There have been two main theories linking vaccines to an “epidemic” of autism. Both theories have been studied. Both have been heard in the courts. Neither theory had a sound scientific basis and epidemiological data has shown that neither theories explained the increase in autism prevalence in the last 20 years.
First it was proposed that the MMR vaccine resulted in persistent measles infections that lodged in the intestines of children leading to “leaky guts” and that harmful substances were leaked into the blood, traveled to the brain and resulted in autism symptoms. This was proposed by Dr. Andrew Wakefield and has since been shown in epidemiological and other studies to be unsound. (This theory morphed for the Omnibus Autism Proceeding, the vaccine court. The argument there was that the measles virus itself traveled to the brain. Again, it is not supported by epidemiological data and is not scientifically sound).
The second theory was that mercury in vaccines from a compound called thimerosal caused autism. In that theory, it was proposed that autism symptoms were similar to mercury poisoning (autism was a “novel” form of mercury poisoning). This theory was not scientifically sound as autism symptoms are not like mercury poisoning. Previous epidemiological studies have also shown thimerosal was not behind the rising numbers of people diagnosed with autism.
In 2007 there was a study which looked at 1,000 kids aged 7-10 to see if various neurological symptoms were more prevalent in those who received higher exposures to thimerosal. Orac at Respectful Insolence blogged it and Kev posted that piece here on LeftBrainRightBrain as well. That study showed indications that in some measures children may perform more poorly with thimerosal exposure. It also showed that in some measures children may perform better with thimerosal exposure. This mixed result is (a) not very strong in either direction and (b) not very surprising when you look at a lot of different measures at the same time. Chance will result in some measures positive, some negative.
The 2007 study was published in the New England Journal of Medicine as Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years, by Thompson, et al.. (Thompson (2007))
What was missing in that report was a direct study of autism. Given the numbers of children (1,047) selected, there would only be about 10 kids with ASD expected in the group. This is too few for a strong conclusion on autism. At the time of that study it was noted that another study would follow concentrating on autism alone.
That study has just been published in the journal Pediatrics as Prenatal and Infant Exposure to Thimerosal From Vaccines and Immunoglobulins and Risk of Autism. They studied “256 children with ASD and 752 controls matched by birth year, gender, and [managed care organizations]”. I will give some details here. I expect the treatment on the Science Based Medicine and Steven Novela’s Neurologica blogs to cover the science thoroughly should you wish more detail.
Short answer: thimerosal exposure doesn’t cause an increased risk of autism. Neither thimerosal from vaccines given to the children nor thimerosal from products like Rhogam are behind the increase in autism prevalence we have seen.
It is worth noting that the authors looked at autism with and without regression.
Here is the abstract:
OBJECTIVE: Exposure to thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative that is used in vaccines and immunoglobulin preparations, has been hypothesized to be associated with increased risk of autism spectrum disorder (ASD). This study was designed to examine relationships between prenatal and infant ethylmercury exposure from thimerosal containing vaccines and/or immunoglobulin preparations and ASD and 2 ASD subcategories: autistic disorder (AD) and ASD with regression.
METHODS: A case-control study was conducted in 3 managed care organizations (MCOs) of 256 children with ASD and 752 controls matched by birth year, gender, and MCO. ASD diagnoses were validated through standardized in-person evaluations. Exposure to thimerosal in vaccines and immunoglobulin preparations was determined from electronic immunization registries, medical charts, and parent interviews. Information on potential confounding factors was obtained from the interviews and medical charts. We used conditional logistic regression to assess associations between ASD, AD, and ASD with regression and exposure to ethylmercury during prenatal, birth-to-1 month, birthto-7-month, and birth-to-20-month periods.
RESULTS: There were no findings of increased risk for any of the 3 ASD outcomes. The adjusted odds ratios (95% confidence intervals) for ASD associated with a 2-SD increase in ethylmercury exposure were 1.12 (0.83–1.51) for prenatal exposure, 0.88 (0.62–1.26) for exposure from birth to 1 month, 0.60 (0.36–0.99) for exposure from birth to 7 months, and 0.60 (0.32– 0.97) for exposure from birth to 20 months.
CONCLUSIONS: In our study of MCO members, prenatal and early-life exposure to ethylmercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines and immunoglobulin preparations was not related to increased risk ASDs. Pediatrics 2010;126:656–664
My guess is that there will be much discussion of the methods on many websites. For now, here are the data from Table 2 and Table 3.
Table 2 (click to enlarge)
Table 3 (click to enlarge)
As with Thompson (2007) the authors will make longer reports available on their website and will allow access to the data.
This study is not the first of its kind. Here are a few of the large studies which have shown a lack of association between thimerosal exposure and autism in the past.
Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
There are more.
One question is whether this will finally quiet those claiming an autism epidemic caused by mercury in vaccines. Unfortunately, I sincerely doubt it. This study included Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds in the acknowledgments. Ms. Bernard was also involved in the Thompson study of 2007. At that time she was listed as a “dissenting” member of the team. She submitted a letter to the NEJM discussing the reasons for her dissention, Perhaps the lack of the word “dissenting” this time is a good sign. I’ll wait and see.
The main question is how much impact this will have on the next generation of families with autistic children. I can’t but wonder that the age of the mercury hypothesis has seen its peak. Not only in research but in general acceptance.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Hello tobacco science.
I look forward to reading the study and other bloggers’ analysis of it.
I think we all know that this will do nothing but confirm for most folks over at AoA that all researchers are in the pocket of big pharma; otherwise, the results would have proven Blaxill and Olmsted’s love of insisting it’s the mercury.
In fact this information proves absolutely nothing but I am with Blaxill and Olmsted and I love insisting that it is mercury or something damned near close to it. So much so that I offer $100 to a charity of their choice for anyone able to demonstrate that there is an autistic person anywhere who was not exposed to vaccines or vaccine materials or whose mother during pregnancy was not so exposed. The offer will grow the longer it remains open.
Tony Bateson
Oxford UK
OK you have no idea what you are talking about. the safety of Thimerasol in children has NEVER been studied. Vaccines do cause Autism and the Vaccine Court agrees. Ever hear of The Pollings?????
#fail
@ Kelly:
Hannah Poling does NOT have autism. She has Landau-Kleffner Syndrome, a mitochondrial disorder. As for your claim that the safety of thimerosal has not been studied, did you read the article above? It clearly mentions a study looking precisely at this. Your rant is not even wrong.
Kev is right, you fail.
Julian Frost,
I don’t recall any discussion of Hannah Poling having Landau-Kleffner syndrome. This has been proposed (in the literature, by a neurologist) for Jenny McCarthy’s son, though. I also don’t recall reading that L-K syndrome is a mitochondrial disorder.
Kelly, the study being discussed does just that, study the safety of thimerosal in children, along with numerous epidemiological studies that were cited. If there was any indication that thimerosal caused autism, it would have shown up.
The NVICP does NOT agree on any level. All of the test cases involving a thimerosal causation have been denied and the burden of proof in a vaccine case is much lower than the scientific standard of proof. Hannah Poling was compensated for encephalopathy, a table injury and nothing to do with thimerosal.
Science Mom,
“Hannah Poling was compensated for encephalopathy, a table injury and nothing to do with thimerosal.”
Correct. I believe the wording was specific that this case was listed as an MMR table injury. As I know you know, MMR does not contain thimerosal.
Fail what? Vaccines do cause Autism period. And Hannah does have Autism. Autism and Autism like symptoms are the same thing. Autism is not a Disease but a description of symptoms. Wake up Sheepie this is happening to 1 in 58 boys now. It is not genetics. Epidemics can not be genetic. Everyone knows that.
Kelly,
the study above *is* a study on the safety of thimerosal exposure from vaccines in children. The studies I linked to (and more) *are* studies on the safety of thimerosal.
Genetics can cause an “epidemic”. About 11% of the increase in the autism rate in California has been attributed to genetics.
There can still be discussions on whether there is a “real” increase in the number of autistic people. The point of this study–and the others like it–is that the search needs to go beyond thimerosal. That hypothesis was wrong. Thimerosal exposure did not cause the increase in autism prevalence. Groups that claim to be focused on environmental causes of autism need to broaden their outlook. Whatever the case for the increase, it isn’t MMR and it isn’t thimerosal.
Reading comprehension fail. It is like you have not read anything above.
Though if you do wish to support your contention, try to present some actual science. Argument by assertion is not very effective.
If you wish to discuss the Poling case, then go over the the article just before this one.
Tony, What you seem to be suggesting is not only that vaccines cause autism, but that they are the ONLY cause of autism. Over the years on various blogs, I have read comments from parents that have, or know of, an unvaccinated child who has been diagnosed with autism. Just a quick search I did came up with multiple comments from parents or acquaintances of autistic children who had NOT been vaccinated (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/archive/index.php/t-254000.html)
What parents need is specific scientific information and not inaccurate assumptions. I assure you, not ALL parents with autistic children believe their child’s autism was caused by vaccines. I know many parents of autistic children who value vaccines. Perhaps a visit to vaccinateyourbaby.org will enable parents to view the Frequently Asked Questions that address vaccine concerns. Or if your looking for a perspective from the Autism community, try their latest blog post at http://autismsciencefoundation.wordpress.com/.
Tony Bateson,
there was a recent discussion on the MB12/Valtrex group discussing children who are autistic and unvaccinated. A number of parents discussed their own children who met these criteria. Perhaps you could contact them. I am sure at least one of them would welcome your money.
I approved Tony’s comment for the sole reason is that I want him to reap the folly of his stance. If anyone would like to follow up on Tony’s offer I will pass on his email address.
Kev,
Tony Bateson has failed to follow up on multiple blogs where people mentioned cases of autism without vaccines.
Jake,
You wave this study away as ‘tobacco science’ – care to explain what that means and why this science falls under its auspices?
Very true Sully, very true.
Hello friends,
As is my wont, I’m keeping a list of blog & news responses to the Price et al paper.
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2010/09/important-new-paper-again-maybe-finally-no-link-between-vaccination-and-thimerosal-in-vaccines-not-c.html
This study doesnt prove that Vaccines dont cause Autism at all. It just simply p[roves that More or less Thimerasol has the same effect. I dont think Vaccines are the only cause but they are a big cause for many children including mine.
Kelly,
autistic children and non-autistic children received the same number of vaccines.
There is a nice book on the National Childhood Encephalopathy Study. You can search it on google books
http://books.google.com/books?id=Dcq3PX-3l3AC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22National+Childhood+Encephalopathy+Study%22&hl=en&ei=42-OTO3XFIKqsAOzteGeBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
There is only one hit for the word “autism”. That is a reference. Encephalopathy is not a synonym for autism.
Thimerosal content in vaccines is way down. Laura Hewitson measured it for her study and found the amount in the HepB vaccine was 1000x smaller than it used to be.
Jake Crosby reflexively comments:
Not that I expect a coherent answer, but I wonder if Mr. Crosby would care to share with us why he thinks this study is “tobacco science”? Is it that the results disagree with his biases? Or is it that the study wasn’t done by someone vetted by AoA or GR? Or – and I hesitate to even suggest this – does he have some rational reason to believe that this study is fraudulent?
RE: Landau-Kleffner sundrome,
There is currently no known pathophysiology for Landau-Kleffner syndrome (LKS), which was first described in 1957. It appears to be sporadic (meaning that it doesn’t run in families) and no gene or chromosomal region has yet been associated with the disorder. As far as I know, nobody has hypothesised that LKS is a mitochondrial disorder.
That said, Ms. Poling has a well-documented mitochondrial disorder and probably can’t be said to meet the diagnostic criteria for autism for that reason. Encephalopathies of every type and degree have been reported with mitochondrial dysfunction, and what Ms. Poling has is most accurately an “encephalopathy” – which happens to be a “table injury” for the MMR, which is why her parents were given the award.
Prometheus
Also Science Mom Encephalopathy is a side effect from Vaccines. It says so on the insert that comes with each shot. The DTAP insert lists Autism as a side effect. People can keep lying but the Truth will be heard. I have talked to the CDC myself and they didnt take Thimerasol out of vaccinations. It is still in 33 of the 56 kids get by age 6
Tony Bateson wrote:
Oh, come on—you offered $1,000 over at AoA! However, Cynthia Cournoyer may already have claimed your prize, as she wrote in the same comments thread: “Tony Bateson, I have a never-vaccinated autistic adult child. Documented.”
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/09/autism-smackdown-the-frightened-vs-the-titan.html#comments
Are you going to pay her, or will you try to wriggle out of it by claiming that her child was exposed to “vaccine materials” because aluminum is the third-most common element in the earth’s crust?
Tony Bateson:
So, Tony, are those goal posts heavy? Did you finally realize after being told over a dozen times that Kim Stagliano’s youngest daughter is not vaccinated?
Kelly: Argument by blatant assertion after being told it doesn’t work makes you look like you have some kind of reading disability.
Nice Chris very Classy…. What the hell is wrong with you?? never mind, I dont care. I know what happened to my only child.
Sullivan this is not a Thimerasol safety study.
Yes I did offer $1,000 on AoA and I am free to offer what I like. The point is it is nonsense to say I do not follow up, I have done so in one or two cases only because it remains a fact that amongst the many hudreds of thousands of unvaccinated autistic people only two,three or four have ever been pointed out to me. I am always being asked to prove there are none but even me, fool that I am, knows that is literally impossible. On the other hand proving the existence of one – only one – should be possible. Clearly this has to be verified by an independent third party and to encourage anyone to come forward with checkable evidence I raise my offer to $1,000. I am happy to put my money where my mouth is!
Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.
Sure, sure, Kelly. It is all about you. What you say must be true because you said it. Not.
Repeating something does not make it true. Provide evidence for your statements. Especially that the paper was not a thimerosal safety study. Bring out exactly what points they got wrong, how they specifically did not measure the amount of the thimersal in the vaccine correctly, or that they did not use children with the proper diagnosis.
“Less”, including none. Note that in Table 2, the minimum thimerosal exposure was zero, both for the ASD and non-ASD groups, at all age cut-offs.
Statistically, that’s not conclusive, but in general I find your “no discernible dose-response” hypothesis unconvincing.
My point is this, this study doesnt prove either way that Vaccines or thimerasol can cause or dont cause Autism. Thimerasol has not been tested in children for saftey at all. and FYI Chris saying Not is so 1990’s.
Joseph even the shots that are supposed to be Thimerasol free contain thimerasol. It can not be all filtered out.
But see, Kelly, if we were to accept your fantastic ideas, we’d have to believe that 1% of the mercury that is found in a tuna sandwich can make a child autistic, and 100 times that amount can make a child autistic just as effectively (no more, no less.)
I’d much rather believe in Santa Claus.
Joseph it isnt the same kind of Mercury.
I’m not a newbie at this. I know that. The point about how ridiculous the dose-response would have to be stands.
Sticking with the “thimerosal causes autism” is so 1990s! It has essentially been gone from vaccines since at least 2002.
But first, Kelly, in order to agree to your hypothesis that this study is not about thimerosal safety because there might be a trace: it would have to start with showing that vaccines are linked to autism. Which has not been shown with any real science.
Also, methylmercury is actually more dangerous than ethylmercury. So if there was the same about of each type, the methylmercury case would show more damage. This was shown by a SafeMinds funded study by Burbacher. A study where they had to add thimerosal to the vaccines because they could not find any with thimerosal.
Sallie Bernard (who helped design this study, along with the other Thompson study) sent out a call to help find some. The message is still available online:
Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
From: Sally Bernard
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html
Hi all:
A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.
Thank you.
Sallie Bernard
Executive Director
Safe Minds
Sticking with the “thimerosal causes autism” is so 1990s! It has essentially been gone from vaccines since at least 2002.
Tony. My 14 year old daughter has been diagnosed on the autism spectrum. She was not exposed to mercury in the womb and she has never been vaccinated.
Please make the check out to Kev for the support of this website.
Thank you.
You don’t say. We know this Kelly and incidentally, encephalopathies occur at rates orders of magnitude more with the corresponding wild-type diseases than they do with vaccines. Additionally, do you have any idea how many more cases of autism annually there would be if not for the rubella vaccine?
No, it doesn’t. Package inserts list all reported observations that took place during clinical trials, that should not be confused with vaccine side effect.
Fascinating, please share the amounts of thimerosal and which vaccines that they are in.
I dont have time to post every bit of proof I have. I have to take care of my Son, he is disabled now because of these horrible, lethal vaccines. peace and I hope that anyone that is searching for answers can find the truth.
Science mom you can call the CDC too. They will go shot by shot if you ask them nicely and give you the amount of Thimerasol in each one. Their number is on their website.
Kelly,
the CDC will not support your claim. For one thing, you claim “It is still in 33 of the 56 kids get by age 6”.
Even by Generation Rescue’s counting, children get 36 vaccine doses by age of 6.
One can find the list
28 vaccines standard, plus the flu shots (which don’t have a very high uptake, but we will include them). Flu shots are two the first time, one a year after that. That makes for 7 flu shot.
That gives 35 vaccines, if I am correct.
Of those, 3 are the oral Rotavirus vaccine, no thimerosal in any version. 2 are MMR, which have no thimerosal in any version.
That would mean 30 vaccines might be able to have thimerosal.
Here is the list that people were asking you to supply
http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm096228.htm#t1
All of them have zero or “trace” amounts of thimerosal.
You are welcome to correct me but, perhaps, you might consider that the information you have been given is incorrect and you can set aside the thought that your son’s disability was caused by thimerosal?
Autism is caused by damage to the brain/immune system. This most often occurs from the massive injection of toxic chemicals from the insane vaccine schedule of the USA. It can also occur from congenital infection… infections transferred in utero. A woman with late stage neuroborreliosis can give birth to an infected child that will develop (without vaccines) autism symptoms clear enough to be diagnosed. So some at least of these non-vaxed kids could have this disease which is epidemic second only to HIV/AIDS.
Also, the reason, in my opinion, most people balk at the idea that we could be damaging our children via vaccines is because they are one or more of the following:
a. A parent who refuses to believe they have been hurting their child to the point that they will continue to do it… just to protect their own ego.
b. A doctor/health professional or loved one of a doctor who refuses to believe that said doctor could be tricked by the medical establishment into believing that vaccines are helpful and non-toxic. To admit this would be to admit you were ignorant. Ego again. Better off hurting children.
c. A parent who will not stop vaccinating because then they are on the ‘fringe’ of society. The parent and children will be weird and life will be made more difficult by the med establishment and school system. The kids would be healthier than all the others but then the parent would only have REAL friends instead of huge numbers of Sheep Friends. Bummer!
d. So blindly trusting of the government and people. So ignorant to the fact that corporations exist to make money. Second in line is maybe to do something positive if we’re lucky. In the case of vaccine manufacturers, the second in line has gone out the window a LONG time ago. The government has opened the door to them and has let them inject our kids with toxic useless crap. They don’t care.
Denial is their strongest weapon and it definitely works extremely well. Your children will learn the truth eventually… will they despise you because the obvious was right in front of you and you just ignored it… and maybe even ranted on Twitter or Facebook or elsewhere on the Internet FOR vaccinating? Maybe they won’t hate you because they will be Autistic zombies or dead way before their time. But maybe you can live with that.
Jennifer,
nice judgment there. I guess I am just too involved in my own ego to consider that vaccines hurt my child. Oh, wait. I did consider it. Then I did a lot of reading. Then I found out that the vaccine-causation theories were based on really bad science.
I don’t know what value it serves you to call other autism parents ignorant and so ego-centric that they would harm their own children. Oh, and we are in denial as well and we would rather have our children disabled than be considered weird. You might want to think that one over once or twice and see the logical fallacy you created (that is unless you think that having a disabled kid puts one in the mainstream of society….)
“Toxic useless crap”? Wow. I guess it is useless that my kid didn’t have to risk permanent harm or death by a vast multitude of infectious diseases?
Why do you automatically discount the hours and hours many of us have put into understanding the vaccine-causation theories? It is easier to label us as “ego” driven than to have a real conversation.
No Sullivan I know my Son’s regressive Autism was caused by Vaccines and I can not wait to have our day in Court. We have also been told by 3 Dr’s and lots of testing that this in fact is what happened to our Son. It isnt a thought but a fact a very very sad fact….. And thanks Jennifer you are a smart Woman.
Kelly,
I could easily get more than three doctors to tell me my kid’s autism was caused by vaccines. I’ve had one DAN person tell me that without ever seeing my kid or the medical record.
Much of the specific information you provided in this discussion was wrong. I am continually asked to be “open minded” about vaccines. Perhaps the fact that your information was incorrect could at least bring you to question, to be open minded. That’s all I was suggesting.
There is no test which shows an individual’s autism was caused by vaccine. Unless you would like to point to one you are using? A lot of DAN doctors use a “chelation challenge” test. This is where a chelator is given to a child and they measure the mercury in the urine afterwards. Those trained and actually working in toxicology have stated this test is useless and carries some danger.
Why should we believe either Kelly or Jennifer?
“Denial is their strongest weapon and it definitely works extremely well.”
I believe the word you were looking for was ‘my’…
Jennifer, you seem to have all the answers: My son had neonatal seizures that were fortunately controlled by medication. He was weaned off of them when he was a year old. About three months later he got a serious viral infection that caused a grand mal seizure.
He is permanently disabled, he will never live on his own. He is 22 years old, which means he did not either the HepB or Hib vaccines. Exactly how was his disability that caused by a vaccine?
By the way, I have a genetic pheromone that makes ticks and leeches stay away from me (unfortunately it does not work for mosquitoes). I have never been bitten by a tick, and deer don’t often wander into the city. So your theory about “late stage neuroborreliosis” is way off base.
When you answer, use some real references, not argument by assertion.
Kelly, that is extremely lazy and disingenuous. I, of course, knew the answer to my question to you. You, obviously did not. Sullivan was kind enough to do your work for you. Now look at the chart and tell me how much thimerosal children are receiving since removal by 2002. Thimerosal-free flu vaccines are recommended for children ❤ years old and pregnant women and uptake is very low. Even if they were getting the full thimerosal containing vaccines, it is an order of magnitude lower than pre-removal.
Autism diagnoses have continued to increase since removal of thimerosal. So by your logic, unless you wish to argue that thimerosal works on a homeopathic principle, thimerosal DOES have a protective effect against autism. Brilliant.
I am going to take a stab at what Jake meant by tobacco science. This comes from info that the authors of this study have all received monies from vaccine producers. Therefore, there is financial conflict of interest. I have been told it is similar to tobacco companies funding research on smoking safety.
I’m a bit confused by that CS. As far as I can see only two of the fourteen authors received money from a vaccine manufacturer and those two authors were not the lead or second author.
Kelly and Jennifer. We operate here using something called ‘science’. Its what brought us the Internet, the concept of gravity, electricity and (gulp!) vaccines.
My point is that if you want to impress people with the idea that you know something, you need to try and logically argue your opinion. Just ranting makes you look silly. Really silly.
@CS: Don’t hold your breath for that check from Tony. If he was honest, it would have been sent to at least Kim Stagliano YEARS ago, since she has an autistic, unvaccinated daughter. But Tony has now moved the goalposts and added the mother’s “mercury exposure”. And if we find a totally unvaccinated mother with an autistic child, I’m sure he will move them again to add the father, grandmothers, grandfathers, ad infinitum. Talk about an idee fixe. (sorry, can’t do accents).
You are probably right about Jake’s “tobacco science” comment. But Jake sees boogies everywhere. Poor kid.
Why is it that many of those people who mock my claim sound like overeducated 5th formers all science and no sense. How would I have donated the funds to Kim years ago? I only made the offer last week! And I have not changed the goal posts I have always referred to an unvaccinated child where neither mother or child were otherwise exposed to vaccine materials. Kev says he supports my right to make this claim – so that I can ‘reap the folly of my stance’ – flowery poppycock – can’t you see its simple, and here it is again ‘it’s not science – it’s arithmetic, there are no unvaccinated autistic kids. Can’t they even see the idiocy of their position because whenever they attempt to rebut my claim they do so by referring to an individual here or there. Not even a number of such, far from a throng. Don’t they know there are possibly two to three millions of unvaccinated kids in the UK – the Chief Advisor to the government vaccines body agreed in person with me that around the height of the MMR farce 10/12 of parents were not vaccinating their kids. Two to three millions with not even a lonely autistic boy or girl amongst them. PS I will add to my offer I will visit the claimant personally and offer to debate the point of my offer with anyone in any public place!
Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK.
Tony Bateson,
here is a comment on the Age of Autism blog by you on the subject. No mention of the mother not being exposed to vaccine materials
On about.com you left another comment, again with no reference to the mother
You have made this type of claim before on this blog. The facts are not with you. If this person agreed with you, he is also incorrect. Do you want me to look up the data again and post it? You declined the opportunity to respond to it before.
Tony, take a big breath in and out, calm down and have a nice cup of tea. Done that? OK good, now look at the above quote from you. You say there are _no_ unvaccinated autistic kids. You then say our position is idiotic because we only refer to individuals here or there.
I don’t know how clear you need it but here goes. Referring to one single person invalidates your position. There, thats it. Its really that simple.
By the way, we _are_ debating in public.
Of course I won’t send a cheque to Mrs Stagliano because you say nor to CS because she says o about her daughter. Mrs Stagliano can contact me if she wishes and then I will discuss it with her. The same goes for CS or anyone else – it’s incredible that these people who tout their scientific credentials and overblown knowledge think that I will pay out because they ask. They have often asked me for proof of the impossible to prove ie no unvaccinated autistic people but it doesn’t stop them asking me to pay when their claim is readily provable and that is what I have asked for. Third party independent verification of their claim.
Tony Bateson, Oxford, UK
Tony Bateson,
Have you attempted to contact Ms. Stagliano? It appears as though you have not.
Have you attempted to contact the multiple people on the MB12/Valtrex yahoo group who recently discussed their unvaccinated autistic children? I mentioned that above. It appears that you have not.
Have you attempted to contact people who have commented on this blog who state that their child is autistic and not vaccinated? Clearly not.
Have you attempted to contact people on other blogs (such as Respectful Insolence) who left comments that their children were unvaccinated and autistic? No.
Have you responded to the fact that your claim that some large majority of UK population was unvaccinated is patently false? No.
You make a big show out of your search for unvaccinated autistic kids. It appears to be only for show.
[cs say] I am going to take a stab at what Jake meant by tobacco science. This comes from info that the authors of this study have all received monies from vaccine producers. Therefore, there is financial conflict of interest. I have been told it is similar to tobacco companies funding research on smoking safety.
[kev say] I’m a bit confused by that CS. As far as I can see only two of the fourteen authors received money from a vaccine manufacturer and those two authors were not the lead or second author.
COMMENT
Not as sure as some re science…my 15-20 year involvement with ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) and 50 years as an engineer trying to make practical use (knowing the limits) of ASTM standards…leads me to believe there is more tobacco/asbestos/promotional science than one cares to admit…
ASTM develops industry standards, which are supposed to protect the end user. Sadly many/most are written by a manufacture’s tech staff (physical scientists) with the intent of giving the manufacturer a competitive edge. the end user is an after thought…if at all.
Some years back I asked a friend (PhD physicist w/twin autistic boys and some 50 years working with lasers) for help…the following is his partial response that seems relevant to tobacco science.
The following (one man’s opine):
[quote] be aware that physical scientists are not welcome in the world of the would-be scientists in psychology, psychiatry and medicine, except as naïve clowns who invent or produce all manner of new diagnostic and treatment equipment, nuclear tracers etc., which are then used by MD’s who are given the credit for the advances by the press and public.
“Look at the prescription drug problem. MD’s almost to a man dole out dangerous poorly tested chemicals hawked by pharmaceutical companies via marketing agents who have no “scientific” credentials and who “educate” the MD with slick brochures and “free samples” to try on unsuspecting patients.
“They give elderly people a panoply of drugs without the slightest knowledge of their interactions, and with minimal follow-up. They push “laser” stuff without knowing anything about the operation of the basic equipment beyond which buttons to push on the front panel. They order lots of xrays without any knowledge of the cumulative damage of even “soft” xrays, and when challenged, will mouth some non sequitir such as “you would get more exposure on a flight to New York” (usually a falsehood.)
“Dentists are the greatest culprits in overuse of radiation. Worst of all are behavioral psychologists and charlatan psychiatrists. The former apply all manner of behavior modification systems to people with innate neurological anomalies without a hope of benefit to anyone (except their own earnings).
“The latter use powerful drugs to control behavior without proper monitoring, and in institutions to control patients with minimal staff. Look at the cottage industry created by the Paxil maker and shrinks – anxious? take a damned pill rather than cope as we all did somehow in WWII and the Depression before.
“The biosciences in the past four decades have accounted for 99% of the fraudulent research reports. Underpaid chemists, physicists and biologists working in labs run by senior professors, often MD’s but not always, fudged or outright created date sets to publish results and totally unjustified conclusions.
“Psychologists use statistical methods that require large samples to calculate standard deviations and error bars from sets of as few as ten subjects. I used to keep track of this kind of nonsense, but my files have vanished since I retired in 1988. A lot of my files were in TRW storage, and I know they have been destroyed by now.
“I’ll see what I can do – but don’t expect the pseudoscientists to pay any attention, since many of them do not understand observational science as applied to human beings, who are not robots and do not obey fixed laws of behavior. [end quote]
Apologies for the repeat…this was posted on another LBRB thread…but seems appropriate here…OK for LBRB owner to delete if he thinks not.
BTW I do NOT believe VXes cause autism…but not because of science…except for gravity, maybe general relativity…trust the seat of my pants and what passes for critical thinking in my case… over most scientific proof…of course studies are part of the process.
stanley seigler