Polly Tommey Woo-ing Gordon Brown

15 Apr

Polly Tommey was due to see Prime Minister Gordon Brown today after a successful billboard campaign, costing a reported £500,000, that invited Gordon Brown to meet with her if he wanted to save £508 million pounds. Ms. Tommey’s son is autistic and she is concerned that there is a terrible fall off in provision and support when you transition from school to adult services. She wants the government to invest in autistic people and her message is that appropriate support will save the government money by lifting autistic people out of benefits and into paid employment. As she says in her press release:

“We want better support, we want politicians to engage with us and we want the acknowledgement and support that our children deserve as fully contributing members of society.”

This is all very admirable. But Dr Michael Fitzpatrick has written An Open Letter to Gordon Brown in which he questions how she expects to achieve her aim.

In her campaign posters, Mrs Tommey, whose 12-year-old son Billy is autistic, offers to save the UK government £500 million a year by helping people with autism to get jobs. But it is not clear from the posters how she thinks this can be achieved. However, The Autism File, the magazine she edits, focuses on two issues: supporting the campaign led by the former Royal Free Hospital researcher Andrew Wakefield against the MMR vaccine and promoting ‘unorthodox biomedical’ treatments for children with autism.

The main point that Dr Fitzpatrick makes is that if her message to the prime minister is the same as the one she promotes in The Autism File she would be well advised to think again. He ends thus:

If she wants better provision of diagnostic, supportive and educational services, she might consider adding her energies to the long-running campaigns of the National Autistic Society and others, currently focused on the Autism Bill.

Ms Tommey’s supporters have been quick to respond. At The Age of Autism, Teri Arranga accuses Dr Fitzpatrick of carrying out an inquisition against the Autism Trust and quotes Trust Chairman. Oliver Jones who responded to Dr Fitzpatrick as follows:

I am both shocked and astounded having read your open letter on the Internet this afternoon. How dare you act in such an ill informed manner about a campaign that I and many others have invested significant time and effort in – when you evidently have no idea about what we are actually focused upon.
I find it remarkable that a professional person can take such an aggressive stance as you have done about The Autism Trust’s campaign without having the decency or following proper protocol by making contact with any of the Trustees and specifically myself to determine the objectives and intent of our forthcoming meetings.

The tone of the article is plain. The Autism Trust is trying to improve services and quality of life for autistic people in the UK and Dr Fitzpatrick is misrepresenting their aims and undermining their efforts because he resents Ms Tommey’s support for biomedical interventions. Having read the Autism Trust’s lengthy press release I agree with Dr Fitzpatrick.

“A Personal Campaign”

The press release is clear that this is Ms Tommey’s “personal campaign.” She wishes to speak to Gordon Brown “on behalf of the thousands of mothers of children with autism in the UK.” It repeats that this is “Her campaign” and highlights her role as Editor-in-Chief of The Autism File.

Credibility

Ms Tommey obviously has a lot of business acumen and is an astute campaigner who is adept at using the media to position herself “as one of the leading figures in autism in the UK.” But, as Dr Fitzpatrick points out, her support for discredited notions about MMR and autism and her promotion of unproven treatments do call her credibility into question. This is underlined by errors in the press release. Ms Tommey claims that:

autism numbers have increased dramatically in the last twenty years from 1 in 10,000 in 1988 to 1 in 100 today.

As long ago as 1966 Lotter established a figure of 4 in 10000 for severely autistic children. When Wing and Gould examined the broader autistic spectrum in 1979 they found 20 in 10000. The present figure of 100 in 10000 includes people without significant cognitive impairments who were only added to the diagnostic criteria in 1994.

But Ms Tommey uses these false figures to argue that we face a fresh challenge as for the first time a significant number of adults enter the system. This is a direct contradiction of the NAS I Exist campaign which has successfully persuaded the government that generations of autistic adults have been ignored. The NAS is continuously engaged in discussions with government ministers and officials to get a commitment to action based on the provisions of the Autism Bill which enjoys unprecedented support amongst MPs.

Centres of Excellence

The Centres of Excellence proposed by the Autism Trust seek to provide residential communities in rural locations that provide a “safe haven” for autistic adults. They hope that such centres will provide support for autistic adults in the community, setting up in business or becoming self employed. But most people live in urban settings so it hard to envisage how they will benefit. And despite Mr Jones’ protests it is clear that the Autism Trust is as committed as Ms Tommey is to nonsense cures and treatments. Each centre of excellence will feature a wellness centre offering all manner of quackery including homeopathy, chelation and hyperbaric oxygen therapy, as well as training centre and a conference centre promoting these “biomedical interventions.”

I think that Mr Jones’ complaints against Dr Fitzpatrick are disingenuous. If anything Dr Fitzpatrick should be taken to task for failing to mention the Autism Trust in his open letter. At a time when service providers are moving away from the model of self contained autism communities in favour of closer integration of services within everyday society the Autism Trust proposes to build a worldwide network of such communities.

They expect local authorities to fund places in their residential homes while they are free to develop profitable spin offs promoting quackery. Or, as they describe it in their financial model:

The capital development and business operating model will depend on the facility mix and local partners – as well as the engagement and support available from local and national government. A mix of charitable status and commercially self-standing models will be explored in each location.

Danger

The greatest danger is not that Ms Tommey and the Autism Trust are going to persuade the government to follow their lead. But by muddying the waters with their campaign they may give the government an excuse to back pedal on existing commitments while they consult with this self appointed autism constituency. The best way forward is to get behind the NAS campaign and keep up the pressure for the provisions of the autism bill to become law.

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26 Responses to “Polly Tommey Woo-ing Gordon Brown”

  1. sharonfennell April 16, 2009 at 09:53 #

    Good one Mike.

    Polly Tommy says she campaigns “on behalf of the thousands of mothers of children with autism in the UK.”

    She does not represent me. The Autism File is a quack encrusted rag and the Autism Trust will benefit mainly the sCAM therapists they intend to employ in these rural institutions.

    I think that Gordon Brown should avoid meeting her. He has better things to be doing with his time. The NAS is much more representative of autistic people and parents in the UK and they are who the government need to listen to.

    I blogged about their Telegraph article last year.

  2. Martin Matthews January 17, 2010 at 00:13 #

    From a sheer Human Being perspective, Ms. Tommey is personally responsible for positively affecting the lives of THOUSANDS of children around the world – by speaking the truth about autism, the reality that it IS treatable, that plausible healing approached exist, and that children’s health CAN improve.

    For you to ridicule her because you dislike her tactics is really embarrassing.

    Do your research!

    • Sullivan January 18, 2010 at 23:06 #

      Who says that autistics can’t improve (children or otherwise)? Being autistic doesn’t make one impervious to improvement, medical or otherwise.

  3. Mike Stanton January 17, 2010 at 02:37 #

    Martin,
    perhaps you could assist me by pointing out examples Where I ridicule Polly Tommey in my article. Then indicate where I have made errors of fact in my article so that I can correct them. And if you have any data to support your assertion that she is personally responsible for positively affecting thousands of lives, please do share.

  4. Martin Matthews January 17, 2010 at 18:53 #

    Hi Mike…Sure. You wrote…

    “it is clear that the Autism Trust is as committed as Ms Tommey is to nonsense cures and treatments”

    “all manner of quackery including homeopathy, chelation and hyperbaric oxygen therapy, as well as training centre and a conference centre promoting these “biomedical interventions.”

    I’d consider these comments ridicule, i.e. mockery, poking fun at, intention to dissuade reader’s perception of validity/integrity of Ms. Tommey (as a person, and the information she presents).

    Not nice at all.

    Your “errors of fact?” Well, let’s just address this one (which contains three)…

    “Ms Tommey uses these false figures to argue that we face a fresh challenge.”

    You assert 1) she’s using false figures intentionally, 2) the figures are false, 3) there is no “fresh challenge.”

    Have you read the recent and prolific reports from the US Center’s for Disease Control regarding rates of autism? Do you contend that the global autism epidemic poses no new challenges on the “systems” of the planet? What evidence do you have that Ms. Tommey’s intentions are intentionally malicious?

    Regarding her being “personally responsible for positively affecting thousands of lives.” Wow, that’s an easy one. She is “responsible” for the creation of the Autism File publication. Have you read it? Have you read it? Setting aside ALL evaluations or personal opinions of the efficacy of its educational content, it is an unquestionable reality that thousands of parents, doctors, caregivers, educators, therapists, lawmakers, researchers, and others interested in HELPING those with autism and seeking healing focused strategies have READ THE PUBLICATION and gleaned empowering insight that helped guide educated action that has directly aided the improved health and well being of thousands of children worldwide.

    I’d call that “personally responsible.”

    I think more people should be responsible for doing good things in the world – we need more of that – that behavior in people should be reinforced – not ridiculed.

    Thanks for paying attention.

    Martin

  5. Mike Stanton January 17, 2010 at 21:05 #

    Martin,
    you think these statements ridicule Polly Tommey.

    “it is clear that the Autism Trust is as committed as Ms Tommey is to nonsense cures and treatments”

    “all manner of quackery including homeopathy, chelation and hyperbaric oxygen therapy, as well as training centre and a conference centre promoting these “biomedical interventions.”

    I consider them statements of fact. These are quack cures. Ms Tommey does provide support for them via the pages of her magazine. The Autism Trust proposes to promote the same quack treatments at its proposed autism centres.

    Fact or fiction?

    Your “errors of fact?” Well, let’s just address this one (which contains three)…

    “Ms Tommey uses these false figures to argue that we face a fresh challenge.”

    You assert 1) she’s using false figures intentionally, 2) the figures are false, 3) there is no “fresh challenge.”

    I argue that the figures that she is using are false. Again that is a matter of fact. European studies in 1979 (Wing and Gould) and 1986 (Gillberg et al) confirmed prevalence of 20 in 10000 for children in receipt of special education. In 1993 Ehlers and Gillberg published a study on the prevalence of autism in school pupils in mainstream education that offered a figure of 71 in 10000. Combining the two gives a figure of 91 in 10000 which is not so far off todays estimates of 1 in a 100. If there is a fresh challenge it comes from acknowledging the needs of generations of autistic adults who were previously ignored.

    I do not offer an opinion about whether she knows her figures are false. But her husband, Jonathon Tommey ought to. He was present when I delivered a talk at Regents College in London in 2001 where I said,

    Knowledge and understanding of autism has been transformed over the years. It has moved from being a narrowly defined condition (Kanner 1943) with a prevalence of 4.5 per 10000 (Lotter 1966) to a very pervasive developmental disorder which the National Autistic Society (NAS) today estimates has a possible prevalence of 91 per 10000. This figure is the subject of debate. (Fombonne 1997) But the number of cases is increasing. More parents are asking, “Could this be autism?” and often the answer is, “Yes.”

    As well an increase in numbers we have seen a broadening of the definition of autism. In particular, the rediscovery of the work of Hans Asperger and the integration of his syndrome within the autistic spectrum (Frith 1991) means that clinicians now encounter patients with a very wide range of disabilities and abilities when diagnosing and treating autism.

    I know he was listening because he came up and congratulated me afterwards.

    You ask

    What evidence do you have that Ms. Tommey’s intentions are intentionally malicious?

    None. I do not believe that she is being intentionally malicious. I believe she is wrong about autism and I offer my reasons. It is possible to argue your differences without personally maligning your opponent and that is what I try to do.

    Your testimonial to the good that Polly Tommey does via the Autism File is not real evidence. You are vice president of Nourishing Hope, a partner organization of the Autism File. Isn’t that an undeclared conflict of interest?

    But if she is personally responsible for the consequences of reading and believing what is written there, she has done a lot of harm – promoting nonsense like homeopathy, defending Wakefield and encouraging people not to vaccinate. The next time a child falls ill with a vaccine preventable disease is she going to stand up and say, “I did that that!”

    Ehlers, S. & Gillberg, C. (1993): The Epidemiology of
    Asperger syndrome. A total population study. Journal of
    Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 34 (8), pp. 1327-1350

    Gillberg, C., Grufman, M., Persson, E. & Themner, U.
    (1986): Psychiatric disorders in mildly and severely mentally
    retarded urban children and adolescents: epidemiological
    aspects. British Journal of Psychiatry, 149, pp. 68-74.

    Wing, L. & Gould, J. (1979): Severe impairments of social
    interaction and associated abnormalities in children:
    epidemiology and classification. Journal of Autism &
    Developmental Disorders, 9, pp. 11-29.

    Edited to tidy up the html tags and add the references in the quote from my talk.

    Fombonne, E. (1997) ‘Prevalence of Autistic Spectrum Disorder in the UK.’ Autism, the International Journal of Research and Practice. 1, pp 227-229

    Frith, U. (ed) (1991) Autism and Asperger Syndrome. Cambridge University Press

    Kanner, L. (1943) ‘Autistic Disturbances of Affective Contact.’ Nervous Child 2, pp 217 – 250

    Lotter, V. (1966) ‘Epidemiology of autistic conditions in young children, I. Prevalence.’ Social Psychiatry, 1, pp 124-137

  6. Visitor January 18, 2010 at 08:34 #

    I think Polly Tommey sees autism as a cash crop.

  7. Robert Rampson January 18, 2010 at 08:50 #

    Martin is right. By having the courage to print all sorts of different views – inbcluding Dr Wakefield’s – Ms Tommey has made the Autism File a beacon of free speeach. In Britain, the Establishment led by the Department of Health has requested editors and producers in all media to avoid the MMR controversy and if mentioning Dr Wakefield to precede his name with the words ‘now discredited’. This sort of censorship would never be tolerated in the US. (Thank God for the Land of the Free).

    Ms Tommey is a helper and many thousands of people are grateful.

    Finally, can we stop referring to non-chemical, non-pharmaceutical treatments as ‘quack’?

  8. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. January 18, 2010 at 13:45 #

    “Finally, can we stop referring to non-chemical, non-pharmaceutical treatments as ‘quack’?”

    If they’re not supported by evidence, then the short answer is ‘No!’ (and, in the words of Stephen Fry, the long answer is ‘Fuck, no!’).

  9. Mike Stanton January 18, 2010 at 22:05 #

    I suppose that excluding water and oxygen as chemicals would qualify HBOT for autism and homeopathy as non-chemical and non-pharmaceutical but they would still be quackery.

    As for the rest – chelation agents, anti-oxidants, mega doses of vitamins, secretin, Lupron, various enzymes and supplements, anti-fungals, MB12 injections. These are all chemicals and some of them are pharmaceuticals.

  10. David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. January 19, 2010 at 03:55 #

    “(Thank God for the Land of the Free).”

    I wonder if Zakh Price feels that that’s what America is just now… because – judging by what’s happening to him – it bloody-well isn’t that!

  11. Visitor January 19, 2010 at 08:37 #

    I suspect that the Tommeys have some kind of deal by which they hope Thoughtful House will pass them UK clients. I’m afraid it’s the same old story: when families get onto the quack networks, they are passed around from the chelators to the vitamin peddlers to the dietary advisors to the book publishers to the magazine publishers to the diagnostic labs and to the endoscopists.

    Everybody gets a dip into their pockets.

  12. Martin Matthews January 19, 2010 at 09:08 #

    Mike,

    It’s tough to communicate with those who insist on denying reality. Who are you to discount the validity of my experience? Who are you to discount the validity of the experiences of thousand of people? My testimonial, and that of so many others IS evidence. It’s easy to be dogmatic about the data you’ll consider when only the Left side of the brain is being used. Using Left and Right infers an integration of “all that is” to comprise one’s perspective. Yours is apparently skewed – swayed away from wholeism – i.e., not seeing the big picture.

    I’ve got to ask… What’s your take on food? Do you believe that diet affects those with autism? Do you condone a general, random regime of food intake for children with autism, or a calculated nutrition centered approach that’s attentive to quality?

    Kindly avoid fluff assertions, no one’s alleging that diet “cures” autism – I’ve never seen anyone who has. Nor, is anyone alleging that diet/food “causes” autism. The diet for autism matter is simply “does food matter?” Or is it just more quackery to you?

  13. dr treg January 19, 2010 at 12:42 #

    “Finally, can we stop referring to non-chemical, non-pharmaceutical treatments as ‘quack’?”
    If they’re not supported by evidence, then the short answer is ‘No!’ (and, in the words of Stephen Fry, the long answer is ‘F**k, no!’).”

    It is interesting that sometimes medicine lags behind or doesnt pick up on simple observations which would have led to earlier advances in medicine e.g. a person with acne who noted that his dyspepsia improved with the antibiotics used for acne in the 1970`s. Dyspepsia at that time was thught to be a stress-related disease. Antibiotics are now standard treatment for peptic ulcer which is now regarded as an infectious disease.
    I wouldnt be too dismissive until suitably large double-blind randomly controlled trials have been performed – which wont happen due to lack of funds.

  14. Robert Rampson January 19, 2010 at 16:42 #

    Diet and some supplements certainly helped my autistic grandson. He suffered from agonising gut pain and diarrhea (pure coincidence, of course, that so many autistic children suffer this) and through care over his food intake plus some natural supplements the pain and diarrhea eventually disappeared. Anytime he left the diet the symptoms returned. It had no effect on his autism, other than his languuage and other skills improved once he was no longer in pain.

  15. Dedj January 19, 2010 at 17:05 #

    “My testimonial, and that of so many others IS evidence.”

    All it is evidence for, is that it’s a testimonial.

    It is not evidence that the processes you THINK are involved actually were.

    Mike asked you for evidence. You best present some.

  16. Martin Matthews January 19, 2010 at 18:42 #

    “You best present some?” Is this the wild west?

    ev?i?dence
    1) that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
    2) something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:

    tes·ti·mo·ni·al (t?s’t?-m?’n?-?l)
    1) A statement in support of a particular truth, fact, or claim.

    Have you watched this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqiyND3RLW4

    Are you or anyone able to DISprove the causal relationship between Ms. Tommey’s intentions/actions and the positive effect on mothers and children around the world?

    Let’s not nit pick about linguistics while real world solutions remain at arm’s length.

    Hey Dedj…what do you mean by “It is not evidence that the processes you THINK are involved actually were” ?

    Let me take a stab…are you talking about the placebo effect? Are you saying… “that if you THINK something’s going to happen, and it DOES, you can’t say you’re thinking caused it to happen” Is that what you mean?

    No one says that thinking is causally related to outcomes, however, intention is, and positive thinking stems from intention, and positive intention is never not worthwhile.

    Such nonsense is used to discount the validity of parents personal experiences, their own scientifically valid observations of actions and outcomes – that’s insulting.

    These “arguments” are really embarrassing. People are just trying to help themselves, and be helpful to others. What I keep reading here is “don’t bother trying,” “don’t believe that healthier is possible.” That’s depressing, not accurate, and contrary to human instinctual behavior of growth, healing – life itself.

    Enough of this.

  17. Robert Rampson January 19, 2010 at 18:43 #

    Testimony is evidence. In law courts, and in real life.

  18. Martin Matthews January 19, 2010 at 18:51 #

    It is sad that you put so much energy into discounting the validity of something so overwhelmingly evident. If the Left Brain alone ran the world, we’d all be in big trouble. Courts are not real life, they are courts. People are real life, people’s experiences are real life – that’s where the goodness is. Again, it’s sad that people (at least on this website anyway) refuse to absorb this. 🙂

  19. Dedj January 19, 2010 at 19:20 #

    “Let me take a stab…are you talking about the placebo effect?”

    Not even remotely close. The second statement is so far departed from what can be reasonably inferred from what I wrote, I had to take time to work out if you were being serious.

    You have no right to demand that we must accept your conclusions as valid merely on the basis that you percieve your observations as valid.

    Testimony is one thing. It’s not in and as of itself evidence that what you ‘testify’ happened is what actually happened.

    That you cannot understand this distinction does not speak well for your ability to appropriately understand this conversation.

    You can claim what you want. But you can’t use the fact that you are making that claim as the evidence for it.

    Please endevour to post coherently and on topic next time, thank you. I for one am not willing to spend any more time having to trawl through your gawd-awful half-cocked posts.

  20. Martin Matthews January 19, 2010 at 19:41 #

    Yeah yeah… sorry if I misread that and you were offended. All else is clear.

  21. Dedj January 19, 2010 at 21:12 #

    I wasn’t offended, it was because your post had little to no internal structure or logical relationship to the contents of my post.

    You were so far off base that it was difficult to work out what you thought you were getting at.

    Funnily enough, you’ve actually done it again, although I was expecting yet another high volume low content response. Nothing else is clear. That was the point.

    Stop expecting people to take you as correct without evidence. Do not demand that we do not question your assertions. You are as fallible as the rest of us. To demand that you be beyond question is sheer arrogance.

  22. Mike Stanton January 19, 2010 at 23:04 #

    Martin,

    you concur with Ms Tommey’s beliefs about autism and assert that she is positively affecting the lives of autistic children. Because I do not concur I challenge that assertion. Are the ideas espoused in the Autism File right or wrong. Where is the evidence? The testimonial of a business associate of Ms Tommey’s whose company contributes articles to the Autism File and profits from selling to people who read and believe the Autism File is not enough to change my mind.

    You ask about food. I refer you to the recent report in Pediatrics One of the problems with getting clinicians to take GI problems seriously has been the association with unproven theories of autism to do with opioid excess or autistic enterocolitis that are promoted in the Autism File. The strength of this report is that it takes GI issues seriously while honestly appraising the evidence within the framework of mainstream science and medicine. It offers support for the position that medical problems in the autistic population should be treated with the same degree of care as in the neurotypical population. It is particularly good at warning clinicians that behavioural problems and sleep issues in non-verbal autistics may be a sign of medical problems and that these should be investigated thoroughly and not dismissed as behavioural manifestations of autism.

    Here is its list of conclusions.

    1. Individuals with ASDs whose families report gastrointestinal symptoms warrant a thorough gastrointestinal evaluation.

    2. All of the common gastrointestinal conditions encountered by individuals with typical neurologic development are also present in individuals with ASDs.

    3. The communication impairments characteristic of ASDs may lead to unusual presentations of gastrointestinal disorders, including sleep disturbances and problem behaviors.

    4. Caregivers and health care professionals should be alert to the presentation of atypical signs of common gastrointestinal disorders in patients with ASDs.

    5. If a person with an ASD is on a restricted diet, professional supervision can help to identify and treat nutritional inadequacy.

    6. Integrating behavioral and biomedical approaches can be advantageous in conceptualizing the role of pain as a setting event for problem behavior, facilitating diagnosis, and addressing residual pain symptoms to enhance quality of life.

    7. Genetic assays should be included as part of the data to be collected in research protocols.

    8. At present, there are inadequate data to establish a causal role for intestinal inflammation, increased intestinal permeability, immunologic abnormalities, or food allergies in ASDs.

  23. Emily Malabey February 25, 2010 at 00:13 #

    I have written an open letter to Ms. Tommey in the past regarding her editorials on the subject of autism.
    Right now, I would like to encourage everyone here to join our international coalition which is striving to directly and immediately support those on the Autism Spectrum and their families. There is a case now in the US regarding the use of restraints and isolation for children on the spectrum and I encourage everyone to get involved in these issues immediately. As we all know, there is no known cure or cause for Autism. Many groups are spending millions on research. Meanwhile children and adults living with autism the world over are still neglected by society, abused and discriminated against and it is my mission and ICAA’s mission to change that. Millions of people worldwide are on the autism spectrum and the numbers are consistently increasing. What are WE doing NOW to help these people and their families? Let’s get to work together. Together we can change the world.

  24. Janice William April 8, 2010 at 16:39 #

    WELL DONE MIKE!

    I am autistic and I have a university qualification in Autism.

    Polly Wrongie Tommy DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ME.

    Is she autistic? If the answer is NO, then she should shut up and allow AUTISTICS to speak for ourselves. We are quite able you know.

    Just because I am autistic it does not mean I am not articulate and intelligent. Autism is NOT INTELLECTUAL impairement. I live and breathe the spectrum as do ALL my children…we KNOW what we want and we don’t want HER talking for us. Simple as.

    All the work that the NAS did? Then she takes credit…

    In MY opinion Polly Tommy is attention seeking, inappropriate, overwhelming and manipulative, possibly seeing this mission as a cash cow. Oops maybe she should look at DSM1V? Just a thought.

    I have informed the PM of my thoughts as I am a person with Autism as they like to call us in academic papers.

    Take a running jump Polly, go find another cause to champion and leave Autism to the AUTISTICS! Please

    Keep up the good work Mike….Andrew Wakefield…phah, he calls himself a DOCTOR? As a member of the medical profession I am disgusted. Maybe he should check out DSM1V to, Oppositional Defiance Disorder is ringing a few bells …anyone else agree? Like I it is just my humble opinion, thank you for allowing me to voice it here.

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