Truth and Consequences – The Anti-Vaccination Movement Exacts a Price

518 Responses to “Truth and Consequences – The Anti-Vaccination Movement Exacts a Price”

1. christel king September 25, 2009 at 03:36 #

   how does attacking AoA play in here??? no one here is representing them! we are here as parents representing our kids, and other mothers and kids choosing to help there kids where no other help has been offered or where that help has hurt there kids. medical oaths broken on do no harm!

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2. Chris September 25, 2009 at 08:28 #

   Christel King:

   David you must be uneducated on chelation then! it’s used all the time for people who are metal posiened! not at all abuse.

   How are they shown to have heavy metal poisoning? What metals? Aluminum is not a heavy metal (at least on this planet). Also the MMR has never contained neither thimerosal nor aluminum. Also, no pediatric vaccine after the year 2002… and even before is was in too small a dose to be an issue.

   You continue:

   lupron a med used for hormon issues.

   Again, who decides? Did you know there is a group of adults on the internet who feel they have been harmed by this drug? What makes Lupron safer than the DTaP, MMR, or the Hib vaccines (which have all been tested)?

   Please provide the scientific documentation showing that Lupron is safe and required for autistic children (one caveat, nothing authored by either Geier).

   And as I asked before: What are the relative risks between the MMR vaccine versus getting measles, mumps and rubella? Please provide documentation with real science. Thank you.

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3. David N. Brown September 25, 2009 at 09:26 #

   Christel,
   I have a bachelor’s degree in geology, and picked up plenty of chemistry and biology. In my opinion, the only connection likely to exist between heavy metal pollution and autism is that autistics in more polluted environments will suffer more stress (including health problems). Until recently, I took a relatively benign view of chelation, as something that could prevent accumulation of metals. I changed my mind when I found a study showing that, when administered to animals without serious pre-existing levels of heavy metals, chelators can produce the same long-term symptoms as actual heavy metal poisoning. If you really want to know what I have to say about all this, go to my site.

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4. christel king September 25, 2009 at 13:17 #

   david I have no interest in your blog but thanks for posting it. you miss the point with chelation, parents aren’t just going and doing it with out cause. have you seen the stats on it helping, verses causeing regression, verses nothing???? it has the highest success rate of all treatments for gains for autism! which says something. parents are doing metals testing PRIOR to doing it. dr’s would be legally bound to be responcible if something went wrong and NOT doing that and being that most chelators are scripts they have to have record for use cause. insurences don’t cover with out that either. which believe it or not many of these kids are having it covered that way.

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5. Kwombles September 25, 2009 at 13:31 #

   “medical oaths broken on do no harm!” So says Christel. And yet she defends the doctors who give lupron, a chemical castration drgu, and who give chelation where no heavy metal toxicity exists. She defends all those other woo treatments with real potential to harm the child, both physically and psychologically. Because these particular doctors since they are trying to help the children, these are good doctors and the meds they peddle are good meds. Magically, the vaccines and those doctors who give them are bad doctors. But these doctors who help are good doctors.

   No, the good doctor is the one who tells a parent what evidenced based medicine has to say based on sound science. The good doctor says no to nicotine patches. To IVIG. To HBOT. To lupron. Who says there is no evidence (and there is not) to suggest that any of these helps autistic children.

   The more you try to defend these actions, the less reasonable the actions appear. I have no doubt these parents love their children. Love doesn’t mean they make sound decisions regarding the care of the child. And if you think that going down every single woo trail will win you the prize of loving your child more than parents who rely on sound science and hard one-on-one intervention, you’re wrong. It will certainly win you the martyr prize and probably some therapy for your child when they are older.

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6. christel king September 25, 2009 at 13:36 #

   david aluminium is a metal that causes mental issues as well. it’s being looked at and has been for a while in alzheimers which in the biomed group is often running in families as seen as a suseptable issue geneticly that goes hand in hand. infact if you look at the regression with alzhiemers and autism they are SOOO similiar, espeically to thoser with regressive autism and in our community is seen as the same thing. just late onset autism from a build up of metals and a shutting down body loosing it’s ability to detox them.

   you will need to do way more research I am sorry to say as well on vaccinations. kids get way more vaccinations then just the MMR these days, no one has claimed that MMR has metals in it. you are talking to an educated mom here. MMR is a live virus and has no perservitives I am aware of that. but many of the others do. my son was born in 2001. he receieved over 4 shots with mercury in them. you can acutally look up your childs records online with lot numbers and companies and find out exactly how much was in them. mercury has never been mandated to take out. still to this day isn’t. it was a RECOMMENDATION but never required. today vacciantions STILL have mercury in them. tetnus shot, the flu shot to name a few. those that were made also still sat on the shelves to be used and were not thrown out even when the recommendation was given as money would be out the door for dr’s. there was no recall or swap out program as would have been nice. my son in 2003 still got vaccinations with merucry in them, shortly there after the flu shots were pushed like crazy for kids. when mercury was taken out volenterily by a few places they were THEN replaced with aluminium missing the whole point of parents like us asking for a change.

   as for testing there are a few times that dr’s do. you can not do blood testing as blood testing only shows a small gap window of exposure. so hair testing shows long term exposure and what metals also does to minieral levels as well (as they work on effecting each other) another accepted measure of testing and used more often now is porphyrins (likly spelled this wrong NOT in my giftings cluster) testing. which is a urine based test. this is what most DANs have been urged to use.

   another note is that the dose of merucury in vaccinations that are receieved are not based on weight which is part of how poisening happens and again many of the kids with issues have issues with glutathione problems which is what allows the body to detox. it’s pretty standard now to have kids take tylonal before shots to manage issues after the fact, which shuts down the bodies ability to produce glutathione. this in combo with preset allergies kids are not aware of before hand (something that could be done to perhaps prevent reactions – would be to test for these things before hand or even take out the high allergens in vaccinations) in combo with sick kids already and live viruses and the combo of them all lead to distruction in our kids. i know my son for example had issues with his 6 month shots and his health was already in a spiral. I brought it up as a concern and I was not only brushed off but was ragged on about over reactive and that there was no concern with giving his shots with him being ill. he had already had RSV at that point for 6 months. so his immune system was already shot, then add in tylonal and live virus and allergies it was a recipe for disaster. all info I would have loved to have had before. first time mom and all…..looking at inserts later it actually SAID on the lable NOT to give to sick kids. I was so scared about DOING those shots in my gut I actually refused to sign off on that set. my husband did, I stood outside the room crying. not saying this is every families story but I can see where the suseptability was there for my kid.

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7. christel king September 25, 2009 at 14:19 #

   Kwombles
   you don’t read well. these dr’s ARE testing and treating real medical issues. that is the point. lupron is used in more then casteration and that is NOT what it’s used for in kids you are refering to. they are not on this long term either, they are on it to stop puberty at age 4 or whatever age they are peeking at, which by the way carries great risk to be heading into pubery at that age. cancer risk increases greatly! agression issues as they are not able to manage the hormon surges they have going on in their bodies ect. most kids have issues as teens going through that, now throw in kids who have lang issues, expressive issues, and sensory issues that were never meant to go through this at a young age. kids are developing pubic hair at a young age, breast ect and are tested for testosteron levels, ect. and being found ot be to high thus the treatment, and again taken off at the appropriate age to be going through those changes
   that is what the drug was created for

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8. Kwombles September 25, 2009 at 14:45 #

   Christel,

   None of what you are babbling about has anything to do with autism.

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9. christel king September 25, 2009 at 15:01 #

   Kwombles
   YEAH you finally “GET” it. your right it doesn’t. us parents aren’t treating autism, we are treating the underlying issues that are giving our kids these symptoms that have been group into what we currently call autism! we treat the medical issues and those things are better and those things make those symptoms that are appearing and LOOK like autism disappear, we don’t believe autism is a mental or develpemental issue but rather a body gone haywire with medical issues……and people label that autism…..

   just like dr’s call colic- colic. when it’s a junk title of we don’t know what this is. can be allergies, pain from something else, intollerences, yeast issues, bactieria issues ect…..but it’s never just colic. just like fibro is fibro, it’s we don’t know why you have these symptoms so we will just label it…..auto immune haywire bodies!!!!

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10. christel king September 25, 2009 at 15:59 #

    chris the difference in it is that lupron is not given to everyone! if everyone was given all of “xyz” there is always going to be a group that reacts negitively! that is exactly my groups stance. vaccinations have that sub group of people who are having negitive reactions and end up triggering and switching on a spiral down we label as autism. messing with multisystem damage. so you are right, lupron isn’t for everyone, and not everyone doing biomedical is doing lupron, infact the numbers are very low, and those that are have had hormon testing to show a need for it. again each child is different, each childs medical crash need different. therefore each childs need to “fix” what is not working different, dependend on their “symptoms” that put them on specturm to begin with.

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11. jen September 25, 2009 at 16:29 #

    Guest Blogger, yesterday you asked what I disagree with and what evidence I’m looking for to back up claims. There are several debates going on here. But here is what I disagree with…

    I disagree with you, from a moral standpoint, copying and pasting a mother’s words and then, using that 1, out of many posts by this mother, as an example to say that biomed treatment as a whole is harmful to children or say this child is in a harmful situation because of it. I, personally feel, it would be more moral of you, if you feel the need to lurk on groups and discuss your findings, not to use a mother’s words, or any members words for that matter, and just discuss your own scientific data you collected to back your claim. If you feel like this is a topic of interest and you’d further like to investigate, imo, its would be more ethical of you to make your self known on each group stating…”hey, fyi-by the way, I’ll be reading all your posts and then using your words against you.”

    I do not agree with you that these groups “brainwash” people. I will say that, with every group, there are different personalities and sometimes some are more overbearing with their personality and information then the next. Everyone is different…I don’t live with any of these people, I don’t know what goes on at their home…I can not make an assumption and have no proof if any one person in any of the groups is actually brainwashed or not. But I don’t feel their goal is to brainwash or force parents into doing something they don’t feel comfortable with, these people have more to do with their time. Each group has a ultimate goal, that’s why they were created, to be a resource for their members. That resource is made up of primarily parents who post their frustrations, what worked, what didn’t work, what new products, products they didn’t like, other resources to check out, etc…you get the picture. Again, their ultimate goal is to help in the way they can by sharing their personal experiences and info and it is then up to each individual member of the group to decide if they want to take the info provided and further investigate. Someone mentioned, not sure if its you, that when some members of the group don’t agree with the groups subject matter there is a sort of attack. That may be true but you have to thoroughly understand the dynamics of groups and understand each group has a common “cause” and when people question the “cause” it may irritate because people aren’t forcing any one person to belong to the group…if someone disagrees frustration ensues because the question is why are you here?

    I also disagree that taking just a few of “Mary’s” posts and using as an example to say this one part makes for the whole is a poor way to state your case. I have a feeling you are a man, only because women understand how we communicate and if you were a woman you might not be using “Mary’s” posts. Woman are much more comfortable with speaking their mind. They are much more comfortable with expressing deep feelings with others, even others they don’t know. The suicide rate (successful suicides) is much higher with men then women. A theory, can’t remember if the theory has been proven but, is because society doesn’t frown upon women for being emotional and showing weak moments but the same is opposite for men. My point is, “Mary” is a mom, “Mary” is a woman, “Mary” has no problem with venting and expressing her issues. Many of my posts when I was just starting out with the gfcf diet were hysterical. I sounded like a basket case but over the years I’ve learned and grown by posting and expressing my feelings.

    I also don’t agree with you that those vitamins, supplements, medicines, etc you list are unsafe in the manner they are used. Yes, as someone pointed out, anything in excess is a bad thing whether it be a vitamin or Vikadin (sp?). I always hear Doctors say, when speaking in regards to meds, they feel the pros outweigh the cons and that is the basic justification for using the drug. The same holds true with parents who are trying to recover their child from Autism. The, very slow use, of primarily vitamins, to excrete mercury or lesson the load far outweighs the possible cons. Doctors prescribe medicines like they are handing candy out knowing full-well that their are side effects and have no problem doing so. I’m very surprised anyone has a problem with a parent giving their child vitamins.

    You also say “well, where is the proof?” the administering of vitamins, supplements, and meds is effective in helping a child with their issues. I don’t know if there is documents or studies. But does there really need to be??? You seriously can’t take the word of a TON of parents as proof???

    I do agree with you, their is a risk with this. I will say, I’ve been on these groups when needing help with supplements my son’s doctor wanted him on and did think wow this can be risky and a lot is involved. I do feel parents should consult with a doc who is in the know but do know of parents who have been able to do without the doc. When we saw the MD/DAN! he prescribed a ton of stuff for my son. I researched every supplement he suggested, like GABA for instance, and to me I felt their was too much risk with the GABA and my son was too young so I chose to disregard the docs recommendation. Many of the other supplements prescribed like Vit C, Vit D, etc are relatively safe to try so I did but they made my son worse. When I asked the docs why they said because they were antioxidants and it will get worse before it gets better. But I stopped. Of course I question, would his food allergies and behavior be better had I continued. But for me and my family I felt it was all too risky to try at his age and did notice the back-and-forth parents have on those groups with made me think this was gonna be a long battle. BUT my child does not have Autism. So, for me, it was not worth the risk. BUT if my child did have Autism and I saw it helped for other parents I may re-think those risks. Again, there are risks with everything. If you put your child in a car there is a risk your child could seriously injured in a car accident but yet millions upon millions of us put our child in the car everyday and travel knowing full well there is some sort of risk. So, are they bad parents??? I’m know there is some risk with this type of treatment but there are a TON of parents who did this, who had issues, who overcame the issues, who feel they are willing to take the risks because in the end their child will have a better quality of life. And just because there is no “data” put out for the masses it can’t be completely discounted.

    I can’t disagree or agree with the IV or the chamber. I don’t know much about those types.

    And as far as vaccines. Yes, it is true, I am a anti-vaxer. Why? Because after educating myself I see the risks associated with vaccines are too great and I’m no longer willing to take that chance. Vaccines are not the answer, our bodies natural immune is much more safer of an option. Just like you point out chealtion and diet is not a cure well neither is a vaccine. And as far as the “scientific data” put out for vaccines…I’d like a non-pharma group or a non-governmental group to study the vaccines. A party that has no interest financially or anything else to gain. You talk about corruption among those who give hope to Autistic parents but you see no corruption with pharma companies??????????????????? That really is mind-boggling.

    And as far as vaccines, chemicals, food, and the overall general way developed societies live, those who don’t already, need to take a step back and look at the big picture. They need to understand living like this will ultimately be the killer of our species. Allowing our children to get diseases such as chic pox and measles strengthen our immune systems in the long run and is a good thing, not to be frowned upon. No one claims we will never get sick or that no child will ever die from getting the measles but, again, the big picture needs to be seen. Ever here someone say…”your too smart for your own good”. I think that may be true with those who are pro-vax. You seem like a very intelligent person Guest Blogger but I think you need to think outside of the box and be open to other information. There is an interesting article in regards to those who are pro-vax…”why are smart people so dumb?”

    Reply
12. jen September 25, 2009 at 16:56 #

    Christal that is an awesome point and one I didn’t think to make. What is the definition of Autism? Parents who treat their Autistic child obviously have a different definition of Autism then the next guy who chooses to believe it is a fixed or inherent issue.

    It is also really good of you to use colic as an example of a junk term. These junk terms that the mainstream medical community use when they don’t have a deep understanding as to the why’s and how’s. Kinda like the below article I saw yesterday, 4 babies, who all live very close to one another, who mysteriously died of SIDS. SIDS…junk term for baby who died from a vaccine. In this case, I’m sure these babies had gotten injected with a bad batch and died. But will a study be conducted to prove? Maybe, if so will everyone or even the parents of the dead babies know if it proves to be true that it was the vaccines? Probably not. Why? Because there would too much to loose by both the government and the pharm co. Its bad for their business to disclose the truth and nothing but.
    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/four_infants_in_elizabeth_die.html

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13. jen September 25, 2009 at 17:17 #

    To Chris, a few times you asked about the risks and benefits for the measles vs the vaccine for the measles. Here is a site that may be able to help you.

    http://novaccine.com/
    http://www.novaccine.com/glossary.asp

    This link will direct you to each manufac for the measels vaccine…
    http://www.novaccine.com/specific-vaccines/vaccine.asp?v_id=21
    Some of those provide the actual pkg insert for your viewing pleasure. Such as this…http://www.novaccine.com/pdffiles/mmvax_package_insert.pdf

    As far as how dangerous is it to get the measles…maybe you can find a medical dictionary, one that was published before the vaccine was created. Or try this link…http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/02/measles-the-grim-reality/

    Not sure if I’ve been of help on this for you?? Maybe???

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14. Chris September 25, 2009 at 18:30 #

    Jen, I asked for real scientific evidence. Give me the papers, not a list of websites (oh, yeah… I am sure that a site called “novaccine” is not biased at all!). Something equivalent to these (which show a rate of bad outcome of one out of a thousand for both mumps and measles, and even worse for pregnant women who get rubella):

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
    Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.
    Gindler J, Tinker S, Markowitz L, Atkinson W, Dales L, Papania MJ.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Sep 4.
    MEASLES OUTBREAK IN GERMANY: CLINICAL PRESENTATION AND OUTCOME OF CHILDREN HOSPITALIZED FOR MEASLES IN 2006.
    Arenz S, Fischer R, Wildner M.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Mar;28(3):173-5.
    An office-based prospective study of deafness in mumps.
    Hashimoto H, Fujioka M, Kinumaki H; Kinki Ambulatory Pediatrics Study Group.

    Auris Nasus Larynx. 2005 Jun;32(2):125-8. Epub 2005 Apr 7.
    Epidemiological study of mumps deafness in Japan.
    Kawashima Y, Ihara K, Nakamura M, Nakashima T, Fukuda S, Kitamura K.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Sep;28(9):795-800.
    Rubella Outbreak in the Netherlands, 2004-2005: High Burden of Congenital Infection and Spread to Canada.
    Hahné S, Macey J, van Binnendijk R, Kohl R, Dolman S, van der Veen Y, Tipples G, Ruijs H, Mazzulli T, Timen A, van Loon A, de Melker H.

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.
    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
    Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.

    Now please tell me what the relative risk is from the MMR vaccine versus getting measles, mumps and rubella. You will note from some of the above papers that since Wakefield published his flawed set of twelve case studies in 1998, vaccination with MMR has declined and the diseases themselves have increased.

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    • Sullivan September 25, 2009 at 19:08 #

      Chris,

      One of the links provided by jen was to insidevaccines–which is really a gem of anti-vaccine illogic.

      You gotta love the chuztpah of anyone who, faced with the obvious fact that the measles vaccine has saved millions of lives in the US, can say this:

      The end result of many years of vaccination has been to transform a mild childhood disease that killed one person out of 6,500 into a disease that is almost as deadly as it is in the developing world, where people struggle with hunger and sanitation problems.

      They go with the old addage, if you are going to lie, lie big.

      Reply
15. Chris September 25, 2009 at 18:52 #

    Also, jen, the insidevaccines article is an opinion piece, not a scientific paper. Actually measles was a problem in the 1950s, killing between 300 to 600 people per year (a rate of about 1 death out of 1000 cases, see J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77, which is about the most recent large outbreak where the rate was 1 in 500), and causing many more to become permanently disabled (see Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.).

    If the MMR vaccine is removed from the schedule, those numbers will return (like what happened in Japan, which still does not vaccinate for mumps, so more accurate data on deafness caused by mumps shows it to be one in a thousand).

    Is that acceptable to you?

    Reply
16. christel king September 25, 2009 at 18:53 #

    chris if you keep up on the news you would know that wakefield’s stuff wasn’t flawed and credability has been restored in that situation and the man who published the mess lost his job over the whole thing.

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17. christel king September 25, 2009 at 18:58 #

    chris
    so let me get this, others want us to go to THEIR sites to read THEIR stuff but you won’t read ours….hum I can see we are all going no where fast.

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18. christel king September 25, 2009 at 19:19 #

    see the funny part is you wanna talk about measels and mumps and such like
    they are killers. back then they didn’t have what they have now to fight it
    med wise. were not in the black ages anymore, medicine has advanced alot
    over the years….mumps no big deal. know people who have had it, and you
    wanna know what dr’s said while they had it. ok take them home, they’ll be
    fine. far cry from OH NO YOUR GONNA DIE OR GO DEAF! like the media wants
    you to think is going to happen if you are exposed. and hate to break it
    but vaccinations didn’t wipe out those getting those diseases, massive
    amounts of people GETTING those diseases and building immunity had TONS to
    do with it. if vaccines are the cure all tell me why when there IS an out
    break do those vaccinated out number those that are unvaccinated that catch
    it! blows your therory!

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19. christel king September 25, 2009 at 19:30 #

    ok so I have to laugh reading this, so with your figures you are throwing
    out that would be a 1:1000 in deaths for those exposed, meaning just 300-600
    deaths a year. I can tell you the stats for deaths from vaccinations is at
    least that high as well. my sons lot numbers there were 7 deaths from just
    that one BATCH. and that was just for ONE Of his close to what 30
    recommended vaccinations. and there was certainly more then one batch of
    that type vaccination made and given in a years time. which with the rate
    of those vaccinated be much higher death rates then 300-600 cases! autism
    at 1:100 in some of the latest figures coming out from data results collect
    in 2007 being compiled……I think I will take the first! autism is the
    death of your dreams for your child, and their future. it’s is a HUGE toll
    on all family members involved on a personal, mental, emotional, economic,
    phycological, spiritual, physical ect level. the grieving of the dx with no
    hope is death. higher functioning children perhaps not as much as the hopes
    for a future may lay there but not all kids on spectrum are high
    functioning.

    see this is some of the data families of MINE have been asking for. talk
    about show me the data. VARS was collected for a reason, those stats SHOULD
    be out there, on the death risk, seizer risk ect involved. so I ask you
    vaccination companies where is THAT science data

    Reply
    • Sullivan September 25, 2009 at 19:42 #

      “autism is the death of your dreams for your child,”

      Don’t speak for me. Don’t speak for my child. Ever.

      I dream. My child dreams. Right now I am dreaming of a world where the biggest obstacle to my child’s dignity doesn’t come in the form of autism parents.

      Reply
    • Sullivan September 25, 2009 at 20:12 #

      cristel king:

      autism is the death of your dreams for your child, and their future. it’s is a HUGE toll on all family members involved on a personal, mental, emotional, economic, phycological, spiritual, physical ect level. the grieving of the dx with no hope is death.

      I see you echoing the sentiments of the “I am autism” video. You discuss the “toll” autism has had on you.

      I don’t have the answers. But I am prompted to say this:

      Putting my child first was possibly the biggest step in my journey. That one change helped me more than I can say.

      I wish you well in your journey.

      Reply
20. jen September 25, 2009 at 19:40 #

    Chris, I don’t have the time at this moment to look thru all the articles you posted…maybe providing me links to them would be helpful but I did look at the last one you posted…that verbiage from the abstract in regards to measles…

    “Measles

    As part of the National Immunization Program, the CDC posts the number of reported cases of measles from 1950 through 1998.37 However, widespread underreporting was likely before 1963, when nearly every child in the United States had contracted measles. Therefore, we assumed that every child in the birth cohorts of 1950 and 1960 had measles before age 10 years38; for 1970 through 1998, we used the CDC reports of the incidence of measles.

    Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis.36, 39 Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR.39 We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR.

    Several effective vaccines against measles were licensed in 1963, and by 1968, the Moraten strain emerged as the live-attenuated vaccine of choice.12, 40 The vaccines were widely available almost immediately after licensing in 1963, and reported cases of measles dropped 10-fold within 5 years.12 Measles continued its downward trend when the CDC organized a nationwide measles eradication campaign from 1967 to 1969.40 A resurgence of measles in the 1990s was associated with decreased vaccination rates in children younger than 2 years and with primary vaccine failure leading to waning immunity in adolescents.39”

    *There are words like ASSUME, LIKELY, and USED CDC REPORTS. I have a few questions…where is the proof that the reason(s) for the downward trend of the contraction of Measles is directly linked with vaccines? The other question is where is the proof the resurgence of measles in the 90’s was associated with decreased vaccination rates? It does direct (39) the reader to the “proof” however, I’m not quite sure how to access that article…any way you can provide that for me so that I can read for myself? Long SS, ed, Pickering LK, ed, Prober CG, ed. Principles and Practice of Pediatric Infectious Diseases. 2nd ed. New York, NY: Churchill Livingstone; 2003.

    Another question is when this vaccine emerged does anyone have data on an illness or developmental issue(s) that rose during the year this vaccine was introduced? For example, I’ve read in 1996 when the Hep B vaccine was introduced behavioral and neurological disorders rose 300%.

    I also wanted to add to my recent post directed to Guest Blogger in regards to pro or anti vax…Regardless of what you feel is the best for your children wouldn’t we all agree being educated on the subject is extremely important?? Don’t you think the package insert, list of ingredients, risks and benefits, etc should be easily accessible? I was told all doctors were to provide that info and more prior to each jab however, that has never been the case in our situation. It’s sad this issue is one sided. No one here can deny there are risks associated with each vaccine but I think we would all agree we should be made aware, clearly aware, of those risks so that we can make an educated choice on what goes into our child’s body. I know someone here said to me that the list of ingredients wasn’t going to scare them and that is fine with me…if you KNOW what is in each vaccine and have been told the truth and no one is hiding any risks then that is your educated choice. The big problem with vaccines and the frustration parents have is the truth is not being told. They are hiding things like Autism & ADHD by saying “no studies show there is a link”. WHO are the people conducting the studies??? The ones making the money????? And the ones who are researching for themselves with nothing to gain are getting shot down and discounted. Doctors are telling their patients vaccines are safe because they are going off of studies that were conducted by pharma co’s (and maybe because there is no liability for doctors should a child be vaccine injured). But until I read my doctors personal studies done I have a hard time believing the garbage set forth. I also think it is silly & naive to have so much faith on science and have none on the human body.

    Reply
21. christel king September 25, 2009 at 20:46 #

    Sullivan
    i said it effects and affects ALL family members. including those WITH autism. and when you have a family it can’t be all about one child either, your non autistic children are important to. you can throw them out just because they AREN”T autistic. there has to be a health balence. in this we have seen our non ASD child come to love and support her brother instead of hate and dispise his dx. I can totally see her getting involved in the field to work with special needs kids down the road. our attitudes can be everything on how our kids special needs play into ALL the roles of all the family memberes involved. after all it’s their future to that gets sacrificed in trying to pay for therapies, treatments, ect for our speical needs kids to.

    Reply
22. Guest Blogger September 25, 2009 at 20:51 #

    jen,

    You’ve made a long post making a lot of points (September 25th, 2009
    16:29:39). I don’t have time to address all these points right now, but at least here are some:

    “I disagree with you, from a moral standpoint, copying and pasting a mother’s words and then, using that 1, out of many posts by this mother, as an example to say that biomed treatment as a whole is harmful to children or say this child is in a harmful situation because of it. I, personally feel, it would be more moral of you, if you feel the need to lurk on groups and discuss your findings, not to use a mother’s words, or any members words for that matter, and just discuss your own scientific data you collected to back your claim. If you feel like this is a topic of interest and you’d further like to investigate, imo, its would be more ethical of you to make your self known on each group stating…”hey, fyi-by the way, I’ll be reading all your posts and then using your words against you.””
    ___

    First, I did not say that the child was in a harmful situation. Some of the comment have said that. I let the list speak for itself. And boy, does it speak volumes!

    I think I chose a balanced selection of posts. I did post some things that showed how her child was not doing well. But I also posted things showing how amazing her son is and how much she loves him. Most of Mary’s posts are actually responses to other people, saying “We tried intervention X, at such a dosage” or “We bought supplement Y at such a place”. I went through a large number of such posts to collect the items in the big list(TM) of treatments.

    Now, would anyone have believed me if I had produced that list without attaching a pseudonym to it, to personalize it? I saw that on one of the yahoo groups, a mother stated that she didn’t believe the list was real, it must be a compilation of things tried by many people! I also used Saul as a striking example of how children don’t necessarily improve on “biomedical autism treatments”. Generation Rescue and others routinely claim that children are recovering from autism. Saul is a counter-example, and from what I’ve seen, completely typical of the stories on those lists. Children are not recovering in any substantial numbers. Instead you get stories of little improvements, such as “oh, he’s now potty trained”, “since treatment X, he has better eye contact”.

    If I’d announced myself, do you think I’d have stayed a member? Really? Besides that, I’ve been a member of these lists for MANY years, back in the days when I thought, like you, that there might be some promise in biomedical “treatments” and that there was a possibility that autism might be caused by vaccines. That was in the day that there was still some scientific plausibility to those ideas. That day is long over. You see, my child is 13, diagnosed at 3, and I’ve been on many lists for all that time. But, after years of reading not only those lists, but the science (I mean the real science, not whale.to or the antivax sites), I’m totally convinced that autism is not caused by vaccines. There may still be some biomedical treatments discovered in the future that may be of use, but so far, the results of from rigorous studies have shown no substantial benefits. I have become so totally sickened by the extent of experimentation on vulnerable children, that I’d had enough. Back in the day that it was just B6/Magnesium and the GFCF diet, it was different. It’s a scary world out there right now for the “biomedically treated” child with autism, and I wanted to show that.

    Finally, I’d like to point out that the majority of the posts were taken from A-M. A-M is a PUBLIC list. Anyone can read it.

    Reply
23. christel king September 25, 2009 at 20:53 #

    Sullivan
    “I dream. My child dreams. Right now I am dreaming of a world where the biggest obstacle to my child’s dignity doesn’t come in the form of autism parents.”

    this was not the dream you had when your child was born, this is the dream you have NOW with your child have autism, that is exactly what I am talking about. all of us have dreams for our kids when they are born for them to marry, have fullfilling jobs, realtionships, have kids themselves, play ball perhaps with dad and long talks with moms ect. those often time aren’t acheivable with kids that are low functioning, and when young are given dxes. there is no way you can tell me you got your childs dx and still thought oh well!

    I to dream of a world where my son can still have all that, and acheieve all that, but even that comes with a huge price and work! and all that not to say that were not working for that we are, that is why we CHOICE biomedical becuase it is giving my son all that back. trust me we have had to sacrifice and our kids needs are far above our own!

    Reply
24. christel king September 25, 2009 at 21:08 #

    “when nearly every child in the United States had contracted measles. Therefore, we assumed that every child in the birth cohorts of 1950 and 1960 had measles before age 10 years. for 1970 through 1998, we used the CDC reports of the incidence of measles.

    Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis. Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR. We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR.

    Several effective vaccines against measles were licensed in 1963, and by 1968, the Moraten strain emerged as the live-attenuated vaccine of choice.12, 40 The vaccines were widely available almost immediately after licensing in 1963, and reported cases of measles dropped 10-fold within 5 years.12 Measles continued its downward trend when the CDC organized a nationwide measles eradication campaign from 1967 to 1969.”

    ok so lets think about this, kids born in 1950-1960 would have all had measles before age 10 and then a vaccination came out in 1963- 1968……..anyone ELSE see a reason numbers would drop around the same time (WITH OUT THE VACCINATION!!!)
    if you are exposed to measles (and this CDC thing that is suppose to SUPPORT vaccinations is stating this)and had the measels you would have a generation of immune already kids there for rates would drop based on just that, as well as the rest of the house would have been exposed and developed antiboides to. then you have transfered immunity as well invitro. this only again goes to back what many of us on here are saying abou numbers dropping BEFORE vaccinations were in acted and not because of vaccatination but rather from exposure

    Reply
25. Stacey September 25, 2009 at 21:45 #

    “autism is the death of your dreams for your child,”

    I agree. When I was pregnant I dreamed of baking cookies together, school concerts and plays, cub scouts, little league football and baseball, learning to drive, graduating high school, college, and getting married. Oh and having grandkids.

    Now I pray and dream for the day my 10 year old can dress himself, answer a question with something other than a grunt, can stop ripping the skin off his own neck and in the long run, not end up in an institution.

    “I dream. My child dreams. Right now I am dreaming of a world where the biggest obstacle to my child’s dignity doesn’t come in the form of autism parents.”

    Was this your dream before your child was diagnosed? Was this your dream before your child was born? What were those dreams and how many of them have come true, and how many are realistic for the future?

    Reply
26. Emily September 25, 2009 at 22:09 #

    It’s not realistic to have *any* dreams for your child. You can parent, day to day. You can try to look forward, to prepare your child with tools to try to handle whatever the future may hold. But you can’t have dreams that you expect to be reality, whether your child has autism or not. It’s unrealistic. It’s a fairy tale. Childhood cancer, adolescent-onset schizophrenic disorder, a drunk driver, OCD, depressive disorder, suicide, freak accidents, misplaced poison, a fall from a tree, a new strain of flu, a lunatic boyfriend, a predator…any of these might wait around the corner to alter whatever expectations you were foolish enough to manufacture on behalf of yourself or your child.

    Not that you asked me, but I *never* have had any big dreams for my kids with one exception: I want them to be happy, by which I mean to feel comfortable with who they are in life. As a parent, part of my responsibility is facilitating this understanding of self for them. And a big part of it is knowing what any of us can change, what any of us should try to change, and what cannot be changed, and having the wisdom to understand the differences. I try and have always tried to understand what makes my children tick, what upsets them and why, even though it is often quite different from what upsets other people. And for negative behaviors, I try to work via my understanding of my children to help them have the tools to regulate their behaviors. In many cases, this continues to be a work in progress. It is work. Day by day. Not for some manufactured future I’ve planned for them, but for living their lives, now.

    I accept my children for who they are, and my oldest, who is autistic, is showing a remarkable ability to accept himself and understand himself. I guess that means that as of this day, whatever dreams I had for him have come true. But that’s just for today. I’m still amazed that any of them managed to complete gestation, given the enormous number of twists Fate can hold from conception onward.

    Reply
27. Chris September 25, 2009 at 22:09 #

    Please show the relative risk of the MMR vaccine versus getting the disease. Include the title, journal, date and authors of the papers with the supporting data. Cut and pasting from a website is not sufficient.

    It would also be nice if you would also post the title, journal, date and authors of the study that replicated Wakefield’s small set of case studies.

    Thank you.

    Reply
28. christel king September 25, 2009 at 22:18 #

    chris
    well when the CDC decided to finally report those numbers to everyone on stats we are all dieing to hear about, we will let you know. but since they are still covering there butts so as not to get spanked for getting caught in the cookie jar so to speak it may be awhile!

    but the TYPES of risks would be the same thing, it’s the same viruses

    Reply
29. jen September 25, 2009 at 22:20 #

    I just came across this link and thought it was very interesting and had some good facts. http://raising-angels.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Disease_v_Vaccination.pdf

    I’m sure KW will knock it cause its just a parent who is putting things together calling it research but its a good read.

    I have a question, seriously…not trying to be sarcastic, what all your thoughts on a huge majority of people across the globe who are, seemingly all of sudden, over the past 5-10yrs, banning together and questioning vaccines? Do you think its only because there are more cases of Autism and they need something to place blame? Do you honestly think all the anti-vaxers just decided, out of now-where, to take time out of their busy lives to create some sort of disillusion and to choose to totally disregard vaccines all together…going to such great lengths and being ok with the possibility of their child(ren) contracting an illness for no reason??

    At what point does common sense kick in for many. Why would anyone not believe a parent when they say…”my child was fine until that one jab…” Why is it ok to bash and drill a parent who is trying to do the best for their child but not ok to go after huge money-making companies with something to loose ($$). I am the one with my kids non-stop since birth. No doctor, no scientist or vaccine-maker, no newscast, no forms, no data..etc. Just me and my kids. I know how they are feeling, what’s going on, what bothers them and what doesn’t. How could you totally disregard parents who know their child(ren) and know what happened…who were there before and after.

    I also want to ask those on this group who either are or have children who suffer from Autism if you’ve tried simple or little things to help you better cope…not saying its a “cure” or you will be a new person but just to try and see…try taking probiotics (something we should ALL be taking, especially women) or how about digestive enzymes with meals (again, something else we should be on), or maybe even a diet change – gfcf. Gluten containing foods is not what its cracked up to be, and again, something we should all try to, at the very least, limit our in-take of. Even milk, its got a bad rap…especially the non-organic milk. Even fruits, has everyone – even NT people, have you tried to eat organic. I don’t believe trying the diet or simple things likes probiotics leads you down a path of no return as Guest Blogger states. I do believe a mother or father who tell me…”my child was non-verbal then 3 days later after being gfcf he/she was verbal.” I feel sad for the parents and their children who refuse to change their diet. I just don’t get it. Its totally a lot of work, but the rewards are just so awesome. I’d love for my son to be able to eat “normal” foods and hate all the time I spend in the kitchen but the end result…there are no words.

    I know I already hashed this diet thing earlier and Guest Blogger said he/she understands the changing of the diet if it helps but I do wonder if anyone here has tried and if they would even consider doing so to help themselves or their loved ones.

    Reply
30. jen September 25, 2009 at 22:36 #

    Emily you stated:

    “And a big part of it is knowing what any of us can change, what any of us should try to change, and what cannot be changed, and having the wisdom to understand the differences.”

    What you stated above sounds like the serenity prayer. You are sooo very right! And like you said, in the end the thing that really only matters is the child’s happiness! You said…”knowing what any of us CAN change” and if you could all try and understand parents like “Mary” are choosing to try and do things to test what they can and can’t change. They are doing what they CAN to ensure their child leads a happy and healthy life. And from what another, who is involved in this discussion who knows “Mary”, has stated during this discussion is that “Saul” IS happy and healthy and doing great then ever before!!! And based on that I would think case-closed and end of discussion.

    Reply
31. Stacey September 25, 2009 at 22:36 #

    Emily I didn’t say they were dreams for my child. They were dreams for me. I dreamed of watching a kid play ball. I dreamed of things he would do. If he didn’t want to do those things fine, he’d do something else. I just never dreamed that instead of a little league sport or music show I’d be sitting around observing 4 hours of ABA every day or cleaning diarrhea off the walls 5-6 times a week, or that I would never be able to go any where because not a living soul is willing to babysit my child, or that I’d still be wiping his ass at 10 years old. Yes things happen but my dreams died. I have new dreams yes but I still ache for the old ones.

    When I was 10 I wanted to grow up to be a pediatric heart surgeon. We had a family member who had open heart surgery at 6 months old and I wanted to grow up and be like the doctor that saved him. That dream never went away. I got great grades in high school and got accepted to a 6 year med program at a great college. For the life of me I couldn’t get through chemistry. Had tutors and everything. Just could do it. Did I move on to a new dream? Yes but I still think back and wish I could have been a doctor. It’s 25 years later and I still miss that dream.

    It always seems that the parents who are least understanding are the ones with kid who are very verbal, or can express themselves well with alternate communication devices, that can explain how they feel, and express what they want and need.

    What about the parents of kids who can’t talk or communicate, who bang their heads, scratch and bite themselves, smear crap on walls, lick glass, never sleep, and cant as much as feed themselves? They love their kids unconditionally but is it realistic for them to sit back and watch these children and think “it is what is and I totally accept my child’s condition?” Those poor kids are suffering. They are either in physical pain or mental pain from frustration because their bodies don’t work the way they do.

    Reply
32. Joseph September 25, 2009 at 22:37 #

    I have a question, seriously…not trying to be sarcastic, what all your thoughts on a huge majority of people across the globe who are, seemingly all of sudden, over the past 5-10yrs, banning together and questioning vaccines?

    The anti-vaccine movement exists since the day the first vaccine was used. There’s an “anti-” movement for everything.

    Now, the modern autism-based anti-vaccine movement is a phenomenon in its own right.

    Clearly, the “autism epidemic” idea is what allows it to exist at all, but it’s also become a sort of industry that includes a combination of litigation and the promotion of quackery, both profitable pursuits; not to mention its social aspects (e.g. “Mary”‘s motivation.)

    Reply
33. Kwombles September 25, 2009 at 22:43 #

    Jen,

    Are you honestly and seriously arguing that we should believe you based on the number of people who agree with you? Really?

    The number of people believing something to be real has no relevance on objective, scientifically-demonstrable reality.

    For example, a common mental disorder in Asian countries is koro. Doesn’t really mean men’s penises are shrinking at all, even if large groups of men can become convinced this is real.

    http://www.mentalhealth.com/mag1/wolfgang.html

    http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/9/16/81843/6555

    For you to then move onto the argument that it’s all in the diet and if only we’d follow behind you and do you what you’ve done is not much better. You have no idea how many of us have tried the diet, nor for how long. And I have not seen anyone who does not agree with the autism-vaccine link argue that food allergies and intolerances should not be treated with customized diets. You’re making blanket assumptions about people you profess to have only come across on Wednesday. (Oh, I know, some of us are talked about in those groups you seem to think we love to hate — not a sentiment I’ve personally expressed nor seen expressed by others– you don’t have to hate a group to think the group’s collective belief system is woo).

    You appear to have tremendous difficulty with allowing for multiple perspectives. You know, if I were to engage in the same kind of two dimensional thinking that you and Cristel have provided here over the last couple days, I would have to conclude that a subset of parents of autistic (or not autistic, apparently, who knew you made autism and could unmake it?) children has tremendous difficulty with critical thinking and reasoning skills as well as with ego-issues.

    Did you know there’s a fantastic study out there about competency and the recognition of one’s own competency levels? http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

    Reply
34. jen September 25, 2009 at 22:45 #

    Joseph said:
    “it’s also become a sort of industry that includes a combination of litigation and the promotion of quackery, both profitable pursuits; not to mention its social aspects (e.g. “Mary”’s motivation.)”

    Yes, you are right, I guess I didn’t think about that…there was an anti-vax movement since the birth of vaccines. So, I guess my question should have stated the “modern Autism-based” instead.

    Anyway, but I don’t agree with your above statement. While of course there are always a bad apple here and there among the bunch I have personally have seen no evidence of any of those negatives you mention but only positives.

    Reply
35. christel king September 25, 2009 at 22:47 #

    guest blogger (that in which wrote the above)
    a public formum verses you pulling out what YOU choose to are very different things. people can go and read and react and see the whole conversation and the circumstances in which those things are written on a group, you came with an adgenda so those items being extracted and being balenced can’t possibley line up. you have a motive!

    you also need to stay around those groups alot longer because you failed in that time to see the gains many of those great kids ARE making. there are daily reports of huge gains, and side note potty training IS a huge feet if you gain that from a change, many can fight for 6 years or 8 years to get that. and (UNDERLINED) I was the one that posted perhaps the person isn’t real and you were just pulling them, to which the REAL “mary” contacted me. so i do know they are not. what you have failed to grasp which really begs me to believe you really read all her posts is that her child has PANDAS> one of the posts you pulled talks about his regression and how poorly he is doing. you used that to back that he hasn’t made gains. when this is exactly what we are talking about, it’s not representitive of the gains “saul” has made in his time on biomedical. he is in a PANDAS flare durring that extracted peice which you fail to mention. it’s a temperary set back till treatment is in place, and finding specialist in this is even harder then those in autism. PANDAS makes autism look like a breeze! this spirals a child backwards as there brain is under attack. yet agian showing you are not the one qualified to be picking and choosing a representation from this womans life of what her son has gained or not gained from his time with biomed or it being representative of a whole board of people. PANDAS Is not a common thing in kids on the groups. in like 14000 families on one group there are a few hundred kids with double dxes

    Reply
36. Chris September 25, 2009 at 22:56 #

    christel king:

    well when the CDC decided to finally report those numbers to everyone on stats we are all dieing to hear about,

    The CDC only covers the USA. What about public health programs in other countries like the UK, Canada, Japan and elsewhere?

    This is the CDC data covering over fifty years of several diseases: CDC Pink Book Appendix G

    Why just the CDC? I want scientific evidence, and that would include research from several universities all around the world. Surely you know how to look for real research (I found the list of studies on http://www.pubmed.gov ). Just show me the studies that support your contention that the MMR vaccine is worse than the diseases. You should be able find stuff going back to at least to the 1960s that would include its testing, evaluation and followup before and after it was approved for use in the USA in 1971.

    but the TYPES of risks would be the same thing, it’s the same viruses

    That does not answer my question. Why do you think that the effect of the full strength virus from the disease would have a lesser effect than the attenuated virus of the vaccine? I am really not interested in opinion or anecdotes, I want real data.

    I do have one paper that tried to replicate Wakefield’s set of a dozen case studies. Read it and tell me if it confirms Wakefield’s conclusions: Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

    If you know of a study that actually replicated Wakefield’s study, please tell us the title, journal, date and authors.

    Thank you.

    I find it disturbing in that you are implying that a dead child is preferable to an autistic child. That is very sad.

    Reply
37. christel king September 26, 2009 at 01:07 #

    Kwombles
    we may have to agree to disagree as we have the same view of you that you have followed the masses! just believeing the mass media scares and vaccination sales departments. were still waiting for you to show those studies showing vaccinations are safe and testing in combo form, and of course TESTED on kids with developing immune systems…..

    Reply
38. christel king September 26, 2009 at 01:19 #

    chris

    “I find it disturbing in that you are implying that a dead child is preferable to an autistic child. That is very sad.”

    I never said that, that is twisting my words……but we can see you guys like to do that, take tid bits to fit your adgenda to make people look as you like it to for your motive!

    i’m saying we have traded one for another as a people. that there may not be deaths from measels but now we have deaths from vaccinations instead. kids are still subjected to measles just now straight into there blood stream via needles. which isn’t how your GOd given immune system is meant to work, you have first line defences ect that are meant to kick in first.

    I meantion the CDC because only THEY would have the controled rate of cases verse vaccinations reactions records with VARS which is STILL under reported. our dr even thought it was in our hospital records of vacination reaction was never sent in, WE had to do it years later when we realized he never did. that was the whole point in the program was to monitor negitive reactions to see if it WAS working and to help families that experienced those things. you can’t compair apples to organges. I don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know that. if you are compairing US measles mumps and rubella cases in the US you would have to compair reactions to vaccinations in the US. and since that is so gaurded because they don’t want to take responcibility for families they have damaged it will be a long time in coming for us all to have those peices of data

    as for wakefields work, Dr Buie at Mass General has been working to do that for a while, we see him and contributed our sons biopies to them. we have also been in studies PERSONALLY with titer and treatment testing for those with regressive autism and treatments with VIT A protical seeing great things. even had a break out when the immune system finally kicked in from head to toe in mealsels confirmed by 4 dr’s. and speach took off after that point like a rocket and amazed the dr’s that saw us 2 times a week to monitor our son and the changes our BIOMEDICAL was doing in a mainstream setting! we left them all amazed

    Reply
    • Sullivan September 26, 2009 at 01:32 #

      as for wakefields work, Dr Buie at Mass General has been working to do that for a while,

      Dr. Buie was a co-author on the paper which is widely regarded as the final nail in the coffin of Dr. Wakefield’s hypothesis.

      Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study

      Mady Hornig1*, Thomas Briese1, Timothy Buie2, Margaret L. Bauman3, Gregory Lauwers4, Ulrike Siemetzki1, Kimberly Hummel5, Paul A. Rota5, William J. Bellini5, John J. O’Leary6, Orla Sheils6, Errol Alden7, Larry Pickering8, W. Ian Lipkin1*

      bold is mine.

      Reply
39. christel king September 26, 2009 at 01:34 #

    JEN

    “I know I already hashed this diet thing earlier and Guest Blogger said he/she understands the changing of the diet if it helps but I do wonder if anyone here has tried and if they would even consider doing so to help themselves or their loved ones.”

    after helping hundreds of families and teaching classes year after year on biomedical helps to treat underlying medical issues that cause autism, I find so many people think you just pull gluten and casein and walla you have a new kid, and it’s not always that simple. I know one mom I worked with was willing and went full force and was maticulous with everything, a back ground in food education ect. she saw nothing, she was fusturated and ready to quit. I encouraged her to do testing to refine her issues and then treat them as the issues and not just a cover blanket this is what everyone else is doing. she got tested and low and behold potatoes and rice were higher then gluten and milk which were used as her subs when she pulled out gluten. when she RETRIED the diet with the info she had from testing her son finally took off. another common mistake I see made is that parents go in and sub everything out and end up OVER carbing kids because they feel guilty about taking things away. this is why I always tell parents its not about what you are taking away it’s about moving to healthy eating habits. picture what you want your child to be eating in a balenced diet and work towards that. think a meat, a veg, a carb, and perhaps a fruit for desert. and move forward that way. it’s not about removing something like to loose weight, it’s about getting healthy and getting our kids bodies healthy

    Reply
40. Kwombles September 26, 2009 at 01:37 #

    Christel,

    Your arguments might have sway if they were based on factual information. Vaccines aren’t injected into your bloodstream; they are injected subcutaneously. Massive difference and one you would have been aware of and understood if you read reputable sites.

    “we may have to agree to disagree as we have the same view of you that you have followed the masses! just believeing the mass media scares and vaccination sales departments.”

    Huh? You have the same view of me? of posters here? of whom? Can you explain this part –“have followed the masses”? Who is “believing the mass media scares and vaccination sales departments”? Is it “mass media scares” as an entity, that the mass media is attempting to scare people? Of what? To do what? Are you suggesting that the mass media is in colusion with big pharma to sell vaccines and make an entire generation autistic? Wait a minute, that’s right, it isn’t autism, it’s a whole bunch of other stuff that the doctors are colluding to call autism because they don’t want to take responsibility for screwing up a kid with his developing immune system. That’s right; how could I possibly forget?

    We don’t have to agree to disagree. I’m pretty sure there is very little I would agree with you on based on the “in loving color” butchering of science I’ve seen you and your bud Jen engage in here. That’s fine, though. Perhaps we could agree that Grey’s Anatomy is a good show, although god knows you’ll probably think that’s a big pharma effort with the mass media to brainwash the masses into thinking mainstream medicine is a good thing. I suppose that depends on the episode, though, and whether someone is screwing up a patient. You’ve proven you are a conspiracy theorist, that’s without doubt.

    Reply
41. Chris September 26, 2009 at 02:29 #

    christel king:

    I don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know that. if you are compairing US measles mumps and rubella cases in the US you would have to compair reactions to vaccinations in the US.

    Blatant avoidance to answering the question has been duly noted. Did you even try to find the information?

    What is VARS? Do you mean VAERS? That is a self-selected and reported set of raw data, and the data is released researchers all the time (including the Geiers). Read On Using VAERS.

    Here is some more data (Sullivan linked to the Hornig, Briese, Buie study I have mentioned a couple of times):

    No Evidence of Persisting Measles Virus in Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells from Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
    D’Souza Y et al.
    Pediatrics 2006; 118(4):1664-75
    *Subjects: 54 children with autism spectrum disorder and 34 developmentally normal children

    Age at First Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in Children with Autism and School-Matched Control Subjects: A Population-Based Study in Metropolitan Atlanta.
    DeStefano F et al. Pediatrics 2004; 113(2): 259-66
    *Subjects: 624 children with autism and 1,824 controls

    Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California.
    Dales L et al.
    JAMA 2001; 285(9):1183-5
    *Subjects: Children born in 1980-94 who were enrolled in California kindergartens (survey samples of 600–1,900 children each year)

    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

    Reply
42. Do'C September 26, 2009 at 02:40 #

    i’m saying we have traded one for another as a people. that there may not be deaths from measels but now we have deaths from vaccinations instead.

    Actually, there is absolutely nothing that even approaches some sort of even trade.
    Total compensated MMR/MMR-Varicella deaths in the U.S. since 1988 (over 20 years) = 53

    That’s about 2 per year.

    See:

    National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
    Statistics Reports

    Measles deaths prior to MMR in the U.S.?

    In the first 20 years of MMR vaccine licensure alone, it’s estimated to have prevented about 5,000 deaths (not to mention about 17,000 cases of mental retardation, and 52 million cases of measles).

    See:

    Health Impact of Measles Vaccination in the United States
    PEDIATRICS Vol. 76 No. 4 October 1985, pp. 524-532

    Please don’t bother to cite whale dot to, if you’re tempted – your argument would automatically lose any merit that may appear.

    kids are still subjected to measles just now straight into there blood stream via needles.

    I don’t suppose you have any idea what an attenuated vaccine is, do you? IM injections?

    which isn’t how your GOd given immune system is meant to work, you have first line defences ect that are meant to kick in first.

    The immune system is quite certainly a product of evolution. Even if you subscribe to a belief that “God Given” can simply translate to “unvaccinated” regardless of religious belief, the notion that one should get the disease “first” instead of an attenuated vaccine to prevent it in the first place, is ludicrous (it’s also a great way to get those 53 deaths in 20 years back up to 5,000 in the same period).

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43. christel king September 26, 2009 at 04:39 #

    “Our results differ with reports noting MV RNA in ileal biopsies of 75% of ASD vs. 6% of control children [10], [41]. Discrepancies are unlikely to represent differences in experimental technique because similar primer and probe sequences, cycling conditions and instruments were employed in this and earlier reports; furthermore, one of the three laboratories participating in this study performed the assays described in earlier reports. ”

    found this part of the artical interesting

    Reply
44. christel king September 26, 2009 at 04:43 #

    chris still waiting for you to show me those vaccinations have been tested to be safe in that number for those ages in current combo…..
    no testing has been done.

    the compairson to deaths from the disease to deaths from vaccination from it is something we ALL are waiting on.

    it would shock you more then me!

    Reply
45. christel king September 26, 2009 at 05:04 #

    yes VAERS I was typing to fast! unforchantly it’s the only thing we have for reporting unless you want the reports us parents have which you claim to not be good enough…..

    guess that would be a GOOD place for those who SHOULD be taking responcible for their product to do so we ALL have that info. in find it funny they say they don’t investigate it. we got contacted on all our filing, had to fill out forms and provide data from the hosptial and dr’s offices showing our damages.

    childhood toys and other meds DO have reporting process like that through FDA so that if things have a to high a rate of things they are pulled (viox) why vaccinations are so protected and untouchable is part of what makes us all sick. especially since it’s recommended for all. again…..things are STILL not tested in combo ect even showing it’s safe for our kids to begin with. you want to talk about guini pigs, that is what we have made of our generation of children. and the ones paying that price for it all is our kids!

    to think you can do “anything” to a whole community with out negitives is just foolish. there is always going to be some that react negitively, why is it that vaccinations are the acception to that?

    the stuff you are wanting is so protected the courts are having trouble even accessing it, and lawyers…..ever wonder why that is?? and whose interest are they protecting. it’s not yours and mine let me assure you.

    oh and you missed the meaning of what I am saying, yes vaccinations are injected, they are IM which goes into the blood stream, when you are exposed it’s very different. it doesn’t disperse like that you have first line of defences- musuc membrains ect. it’s how your immune system is designed to work.

    the meaning of the mass media is that if you DON’T vaccinate you are going to get these deadly diseases and die and risk others health which is bunk! we now advertize meds on TV in between kids cartoons for junk dxes like restless leg syndrom ect….where half the time if you listen to the listed side effects they are worse then why you are taking them in the first place, which is again the arguement. again I would ALSO like to see that stats on odds of negitive reactions to vaccinations verses the odds of getting the disease and haveing negitive reacations from having had them. been through measels, been through mumps, been through menengitis. not anywhere as scary as what they show you on tv and make it out to be if you don’t do the Holy vaccinations. and the great thing is we are immune for life to!

    Reply
46. jen September 26, 2009 at 05:16 #

    Doc you said: “Actually, there is absolutely nothing that even approaches some sort of even trade.
    Total compensated MMR/MMR-Varicella deaths in the U.S. since 1988 (over 20 years) = 53
    That’s about 2 per year.
    See:
    National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
    Statistics Reports”

    There is no compensation if they don’t agree your child was injured by a vaccine. Stories such as the one below are the reason you get your 2 a year!

    “Parents of an infant who died within hours of receiving a DPT vaccination failed to prove her death was caused by a reaction to an endotoxin in the vaccine, a federal appellate court ruled. The parents of a healthy baby born Dec. 2, 1982, brought her in for her first diptheria-pertussis-tetanus shot on Feb. 23, 1983. Shortly after returning home, the infant had two screaming and crying episodes. The mother put her in her crib to cry herself to sleep; when she checked 30 to 45 minutes later, the baby was limp, pale, unresponsive and not breathing. She was taken to the hospital by ambulance, but could not be revived. An autopsy listed sudden infant death syndrome as the cause of death.

    The parents petitioned for compensation under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act; the trial court denied their petition. On appeal, the parents argued the fact the child had been found found unresponsive and in cardiac and pulmonary arrest was clear evidence of hypotonic- hyporesponsive collapse from an endotoxin in the vaccine. HHC is compensable under the act.

    The court said the parents must present a medical theory causally connecting the vaccination with the child’s cardiac and pulmonary arrest. Evidence in the record failed to support the parent’s theory that death was caused by a reaction to endotoxin in the vaccine. The court concluded that a causal link between the vaccination and death could not be based merely on the short time between the events.

    Hodges v. Secretary of Dept. of HHS, 9F.3d 958 (C.A. Fed. Cir., Nov. 15, 1993)”

    Reply
47. jen September 26, 2009 at 05:20 #

    Do’c here is another one…

    “SIDS doesn’t prove DPT vaccine-injury claim.
    The parents of a child who allegedly died as a result of a vaccination were not entitled to compensation, ruled a federal appellate court. The child was born by routine C-Section in December 1983. Starting in her second month of life, she was given phenobarbital for colic. In her fourth month, she received a DPT vaccination and, the same day, a few hours later, a dose of phenobarbital. She awoke two hours later, at 9:30 p.m., and took some but not all of her bottle and cereal. The next morning between 6 and 6:30 she was found dead in her crib. An autopsy later classified her death as sudden infant death syndrome.

    The parents sought compensation under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Act. In their action filed in the federal claims court, they asserted the child died from either anaphylactic shock or hypotonic-hyporesponsive collapse, both compensable under the program. In the alternative, the parents claimed the child had died from some other injury caused by the DTP vaccination.

    The special master assigned to the case determined that neither cause was responsible for the death. He concluded the parents had failed to establish by a preponderance of evidence the vaccination was the cause of death. Reversing this decision, the claims court held that the undisputed evidence of respiratory or cardiovascular failure required a determination that HHC was present. As the precise cause of death was unknown, it was necessary to accept as a matter of law that symptoms of HHC, including respiratory and cardiac arrest, constituted the presence of HHC.

    On appeal, court reversed. The claims court had made two errors, it explained. The first was in ignoring the plain language of the Vaccine Act, which required establishment of cause of death by a preponderance of the evidence. The second was in failing to recognize that nothing in the act supported the conclusion that when cause of death was unknown, the presence of symptoms such as cardiovascular or respiratory arrest superseded the requirement of a preponderance of evidence.

    Hellebrand v. Secretary of Dept. of HHS, 999 E2d 1565 (C.A., Fed. Cir., July 23, 1993)”

    These articles are an amazing demonstration that the federal government does not believe DPT can kill your baby even if death occurs within hours of receiving a vaccine shot!!! These parents are up against a wall!

    Reply
48. christel king September 26, 2009 at 05:22 #

    Do’c
    as dicussed previously those numbers went down even based on the info you provided with out vaccinations throw in as the timeing also corrilates according to thier own info on a generation of people all being exposed to measels and contracting to it, meaning they already had antibodies to it which would cause for a dive in numbers. vaccinations didn’t change that, but that IS what they would LIKE you to believe so they can SELL You that product.

    “Actually, there is absolutely nothing that even approaches some sort of even trade.
    Total compensated MMR/MMR-Varicella deaths in the U.S. since 1988 (over 20 years) = 53

    That’s about 2 per year.”

    thanks you proving my point! the numbers of death from infections are down compaired to what they were back in the 50-60’s. (again I argue NOT from vaccinations but rather exposure and transfered immunity) back then they were what 300 per year??? you have to compair those numbers to how many deaths are caused by the vaccination death rate. so are we really any further ahead??? no! we just have a higher rate of autism from a side effect from over toxic kids trusting in dr’s to keep chucking more stuff into them before they can handle the load. (with out safty being checked and tested before hand) at what rate of kids being effected to we wake up and say enough is what we should be asking.

    even if kids are dieing or being damaged from vaccinations PLUS something like underlying conditions ect you still have to atribute that as part of the factor….would they be there with out the vaccination spirialing it. mito issues has been discussed with that, allergies, comprimised immune system at time of vaccinations, low glutathione ect. dr’s should be looking for warning signs of that, be educated on the medium they are driving so to speak. and do so responcilbly when they are trusted to be the expert on the day you show up. RISK ASSESMENT so to speak.

    Reply
49. christel king September 26, 2009 at 05:30 #

    by the way since religon was pulled into this it’s not prevention verses disease with vaccinations, it’s WAY more then that.

    GOD gives us what we need to protect itself, to think unwise means he doesn’t know what he is doing and has created us to be flawed. we have done the damage to ourself not him. welcome to sin and the world

    2nd He never intended us to inject other animals DNA into our body, monkey, dog, chicken ect

    3rd, HE never intended us to inject metals into ourself either that can harm the functions of the body to work and are designed to function as.

    4th. He would NEVER want us to use an aborted child to mediate meds on and then inject into our children either. it goes against all he stands for

    there isn’t anything in a vacination that was meant to go into our bodies in the manner they are put into them

    he gave us and designed our immune system to fight for us. he designed foods and nutrients to strengthen our body. and no I am not antimed either, he also gives us wisdom to use the things he has provided us with like plants ect to help our bodies in broken times to. that is how medicine evolved. but I think somewhere along the way people got greedy and careless and said lets take this to make this cheeper even though it probley shouldn’t be put into the body in this medium, and didn’t think about how it could effect this thing or that things in the body. praise God for advances in meds and research but we need to be wise in how we use them to. they can benifit or harm. homeopathy is an example using some of the same stuff of little forms of this or that to provoke responces in the body immune wise with out injecting into places they weren’t meant to have first contact with!

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50. jen September 26, 2009 at 05:38 #

    KW – I, think CK would agree she is not either, am not a conspiracy theorist but rather a realist. Realizing things are possible. That money over the health and safety of our children is possible.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d7_1182492879
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs&feature=youtube_gdata (in case the top link doesn’t work)

    Above is a perfect example how both a major drug company like Bayer and the federal government had NO problem putting one over on their customers and the rest of the public. And to make matters worse their customers were primarily made up of children!!!! How sick is this!

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