I found a link to Wade’s blog that talked basically about how proud he was of the 10 or so people who attended the ‘Simpsonwood remembered‘ conference this weekend (big get together for tinfoil hat fanciers).
He linked to a few images of the event and as if I needed it, I was given a pertinent reminder of the average intelligence of the rank and file Mercury Militia members.
Please, feel free to point and laugh.
This, by the way, supplants my other favourite picture, taken at a David Kirby book reading:
Left Brain Right Brain 
I do not see these people laughing. When someone can provide even the tiniest bit of evidence that they, too, are laughing, then I’ll laugh with them. Until then, I find this whole thing extremely offensive and rather hypocritical.
Being told “get over it” as a way of dismissing my (and others’) concerns is also a rather hurtful way of dismissing what is, to me, a legitimate concern.
As for the president of the US, I feel the same way here – I see people making fun of his communication, which happens to be very similar to the communication problems that many people with disabilities happen to have.
The arguments I’ve seen here so far could be summed up as:
1) They aren’t disabled, so it’s okay to laugh. Yet, we’ve recently went through a major thing in the Hub, which, included among other things, that you can’t assume things about someone’s disability status. This has nothing to do with Kev’s neurology, but everything to do with the argument Kev and others were using (which I happen to agree with – we can’t make assumptions about people’s neurology, even if we think they are doing bad things or are misled or whatever else).
2) It’s okay to laugh with people. Sure, I’d agree. They aren’t laughing AFAIK, and it would seem to make sense to verify this fact before claiming to laugh with them.
The right thing to do would say, “I didn’t realize that this would be offensive to some. To those I’ve caused offense, I appologize.” (NOTE: Appologies should not be qualified) Then perhaps we could focus on what was said at the conference (which I would think is far more important than proving that you’re in the right to laugh at people’s spelling) rather than how it’s said.
It did offend *me*. I also sure hope that people don’t do this to me when I have a communication difficulty, in writing or otherwise, as I can assure you that you will NOT be laughing with me. You’ll be doing no different than the bullies I went to school with.
Actually falling out of a wheelchair can be funny, when it’s Laura dumping me on my face thinking she knows how to do a transfer when she doesn’t. 😛
But that’s gimps laughing at ourselves, that’s different than someone else saying “point and laugh” etc. And I totally agree with Joel. This isn’t about getting over “ourselves”, it’s about something we’re seeing that’s a real problem and people seem to just want their “right” to poke fun at people without being called on it.
Which, like Joel, reminds me so much of the schoolyard.
I’m entirely with you on that, Kev… having been the butt of his ‘humour’ (which humour doesn’t extend to when people return fire – at which point he whinges like a told-off toddler and hunts for sympathy from the many non-intellectuals who follow him).
I’m not sure who’s on John’s blog these days. It’s been awhile since I went and had a look but I would imagine its John, a few sockpuppets staffed by John, a few people from AutismWeb (dgdavies, respect, crystal and srinath) and a few whiners from EoH I made look silly.
As I say – a collective yawn :o) Let ’em fulminate in their own juices. They’re entirely irrelevant.
Amanda/Joel – a small thought: that picture would be funny if there were no people in it. Its not the people that make it funny.
It’s the fact of *who* wrote it that it looks like people are writing about it – it’s about making the anti-vax people look stupid (although I’m sure everyone will tell me it’s really about how they laugh at every spelling mistake on earth). THAT is the problem, whether there is people in the picture or not.
I just realized my first sentence makes no sense (my own communication issue).
It’s the fact that the signs were written by people being made fun of that I had a problem with this.
I feel as though i’ve just been through a graduate seminar on the semiotics of humor after reading this thread. One additional thought, before this horse is declared officially deceased:
It seems to me the source of any humor here is the contrast between the bluster and utter self-seriousness of the Simpsonwood protest campaign and, in this instance, its rather amateurish execution. I think it comes off as funny because, for many people here, it could stand as a pretty good analogy for the whole mercury movement. To me, that makes it different from some kind of simplistic schoolyard taunt.
I understand what Joel and Amanda are getting at and i respect their opinions. But i also think their argument gets into a pretty complicated area. It seems to suggest a kind of neurological determinism — that being critical here (and i think laughter can be an expression of criticism) is wrong because something about these individuals’ neurological makeup led to this spelling mistake. If that’s the case, then can we criticize anything about their actions — or even their opinions and positions — since those too could be thought of as products of that neurology?
It’s the old “slippery slope” argument, probably taken to too much of an extreme. But still worth thinking about.
That’s not really the argument.
But, the “humor” was about the “average intelligence” of whoever these people are, and as such it moves it well into the realm of the sort of thing Joel and I were talking about.
(And I have no clue what neurological determinism is or care, I just know a certain kind of cruel mockery when I see it.)
I figure if these guys have dyslexia, and they heard that autistics have dyslexia sometimes, they’d run out and get themselves chelated ASAP as they are probably making sure that any ASD child relatives they have are being chelated.
The thing about humor is that it can function as a sort of social discipline. This is frequently abused in the case of schoolyard taunting sort of laughing, but it’s also used mightily in the case of political cartoons and other kinds of lampooning, etc.
These guys seemed to be lampooning their own “movement.”
Maybe it’s rude to laugh at them, but I’m still giggling, the white socks don’t help any.
I don’t know who it was, but a U.S. Senator once said during a hearing about defining p*rnography for the purpose of censorship:
“I don’t know how to define it, but I know it when I see it.”
Or something to that effect. I think that applies here. To both sides.
Yeah, I know the whole lampooning thing, but I know that if someone you all didn’t like, said something along the lines of what Kev said, then you might care or not care, you might dismiss it or not, but you wouldn’t see it as just all in good fun.
Dear Mr. Andrews,
After reading you Post on “distinction” I was happy to see that at least one person here recognizes that there is a distinction that is medically recognized between autism and other childhood neurodevelopmental syndromes.
I took a moment to read the web-site that you reference. I was aware of the diagnosis of CDD but I had never seen such a concise straightforward explanation of the illnes.
I do want to bring to your attention one point and that is how the etiology of the disease is dealt with. I quote;
“The etiology is unknown but several lines of evidence suggest that it arises as a result of some form of central nervous system pathology.”
Don’t you think a toxic insult could be a form of “central nervous system pathology”? If the central nervous system is damaged, why is it so out of the realm of medical probability that the pathological agent causing the damage is mercury injected into the bloodstream during a vaccination?
Thank you,
Russel V. Mancino
To me a dyslexic who has had to endure people taking the piss out of my spelling it is not funny and it just shows up the shallowness, the falsity of all of those arguments that proceed from mocking the frailties of the presenters not there arguments.
And it hurts so much that I have been accused by Kev of setting up straw men and using ad hominems, but I see now who is the more mature.
Kev it might do you well to realise that Shakespeare could not spell consistently, nor any of his contemporaries, but that diminished the validity of there art, and there intellectual discussion not one jot.
However what Shakespeare was guilty of was the same sin of using disability to diminish a persons moral standing, vis Richard 3rd.
I really think you need a lesson in disability equality training, because you are no better in this than the type of person who accuses his opponent of being a “retard”
This kind of thing does you and the hub and our cause (if we still can consider we have common cause) no good whatever.
Say what you will about me, you have anyway, but take that plank out of your own eye first.
Again would you mock someone for there pronunciation of a word? that is as bad as mocking them for the spelling. I have had to put up with all kinds of mockery, for my spelling, my pronunciation of words, for the way I speak, for wearing glasses. It ain’t funny, it ain’t sensible.
And BTW why do my posts still show up as “hub blogger” please can you ensure that they do not show up thuswise.
Russel,
That I wouldn’t know off-hand. Certainly, in principle this possible connection should be investigated… as for the mercury issue: it’s not clear how mercury *in a compound* can do significant damage such as would need to be done in order to cause what is basically seen as a cognitive decline.
And another thing, dyslexia is part of neurodiversity, there is a whole movement out there which is equally proud of the dyslexic difference as some are of autistic difference. Yes there are dyslexics who challenge the system too, and who complain about non dyslexics running the organisations and parents speaking for dyslexia.
Richard Branson is dyslexic and not too proud to deny it.
Larry please – fuck off my friend. You’re an idiot. Not because you’re autistic and not because you’re dyslexic but mainly because you’re a whiny bitch.
Here’s an uncomfortable set of truths.
1) The Hub can include any blog I choose to include. I don’t have to ask your permission. Look up RSS sometime.
2) I stopped pandering to you when it became clear that you were composed mainly of shit. I don’t consider myself an ally of you or autistic people like yourself any more. If you want to, feel free to cry about that.
3) People are funny. You can paint that into your own personal history of bullying and persecution if you so desire or you can choose not to. Whichever you chose is of little to no interest to me.
4) I have no time for anyone from the antivaccine movement. If they make a mistake like this, I will point and laugh and invite others to do the same.
One of the things I’ve discovered of late is that no matter which community you are part of there’s always a bunch of pompous assholes around. You tried very hard to make me feel like this sort of quasi-sanctimonious bullshit was my fault before and I fell for it. This time – shove it. I’m not the same person I was two weeks ago. From now on, I’ll say exactly what I like to whomever I like about whatever I like. If that’s not part of your myopic hippy-trip, too fucking bad.
I see some unfortunate events have taken place while I’ve been absent. Anyone care to fill me in? (Email me).
“It takes courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more courage to stand up to your friends.”
Yeah it’s a Harry Potter quote, but, appropriate. Neville was always my favorite character.
“it might do you well to realise that Shakespeare could not spell consistently, nor any of his contemporaries, but that diminished the validity of there art”
That has a lot to do with the lack of dictionaries and standardized spelling, and not with any dyslexia. Sorry. No go.
The picture would be funny with or without people.
I reckon it’s funny, because they’re inviting people to Google the wrong word. It wouldn’t be so funny without the
Google:
above the misspelled word.
Anyway, who has Googled ‘Simsonwood’?
The 2nd hit is to this blog! (It’s in a comment, but it would have been hilarious if it was in the text of Kev’s post. Or at least, humour being subjective and all, I think so.)
Yes, without ‘Google’ it wouldn’t be funny. It would still be funny though without the people featured.
There are websites with pictures of funny signs from all over the world and they’re hilarious. Does this change just because there were people that made mistakes while making those signs?
Okay, it seems people have a lot invested in being able to laugh at this. It’s offensive to a lot of people that laughing at this is as important as it apparently is.
I find it offensive that anyone can tell me what I should and shouldn’t find funny.
Funny does not automatically equate to cruelty. I seems to me that 3 people on here have a lot invested in being able to misrepresent others as cruel.
Look at Sharon’s comment. If it had been me who misspelled ‘simpsonwood’ then the joke would’ve been on me. It wouldn’t have been offensive and I wouldn’t have used it as an excuse to feign allegations of ableism. I probably just would’ve laughed.
It really is OK to laugh at other people. Its when laughter is without context that it becomes a weapon.
Mr Creosote from Monty Python is hilarious. Should we not laugh as he’s fat? The Ministry of Funny Walks (also Python) is also hilarious. Should we not laugh as it might offend people with odd gaits?
Screw that. I’m going to start handing out ladders in a minute as there’s more than a few people who need to get over themselves.
Kevin,
Your comments to Larry here are unappropriate.
Autistc bloggers on the autism hub. Don’t let Kevin bully Larry! He is your peer. Tell Kevin Enough! This hub is nothing without your POV! Don’t sit back and let another peer be bullied! Especially by a parent of an autistic child!!
Parent bloggers on the autism hub… Don’t be hypocrites. Don’t blog about bullying (Autism vox) and sit back and read Kevin’s attacking Larry. Someday it’s going to be your kid. And if you don’t do nothing, zippo, nil, nada…don’t expect the citzenry to go out on a limb for your child.
Join me and telling him Stop!
Enough!
Know when someone has crossed the line to decency and do something.
OMG. This is over the top. C’mon, people.
If Larry is so pissed off at Kev, he doesn’t have to come here and read the blog, period. He keeps coming back solely to bait Kev and then whines about it later. Furthermore, if Larry is so “over” being a part of the Hub, all he has to do is start a new blog and migrate his posts and the association has ended. Redirecting is not that big a deal. *insert eyeroll here*
I cracked up when I saw the pic of the 3 grandpas with their dorky white socks and misspelled sign. Why? Because I found it amusing. No deeper meaning or hidden agendas–it just struck me as funny. Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Donna – I’ll do what I want on my own blog. Don’t like it? Don’t read it.
Kevin,
As I am not a regularly contributing visitor here and you and I have not been in touch in more than a year, I am hesitant to insert myself into this, but at this point, I think that Donna is right. Something should be said.
I have not followed this conflict, and I don’t know how this started, but nothing justifies that level of cruelty to someone.
You have always had a bite to your writing, but you were never vicious like this. What has changed?
Respectfully, enough is enough. If not for Larry and whoever else raises your ire, then for yourself. If that comment was on another board and signed John Best Jr., you would harshly criticize him for such actions.
Again, I know this is not my community, and I don’t want to appear as if I am rushing in and making harsh moral judgments on a conflict I know little about, but this last comment is just so destructive to everyone involved.
I hope that I have not overstepped my bounds.
Ginger
Kev,,,
I just thought of a brillant idea,, or maybe not so brillant depending on how its recieved..
I noticed you had some other kind of fourm set up to get some dialogue on what neurodiversity is or means or something.
Maybe a better place to have a reasonable discussion on these issues and how people want to see this hub as a whole seen in the publics eye would be better discussed on neutral grounds instead of your personal Blog..
Just some thoughts..
V.
Kev, first I don’t post what I am posting because of Larry. He didn’t enter my mind.
Second, your comment to me about needing to get “over myself” is inapproriate, rude, and offensive. I demand an appology. It’s very possible for me to feel the way I do without it having been an “ego” thing.
As for “telling people” what is okay to laugh at, laugh at it if you want. You ARE being offensive though, and I will not be told to not honor my convictions. You are acting like a schoolyard bully who, when questioned about teasing, says, “But it was funny and he deserved it.”
I like you, I respect the work you’ve done in the past (but NOT your response to this mess), and hope that the change I’m seeing in you is temporary. I’m also shocked that you see me as an enemy in this whole mess. You are making a statement about my motivations which simply is not supported by evidence.
As Treebeard said, “I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side.” So you might be careful classifying me as “with Larry” in this matter.
And likewise with the Treebeard stuff. I actually don’t see anything wrong with the initial response of laughing at it, I see something wrong with mocking people’s intelligence based on it and urging others to do same.
Someone explained to me some reasons it could be funny besides the insulting ones, and I can see some of those now. I personally find the second picture a lot funnier nonetheless. And I don’t agree with the comments about intelligence and such, which are what initially prompted me to respond, the idea that misspelling makes someone unintelligent and that being unintelligent makes a person a legitimate target of mockery.
So my reasons may not be Joel’s reasons or Larry’s reasons and I am not part of some monolithic entity that is Amanda-Joel-Larry who all have something against you personally. You’re someone I respect, you’re someone I thought was a friend, and I agree with Joel that you’ve changed. And among other things become unable to recognize your friends. I also hope this is temporary because I want to go on being your friend.
That you would actually think this is about our egos shows there are inaccuracies creeping into your perceptions of people’s character at the moment. I am, like Joel, shocked you’d see me as an enemy just because I didn’t agree with you over something like this. If I started seeing my friends as enemies or just invested in finding things wrong, every time they told me they didn’t like something I was doing (and even used some pretty strong characterizations of what I was doing), then I wouldn’t have any friends left.
Joseph: I agree some people will take advantage of this sort of thing.
I wouldn’t accuse Donna of doing so, because I don’t know her motivations, but I don’t think it was a good idea to make it sound like a big us-vs-them or let’s-all-attack-Kev thing.
her motivations, but I don’t think it was a good idea to make it sound like a big us-vs-them or let’s-all-attack-Kev thing.
Cyber bullying!
As a parent who is against bullying to ANYBODY, and after having read thru autism listservs about being the target of bullying the last couple of years…
I am not going to let anybody off the hook when they bully, nor let the spectators who read the bullying, be unaware that bullying is taking place in their backyard (here) and especially when they blog about it!
Ignoring bullying doesn’t make it go away!
Call it what it is!
Joel – I didn’t direct any comment towards you whatsoever. If you took it that way, that’s your problem. You can demand away, you’ll be getting no apology from me.
As far as I’m concerned there’s no mess here at all. There’s a set of _consequences_ that result from the way that people are treated. Beyond that, read into anything that you like whatever you like.
In case, people didn’t get it the first time I’m going to say it again: I made a mistake awhile ago that the opinions of a few autistic people comprised the whole. They don’t. That was my sole act of bigotry. Generalisation.
I’ve always said on this blog that I will treat people in the way I am treated. Larry repeatedly comes onto this blog and treated it (and me) with a lack of respect. I will respond in kind. The fact that he autistic is irrelevant. Just like the fact that Cho might’ve been autistic. Actions matter. They have consequences. Here are Larry’s.
You can approve of them or disapprove of them. I don’t care. What I will no longer tolerate is being told how I _should_ be feeling. If you personally find that offensive Joel then I’m really sorry but that is your issue to deal with. Again, that has nothing to do with the fact you’re autistic and everything to do with the fact that we’re both individuals.
I am beginning to wonder whether diversity is really what some people want. It seems to me that what some people really want is a free pass for their opinions as long as they’re ‘making a point’ and the same freedom to lambast anyone else who’s opinions differ from theirs. Cool, go ahead. But count me out. I’ve had it.
_”I have not followed this conflict, and I don’t know how this started, but nothing justifies that level of cruelty to someone.”_
You’re right Ginger, you’ve not followed this conflict.
_”You have always had a bite to your writing, but you were never vicious like this. What has changed?”_
Me. I’ve changed.
_”Respectfully, enough is enough. If not for Larry and whoever else raises your ire, then for yourself. If that comment was on another board and signed John Best Jr., you would harshly criticize him for such actions.”_
Respectfully, that’s rubbish. John would attack Larry (or whomever) because they were autistic. That’s his MO. That’s why his blog is called ‘hating autism’. I won’t ever attack Larry or any other autistic person because they’re autistic. However, neither will I accept the fact of their autism as a ‘free pass’ that when they behave badly they can get away with it. I might well have done once but not any more. That’s just as bigoted as anything John would say or do and frankly I’ve had the experience of being Larry’s punching bag once and this time and for all times from now on, I will fight back. Hard.
Kevin, Larry, et al.:
As a non-NT and parent of an autistic child, I have always believed and continue to believe that you guys put yourselves out there in the blogosphere for various reasons, some noble and some not, because we human beings always have mixed motives. Your noble reasons are all that matter to me. You each have valuable insight into issues that matter more to me than anything else in my life. You (and others) guide me away from misconception and quackery. Thank you for that.
We all have egos. Friends and colleagues fight sometimes. You’re all extremely intelligent. You all argue breathtakingly. But please, please, please, keep your eyes on the overarching principles of guidance and wisdom that your blogs offer.
Irtiam
Kevin: Who are the “three” people who need ladders to get over themselves? Was I wrong in assuming I was one of the three?
First, to the picture – I have to admit that my ability to pick out crayon misspellings is so poor that I didn’t spot it until someone else pointed it out. It’s funny, but only in the sense of watching someone take a pratfall. It’s a grade-school level of humor, but I still smiled.
As for it being cruel or unfair to poke fun at the Simpsonwood (I checked the spelling on that word THREE times) Rally – these people are begging to be ridiculed! People who see this as an attack on neurodiversity (!!???!!) are, I suspect, transferring other issues of their own onto this one.
To Mr. Mancino and anyone else who still thinks that the Simpsonwood meeting was a “secret” meeting where dark “truths” were revealed: Get over it!
The transcript – which I have read cover-to-cover – is 258 pages. It contains five or six “juicy bits” where people say things that – taken out of context – sound pretty damning. However, when they are read in the context of a multi-day meeting where people were discussing what was – at the time – a topic without a lot of data, the “juicy bits” look a lot less “juicy”.
It’s a lot like the folks who – like Nostradamus – find “prophecies” about modern times in the Bible. If you look hard enough and are willing to take things out of context, then you can “support” any story you wish to concoct.
It seems that we get people drifting in from time to time who have just been “introduced” to the wacky world of autism conspiracy theory and are all hot to take on the “skeptics and doubters”. It’s pretty heady stuff, but it leaves a bad hangover if you don’t take it easy. Cool down, have a cup of tea, and think it over – you’ll save yourself a lot of embarassment later.
Prometheus
Looks like I asked the wrong question, when I re-read your comments. You said:
“Funny does not automatically equate to cruelty. I seems to me that 3 people on here have a lot invested in being able to misrepresent others as cruel.”
Who are those 3 people?
Also, who are the more than a few people you want to hand out ladders to?
You’re making an accusation. It’s time to put up and give us details.
But I don’t _have_ to Joel – didn’t you know? Its OK to say anything you want to about anybody! After all underneath it all I had a point and as we all know that excuses anything.
I think you’re arguing with someone else. But if you don’t want to get along with me, I don’t see anything else I can do to rectify the situation. I’m sorry it’s come to this – I still have a lot of respect for things you’ve done in the past and I always thought we were generally on the same side. Apparently you don’t see it that way.
Its OK to say anything you want to about anybody! After all underneath it all I had a point and as we all know that excuses anything.
It’s okay to disagree with somebody on a topic. What is reprehensible is to attack the person and not the issue you disagreed upon! You crossed a line above.
And a lot of the people reading this…let you do it! And said NADA.
And that folks, is how a bully gets away with it! By your silence and being afraid to take a position! Shame on you!