“I feel like getting in my car, driving away and never coming back. I can’t stand it anymore. If the screaming, howling, humming, and screeching doesn’t stop I will lose my mind. 14 hours a day. From the second he open his eyes until the second he closes them there is noise. Even if you tell him to be quiet he sits there and says “be quiet…be quiet” over and over. Not more than 10 seconds goes by where some ridiculous sound isn’t coming out of my son. He talks in a high pitched screechy voice that makes every nerve ending stand on end. He screeches and screams for no reason. The humming, the high pitched humming all day long. I can’t take it. My head hurts so bad and there are only so many things I can take for a headache. I wake up at 7 am, or rather I am awakened by screeching at 7am and get no peace until about 9pm. By then my head hurts so much it doesn’t matter. I can’t get anything done because I can’t focus with the noise in the background. I can’t have a phone call. I can’t have a conversation in person. I know this is going to upset some people but I swear, I miss the days when he didn’t make a peep. not a single peep. I remember when I used to cry and ask him to talk to me, to say anything. I should have been more specific and wished he’d speak and make meaningful sentances rather than walk around all day and say meaningless phrases over and over, and scream and screech when he didn’t. know what meaningless phrase to use at the moment. I have about 40 minutes before he goes to bed then I get to listen to him hum himself to sleep for an hour. By then I should be ready to jump off a roof.
Thanks for letting me vent. Not sure if it made me feel better but at least if I jump off the roof someone knows why”
Posted by “Mary”, mother of “Saul”, age 7.9 (7 years, 9 months), to an autism “biomedical treatment” yahoo group in August 2009.
The idea that vaccines might be a cause of autism has received a great deal of attention from the media. Scientifically, the question has been thoroughly investigated and thoroughly discredited.
Legally, the idea has also been rejected. The Autism Omnibus case bundled the claims of almost 5000 children against the Vaccine Injury Compensation program. In the hearings for the first of three theories of causation, the lawyers for the parents and their children chose the strongest three cases to illustrate their claim that MMR vaccines and thimerosal-containing vaccines can combine to cause autism. On February 12, 2009, all three cases were dismissed. The decisions were scathing, stating that “the overall weight of the evidence is overwhelmingly contrary to the petitioners’ causation theories.” Moreover, parents were characterized as a “loving, caring, and courageous” family “misled by physicians who are guilty of gross medical misjudgment. In June and July of 2009, all test cases were appealed, and all three were dismissed.
The yahoo group “Environment of Harm” formerly “Evidence of Harm”, was established to discuss the book of the latter title, written by journalist David Kirby. The focus of the group is to discuss
“issues of government public health negligence and corruption and the various political efforts by parents to end the spectrum of epidemics that is being revealed as mercury poisoning, especially autism.”
From March 2005, the date of the book’s publication, until February 2009, when the Omnibus legal decisions were rendered, the group received an average of over 2000 posts per month. Since the rulings, the posting rate has dropped to only 800 per month, perhaps indicating that the issue is also losing momentum from a political point of view.
The mainstream media, the groups such as the AAP, and the blog sphere have also pushed back in an effort to educate the public on the harm done by the vaccines cause autism groups.
But behind the scientific and legal consensus that vaccines do not cause autism lies a hidden world, the autism “biomedical” yahoo- and chat-group world. There is no decline in the number of posts in this world. It’s a thriving, and growing community, one that has fueled the popularity of the anti-vaxers, and the certainty of those parents who consider their child “vaccine-injured”. It has spurred the spending of millions of dollars on supplements, hyperbaric treatments, off-label prescription medications, and myriad other autism “biomedical treatments”. These “treatments” are almost all of no proven benefit, some are ridiculous, some relatively benign, and many potentially dangerous. This article will explore the journey of one mother, “Mary” in her efforts to cure her son “Saul”. While the case of Mary and Saul, documented in her own words is shocking and appalling, Mary is not alone nor is she an extreme case. She is one of thousands of parents seeking autism “biomedical treatments” on the internet.
We first meet Mary in October 2003, when her son Saul (born November 2001) was only 22 months of age. She began posting on the group NLT (for a description of the yahoo groups discussed in this article see the section at the end). She stated that her son
“is basically non verbal. He said his first word, duck, at 7 months old. About a month later he said light, off , and on, but dropped duck. This set a pattern for him. Anytime he learned a new word he dropped any old words he had used at that point. Now, his only real words are Mama and Dada. He will on a rare occassion say car. He has had and lost about 20 words since 7 months of age.”
Shortly thereafter, he was evaluated by early intervention, and psychologist wrote PDD on his evaluations, along with the term Autistic-like. Mary was told that he was not autistic, but he’s autistic like. 10-20 hours a week of intensive in home therapy (ABA) was recommended.
So, Saul is a very young child, showing speech delay and signs of autism, evaluated very quickly, and almost immediately started on early intervention. Of course, Mary is understandably upset:
“I don’t know why I’m so upset. He (the psychologist) didn’t say anything I didn’t already know or suspect. I guess its just because my fears were realized. Rather than come in and say “oh no, he’s fine, he’s just a late talker” I heard what I was hoping not too. I’m sure that somehow to some degree this is my fault. Saul was such a quiet content infant, and he was content to play by himself as he got older I sort of went with it. I figured he was happy let me go do dishes, or laundry or whatever and let him entertain himself. Yeah that was great but now he is only happy by himself and turns in to himself and its my fault I know it is.”
Recent research (two links:here and here) has looked at the impact of parental acceptance of their child’s autism diagnosis. It was found that parents who do not come to a resolution (i.e. come to terms with and accept the diagnosis and its implications) find raising their child more difficult. In the case of Mary, we will see a real-life example of a mother failing to come to terms with her child’s PDD.
Here’s Mary again:
Thank you everyone for your support. I’m sorry I forgot to mention Saul’s age. He will be 2 at the end of the month.
I’m feeling a lot better but still overwhelmed. I want to read as much as possible so I can do the best to help him but I think I need a little time to come to terms.
A few questions though if anyone knows…Do kids diagnosed with PDD always end up as special ed or is their hope with therapy he main go mainstream. The reason I ask is that my cousin teaches 5th grade special d and the majority of her kids are PDD kids, and have been in special ed since kindergarten. What are the odds that my child will grow up, go to college and lead what is considered a normal life?
Also, I was reading about a special diet that gluten free that is supposedly helpful. Has anyone tried this?
Should I just go with the system for say 6 mos or so and see how he responds and progresses before trying anything different like diet changes or supplements.
Sorry if I’m asking a million questions. My brain is spinning and all the websites I go to just overwhelm me more. Everyone here seems to have such a wealth of knowledge, and more importantly personal experience and understanding.”
This message signals the start of a frightening journey into the realms of woo. The “treatments” inflicted on Saul are very painful to read. Mary joined numerous autism “biomedical treatment” yahoo groups. She is presently a member of all the groups in the box, see below (except EoH), and more besides. She has posted more than 3500 messages to these groups. Mary reveals her willingness to accept medical advice from strangers on the internet, and her trust in doctors employing “gross medical misjudgment”. Between the ages of 3.6 and 7.9, Saul has been “treated” with the following (in alphabetical order):
Acetyl L Carnitine –
acetylated form of L-carnitine
(quaternary ammonium compound biosynthesized from the amino acids lysine and methionine)
Actos (pioglitazone)
-prescription drug which carries a black box warning
Cal/Mag Butyrate – mineral supplement
Candex
– marketed as an enzymatic remedy to treat the yeast infection candida
Carnosine -amino acid
Chelation – process of removing heavy metals
Andrew Cutler protocol (at least 50 rounds)
DAN protocol for 2 1/2 years.
15 IVs of EDTA & Glutathione
5 IVs of DMPS and glutathione
5 combined IVs DMPS/EDTA/Glutathione
Chiropractic
Diflucan – prescription anti-fungal
Dimethyl glycine – modified amino acid
Enhansa – Enhanced absorption curcumin supplement
Epsom salt baths
Essential fatty acids
Flagyl (Metronidazole) – prescription anti-fungal
Folinic acid – modified folic acid
Folapro – highly absorbable folate
Galantamine
prescription drug used for the treatment of mild to moderate
Alzheimer’s disease and various memory impairments
GFCF diet – gluten-free-casein-free diet (3 years)
GFCF diet with digestive enzymes for infractions
HBOT
hyperbaric oxygen treatment
(Mary owns her own Mary owns a Vitaeris 320)
HLC MindLinx Powder by Pharmax – probiotic
IM Bicillin – prescription intramuscularly injected form of penicillin
Inositol – a nutrient
IVIG – Intravenous Immunoglobulin
prescription
used to treat immune dysfunction
contains the pooled immunoglobulin G (IgG)
immunoglobulins from the plasma of approximately a
thousand or more blood donors
Klaire Labs Detoxification Support and Factor 4 – probiotic
Liquid Bodybio PC – phosphatidylcholine with essential fatty acids
Liquid grapefruit seed extract
Low dose Naltrexone – an anti-opiod
L-theanine – amino acid
Magnesium supplements
MB12 – Methylcobalamin, vitamin B12 – shots
MB12 – Methylcobalamin, vitamin B12 – spray
Nicotine patch
Nizoral – antifungal
Nystatin – antifungal
OLE – olive leaf extract
OSR
(N,N’-bis (2-mercaptoethyl)isophthalamide,
also know as 1,3-benzenediamidoethanethiol)
an untested synthetic chemical
Oxytocin nasal spray
PCA-Rx – purports to remove toxins from the body
Phosphatidylcholine
Pro Bio – probiotic
Quercetin – antioxidant flavinoid
Reduced glutathione cream
Threelac -probiotic
Transdermal NAC (N-Acetyl Cysteine)
Valtrex (valacyclovir)
used to treat infections caused by herpes viruses
Vitamin C
Vitamin E
Zithromax – antibiotic
Mary has been tireless in “treating” Saul. But what about Saul? One would think that he must be very impacted by autism in order for her to go to these extraordinary lengths to cure him. Actually, no. He’s an extraordinary kid, and a wonderful one. Saul could identify all of the letters in any order and count to 40 at age 2.2. He started sight reading words at about 2.3 and at age 2.8 could sight read about 30 words. He started kindergarten in a segregated setting at age 4.9, , talked to the teacher, “he sat nicely through circle time, sat at his desk during class, and even raised his hand and answered questions. He was pointing to shapes on the wall and quizzing the teachers!” Here is Mary’s description of Saul at age 4.7:
“I woke up this morning and he was in bed with me. I’m not sure what time he came in because I never heard or felt him get into bed which is unusual. I woke up and felt him there. I rolled over and his little face was right there. He looked so peaceful and really has the face of an angel. I just laid there and stared at him for about 20 minutes. He yawned and opened his eyes. He saw me and his face lit up with a HUGE ear to ear grin. “Good morning Mom. Love you. Gimme a hug.” He gave me such a big strong hug. “Gimme a kiss.” I gave him a kiss. A second later his gears kicked in and he was off and running on full speed. After a few minutes he came back in the room and said “GIMME BREAKFAST! ! !””
But the “biomedical treatments” have not always been kind to Saul. Here’s Mary describing him at age 5.11
My son is on a ton of supplements. We haven’t really changed anything. Starting August 30, for three weeks we had to stop all enzymes, antifungals and probiotics in preparation for a endoscopy/colonoscopy. He is back on everything since he was scoped on Sept 20. Also at the beginning of August he had a high fever and a nasty rash that was diagnosed as Fifth’s Disease. I’m not convinced it was Fifths. He didn’t have the bright red cheeks and the rash was gone in 3 days.
After being sick he became clingy and a little whiny. In the past month its become horrible. I can’t even stand up without his whining “mommy..moooommmmmy, mommy will come.” I hear this the entire time I’m out of the room. Even if I tell him what I’m going to do and that I’ll be right back he continues saying it over and over. He whines over every little thing. Usually just lets out a big “WWWAAAAHHH” and it goes on and on. He cries over everything. He’s driving me insane. We are also seeing a decrease in spontaneous expressive language, asking repetitive questions, and repeating back questions instead of answering them.”
Nor have the “biomedical treatments” been kind to the family budget. In one message, Mary admitted that each month she spent $2800 – $3500 for IVIG, plus about $500 in supplements including the cost of chelation.
In a rare moment of insight, in May 2008, Mary posted:
“Sometimes I feel like a mad scientist and my poor kid is my guinea pig.”
Finally, a year later, she posted the preamble to this article (see box at top). How’s that “biomedical treatment” working out for you, Mary?
Such are the real costs of the anti-vaccination movement, the “biomedical treatment” internet groups. And the real costs of a parent unable to accept their child’s diagnosis. In her last message to the NLT group, Mary is still in denial about her son’s diagnosis:
RE: Sowell Traits
My son is 5 and is diagnosed PDD-NOS fits 7 of these to a T! ! ! The only one that doesn’t fit is # 7Makes me wonder what we are really dealing with.”
Thousands of parents are members of these yahoo groups. Once inside the cozy echo chamber of the group, there is general acceptance that vaccines cause autism. Members expressing opposing views are drummed out of the group. It is taken as an article of faith that there are children recovering from autism by the use of these biomedical interventions. The parents get poorer, the quacks get richer, and the innocent children are the victims of often dangerous and painful experimentation at the hands of the people who are supposed to care for them the most.
Some Yahoogroups
A-M – Autism-Mercury. Membership 8400, 2000 messages/month (archives public)
“To discuss current issues related to the increasing incidence of autism the potential link between excessive mercury exposure via thimerosal in infant vaccines. Topics include: mercury detoxification (“chelation”), mercury-related issues/news, and vaccination-related issues/news. Most members are parents of children with autism, aspergers, ADD, ADHD, PDD, PDD-NOS, SID, oppositional defiance disorder, apraxia, speech disorders, and/or other related symptoms. There are many labels: you are welcome regardless of particular label(s). In addition to mercury, we also discuss other heavy metals (for example: arsenic, antimony, lead). Many parents here are in the process of chelation, with a child. This process is discussed in detail. Also welcome: mercury poisoned adults; other disorders/issues related to mercury poisoning; other biomedical treatments for ASD.”
Comment: Primarily discusses Andrew Cutler heavy metal chelation protocol. This protocol relies on faux “counting rules” applied to hair testing to purportedly prove that people are “mercury toxic”. Andrew Cutler has a PhD in Chemical Engineering.
CK2 – Chelatingkids2. Membership 6600, 3000 messages/month
“This list is for parents and/or family members of children with autism who are seeking biomedical intervention, The main focus of treatment here follows the DAN! or Defeat Autism Now.”
Comment: Mercury chelation according to the DAN! protocol. This protocol relies on provoked urine tests to purportedly prove “mecury toxcicity”. This very active group has been recently closed to new postings for an unspecified period of time.
EoH – Environment of Harmformerly Evidence of Harm. Membership 2300, 600 messages/month (archives public)
“This is the Environment of Harm discussion list focusing on vaccine damage and mercury poisoning as it relates to autism. Of keen interest to participants are the issues of government public health negligence and corruption and the various political efforts by parents to end the spectrum of epidemics that is being revealed as mercury poisoning, especially autism.”
Comment: Politically active group originally supporting the autism is caused by mercury poisoning hypothesis, but now openly anti-vaccine.
GFCFKids– Membership 14000, 3500 posts/month
“The principle aim of this list is to provide a discussion forum for parents of children on the autism spectrum who are avoiding gluten and casein and other substances in their children’s diets. We hope that the discussions will include practical information and tips on following a GFCF(etc) diet; scientific research and opinion; the latest developments in understanding GFCF(etc) diet-related health problems; your personal stories and experiences with relation to GFCF(etc) problems; information on what food is GFCF(etc)and what is not; tips on how to eat out of the house; recipes and tips on how to cook and prepare GFCF(etc) food; what vitamins, minerals, herbs and other supplements may be appropriate for a child with autism, how to cope with difficult diet demands, plus support for parents.”
Comment: One of the largest “biomedical treatment” yahoo groups. While the GFCF diet has substantial anecdotal support, clinical trials have not shown any benefit. The GFCF diet appears relatively harmless, however, it can result in weakening of bones due to nutritional deficiencies. Moreover, it often acts as a first step on the path to more dangerous “biomedical treatments”.
NLT – NaturalLateTalkers. Membership 2900, 500 messages/month
“This list is a support for parents of latetalkers or speech delay with some or all traits of latetalker listed in the book Late Talking Children by Thomas Sowell. . . Here parents ARE and will be able to discuss their problems, concerns, and dissatisfaction with the over diagnosing done by various systems, such as speech therapists, doctors, schools, etc. Parent’s choice helping with speech through parent or another source is to be respected.” (sic)
Comment: This list supports those in deep denial about their child’s autism. While such support groups appear to be relatively benign, offering mutual support to parents of children with disabilities, they are often an entry point for parents to learn about the autism “biomedical treatment” and anti-vaccination movements. These groups are replete with examples of parents taking medical advice from strangers over the internet, many of whom are accorded more credibility than the medical professionals who have actually seen their children.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Also, if vaccines were so great and save the day on all these terrible illnesses and US Vaccinates more than any other country then why o why does the US have the highest vaccine rates and the worst under 5 child mortality rate????
Can someone explain this?? What are some of the “symptoms” associated with Autism?? I will say off the top of my head…spinning, hand-flapping, sensory issues, poor speech and poor coordination for starters.
Have you ever looked up the symptoms for Mercury poisoning??? Lets try Wikipedia for grins…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning
“Symptoms typically include sensory impairment (vision, hearing, speech), disturbed sensation and a lack of coordination. The type and degree of symptoms exhibited depend upon the individual toxin, the dose, and the method and duration of exposure.”
Jen, I provided data specific to MMR and measles (Christel specifically mentioned measles). You counter with stories about DPT? Does this make sense to you?
Christel, because something was discussed previously does not magically make nonsense into sense. Thanks for not quoting Whale though.
While you are certainly entitled to you beliefs, religious assertions have absolutely zero relevance in the discussion of scientific matters. Along the lines of trying to understand your beliefs, who created people who study science and medicine and invent vaccines? Who created unvaccinated autistic children?
A true GR disciple. Jen, tell us about the impact of access to healthcare on mortality across the various U.S. demographics. Feel free to explain any relevance to autism whatsoever too.
Do’c I used the DPT story just as an example. You totally disregarded the point. Whether its DPT, DTaP, MMR, polio, whatever…they don’t want to compensate you for a variety of reasons and when you aren’t compensated you aren’t counted in those stats.
christel king:
Classic case of moving the goalposts. You have not shown any data showing the vaccine is a big killer, nor any that it causes autism, yet you demand me to show you stuff… even after I have presented you with several studies.
The data is there, and has been give to you. D’oC actually gave you the totals for MMR vaccine deaths. The problem is that you refuse to look at it, nor are willing to comprehend it.
I am willing to bet you will not even bother to read this study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=3923849 (tell me the title, date, authors and what it says as evidence that you bothered to read it)
The MMR has been in use for almost forty years in the USA. If you are less than forty years old you most likely were vaccinated with it yourself. It has never had thimerosal nor aluminum, and has prevented thousands of deaths in the USA, and millions of deaths worldwide.
But just for grins and giggles have fun:
Am J Dis Child. 1962 Mar;103:484-95.
Perspectives for testing safety of live measles vaccine.
HILLEMAN MR, GOLDNER H.
JAMA. 1969 Mar 24;207(12):2259-62.
Combined live measles, mumps, and rubella virus vaccines.
Buynak EB, Weibel RE, Whitman JE Jr, Stokes J Jr, Hilleman MR.
Am J Dis Child. 1971 May;121(5):380-1.
Combined live measles, mumps, rubella vaccine. Immunological response.
Krugman S, Muriel G, Fontana VJ.
JAMA. 1971 Oct 4;218(1):57-61.
Trivalent combined measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. Findings in clinical-laboratory studies.
Stokes J Jr, Weibel RE, Villarejos VM, Arguedas JA, Buynak EB, Hilleman MR.
Pediatrics. 1973 Mar;51(3):467-75.
Persistence of immunity following monovalent and combined live measles, mumps, and rubella virus vaccines.
Weibel RE, Buynak EB, Stokes J Jr, Hilleman MR.
Rev Inst Med Trop Sao Paulo. 1973 May-Jun;15(3):161-4.
[Side effects of the use of the preventive mixed mumps, rubella and measles vaccine inchildren of the City of São Paulo][Article in Portuguese]
Konichi SR, Laus WC, Mattos CA, Amato Neto V, Aly J, Finger H, Bianchi A.
Infection. 1974;2(3):115-7.
Combined trivalent and bivalent measles, mumps and rubella virus vaccination. A controlled trial.
Swartz TA, Klingberg W, Klingberg MA.
Am J Dis Child. 1975 Dec;129(12):1408-12.
Clinical evaluation of a new measles-mumps-rubella trivalent vaccine.
Schwarz AJ, Jackson JE, Ehrenkranz NJ, Ventura A, Schiff GM, Walters VW.
Am J Dis Child. 1978 Jun;132(6):573-7.
Rubella, measles and mumps antibodies following vaccination of children. A potential rubella problem.
Balfour HH Jr, Amren DP.
J Med Assoc Thai. 1978 Sep;61(9):536-43.Links
Seroconversion and reaction of vaccines, rubella–mumps and measles–rubella–mumps combined.
Khanjanasthiti P, Jayavasu J, Kashemsant C, Dhanamitta S, Prapattong S.
Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1980 Nov;165(2):323-6.
Clinical and laboratory studies of combined live measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines using the RA 27/3 rubella virus.
Weibel RE, Carlson AJ Jr, Villarejos VM, Buynak EB, McLean AA, Hilleman MR.
Am J Dis Child. 1984 Sep;138(9):843-7.
Clinical trial of a new trivalent measles-mumps-rubella vaccine in young children.
Vesikari T, Ala-Laurila EL, Heikkinen A, Terho A, D’Hondt E, André FE.
Lancet. 1986 Apr 26;1(8487):939-42.
Frequency of true adverse reactions to measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. A double-blind placebo-controlled trial in twins.
Peltola H, Heinonen OP.
Pediatrics. 1988 Feb;81(2):237-46
Simultaneous administration of measles-mumps-rubella vaccine with booster doses of diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and poliovirus vaccines.
Deforest A, Long SS, Lischner HW, Girone JA, Clark JL, Srinivasan R, Maguire TG, Diamond SA, Schiller RP, Rothstein EP, et al.
Pediatrics. 1990 Apr;85(4 Pt 2):682-9.
Safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of concurrent administration of Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine (meningococcal protein conjugate) with either measles-mumps-rubella vaccine or diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis and oral poliovirus vaccines in 14- to 23-month-old infants.
Dashefsky B, Wald E, Guerra N, Byers C.
Public Health. 1991 Mar;105(2):91-7.
A randomised single blind trial of a combined mumps measles rubella vaccine to evaluate serological response and reactions in the UK population.
Edees S, Pullan CR, Hull D.
Am J Dis Child. 1993 Aug;147(8):854-7.
Simultaneous administration of a diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine with measles-mumps-rubella and oral poliovirus vaccines.
Rothstein EP, Bernstein HH, Glode MP, Laussucq S, Nonenmacher J, Long SS, Hackell JG.
Clin Infect Dis. 1997 May;24(5):925-31.
Measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella combination vaccine: safety and immunogenicity alone and in combination with other vaccines given to children. Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Varicella Vaccine Study Group.
White CJ, Stinson D, Staehle B, Cho I, Matthews H, Ngai A, Keller P, Eiden J, Kuter B.
Department of Clinical Research, Merck Research Laboratories, West Point, Pennsylvania 19486,
Now tell me what the relative risks are between the MMR vaccine and actually getting measles, mumps and rubella. Please provide the journal, title, date and authors of the paper you cite to support your answer.
Also, provide the journal, title, date and authors of the study that has replicated and confirmed Wakefield’s set of a dozen case studies. Giving the name of one doctor who was working on it was not sufficient, especially since the paper he co-authored did not seem to confirm your contention that (to quote you) “wakefield’s stuff wasn’t flawed and credability has been restored in that situation and the man who published the mess lost his job over the whole thing.” (by the way, is the fellow who lost his job the same one this check is written out to?)
Jen,
Re: mercurism/autism
2001 called, they want their hypothesis back.
What is that??? “A true GR disciple.”
A commenter who would read something produced by Generation Rescue as gospel truth (even if they acquired it second hand and are only parroting it) and as if it were relevant to autism in any way.
So Jen, your point (as irrelevant to Christel’s claim as it was), is not lost me. Do you have real evidence (e.g. data) that would lend itself to support Christel’s original implication of the trade based on different mortality numbers? Or are you just throwing irrelevant stories out there?
Christel,
If you will not read what I have written already, we have very little to discuss. Two things I can say: First, aluminum is a component of the feldspars, kaolinite and many other extremely common minerals. If it were a serious threat to life, the planet would be uninhabitable. Second, there was never enough mercury in vaccines to poison even a child, unless a substantially larger amount (I came up with FOUR TIMES as much in a calculation of my own) from other sources. If you are concerned about mercury poisoning, quit sea food, not vaccines.
Do’C, don’t know about Generation Rescue. As far as your first comment: “tell us about the impact of access to healthcare on mortality across the various U.S. demographics. Feel free to explain any relevance to autism whatsoever too.”
First of all I can not tell you the impact of access because not much of any data exists. If you know, please do share. “Traditional measures and data sources on children’s access to health care are limited. Not all traditional measures of mainstream health care (e.g., care provided in physicians’ offices, hospitals, and emergency departments) are tailored to children’s health care needs. Moreover, children sometimes get needed services outside the mainstream health care system, such as in schools, public specialty clinics, and from non-physician subspecialists. Mainstream efforts to collect data on children’s health care rarely collect information about these sources of health care. As a result, little is known about how and where many children obtain many health services and about the extent to which there may be disparities among children.”
I do know that access to healthcare for those who have Autism isn’t too good or as good as it should. And have not proof if the two are correlated.
Can you tell me, if not the mercury then what? What is your hypothesis as to why the rates continue to climb?
Whoa! I spend some time to respond with one comment, and then notice that multiple comments by three other people are made! You people are obsessed!
jen, make up your mind. Is it thimerosal or the MMR? Because the MMR never contained thimerosal (nor aluminum), and thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines almost eight years ago.
Plus the DTP was replaced by the DTaP several years ago (there is no “DPT” vaccine). Except that is not what I am asking about.
What real data do you have that shows the relative risks between the MMR vaccine and the actual diseases of measles, mumps and rubella? Please provide the journal, title, date and author of the study you use to back up your conclusion.
Though it can wait a day or so, I am going to bed.
David N. Brown, can I please step in for a second and can you explain this…
“The amount of ethylmercury to which children were exposed through vaccines prior to the 1999 announcement exceeded two safety thresholds established by the Federal Government for a closely related substance – methylmercury. While the Federal Government has established no safety threshold for ethylmercury, experts agree that the methylmercury guidelines are a good substitute. Federal health officials have conceded that the amount of thimerosal in vaccines exceeded the EPA threshold of 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of bodyweight. In fact, the amount of mercury in one dose of DTaP or Hepatitis B vaccines (25 micrograms each) exceeded this threshold many times over. Federal health officials have not conceded that this amount of thimerosal in vaccines exceeded the FDA’s more relaxed threshold of 0.4 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. In most cases, however, it clearly did. As evidence of the growing concern of the adverse effects of mercury, the FDA has recently changed its permissible dose of oral methylmercury from 0.4 microgram to 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day.”
http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/thimerosal.php
Chris, first of all Do’C was the first to say “DPT” and there is a DPT its diphtheria – tetanus – pertussis
Second,I’m not seeing where you think I’m flip-flopping but I think all vaccines are un-safe and I think there is no way to know which jab will be the jab that will do your child in until too late. I believe, as Dr. Bock states in his book, environmental & genetics set the stage and vaccines pull the trigger. I believe it is our each genetic make-up that does not allow certain individuals to handle vaccines causing a reaction, if you will, which can lead to Autism. The amount of vaccines, the ingredients, the viruses…everything about the vaccine including the number given at one time and the young age they begin administering all together all play a role in Autism.
And why do you think Thimersol was removed???? Who is telling you that load of crap???? In my state we had to FIGHT with APA and they finally agreed sometime last year.
And according to my info it shows DTaP, Hep B, Flu, HiB, Meningococcal,Tripedia. I’ll verify tomorrow if this is an old list or not.
Jen,
A. This is irrelevant to most childhood vaccinations after 2002.
B. This is completely irrelevant to autism
C. Methylmercury guidelines bear little to no relevance to ethylmercury (see Burbacher et al.)
D. Thimerosal in vaccines pre 1999 exceeding an EPA reference dose for methylmercury in fish consumption is meaningless
“EPA’s basis for regulating levels of methylmercury in fish is the reference dose – or RfD. The RfD is used as the standard for developing seafood consumption advice in the United States. Defined as an estimate of the highest daily dose of a chemical that the most sensitive in the population can be exposed to over a lifetime of exposure without experiencing an adverse effect, the reference dose for mercury in fish is 0.1 microgram per kilogram of body weight (bw) per day (µg/ kg-day) or 0.7 µg/kg bw/week. This regulatory standard was based on calculating the lowest dose at which a subtle subclinical effect was thought to occur (meaning the effect was not actually observed) and then building in a ten-fold safety factor.”
http://agresearch.umd.edu/cfnap/realmercuryfacts/about_mercury/understanding_dose.htm
Let’s do a little math, shall we?
Suppose we have a 10kg toddler who never ages, and stays at 10kg his entire life. Let’s also suppose that he is the most sensitive in the population. This means that with the ten-fold safety factor, it is expected that our toddler can safely (without adverse effect being observed) ingest 1 microgram daily every single day of his life. without the ten-fold safety factor, the number would be 10 micrograms daily every single day of his life. If that toddler lives to be 75, the reference dose is 27,375 micrograms over the lifetime (with the ten-fold safety factor), and 273,750 micrograms over the lifetime (without)
If you understand the relatively rapid clearance of ethylmercury compared to methylmercury, you’ll quickly see how silly this vaccine dose to EPA reference dose is. If you don’t, you’ll continue to think 200 micrograms back in 1999 is significant (or even scary). In reality, 200 micrograms ethylmercury is more likely insignificant.
I predict an appeal to “poor excretors” coming on.
Jen, please point this out. Then go ahead and explain how access to healthcare affects mortality rates.
jen,
Here’s my calculations, which I didn’t quite get right:
The maximum amount of mercury in thimerosal vaccines is a little short of 200 micrograms. Based on the FDA recommended maximum of 2 parts (methyl)mercury per million, the theoretical safety limit for a 10 kg (22 lb) child would be 10 times that amount.
The one caveat I will give is that the FDA figure is for the concentration of mercury that would make flesh unsafe to EAT. So, this doesn’t prove that a ca. 20 lb child would be unharmed by under 2000 micrograms, but one could serve an organism of equivalent mass for dinner without the FDA objecting.
Also, for anyone interested in serious professional analysis of what concentrations of heavy metals are “necessary to justify chelation, read this paper:
Succimer Chelation Improves Learning, Attention, and Arousal Regulation in Lead-Exposed Rats but Produces Lasting Cognitive Impairment in the Absence of Lead Exposure
Diane E. Stangle, Donald R. Smith, Stephane A. Beaudin, Myla S. Strawderman, David A. Levitsky, and Barbara J. Strupp
Reading through jen’s and Christel’s posts is like wading through mud. The logic jumps from point to point and it’s often hard to follow.
I just don’t have the time to argue too much anymore, but I would like to ask the three anti-vax commentators:
1. Do you think the Big ListTM is shocking or not?
2. Do you think that a parent should be allowed to “treat” their child with absolutely anything, even untested, synthetic organic chemicals, dozens of IVs, endoscopy, many blood draws, etc? Do you people have a limit that you think is too much “treatment” or are you willing to let a mother do anything because, after all, she is the mother? And because autism has wrecked her dreams, she’s entitled to do anything at all to “get her dreams back”?
3. Do you realize that autism is a developmental delay, not a developmental brick wall? Do you realize that children with autism do grow, develop and “get better” with age? Do you realize that this happens if the child is treated with love and respect and nurturing care, and that every developmental leap does not need to be ascribed to biomedical treatment X?
Finally, Christel, it’s SEIZURES (seizures) NOT seizers. The word has a U in it. Forgive me for being insulting, but every time you misspell this word (which describes a medical condition that your own child has), I picture you with less than a full set of teeth. You don’t enhance your credibility when you can’t spell.
Whew! That felt good. I’ve been wanting to say that for YEARS!
Guest Blogger…
1. Do you think the Big ListTM is shocking or not?
NO
2. Do you think that a parent should be allowed to “treat”
Parents do their own endoscopy’s??? Please show me the proof that parents go to such extreme lengths to “get their dreams back”? Using one of many posts is not convincing to me. And its a poor generalization. Show proof that all parents “treat” their child without the help of MD’s?
3. Do you realize that autism is a developmental delay, not a developmental brick wall?
If it were just a delay and nothing more then why are parents successful in biomed treatment?
I think if there are parents out there stating “hey, my kid got better doing this…” and my child was Autistic or I was Autistic I’d try some or all of the things mentioned. Depending on the treatments would depend on the need for a doctor, you don’t need a doctor for just diet change, etc.
David N. Brown, as Dr. Haley states in this video is that what they have found is the mix of thimersol with antibiotics enhances the toxicity. He also states thimersol is a “immune system surpressor”.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4841005852560432306&q=Boyd%20Haley#
Do’C, I apologize…it was me who first wrote “DPT”. It was getting late and my eyes were crossing.
Jen,
That you don’t think that list of treatments to include nicotine patches is wrong says everything reasonable people need to know about where you stand. Seriously, vaccines are bad, but all that other crap is okay. Glad to know where you stand. You’ll understand if we move as far away from where you stand as possible. Wow. But you go on and on about organic and diet, but all that crap on that list is okay by you.
Guest Blogger didn’t say the parents were doing the enodoscopy. And you know that. You seem to be incapable of directly addressing most questions placed to you. I was actually surprised to see a direct answer to number 1.
As to your answer to number 3, it reveals your complete lack of comprehension. Guest Blogger said delay, not brick wall. Autistic children improve with time. And funfamentally, you reveal here your complete lack of understanding of the scientific process. You rely on testimony. Not evidence. Testimony. Again, you’ll certainly understand as we step as far away from you as possible.
You’ve revealed a complete lack of understanding regarding scientific evidence, autism, medicine in general, and what constitutes abusive behavior. In one post. Wow. You go right ahead and listen to testimonials and think that’s evidence. And I’ll think you’re so far down the woo-trail that you wouldn’t know sound science if it walked up to you and calmly, reasonably and painstakingly explained itself to you. Oh wait, been there, done that.
Oh, Jen!
Dr. Haley. Well, there you go. Explains so much. And further reinforces my last post. Double wow.
I ask you all did you ever think it was more then just thimersol? Have you ever considered it was a combo of things in the vaccines paired up with the individual’s gene’s?
I ask again, if not vaccines or thimersol then what?? What is your hypothesis?? Why do you suppose the rate is climbing at crazy rates…currently 1 in 38 boys and 1 in 68 girls?? So, you believe it to be just a coincidence that the amount of vaccines administered by age 15months and the rate of Autism are going up at the same time?
Maybe your are right, maybe its wrong to put all the blame on thimersol when in reality it could be the viruses, other ingredients, or a combo of all??? For example, maybe the blame is being put on MMR not because of thimersol but should be the viruses that need further investigation. For example, In 1994 they increased the amount of viruses (practically overnight) from some 12,000 to 24,000.
KW, please tell me why do you suppose Autism rates are climbing? What do you think is going on?
I apologize, I didn’t notice any nicotine patches in that list.
KW, again, maybe I misunderstood but Guest Blogger says this…
“Do you think that a parent should be allowed to “treat” their child with absolutely anything, even untested, synthetic organic chemicals, dozens of IVs, endoscopy, many blood draws, etc?”
He brought up endoscopy’s which confused me too as to why it was mentioned.
“Autistic children improve with time.” I’m not discounting this but where is the proof of this? What is your definition of “improve”. Does that definition vary between person to person?
Yes, I do listen to testimonials. I keep an open mind. Anything is possible. Maybe if you got your head out of your ass and removed the blinders maybe you could see that too. I have no problem reading all your scientific data and “evidence”. I will keep an open mind. But common sense will always come into play.
Anything is possible?
Jen, if nothing else, you have given me something to chuckle about, so thank you, sincerely. If I get my head out MY ass. Oh, man, that’s good. Anything’s possible. Yup, like the rates of autism not actually skyrocketing, like the number of autistic adults also being 1 in a 100 as it is in kids. Wow. Anything’s possible, but somehow magically testimonials have more weight than scientific evidence with you. But it’s my head that’s up my ass. Good to know.
And what’s going on in India? If vaccines are the reason these diseases are eradicated then why can’t India get rid of Polio???
So, according to you the rates are not climbing? So, did the rates ever climb according to you? If so, what is your reason behind why?
And KW there is a TON of scientific evidence out there on the vaccine ineffectiveness and harmful ingredients you just choose not to believe.
Bet you can’t wait and are sooo excited to get the Squalene-filled flu jabs for you and your family!!
Click to access SqualeneAutotoxicant-whitehouse_beck_matsumoto.pdf
It doesn’t matter what scientific data is set forth you will always discount the who’s and what’s cause your head is up your…
Jen,
I’m just devestated we’re not going to end up friends after all of this. Your sense of moral superiority and sense of certainty are darn near awe-inspiring. You, again, listen to woo and charlatans and mistake that for science and hold it with absolute conviction. Go right ahead and rely on testimonials over science. Go right ahead and think that vaccines are bad and that my head is up my ass. Won’t hurt my feelings a bit. Did you think it would? I’ve already weighted your words the level of importance they should have. Had you presented a single bit of scientific evidence rather than relying on discredited scientists and the parotting back of woo from organizations like GR, well, perhaps there could have been reasoned debate.
jen, I know it is an article of faith with you that the autism rate is climbing, skyrocketing, through the roof. And that means that you must seek out a cause.
I understand that. I used to believe it was true too. But it’s not. Have you read the recent study that has shown that 1 in 100 adults in the UK are on the spectrum? There’s also tons of other evidence out there that shows that when you actually LOOK for ASD in adults, you find a lot of it. The problem is that most adults were born before the concept of ASD even existed. They didn’t get a diagnosis, because it didn’t exist when they were 3.
And confusing this is that you would like us to show you only the most severe cases of ASD, (poop smearing etc) and you want adults with severe ASD to look like children with severe ASD. You fail to accept that ASD is a spectrum. Even “Saul” is quite high functioning, for example – he speaks, he has hyperlexia, he interacts with his teachers (even at age 5).
Well, I have news for you. People with ASD progress and grow, and change. If you will only accept that poop-smearing, head-banging (or whatever your current horror story to elicit sympathy is) adults are on the spectrum, then you must also accept that the rate of ASD is nowhere near 1 in 100 for children either.
If you manage to accept the idea that there is no epidemic, then you can drop your frantic search for a cause. You could try it – it’s very liberating, releases you from the urge to experiment on your child, and allows you to actually spend quality time with him/her. You may just find that approach results in better progress than you ever imagined. It certainly has for me.
Guest Blogger,
Actually, according to Jen, she doesn’t have a child on the spectrum. Nor does it appear that she is even arguing her child is vaccine damaged. She has a child with food sensitivities. That’s it; she has a child who needs a restricted diet. So, I find her paranoia and need to villify actual parents of children on the spectrum who disagree with her on vaccination and the need to wallow in woo interesting, to say the least. Perhaps she could explain why she is so invested in this conversation? Oh, I know, save the world and all, I’m sure, from big bad vaccines and support the parents who want to use untested, dangerous treatments on their children to cure them, because after all, they heard somebody say it worked.
Guest Blogger, KW spelled devestated (devastated) wrong! Aren’t you going to attack him/her as you did to CK???
KW you are if there were such a degree in the twisting of words by golly you would hold the highest!!! And how can we debate if you refuse to present any evidence or data on your behalf?? Maybe you discount all of my info shared here but at least I’ve presented something. You’ve dodged and/or ignored all questions, twisted words, and refuse to show any data. I must say your buddy’s put up a good fight and have been able to provide some info behind their why’s and how’s but your, like I stated earlier, bark is way worse then your bite. And until you can fight for yourself & bring something to the table you wouldn’t be able to sell me on anything.
Guest Blogger, interesting info about how the rates are misconstrued. I’m not opposed to that info, I feel that happens a lot…numbers are misconstrued often in studies. Can you please provide those studies that point out Autism is not an epidemic. I’m interested in looking into that further.
KW said: “Actually, according to Jen, she doesn’t have a child on the spectrum. Nor does it appear that she is even arguing her child is vaccine damaged. She has a child with food sensitivities. That’s it; she has a child who needs a restricted diet.”
Again, thanks for twisting of my words and assuming…two things you are awesome at! You are correct my child is not on the spectrum. HOWEVER, he was on his way until I stopped the vaccinations. And I’ve never said he was or he wasn’t vaccine damaged. He does have food sensitivities and yeast issues, yes. And FYI, yes, I do believe his issues are because of vaccines.
Oh, crap, Jen, you wrote buddy’s and then used their. Oh noes.
I haven’t dodged any questions, although you have, and you have contradicted yourself in multiple places. And since there is absolutely no scientific evidence that vaccines can lead to autism nor food sensitivities, well, again, you’ll just have to forgive me for not giving your testimonial the weight you think it accords. And for not feeling the need to give into your demands to provide evidence that you are wrong. Firstly, that evidence is discussed on LBRB in multiple posts, so you could have a look around since you are so new to it. Secondly, you have shown a complete disdain for anything that contradicts your worldview.
But it’s lovely to see you have cast yourself as the person who saved her child from autism’s clutches. Wow. I had no idea it was a gradual descent into autism caused by multiple vaccinations. I thought, based on your buddies (used that right, didn’t I?), it was a sudden regression into it. I stand corrected. You’re not sure what it is about vaccines that does it, but it’s something and it’s over time. Gotcha.
Hey, you know it’s not my first time to be called a word twister. Wow, that really hurts my psyche.
I can’t tell you how devastated (there, happy?) I am that we’re not going to be best buds over this. Really. Weeping into the keyboard as I type. 🙂 I wonder if one of the two of us is a bit more intensely affected by this “dialogue” than the other (ooh, Jake from AoA’s right, you can signal your disagreement with a term by putting into quotes!)?
Seriously, you can’t be on your way to being on the spectrum. You can be on your way to making an ass of yourself, though.
You’ve made plenty of assumptions in your posts; people do that. Usually it is done on the basis of the text provided. You stated your child wasn’t on the spectrum. I dismissed your assertion that the child was on the way to being on the spectrum because it was bunk. You didn’t claim the child was vaccine damaged, although I suppose I could have assumed based on your ridiculous claim that vaccines are bad that you had some axe to grind.
And it would be easier to make what you might consider more accurate assumptions if you were consistent in your claims.
Just figured out, my calculation (which I hadn’t posted anywhere else before) is in error. By the FDA standard, it would take 1000 micrograms/kg for flesh to become toxic. So, for that to occur with a 10 kg organism, it would have to absorb 10,000 micrograms of mercury, or more than fifty times the amount that ever was in vaccines.
My bad.
jen asked for papers showing a lack of epidemic. Well, the most recent is described at this blog. Just change the 3144 in the URL is the present post to 3203
That post actually links to the study, so you can read the original study, not just someone’s interpretation of it.
Or you can try these articles:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513984
Click to access Epidemic.pdf
Actually, there’s a lot more. Just have a look at pubmed.gov and search for “autism epidemiology”
jen:
Big on changing the subject? Also, there is no comparison between the USA and India. My brother recently lived a couple of years there, and level of public health competency there pales in comparison to what you are used to in the USA. My brother lived in a nice house in a middle class neighborhood, and even then they had a distiller in the kitchen to get potable water (water is only available a couple hours of day, so those with money have pumps to pull water to store, the pump also pulls water from the sewage pipes).
Because of the cost, WHO is using the oral polio vaccine. Do to the general lack of sanitation the kids all seem to have diarrhea, so the vaccine cannot stay in the gut long enough to give immunity.
It is one virologist’s opinion that WHO should switch to IPV, but that is much more expensive. I heard this on the This Week in Virology podcast (I don’t remember which particular week, but one of those might have it).
Now would you be so kind as to tell me what the relative risks are between the MMR vaccine and actually getting measles, mumps and rubella? Please include the journal, title, date and authors of the paper used to support your conclusion. Thank you.
I would also like to know what paper has been published that has replicated Wakefield’s dozen case studies. Thank you.
“(Boyd Haley) also states thimersol is a `immune system surpressor’.”
I’m inclined to dismiss this at face value. After its mercury content, the most heavily-criticized aspect of thimerosal has been the allergic reactions it produces. (In my opinion, this point has been made strongly enough to justify removing thimerosal from use, independent of controversial claims about ethylmercury.) An allergen is, of course, the opposite of an immune system suppressor.
I must say that christel, jen, et al appear to have read a great deal of literature, probably mostly “anti-vax””, but failed to get a “general” understanding of the relevant fields or to apply the skills of data analysis and synthesis.
Jen, you really should read the entire report from which you picked the above quote.
http://www.ahrq.gov/qual/nhdr03/fullreport/priorit.htm
But, that would be just one baby step for you.
Your claim that not much of any data exists is pure nonsense. Lots of data exists – making sense of it is a challenge though. It wouldn’t surprise me if you lack the willingness, ability, or time, to delve any deeper. Here are some additional starting point sources, in case you’re ever inclined to do some additional reading on the subject.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs
http://mchlibrary.info/KnowledgePaths/kp_infmort.html
http://pubmed.gov
http://www.hhs.gov
http://www.nichd.nih.gov
Try not to forget that access to health care is not just child access to health care. Look in to access to prenatal care (and low birth weight too).
…not that child mortality has anything to do with autism or that high vaccine coverage and scope has anything other than an inverse relationship with childhood mortality in the real world.
Wow, ignorance is bliss, isn’t it Jen.
If we assume, for the sake of argument, that your completely unfounded assertion of an ill-defined “the rates” continue to climb, has one iota of merit, you’ll be able to answer a very simple question:
If thimerosal had anything to do with autism, do the toxicokinetics for elemental mercury, ethylmercury, and methylmercury, match up so that corresponding reductions (thimerosal post 2002) and any claimed increases produce near linear growth[1] in the 3-5 year old autism caseload cohort in California over the past 10-12 years?
1 http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/65/1/19/YOA70046F3
I read a good portion of this and to be honest most of this seriously
TL;DR
I can explain the whole thread in two sentances. “UR RONG, MARY DID WHUT’S BEST 4 HUR SON” “NO U, MARY HURT HUR SON!”
“NO U
“NO U!”
Lather, Rinse and Repeat.
Oh don’t get me started on the self-dx guy who popped in. Lol ok man.
Aw, shucks… you missed the part where I kept asking the same question, and not really getting a good answer! I asked lots of questions, and did not get much in the way of answers (and I did answer at least one).
Though I am curious if Christel can answer this question I posed up thread:
(my apologies if this shows up twice due to a cut and paste error, I requested a delete)
Aw, shucks… you missed the part where I kept asking the same question, and not really getting a good answer! I asked lots of questions, and did not get much in the way of answers (and I did answer at least one).
Though I am curious if Christel can answer this question I posed up thread:
Nightstorm – the time for you to add substantive content is right now. Otherwise your comment is deleted and you get blocked m’kay funny guy?
Do’C…you quoted me…” Can you tell me, if not the mercury then what? What is your hypothesis as to why the rates continue to climb?
And in response said…
“Wow, ignorance is bliss, isn’t it Jen.”
I was asking an honest question and wasn’t trying to be sarcastic.
I have serious questions, and you seem to all be in the know, please explain to me the following…
1. You’ve made it very clear you believe the cause of Autism is not associated with thimerosal via vaccines. But what do you suppose the climb in the Autism rates are associated with, environment, genetics only, other ingredients in vaccines, etc? I understand you feel it is not an epidemic but do you agree its been the #’s have been “climbing” over the years? I think the studies have debunked the genetic claim but I’m sure you provide with me some study from the government proving otherwise.
2. Even though thimerosal is still an ingredient in many vaccines, what is/was the reasoning behind, after all the years of using thimerosal, to remove and replace so quickly?
3. And what was it replaced with…Aluminum. Do you feel there is enough evidence via studies that prove Aluminum is safe for all who get jabbed?
3. As Chris stated many times he feels the MMR vaccine prevents a very large number of deaths and thus is a necessary vaccine. What about (and this question is directed to all who wish to answer) about the necessity of the Hep B vaccine? Prevnar? Chic Pox? I’m sure there are a few others added to the list that I, along with many, question whether or not the vaccines are really necessary.
4. What are your thoughts on batches of vaccines that have contamination issues and how that may effect their clients?
5. Do any feel there is any level of corruption either with the government (FDA & CDC) and/or pharmaceutical companies? If so, do you think that would cause concern with data and numbers set forth?
6. You guys are big into the numbers game…explain to me how provoking an un-natural immune response to get 70-90% immunity is better then having a natural immune response to get 100% immunity?
7. Adding to the number 6 question, I view vaccines keeping the big picture in mind…looking at each part to see the whole. From my logic, I don’t see the benefit of injecting man-made and other ingredients, which have no business being injected into the body, along with a virus no one knows for sure that person will ever be exposed to to get 70-90% immunity. It just doesn’t make sense. I also think about how, in the instance we were to contract an illness, we will have 100% immunity and that particular person will never get again. I also think about mother’s being able to pass those immunities onto her child.
8. Adding to number 7, its obvious from earlier posts you don’t believe our kids today are being poisoned in the name of keeping them healthy. But we really only discussed Autism. Do you feel side effects like Asthma, ear infections, seizures, GB syndrome, seasonal & food allergies are a or can be a direct consequence of vaccines? If so, are you ok with children in masses having these issues over the possibility of contracting 1 or 2 of the illnesses the vaccines are to prevent?
9. Adding to that…Chris you posted a link, a link with .gov, which whatever but call me crazy or a conspiracy theorist but I don’t have much faith in our government and tend not to trust much of their data. Either way, I read thru the article and I’m not sure what you are expecting me to get out of something that was done in ’83 and used estimated data??
10. Going back to #5, it just popped into my head sorry, I think about smoking alot when I think about vaccines. I think about how the tobacco industry kept the link between smoking and cancer out of public view for a very long time. I think about the fact government knew but did nothing. I think about all the commercials and ad’s…the doctors who said on their print ad “Camel is the brand they smoke”. I think about how before we all knew the hidden dangers smoking was the thing to do. All the mother’s who smoked while pregnant. So sad. Anyway, its not a question but more of an example for those who find it odd anti-vaxxers have an issue with big pharma and government. History shows us how money can change the skew on things.
11. So back to questions, as we all know the reason for the added adjuvants are to stimulate an immune response. But do you feel its the right immune response…Th2? How do you feel about the body repeatedly producing a Th2 response?
I thought this was an interesting article in regards to the CDC making the 1 in 100 change…
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-9121-LA-Special-Needs-Kids-Examiner~y2009m9d26-CDC-quietly-revises-autism-numbers-to-1-of-US-children
This doesn’t have anything to do with my questions but thought it was interesting…the last few paragraghs are very interesting.
12. I don’t want to assume so I will ask…is it safe to state no one here believes a parent who claims their child is doing better via biomed or diet treatments is telling the truth? Because why, the research says its not possible?
13. Every link or data presented by me, CK or PD has been totally disregarded and laughed at…what makes your data so special? Is it because the studies are conducted by governmental employees? I’m not being sarcastic either, I’m really trying to understand why you have so much regard for the info you presented but no one elses?