Lupron: An Alternate View

17 Mar

I think it was Prometheus who first used the phrase:

You can’t reason someone out of a belief they haven’t reasoned themselves into.

By which he meant that proponents of the mercury/autism hypothesis were acting out of belief, innuendo and poor science rather than scientifically valid science and that subsequently trying to use reason to dissect their arguments was of limited use.

What I intend to do in the rest of this post is use the tactics, sources and methods commonly used by proponents of the autism/mercury connection to justify their belief systems. before I do I want to assure you that _nothing_ in this post is fabricated.

As we all know, Lupron has been big news recently. The Geiers love it, the mercury/autism crowd are clamouring to use it and the likes of Orac, Kathleen, Autism Diva, Prometheus and myself have all blogged comprehensively against its use.

However, we were using science and reason and as we know, there are people who are impervious to these things. However, when I received a fascinating email from a middle aged American woman who wanted to talk to me about Lupron I read her words with interest. As all proponents of the mercury/autism hypothesis know, anecdotes trump science. With that in mind I read her opening statement.

I am extremely concerned about the use of the drug Lupron being used on autistic children. As a former consumer of this drug, I can tell you firsthand how harmful it is. I understand the desperation people may experience trying to do all they can to heal their conditions, but we must not forget that Lupron is actually chemotherapy, and leaves the same conditions other forms of chemo do on patients. You wouldn’t give chemo to someone who didn’t have cancer, so how Lupron made the jump to all these other patient groups is purely manufactured by Abbott Labs, the parent of TAP who makes Lupron.

Lupron is chemotherapy. Lupron is manufactured by Big Pharma’s TAP – owned by Abbot Labs. A little digging on the Internet turns up lots of bad things about Abbot Labs:

ABBOTT LABS OBESITY DRUG KILLS 32 PEOPLE AND IS PULLED OFF THE MARKET IN ITALY

Source.

Abbott Laboratories, the world’s 12th largest drug company, has been suspended for a minimum of six months from membership in the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI).

Source

If there was ever any reason to squash human beings like a bug, the decision makers at Abbott Labortories have provided a perfect one with their decision to increase the cost of the anti-AIDS drug Norvir by 500% (from $1500 to $7800 per year).

Source.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg. My anonymous emailer continued….

Any child already harmed by vaccinations does not deserve a second pharmaceutical insult, which is what Lupron will
do. TAP/Abbott is a filthy company, and thinks nothing about the harm they do to patients. It was just published how 800 people have died from another drug they make.

Pretty convincing stuff, I think you’ll agree. Its obvious that Lupron is manufactured by the same sort of bottom-feeding evil scum Big Pharma types that inject autism-causing thiomersal into healthy babies. My anonymous emailer continued:

It just horrorfied me to read about these kids being encouraged to take this drug. Do you know, there was a National Lupron Victims Network with over 2 million hits that suddenly just disappeared off the net? The data is on Way Back Machine or Archive.org under “lupronvictims.com”. We have Abbott employees who follow us around the internet trying to discredit us. It’s like science fiction.

So I checked it out – the domain ‘lupronvictims.com’ was registered in August of 1999 and is hosted by Forest a Seattle company – the same city that the domain registrant specified. I’ve sent an email to the admin contact at Forest to enquire about why the site vanished in early 2005 but have thus far recieved no reply.

As proponents of the Simpsonwood conspiracy will readily recognise, this reeks of corruption and Big Pharma meddling.

The site is indeed archived on the WayBack Machine but fascinatingly, even though the Way Back Machine continued to archive up until March 2005, one has to go back to late 2003 to find actual archived content. the most complete archive is the first one from 1999.

And still my anonymous emailer had more to say:

Whether this happens to all patients I don’t know, but I do know there are many, many people living in hell from using it. Some of us have contracted terrible deseases from having our immune system compromised, and we all battle many diseases: CFS, Fibromyalgia, EBV, arthritus, severe memory problems, clinical depression, liver problems, high cholesterol, trabecular bone loss creating disc herniation and osteoporosis, etc.

She also mentioned the name ‘Lynne Millican’:

In 1999 I went public in the Boston Herald with my story trying to prevent more poisonings. One person, Lynne Millican, has testified before the senate. We have fought and fought to bring awareness to no avail.

A quick search reveals some impressive sources:

When we first met Lynne Millican in January, when this series on Lupron was launched, we learned that she still suffers a range of serious ailments more than a decade after injections of the drug, Lupron, for treatment of endometriosis. Millican, a registered nurse and paralegal, believes her problems are associated with Lupron. Millican’s numerous symptoms have included the development of a noncancerous tumor, breast cysts, cardiac arrythmias, pain, dizziness, swelling and fatigue. She is one of many women treated for endometriosis who have complained over the years about these and other lingering symptoms they believe are related to Lupron. Other symptoms include depression and confusion, bone pain, vision loss, high blood pressure, and nausea.

Red Flags Weekly

“There are thousands in the United States who say they have been victimized by this drug,” Millican said, emphasizing that symptoms can be severe, such as tremors, seizures and memory loss. “Many women I know say their symptoms didn’t stop when they stopped taking the drug.”

Mercola

Proof indeed. My anonymous emailer closed with the following:

They just got bagged doing the same dirty tricks in England that they were levied the largest fine in US History for doing
here. They have so much money they just pay everyone off. Get the word out. Prevent more poisonings because the FDA does not care.

I think supporters of the thiomeral/autism connection will testify to the truth of that. The FDA are in the pocket of Abbot Labs, Big Pharma Agents of the Apocolypse.

Truly, its stupid to put Lupron into kids. When their bodies start to break down, we can all march on Washington – the placards will read ‘It was the Lupron, stupid’.

No need for science. No need for investigation. As a regualr commenter here says ‘Because its obvious…’

109 Responses to “Lupron: An Alternate View”

  1. Jannalou March 20, 2006 at 20:58 #

    Sue, hon…

    …that’s a study. A ridiculously small sample, of course, but a study nonetheless.

  2. Sue M. March 20, 2006 at 21:01 #

    Jannalou wrote:

    “that’s a study. A ridiculously small sample, of course, but a study nonetheless”.

    – Ok, hon… if you want to call that a study then do so. I wouldn’t. I would call it giving some medical records to a doctor for his/her review. A study? ok, if you insist.

    -Sue M.

  3. Jannalou March 20, 2006 at 21:16 #

    See, a review is a study.

    There’s a reason why the two words are interchangeable in many languages, including English.

    Boggle that one for a while.

  4. Kev March 20, 2006 at 21:39 #

    _”The things that you go through to get what I guess you consider “dirt” on people is amazing. It almost makes me gag! Are you feeling the pressure? You should be…..What exactly are you trying to get at by posting links to these particular posts by me? There has to be a method behind your madness, so what is it? No, really. Please elaborate on what these posts say about me or why they have some relevance here. I’m trying to figure it out.”_

    Remember when you ‘went through’ a few things to get ‘some dirt’ (your words) on me? What was it again? Ah yes, you and JB spent some time indulging the ‘method in your madness’ by searching through the archives on _this_ site trying to catch me out. I remember asking you at the time what you thought those posts you ‘went through’ illustrated about me…why I remember thinking at the time – ‘honestly, this makes me want to gag!’

    Funny how things come back to you isn’t it?

  5. Sue M. March 20, 2006 at 21:44 #

    Jannalou wrote:

    “Boggle that one for a while”.

    – So, I call it a review of medical records and you want to call it a study. Big whoop.

    – Sue M.

  6. Kev March 20, 2006 at 21:47 #

    Oh, I forgot – about John’s phone number. John once crowed mightily when a friend of mine (Orac) had his work address and phone number published on Pat Sullivans blog. He was also instrumental in pursuing Lisa Randall’s phone number and enjoying the fact it got posted on the EoH list where Lisa was harrassed in her home.

    He also recently insulted my daughter by comparing her achievments to those of a trained monkey. I can take a lot and him insulting me is water off a ducks back. However, insult my kids and the gloves come off. And stay off.

  7. Sue M. March 20, 2006 at 21:59 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Funny how things come back to you isn’t it”?

    – In this case, my posts didn’t really seem to shed any light on the present situation. Just “seems” like you must have had some other reasons for posting them? Seemed logical for me to ask you why you posted them? In your case, those were priceless! They were also relevant. You went from believing that your daughter was injured by her DTP to not believing it… with no discussion how you got from point A to point B. Direct quotes from that first post:

    “That changed however when she had her DTP jab”.

    “on the night of her first lot of jabs Megan began projectile vomiting and developed a temperature that peaked at 102 degrees. We phoned for an Ambulance and took her to A and E where they brought her temperature down, then told us they couldn’t find much wrong with her. We were relieved but by the end of that week we knew something was wrong with Megs. She seemed subtely different. There was nothing you could put your finger on as such but the difference was there, she was late walking and was uncomfortable around others”.

    – those quotes from your first post are relevant, Kev. As much as you will try to distance yourself from them now. It gets to the heart of the matter. You “dirt”, not so much. I guess that you have answered my question to a degree, though. This is about you being angry that you were caught you in an uncomfortable position. Now, you are out to find something (anything) to throw back out there. Keep digging you must have plenty of free time.

    – Sue M.

  8. Sue M. March 20, 2006 at 22:02 #

    Kev wrote:

    “However, insult my kids and the gloves come off. And stay off”.

    – Don’t you get it, Kev? This is EXACTLY how those of us who know that our children were injured by vaccines feel. Hurt my kids, the gloves come off and stay off. Get it?

    – Sue M.

  9. Kev March 20, 2006 at 22:15 #

    _”In this case, my posts didn’t really seem to shed any light on the present situation. Just “seems” like you must have had some other reasons for posting them? Seemed logical for me to ask you why you posted them? In your case, those were priceless! They were also relevant. You went from believing that your daughter was injured by her DTP to not believing it… with no discussion how you got from point A to point B. “_

    Certainly nothing I wish to discuss with someone like you Sue. During the time I’ve had this blog, my daughter has been subject to emails telling me I should have her put down and of course John’s little tirades. All stemming from people who believe exactly like you. And your posts are _definitely_ relevant. You protest your role as anti-vaxxer and then lo and behold, up turn some posts that confirm thats exactly what you are.

    _”As much as you will try to distance yourself from them now.”_

    I do? Where do I do that? This is my blog, those are my posts. If I wanted to distance myself from them it would be as easy as clicking a button.

    _”This is about you being angry that you were caught you in an uncomfortable position. Now, you are out to find something (anything) to throw back out there. Keep digging you must have plenty of free time”_

    I hate to burst your ego Sue but I came across yours (and lots of others) posts whilst researchng the blogpost I made today. Finding confirmation of your anti-vaccine stance was merely icing on the cake.

    _”Don’t you get it, Kev? This is EXACTLY how those of us who know that our children were injured by vaccines feel. Hurt my kids, the gloves come off and stay off. Get it?”_

    Right. Except that your opinions are simply that – opinions, unverified by any substance. If I want to illustrate what John has said about my daughter I can point you straight to it.

    And even if you were 100% right, the things John said about my 6 year old daughter were unforgivable and a perfect illustration of both the sort of ‘man’ he is and the sort of values that you and your ilk hold dear.

    To put it another way Sue – it seems you like to dish it out but you don’t seem capable of taking it.

  10. Jannalou March 20, 2006 at 22:39 #

    Sue,

    I wasn’t the one saying that it’s not a study. I don’t much care if you call it a study or a review or a whangdoodle. The fact remains that ‘review’ and ‘study’ mean the same thing.

  11. Sue M. March 20, 2006 at 23:37 #

    Kev wrote:

    “You protest your role as anti-vaxxer and then lo and behold, up turn some posts that confirm thats exactly what you are”.

    – Because I made the conscious decision to stop vaccinating my youngest child after he progressively got more and more sick after each visit to the doctor. Never mind the fact that my oldest two are fully vaccinated. Boy am I a huge anti-vaxxer. You are warped. I’ve pretty much made my opinions of vaccinations pretty clear from the beginning here… nothing has changed. Show me where the discrepancies are between what I have said here and what I said on that original post. Now you and discrepancies, that’s another story… I’ve spelled them out for you above.

    Kev wrote:

    “I hate to burst your ego Sue but I came across yours (and lots of others) posts whilst researchng the blogpost I made today.”

    – You really need to find something better to do with your time, Kev. You have waaaay to much time on your hands.

    Kev wrote:

    “Right. Except that your opinions are simply that – opinions, unverified by any substance”.

    – Wrong, again, Kev. They are verified. You are just choosing not to accept that. Sorry that you are so ignorant.

    Kev wrote:

    “the things John said about my 6 year old daughter were unforgivable and a perfect illustration of both the sort of ‘man’ he is and the sort of values that you and your ilk hold dear”.

    – My values are not John’s, his are not mine. Your values are not Ms. Clarks, hers are not yours, etc. You get the point. If you are so upset with what John said… take it up with him. Leave me out of it. The problem with you, Kev, is that you are so caught up with what John is saying that you are not realizing that he is trying to get you upset… don’t you see it? You are falling for it. Don’t you guys recognize that?

    -Sue M.

  12. clone3g March 21, 2006 at 00:03 #

    Sue M. Because I made the conscious decision to stop vaccinating my youngest child after he progressively got more and more sick after each visit to the doctor. Never mind the fact that my oldest two are fully vaccinated. Boy am I a huge anti-vaxxer.

    Sue, if you were simply a mother who decided to stop vaccinating, a decision for and about your family alone, no one would care because you wouldn’t feel the need to export your opinions. You are on a crusade against vaccines. You are an HUGE anti-vaxxer.

  13. Sue M. March 21, 2006 at 01:07 #

    Clone wrote:

    “You are on a crusade against vaccines”.

    – I guess to a group of “never-met-a-vaccine-we-didn’t like” posters (such as yourself)… It would seem like that. Reality is somewhere in the middle, I would guess.

    -Sue M.

  14. clone3g March 21, 2006 at 01:25 #

    No Sue, not reality.

    Reality devoid of facts is just fantasy.

  15. Sue M. March 21, 2006 at 02:00 #

    Clone wrote:

    “Reality devoid of facts is just fantasy”.

    – Deep thoughts by Clone.

    -Sue M.

  16. Kev March 21, 2006 at 06:09 #

    _“Now you and discrepancies, that’s another story… I’ve spelled them out for you above.”_

    Come off it Sue – I realise I embarrased you by holding up your real views for all to see but try to get back to at least _some_ version of reality. You want to try and paint yourself as someone _not_ vehemntly oppossed to vaccines, then you do, then you don’t again? So which is it? Never mind – I know now.

    As for my er, discrepancies – feel free to infer whatever you like, your opinion is at best, uninformed.

    _”You really need to find something better to do with your time, Kev. You have waaaay to much time on your hands.”_

    lol….yeah, yeah – heard it all before. Ever toted up the time you spend on here, EoH, Onibasu etc etc?

    _”Wrong, again, Kev. They are verified. You are just choosing not to accept that. Sorry that you are so ignorant.”_

    Really? Verified where?

    _”My values are not John’s, his are not mine. Your values are not Ms. Clarks, hers are not yours, etc. You get the point. If you are so upset with what John said… take it up with him.”_

    Oh I do :o) but what the hell – as I say, you like to paint us all as one big homogenous entity when it suits you – y’know as in… _”Don’t you guys get that?.”_

    _”Leave me out of it. The problem with you, Kev, is that you are so caught up with what John is saying that you are not realizing that he is trying to get you upset… don’t you see it? You are falling for it. Don’t you guys recognize that?”_

    So, do I ‘leave you out of it’? Or do I take your advice about John. I guess you know him better than any of us.

    As I said above Sue. You can give it but can’t take it when it comes back.

  17. Sue M. March 21, 2006 at 21:22 #

    Kev,

    You are starting to get so angry all the time… you used to be so much calmer… deep breathes…

    -Sue M.

  18. Kev March 21, 2006 at 23:22 #

    _”You are starting to get so angry all the time… you used to be so much calmer”_

    Angry? No. Bored and irritated? Very much so. Remember saying this?

    _”I keep thinking that someday (hopefully very soon) the truth will be exposed and people will start freaking out about all this.”_

    That was in September 2004. 18 months ago. So far you have now exactly what you had then – nothing. Oh except JB turning up once every few months and telling everyone that ‘the truth’ will be coming in a few _more_ months.

    And on it goes. More autistic kids get treated as guinea pigs and apologists for that behaviour such as yourself carry on hoping that one day something will turn up to justify these actions. Illnesses once almost eradicated such as whooping cough, mumps and measles are once again on the rise because people like you fall back on fear mongering to compensate for a lack of anything even begining to approach what be thought of as evidence.

    Autistic children die from recieving treatments they have no need of. They are Vitman A poisoned as part of a treatment they have no need of and which is adminstered by homeopaths and naturopaths.

    And people like you carry on making excuses. If you’re asking if that makes me angry then my answer is ‘you bet’. If you’re asking if _you_ make me angry then my answer, like I say, is ‘no’. You make me despair for the future and you make me cynical but anger is just too much emotional investment for someone such as yourself.

  19. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 00:02 #

    Kev wrote:

    “That was in September 2004. 18 months ago. So far you have now exactly what you had then – nothing. Oh except JB turning up once every few months and telling everyone that ‘the truth’ will be coming in a few more months”.

    – Well, of course I would disagree with that. Let’s see since that time we’ve had:

    1) The Burbacher study: Aug 2005
    2) Jill James study: Jan 2005
    3) Hornig study: Sept 2004
    4) The very new UC Davis linking thimerosal with disrupting the immune system.

    Of course then there was the Evidence of Harm book which certainly didn’t “prove” anything (that was not its intention) but it did give exposure to the issue.

    – You can see from the quote from me that I didn’t give a time frame. I don’t know when it will become “common knowledge” that injecting mercury into babies was/and still is a stupid idea. At that time, I was hoping that it would be very soon. I still do. So, I wait.

    I would add, I believe that the reason for your growing anger is the fact that the evidence IS growing. You used to be able to laugh these things off. Make fun of the scientists conducting the studies, etc. It is becoming more and more difficult to do that. You may even realize it… So, Kev, continue to cross your fingers that it isn’t true (toes too).

    Peace out-
    Sue M.

  20. clone3g March 22, 2006 at 01:40 #

    S&M: Well, of course I would disagree with that. Let’s see since that time we’ve had:

    1) The Burbacher study: Aug 2005
    2) Jill James study: Jan 2005
    3) Hornig study: Sept 2004
    4) The very new UC Davis linking thimerosal with disrupting the immune system

    Yep. Nothing

  21. Kev March 22, 2006 at 01:42 #

    1) The Burbacher study: Aug 2005
    2) Jill James study: Jan 2005
    3) Hornig study: Sept 2004
    4) The very new UC Davis linking thimerosal with disrupting the immune system.

    And which one of those shows autism is caused by thiomersal?

    Amusingly, earlier today my blog was graced with a vist from Killerjabs who confirmed what the author of the new study (which hasn’t actually been published yet) said which was:

    _”Our findings do not directly implicate thimerosal as a single causative agent for triggering neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism,”_

    Now, Burbacher produced a study of which the conclusion was:

    _”The key findings of the current study are the differences in the disposition kinetics and demethylation rates of thimerosal and MeHg. *Consequently, MeHg is not a suitable reference for risk assessment from exposure to thimerosal derived Hg*. Knowledge of the biotransformation of thimerosal, the chemical identity of the Hg-containing species in the blood and brain, and the neurotoxic potential of intact thimerosal and its various biotransformation products, including ethylmercury are urgently needed to afford a meaningful interpretation of the potential developmental effects of immunization with thimerosal-containing vaccines in newborns and infants. This information is critical if we are to respond to public concerns regarding the safety of childhood immunizations.”_

    So this studies sole concrete conclusion is that you can’t use Meth to asses risk from Eth. The paper then goes on to say further study is necessary. Explain to me how this illustrates thiomersal causes autism.

    Jill James…I’m assuming this is the Glutathione study? If so you might want to read this, but if you’d like a brief recap of the main points:

    _[1] No one has demonstrated that children with autism synthesize less glutathione._

    _[2] No one has found gene mutations or group of polymorphisms that are strongly associated with autism let alone glutathione activity and autism._

    _[3] Altered glutathione redox capacity is not the same as a deficiency._

    _[4] No indication of the type of brains cells and why are they more sensitive to mercury than surrounding cells?_

    All these things need to be explained – particularly point one – before James can be thought of as valid. As of right now she’s started from a false premise.

    And are you really quoting the Hornig mouse study? What did that show? Its fairly obvious that she overdosed her mice. But more importantly than that, what in her paper led you to think that a mouse was in any way comparable to an autistic person? How were the mice diagnosed? What behaviours correlating to the autistic diagnostic criteria did these mice meet?

    Here’s the section from the Hornig paper relating to how these mice were tested:

    _”We assessed open field locomotor, exploratory, and repetitive activities (90-min test, Coulbourn auto-mated chambers) and motor coordination (rotarod, 20 rpm) using tasks appropriate to developmental age and suspected domains of dysfunction at wks 4 and 10. At wks 10–12, *mice were administered a 20-min ‘hole board test’ using a novel 4 Â 4 hole arena* (Coulbourn). At *14–24 wks postnatal, 8-day simple spatial learning trials were performed in SJL mice in nose poke arenas, following food restriction* to 85% of baseline weight and 20-min habituation (trial day 1). Spatial learning consisted of *four 3-min daily trials (north, south, east, or west starting positions) for 6 days, with single baited hole*. A probe trial with south starting position and the same baited hole was conducted on day 8. Nose poke time, time to baited hole, task distance, task errors, and reference memory ratio for south direction on each training day were analyzed.”_

    So they basically tested to see how good the nose poke time was, how quickly the mice discerned the presence of food, how long they had on each task, how many errors occured and how good their memory was. Please let me know where in the diagnostic criteria for autism these items occur.

    _”I would add, I believe that the reason for your growing anger is the fact that the evidence IS growing. You used to be able to laugh these things off.”_

    As I say, if this is your evidence then I’m at a loss to understand how you look at it and come to the conclusion that thiomersal causes autism. I see no growing evidence in any of these papers – please feel free to explain it to me.

    I can laugh off the papers themselves Sue, they’re quite obviously not what you imagine them to be. However, there has to come a point when this utterly disrespectful attitude towards other human beings must stop. At some point you are going to have to face up to the fact that there is nothing to support your beleifs. Meanwhile, as I’ve said, people are mistreated, other people are getting sick from vaccine preventable disease and on it goes.

  22. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 02:00 #

    Kev and Clone,

    Hello… it is more evidence pointing to the need for more research. This will lead to more studies. You don’t have a problem with that, do you?

    Sue M.

  23. Kev March 22, 2006 at 02:12 #

    The sole study from those you listed that warrants that conclusion is Burbacher et al.

    However, you are employing a variety of weasel words. You first said:

    _”…the fact that the evidence IS growing.”_

    And you have previously stated on this blog that it is a forgone conclusion and you only mentioned it for people who may be new to the diea.

    And now you’re saying:

    _”it is more evidence pointing to the need for more research”_

    which is not the same thing at all.

    As far as more research goes I have no problem with further research but only up to a point. There has to come a time when enough is enough and more fruitful areas of research can benefit from funding. As I’ve repeatedly said, the longer this goes on, the longer we have a situation of autistic people recieing unwaranted, unecessary and potentially dangeous treatments and a growing international worry about the results of decreased vaccination rates.

  24. María Luján March 22, 2006 at 02:41 #

    Hi
    I have just found the manuscript of Pessah et al in the web
    http://www.ehponline.org/members/2006/8881/8881.pdf

    MAría Luján

  25. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 14:13 #

    Kev wrote:

    “which is not the same thing at all”.

    – All you need to be concerned with Kev is that the research is pointing to the need for more studies.

    Kev wrote:

    “There has to come a time when enough is enough and more fruitful areas of research can benefit from funding”.

    – Clearly we are not at that point with thimerosal/autism considering each and every study seems to support a possible link (epidemiology aside).

    Kev wrote:

    “As I’ve repeatedly said, the longer this goes on, the longer we have a situation of autistic people recieing unwaranted, unecessary and potentially dangeous treatments and a growing international worry about the results of decreased vaccination rates”.

    – The truth will set you free…. if the truth is told, healing can begin.

    Sue M.

  26. Kev March 22, 2006 at 14:29 #

    _”All you need to be concerned with Kev is that the research is pointing to the need for more studies.”_

    Is that how you rationalise your beliefs? More research? No problem.

    However, there are greater concerns, like it or not. Vaccine uptake is on the wane. diseases once thought just about eradicated are rising again. Autistic people are being treated with unnecessary treatments with no justification. Don’t you think it might be just a little more responsible to wait for these ‘more studies’ before giving a child something like chelation or Lupron?

    What am I asking? Of course you don’t.

    At some point Sue, you _are_ going to have to take a long hard dispassionate look at the accumulation of evidence pointing to thiomersal playing a causative role in respect to autism. You can keep hanging out for more studies year after year but the fact remains – no study even _points_ towards the possibility that thiomersal might cause autism.

    When do you give it up? I’m curious – what piece of evidence would it take to change your mind?

    _”Clearly we are not at that point with thimerosal/autism considering each and every study seems to support a possible link (epidemiology aside)”_

    It does? Which studies? Why do you even bother saying it when you know I’ll ask and we both know you have no answer? Can you answer my points about the Burbacher/James/Hornig studies? Do you have the ability to see why they just might not be the ‘smoking gun’ that you think they are?

    _”The truth will set you free…. if the truth is told, healing can begin.”_

    Sorry thats not quite vague and meaningless enough for me. Could you try to make less of a point?

  27. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 14:49 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Vaccine uptake is on the wane”.

    – If that’s so, who’s fault is it? Mine and those like me or the people who have not been able to answer some basic questions about vaccine safety?

    Kev wrote:

    “Autistic people are being treated with unnecessary treatments with no justification”.

    – What’s your opinion of the prescribed meds that are now routinely given to autistic kids and children with ADD/ADHD? Are you concerned about the possible long term effects of these?

    Kev wrote:

    “no study even points towards the possibility that thiomersal might cause autism”.

    – Not only are you becoming more angry as the days pass, you are also becoming less willing to acknowledge the possibility. You used to be able to be a bit more rational in your thoughts. No more, I guess. So embittered.

    Kev wrote:

    “When do you give it up? I’m curious – what piece of evidence would it take to change your mind”?

    – Try any. So far, I don’t have anything to go on from your side that holds up to scrutiny. So get some and we can discuss it. How about you?

    Kev wrote:

    ” Do you have the ability to see why they just might not be the ‘smoking gun’ that you think they are”?

    – Each of them separately are pieces of the puzzle, Kev. Yes, other factors involved (genetics, etc). They all leave the door open for more research. Sorry that this bothers you. Clearly we could go around and around all day about this… fortunately, I’m too busy for that.

    Sue M.

  28. Kev March 22, 2006 at 16:22 #

    _”If that’s so, who’s fault is it? Mine and those like me or the people who have not been able to answer some basic questions about vaccine safety?”_

    Yours and people like you who tear around parenting forums creating massive flame wars in vaccine related threads. What basic questions have not been answered?

    _”What’s your opinion of the prescribed meds that are now routinely given to autistic kids and children with ADD/ADHD? Are you concerned about the possible long term effects of these?”_

    Funnily enough I’m researching a piece on that right now. My opinion of such medication is not high.

    _”Not only are you becoming more angry as the days pass, you are also becoming less willing to acknowledge the possibility. You used to be able to be a bit more rational in your thoughts. No more, I guess. So embittered.”_

    Of course its a possibility. Its also a possibility that space aliens invaded and caused autism. Its also a possibility that ice cream causes autism. Its also a possibility that the sun rising causes autism. If you want to talk about nebulous possibilities then good luck. What I’m suggesting to you is that there is a massive difference between possibility and liklehood. Thus far, there is nothing that can account for so much about autism in the thiomersal theory.

    _”Try any. So far, I don’t have anything to go on from your side that holds up to scrutiny. So get some and we can discuss it. How about you?”_

    I’d be happy to – what do you want? Refutation of the ‘novel form of mercury poisoning’ paper? Refutation of the idea of there being an epidemic?

    _”Each of them separately are pieces of the puzzle, Kev.”_

    Twaddle. One of them says that ethyl mercury cannot reliably be used to measure methyl mercury. One of them proceeds from the false premise that autistic kids cannot deal with glutathione and one of them thinks that autism can be diagnosed in mice by using a test designed to see if they can remember how to sniff and eat. What ‘pieces’ are covered here? Burbacher et al is about the best of these papers and that really says next to nothing about what thiomersal _does_ only what methyl _doesn’t_ do.

    _”They all leave the door open for more research.”_

    What further research can be extracted from the Hornig paper Sue? Let me know what in that paper leads you to believe that further research is justified and also tell me what form that research should take.

  29. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 17:59 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Of course its a possibility. Its also a possibility that space aliens invaded and caused autism. Its also a possibility that ice cream causes autism. Its also a possibility that the sun rising causes autism”.

    – More proof that you are unwilling to acknowledge the possibility. This makes you irrational.

    Sue M.

  30. Kev March 22, 2006 at 19:18 #

    _”Of course its a possibility.”_

    _”More proof that you are unwilling to acknowledge the possibility”_

    Er, right.

  31. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 19:29 #

    Maybe you didn’t get my point. By offering up such silly ideas ie. space aliens, ice cream, or the sun rising causing autism, you SEEM to be saying that the thimerosal/autism connection is equally as silly. Was that your intention OR do you see why the thimerosal/autism connection may have a bit more plausibility to it?

    Sue M.

  32. Kev March 22, 2006 at 20:27 #

    Maybe you didn’t get *my* point.

    You may well be right – one day it may be proven beyond any doubt that thiomersal causes autism. Equally it may one day be proven that eating ice cream causes autism. You know I rest my opinion on scientific foundations – there is as much reason to support the idea that eating ice cream causes autism as the idea that thiomersal causes autism. If you disagree wiht me you need to address my points abuot the studies you listed. You also need to show me all the safety trials that have been conducted on ice cream ruling out a link to autism. Prove to me it doesn’t cause autism. Thats the standard of logic yourside frequently repeats on here.

    I can see why people _think_ that the idea of thiomersal cuasing autism has more validity. When one doesn’t look past the hype its easy to get steered wrong. Lets take the CDDS quarterly reports for example. Every quarter Rollens trumpets his opinion that the autism rate is falling. He does this by looking at all cases of autism in the CDDS. On the face of it, convincing evidence that he’s right. This gets sent out to a whole host of media outlets and reported as gospel.

    Except….when you actually look at the figures and hear about the limitations of the data its not quite so obvious. The data doesn’t account for new cases at all. Rollens collates *all* autism reported to CDDS – it should really only be 3 – 5 year olds. He is grossly misrepresenting the case. And in fact even he is 100% right (which he is not) the figures only show a slow down in the rate of increase – they do not show a decrease. The rate is still increasing overall. And in _further_ point of fact, when one looks at and isolates the CDDS figures for 3 – 5 year olds, the rate is still climbing in this key cohort.

    None of this ever gets into the media.

    You’ve got to look past surface appearances Sue.

  33. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 21:12 #

    Whatever you say, Kev…

    Sue M.

  34. clone3g March 22, 2006 at 21:32 #

    Let’s have a little more research on the Ice cream connection, eh Sue? Why not? There’s plenty of individual clues, each of them separately are pieces of the puzzle but taken together they all leave the door open for more research.

    Here’s the scoop on your brain freeze,
    Neurons in vitro will shrivel up and die if exposed to Ice Cream (I have video)

    SJL/J mice will act autistic and chew through a cardboard container to get to more Ice Cream if you inject them with it or simply give it to them in their feed.

    Ice Cream is made from Cow’s Milk, Casein? Mad Cow? Glutathione? Hello???

    Ice Cream causes dendritic cells to go haywire, so does cow’s milk.

    Thousands of kids have become autistic shortly after their first taste of Hagen Daas. I’ve seen kids have meltdowns and tantrums in front of Carvel!

    Ice Cream contains propylene glycol. Antifreeze! I suppose you think it’s OK to keep giving children anti-freeze Sue? Well? Anti-freeze? Hello??

    I could keep dishing here if you’d like but I think this gives you a taste of the rocky road we all face here. I’m going to go place an order for a pint of Buttar Pecan and if you don’t do the same you are a child abuser.

  35. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 21:39 #

    ——————————————————————————–

    MEDIA ADVISORY

    –VACCINES, MERCURY AND AUTISM–

    MAJOR BRIEFING ON SIGNIFICANT NEW DEVELOPMENTS IN THE ONGOING CONTROVERSTY-

    WHAT: A panel briefing on the growing evidence of a link between mercury, vaccines and autism, and important new developments on Capitol Hill, in major universities and within the mainstream media.

    WHO: Dan Olmsted, journalist for UPI who writes the regular column, “The Age of Autism.” Mr. Olmsted will discuss his recent reporting on unvaccinated populations – including Amish children in Pennsylvania and patients at a holistic medical practice outside Chicago – as well as other investigations into early cases of autism, and reports of improvements after medical treatments.

    David Kirby, author of the book “Evidence of Harm – Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic.” Mr. Kirby will discuss newly published science from major US universities that support the mercury-autism link, media reports of recent declines in new autism numbers, and newly leaked IOM transcripts that would indicate undue pressure by the CDC over IOM vaccine committee members to reject the thimerosal-autism hypothesis.

    Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY), who will unveil a bill to provide for a new study of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations of American children. Data from this relatively simple study could settle once and for all the question of a link between vaccines and autism, ADD, ADHD and other disorders. Rep. Maloney will also discuss the Federal bill to ban thimerosal in vaccines, which she co-sponsors with Rep. Dave Weldon (R-FL), and a possible Congressional move to empanel a new committee of the Institute of Medicine that would consider new evidence to support the link.

    Katie Wright, daughter of NBC/Universal President Bob Wright and Suzanne Wright, founders of the new autism research charity “Autism Speaks.” Ms. Wright will talk about her son’s autism diagnosis, her belief that thimerosal contributed to his illness, and recent progress he has made using state-of-the-art biomedical interventions. Ms. Wright will also discuss her dismay at the American Academy of Pediatrics, which does not publicly support the Combating Autism Act of 2005, reportedly because the bill earmarks money for research into vaccine preservatives.

    WHEN: Thursday, March 30th. Breakfast at 8:30am, briefing from 9:00-10:00am.

    WHERE: National Press Club, 529 14th St. NW, 13th Floor, Washington, DC.

    CONTACTS: Olmsted: 202-302-3753; dolmsted@upi.com

    Kirby: 718-230-4250; dkirby@nyc.rr.com

    Maloney: Afshin Mohamadi, 202-225-7944

    *It’s not the ice cream, Clone, it’s the THIMEROSAL, Duh!*

  36. Kev March 22, 2006 at 21:59 #

    Two journalists, a politician and a media pundit.

    That should be some interesting ‘science’.

    _”Whatever you say, Kev…”_

    I’m waiting to hear whatever _you_ say Sue. I’ve asked you a lot of questions. At least have a stab at answering them. Or maybe you take exception to my exmaple of the CDDS data? What are your objections to that?

    Or, to put it another way – do you ever have an original thought that _didn’t_ originate from a hack with a publishing career to maintain or a politician with votes to win?

  37. clone3g March 22, 2006 at 22:02 #

    OH MY GAWD! THIS IS SOOO AWESOME SUE!
    Finally, the truth will be revealed, and in Washington DC no less! This is that big breakthrough you’ve been telling us about right? Will Ben & Jerry be there?

    Sue M. again says: Duh!

    Quite the vocab but I think you meant to say Baaaaaa
    Just another sheep in wolf’s clothing now get the flock out of here.

  38. Sue M. March 22, 2006 at 22:20 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Two journalists, a politician and a media pundit”.

    – The big news in this is Katie Wright. Because of your ignorance you may not know that.

    http://www.autismspeaks.org/founders.php

    Kev wrote:

    “I’ve asked you a lot of questions”.

    – You have also been a complete ass as of late, Kev. So, I’m sorry if I won’t set myself up to be tormented by your angry tirades. It is not worth it for me to even attempt to answer any of your questions… It will IMMEDIATELY be met with scorn. Why should I try? You are actually beginning to get worse than Clone (not easy).

    Clone wrote:

    “Finally, the truth will be revealed, and in Washington DC no less! This is that big breakthrough you’ve been telling us about right?”

    – No this is great but it’s probably not the big breakthrough… the big breakthrough will come when the “health officials” finally realize that they are f*cked and they decide to tell the truth… that will be BIG!

    Sue M.

  39. Ruth March 22, 2006 at 23:33 #

    Actually my child is autistic because my mother wished I would someday have a kid just like I was. I slept very little, had little interest in other kids, was lousy at sports.
    Saw a paper today on the imprinting of maternal and paternal genes in autism-I’ll look for the reference. IT’S GENETIC, DUH!

  40. clone3g March 23, 2006 at 02:22 #

    Sue M. Said: You have also been a complete ass as of late, Kev. So, I’m sorry if I won’t set myself up to be tormented by your angry tirades. It is not worth it for me to even attempt to answer any of your questions…

    Well as long as you’ll have all of that free time on your hands now Sue, try this experiment:

    Walk in to a person’s home or place of business, maybe a convenience store, walk up to the owner and punch him in the face. When he responds with anything less than complete kindness and respect, you can act surprised and storm off in a huff.

  41. Dave Seidel March 23, 2006 at 02:39 #

    As just posted on EOHarm:

    *****

    Contact: Rubenstein Communications
    Susan Arons
    Office: (212) 843-8033

    Statement by Katie Wright

    “Earlier today a media advisory was circulated indicating that I would appear on a panel at the National Press Club on March 30. While I am unable to be present at that media briefing, I support the work of Autism Speaks and the need for more research funding investigating all theories surrounding the potential causes of autism, including further study of mercury and thimerosal.”

    No further comment will be made.

    *****

    Hmm, maybe not so big news, Sue.

  42. Kev March 23, 2006 at 07:23 #

    _”It will IMMEDIATELY be met with scorn”_

    Who was it who used to advise people to ‘go cry about it’ when they protested about you being sconrful? Ah yes, that was you wasn’t it?

    Here’s the deal Sue – if you act respectful, you get treated with respect. If you don’t I can’t be bothered trying to be respectful back.

  43. Sue M. March 23, 2006 at 14:29 #

    Dave wrote:

    “Hmm, maybe not so big news, Sue”.

    – Well, admittedly a bummer that she will not be speaking. She probably got a nastigram from someone like your wife which scared her away. Either way, we’re getting there. Keep lurking….

    Sue M.

  44. Sue M. March 23, 2006 at 14:34 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Who was it who used to advise people to ‘go cry about it’ when they protested about you being sconrful? Ah yes, that was you wasn’t it”?

    – Yeah, I’m sure that I did say that. I’m not going to search around as to why but I’m sure it was warranted. You asked why I wasn’t answering your questions and I told you … because of late you’ve been acting like an ass.

    Sue M.

  45. Kev March 23, 2006 at 14:58 #

    _Yeah, I’m sure that I did say that. I’m not going to search around as to why but I’m sure it was warranted.”_

    Course it was Sue. Double standards are becoming your stock in trade :o)

    _”You asked why I wasn’t answering your questions and I told you … because of late you’ve been acting like an ass.”_

    Right. Or, because you have no answer. Thats fine, I understand its easier to find a reason to back away as per usual.

    Here’s an easier one for you – why is it significant that another organisation have got into bed with Kirby and Olmsted? Could it be because of her media contacts?

  46. Sue M. March 23, 2006 at 19:39 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Here’s an easier one for you – why is it significant that another organisation have got into bed with Kirby and Olmsted? Could it be because of her media contacts”?

    – No, not because of her media contacts. Due to the fact that you live in another country, let me review why I believe that it was a big deal that Katie Wright was going to speak on the topic of thimerosal/autism. It seems like it’s somewhat irrelevant at this point since she won’t be speaking but deserves some comment anyway. As of the beginning of this year (2006) two organizations NAAR and Autism Speaks (founded by Katie’s parents of behalf of her son) merged to form one big Autism organization. Up until then, NAAR had been less than cordial to the biomed treatment route and were quite vocal about their disbelief of the thimerosal/autism connection. Examples of this viewpoint would be the fact that they were endorsed or linked to by the CDC website (speaks for itself) and I also know that when Kirby was on a television show over here the dissenting view was from the director of NAAR who went with the old standard the “evidence” is clear that there is no link, yada, yada, yada… NAAR is/was a big organization with a bunch of power behind it (raise a bunch of money, etc). So, now only about 2 months after the merger…. we have Katie Wright coming out with the fact that she has been treating her son biomedically AND at least it “seems” (although not completely clear) that she believes that thimerosal MAY have contributed to her sons autism. Minimally, she endorses more research into this area. That’s big, Kev. Would you agree that that would be a bigger deal than let’s say A-CHAMP or SAFEMINDS going on record at the media briefing? Again, it’s not happening at this point… dissapointing to me but it is what it is. I respect her either way. It can’t be easy on her.

    Sue M.

  47. clone3g March 23, 2006 at 20:24 #

    Most of the major autism research organizations have been infiltrated by mercury parents and that’s cause for celebration? You’ll still maintain there isn’t enough research money going toward thimerosal-autism research and other autism research hasn’t been hijacked and derailed?

    Small wonder so many mediocre scientists are willing to churn out less than mediocre research for mercury and autism. Not because it’s a promising avenue, because mercury parents with little or no science background are now reviewing research proposals. $$$$$

    Wonderful. Congratulations.

  48. Sue M. March 23, 2006 at 22:26 #

    Clone wrote:

    ” Not because it’s a promising avenue, because mercury parents with little or no science background are now reviewing research proposals. $$$$$”.

    – Right. I forgot all the mercury parents with all their money are able to buy everyone off… Sure, Clone. It’s time to come up with something new. The ice cream hypothesis is more promising than that theory.

    Sue M.

  49. Kev March 24, 2006 at 14:18 #

    Sorry Sue. I get why there’s a lot of people who would find the idea on AutismSpeaks being affiliated with them as big news but I prefer quality to quantity.

    Does the underlying science alter because Katie Wright chelates her kids? Nope.

    Does your sides ability to raise their media profile increase? Yes – well, it would’ve done if she’d gone ahead and done it. Wonder why she changed her mind?

    Scientific legitimacy is gained by affiliation with respected scientists. Not media pundits daughters or alleged advocacy groups.

  50. Sue M. March 24, 2006 at 16:14 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Scientific legitimacy is gained by affiliation with respected scientists”.

    You mean like the respected scientists who claim that it is safe to inject babies with thimerosal? Or those respected Danish epidemiology studies?

    Sue M.

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