For the last few weeks the subject of ire on the EoH maillist has been Autism Speaks, they’ve been the subject of some very nasty descriptions indeed. The reason is that the EoHers knew that Katie Wright, daughter of the owners of Autism Speaks, was taking her son Christian to a DAN! doctor and yet Autism Speaks were keeping this quiet.
Well, as blogged by David Kirby, Katie Wright has now confirmed that Christian is seeing a DAN! doctor (lets hope its not one of the paedophiles or Scientologists) and has gone ‘on the record’ as stating she believes vaccines caused Christians autism.
The mercury militia and David Kirby report this:
Many in the upper echelons of Autism Speaks have rejected any environmental hypothesis and insisted that autism is purely a genetic disorder — though Bob and Suzanne Wright (and the organization itself) remain officially neutral on this crucial question.
But now, Christian is getting better, and that wonderful news could change everything.
Well, firstly, I can’t recall anyone from Autism Speaks insisting that autism is purely a genetic disorder. If they did I think they’d be just about alone. Secondly, ‘Chrisitan is getting better’. Really? How is that described exactly?
“He’s definitely getting better,” Katie told me by phone. “He was a very sick kid, with an extended gut and inflamed intestines. We couldn’t do anything until we got that under control.” But once Christian started to improve physically, she said, he also began to get better emotionally, mentally and cognitively.
When Christian’s gut improved, his parents began trying other, still-unproven treatments like dietary changes (no wheat or dairy) chelation therapy (removal of heavy metals from the body) and methyl B-12, which could help restore a critical process called methylation – a needed tool for detoxification and proper nerve function that is apparently deficient in some autistic children.
“Christian is speaking now, though only when prompted,” Katie told me. “His eye contact is returning, and his crying and tantrums have subsided.” And she said, “His ability to attend has returned. Now he can sit and do his lessons and learn, whereas before he would just lie down and scream in pain, because his abdomen hurt so much. But he still has a long way to go.”
Perhaps most heartening to Katie is that Christian can now tolerate being in close contact with his brother, something that used to send the boy into screaming fits of anxiety.
Well I too am glad that Christian doesn’t have these gut problems anymore. But these aren’t autism and have nothing to do with autism. My daughter, who is also autistic, has never had an ‘extended gut and inflamed inststines’. Thats not to downplay Christian’s problems but its simply not realistic to equate these things with autism.
Christian (who is 5 and yet described by Kirby as a ‘toddler’) displays very similar behaviours to Meg at five (and at three) – she didn’t speak at all, she struggled with eye contact and she had big meltdowns. The thing she has in common with Christian is that their changes have occurred as they have grown older.
Kirby goes on to say:
So how will some Autism Speaks officials react to Katie’s statements? They could fall back on two recent, but highly inconclusive studies that support the autism-is-genetic paradigm, and continue to reject the environmental hypothesis. But I wouldn’t bet on it.
I’m unsure exactly what two recent genetic studies Kirby is talking about as he doesn’t name them but if they are written by decent scientists then I highly doubt they have written an off-the-cuff rejection of an environmental aspect to autism. If anyone does know what studies Kirby is referring to please say so I can check for myself. I find double checking Kirby’s words often reveals interesting things!
But hsi question is a good one. How _will_ Autism Speaks react? They are a ‘house divided’. They have the scientific teams that they inherited from NAAR and they have their ‘in house’ members that are media people. Will they go for the media or for the science? It seems that Kirby and the mercury militia are in no doubt about which way they _should_ go – they want a media driven Autism Speaks. An organisation that abandons science for woo.
It should be noted that the mercury militia are very, very good at media manipulation. From Brad Handley’s full page ads to Katie Wrights levering of Kevin Barry to get onboard Autism Speaks and of course, David Kirby’s fact free and often hilarious debating points. These are not people who let a media chance go unexplored. However, they cannot force science to show something that it does not.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Our youngest child just turned 6, he is also beginning to improve in the areas of speech, eye contact, and attention.
Amazing how this is all happening without any biomedical interventions at all!
I do not subscribe to the thimerosal causes autism theory because there is a solid consensus of world scientific opinion which states that there is no evidence to support the theory. It would be of benefit to persons with autism disorder though if both the Kirby camp and the Neurodiversity camp would refrain from the childish taunting back and forth and let science and research explore causality issues in autism.
Just wait a minute here. Katie took her child to Krigsman, according to EoH. He’s a big GI/MMR doc. And according to Katie, he’s the doctor who really turned Christian around. Then, it’s MMR that’s the problem for Christian? Not mercury? So why does David Kirby feel vindicated in any way by this?
Moreover, if Christian is 5, then he was born in 2001 or 2002. At that time, statistically speaking, he had about a 5.6% or less chance of receiving a thimerosal containing vaccine. A review of his immunization records should make it clear whether or not there was ANY chance of him receiving mercury in his shots. I’m betting, based on very good odds, that he didn’t receive any.
I am struck by how she speaks of his eye contact & attention as “returning”… from where? Young children are not particularly known for their ability to attend to things. Sounds to me that Christian is learning these things at his own pace. The “returning” thing is very hype-y & make me wonder what she was expecting from her child, behaviour-wise, in the first place.
I’d like to know how many kids Krigsman has seen that DIDN’T have “gut issues”. If it’s like the other quacks in the mercury circle of doom, I’d say it’s probably very few.
_”It would be of benefit to persons with autism disorder though if both the Kirby camp and the Neurodiversity camp would refrain from the childish taunting back and forth and let science and research explore causality issues in autism.”_
Harold, do shut up you pompous idiot. How exactly does Neurodiversity stop or hinder science and research explore causality?
Here’s the last scentence from my post:
_”However, they cannot force science to show something that it does not.”_
That works all ways. And if you want to call someone on being childish then take a look in a mirror just before you write another piece stuffed full of lies about how ‘the neurodiverse’ don’t want to treat autistic kids and deny the existence of ‘severe’ autistic people.
If this debate is so abhorrent to you – feel free to stay away.
I hate to be a bastard – ok, I LIKE to be a bastard – but I have to ask this question.
How much of the “gut” problems in autistic children stem from real disease and how much of them are either imagined/wildly overstated by parents or caused in part by a autistic child stressed by his parents overreaction and pressure? I don’t really want to be the jerk here, but a lot of these so-called “severe gut” problems don’t seem that far removed the general variability of human digestive processes.
According to the book “Zebras don’t get ulcers” which is all about the effect of stress, including social stressors… stress causes all the same gut symptoms that the biomed parents complain their kids have.
But I think that some of it is also that they may be more prone to having problems digesting some sugars, dissaccarides (like Fructose) and the common Lactose intolerance.
I think that the kids may be less able to communicate the pain from these common problems, and that on top of the stress is what’s causing most of the “gut” issues in autism. Not MMR and not leaky gut.
And autistic kids are not stoned out of their minds on opiods from undigested wheat and dairy, you can see that Krigsman isn’t even telling these parents that their kids are obviously getting their hands on some contraband cookies and cheese (because all autism is is leaky guts). He’s just trying to calm down inflammation, when he finds it, with heavy duty drugs, from what I have read that he’s giving the kids.
One other complication could be that some of the kids have genetic disorders (for instance Amanda Baggs has gut problems related to a genetic disorder – she was born with it, it didn’t come from the MMR shot). If 10% of autistic kids have some kind of genetic disorder than can affect the gut (apart from stress) then that should be investigated so that the kids can get treatment that actually addresses the underlying cause.
But in Christian’s case, mommy and gramma (of the over-large cranium) KNOW that it was those dratted vaccines that made Christian’s belly get bloated, not lactose intolerance or something simple like stress from hour upon hour of ABA therapy (which conceivably could have been running concurrently with the gut problems).
Bring paregoric back and let’s see how quickly all those childhood GI problems resolve.
You’ve really distinguished yourself this time Kev. The level of your comments to me are no more mature than your silly remarks in your DAN doctors, paedophiles and Scientologists. Keep slinging mud, with each volley your credibility declines accordingly and those seeking help for persons with autism disorder have one less obstacle to overcome.
anonimouse
The answer to your question – at least in my son´s case- is a big NO. I invite you to read some comment on published science on the topic I have summarized in my blog.
You don´t “imagine” a severe deficiency of IgA//IgA secretory, the lack of gut flora, 500 times normal of Candida albicans overgrowth, chlostridia and others parasites imbalances, celiac disease, food intolerances and nutritional imbalances. You do not “imagine” clinical analysis results properly done in serious labs; you do not “imagine” severe GERD, you do not “imagine” pain with night awakenings in scream, etc, etc.
That stress can be collaborating ? Sure, but it is part it is not the only aspect to consider. I do not understand why always the exclusion is proposed
It is this ( stress) and SURELY NOT that (a real GI issue that can be properly tested/diagnosed)because THEY say it.
For me it is stress AND ….(depending on the individual) AND probably genetics in some degree (remember MET for example) AND unknown in some degree. In my son´s case, it was a combination of factors.
Mr. Doherty
Why do you see the acceptance of autistic people as such a threat to your agenda?
I have not seen anything on this blog to discourage science from pursuing the study of autism. I see the opposite, I believe there is encouragement for real scientific efforts to determine what autism really is, how it comes about and how to improve the very difficult manifestations that accompany it.
I have seen, and I welcome, a very keen insistence that the science be factual, professional and subjected to peer review. How can that be bad?
I support autism research. I also support autistic people, in fact I love two of them. I do not see these avenues as mutually exclusive. I have tried to read as much as I can about autism but I still don’t know what it really is. I hope that one day science can answer that for me, I am not capable of researching that on my own.
There are already a large number of children and adults among us that are autistic. They are being devalued because of a label, because they are different. That bothers me a great deal, I want to change that. I want them to have every opportunity and all of the respect that we afford any other person.
I think we could all be on the same page.
Oh boy! Gut Issue are really getting buried under a pile of literary vomit today, huh? From stress induced GI issues brought on by overbearing parents with runaway imaginations and overzealous ABA therapists to every crackpot theory doctors Wakefield and Krigsman ever came up with. Kev why is it that that because only 49, 35, 20 or even 10% of the autistic population have GI symptoms, that there couldn’t POSSIBLY be a link?
Even if not, wouldn’t it be better that those parents should be on the lookout for the general variability of the digestive process in those stressed out autistic kids (especially those non verbal ones who may not be able to express their discomfort)?
Really guys, you could scare many parents into thinking their kidsa couldn’t possibly have anything wrong with their gut…
A lot of the enteric nervous system is nitrergic, that is NO is what controls it. The anal sphincter is relaxed by NO, constipation might be due to insufficient basal NO.
Stress causes low NO, so yes, stress does screw up the enteric nervous system. If you subject the enteric nervous system to “stress”, it can have a “meltdown” too. My hypothesis is that low NO reduces the connectivity of the enteric nervous system, and when it drops below the percolation threshold, all “hell” breaks loose, and it doesn’t work “for shit”, so to speak.
How about trying an old remedy (1907) for constant and excessive vomiting?
http://www.harvestfields.ca/HerbBooks/01/01/086.htm
3,000 to 6,000 micrograms of calomel every hour or half hour until “there is a decided change in the color and character of the stools” (aka a sign of mercury poisoning)
I suspect that this does not meet the current “standard of care”. But at the time, it wasn’t woo, it was state of the art medicine. Boy, isn’t it a good thing we are no longer living in the dark ages? Where children were given many milligrams of mercury and they got better? Children today are so “weak” that even a microgram of mercury is more than they can deal with. Children 100 years ago could tolerate 10,000 times more.
Livsparents,
Kev isn’t talking about stress and the gut, I am. Did you see the part where I said that some kids are autistic because of a known or knowable genetic disorder that may also (or usually does also) impact the functioning of the gut.
The answer is first of all work with a real doctor, one of which I am not, but if it was me in charge of the kid’s health, if your kid really can’t digest food and is really truly constipated and his diet isn’t the usual autistic one (very restrictive) then try to take him to a gastro-enterologist. If that doesn’t work, try to see if the pediatrician will check to see if he’s got problems with lactose intolerance, if that doesn’t work, see if he can’t digest fructose (supposed to be quite common), if that doesn’t work. I think all autistic kids need a really good visit to a genetecist since up to 50% of ‘autistic’ kids might have a diagnosable, but perhaps subtle form of a known genetic disorder.
See if the kid has food allergies. By all means if the kid needs to stay away from some particular food, keep it away from him.
But first of all see how much stress the kid is under. You can’t always tell from their faces either, you can tell by how much cortisol is in their spit, at least it works in experiments.
You better believe that parents put unusual amounts of stress on their kids, Bill. Autistic kids get smacked for doing thing they don’t understand is offensive, at least in cultures where parents regularly hit their kids, and no I’m not against spanking, intrinsically, I am against abuse. Then there’s the wholesale difficulties in related to other children which can turn ugly sometime before age 5 if my memory serves me.
If a child is not speaking at age 2, don’t you suppose he’s under stress quite a bit? Don’t you think it could cause an ulcer?
It is known that autistic kids are under more health endangering levels of stress and that their cortisol levels stay higher following stressful events than in normal kids. Are you going to just blow that fact off?
I believe autistic kids can suffer from gut problems, I just don’t believe for a minute that treating the gut problem is going to change the core issues that are eminating from the way the brain is wired from before birth.
As yummy as it sounds to “cure the gut, cure the autism,” “change the diet, get rid of the autism,” it just does NOT happen that way in real life.
Hi Kevin,
I agree with much of what you said. However, there may be a connection between gut issues and autism.
My son was part of a leaky gut study to see if kids with autism are more likely to have a leaky gut. It turned out that kids with autism are more likely to have a leaky gut than a typical kid.
The implications of this are still most unclear though. For example, does leaky gut cause behaviors associated with autism? Or does autism increase your chances of having a leaky gut.
Anyway, I thought I would drop that bit of information here.
Thanks
Harold –
I am sorry you have developed such a distaste for the views expressed by the “Neurodiverse”. I strongly believe that your analysis of the views espoused by many of us who frequent this site, among others, is incorrect.
While I have not viewed the debate between you and Michelle Dawson, it was referred to by Kevin as a primary factor in your dissatisfaction with the ND crowd.
At issue, apparently, was your disagreement with Michelle on the topic of ABA, whether it is effective, whether it is appropriate, whether it is even humane. If you look back at some of my comments, I also dispute Michelle’s views on this topic, albeit perhaps more respectfully than I would gather you do, based on your tone in comments made here.
The fact that I do not see eye-to-eye with Michelle – on this one topic – does not mean I am at odds with the entire community that associates with Michelle, nor with Michelle herself (who I do not know personally).
Nor does it mean that I do not believe in seeking help for autistic persons. Nor does it mean that I deny the existence of persons more severely affected than my own son.
I’m, sorry, Harold, but you need to get over your anger on this whole topic. I have read your blog and I know you have sunk a lot of effort into bringing about what you feel is an appropriate response for your local government to take. Please take notice that your actions – deliberately waging a war of words against the ND community – many of those being the population whom you have fought hard to help, is not only counterproductive, but also hypocritical.
_”You’ve really distinguished yourself this time Kev. The level of your comments to me are no more mature than your silly remarks in your DAN doctors, paedophiles and Scientologists. Keep slinging mud, with each volley your credibility declines accordingly and those seeking help for persons with autism disorder have one less obstacle to overcome.”_
Harold, I’ve tried being polite to you on your own blog, on Kristina’s and on here and I simply can’t be bothered any more. You’re an idiot. You demonstrate this idiocy by lying about the beleifs and motives of people that threaten your world view.
What _is_ your issue? Why do you find it necessary to simply make stuff up? And when people call you on it why do you get sulky? Why not try defending your stance?
re: DAN! docs. Believe it or not, some _are_ paedophiles. Some _are_ scientologists. Roy Kerry is a DAN! doctor? Don’t these things worry you? Or are you more concerned about scoring points?
Lastly, I couldn’t give a fig for ‘credibility’. This is my blog where I voice my opinions. I’ll leave the spin and political back slapping to you.
_”I agree with much of what you said. However, there may be a connection between gut issues and autism.”_
Of course there _may_ – but is there? And in what proportion of autistic kids?
_”My son was part of a leaky gut study to see if kids with autism are more likely to have a leaky gut. It turned out that kids with autism are more likely to have a leaky gut than a typical kid.”_
Which paper is this Michael?
I think we have to be very, very careful about assuming that because _some_ kids with autism have leaky gut that it is a de facto ‘part’ of autism. _Some_ autistic people have Asthma (inc Meg) – does that mean Asthma is a de facto ‘part’ of being autistic? Are these things in existence in significant numbers?
We’re barely scratching at the surface of accurate epidemiology as it pertains to autism. I can’t see how we can possibly know enough to start saying these things.
How about Epilepsy? A significant percentage of autistic people have epilepsy. Does that mean epilepsy is ‘part’ of autism? If so, why isn’t it in the DSM(IV)? How come there are epileptics who are not autistic?
Michael – obviously leaky gut is part of _your_ sons autistic ‘experience’ – as it is for Christian but I don’t see how we can proceed on the basis of anything except here’s something that maybe a significant comorbidity, but equally may not be.
Does that mean it shouldn’t be addressed and treated? Of course not. It should. Does it mean that (right now) we can add leaky gut to the list of things that ‘are’ autism? No way.
I’ve been reading this blog for a while, and I think what’s getting lost here is what Kev keeps pointing out.
NO ONE is saying a child in distress from pain, whether abdominal, head, or whatever, should not be diagnosed and treated. What they are saying is that you can’t blame all of the child’s problems on this one issue, and curing this issue will “cure” the child.
Maria points this out, as does Ms. Clark -IF a child has any health problems, diagnosed by a reputable practitioner, then those issues should be treated. But treating those issues will not cause the child to be less autistic. Treatment may decrease any behaviors related to coping with pain/discomfort/stress/whatever, but it does not cure the autism.
And, what Kev et all are saying, as I see it, is that while some problems may be more prevalent in the autistic community, they are not ‘markers’ of autism and should not be included in the diagnostic criteria.
Kev…keep up the good writing.
Hi Dawn
What I can say is that many of the supposed symptoms to diagnose autism under the DSMIV- surprisingly for me I must say- were very much ameliorated or disappeared completely when all the issues I mentioned were properly addressed.
You know, I have problems with the position
“Cure (gut/immune system/Whatever) and you will cure autism”- how are the bases in the DNA going to be changed if you heal GI issues/immune dysregulation and so on- but also with ” to heal GI issues/immune dysregulation and so on has NOTHING to do with ASD”- because gene expressions, epistasis- that is interaction between genes- and all the proteomics /metabolism/biochemistry that genes/epigenetics can be affected by. Also all the emotional/psychological effects of the many effects of a different genetics , such as in ASD, and different gene expresion can have.
For me, is very much complex.
Am I going to “cure autism” with any of the treatments of whatever I can find as Concomitant medical problems ?
NO- for now with the status of the knowledge and the problems about the definition of what autism is.
Am I going to touch the different genetic expression and the consequences of these with the environment?
PERHAPS; Who can be sure of the NEGATIVE or the POSITIVE if nobody has studied properly the overall issue as it deserves at the autistic people population of all ages? What I can say is that in the case of my autistic son, I did and I healed – and am in the process of healing- CMP with impressive effects in his well-being and happiness.
The main problem is when the debate is reduced to CAUSE/CURES of “autism”. For me , as a parent/mom, I want the best health for my autistic son-what I find that can be producing pain/distress/hindering of the best outcome. As a scientist I would want to know the causes- that BTW, is not only one and are not- as such- the ones that are currently discussed many times. For me it is much more complicated and somehow ambiguous and different for each one and so on.
I do not discount the possibility that autism and GI disorders COULD be related. (or that there is a particular pathology that causes autism and GI disorders in a subset of kids)
My problem is more along the lines of some parents assuming that any GI disorder is related to their child’s autism, and furthermore, caused by some hideous environmental factor that has to be expunged from the body through unproven drugs. It is certainly possible for a child to have Chron’s and be autistic, for example.
Hi Kev,
Let me address your questions in turn here:
“Of course there may – but is there? And in what proportion of autistic kids?”
I don’t have the numbers off hand, but there was a higher likelihood that kids with autism will have leaky gut. Not that all do, but simply that kids with autism are more likely to have it than typical kids.
“Which paper is this Michael?”
The paper on this should be released in another month or so. It is my son’s developmental pediatrician so I was able to ask her about the conclusions before she published them.
“I think we have to be very, very careful about assuming that because some kids with autism have leaky gut that it is a de facto ‘part’ of autism. Some autistic people have Asthma (inc Meg) – does that mean Asthma is a de facto ‘part’ of being autistic? Are these things in existence in significant numbers?”
I much agree with what you say here. The study just points out the leaky gut rates of typical v. autistic kids. It does not mean, of course, that all autistic kids have a leaky gut or will have one.
“Michael – obviously leaky gut is part of your sons autistic ‘experience’ – as it is for Christian but I don’t see how we can proceed on the basis of anything except here’s something that maybe a significant comorbidity, but equally may not be.”
That was the point of the study Kev. To see if there is a relationship between autism and leaky gut. It seems, there is. What that means, who knows!
I will try to get the doc on the podcast once she releases the study. It is interesting stuff and worth exploring. It is, as usual, not the one thing that means autism. Rather, it is appearing to be on of the many things.
Thanks,
Michael Boll
Given that disturbances in serotonin levels, transport, and storage are one of the most consistent findings in autism, why is it surprising that GI disturbances would be more frequent in autistic people?
As ‘daedalus2u’ pointed out, there are many similarities between the ENS and the CNS. Something that may effect one will probably effect the other. That’s a long way from establishing a connection between GI disturbances and autistic behaviors and very far from a role for mercury as the causative agent.
There’s an IMFAR abstract that reports an increased rate of gastro symptoms.
http://www.cevs.ucdavis.edu/IMFAR/abst.cfm?abstid=11351
Conclusion: Preliminary findings confirm increased rate of GIS in PDD possibly related to diet and IQ with no differences in gut permeability between children with PDD and those without.
Not a bad conclusion, in my opinion. Does anyone have or know an autistic child with a less than typical diet?
Hi not mercury
Yes, I saw that; and I also found the potential connection between the serotonine levels and the Brain Derivated Neurotrophic Factor in autism- very interesting (for me) to look at.
Int Rev Neurobiol. 2004;59:111-74.
Serotonin and brain development.
Sodhi MS, Sanders-Bush E.
…The role of the serotonergic system in the neuroplastic events that create, repair, and degenerate the brain has been explored. Synaptic plasticity occurs throughout life and is critical during brain development. Evidence from biochemical, pharmacological, and clinical studies demonstrates the huge importance of an intact serotonergic system for normal central nervous system (CNS)function. Serotonin acts as a growth factor during embryogenesis, and serotonin receptor activity forms a crucial part of the cascade of events leading to changes in brain structure. The serotonergic system interacts with brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), S100beta, and other chemical messengers, in addition to ts cross talk with the GABAergic, glutamatergic, and dopaminergic neurotransmitter systems. Disruption of these processes may contribute to CNS disorders that have been associated with impaired development…
“My problem is more along the lines of some parents assuming that any GI disorder is related to their child’s autism”
But in a manner of speaking, don’t GI play a role in autism? Forgive me, because we are facing a case and point at this moment. We beleive she is having some distress, possibly constipation, might be something else, but for the past week we have been wondering if it was a more assertive behavior; a problem with transition. Even with people ‘in tuned’ to the possible symptoms of GI-type distresses, it’s still sometimes a crap-shoot (had to work THAT on in ;)). I wonder how many kids are dealing with this that are labled ‘behavior problems’ and they just plain hurt and no one can understand.
I agree that causation is one thing to fight against when talking about GI issues, but their effect could show just as much promise for other kids if we could get them ‘fixed’.
Michael – sounds look a very interesting paper. Is there anything else you can talk about? I understand you might be under embargo but any tidbits would be welcome. Looking forward to the ‘cast!
I don’t see any evidence that changing diet or adding a drug, is going to change “the gut” and also change the core attributes of autism.
Sure a kid might spend less time staring and flapping if he feels good than if he feels awful, he might spend less time head banging or pacing, but guess what? The underlying autism is still there and if a bad toothache or a parent’s divorce or bullying or death of a pet affects the child later on, the staring, flapping and head banging might return, just as easily as it went away when the belly pain disappeared.
To me, that’s the logical way of looking at “the gut and autism.”
Anything else, like the hypothesis wherein a leaky gut allows opiods into the brain which take a perfectly normal kid and make him “smacked out of his mind,” and therefor autistic, as a commenter on a YouTube video said (according to a recent video by Christschool that documents that comment) is just pathetic and the stomping ground of quacks.
And none of my comments mean that I have some kind of influence over what research will be done in the future on the “gut” in autism.
Here’s my message to all the autism researchers and gut researchers (who don’t read what I say anyway): Make sure you study the gut in autism, and if you want to make me happy, start with studying the effect of the massive amounts of cortisol that autistic “guts” are exposed to.
But in a manner of speaking, don’t GI play a role in autism? Forgive me, because we are facing a case and point at this moment. We beleive she is having some distress, possibly constipation, might be something else, but for the past week we have been wondering if it was a more assertive behavior; a problem with transition. Even with people ‘in tuned’ to the possible symptoms of GI-type distresses, it’s still sometimes a crap-shoot (had to work THAT on in ;)). I wonder how many kids are dealing with this that are labled ‘behavior problems’ and they just plain hurt and no one can understand.
Of course it can. But an autistic kid can get a stomach virus just like an NT kid. An autistic kid can withhold stool just like an NT kid, causing constipation alternating with diarrhea. While I don’t discount the idea that there might specific GI issues inherent with autism, I also think there are many issues that are common in all kids that are simply harder to deal with in autistics.
The challenge, obviously, is to separate the wheat from the chaff – to determine which ones truly are related to autism and which ones aren’t.
I just think all of these parents having kids with autism, and not wanting them to get better and all they do is just trash biomedical interventions…bunch of idiots…if your kid was diagnosed with a chronic and painful, and terminal illness, wouldn’t you do anything as a parent to make your son/daughter feel better? or save him/her? Wake up and smell the coffee people…vaccines, environmental factors, the world in general is just freaking toxic, anything and everything causes autism, developmental delays, etc…and by the way, any of these were even heard of back in the 80’s when I was growing up….wouldn’t you do anything to have your autistic kid look at you and tell you how much he/she loves you? and just seeing your kid happy and enjoy childhood….Well I’m a parent of autistic kids that I love with my entire soul and would do anything and everything for them….and yes they’re both improving tremendously with biomedical interventions….thanks to the world for DAN doctors who have taken their time to help us out and give some of us hope and give us our children back……all these people that all they do is trash biomed, and put these stupid blogs together just to bad mouth people who are helping our autistic kids, you outta take a look at your life and think wouldn’t you play your wild card just to see your kid happy? just take the chance in helping your kid? well obviously you don’t…your brains are just full of judgements…just feel sorry for you people, don’t know what you’re missing, stop wasting time writing your negative crap because the truth will prevail one day, and you guys will realize how much precious time you just wasted in being judgemental……..js.
anonimouse
You are right in the sense of how we assign “symptoms” that my child can not tell if it hurts something, how much and so on. This is one of the worst aspects when dealing with CMP: to know about what is happening to him in terms of disconfort.
Is he screaming because of pain? Is he more hyper because of pain? Has he a headache? HAs he changed his behavior for worse/better because of … what? these are common questions for me.Sometimes I can find an answer. Sometimes.
Recently he has been able to tell me sometimes if his stomach hurts or if he has a headache. I also think that the same medical condition is presented/communicated differently by an autistic child,especially if there is no verbal language.
Dear Ms. Simpson,
I’m not sure the star of any movie based on the television show “Dukes Of Hazzard” needs to be lecturing on the subject of autism.
But I digress.
I’m not sure what people don’t understand about the concept of “false dichotomy”. This issue is not “treat” or “leave alone”.
It’s about a legitimate question of whether issues like chronic GI issues are part of the pathology of autism. (or a subset of autistics)
It’s about whether the biomedical treatments promoted by DAN doctors are of real benefit, especially when there is little or no peer-reviewed medical literature on most of them.
It’s about assigning the blame for autism to vaccines, mercury, or nebulous environmental causes, when the scientific evidence supporting that claim is at best sketchy and at worst non-existent.
I don’t think it is ever appropriate to just throw treatments at a wall to see if they stick, especially when some of them come with legitimate side effects and burdens on both the child and the family. There is a process – a real process – for determining whether a particular intervention helps a child. It’s called a study. And it should concern you that there are few, if any, studies that support the use of these treatments published in legitimate medical journals.
Because let’s face it, you have no clue whether your child was helped by these treatments or whether your child was helped by other therapies or even the passage of time. You might THINK it helped, or even believe it did. But you don’t know.
Or would you rather just spend your money and time without knowing?
Hi Kev,
“Michael – sounds look a very interesting paper. Is there anything else you can talk about? I understand you might be under embargo but any tidbits would be welcome. Looking forward to the ‘cast!”
No embargo on my end. I just don’t remember too much about the details of the conversation I had, but figured I would chat about it more on a podcast.
It just seems to me that the causes of autism seem to be emerging a bit lately. They also seem to be a variety of factors rather than a single cause.
Take care,
Michael
Many parents of autistic kids note that their children have very long eyelashes. Does that mean that long eyelashes are a symptom of autism that needs treating? Do we even know that long eyelashes are more prevalent in children with autism, or is is just that kids with autism are very cute? 😉
But seriously, no one is suggesting that kids with autism who ALSO have GI problems do not deserve proper medical treatment. Of course they do. Pain in children should always be treated, particularly if the child is unable to tell what the problem is. But does that automatically suggest that these GI problems are in any way connected with autism? After all, GI problems are very common in children in general. I personally know an NT child who required surgery to remove a seriously impacted large block of fecal matter, caused by his fear of pooping on the toilet. He deserved treatment, but that doesn’t mean he had autism.
Maria,
I know your son has medically diagnosed problems, which happen to coincide with those problems highlighted by DAN! as typical of autistic children. But his problems also happen to be very common in children with or without autism. Don’t you think that it is possible that DAN! is selecting those problems just because they are very common (and many times are readily treated) and assigning them to “autistic symptoms”?
“Miss Simpson”,
No vaccines for you huh? So you didn’t go to school? I grew up in the 80s and had vaccines. I’m autistic. GENETICALLY AUTISTIC.
And I went to school. Maybe that’s why I know how to punctuate and make paragraphs, because I had vaccinations and could go to school? A 40 line run on sentence is extraordinarily…noncoherant.
Thanks, Kassiane. 😀
_”Many parents of autistic kids note that their children have very long eyelashes. Does that mean that long eyelashes are a symptom of autism that needs treating? Do we even know that long eyelashes are more prevalent in children with autism, or is is just that kids with autism are very cute? ;)”_
Exactly Jennifer. ‘Association’ is a powerful word. Are GI issues associated with autism? Are long eyelashes? Is an abiding fondness for Thomas the Tank Engine?
Non autistic people have these aspects to their lives also. But non autistic people do not exhibit the symptoms shown in the DSM(IV).
_”It just seems to me that the causes of autism seem to be emerging a bit lately. They also seem to be a variety of factors rather than a single cause.”_
I agree with the second part of that. A variety of factors for a variety of ‘autisms’ no doubt. I’m not sure that causes are emerging though. I see a greater understanding of how some autistic peoples lives play out – medically, in this case – but I don’t know that we know anywhere near enough to start talking about causes yet.
Both sides of the issue are full of people with lousy, lousy, critical thinking skills. I can’t believe all of the rage from the majority of people who refuse to acknowledge the possibility that SOME KINDS of autistic symptoms are autoimmune and function in a feedback loop with the GI system. Your pompous, stupid, terrified, rage. Maybe your kids DON’T have immune system irregularities, and so NOONE ELSE better have a kid who responds to this treatment. You’re just jealous. You revert back to “ooh, this is all mercury, ooh, this is all mercury” because you can’t admit that there really are sophisticated immunological hypotheses. My own child’s symptoms improved to the point of being almost indetectable when her severe allergies were treated in a matter of 3 weeks. She didn’t “develop” out of it. I’m lying? No, you fucking asshole, I’m not.
Your personal anecdote is an example of your critical thinking skills 7?
Interesting.
No, it isn’t mercury, it is nitric oxide, it is all nitric oxide.
Actually, immune system activation supports the low NO hypothesis of ASDs.
One of the things that the immune system does when it is activated is crank-up the production of superoxide, which is dismutated to H2O2, so it can diffuse to the extravascular space where myeloperoxidase uses it to destroy anything and everything that the immune system “wants” to destroy (and some stuff it doesn’t).
Similarly, NFkB (the “master switch” of the immune system) causes expression of iNOS, which makes lots of NO and also superoxide, which also diffuses to the extravascular space where myeloperoxidase uses it to destroy stuff. The “net” result is oxidative stress, which exacerbates low NO.
iNOS is only around transiently (about a day or so), and then it goes away, leaving the system in a state of oxidative stress (which necessarily is a low NO state).
NFkB is inhibited by basal NO, so if you are in a low NO state, when NFkB gets activated, it causes the expression of more iNOS than it other wise would. A low NO state exacerbates over activation of the immune system.
There is what I call the “low NO ratchet”. When there is immune stystem stimulation, NFkB is activated and causes the expression of iNOS which generates a transient high level of NO. This high NO can feed-back on the expression of eNOS and nNOS, and so reduce the constituative espression of NOS enzymes, and so lower NO levels after the iNOS goes away in a day or so. This leads to NO levels that are lower than before the immune system activation. This makes the immune system more sensitive, and the next time it is activated, causes even greater overproduction of iNOS. Every time the immune system is activated, basal NO levels ratchet lower.
If basal NO levels get low enough, they start to impact things like mitochondria biogenesis, which then induces a permanant state of oxidative stress.
Fix the state of oxidative stress, then basal NO levels can go back up, and normal physiology can be restored. Supplemental antioxidants don’t work to remove oxidative stress, they can actually make it worse (see JAMA article)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17327526&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum
I think this may be the “cause” of the anecdotal temporal associatioin of ASD symptoms with vaccination, or with illness, or with allergies. It isn’t the mercury in vaccines, it is the immune system stimulation, which is the “therapeutic” effect of vaccines.
daedalus2u: “Actually, immune system activation supports the low NO hypothesis of ASDs.
How does your hypothesis explain elevated NO and nitrites reported by several investigators?
The thing is, severe pain is very distracting. It is very well known that children undergoing painful treatments for various other diseases (or who are ill for a material length of time) are developmentally delayed: the brain focuses on that to the exclusion of other growth, and probably rightly so — survival is at stake. So for a group of children for whom there is some GI problem, treating that problem (by REAL doctors) could make a huge difference. We know that from celiacs who seem autistic, only to prove “false positive” if you can just fix the underlying problem.
But no amount of scoping is going to change something that was formed at the very earliest stages of embryonic development in a completely different part of the body. Because the diagnostic criteria for autism describe symptoms, and those symptoms can be caused by different issues, we should not be surprised to find that some things turn out to be generated by another cause other than neurological difference. As to the other digestive issues we see in autism, the “white” diet surely must play a heavy role. I do wonder what came first, the gut problem or the white diet. 😉 In my own son, we work to diversify the diet as much as possible, but he also gets chewable fiber pills that have greatly improved his situation. He likes pears and LOVES yogurt smoothies. In the “least invasive approach first” theory, we just took a straight-forward approach to the tummy and got fabulous results.
In his case, the gut was not an issue. He’s never had bloating or any such thing: he was merely constipated a good bit from downing nothing but apples, dairy, and white bread. But I know for certain (because I looked) that his vaccines were thimerosol free. His heavy metal tests (ordered as part of diagnosis, not my idea) were perfectly clean. Home boy is just wired differently in the head, not the gut.
And it frustrates me NO END when well-meaning people with NO idea will say to me at parties “oh, I heard that has been proven to be caused by vaccines!!” Then I have to smile and explain that the opposite has been pretty conclusively proven. Indeed, the chelation nuts have done quite a number on getting their story out into the urban legend network.
I believe, for myself, that it has a genetic basis that is enhanced by environmental factors (ie, the experiment we’re running in this country and Western Europe in delayed childbearing, in all its interesting implications). I get angry when I think of children dying of preventable diseases, or their mothers contracting them while pregnant from their unvaccinated toddlers, because of a myth.
It’s ALL nitric oxide?
1 word for you: MECP2.
And 2 more: mitochondrial diseases.
Both proven (yes PROVEN) causes of clinical autism. Neither having much, if anything, to do with NO. Or metals for that matter.
Nitrite is the terminal metabolite of NO. NO has a very short half life, seconds (depending on the compartment and concentration), there has been no measurement of actual NO levels in ASDs (it is actually not possible with current techniques). Measuring nitrite and attempting to infer NO concentrations is like measuring CO2 and attempting to infer O2 concentrations. They are not (necessarily) related.
The complimentary principle (sort of) to NO, is superoxide. Superoxide and NO distroy each other with diffusion limited kinetics. You can’t have both present at the same time, which ever one is in excess will destroy the one that isn’t. Superoxide is mostly confined to vesicles, like mitochondria, peroxisomes and microsomes. It is vectorally produced to the inside of the vesiscle. As an anion, it can’t go through membranes except through anion channels. NO is freely diffusible and so can go into these vesicles and be destroyed.
What is important is not the absolute amount of NO or superoxide, but which one is in excess. If superoxide is in excess, then you have a system dominated by superoxide, the “oxidative stress” state. If NO is in excess, you have the opposit of an “oxidative stress state”.
What triggers mitochondria biogenesis is NO.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=15545607
Not enough basal NO, not enough basal mitochondria biogenesis.
What regulates O2 consumption by mitochondria is NO. NO is intimately related to many aspects of mitochondrial physiology under normal and abnormal conditions. Many proteins in mitochondria are regulated by NO via nitrosylation during hypoxia. Many proteins are nitrated and denitrated during hypoxia. There is some thought that that this nitration and denitration is some sort of regulation, but the details remain unknown.
MECP2 deficiency cause Rett syndrome, which has some similarities to ASDs, but it distinct from them. The vast majority of ASD individuals do not have MECP2 deficiencies. The mechanism by which MECP2 causes Rett syndrome remains unknown. I suspect it will involve NO.
I have put some stuff on my blog about NO physiology. NO is involved in thousands of pathways. The largest class of transcription factors are the zinc finger proteins. Moving zinc onto and off of proteins is regulated by NO.
The point I make in today’s blog is that a change in the basal NO level will affect all NO regulated pathways with no threshold. Because NO is already in the “active range”, that is it is already “controlling” something, any change in the basal level will affect the output.
What happens when you change thousands of different pathways in one direction? It is not something that can be predicted a priori.
Actually, they DO know how MECP2 works….the protein that MECP2 regulates plays in turning methylation genes on & off and if it isn’t properly functioning then Rett can develop.
Or something that looks kind of like Rett (several varieties of nonclassic Rett, including early onset Rett, which is the kind with no regression but delayed development from the beginning, and speech & hand use preserved Rett).
And some people who look just plain AUTISTIC without the other associated features have been found to have MECP2 mutations, as well as women with sort of Rett sort of not brain conditions NOS.
I’m SPV Rett/autistic via MECP2. This one I KNOW. Everyone has their pet theory. Too bad pet theories aren’t always right, eh?
I had a comment which I posted and was lost. I am too tired now to recreate it. I will do so later.
Daedalus2u –
I think, having read the blog post that you referred to, I have to ask for clarification. Are you hyposthesizing that modern hygienic practices are linked to autism?
Yes, it is modern bathing practices, which by removing the very important commensal autotrophic ammonia oxidizing bacteria (which set the basal NO/nitrite level by oxizing the ammonia in sweat) cause a reduction in basal NO/nitrite levels.
The lower NO/nitrite levels then mimic the effects of “stress” (which is a low NO state), and so invoke all the “stress” physiological responses. Those responses while adaptive in the short term (to respond to the stress), are maladaptive in the long term (otherwise we would have them all the time).
I think that all the so-called environmental toxic effects are actually caused by low NO. Endocrine disruption for example. NO regulates steroid synthesis by inhibiting the cytochrome P450 enzymes that are the rate limiting step in steroid synthesis. Steroid synthesis is pretty complicated, with multiple enzymes and multiple compounds acting both as product and substrate for different enzymes in different comparments. But lower NO levels and you affect all of the enzymes in a characteristic way. I think, that this is the mechanism by which antibiotics in animal feed increase size, feed efficiency and accelerate sexual maturity in farm animals (the actual mechanism remains unknown). The antibiotics inhibit these bacteria, lower NO levels and invoke the “stress” response of growing bigger, maturing faster and using feed more efficiently. I think that bathing is doing to us, what antibiotics do to farm animals. The age of menarche has dropped from nearly 17 150 years ago to maybe 12 now?
ASDs are a spectrum, at one end, you have NTs, then people with Asperger’s, then people who have much more difficulty. I think the difference is (mostly) the level of NO during development in utero and early childhood. But increasing NO later does help. I have experience remarkable changes and I am now 52.
I think that ASDs are fundamentally human traits, that all humans have to some degree. It is what makes us human. But like all evolved features, it can be pushed to an extreme and dysfunctional state, sort of like anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis is bad, but a strong immune system is good. I presume that with enough immunosuppressants you could prevent the possibility of anaphylaxis, but then you would be extremely susceptible to infection.
Daedalus2u –
You will forgive me, I am sure, if my initial reaction to your hypothesis is one of skepticism.
I am in no way qualified to comment on the quality of your information or conclusions, but I guess my first question would be: What exists in the way of epidemiological evidence to support your hypothesis?
I would assume that hygienic habits vary from location to location around the globe. Do the diseases and developmental abnormalities you are referring to in your hypothesis also vary by region? There many more specific questions that would follow this line of reasoning, most of which you have likely already considered, so I will just leave the question broad-based so you can answer as you see fit.
I lost another big post.
Yes, there is epidemiological evidence. All of the degenerative diseases which have been characterized in the literature as being associated with low NO, are virtually unknown in the rural undeveloped world, including obesity, diabetes, heart disease, liver failure, kidney failure, allergies, autoimmune disorders. When people migrate from regions of low incidence to regions of high incidence, their incidence approaches that of their new region. People with ancestors from tropical regions tend to be hit harder by these diseases, I think because their ancestors didn’t evolve compensatory pathways to deal with the loss of NO from these bacteria during winter.
If you look at figure 1 in this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9915983&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum
the age of menarche has dropped from nearly 17 in 1850, to about 12 now. One of the health changes that occurred in that time frame was the advent of municipal water supplies and the germ theory.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/suppl_1/DC4?fbdm
The “conventional wisdom†that it has to do with diet seems unlikely to me. It is inconceivable that parents in 1850 would allow their children to be malnourished if they could help it. In the US, there was no inflection during the depression, suggesting that individual privation was not the cause.
Bathing per se, has nothing to do with preventing disease. It was the removal of pathogens from drinking water that did that, and hand washing prior to food preparation. Bathing one’s body has no positive health effects (so far as I have been able to ascertain). Every culture that has a seasonal cold period has the custom of sweat baths. The use of soap and running water for bathing afterward is a very late (and I think counter productive) addition to the custom.
In the “wildâ€, it would be impossible for humans to not develop a biofilm of these bacteria, which (in the absence of bathing) is stable for years.
I think that there have been multiple technological advances that have slowly caused a decline in these bacteria. First, the advent of municipal water supplies and the germ theory. Second, the use of modern purification techniques which remove all bacteria (as opposed to use of untreated well water). Third, the use of alkylbenzene sulfonate anionic detergents which are toxic to these bacteria at ppm levels. Fourth, the advent of conditioning shampoos, which allow daily hair washing without one’s hair turning to straw. Fifth, the use of anti-microbial everything for absolutely no reason.
These bacteria are not rare, they are universally found in all soils, all natural water supplies, including in many mineral springs. I have found them as commensal organisms on diverse eukaryotes, including clams, mussels, lobsters, turtles, earthworms. They are responsible for the first step in the process of nitrification. Most plants absorb nitrogen as nitrate. Some plants have a biofilm of these bacteria on their roots.
A biofilm in vivo produces NO promptly (