Lupron: An Alternate View

17 Mar

I think it was Prometheus who first used the phrase:

You can’t reason someone out of a belief they haven’t reasoned themselves into.

By which he meant that proponents of the mercury/autism hypothesis were acting out of belief, innuendo and poor science rather than scientifically valid science and that subsequently trying to use reason to dissect their arguments was of limited use.

What I intend to do in the rest of this post is use the tactics, sources and methods commonly used by proponents of the autism/mercury connection to justify their belief systems. before I do I want to assure you that _nothing_ in this post is fabricated.

As we all know, Lupron has been big news recently. The Geiers love it, the mercury/autism crowd are clamouring to use it and the likes of Orac, Kathleen, Autism Diva, Prometheus and myself have all blogged comprehensively against its use.

However, we were using science and reason and as we know, there are people who are impervious to these things. However, when I received a fascinating email from a middle aged American woman who wanted to talk to me about Lupron I read her words with interest. As all proponents of the mercury/autism hypothesis know, anecdotes trump science. With that in mind I read her opening statement.

I am extremely concerned about the use of the drug Lupron being used on autistic children. As a former consumer of this drug, I can tell you firsthand how harmful it is. I understand the desperation people may experience trying to do all they can to heal their conditions, but we must not forget that Lupron is actually chemotherapy, and leaves the same conditions other forms of chemo do on patients. You wouldn’t give chemo to someone who didn’t have cancer, so how Lupron made the jump to all these other patient groups is purely manufactured by Abbott Labs, the parent of TAP who makes Lupron.

Lupron is chemotherapy. Lupron is manufactured by Big Pharma’s TAP – owned by Abbot Labs. A little digging on the Internet turns up lots of bad things about Abbot Labs:

ABBOTT LABS OBESITY DRUG KILLS 32 PEOPLE AND IS PULLED OFF THE MARKET IN ITALY

Source.

Abbott Laboratories, the world’s 12th largest drug company, has been suspended for a minimum of six months from membership in the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI).

Source

If there was ever any reason to squash human beings like a bug, the decision makers at Abbott Labortories have provided a perfect one with their decision to increase the cost of the anti-AIDS drug Norvir by 500% (from $1500 to $7800 per year).

Source.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. My anonymous emailer continued….

Any child already harmed by vaccinations does not deserve a second pharmaceutical insult, which is what Lupron will
do. TAP/Abbott is a filthy company, and thinks nothing about the harm they do to patients. It was just published how 800 people have died from another drug they make.

Pretty convincing stuff, I think you’ll agree. Its obvious that Lupron is manufactured by the same sort of bottom-feeding evil scum Big Pharma types that inject autism-causing thiomersal into healthy babies. My anonymous emailer continued:

It just horrorfied me to read about these kids being encouraged to take this drug. Do you know, there was a National Lupron Victims Network with over 2 million hits that suddenly just disappeared off the net? The data is on Way Back Machine or Archive.org under “lupronvictims.com”. We have Abbott employees who follow us around the internet trying to discredit us. It’s like science fiction.

So I checked it out – the domain ‘lupronvictims.com’ was registered in August of 1999 and is hosted by Forest a Seattle company – the same city that the domain registrant specified. I’ve sent an email to the admin contact at Forest to enquire about why the site vanished in early 2005 but have thus far recieved no reply.

As proponents of the Simpsonwood conspiracy will readily recognise, this reeks of corruption and Big Pharma meddling.

The site is indeed archived on the WayBack Machine but fascinatingly, even though the Way Back Machine continued to archive up until March 2005, one has to go back to late 2003 to find actual archived content. the most complete archive is the first one from 1999.

And still my anonymous emailer had more to say:

Whether this happens to all patients I don’t know, but I do know there are many, many people living in hell from using it. Some of us have contracted terrible deseases from having our immune system compromised, and we all battle many diseases: CFS, Fibromyalgia, EBV, arthritus, severe memory problems, clinical depression, liver problems, high cholesterol, trabecular bone loss creating disc herniation and osteoporosis, etc.

She also mentioned the name ‘Lynne Millican’:

In 1999 I went public in the Boston Herald with my story trying to prevent more poisonings. One person, Lynne Millican, has testified before the senate. We have fought and fought to bring awareness to no avail.

A quick search reveals some impressive sources:

When we first met Lynne Millican in January, when this series on Lupron was launched, we learned that she still suffers a range of serious ailments more than a decade after injections of the drug, Lupron, for treatment of endometriosis. Millican, a registered nurse and paralegal, believes her problems are associated with Lupron. Millican’s numerous symptoms have included the development of a noncancerous tumor, breast cysts, cardiac arrythmias, pain, dizziness, swelling and fatigue. She is one of many women treated for endometriosis who have complained over the years about these and other lingering symptoms they believe are related to Lupron. Other symptoms include depression and confusion, bone pain, vision loss, high blood pressure, and nausea.

Red Flags Weekly

“There are thousands in the United States who say they have been victimized by this drug,” Millican said, emphasizing that symptoms can be severe, such as tremors, seizures and memory loss. “Many women I know say their symptoms didn’t stop when they stopped taking the drug.”

Mercola

Proof indeed. My anonymous emailer closed with the following:

They just got bagged doing the same dirty tricks in England that they were levied the largest fine in US History for doing
here. They have so much money they just pay everyone off. Get the word out. Prevent more poisonings because the FDA does not care.

I think supporters of the thiomeral/autism connection will testify to the truth of that. The FDA are in the pocket of Abbot Labs, Big Pharma Agents of the Apocolypse.

Truly, its stupid to put Lupron into kids. When their bodies start to break down, we can all march on Washington – the placards will read ‘It was the Lupron, stupid’.

No need for science. No need for investigation. As a regualr commenter here says ‘Because its obvious…’

109 Responses to “Lupron: An Alternate View”

  1. anonimouse at 22:47 #

    When a medical journal supports your hypothesis, it’s “peer-reviewed” science and rock solid.

    When a medical journal doesn’t support your hypothesis, the article is “fatally flawed”, the authors have “conflicts of interest” and the journal itself is the tool of drug companies.

    Same thing.

    People have convinced themselves that the Geiers (and their ilk) are right, and whatever treatment they propose or article they write is better than any research that opposes it. Doesn’t matter if that research is peer-reviewed, medically accepted, or infinitely more logical. Because the Geiers (or Handley, or Bradstreet, or Buttar, or Wakefield) say it, it’s far more likely to be true than what a million other scientists or medical professionals say.

  2. ronaldscott at 00:03 #

    I don’t feel like this post strikes the right tone. Perhaps I’m not the brightest guy on the planet, but it confused me, anyways.

    On the one hand you speak out against the use of Lupron as an autism treatment, and on the other hand you hold someone up for public ridicule who actually holds the same opinion you do, but comes to the belief in an alternate manner.

    I dunno–I agree that all that stuff she said is dumb, but do you really need to rip her a new one on your blog, especially when she was writing to support your viewpoint?

    Or am I completely missing the point? Was this letter a fabrication on your part to illustrate your point about junk science regarding the Mercury connection?

    I apologize for being so dense and I mean no disrespect.

  3. Ms. Clark at 01:51 #

    I don’t think that Kev was holding his email correspondent up to ridicule. I think he was holding Abbot labs up to ridicule along with the mercury parents (Erik Nanstiel for example) for playing so fast and loose with their loyalty/antagonism for “big pharma.”

    I have no idea if the law suits against Abbot and the fines levied against them were fair. I’m guessing they were fair and that Abbot (TAP) was acting like the worst of the bottom feeding scum of big pharma.

    I don’t think that everything that every pharmaceutical corporation and every one of their employees does is directly inspired by Beelzebub or the Ku Klux Klan or Osama Bin Laden or people who kick puppies across a room, or the KGB or the Jim Jones of the Jonestown, Guyana … but clearly some of “big pharma”‘s actions are horrifically sleezy.

    The thing is that the Geiers are every bit as sleezy and evil as the worst big pharma bottom feeder ever, same for Buttar and Bradstreet. Some of the rest of the mercury parent’s “authorities” and cheer-leaders are slightly above that level, but not much. David Kirby comes to mind as an example of slime incarnate.

    It’s really awful that people have been harmed by Lupron if they needed to be on it. It’s criminal that the Geiers want to put innocent children on the stuff. Where are the ambulance chasers when you need them?

  4. Jannalou at 02:09 #

    Yeah, I read the post as an attempt to appeal to the mercury parents in the same way they’ve been conned into using Lupron to begin with – by using anecdotal evidence and information anyone can look up if they care enough. No actual science is mentioned here, and that’s what the mercury parents seem to really care about.

  5. Kev at 06:44 #

    It was definitely not meant in a manner disparaging to my anonymous emailer (who definitely does exist – we remain in email conversation). What I wanted to do was use tactics and sources as well as beliefs similar to those espoused by mercury/autism proponents in an effort to highlight the dangers of using Lupron using methods and words they clearly identify with and understand more that they do science.

    I’m highly cynical of any group of people who regularly espouse utter hatred to Big Pharma (Paul Offit has had threats of varying kinds made against him on the EoH boards for example) and yet are content to ignore both the documented effects of Lupron and, using criteria they place more creedence in, anecdotal evidence of serious side effects.

  6. Dr. Curtis E. Flush at 06:47 #

    I don’t think that everything that every pharmaceutical corporation and every one of their employees does is directly inspired by Beelzebub or the Ku Klux Klan or Osama Bin Laden or people who kick puppies across a room, or the KGB or the Jim Jones of the Jonestown, Guyana …

    But they could all be under mind-control by aliens in the early stages of planning a planetary conquest.

  7. Sue M. at 15:41 #

    Ms. Clark wrote:

    ” but clearly some of “big pharma”’s actions are horrifically sleezy”.

    – No doubt. Tragic.

    To be honest, I’m not sure which “side” this post hurts more. Mine or yours?

    -Sue M.

  8. Ms. Clark at 22:06 #

    Sue M,

    I have been suspicious of pharmaceutical companies long before I started to discover the lies of the mercury parents. People who know me for a few years from aut advo may remember my anti-pharmaceutical company rants. I never used terms like “big pharma,” though.

    I am still suspicous of pharmaceutical companies, but then, I’m suspicous of all big business. People who know me, know I’m basically a hippie.

    The point is that just because a pharmaceutical company is involved, it doesn’t mean that children will die or become autistic by their mere presence directly or indirectly.

    I love vaccines. Without pharmaceutical companies we don’t have vaccines.

    I love presecription meds when they are necessary. I avoid them if they aren’t strictly necessary. My ASD kid needs prescription meds. I have Asthma, I’ll do anything to keep my albuterol inhaler when I need to breathe. Big pharma is my friend for making albuterol inhalers. If I had cancer, I’d do like Dr. Clark did, I’d take chemotherapy made by big pharma. Remember Dr. Clark? He didn’t go get chelated for his cancer, he went straight to big pharma drugs, from what I hear.

    So, lets not let “big chem” off the hook, or “big clothing” they enslave thousands of people around the world. Some of those slaves may have made the jeans I’m wearing, who knows? That’s tragic. Big chem is a much more likely suspect in causing autism, IF there is an environmental agent that is increasing autism rates (I doubt it, but there may be a small increase in autism rates over the past 40 years).

    The Geiers are dead meat as far as credibility. Hopefully Sally Bernard, or whoever, will quit paying them to show up at conferences as spread their lies.

  9. Michael Ralston at 04:18 #

    Sue: I’d say it (should) hurt the “side” who are in favor of using chemical castration on children.

    Also, via a heavy dose of quasi-sarcasm, the side that things anecdotes are more important than real data.

    So what side is that? (Not which – neither of the two “sides” has a monopoly on stupid… nor should sides need to be taken.)

  10. Sue M. at 15:47 #

    Ms. Clark wrote:

    “The point is that just because a pharmaceutical company is involved, it doesn’t mean that children will die or become autistic by their mere presence directly or indirectly”.

    – Since you directed your post specifically to me, allow me a moment to comment. You have me mistaken me for someone who believes that all pharmeuceutical companies are evil and are out to do no good… including harming children. What you fail to understand is that this is far from the truth. My daughter survives each day by injecting insulin, supplied to me by a pharmeuceutical company, for her type 1 diabetes. She would have died 4 years ago at 11 months of age without insulin. One of my closest friends is surviving day to day by undergoing chemotherapy treatment for his colon cancer. I am well aware of the good that these companies do by allowing people to live longer lives. That is not my issue here. My issue is with the unsafe vaccinations which were and continue to be injected into babies. Why does that opinion have to correlate to me despising all pharmaceutical companies and all their products? It is clearly a way to divert attention from the main issue. You are very good at that, Ms. Clark. Thankfully, those with common sense can see right through your attacks.

    -Sue M.

    p.s. may I just make one more comment… your previous rude and unnecessary comments about Dr. Clark are in very poor taste. Personally, I would be ashamed if I were you.

  11. Jannalou at 17:12 #

    Unfortunately, Sue, you have allied yourself with people who DO decry “Big Pharma” and seem to wish all pharmaceutical companies to die a painful death. Especially Eli Lilly, which I have to say I am completely against since they make the Strattera I take every morning to help mitigate my ADHD symptoms.

  12. Jannalou at 17:38 #

    Sorry, I just realized my last sentence doesn’t make proper sense.

    I meant that I’m against people who want to shut down Eli Lilly. My reason being that they make my meds.

  13. Joseph at 21:31 #

    Interestingly, I dislike big pharma for the same reasons Jannalou likes them. They make Ritalin and the like, which could very well be carcinogenic, with cardiovascular and psychiatric adverse effects. If I didn’t know better, my son would be taking Ritalin now based on the recommendation of his neurologist. I also hate the way they invent and promote drugs to treat all sort of natural human differences by calling them ‘chemical imbalances’.

  14. clone3g at 21:55 #

    So Sue,
    How do you feel about the use of Lupron to treat autsm? Do you think it’s wise?

    How would you feel is someone decided to use insulin to treat autism even though diabetes doesn’t cause autism?

    How would you feel if a group of people decided that diabetes is caused by chlorofluorocarbon propellants and huge sums of money and time were diverted away from more promising research while the same group called for the removal of propellants from aerosol products?

    You wouldn’t mind right? Everyone knows CFC’s are bad and they should be removed from all products immediately, who cares if diabetes research is set back by 10 or 20 years as long as CFC’s are dealt with now.

  15. Jannalou at 22:34 #

    See, I disagree about the foolishness of using medication for something like ADHD. There are a lot of things about my ADHD that I like, and I definitely want to keep myself as I am. But there are things about it that make my life a lot more difficult than it needs to be, and if medication can help me with those things (either by making them go away or by letting me be able to learn new ways to deal with them), then I will absolutely take it. There is no question for me about the wisdom of taking medication in this instance.

    The question for me, about ADHD meds, is not whether or not they’re safe (especially things like Ritalin, which has been around for longer than I’ve been alive) but whether or not they are being used correctly (ie, for the right reasons).

    Using medication strictly as a way to control someone’s behaviour is exactly the wrong reason, and I don’t agree with that at all. I consider my meds to be a tool, and I hope to one day be able to manage without them. Until that time comes, I will use them to help me learn the strategies I will need in order to live med-free. But I will stay on them as long as I need to, because I’ve been without meds and without the strategies I’m learning now, and I prefer life without anxiety, useless perseveration, stagnation, and poverty.

  16. Sue M. at 01:02 #

    Clone wrote:

    “How do you feel about the use of Lupron to treat autsm? Do you think it’s wise”?

    – I know very little about Lupron. I can’t comment on it.

    Clone wrote:

    “How would you feel is someone decided to use insulin to treat autism even though diabetes doesn’t cause autism”?

    – Your analogy is silly.

    Clone wrote:

    “How would you feel if a group of people decided that diabetes is caused by chlorofluorocarbon propellants and huge sums of money and time were diverted away from more promising research while the same group called for the removal of propellants from aerosol products”?

    – If they had a bunch of evidence to support their claims, then great… research the crap out of it. It would also be great that they called for the removal of propellants from aerosol products. Should I be upset with that? Out of curiosity, are you suggesting (you may not be) that so far “huge sums of money” have been used to to investigate and research thimerosal/autism (other than private funds/studies)?

    – Sue M.

  17. Sue M. at 01:04 #

    Jannalou wrote:

    “The question for me, about ADHD meds, is not whether or not they’re safe…”

    – Interesting?!?!

    – Sue M.

  18. María Luján at 01:08 #

    Hi Jannalou

    You say
    whether or not they are being used correctly (ie, for the right reasons).

    and I would complete

    by doctors prescribing them, based on common sense, careful analysis of the safest and adequate/accurate clinical tests available-in trustable labs- and his/her individual symptoms to give the right diagnosis, considering the short and long term use potential adverse effects and discussing all these facts with the patient/patient´s parents ( if the patient is a child) to let them know the potential risks.

    For me, neither Ritalin/Risperidone nor Lupron are acceptable, as an example, for my child.Neither other things, but I am mentioning only pharmaceutical drugs mentioned here.

    I wonder how many doctors consider all these issues when they prescribe meds/treatments to ASD children, teens and adults?

    María Luján

  19. clone3g at 01:29 #

    First tell me why it’s silly and then I’ll address your second point.

  20. Sue M. at 01:39 #

    Clone wrote:

    “First tell me why it’s silly and then I’ll address your second point”.

    – You can figure it out yourself, Clone.

    – Sue M.

  21. clone3g at 01:46 #

    You can’t play hardball with a wiffleball bat Sue.
    Step up. Why is it silly?

  22. Jannalou at 01:59 #

    Before I take anything, I look up the physicians’ information on drugs.com. This information includes the results of all studies that were done on the drug in question, and it lists every single side effect that anyone experienced while taking the medication. This way, I know what to expect and what to watch out for. I also know what’s common and what isn’t, and if I have some kind of weird reaction I wasn’t expecting, I’ve done the reading to know that I’d damn well better be on the phone right away to discuss alternatives with my doctor.

    I do this because I don’t always react to medication in the standard ways. Medication that “may cause drowsiness” rarely makes me sleepy. Jolt cola (not a medication, but extremely high in caffiene) never made me either wired or sleepy. I have hayfever, and the only allergy medication that works for me is the stuff in Reactine; Claritin literally does nothing for me. Ibuprofen puts me to sleep (not a side-effect that has been noted anywhere that I’ve been able to find).

    So, no, I’m not overly concerned about the safety of the meds I take. I do my research. I am careful enough to satisfy my own criteria for health and safety, and I am probably a lot more careful than most people are, even when they are dealing with their own children. Whenever I go to see my doctor for a prescription renewal or change, I tell him about any side-effects or problems that may be due to the medication I’m taking.

    I am far more concerned about the misuse of drugs to control behaviour, rather than as a tool to help the individual learn to control his/her own behaviour. I am incredibly concerned about the misinformation about, and misuse of, medications such as Zoloft and Risperdal, which have not been tested for use in children but are – all too often – being prescribed as first line of treatment for “problem behaviours”. There is always a reason for a behaviour, and if people would take the time to figure it out properly, there would be a lot less children taking medication that has only been tested for use in adults.

    But I lay the blame for that squarely on the heads of the physicians, who really ought to know better. And I lay it on the heads of the parents, who don’t do proper research before allowing their children to be put on these incredibly dangerous medications. And I lay it on the heads of the “professionals” – often psychologists, psychiatrists (who have less excuse than the GPs), OTs, SLPs, and behaviour analysts – who typically put the idea into the parents’ heads to begin with.

  23. Sue M. at 02:05 #

    Clone wrote:

    “Why is it silly”?

    – You would have to be able to give me some sort of reasoning behind giving insulin to a non-diabetic child? What would the benefit be? Where’s the reasoning behind it? Clearly giving insulin to a non-diabetic child (autistic or NT) would likely kill him/her. Which, I assume, is what you want me to say so that you can then somehow compare that with chelation or Lupron treatment… Right, Clone? No comparison, though… apples to mango trees.

    -Sue M.

  24. clone3g at 02:26 #

    What reasoning is behind giving Lupron to an autistic child? What would be the benefit? Where’s the reasoning behind it?

    What reasoning is behind chelating an autistic child? What would be the benefit? Where’s the reasoning behind it?

    What reasoning is behind giving insulin to an autistic child? What would be the benefit? Where’s the reasoning behind it?

    Some light reading for you: http://www.priory.com/homol/insulin.htm

  25. Ms. Clark at 07:55 #

    _– Since you directed your post specifically to me, allow me a moment to comment. You have me mistaken me for someone who believes that all pharmeuceutical companies are evil and are out to do no good… including harming children._

    You are right. Everything you have written that I have read led me to believe that you are a full blooded big pharma hater. Good for you that you treat your child’s diabetes with insulin and not visits to a shaman.

    Now taking an autistic kid to a DAN! doctor is like taking a kid to a shaman. The Geiers using Lupron is no different than a shaman offering to slaughter a pig or chicken or sheep to cure your child of diabetes. Actually, it’s worse to let the Geiers near a child with a hypo of Lupron.

    I stand by my comment about Dr. Clark. Erik Nanstiel can talk about how bad chemo is and how good chelation is for cancer, but I can’t talk about how one of the big chelation fans skipped Buttar’s coffee enemas and chelation when he got cancer? It’s hypocrisy the whole DAN! and Buttar and chelation mess is hypocrisy and much worse than shamanism as a treatement modality, in my opinion. I’m sorry if I hurt anyone’s feelings by bringing up Dr. Clark and his treatment choices.

    Let’s discuss how long it will be before another child harmed by a DAN! doctor or by the Geier’s and their toxic Lupron Depot injections.

    I keep hoping this abusive quackery will make it into a national TV exposé before another child is killed.

  26. Jannalou at 08:06 #

    Okay, here’s something nobody has mentioned yet.

    DAN! doctors don’t have any special training. Period.

    They go to a conference, they sign up on a piece of paper, and they’re DAN! doctors.

    They don’t have to research anything or take any special courses in holistic medicine or anything.

    I have huge issues with that.

  27. M at 10:36 #

    Jannalou – they don’t even have to be doctors. I know of a UK psychologist (ie, no medical training), who is a ‘DAN Practitioner’ (Ken Aitken for those who like names to be named). Given the highly invasive nature of the DAN protocol this is doubly worrying.

  28. María Luján at 13:51 #

    Hi Jannalou
    Thank you very much for your post. I agree with you in many aspects. Being you an adult I think you approach is the right one about research and knowledge. You decide the level of safety you consider is appropiate. Informed and responsible decission for me is always the point. When I have to decide about my child I am extremely conservative.
    The only point I have in little disagreement is about parents. Many parents must train themselves to research the potential effects in health. and they rest on doctors advice because of concern about the potential risks of not doing something, an approach I also had the first time I hear autism from my neurologist. It is certain that you can educate yourself in the best interest of your child- and many parents do so with a lot of effort- but you must have resources and certain background ( access to english for example, basic knowledge of chemistry, access to Internet) and time. I think also that there are a lot of parents with a strong desire of know better and do this work with a lot of personal effort. I never accepted the idea of Ritalin, Risperidal, Zoloft or any drug for my child, considering his symptoms. I researched for options.
    In some point all the discussion is about different doctor´s advice and how they affect parents decissions. What do you think?
    MAría Luján

  29. EriK Nanstiel at 14:23 #

    Clark wrote: “Now taking an autistic kid to a DAN! doctor is like taking a kid to a shaman. The Geiers using Lupron is no different than a shaman offering to slaughter a pig or chicken or sheep to cure your child of diabetes. Actually, it’s worse to let the Geiers near a child with a hypo of Lupron.

    I stand by my comment about Dr. Clark. Erik Nanstiel can talk about how bad chemo is and how good chelation is for cancer, but I can’t talk about how one of the big chelation fans skipped Buttar’s coffee enemas and chelation when he got cancer? It’s hypocrisy the whole DAN! and Buttar and chelation mess is hypocrisy and much worse than shamanism as a treatement modality, in my opinion. I’m sorry if I hurt anyone’s feelings by bringing up Dr. Clark and his treatment choices.”

    ————-

    Ms. Clark, not only are you clueless, but you’re misquoting me. I never said anything about chelation being used for cancer treatment. (Is it ever? I never heard of it used for that) I DID say that it has a better safety record (in metals removal) than chemotherapy has for treating cancer. If I worded my previous statement a little funny, I apologize… but I shouldn’t be too surprised when your camp misquotes people.

    I’ve nothing new to say about the Lupron protocol because it is still being studied. When the results of my daughter’s participation are known, I’m sure you’ll hear all about it.

  30. Sue M. at 14:57 #

    Clone wrote:

    “What reasoning is behind giving Lupron to an autistic child? What would be the benefit? Where’s the reasoning behind it”?

    – I don’t know enough to speak about Lupron.

    Clone wrote:

    “What reasoning is behind chelating an autistic child? What would be the benefit? Where’s the reasoning behind it”?

    – Removal of heavy metals from the heavy metal poisoned child who may have been misdiagnosed as “autistic”.

    Clone wrote:

    “What reasoning is behind giving insulin to an autistic child? What would be the benefit? Where’s the reasoning behind it”?

    – Keep up the research of it then, Clone. If you think that it would help.

    -Sue M.

  31. Sue M. at 15:00 #

    Ms. Clark wrote:

    “You are right. Everything you have written that I have read led me to believe that you are a full blooded big pharma hater. Good for you that you treat your child’s diabetes with insulin and not visits to a shaman”.

    – Now that we have cleared that up, can you agree that just because someone questions the idea of injecting neurotoxins into babies that does not make them a “full blooded big pharma hater”?

    -Sue M.

  32. clone3g at 17:03 #

    Sue M. I don’t know enough to speak about Lupron.

    You don’t know enough to speak about autism either. You think you know enough to speak about vaccines but you don’t.
    You support pharmaceutical companies and their products as it suits your needs, you claim you don’t have a problem with vaccines, as long as they are safe vaccines, but apparently you are the only one capable of deciding what constitutes a safe vaccine. No thimerosal, we get that, but you openly question the safety of every other ingredient.

    There is no such thing as a “safe vaccine” by your standards which means you are against all vaccines currently on the market. If that isn’t the definition of anti-vaccine I don’t know what is.

    Keep up the research of it then, Clone. If you think that it would help

    What does that even mean?

  33. Jannalou at 17:26 #

    María,

    If I have a child (which doesn’t look likely at the moment), and that child has ADHD, I will do my best to find the most effective and safe medication for him. But I will also work with him to help him learn all those skills I missed when I was small. With the ultimate goal being that he will not require medication, because he will have learned the skills and tools and coping mechanisms that he needs. If that child has autism, I will do my best to help him learn, and I will not turn to medication unless it is absolutely required.

    I do not trust the medical establishment completely, due to reasons I stated in a comment on another post at this blog – it had to do with my digestive system and I won’t repeat the information here. Suffice it to say, I know my body better than the doctors do, and half the time they don’t know what the reason is for anything weird I have going on. Even something as simple as my right ear, which always feels clogged and has a lot of wax buildup – the most I’ve ever gotten in response to a request that a doctor take a look at it is “there’s too much wax, I can’t see anything.” And then they may or may not irrigate my ear. But no referrals to an ENT, which would be nice as I strongly suspect I have a perforated eardrum and the wax buildup is an attempt by my body to keep the eardrum safe from more damage.

    I think people trust their doctors entirely too much. It is important to be aware that most medical research was (and is) done on adult males, so relatively little is known about children and women. I have met far too many “stupid” professionals in my time (and I’m not yet 30) to trust any of them implicitly.

    Heck, I’m a Christian and I don’t even follow my Church with blind faith.

  34. Sue M. at 17:52 #

    Kev –

    The things that you go through to get what I guess you consider “dirt” on people is amazing. It almost makes me gag! Are you feeling the pressure? You should be.

    I stand by each of those posts I made. I have no issues with any of them. The first one is a true story that happened back in October 2004. It was not a coincidence. I found that out via my ex-pediatrician. Also, have you ever looked at my kids medical records (I’m asking because the lengths that you will go through are somewhat shocking)? I have/had every reason to refuse vaccinations for my kids. You wouldn’t know that because you are ignorant to my kids’ medical records (I think). Do you have an issue with me making informed decisions about vaccinating my own children?

    The second post is completely accurate as well. I have described the situation that we are in as the “twilight zone”. It absolutely amazes me that this is still going on today… what kind of a f*up world do we live in where it is still ok to inject babies with a known neurotoxin. No issues with this post at all. Do you have an issue with it? If so, elaborate on those issues.

    As for the third, that’s real mature of you to now post John’s phone number for everyone here to see. That’s not to say they couldn’t have found it anyway by digging around Onibasu but many people don’t have as much extra time as you apparently do, Kev. I have actually spoken with John on one occasion in regards to that e-mail. Some of you will want to make some big huge issue of that but it really wasn’t. Spoke to him for about 10 minutes about the reporter and about his son. That was about it. Unfortunately, due to a death in my family, I couldn’t follow through with that reporter. I have not spoken with him since and if I ran into him around town (it’s a decent size town), I wouldn’t know it. So, I guess now I will ask you… do you have an issue with the fact that I spoke to John on the phone? I can’t imagine why you would? If you don’t, then why would you post a link to a post where he gave his phone number to me. I’m confused.

    What exactly are you trying to get at by posting links to these particular posts by me? There has to be a method behind your madness, so what is it? No, really. Please elaborate on what these posts say about me or why they have some relevance here. I’m trying to figure it out.

    Thanks in advance,
    Sue M.

  35. María Luján at 17:57 #

    Hi Jannalou
    I think we agree, then. I have researched as much as I could to get the medical treatment my son needed for a lot of comorbilities and also to give him all the possibilities to learn and avoid medications. If the child has seizures for example, is clear that you need careful evaluation of medication, including for me the clinical test to search for nutritional/biochemical problems based on scientific research. The same if the child has self -aggresive behavior that can risks his personal safety. I have tried to ask doctors for and to apply the common sense at the best of my knowledge, beyond any doctor´s opinion, and also my own research on my son´s health problems.
    I do not trust blindly any doctor, either.In fact, I question a lot about my son´s health. I always ask and discuss productively with them but also have my own personal research.
    Thank you very much for your answer.
    María Luján

  36. Sue M. at 18:19 #

    Clone wrote:

    “but you openly question the safety of every other ingredient”.

    – You mean like aluminum and formeldahyde, etc? You’re right, I do. Sounds reasonable, doesn’t it? Here’s the thing… most children can probably handle these small amounts of cr*p injected into their bodies… it’s excreted and they get the benefit of the vaccine protection. Then, there are others (including my children) who got sicker and sicker and sicker after each and every vaccine that they had. It’s possible that its just the mercury which screwed everything up for them in the beginning (rhogam’s during pregnance, etc), or it’s possible that it’s a combination of many factors (definately including genetics). Whatever it is/was one factor was vaccinations – for MY children.

    Clone wrote:

    “What does that even mean”?

    – That means that you are free to research insulin as a possible treatment for autism if you would like… go crazy.

    – Sue M.

  37. clone3g at 18:28 #

    Why would you keep vaccinating them if they got sicker and sicker after each and every vaccine? Did you tell your doctor this was going on?

    Hey, I read that something like 50% of autistic kids were exposed to thimerosal in utero via Rhogam. I think it was the Geiers who like to repeat that statistic. Any idea if that’s true or not?

    Anyway, once the vaccine manufacturers come to their senses and consult with you before they introduce a new vaccine, what ingredients would you allow?

  38. Sue M. at 18:56 #

    Clone wrote:

    “Why would you keep vaccinating them if they got sicker and sicker after each and every vaccine? Did you tell your doctor this was going on”?

    – You are a dumb ass, Clone. Here’s a good example of blaming the parent. Here’s a clue… I trusted the system. I trusted that a bunch of intelligent people WOULD NOT inject mercury into my child. Apparently that was too much to ask. Do you know how often this same story is told, Clone. You hear it time and time again. Parents trust their doctors, parents don’t believe that vaccines can do damage to their kids, doctors say that its not the vaccines… as parents we trust because we want what is best for our children. It was not until I received the full medical records of all three of my children that it because as obvious as the nose on my face. Let me offer this out to the group. If there is a certified MD on this list who is interested in seeing the medical records of my 3 children…. I will provide them for you. My stipulation would be that this MD used them confidentially and with the utmost of respect. I would probably have something written up and signed by that MD.

    Clone wrote:

    “Hey, I read that something like 50% of autistic kids were exposed to thimerosal in utero via Rhogam. I think it was the Geiers who like to repeat that statistic. Any idea if that’s true or not”?

    – I do not know specifically about that Clone. I will say that if I was a government agency (CDC or FDA) which was truly interested in answering the question about whether or not thimerosal played a role in autism… I would be suggesting that a study be done by an IMPARTIAL source. Interestingly, I do know that a study was done which basically found no indication of a connection between the two…. of course it needs to be tossed in the trash as it was funded by Johnson and Johnson, the maker of Rho-Gam. WTF? I’m sorry but that is the epitome of a conflict of interest, isn’t it??

    Clone wrote:

    “Anyway, once the vaccine manufacturers come to their senses and consult with you before they introduce a new vaccine, what ingredients would you allow”?

    – I’m fairly confident that I could do a better job than they do in determining the safety of vaccine ingredients. You have to agree, right Clone?

    – Sue M.

  39. clone3g at 19:19 #

    I’m fairly confident that I could do a better job than they do in determining the safety of vaccine ingredients. You have to agree, right Clone?

    No. I don’t have to agree. I think a vaccine made entirely of triple distilled water would be completely ineffective even with a sprinkling of Mother’s intuition.

  40. clone3g at 19:29 #

    Interestingly, I do know that a study was done which basically found no indication of a connection between the two…. of course it needs to be tossed in the trash as it was funded by Johnson and Johnson, the maker of Rho-Gam

    So you are saying that Judith Miles altered the data to show no association because she was bribed by the makers of Rhogam? Serious charges. Have you reported this to the authorities?

  41. McGuffin at 19:33 #

    Fine Sue, you state that you’re “fairly confident” that you could do a better job than [the experts] in “determining the safety of vaccine ingredients”. IF SO, then now’s the time, baby; cite your creds! Post your full C.V; include your degree(s), field(s) of study and schools.

  42. Sue M. at 19:46 #

    Clone wrote:

    “So you are saying that Judith Miles altered the data to show no association because she was bribed by the makers of Rhogam? Serious charges. Have you reported this to the authorities”?

    – Are you suggesting that it is not a conflict of interest for Johnson and Johnson to fund a study to look into thimerosal/autism as it relates to Rhogam? Their product contained thimerosal and they are the defendant in a number of lawsuits in regards to this matter. Is it a conflict of interest or not? All I am saying is get an IMPARTIAL source in there to do the study? Do you have a problem with that?

    – Sue M.

  43. Sue M. at 19:47 #

    Clone wrote:

    “I think a vaccine made entirely of triple distilled water would be completely ineffective even with a sprinkling of Mother’s intuition”.

    – Much, much safer than one preserved with thimerosal though.

    – Sue M.

  44. clone3g at 19:52 #

    Sue Mom’s oral smallpox (safe) vaccine:

    6X: Arsenicum album
    10C: Calendula
    12C: Echinacea angustifolia
    15C: Hepar sulphuris calcareum
    30X:Tarentula cubensis

  45. Sue M. at 19:57 #

    Clone wrote:

    “Sue Mom’s oral smallpox (safe) vaccine”:

    – Hey, dumb ass…. everyone knows that I wouldn’t recommend the smallpox vaccine for infants. Duh!

    – Sue M.

  46. clone3g at 20:07 #

    Sue M. Are you suggesting that it is not a conflict of interest for Johnson and Johnson to fund a study to look into thimerosal/autism as it relates to Rhogam?

    I’m not suggesting anything. You are the one playing the conflict of interest card. I’ve read the full study and I am satisfied that it was done properly and the subjects were real living breathing human beings. I’d like to see a larger study but you would probably disqualify anything that isn’t funded by some cash poor parent organization or group of DAN! litigants.

    The study didn’t reveal a significant association so maybe the numbers were cooked but they would have to boil the demi glace for weeks to make a 50% reduction sauce.

    I also didn’t see an acknowledgment that Johnson & Johnson funded the study. It’s possible, but I’m not inclined to take your word for it. Back it up if you are able.

    Do you really want us to disqualify all research with a potential conflict of interest? We could start with the Vulture twins if you’d like.

  47. clone3g at 20:21 #

    If there is a certified MD on this list who is interested in seeing the medical records of my 3 children…. I will provide them for you.

    Sue, you better upgrade to bigger inbox before throwing an offer like that out there. Prepare for the deluge of offers on your n=3 retrospective study.

    1 out of 3 children injected with TCVs develop diabetes?

    On that subject, where are all of the autistic children with diabetes? If thimerosal causes both, there should be something there right?

  48. Sue M. at 20:22 #

    Clone wrote:

    “You are the one playing the conflict of interest card”.

    – No, I’m just stating a fact that it is a conflict of interest… I’m not playing any card.

    “I also didn’t see an acknowledgment that Johnson & Johnson funded the study. It’s possible, but I’m not inclined to take your word for it. Back it up if you are able”.

    – Where are you getting your information? I would like to see what you are looking at. No acknowledgement that it was funded by Johnson and Johnson? It must be there… As for my info, Evidence of Harm (pg. 469) paperback. “The study was funded by Johnson & Johnson, maker of Rho-Gam brand immune globulin, which used to contain thimerosal. Kirby could be wrong, find out and let me know. Thanks!

    Clone wrote:

    “Do you really want us to disqualify all research with a potential conflict of interest? We could start with the Vulture twins if you’d like”.

    – Clone have you been reading my posts? I believe that the Geiers are telling the truth but I recognize that they have come under some scrutiny. I’m encouraging more studies to be done to validate or negate their studies. I have no issues with that… it’s your side which seems unwilling to open up the data… I can’t imagine why?

    -Sue M.

  49. Sue M. at 20:27 #

    Clone wrote:

    “Sue, you better upgrade to bigger inbox before throwing an offer like that out there. Prepare for the deluge of offers on your n=3 retrospective study”.

    – Clone, not for a study, dumb ass. This would be merely an attempt for a MD to look at my kids records to see the consequences of vaccines on them. What happened within days of receiving vacc’s? Timing of “illnesses”, development of symptoms within days after vaccinations, etc. Nothing more, nothing less.

    -Sue M.

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