Both Age of Autism and David Kirby have recently reported on a new review paper with Age of Autism describing it as ‘pretty interesting’ and David repeating a part of the abstract:
Documented causes of autism include genetic mutations and/or deletions, viral infections, and encephalitis following vaccination.
So, should we all in the skeptic camp be reaching for our humble pie and our knife and fork? Not exactly. Lets take a look at the contents of this paper. Lets start here:
The vaccine organism itself could be a culprit. For example, one hypothesis of the cause of autism is that the pertussis toxin in the DPT vaccine causes a separation of the G-alpha protein from retinoid receptors in genetically at-risk children (Farfel et al., 1999; Megson, 2000). The pertussis toxin creates a chronic autoimmune monocytic infiltration of the gut mucosa lamina propia and may disconnect the G-alpha protein pathways, leaving some G-alphamodulated pathways unopposed. In turn, the non-specific branch of the immune system is turned on and, without retinoid switching, cannot be down regulated.
Wow, blinded with the cool science yet? No, me neither. Go back to line one where it says ‘one hypothesis’. All that follows from that point is mere opinion. There’s no science to back it up.
Another organism of suspect is the live measles virus…
Yeah except its really not. The issues with the Wakefield hypothesis are so many and so thoroughly debunked, it really isn;t worth my time or yours going through them again and again.
There is evidence that Thimerosal (which is 49% ethyl mercury) is indeed harmful. Since the 1930s, Thimerosal has been extensively used as an antibacterial agent in vaccines (Geier et al., 2007). Thimerosal has been implicated as a cause of autism. Not only is every major symptom of autism documented in cases of mercury poisoning but also biological
abnormalities in autism are very similar to the side effects of mercury poisoning itself (Bernard et al., 2001)
Oh dear. Reliance on more thoroughly debunked rubbish in the form of well, anything by the Geier’s and the ridiculous Bernard ‘paper’. I’m happy to go through why these are rubbish but I think I’d be preaching to the converted.
The rest of the paper is a rogues gallery of debunked and fringe science. Helen Ratajczak cites the Geier’s numerous times, DeSoto and Hitlan, Nataf and Rossignol to name but a few. This isn’t a paper so much as an advert for the sort of poor science that was examined in the Autism Omnibus proceedings and roundly rejected by the Special Masters. For goodness sake, she even cites David Ayoub of the Black Helicopter infamy.
When it comes to this paper – handle with extreme caution. Its toxic rubbish.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Sadly, it appears this person has some legitimate credentials. She appears to be: Helen V. Ratajczak, Ph.D. President, Northeast Chapter, SOT (Society of Toxicology) – some confusion however because, on in the newsletter it appears her name is misspelled as “Heven” once (in her sign off as the president of the chapter), but in the rest of the newsletter she is referred to as Helen. Hopefully, she was just doing literature searches and was not aware of the the status of the researchers she was quoting. I guess what I am say is that I hope she is more lazy than a true believer.
This paper is a total non event. It’s a review. At best, nothing new. At worst, conclusions drawn that shouldn’t be.
It’s a sorry state of affairs that this perks peoples interest.
She also has another review in the same issue: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21299356 I find her employment with IIT Research Institute a bit snicker-worthy as by AoA standards, she is a pharma-shill.
You may have missed the best part. The only reference to the claim of “Documented causes of autism include… encephalitis following vaccination” is this: “Child Health Safety. 2010. June 30.”
Is this a government sponsored report? A nonprofit safety organization? Any other legitimate source for a published review article?
No. It’s actually an antivax blog with cherry picked quotes. Seriously.
I think the Journal of Immunotoxicology could use some new peers.
Orange Lantern,
Sorry, this comment got stuck in the spam filter. But, yes, it is very odd. Much as I like blogs, it is very strange for them to use a blog post in that way.
It is also misleading to the reader to cite it in that manner. There is a very low probability that the reader would find the citation.
As below folks,lack of articles from your side these days.. Your agenda is to blow holes in everybody who prints Autism -vaccines-link-mmr, Pharma et-al cant print two words supporting its stance with science and scientists…remember guys Deer isnt a scientist!!just a journo pharma shill
Measles in the United Kingdom The “Wakefield Factor”By F. Edward Yazbak MD, FAAP
http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/02/measles-in-the-united-kingdom-the-wakefield-factor.html#more
Honestly, without your blog and others like it, I would probably have let this scare me into thinking it’s vaccines that cause autism. Thank you for your blog and for bringing to light good science and helping parents like me understand it.
Yes, someone tweeted it to me, about how it explained so much to her.
I pointed out that it (the article on AoA anyway based on it) had a variation of “could be” or “could result” more than 4 times.
A “review” opinion piece that continually used the word “could” is hardly proof of anything, even if they do put the headline “documented proof of vaccine-autism link” on it.
I’m all for good hard research but I hate it when people use “could be” as a “fact” of anything.
So she should’ve considered the reputation of the researchers when evaluating the validity of the research? Somehow, that seems completely wrong to me. There has to be a better way (e.g. reading the papers, or rebuttals of the papers, and realizing they are nonsense.)
Man alive, these guys are their own worst enemy and they are just too dumb to see it. Ugh.
– pD
Joseph:
A researchers reputation is determined by the quality of their reseach, how others experts in their area have responded to their research and where they publish their research. So it would seem to some degree we are saying the same thing.
As an example, I give you the Greier’s: http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-autism-lupron-geiers-may21,0,983359.story, who are referenced in this review paper. Go to pubmed and read some of his “articles” and judge for yourself. There is a point where if you publish enough crap, your reputation will precede you.
She’s 72 years old, according to various public databases. Her quite respectable publishing career lasted from 1976-2001. Since then she’s published only two other papers. One wonders if she has a grandchild with ASD whose parents are active in the anti-vaccine movement. The article contains so many anti-vaccine talking points that it is apparent that the author has been perusing blogs and the Age of Autism. The reference list could not have been assembled by a neutral observer, and certainly not one who relied on pubmed.
The journal itself has a very low impact factor. However, review articles, which is what this purports to be, are quite often effective at increasing the impact factor. It is possible that the editor accepted this one without checking into it carefully.
I have gone over this paper several times now, and although the author claims that “encephalitis following vaccination” is a documented cause of autism, the only supporting evidence in her paper is this:
“The United States Government and Dr. Geberding, Director of Vaccines at Merck & Co., Inc. say that autistic conditions can result from encephalopathy following vaccination (Child Health
Safety, 2010).”
Correct me if I am wrong, but this is just the Poling case?
OK, encephalitis is possibly (not conclusively) implicated in childhood disintegrative disorder – which is similar to autism, and a differential diagnosis is difficult if the CDD happens very young. But in CDD the encephalitis is specifically linked to measles. The organism.
And anybody vulnerable to an attenuated virus in a vaccine is going to be way more vulnerable to the actual disease. Even if the vaccine did trigger Hannah’s condition, leaving her unvaccinated would have been the greater risk.
Encephalitis following vaccination is stunningly rare, especially compared to encephalitis following infectious disease.
This is indeed another case of stripping a statement of all context and over-generalising way beond the evidence.
[McD say] This is indeed another case of stripping a statement of all context and over-generalizing way beond the evidence.
full disclosure: believe there is no major connection…but is in indeed another and another case of what happens in general.
people pick their sloppy science to defend or oppose…”strip of context and over-generalize beyond the evidence”…eg;
VAX v anti-VAX…ms dawson v ABA…in days of yore: tobacco and asbestos science…lobotomy and refrigerator parent science…
caveat emptor.
stanley seigler
Can Brian only copy and paste these days all other privelages removed by the looks of it?Not a word since the article ,you must be bursting Brian?…
Mc D
Thats right us anti vaccine lot make it all up. I see you dont supply any links to back up your tales?
FWIW adverse reactions are well documented by the makers of the vaccines in the package inserts that “encephalitis following vaccination” is an event..its a pity hardly ever knows such a bit of documentation exists until its to late..
http://www.vaclib.org/chapter/inserts.htm
Thanks fo
Well well, I see the twit ” Science Mom” leaving her comments here too…sigh.
Well,the USA Vaccine Court has conceded many times that vaccines have ” contributed” to ” autism like” symptoms and one has to love their vague rhetoric of ” Mitochondrial dysfunction, exacerbated by vaccine fever and immune stimulation” when granting a compensation in autism regression cases.
This statement is particularly noted in the Hannah Poling case.
Furthermore, in Hannah’s case, “Findings of Entitlement: Damages Decision: MMR vaccine and Thimerosol containing vaccines ( led to) Autism Spectrum Disorder”.
Here is another: this one by the Vaccine Special Master, Gary Golkiewicz, ” The vaccine injured the childs brain, and the symptoms that came with that fall within the broad rubric of autism”.
” Fever plus Mitochondrial Disease Could Be Risk Factors for Autism Regression.” Journal of Child Neurology April 2010 volume 25, 4: pp429-434 first published September 22, 2009
” 4 out of 12 children with Mitochondrial Disease regressed into autism following vaccine induced fever”. Dr. John Shoffer MD et al
Journal of Child Neurology.
Cases of payouts by the Vaccine Court go as far back as 1990, and are broadly labelled as:
” brain disorders” ( 630 payouts) ” seizure disorders” (634)
and many of them involve autism. ( numbers quoted are dated as of beginning of 2010).
Kienan Freeman case: ” Kienan’s seizure disorder and retardation likely were the result of his MMR vaccination”.
Bailey Banks is another where the Vaccine Court conceded to vaccination of MMR as the causal link to his autism diagnosis in the Bailey Banks Decision of Entitlement.
There is a pervasive sense of hostility towards autism and parents of autism spectrum children by the media and mainstream medicine. For good measure I will add the public school system to that list. One has to wonder why? The parents did not choose autism and the children certainly didn’t either!
Instead of throwing stones, labels and discrediting the few who have put forth suggestions and added some dimension to the scope of the causal links, it behoves the medical community and the FDA and CDC to get their proverbial house in order and start looking more closely at answers to the question of autism and its causal links or point of origin themselves.
It would appear that many in the medical establishment are rather good at criticizing and debunking many of the suggested theories, without actually putting forth any effort towards a suggestion of their own.
Dinah Everett Snyder.
Dinah Everett Snyder,
you don’t need the drama (“sigh”). If you disagree with ScienceMom, a person who has contributed respectfully to the conversation here, all you have to do is point out where you disagree.
How many cases do they use this phrase in? Seems like one. A concession. A concession that, by its very nature, doesn’t say anything about causation. How many times does “autism like” appear in decisions? Not really that much. We were told years back that “soon” we would hear about how there was a much higher percentage of vaccine court cases involving autistic kids than would be expected. It never materialized.
Most of what is known about cases involving autism and the vaccine court comes from Kathleen Seidel, who unearthed a number of decisions.
“There is a pervasive sense of hostility towards autism and parents of autism spectrum children by the media and mainstream medicine. ”
I haven’t sensed that. And, yes, I am the parent of an autistic child.
“Furthermore, in Hannah’s case, “Findings of Entitlement: Damages Decision: MMR vaccine and Thimerosol containing vaccines ( led to) Autism Spectrum Disorder”.”
As the one who broke the story of the settlement, I am familiar with the document. Your statement is misleading. The (led to) isn’t in the original document at all. The title of the document is
“MMR Vaccine; Thimerosal Containing
Vaccines; Autism
Spectrum Disorder;
Finding of Entitlement;
Damages Decision Based On
Proffer”
The only time “autism” is mentioned in the body is:
If you want to claim that “led to” is somehow implied, you would be incorrect. The child was part of the Autism Omnibus, that’s why the word is there. She was supposed to be a test case for the thimerosal portion of the Omnibus, which is why that term is there too. Notice, the concession isn’t about thimerosal. It is a presumed table MMR injury.
In “Panic Virus”, Seth Mnookin tells of his conversation with Jon Poling, Hannah’s father. Dr. Poling discussed how a court concession doesn’t say anything, one way or the other, about causation.
“Cases of payouts by the Vaccine Court go as far back as 1990, and are broadly labelled as:
” brain disorders” ( 630 payouts) ” seizure disorders” (634)
and many of them involve autism. ( numbers quoted are dated as of beginning of 2010).”
How many involve autism? We were told that someone was compiling a number. What happened to that? Many of the vaccine court’s decisions involve the old DPT vaccine and a presumption of injury that was incorrect. Seizures following DPT were removed as a table injury once data came in showing that the link wasn’t real.
If so many bunk theories weren’t created, this wouldn’t be a problem now, would it?
Dianah
Dr Poul Thorsen was the last that was given millions of dollars by the apparently equally corrupt US Gov ernment Center for Disease Control (CDC) to try to disprove the links between infant vaccination and the explosive growth of child autism.
http://deadlinelive.info/2011/01/07/corrupt-scientist-who-lied-about-vaccines-and-autism-vanishes-with-millions/
Ms. Snyder, neither Bailey Banks nor Hannah Poling have autism. They have other table injuries to the vaccine, which exasperated Miss Poling’s pre-existing (genetically inherited) mitochondrial disorder.
I will warn you that Sully is not as tolerate as Orac to those who use phrases like the twit ” Science Mom”.
I would also remind you that the subject is sloppy science, not legal decisions. If you think lawyers and the legal system is where science and medicine are done, then the next time you require medical care go to the local court house or law office for treatment.
“I will warn you that Sully is not as tolerate as Orac to those who use phrases like the twit ” Science Mom”.”
I take this to mean that Science Mom has given Dinah Everett Snyder some science education over at RI?
Sullivan
“Seizures following DPT were removed as a table injury once data came in showing that the link wasn’t real.”
It dosent mean the link is never going to be”real”.
http://vaccinerisk.blogspot.com/2011/01/vaccine-court-rules-dtap-vaccine-killed.html
AWOL,
actually, it does mean that the link wasn’t real. The table injury created around DPT for seizure disorder was based on incorrect science and much publicity. Your link has nothing to do with that.
Sullivan
you say
“Seizures following DPT were removed as a table injury once data came in showing that the link wasn’t real.”
“The table injury created around DPT for seizure disorder was based on incorrect science and much publicity. Your link has nothing to do with that.”
THE JUDGEMENT SAYS ;
The facts of this case can be summarized as follows. Elias received a DTaP vaccine. Within one day, he developed a fever, which led to a complex febrile seizure. Subsequently, Elias developed epilepsy. This fact pattern is commonly seen in the Vaccine Program. See Nance v. Sec’y of Dep’t of Health & Human Servs., No. 06-730V, 2010 WL 3291896, *8 (Fed. Cl. Spec. Mstr. July 30, 2010) (citing cases); Simon v. Sec’y of Dep’t of Health & Humans Servs., No. 05-941V, 2007 WL 1772062 (Fed. Cl. Spec. Mstr. June 1, 2007). Because special masters must base their decisions on both the particular facts and specific expert opinions in a case, a special master is not bound by other special masters’ decisions in different cases; however, although those decisions are not binding, they may be persuasive authority. See Nance, 2010 WL 3291896, at *8. At a post-hearing status conference, I discussed with the parties the applicability of the decision in Simon to this case. In Simon, the special master found that a DTaP vaccination caused a febrile seizure, which caused a child’s epilepsy and subsequent death. The special master found that “on a probability scale, it is reasonable to conclude that where the vaccine is associated with fever and seizure and the seizure is of a complex nature, in the absence of proof of an alternative cause, it is the vaccine that is legally responsible for a subsequent epilepsy and residual sequela.” Simon, 2010 WL 1772062, at *6. Because the record in this case was incomplete as to that theory, I requested additional briefing from the parties after the hearing. The parties agree that the DTaP vaccine can cause a fever, and that a fever sometimes can initiate a seizure. The issues here are whether a vaccine-induced febrile seizure can cause epilepsy, and if it can, whether Elias’s initial febrile seizure caused his epilepsy.
Based on the medical literature and expert opinions submitted in this case, I find that Petitioners have established that, in circumstances like Elias’s, a complex febrile seizure can lead to epilepsy. Further, Petitioners have established a logical sequence of cause and effect showing that Elias’s vaccine-induced complex febrile seizure was a legal cause of his subsequent epilepsy.
I would say you mis-read it?
AWOL,
“I would say you mis-read it?”
No. But you misunderstand the discussion. The DPT vaccine was presumed to cause injury if a seizure occurred within a short period following giving a vaccine. This was based on a study in the early 1980s/late 1970’s, as I recall.
The problem was, that study was wrong. Later studies showed that there was no increased risk of neurological injury for children who had seizures following DPT. So the link for the table injury was removed.
The recent case is about (a) a different vaccine and (b) not a table injury.
Many of the cases paid by the program were paid under an assumption that was later shown to be wrong.
Sullivan:
Actually, no. All she has done was ask Ms. Snyder for cites. From what I can see, the education by Science Mom was directed towards Dr. Jay.
@Dinah, it is astounding to me that after being roundly dismissed, quite rightly, over at RI, you then pop up here for a repeat performance. Clearly your capacity to win friends and influence people is lacking. And before you leap into defense mode, tell me if you are not here to infuence people, then why are you?
Based upon the above it appears that we are arguing(?) the specifics of the semantics of the choices of words in order to asign the liability. See, this is a part of the problem. The complex array of ducking and diving for cover by all the
” interested parties” and the specifics to do with the diagnosis of outcome…..regardless of the table of injury being based upon something later assumed/ agreed/ decided as wrong, doesn’t sit well when viewed through a wide angled lense.
” This paper is a rogue gallery of debunked and fringe science”, this by the way is YOUR opinion.
There are far too many concessions from within the Vaccine Court, the wordings WITHIN the findings and the “special circumstances” and vague remands of ” mitochondrial dysfunction” along with the
( agreed upon) stated association between vaccines and “complex febrile seizures” which ” can lead to ” autism regression” and ” epilepsy” and ” autism like” and ” autism spectrum” to will this issue away on a whim.
Or to demand ” scientific findings or shut up”.
Come on ! There is a problem.
This does not have to be a case of yes or no. Black or White.
Autism is NOT caused by Vaccines. ALL Vaccines are safe.
Is a stroke caused by ONE thing? Is a migraine caused by ONE thing.
IF you eat chocolate then you will get a migraine.
Indeed some people DO get a migraine when they eat chocolate.
Many do not. It is caused by a variety of factors. For a select sub group of people within the “migraine community” or people predisposed to have migraines, chocolate is a trigger.
For a select sub group within the group predisposed towards
” mitochondrial dysfunction” then, could vaccines be the trigger?
For a select sub group within the group pre disposed towards autism, could vaccines have been a trigger?
Well, Wakefield may have thought the MMR had a causal link to autism, others thought differently. Some saw a problem with another vaccine.
There is clear and compelling evidence that something, a complex group of somethings is causing a very distinct percentage of the childhood population to digress/ regress into autism. Be autistic.
The clear and compelling evidence are the children themselves.
The evidence is in the numbers and the breadth of the spectrum of the disorder. This is why it won’t go away. Why it cannot.
“Concession” and ” Autism – like” and ” likely were a result of ( x, y,z) vaccine” and ” autistic behaviour” and ” pre existing ( genetically inherited) mitochondrial dysfunction” ..
See, it strikes me that the next time I need medical attention I should consult a dictionary and a thesaurus and do my damndest to read between the lines of sloppy science meets inept legal brief making out with words synopsied by journalistic malfeance at the direction of said dictionary and thesaurus who in turn were hanging by a thread being recklessly sawed at …
The merry go round is dizzying. Again, the semantics of the specifics, or was that the specifics of the semantics?
” If so many bunk theories weren’t created, then this wouldn’t be a problem, would it now” in fact the bunk theories are the ones that medicine keeps trying to ram down the throats of a validly concerned, questioning public in the face of the questions of all the concessions and special circumstances and pre existing and mitigating and mitochondrial and injury tables word games that reminds the public: in the old days we just called them garbage collectors- now they are called Sanitation Techs.
semantics, is that what billions of dollars and research and years of wiffle waffle have yielded.
I want a refund. They can keep the dictionary, thesaurus, the attorney and the doctor.
Dinah Everett Snyder.
Ms Snyder, no one is arguing ALL vaccines are always safe. No one doubts that some people are very occasionally injured by vaccines. However, that is not the same thing as saying ‘therefore vaccines can cause autism’.
The simple black and white fact is that there is no science that supports the idea that vaccines cause or lead to autism.
This is plain old hair splitting I’m afraid.
1) A vaccine court is not a piece of science
2) The vaccine court is under no obligation to be a gatekeeper of science (although they sometimes do as in the OAP)
3) in your example above, it is the febrile seizure which leads to autism, not the vaccine. The fact that a vaccine _might_ lead to a febrile seizure is simply unfortunate, not a direct causation. You’re saying that the presence of a cutlery shop causes more stabbings.
Ms Snyder – if you want to show that vaccines cause autism then you need to _do the science_ – the onus is on you to show that they do. So far thats not even come close to happening.
@ Kev, I am afraid that it is YOU who are splitting hairs on this.
you say” the fact that a vaccine might lead to febrile seizure is simply unfortunate, not a direct causation”…are we talking the chicken…or the egg here?
I am not sure where you would like to go with your cutlery shop and stabbings point since it is an irrelevant analogy and demeans the topic.
While I agree in part with your #1 point ( above) the vaccine court is the one created as a recourse for parents who have nowhere else to go. The fact that “all” parents of “vaccine damaged” children do not choose to take the issue to that level has less to do with the right to go there than the choice NOT to go there for a variety of reasons: ignorance, lack of resources, a feeling of helplessness in the face of yet more red tape, limited resources OR the resources to deal with the cost involved with regard to their childs specific needs…the reasons are many and the majority of those parents just go on as best they can dealing with it all on their own.
as for your #2 point, ” vaccine court is under no obligation to be a gatekeeper of science” is pretty loaded at best and revolves around several issues, which is beyond the scope of this discussion for now. However, I think that most people will agree that although they deal with the specifics of individual cases, and although gatekeepers are under no obligation to follow the lead as may have been presented or decided pertinent to any other similar cases, the semantics and nature of the beast is highly specific to parents of autistic spectrum children, vaccine damaged children and the related arenas of interest in medicine, law and journalism.
The onus is not on ME to show that vaccines cause autism, but as the parent of an an autism spectrum child, and as a parent with other children, and as a concerned human being, I am entitled to question the arguments and scientific and journalistic gymnastics
with which the population is bombarded, constantly.
Further you state ” The simple Black and White truth is that there is no science that supports the idea that vaccines cause or lead to autism.” I beg to differ, indeed there are many who differ with that opinion and I do not believe that YOU are qualified to make that broad sweeping statement on behalf of the entire Science and Medicine field. You are however entitled to your opinion as am I.
Indeed it is by those very same broad and sweeping Black and White catagorical statements that Science and Medicine have lost their luster and credibility for many.
By all indications there are several differing means or causal ways by which children become autistic, and I don’t believe that those that are truly dedicated to finding the answer would focus exclusively on one issue at the cost or exclussion of ALL others.
But to split hairs on the vaccines may, could, might cause
” autism- like” and then rush into ” but vaccines do not cause autism” sounds at best denialist on your ( on behalf of medicine) part. I do not state that ” vaccines cause autism”, nor do I state that vaccines are bad, fraudulent or dangerous. In the past, and now, I merely say that some vaccines, specifically MMR may have a causal link to some of the autism spectrum disorders that we see. AND, if that is the case, instead of focusing so much attention on ripping apart ONE man ( Wakefield) both personally and professionally it behoves the entire science and medical community to focus more specifically on the issues and debatable questions surrounding the correlations between the causal links of the vaccines and adverse reactions that appear to induce a subset of highly specific breakdowns in some children.
Particularly, if there is such a controversial ” link” with MMR one has to wonder why the pharmaceutical industry has not simply gone back to the individual shots, broken them back down and made them available to parents ( and doctors) who are concerned about the ” possibility of a causal link” instead of focusing so exclusively on “debunking” and ” refuting” the persistant evidence of a specific problem.
In addition there is of course much speculation not only of a vaccine that includes 3 live viruses, but the very nature of one of them. Therefore, why has the pharmaceutical industry not addressed the change in the strain of the virus used prior to the 3 in one, versus the one currently used.
Again, my point is ” far too much energy in all the wrong areas”.
Dinah Everett Snyder
Ms. Snyder:
The reason is that there is no reason to break it up. It has been a successful vaccine since 1971. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. Just state the journal, title, date and author of the papers you are citing.
@ sharon: why do you feel that I would need to win friends? Are you and I in a “friendship numbers” competition that I am unaware of? and ” defense mode” ? why do I need defense mode to fuel my surprise at how often I find the bias of oracs minnions peppered all over the web?
@ chris: Wakefield suggested a CAUSAL link to MMR vaccinations and autism, not I perse…I question the all encompassing “safety” of ” all” vaccines in the face of the staggering numbers ( and rising) of autism ( 1 in 64 in UK..
! in 110 in USA) and before we go this round ( again) let me remind you that I believe in ” safe” vaccines just not blind dogma. Ref http://www.thetruthaboutgardasil.org
The evidence supports a range of possibilities as triggers for the range of ASD.
” Biological assays lend support to the association between measles virus or MMR and autism, whereas epidemiology studies show no association between MMR and autism. Furhter research is needed to clarrify both the mechanics whereby viral infection in early development may lead to autism and the possible involvement of the MMR vaccine.”
Pardo CA, Vargos DL, Zimmerman AW Autistic Disorder and Viral Infection. Journal of Neurology 2005 Immunity, Neuroglia and Neuroinflammation in autism.
Vijendra K Singh et al about his 2001 study,” Furthermore, over 90% of MMR anti body positive autistic sera were also positive for MBP autoantibodies, suggesting a strong association between MMR and CNS autoimmunity in autism stemming from this evidence we suggest that an inappropriate antibody response to MMR, specifically the measles compound thereof, might be related to pathogens of autism”.
Vijendra K Singh, Sheren X Lin, Elizabeth Newel and Courtney Nelson. Journal of Biomedical Science. vol9, Number 4, 359-364 DOI 10.1007/BF 02256592 Abnormal measles-mumps-rubella anti bodies and CNS auto immunity in children with autism. 2001
There are several more but this should suffice for your reading pleasure for now.
Pub Med?
Are you serious? Not all the answers to EVERYTHING are on Pub Med and if that is your only source of reference then you should probably hold onto your day job with both hands…really really tightly. Why is it that you ” Science and Med junkies” for all of your credentials at ” real med and science schools” just fail to see beyond your diplomas? There is a wide wide world out there, full of rather smart people who are willing to question their belief system and loosten up their schemata, may I suggest that you do likewise.
Yours is not an absolute truth, stop presenting it as such.
@ Sulivan: really, you haven’t felt that there is a pervasive sense of hostility towards parents of autistic children and the children themselves? Strange, because you wrote on exactly that. Are you sitting on the fence on this then? The intellectual at odds with the parent? ” Majority of youth w/ mental disorders may not be receiving sufficient services” is your article no?
which you end with: we as a people have to do better. Times are getting tougher…we have to close the gap on inequalities such as this”
I am sorry…what was your point again?
MY point was that there is a sense of hostility towards autism spectrum and the parents of ASD, from schools, medicine and science.
YOU; have no point since each point that you attempt to make is negated by your next ” point”.
I think that I have covered the worthwhile issues as such, for now.
Dinah Everett Snyder.
dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com
Ms. Snyder:
The closest Pardo study I could find does not even mention MMR, and was not in the Journal of Neurology, and does not have the title “Autistic Disorder and Viral Infection.” Where did you get that lousy quote and backwards citation?
The one study by Singh, and it turns out he used lousy PCR results (which was in a Paul Offit book, so there is no reliable link). At least I was able to find that one!
Also it did not show the MMR was worse than the actual diseases: measles, mumps and rubella. Whatever “CNS autoimmunity in autism” is, it is not the same as encephalopathy leading to blindness, deafness, paralysis, mental retardation, autism (from congenital rubella syndrome) and even death from the diseases (about one in a thousand for measles).
What further research did Singh ever get funded in the last ten years? How does the most recent Hornig study affect his getting that funding?
Do try again.
Also to remember the evidence must not include known fraudulent researchers. So nothing from Wakefield is acceptable. And neither are scare sites like “truthaboutgardasil.” Plus, make sure the citations are real. Be safe and actually cut and paste the stuff from PubMed (the Pardo one was really screwed up!). Something like this (which was on the list when I was looking for the Pardo study):
The MMR vaccination and autism controversy in United Kingdom 1998-2005: inevitable community outrage or a failure of risk communication?
Burgess DC, Burgess MA, Leask J.
Vaccine. 2006 May 1;24(18):3921-8. Epub 2006 Mar 3.
Also, remember that the MMR vaccine has been used in the USA since 1971. If you are an American under the age of 41, you may have had it as a toddler. Why was there only an issue after Wakefield’s fraud in 1998? Why not in the 1970s, or even the 1980s (when Barbara Loe Fisher was fanning the flames over the DTP vaccine)?
@Dinah, I was playing with the title of a famous book. Perhaps you havent heard of Dale Carnegies ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’? Perhaps you are too young? You didn’t answer my question. If you are not here to influence people then why are you?
@ Dinah, This ‘twit’ asked you (rightly so) for citations that you were waving about as proof that Wakefield’s work was replicated. You refused and still do, except to pimp your book as though the asked for citations were of your very own unpublished works.
Thank you, Science Mom, for filling in the gaps of my reply. I only have access to the abstracts.
I recently went to a talk by Tom Sidwell of the Australian Skeptics. His presentation on the daft use of cites by Meryl Dorey was eerily familiar to Ms. Snyder’s use. I found a letter that explains the sloppy citation, and how she cut and pasted them from whale.to. Enjoy!:
Click to access avnts3.pdf
Firstly, just to let you know that the site lost my first attempt at a reply, too long perhaps?
So this will be more brief then.
@ Science Mom, hello there, I did not mention my book anywhere on this site, you did.
Further, I don’t claim to be ” enlightened”, do you?
I merely have an issue with broad sweeping gestures of vaccines in general and no, vaccines are not all safe, are they?
I merely question the narrow field of dogma versus keeping an open mind, a wider viewpoint and not being so ever quick to condemn out of hand.
Because I question the safety of vaccines, does that make me anti vaccine? I say no, you say yes, by definition if one questions the safety of a vaccine is one a hater? I say not. I say I am cautious and prudent in my embrace.
There are vaccines I believe in:
tetanus
polio (which is oral too)
hep
flu vaccine…not so much
current flu vaccine? hell no!
Gardasil? based on current information? never!
I have 4 children ( a grandchild) and 3 foster children that have been through my house, all vaccinated tho none on CDC schedule and individual M plus M plus R shots. All paid for out of pocket as health insurance would not pay for ” customized” preference, interesting that they would have covered the full cost otherwise.
Interesting that after Wakefield posed a causal link between MMR and autism the Brits made single shots unavailable, forcing parents to either choose to vaccinate with a 3 in one…or to not vaccinate period.
The fact that a vaccine might lead to a febrile seizure which in turn may cause epilepsy/ autism is… ” unfortunate” ..gosh yes..
Bailey Banks, yes, epilepsy versus autism, mitochondrial dysfunction and pre disposition versus cause and tables…
smacks of sleazy backroom/ courtroom antics by Vaccine Court and special masters and has a feel of the spirit of ethics violations of the grand sort reserved for entry beyond the pearly gates if you catch my drift. Beyond the scope of this, for now.
See, if someone mentions Dr. Wakefield then they are labelled a looney and a Jenny McCarthy paranoia/ scare monger idiot, isn’t that the isssue for you.
He has been made an example of in the grandest way possible, a knee jerk reaction of cause and effect. What has that done for those doctors/ researchers who may be prepared to look beyond the narrow scope of accepted dogma: treatment and options? a specific way of looking at things versus a wider more gracious way or approach. A wide angle lens versus a pin prick of light?
I HAVE an ASD child, although clearly it was not a result of the MMR vaccine ( no 3 in one remember). I had to discover ( on my own) that amino acids would make an ENORMOUS difference, that Folic acid, Selenium and cod/ vit D3 would impact his health for the better. That probiotics would be a godsend.
No doctor or specialist dared to ” go there” at the time.
Further, a gifted child who fell within the ASD realm? are you kidding? no help from doctors, therapy advocates or education resources, and no, it is not a splinter skill.
Too smart to qualify for ANY aid/ resources and too stupid(?) to tie his own shoe laces… see, I CAN say that, because I am his MOTHER !!!!
Me ( and other parents like me) are sick to death of being told to check off a flipping box with yes or no answers for a child that doesn’t fit their neat little ” criteria” of ” gifted” AND
” ASD”. How does one “classify” a child (with a box) who is a chess master and can talk about the universe and grow algae for fuel for his model car…play the guitar ( self taught)and read Shakespeare and quote poetry and yet falls apart at…
never mind, I digress.
An immune compromised child who was a strep carrier had to endure horrific side effects to antibiotic cocktails that left her ever weaker and more underweight, until I treated her with Colloidal Silver topically. 2 years later she has been strep free ( for 2 years) and has recovered her immune function and weight gain puts her within ” normal” range. ( as opposed to skeletal of the past).
Doctors are at risk of losing their license for suggesting
” alternatives” that may be better options for specific cases though they are “immune” should they write a prescription that maims.
And though this is not as such the doctors fault it is a failing.
A failing of Medical School. A failing of FDA and CDC and legislature and ultimately, it is the doctor who sees patients no? So who would the public blame and feel frustarted with?
And, having made such an example of Wakefield there are now ever fewer doctors and researchers willing to detach from the rigors of dogma.
I propose that parents are not so much behind Wakefield as they are ready to embrace someone wwho appears to give a damn and stick his neck out, on the behalf of them and their children and a greater diversity of options and opinion. And while gastro or GI issues are not exclusive to autism, nor are all autistic children plagued by this problem, no doctors wanted to treat within more than standard medications. Why? Because the FDA ( and Codex) claim that foods are inert, good only for calories not medicinal value?
Richard Deth, Prof of Pharmacology, dept of Pharmaceutical Science ( ironic no doubt) Northwestern University had the following to say: ” Wakefield’s identification of gastrointestinal inflammation in autism will remain an important scientific contribution. The magnitude of the effort to discredit him betrays the strong fear that his suggestion of a causal link to vaccination may be correct. It amounts to a public pillorying that frightens others from investigating this contraversial but important issue.”
http://northeastern.edu/news/stories/2011/01/deth.html
I agree, as do many in the field of medicime and science that I have spoken to, in the USA, UK, India and Southern Africa ( my speciality by the way). Further, a study is underway on this very issue so let us not debate this here. Unless you want to exclussively for yourself that is.
The study is not on Wakefield specifically either but as one of several.
Brian Deer seems intent on hounding Dr. Wakefield to the grave it appears.
Deusberg is another: one of a few dissenters with HIV Aids who was drowned out by the masses of collective thought ( or special, vested interest), although he did manage ( as did others of the same cloth) to go on and be productive in his ( their) respective fields. He is a particularly disarming and enchanting man, tho that is neither here nor there at this time. And has weathered the proverbial storm.
I watched a president of a country be eviccerated and disembowelled over the politics of Aids and watched in horror and dismay as a fragile and overwhelmed healthcare system was hijacked by special interest groups.
And yes, I have held a person with Polio and been through a Leprosy camp and seen them treated with Colloidal Silver and Rooibos Tea. Where have you been?
I have held a child in a Malaria induced coma and watched as she was treated with an Artemisinin tea… oh! tsk ! Of course ! WHO declared Artemisinin the frontline of defense against Malaria, which only allowed for the reclassification of Artemisinin as a drug because as the FDA states: Only a DRUG can treat, alleviate, mitigate, or cure a disease, all else is ….inert ( gag me now)
and therefore, Artemisinin is now being phased out of the public domain because the public cannot self medicate ( why? can we really only treat ourselves with something that has a pamphlet on how to take this medication)????
or is more about patents, and fees, and Research and Development fees to the consumer and govt through the back door?
Watch out curcumin, comfrey and yarrow, the spice doctors are coming for you next, the FDA has already done a good job on “defaming” Colloidal Silver to the public, and based on the sites that some of you frequent the FDA has done a great job on YOU too. For shame !!!
I realize that I have digressed from ” A perfect example…” but it is pertinent to ” Sloppy Science”…
and may help answer the question as to why I am here.
I will submit this now for fear of losing it to, and carry on for another post.
Dinah Everett Snyder
dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com
@ Chris
I have not seen the letter at the link you provided before, nor did I get it from the net. The hard copy that I have has the link as I gave it, before. I am curious though, what is whale.to ?
@ Science Mom.. your malice towards me is misdirected though perhaps I should appologize for my knee jerk reaction to you…
sorry then..
@ Sullivan: I still believe that you are riding the fence as evidenced by your flip flop articles…tho I am open to rebuttal.
and I do believe that ASD has been severly impeded by science, medicine AND the public school system, tho I said my piece to you somewhere else I believe.
@ Kev: we are perhaps both hair splitters no? and at whose expense then? pride? yours? mine? or true honest debate outside of vaccine courts and beyond special masters jurisdiction?
Okay, most people realize and are frustrated that Dr. Wakefield has become so ” causal” to autism. By most people I refer to parents of ASD ( I think I speak for a few hundred, whom I know)
as well I speak for those researchers and doctors who are really trying hard to leave no rock unturned in their quest for answers to some of the questions around autism and regression to autism.
Wakefield/ Lancet/ MMR/ autism are such a toxic combo. Both sides are guilty then, as is the press.
Right now there are questions being asked within the UN and affiliated parties as to GMO’s and their link to some of our rising healthcare issues: diabetes, obesity, autoimmune illness, preterm birth rates, specific mortality charts and concerns that although the US is highly vaccinated and has one of the highest if not THE highest per capita healthcare costs globally, the US health is falling in the global assessments and falling below other, less well developed countries.
Interesting that there is a unique form of malnutrition diabetes in Africa, not seen anywhere else ( yet). Not a question nor topic I have raised, rather Gates Foundation, media and UN high ups, flailing to explain.
Specifically I can refer you to these articles that were presented to the public:
” Sins of the Grandfathers” by Sharon Begley. Newsweek Nov 8, 2010
“” Back to the Genetic Future” by Sharon Begley. Newsweek Nov 22, 2010
Specifically these point to the mouse models of the growing cycle of ” bad genes” “inherited” from our grandfathers, influencing grand daughters in ways that were deemed ” impossible” and
” would never happen” ways of even 5 years ago.
Genetics cannot display such uniform changes in evolution along such a linear track in such a short span as two generations,
Or can it?
and what of causes then?
Does it perhaps sound familiar to the current issues of GM deregulation and potential cross contamination, or at the very least…contamination? And what does that say?
No, I am not being coy? I am posing a question of the science minds, please…
Much like the Russian study of rats fed GMO soy products and or GM potatoes, that was ” debunked” to some degree, yet has been redone yet not really deemed ” relevant”….despite clear evidence that major organs were affected and of the infants being weaker with higher mortality than the control groups.
Albert Einstein School of Medicine is studying genes and proteins and a $30 million dollar grant ” Protein Form and Function”.
Now I will ask you to go to the delightful Pubmed and look at the plethora of study material on autism :
specifically: “molecular genetics of autism”
highly specifically then: “Genetics of autism: from genome scans to candidate genes”.
pubmed:11122951 and 14648479 respectively, oh hell just for good measure 11827743
there are multiples of this type for you, on Pubmed.
@ Science Mom: no, not incredibly lazy research, finally sleeping fetal alcohol syndrome 22 day old foster baby asleep in one arm.
With a rather perplexing array of possible other issues.
” carbon copy of so many before me”?
perhaps, to some degree, though a rather well read one who has
* travelled far, seen much, heard more and knows many.
I accept my limitations, they are many, however firm adherance to a highly specific dogma is not one I ascribe to, thankfully.
@Sharon: above * was a lazy book reference too dear, although I hadn’t thought to phrase it as such since I feel perhaps a little beyond English lit class. For all that ye all may slash and burn at my writing here and there.
and so, to you then, why am I here? (shrug), clearly not to make friends it seems?
PS: someone above mentioned that were I under 41 and American I may have received some vaccine or other, to that then: I am well beyond 41 ( thank you! though my coconut oil facials and dead sea scrubs thank all, along with Chorrela, COQ10 and a host of others I cannot recall right now) and I am not American, though I do live here, and have for many years, interspersed with much travel both before and during my tenure in this country.
Dinah Everett Snyder
dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com
I realize that my first reply may be lost in the spam folder, hopefully this will be true and it will appear after moderation, along with these 2, if not, then this will suffice.
Dinah Everett Snyder
dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com
Ms. Snyder:
Hard copy of what? Those cites are both less than ten years old, and are easily found on PubMed (if you don’t screw it up). You cannot have a copy of what you claim to be “Pardo CA, Vargos DL, Zimmerman AW Autistic Disorder and Viral Infection. Journal of Neurology 2005 Immunity, Neuroglia and Neuroinflammation in autism”, because it does not exist. Which means it is something else. Where did you get it from?
You said:
You obviously did not understand that was alluding to how long the MMR vaccine has been in use. It was introduced in 1971, and anyone born after 1970 would have a good probability of receiving it as a child, like many of the young parents who are refusing to vaccinate their children.
But this does seem to confirm that you are a grandparent who is just learning how to use a computer and the Internet. Noting that you claimed those badly posted citations are on hard copy. Do yourself a favor, enroll some classes at your local community college. Take some basic computer/Internet usage classes, and also some basic science and English courses. That would be a much better use of your time, since all you are doing now is embarrassing yourself with illiterate depths of ignorance.
@ Chris:
” you obviously did not understand that it was alluding to how long the MMR vaccine had been in use”.
On the contrary Chris, mine was a more flippant remark, poking fun at your way of either digging at someone because they are
” too young to know” or if that fails, then ” too old to know” !
I take it that you feel that you hover at some illustrious middle mark then?
Hope that works out for you.
again, @ Chris:
” this does seem to confirm that you are a grandparent”…
your ability to confirm the obvious is astounding, quite a breathtaking feat in fact. most especially since I actually TOLD you that I was a grandparent.
You have now managed to prove beyond a a shadow of doubt the very nature of the limitations with which you, and others like you, struggle. ” this does seem to confirm…”
yes, indeed it does, indeed it does.
Dinah Everett Snyder
dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com
Ms. Snyder:
I am sorry I missed that in the midst of the broken sentences and rhetoric. I only give your prose the attention it deserves, not much.
Ms. Snyder, did you answer the question of where you got the citation:
“Pardo CA, Vargos DL, Zimmerman AW Autistic Disorder and Viral Infection. Journal of Neurology 2005 Immunity, Neuroglia and Neuroinflammation in autism” ?
Or did I miss that also? Please tell us where you got that citation.
@ Chris : ” I only give the attention it deserves” …
how purile!
how immature of you, the great science mind, the great wielder of the English language.
But, since you have actually asked a question : that, along with a handful of others was given to me by a gentleman from Stellenbosch University, at a meeting to discuss how the Vaccine Court has clouded the issue of true culpability, and how the numbers of vaccine damaged children in African countries may be helped despite a glaring lack of resources. Since we know of ” predisposition” then, clearly there are those that should be tested…yet how does one begin to treat a million orphans ( with no hope of background information)who clearly may/ are at risk due to parental HIV status, malaria infection TB exposure…
In the USA we don’t test each child before immunization, do we? It is only AFTER the fact that the issue is raised of ” pre existing” ” mitochondrial dysfunction”….
Yet clearly there is much ( with access via pubmed and many other sources) debate and study on the issue of DNA damage, and how it pre determines, predisposes and sets children, and adults, up for large scale health issues. Methinks that with your highly specific knowledge focused so exclusively in one area that the broader picture would be well beyond your ability as those notions as yet have no clear ” Abstract” for you to cite from your bible Pubmed.FYI: not everything going on in science, medicine and academia is available on pubmed, just to clarrify.
Chris, that may have been harsh but really, knowledge is sometimes based on the sum total of a broad expanse, the sum total of all it’s individual parts, not the preponderance in one small corner.
As an aside, the prospect of DNA damage has ramifications far beyond autism, and autism is merely one miniscule part of a greater problem.
Dinah Everett Snyder
dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com
Dinah,
Does the “gentleman from Stellenbosch University” have a name?
Since you seem to be from South Africa, can you explain how the “vaccine court” presumably the “Autism Omnibus” in the USA, has any real relevance (except as a good summary)? The decisions of a court are only local. The preponderance of scientific evidence, on the other hand, is world-wide. That is why Chris keeps asking you to visit pubmed. Yes, really visit it, and not just repeat what others have told you.
We are supposed to be discussing a really terrible “review” article published in a third or fourth tier journal. The connection between DNA damage and vaccines seems peripheral.
Ms. Snyder, I suspected as much. If the the cite on that piece of paper was so mucked up, we can assume the rest of the bits on the paper are also worthless.
As Broken Link said: could you now stay on topic?
Look, people… there is no possible good going to come out of trying to talk to the likes of Dinah Everett Snyder… she’s too stupid to learn anything that’s going to change her mind when she’s so obviously wrong.
No point engaging her in sensible discussion: the title of her ‘book’ shows clearly how messed up her thinking is.
@ David Andrews, yes you are probably correct that no possible good can come from any discussion here with Dinah. It’s just that the snide tone of her comments seem to suggest she does consider herself posessed of an unsual intelligence, and that arrogance is difficult to leave unchallenged.
Unlike JohnFriar Chemist, who kind of bumbles along, or AWOL with his Wakefield obsessed trolling, Dinah comes on her highhorse crusade, and it is mighty tempting to want to knock her off (the highhorse that is).
@ Broken Link: Thank you, yes the vaccine court and decisions are
” merely local” and ” scientific evidence is worldwide”
True, however the NGO’s and World Bank as well as USA aid packages to Africa often leave Southern African countries without a voice as to WHAT they are getting which makes review of US policies regarding products/ vaccines and their ramifications pertinent to others. Remember that FDA approves these things for use, and while US laws and vaccine court operate locally pharmaceutical companies supply products globally.
There are pharma products not approved for US market that US however purchases with aid money destined for Southern Africa.
This raises questions and concerns ( Retrovirals are high on this list). Watching how vaccine court decides, amongst others, gives the relevant departments in Africa ways of negotiating and dealing with their own policies and in negotiations with pharma and NGO’s.
FDA may be “USA” but their reach is far, aided by their relationship with Codex. Pharmaceutical companies hold up the FDA rulings and policy etc as ” shining examples” or try to justify product by relating their FDA experiences which can be confusing.
As far as study materials, resources are limited and no more so in African countries so they often pool resources and or use other models to discus their own trajectory. Of course this is not unusual in any research dept anywhere, but we are talking of Southern Africa here.
Now, the sheaf of papers or as everyone says ” poor cites” was not meant to be cite worthy,(my bad as I gave them okay) rather it was given as a reference to where things are heading. There is much concern about genetics most esp due to chronic malnutrition over generations as well as the malaria and TB, although HIV Aids raises the issue to, to a lessor degree.
You say the connection between vaccines and DNA damage is peripheral?! However, the issue of mitochondrial dysfunction that is mentioned in vaccine courts as being causal( to autism and regression) as opposed to MMR being causal is the bigger issue, therefore it is relevant, though perhaps not within the frame of this particular ” review” then.
@ Chris:” the rest on the bits of paper are worthless”
perhaps in terms of specific and valuable cites ( for you) but they are extremely relevant in their wording and thrust, no matter the particular critique of methods etc.
NOTE: ” further research is needed to clarify…”
One step at a time ne’?
@ David Andrews: it is worthy of note that NOWHERE on this site did I mention my book, and I challenge you to find the title mentioned anywhere here. Therfore David you have come from oracs site, what? did Chris have to bring in the ” heavy weight” to squash the opposition? See, having googled you I notice that you never seem to have much in the way of thought as a response, rather you make idiotic statements, usually peppered with foul langugae which you seem to think gives substance(?) to your statement (?!). Fail.
FYI: my ” book” is “FDA; CrimesAgainstHumanity: Is FDA the Rogue Militia for Big Medicine and WHY it matters.”
With a teeny small chapter on autism, just to clarrify.
” shows how messed up her thinking is” well David, that just goes to show how small your little world is, doesn’t it?”
A statement only becomes relevant when clarrified with substance, of which you have none.
unlike Broken Link, everyone else has digressed into miniscule nit picking and or personal attacks.Yes, keep on topic, right. Ditto.
Awol has valuable comments too, the rest are just a perpetual slander of the facts and provide a disservice at best.
Now that I have “addressed” my curiosity about the so called
” other side” I am going on to more important things.
@ Chris: what I have said to you is relevant, think on it. Or not.
Pubmed is valuable, but contrary to the opinions here, it is not the begiining and end of all science and medicine and it’s importance is overstated, though as a reference it is invaluable.
And dialogue is only as valuable as the willingness to listen and speak with respect and humility, with eagerness and a goal toward deeper understanding. In this then, everything here is a monumental waste of time.
Dinah Everett Snyder
dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com
Ms. Snyder, you are both pompous and very off topic. PubMed is only an index, and even some of the stuff it indexes is suspect (like the Homeopathic journals). What you did was get a piece of paper with a horribly mangled cite, which leads us to believe the rest of the stuff on the paper was also mangled, and wrong.
When you have finished digging a hole, it is advisable to put down the shovel and stop digging.
@ Chris:
” When you have finished digging a hole, it is advisable to put down the shovel and stop digging” !
well of course it is, one needs both hands to place the plant firmly into the hole….
finally, a worthwhile statement from Chris.
Dinah Everett Snyder
dinaheverettsnyder
Delayed response–I missed this one sent to my email from Dawn:
@ DES: blah blah blah blah!
Dinah
Im sure Chris is just on here for entertainment and to give us a laugh…Ive never laughed so much on here
Well done Dinah
AWOL,
the silly taunts and congrats back and forth add nothing to the discussion. It does make it clear that you are tolling, though.
I wish I could predict the stock market as well as I can predict the behavior of people like AWOL. Call him/her out as a troll and, bingo, another 4 posts come out in rapid succession. My guess is a little attention thrown towards Dinah would produce similar results.
Sullivan its your side that start with the ad-hom always,If we do were banned..if we reply with same were banned from posting..then again no complaints from me none…I carry on doing what I do best..sticking up for the kids destroyed by vaccines and wont stop if its not on here ,its somewhere else…