her comment. I’d have to talk to her, hear what she said in context, etc. etc., but perhaps she was thinking of “blessing” in the Biblical sense, in the sense that the weak, the poor, those to whom injustice is done, those are the ones who are “blessed”. James said that Job (who lost everything in highly traumatic ways and had friends who were anything but comforting) was blessed, Jesus gave the famous Sermon on the Mount on the nature of “blessings”.
Gifts are not always wrapped up in happy little packages and tied with shiny, happy bows.
And just so that nobody is unclear, I’m not “preaching”. I’m using these examples from the Bible because this is what comes to mind when I think of “blessings” and “gifts”, and because I’m a strong believer in the concept that from adversity can come strength, beauty, transformation, healing, and many, many other good things. A good many religions have concepts very similar to this; I just happen to be most immediately familiar with the Judeo-Christian versions is all.
Maybe, just maybe, from struggling with autism, from loving an autistic person, from working to get beyond the stereotypes and preconceptions and so forth, good things might come. That sounds like a blessing to me.
You know (and I’m sure this is redundant for those in the audience with half a brain), I feel like autism is in no way a gift – it certainly isn’t something that you would want to give anyone.
On the other hand, my son Jared is undoubtedly a gift. He’s improved every part of my life, and made me a far better person that I was. Part of that is the fact that he’s my son, but part of it is also his autism. As frustrating and exhausting and frightening as parenting a child with autism can be, I know that living with autism is all those things and more for Jared – and he’s dealing with it at 6 instead of 31 and has no escape from it. And that drives me to work harder, to be more patient, and to give him the best life that he can have.
And the difference between “Autism (meaning the condition) is a gift” and “Autism (meaning the people with the condition) is a gift” is too small to be important. Especially when we’re talking about somebody who isn’t actually in the community.
So I’d say that while what Ms. Weaver said may have been literally wrong, the spirit of her statement is dead on. What’s odd is that she’s still closer to the truth than all those parents you cited.
And while I never thought she all that hot, there is a special place in my heart for Ellen Ripley.
I thought you might enjoy this article from the Globe and Mail. It’s about a young woman with Rett’s syndrome. Not exactly autism, but sometimes considered on the spectrum.
LIVES LIVED
Aniko Brobeck
JANE GEORGE
Daughter, sister, friend, inspiration. Born Sept. 22, 1975. Died Aug. 7, 2005, in Cookshire, Que., of complications from Rett Syndrome, aged 29.
If, as the Wizard of Oz said to the Tin Man, “a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others,” then Aniko was very big-hearted, indeed.
Yet there were many things Aniko couldn’t say or do: she was unable to talk or to walk without assistance. Nevertheless, Aniko managed to forge loving relationships with those knew her. “When Aniko smiled, her whole face would light up, and when she’d laugh, it could make your heart leap, for you knew she was experiencing pure joy,” a long-time caregiver recalled at her funeral.
Her cheerful and loving disposition was present even at an early age.
Aniko was born seemingly perfect, with a shock of blond hair and chubby cheeks. But by 18 months of age, Aniko began to show troubling signs of future problems: one day she could feed herself, while the next, she couldn’t; the toddler vocabulary she was building up stopped, and then faded away, word by word; and, she became subject to crying spells, sleeplessness, allergic reactions and seizures.
Doctors made guesses as to what was happening and gave up; one recommended she be put in an institution to give her young parents a break. But Aniko remained at home, and her parents found doctors who treated her symptoms, even if they didn’t know what the cause was.
At 13, Aniko would finally be diagnosed with Rett Syndrome, a neurological disorder, caused by a genetic mutation.
But, despite many handicaps, Aniko had a good and relatively normal life — she attended school, where she was one of the first children in her rural school system to be integrated into a regular classroom.
She grew up as part of a family, with her sister and, then, a brother, even as she fought an increasing lack of mobility and chronic illnesses, including epilepsy, asthma and colitis, which required ever more care and vigilance.
The last period of illness early in 2005 was the worst, moving from kidney failure to pulmonary edema and finally pneumonia — but, after 24-hour care for two months, Aniko recovered, much to everyone’s surprise. And, last May, on a warm sunny day, Aniko was able to go outside again for a walk up the hill to look at the trees, enjoy the wind blowing through the leaves and visit the neighbour’s horses. By June, Aniko was well enough to return to the daycare centre that she had attended for 20 years.
During her life, Aniko had a stable support system, but providing this quality care was costly. It seemed, with good care, that Aniko could live, enjoying her storybooks, folk songs and tasty meals, for many more years.
But on Aug. 6, 2005, Aniko woke up nauseated and wouldn’t eat all day. In the middle of the night, when her mother came in to check on her, she appeared to be breathing with great difficulty. A few minutes later, Aniko took her last breath, as mother held her hands and told her she loved her.
On Aniko’s birthday, Sept. 22, her caregivers, Trudy and Jennie, and her mother, lunched on Aniko’s favourite meal of tuna sandwiches and toasted her with her preferred beverage, de-alcoholized beer.
Now, they visit Aniko where she lies under a weeping birch tree where other late family members, also dearly missed, watch over her. It’s in a cemetery next to the tiny, yellow St. Thomas Church in Rougemont, Que., where lines of apple trees stretch out, seemingly forever, into the distance.
Jane George is Aniko’s mother.
Nice Story Jennifer,
Rett Syndrome isn’t a gift, the disorder that is, but Aniko (the person) wasn’t Rett Syndrome and her family enjoyed the gift of knowing and loving her, and being loved by her, the person that is Aniko.
20 or 30 years ago my wife would have died in our first year of our marriage. Our life together is a gift.
100 years ago my wife and child would have died during childbirth.
Though I don’t think autism is a gift, my autistic child is.
Autism could be a great gift to give someone, if the people who surround that person understood and valued autism.
Autism doesn’t always come with pain. But, if you think that caring for an autistic person is a nightmare under the best conditions then there’s no way autism can be a “gift”.
The West only seems to understand the rat race: run run run and compete compete compete for money money money.
If you can imagine a different set of values, then autism can be a wonderful gift, and I mean “classic autism” with its different view of people, different sensory system and different type of intelligence.
Most of the time it’s the culture that determines whether or not autism is a “gift” or a “curse”.
If you are short, and everyone hates you because you are short and they won’t hire you and won’t feed you when you are little because you are the “runt” and they don’t want to waste good food on you… then being short
(under 5’5″… I just made that up, it’s my rule, if you are under that height, you ought to really think about dying and not wasting our resources… and you really need to get “fixed” and not have children, EVER)
is a curse.
Good thing I’m tall, too bad if you are not.
(disclaimer: this is not what I believe, it’s an example)
http://autismdemonized.blogspot.com/2006/02/destroying-families-overwhelming.html
Excellent.
Pretty wimpy, Kev. Dog, troll, OR just trying to clarify some important points. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, consider yourself lucky.
– Sue M.
A gift? Only in the sense that it is bestowed upon you with no control over what’s inside the package. Like many gifts, I think the first reaction is “What in the world were they thinking about?” However, over time some of those gifts that seemed so crazy suddenly become something useful, something you care about, and sometimes something you can’t live without.
My loved one with ASD is a gift to me, to my family, to my parents, my wife’s parents, and even to his schoolmates. He is still fairly young, so maybe we haven’t hit the bully stage yet, but he has found true friends at his school. Friends that come over for playdates and everything goes okay.
To me, he’s just a little different. Who cares about the movements? Maybe someday I’ll feel different, but for now what I’m more interested in is getting the services we need like OT and PT.
My feeling on this, speaking both as an educational psychologist AND as an autistic person (as well as being the parent of another autistic person, and the ex-hubby of yet another one), is that autism is neither a gift nor a curse. It’s just a part of who each one of us is, and it runs through us like the writing in Blackpool Rock.
Since there are unusual cognitive/constructional processes involved in being autistic, and these processes give rise to different ways of thinking about things, there are situations in which autistic people might be better placed to get novel and interesting understandings of certain topics/events/etc; but those same processes can lead to difficulties in other situations and block our understandings of sertain other things. The handicapping effect represented in autism is determeined in very large part by the value that society places on cognitive and behavioural conformity, rather than anything intrinsic to “autism” itself, such as autism is anything concrete (I do not see it as a disease or illness, since there is no real evidence of that; and when one of the UK’s leading clinical psychologists writes about the “… impeccable logic that is inherent in the disorder …”, one has to accept that the LACK of logic in such a statement may well indicate that autism – however it may be defined – is not a disorder per se).
To me… neither gift, nor curse. Just difference.
Kev,
Speaking of the gang at EoHarm, did you see theHomeopathic advocates post a few days ago.
I analyzed it at my site just now. It is a gem. It is almost as good as that post a while back talking about how modern medicine is too masculne and that the feminine needs to be put back into.
Heck, I am all for it, I just want to know how that individual figured out what masculine and feminine concepts are in relation to medicine. It is it a symbology thing I wonder?
David,
Well said my friend
Jonathan,
I thank you, kind young sir…
… and friend.
David
*double-take*
Is that David P-B I see up there, from AutAdvo?
*waves*
Nice to see you! 🙂
Hello there, that nice girl from Canada 🙂
(waves back….)
Jonathon – I didn’t see it in situ, no but I just read your post (and your Skeptics Circle contribution too!) – excellently debunked as ever.
Hi Kev,
Thanks,
You have to admit, some of the EoHarm posts are gems!
It is almost criminal to not share them with the broader autism community.
Jonathan wrote:
“It is almost criminal to not share them with the broader autism community”.
– Yes, send in the cops! We’re out to destroy the world. Wake up… You know the real crime going on Jonathan, don’t fool yourself.
– Sue M.
What’s your problem, SueM? Can you not stand to be wrong about something? My, my… for such a great education as you claim to have had, you have yet again posted something which has contributed a total of (choose one from the following: bugger all; sod all; f*ck all) to the discussion… except for one thing: we can now see clearly how paranoid you are getting (if what you “defend” here were anything like meritable in nature, you wouldn’t need to try that particular tack with anyone here!).
Jonathan is one of few behaviour analysts I actually like and respect. He is a friendly chap, who listens to counter-arguments carefully and sensitively, and who tries to use his education for its rightful purpose: seeking out a good working model for some phenomenon so that he can find solutions to any problems that crop up within that phenomenon (at least, this is what I get from my interactions with him… both here and elsewhere). He doesn’t need to be told “don’t fool yourself…”; and, before you go any further, don’t even try that tack with me, either… you have in the past, and you have yet to back up your notion that anyone here has been fooled.
Try posting something that has some substance to it. For a change.
Hi Sue,
By “criminal” I mean “a shame” or “unfortunate”. I mean, some of that EoHarm stuff needs no comment to be funny. It speaks for itself. Then again, some of it is just terrifying, that is usually more on the treatment end.
Even though some of the list members do get kind of crazy over at EoHarm. No fear, I harbor no delusions of you or Mr. Schafer being members of a ancient secret society bent on world domination. Although I had this great image of the Geiers in black billowing robes and masks.
You wrote:
“Wake up… You know the real crime going on Jonathan”
That the Seahawks lost to the Steelers in the Superbowl?
Jonathan wrote:
“That the Seahawks lost to the Steelers in the Superbowl”?
– I missed a lot of the superbowl… Were they injecting babies with mercury during halftime?
– Sue M.
Nope,
To be honest I haven’t heard if anyone injecting babies with mercury.
Does this happen Sue?
Jonathan wrote:
“Does this happen Sue”?
– Cute, Jonathan. How much time and energy did you actually devote to your piece about homeopathic treatments and fallacies? Who cares?
– Sue M.
_”How much time and energy did you actually devote to your piece about homeopathic treatments and fallacies? Who cares?”_
You, it seems.
Hi Sue,
the question wasn’t rhetorical or cute. It was pretty serious.
Ethyl mercury is not the same thing as mercury. Although you can argue that it converts to it after a while in the body.
Failure to distinguish this is about on same level as stating that someone is devouring Chlorine, when they are actually eating table salt.
Whether you should use that little bit of sophistry is up to you, but you still can’t magic ethyl mercury into mercury during the point of injection.
The Homoepathy piece took me about 4 hours the
majority of which was spent checking for supporting science and reviewing facts.
You wrote:
“How much time and energy did you actually devote to your piece about homeopathic treatments and fallacies? Who cares?”
(Head spins) Whoa, easy with the topic shifting there…
Those who employ pseudo-science have a long and distinguished history of disregarding criticism. I have no illusion that they will care. That is not why I wrote the piece.
As for my post, I have received thoughtful criticism, which has to do with the fact that I identified Homeopathy as quackery, but that I appeared to not extend this label to EoHarm approved techniques in general.
I haven’t received anything of the like from the EoHarm crew. Dollars to donuts that I won’t either. As you suggested, they won’t care.
Kev wrote:
“You, it seems”.
– Wrong again, Kev 🙂
– Sue M.
Jonathan wrote:
“Failure to distinguish this is about on same level as stating that someone is devouring Chlorine, when they are actually eating table salt”.
– So, are you one of those people who likes to trot out the argument that drinking too much water can kill you? As if comparing the thimerosal issue with drinking too much water is comparable?
By the way, I wouldn’t want you to inject my baby with too much table salt either…
– Sue M.
Hi Sue,
You wrote “By the way, I wouldn’t want you to inject my baby with too much table salt either…”
Sue, are you trying to tell me that dosage is important?
You wrote:
“– So, are you one of those people who likes to trot out the argument that drinking too much water can kill you? As if comparing the thimerosal issue with drinking too much water is comparable?”
I don’t believe I have ever trotted, canted, or galloped that water fact out before.
It is true though; the amount of water, like the amount of mercury affects if we can survive it or not. The fact that it takes a lot less mercury to accomplish this doesn’t’ change the accuracy of the statement. This is a true equation.
A false equation would be to say “The same mass of water
or mercury will kills you.” I would agree that this statement is not comparable.
I don’t want anyone to inject your baby with too much salt either or any mercury for that matter. I am sure that I said have said this before.
Jonathan wrote:
“Sue, are you trying to tell me that dosage is important”?
– I will say this one more time… there is NO “safe” dose of thimerosal (or mercury) to be injected into infants. What’s so hard to understand about that? If you were to say that there is a safe dose… you would need to prove it to me. You can’t.
– Sue M.
_”Wrong again, Kev”_
I don’t think so Sue. I think you care very much. The amount of time you invest on here certainly isn’t indicative of someone who doesn’t care. Rather, its indicative of someone who is listening much more closely than even they realise. Thats OK Sue, its only human to be scared of being wrong.
Hi Sue,
The fact that I can’t prove this to you has more to do with the nature of what science or logic can not do.
Your stament is just as true for water. Then again it is also true for proving goblins exist.
I wish I could say about this fact “I will say it one more time”, but I don’t think it will be.
Kev wrote:
“I don’t think so Sue. I think you care very much”.
– I think that you are confused, Kev. I don’t care about homeopathic treatments and how they are related to fallacies… that’s what I don’t care about. I thought that I was pretty clear about that. The rest of it… of course, I care…
Kev wrote:
“Thats OK Sue, its only human to be scared of being wrong”.
– I’m not scared of being wrong at all. What do I have to be scared about? Asking for studies to be done on thimerosal/autism? Asking for thimerosal to be completely banned from vaccines everywhere? Asking for people to stop the cover-ups? I’m far from scared. The people who should be scared of being wrong are on your side, Kev.
– Sue M.
_”The people who should be scared of being wrong are on your side, Kev.”_
You get awfully defensive awfully quickly for someone who’s not worried Sue ;o) – thats OK, maybe you’ll get some legitimate science to shore up your fears one day. Doubtful, but maybe.
Kev wrote:
“You get awfully defensive awfully quickly for someone who’s not worried Sue ;o)”.
– Do you have a mirror handy? Take a look in it 🙂 .
– Sue M.
Yet another gem from EoHarm:
-Dr. Herman Fundenberg on Dr. Grether,
“The CALIF. epidemiologist is unaware of the literature of the last few years.â€
(EXPLOSION) Damn it Sue, that was an extra strength irony meter too!
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/rainbowkidsshow.html we need a prog like this for the mercury lot 🙂
Jonathan wrote:
“(EXPLOSION) Damn it Sue, that was an extra strength irony meter too”!
– What irony??
– Sue M.
Wait, let me get this straight:
California is where this epidemic of autism is most prevalent, is it not? It’s where all the (most accurate) figures come from, anyway. And an epidemiologist is specifically trained to research diseases – cause, distribution, control.
Yet, somehow, an epidemiologist from California hasn’t been doing her job properly, and is *entirely unaware* of the recent writing that has been done *in her area of expertise*.
Riiiiight…
Hi there Sue,
You wrote:
“What irony??â€
Well there is this is this bit of irony:
Croen, L. A., Grether, J. K., Hoogstrate, H., & Selvin, S. (2002). The
changing prevalence of Autism in California. Journal of Autism
and Developmental Disorders, 32, 207–215.
And this one:
Croen, L. A., & Grether, J. K. (2003). Response: A response to
Blaxill, Baskin, and Spitzer on Croen et al. (2002), “The
changing prevalence of autism in California.†Journal of Autism
and Developmental Disorders, 33, 227–229.
Also this one:
Kaye, J. A., del Melero-Montes, M., & Jick, H. (2001). Mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine and the incidence of autism recorded by general practitioners: A time trend analysis. BritishMedical Journal, 322, 460–463.
This one too:
Jick H, Beach KJ, Kaye JA. Incidence of autism over time.Epidemiology. (2006). Epidemiology, 17(1), 120-121.
Don’t forget this one:
Fombonne, E., Simmons, H., Ford, T., Meltzer, H., Goodman, R. (2001). Prevalence of pervasive developmental disorders in the British national survey of child mental health. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 40, 820-827.
Not to mention this one:
Fombonne, E. (2003). Epidemiological surveys of autism and other pervasive developmental disorders: an update. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. 33, 365-382.
Lest we forget:
Gernsbacher MA, Dawson M, & Goldsmith HH. (2005).Three reasons not to believe in an autism epidemic. Current directions in psychological science, 14 (2), 55-58.
I suppose we should also add:
Honda Shimizu, Y., Rutter, M. (2005). No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, vol 46 (6), 572-579.
And well…here is a few more:
Mandall, D. S., Novak, M. M., Zubritsky, C. D. (2005). Factors associated with age of diagnosis among children with autism spectrum disorders. Pediatrics,Vol 116 (6), 1480-6.
Taylor B, Miller E, Farrington CP, et al. Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine; no epidemiological evidence for a causal association. Lancet, 353, 2026-2029.
Chakrabarti, S., & Fombonne, E. (2001). Pervasive developmental disorders in preschool children. Journal of the American Medical Association, 285,
3093-3099.
Chakrabarti, S., Fombonne, E., (2005). Pervasive developmental disorders in preschool children: confirmation of high prevalence. American Journal of
Psychiatry, 162(6), 1133-1141.
Laidler, J. (2005). US Department of Education data on “autism” are not reliable for tracking autism prevalence. Pediatrics, 116 (1), 120-124.
I took out the Danish studies and the ones from the CDC authors, just cause I knew you would appreciate that!
Sue: I think the point about doseage is that there MUST be some function indicating rate and/or severity of autism as correlated to thimerosal doseage. There has to be.
Now, it could be that that function returns a constant – which is what most people on “my side” claim. That is, thimerosal has nothing to do with autism at all, even if it can cause other problems.
There’s two main other cases worth considering (the case where they’re inversely correlated seems sufficiently absurd all around to ignore, and cases with, say, sineline behaviour seem highly unlikely, since reactions to most chemicals tend to not do that)
The first case is that it’s a step function – it’s zero (or some small constant) below a certain doseage, and some significantly larger rate above that. That would indicate a “safe” doseage, at the point where it goes from very low to higher.
The second case is that it’s an “ordinary” function. Possibly linear, possibly something else – doesn’t matter. Basically, this case says “There’s no safe dose, BUT the more thimerosal, the worse”.
The thing is, Sue … if you talk about “tipping points” or claim that prevalence of autism should be the same in countries with drastically varying rates of thimerosal, then that second case simply can’t be what you’re talking about, which means you’re either saying it’s the step function – which means there HAS to be a safe dose – or that it doesn’t MATTER how much thimerosal there is, so there’s no point worrying about it.
_”Do you have a mirror handy? Take a look in it 🙂 .”_
So your debating ‘skills’ have come down to: ‘No, you are’. The playground must miss your input.
Kev wrote:
“The playground must miss your input”.
– You are an interesting guy, Kev. You and your buddies can make all the jokes, all the links to crying babies, all the insults they want, etc. Someone on “my side” does it and we are the childish ones. It’s truly fascinating to watch. I guess it’s human nature…. protect your own.
– Sue M.