Poul Thorsen was a key person in setting up a CDC funded team to perform epidemiology in Denmark. He has recently been indicted for wire fraud. Below are some of the key parts of the indictment which I feel will be of interest to the discussion:
Count
Aarhus University and Odense University Hospital administered the CDC grant under the direction of a principal investigator, who was assigned scientific and administrative oversight.
Count Paragraph 6 starts with:
In 2002, after CDC awarded the grant, defendant THORSEN went to Denmark and became the principal investigator, responsible for administering the research money awarded by the CDC to Denmark.
So, at least according to the Grand Jury that indicted him, Poul Thorsen was the “principal investigator” and was assigned “scientific and administrative oversight”. I bring this up because the question posed by many is “how much was he able to influence the scientific results?”. I can’t find the comment right now, but I do recall one collaborator (I believe Madsen) stating that Mr. Thorsen did not have the ability to
From Count Paragraph 8 we get some details as to how the scheme was allegedly pulled off:
“The invoices falsely claimed that a CDC laboratory had performed work under the grant for which Aarhus University owed money.
I.e. he told his University in Denmark that the CDC was doing some of the work and that money had to be transferred back to pay for that. But, it appears that the money was transferred into personal accounts belonging to Mr. Thorsen.
Now, here’s the part that’s going to get a lot of speculation going.
On or about the dates set forth below in the Northern District of Georgia and elsewhere the defendant! POUL THORSEN aided and abetted by others known and unknown to the Grand Jury and for the purpose of executing the aforementioned scheme and artifice to defraud, transmitted and caused to be transmitted by means of wire communication in interstate and foreign commerce, writings, signs, signals, and sounds, that is, wire transfers ln the following amounts from accounts held by Aarhus University in Denmark to accounts held by defendant THORSEN at the CDC Federal Credit Union Atlanta, Georgia:
aided and abetted by others known and unknown to the Grand Jury
Many will ask “were members of his scientific team involved in the money transfers?” Some will just assert it as fact.
Note that the dates involved are from December 2006 to October 2008. This is long after the main autism/vaccine studies were performed. However, if true, these charges do show a man of low personal integrity. This will be used to question his work. However, the fact remains: his work has been replicated. Take the studies from his group out–discard them entirely–and the story remains the same: neither thimerosal nor the MMR vaccine caused an autism “epidemic”. The risk of autism is not higher for those who got vaccines with thimerosal or the MMR vaccine.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Hi
Someone said the data set is there:
This is correct.
Thimerosal at ten times the amount in some 2011 vaccines is above the lethal effect for babies (LD50).
And I liked the first part of Boyds talk comparing his fight as an expert on mercury and professor of chemistry:
Having a 12 year argument with the town drunk.
So far the TOWN DUNKS are winning.
And the claims of LETHAL EFFECTS are only WININGS.
And so far it is the young and innocent that are the LOSERS.
Thorsen was a minor author of only two out of more than two dozen papers that disproved Wakefield. And you still do not know the difference between financial and scientific fraud, or how to post proper evidence (videos don’t count).
Chris,
“Mo1” would like you to know that he, as “sniffer”, corrected you.
Chris
Are videos to clear to be disputed? I don’t follow could you explain?
Sniffer corrected you on fraud could you explain this from your point of view please?
I thought the above from Jim rings a lot of bells and correlates’ with all the truth faultless.
Thanks Jim
Hi Chris
Videos dont count? So when the claimants go to court the experts for the vaccine companies look at videos and say that there is clear evidence of autism BEFORE MMR and the judge accepts that WITHOUT QUESTION.
So why do you not accept video evidence if courts do? Are you a higher or lower judge?
As for Thorsen being a minor author I completely agree except I would reduce the size to a NOTHING author.
Proper minor authors got a mention at the end of the “research”.
We are indebted to
Suzanne Toft
Meta Jorgensen
Catherine Rice
and
Nancy Dornberg
And finally what about those 32 autism cases after MMR and 3 that didnt get MMR.
Third time of asking:
If its too difficult to answer thats fine as we are only blogging.
We are not affecting LIVES just trying to get reptilian brains into the science age (quote of Helen Caldicott who finds some men beyond the pale and unfit to be called human or humanistic)
Mo1/Sniffer videos are anecdotes, the plural of anecdote is not data. Mr. Fryer has yet to provide any evidence for his claims.
Please find and attend an adult basic English class in your local area.
Dear
Chris and Sullivan,
Er, uh, do I understand that you bear some sort of antipathy toward me?
I am not inimical to you.
Yours Sincerely
Sniffer
Sniffer,
I don’t know what you are asking. Do I find it strange that you created a sock puppet on this site? Yes. Do I ask you to not do so? Yes. Do I think there is a reasonable probability that you are someone who previously made a lot of comments on this site under a different ‘nym. Yes. Was that person asked to not post here anymore? Yes.
Let’s make it really clear: you and Mo1 used the same IP address. Either you are the same person or you are working from the same location.
Mr Fryer, I really can’t work out why you believe the things you do, but for the next day or so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are well intentioned. So ask you to visit a proper Autism research site. Have a read of the articles contained therein and come back with your thoughts.
Try Molecular Autism at http://www.molecularautism.com/
Sniffer, I bear no antipathy towards you. I just ask that you learn to read and speak English. I assume English is not a language you normally use since you seem to have trouble with simple sentences and basic concepts.
Sullivan:
The question of whether a safety level has been set is never irrelevant.
The referenced “ample data” has no control groups, i.e. no dosed data sets vs. dosed data sets. There is only data on dose A vs. dose B. And even at that, Verstraeten el al 2/29/2000 infers an increased risk of autism with increases of thimerosal preservative dosage. See graph 3 at http://www.safeminds.org/research/library/20010229.pdf
The Pharma and CDC and FDA approach of allowing injection of a compound containgin the heavy metal mercury, with known effects of brain cell death and injury, and calling it “safe” is has no scientific basis.
As far as causing autism goes, the exposure to thimerosal in the pediatric vaccine schedule is proven safe.
If you want to argue some other potential effect, other than autism, feel free. It doesn’t have relevance here on an autism blog.
Safeminds still promotes the idea that autism looks like mercury poisoning. That idea never had any validity.
The thimerosal hypothesis was never strong. Now it is just a failure. The rise in autism prevalence is not due to thimerosal. I find it sad to say the least that safeminds doesn’t really support any other potential environmental cause. Even to the point of denying the large sums of money being spent on the research.
This does not sound like it was “proven safe.”
“In conclusion, we can state that this analysis does not rule out that receipt of thimerosal-containing vaccine in children under three months of age may be related to an increased risk of neurologic development disorders. Specific conditions that may warrant more detailed study include autism, dyslaia, misery and unhappiness disorder and attention deficit disorder.”
“Thimerosal VSD Study, Phase I, Update 2/29/00, CONFIDENTIAL DO NOT COPY OR RELEASE,” Verstraeten, Robert Davis, Frank DeStefano, page 9.
Jim Thompson,
You cite a discussion of the Verstraeten study. A presentation made before the study was released.
A presentation from 11 years ago. It calls for more detailed study.
We are currently in 2011, not the year 2000. Since that was written many studies and many millions of dollars have been spent on the question. The answer has come back time and again: thimerosal did not increase the risk of autism.
Mr. Thompson, evoking something written a year before thimerosal was removed from all pediatric vaccines is a stretch. It is now 2011, every pediatric vaccine for children has had a thimersal free formulation available for almost a decade.
It is like you are screaming “No taxation without representation” to the British at about the time the first USA constitution was ratified.
And a reminder: Thorsen only had a minor part in two papers. There are more than two dozen other papers that show no correlation between vaccines and autism. Plus, you have not provided the two papers that replicate Wakefield’s now retracted 1998 Lancet paper that are independent, include at least a dozen children, include the MMR, autism and gastrointestinal issues.
Hi Sharon
That site uses Baron Cohen a well known person with some knowledge of autism.
The first ref there relates to autoantibodies.
This is exactly what I and others have been going on about for more than a decade.
The work on this was done backa hundred years ago by Charles Richet.
We are looking at different parts of the same monster.
Hi Chris
I believe there is more thimerosal going into vaccine factories than ever before. We dont know as the data is not known to me. It is an anecdote as opposed to observation which are checkable and form science or knowledge. One observation is part of our increasing scientific knowledge while vaccinesturning people into green men adds to our anecdotal base. In this case also the base of LIES.
A 2000 paper is at the death knell for vaccines with mercury? So how come pregnant mothers and by science and observation and even anecdote this means a baby is exposed to the stuff at an age earlier than ever in our vaccine history?
Thorsen played only aminor part in research papers? Who did the deals with the CDC for grants then? How many others have homes and all the trappings of a free wheeling town of Atlanta then? Madsen and Hviid are also party to the papers but I am not aware that they are in USA living. Hviid has produced some of the worlds best research papers on mercury and when challenged by me on this apparent difference SILENCE was the only reply I got from him. Maybe a language barrier but like Magos and like Clarkson et al it is incredible how all their earlier work has gone for the dustbin in an attempt to save face for the TERATOGEN and NEUROTOXIN still in 2011 VACCINES for the very very yet to be tiny infantsor babes. Inmy day we had milk and orange juice. Today its MERCURY and FUKU2or FUK US HIMA plutonium at 300 000 tons or whatever for the northern world to share around.
I predict in a year or two we may even prefer mercury to plutonium for out loved and longed for children.
The world is so much messed up as fukushima’d up.
But we can always count on those who will say to their dying day
ITS all good for us and we can take
One Fuk U Shima a day
Or
11 mercury vaccines a day
Til kingdom comes.
1) It doesn’t matter what you believe. It matters what the facts are. You have no facts to back up this claim.
2) The exposure to infants from vaccines in the US has dropped dramatically. That is a fact. Pediatric vaccines have a much lower thimerosal content. And, yet, there is no evidence of a drop in autism rates.
Hi Chris
Back in this series you wrote of HARPOCRATES and the impossibility of comparing vaccinated groups with unvaccinated groups.
Are you for real or do you just like to disagree and annoy people and hold up the finding of harm to little children?
You then quote a piece of work by amongst others Thorsen.
In this piece of work he looks at the best part of 100 000 UNVACCINATED children.
So what now for the Nuremburg agreement et al?
In this piece of work it talks of 32 people getting autism who have had MMR vaccines.
It talks of 3 who got autism who did not have the MMR vaccine.
Taking the partiality view that after 3 goes (now 4) you will never give an answer or even admission this is in Thorsen’s paper, lets move on to a study of vaccinated and non vaccinated.
The potential is there in Denmark where a HUGE chunk of people DO NOT VACCINATE.
The global result even before FIDDLING, DATA MINING or even resorting to FRAUD is to say:
Hey! Hey! Hey! If the USA or the UK had the amounts of autism that we get in 2011 Denmark we would all NEVER have heard of autism unless it was on our spectrum in the 1950’s when autism in USA and UK was higher than in todays Denmark.
What nonsense. The estimated autism prevalence in Denmark is quite comparable to that in the US and the UK. I’ve written about it here, and you can find it readily on pubmed.
Hi Sullivan
The Verstraeten study when published hid problems after thimerosal. (2003)
This could be extrapolated to a ten fold increased risk for some. A huge, huge risk.
The paper dated 2003 and effectively all discussion halted in 2004.
Many things have happened since which do not let thimerosal of the enquiry and at times whole nations (many and different) have halted vaccines and for the most part after thimerosal vaccines.
In fact we did not have the whole of the data base available on thimerosal from earlier times. The name has changed and we now know merthiolate is the same substance and has been found to exceed the LD50 for babes at just ten times the concentration. The answer to this problem has not been definitively given except for the precipitous call to get thimerosal out of vaccines.
In 2011 thimerosal is creeping back in. In 2009 more than 95 per cent of French adults refused such a vaccine. It is not clear if they have got these vaccines accepted by sleight now?
The problem is answered if killing children with thimerosal is acceptable tomodern society that can allow thousands of tons of plutonium into atmosphere and claim we can do that all day and every day.
To me it is not risk taking but a poor effort at genocide.
John Fryer Chemist,
you keep stating this in various ways. It is just plain wrong. The intravenous LD50 for thimerosal (for a mouse) is IVN-MUS LD50 30 mg kg-1
I.e., you would need 30mg per kilogram thimerosal.
So, take a small infant. 1 kilogram. You would need to have 3mg of mercury in a vaccine to have 1/10th the LD50 dose.
This avoids the problem that you are mixing up “concentration” with “dose”. They are quite different, as you should well know (or have known at one time).
Hi Sullivan
Just for information can you cite those studies and millions spent on finding thimerosal is safe to now inject into a pregnant mother?
I wasnt aware any vaccines were generally proven safe at this time?
I can cite one example of more than a million dollars that didnt prove thimerosal safe in that period.
Poul Thorsen and 1 million that was “better” spent on his own comfort than on comforting people worried about injecting teratogenic and neurotoxic chemicals into every infant with “menaces”.
Menace of NO public education or integration into society if refusers.
This CRIME against the CHILD and not the EVIL adults who would not allow a neurotoxic chemical injection that you CLAIM with TOTAL certainty is SAFE and HARMLESS.
That must be against Nuremberg and every other town that is interested in NATURAL justice? I didnt see any of Goerings or Hitlers children indited there?
Try telling that to Mr and Mrs Clark when Harry at 6 weeks DIED in less than six hours after a THIMEROSAL, TERATOGENIC and NEUROTOXIC injection.
Mrs Clark sadly is now dead. They give mercury vaccines to all UK prisoners. Thimerosal is not safe even if you IGNORE facts, science and common sense. Nobody has ever proved any neurotoxin safe and certainly not when injected into pregnant women.
But I am happy to study any of your evidence. Or was it a BLUFF?
I recently posted a big list of vaccine/autism studies. Those include many thimerosal studies. Go, take a look.
Frances Kelsey
A quote from the life of the lady who prevented the USA from accepting a neurotoxic drug, thalidomide is instructive. Drugs et al are handled differently by the pregnant animal. A fact very well accepted. For this reason vaccines used not to be tested in this way but bit by bit the custom has become universal.
There is today nobody to match this lady from the FDA and the goings on in 2011 by the Big p’Harmers and the FDA of today.
It would be good to get her views on thimerosal and its safety to inject into pregnant mothers and babies?
Has anyone taken the trouble to ask here?
Chris:
Currently, over half of all flu shots in the US, recommended as “safe” by the CDC and FDA for children and pregnant women, contain thimerosal preservative.
Jim Thompson,
Thimerosal containing vaccines are not used with pregnant women or children in my state: California. Can you point to where this has made a difference in the autism rates?
Sullivan:
Four years later in 2004, Dr. Verstraeten repeated a concern in a published letter stating that “more study is required.” See PEDIATRICS Vol. 113 No. 4 April 2004, pp. 932 at http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/113/4/932 .
But again, it is important to understand that the so called evidence of “safety” referenced here is seriously lacking–again, because there are no control groups, i.e. no dosed data sets vs. dosed data sets.
Sullivan:
Excellent question.
Does the IDEA data, for 7 year olds for instance, show a change for the seven states that ban it, based on the dates it was discontinued?
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/15/102755.shtml
Mr. Thompson, I wrote that pediatric vaccines were available in formulations without thimerosal. Four out of nine influenza vaccines are thimerosal free, as are two out of three DTaP vaccines. Your statement was just a nick picky pointless perseverance.
Hi Sullivan
The just published 2011 May study has come out and guess what.
We havent 4X clue whos got what today. No numbers and no names even.
That used to be the case in the Stone Age. One,two three, plenty.
I take the rule of thumb that autism was at 4 per 10 000
Today it is at 40 per 10 000 with the UK as world leaders followed by the USA.
Denmark comes in around number 40 or so and still rests around that ancient level of 4 per 1 000
All extremely rough estimates partly my fault but mostly as said no one seems to have a clue on numbers anyway.
I am happy for you to alter the numbers to more exact values PLEASE.
I must say people here have good knowledge
Can we not put our heads together sensibly though?
Hi Sullivan
I am seriously interested in your list can you give me the URL please.
I also said I believe which is not a get out or an anecdote.
New companies have set up marketing thimerosal so there is every reason to suppose there is more around.
The new publication actually points to the direction that autism is not going up.
This would do what to the mercury theory?
My problem is that ASP is often not discovered until the person is an adult while harm from vaccines or thimerosal in particular is a severe illness and when accurately diagnosed of course comes to zero autism and goes down as the side effect of a vaccine or mercury poisoning.
We are in an Alice in Wonderland World where nothing is straightforward, no hard facts are known but giving more and more vaccines and either more or less thimerosal at older or younger ages means no one has a clue what is going on or what is happening to the next generation, this generation or anything much.
I just stick to
THIMEROSAL is a CARCINOGEN
THIMEROSAL is a TERATOGEN
THIMEROSAL is a NEUROTOXIN
So why was it put in vaccines
Why was the exposure increased
And why is it still in thanks to Chris’s precision most of the flu vaccines?
Hi Sullivan
Autism
Denmark pre MMR 1 per 10 000 (source Chris 2003 Thorsen reference)
Denmark post MMR 5 per 10 000 (source as above)
USA post MMR 90 per 10 000 (source Wikipedia)
UK boys post MMR 200 per 10 000 ( quoted by molecular autism group much favoured here)
Are these figures comparable in rate to you?
To me it shows that Denmark rates are completely different to both the UK and USA and at VERY low levels.
The MMR theory rather than thimerosal hits you in the face.
Thimerosal is more a killer than anything (take case of Harry Clark)
A case study shows the frightening disrespect of the authorities to claims of harm AFTER MMR in Denmark which has allowed the rise albeit to levels already known in USA and UK.
MMR and AUTISM
A lady from Denmark had her HEALTHY child vaccinated with MMR and then that child became autistic.
We have her name.
We have her telephone number.
We know when she got her child vaccinated.
The doctors admit the two were connected.
The powers that be DENY EVERYTHING.
330 000 such side effects in the USA VAERS registry.
Any fool or even foolish government can deny these vaccine harms.
And before you can say ANAPHYLAXIS three times we have a million dead and tens of millions ill.
And the vaccine debacle rolls on unhindered.
Any objections and like Mrs Clark, objectionable jusdges put the parents in prison if they object.
Mr. Fryer,
there is an oft-made mistake of citing incidence and prevalence as the same thing. I have done it in the past. You are doing it now.
Are you aware of pubmed? Try this search in pubmed. Use the terms: denmark prevalence autism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=denmark%20prevalence%20autism
Second hit right now is A Comparison of Autism Prevalence Trends in Denmark and Western Australia. Prevalence in Denmark: 0.685%. Not that much lower than in the US.
Hi Sullivan
You quote LD50 levels for a mouse and then extrapolate to humans.
You CANNOT do this.
It is abundantly clear that mice are practically IMMUNE to mercury compared to a babe or a MAN for that matter.
Both the amount and or concentrations are at the level where nearly ALL the babes are left COMPLETELY UNHARMED and UNDAMAGED and in PERFECT HEALTH and immune from yet another vaccine preventable illness.
NONE of this is in the least doubt.
Pity about the 1 child in 2 000 or whatever that doesnt fit the one size fits all and dies though.
You are not the least bit worried about this death rate then?
We have been all through this in a long and tortuous process.
Drugs for children were taken as a special and different study from that of adults. Children are NOT little adults or big MICE.
We have practical observation of harm to infants all year and every year with no explanations.
While we argue that if the babe was a mouse or adult they would ALL survive we have iron clad proof that the amount in vaccines was too much hence the recall of thimerosal vaccines ten years ago.
In 2011 they are still there.
I used to get nowhere more than a decade ago arguing the EXACT opposite. They said yes we take your point that animals get killed but it is different for humans. They used pesticides at dangerous levels and argued that it was fine because the pesticides only targetted the bad insects and good insects and humans were inert to them. DDT was something to cover all over you and eat on your food. If you think about it a pesticide could not work unless at a lethal level. But they argue that lethal level is a nothing for a virile man. Like with autism and SIDS the rising illnesses from “safe” pesticides were just passed off as some virus for which we will give you curative vaccine. I did help to get a ban for one but like topsy it is coming back.
A century before it was the ubiquitous curative mercury compounds for every ill especially the worst and unmentionable ones. Today men and especially virile ones wont take the medicine so its down to the unborn babe or bankruptcy for the rothchilds?
“It is abundantly clear that mice are practically IMMUNE to mercury compared to a babe or a MAN for that matter.”
It is? Please, give us a reference with LD50 data for humans. Where on earth is there a study where humans were given high doses of mercury until 50% of them died?
There is no such data. Mr. Fryer, I wish you well. I wish you better, in fact.
@John Fryer, your response to my link above shows I can no longer give you the benefit of the doubt.
Just for clarifications sake, can you confirm that you are referring to Autism when you say “we are looking at different parts of the same monster”? Are you calling Autism a monster?
SULLIVAN – Please correct the misleading use of “Count” in your original post. It is giving people the wring idea.
Those are NOT the counts mentioned in the indictment, they are just the numbered paragraphs found in any indictment for the convenience of lawyers.
The actual counts in the indictment are on page 5 (the 13 alleged instances of wire fraud) and page 7 (9 alleged instances of money laundering).
Thanks for the reminder. I’ve done the corrections.
Hi Sullivan
Not sure I am being confused so much as the system of incidence/prevalence is inter used and not entirely self evident.
Add to this uncertainties of autism and / or ASD and we are casting around in the dark.
The Thorsen paper back in Sep 2003 clearly shows an INCIDENCE of whatever type of well under 1 case per 10 000 and it looks like autism was bouncing along at 0.2 which by my calculations means 1 new autism case every other year.
The Thorsen paper for 2011 shows a PREVALENCE of 68 per 10 000.
Now why should an author use one set of statistics in one paper and another in another?
I have to say I can understand what you are saying!
Data mining here can be absolutely confusing.
But in the Thorsen 2003 paper it talks of LESS than 1 000 people alive in Denmark with autism.
In a paper on prevalence for Australia it talks of nearly 11 000 children with autism (age 6 to 12). And of over 100 000 of all ages.
My head is going round on this and it will take time to sort it out.
However my first guess (and avoid the bad comments on this) is that it does very much put thimerosal largely out of the picture but it does bring in strongly MMR as this vaccine has universally been brought in around the globe and is one factor that seems to make sense of the data.
The Fig 1 of 2003 Thorsen is at virtyally ZERO until 1990 and this seriously implicates a vaccine coming in at this time.
Only MMR can explain this.
The fact it (autism) resists any down turn puts us in a thalidomide situation if everyone ignored France Kelsey et al and we took flipper births as part of the background.
As a retired person I see much autism today and never knew of it when small.
Downs was the thing then. Not the same.
I remember distinctly that after the Wakefield factor thenumber of parents who said yes it was after the MMR went up ten to a hundred fold smalling of jumping on the band wagon but from looking at parents complaining BEFORE Wakefield it is clear that there were parents noticing this change after MMR.
Science does evolve from OBSERVATION and although studying seriously MMR since January it seems as if it is not proven safe YET.
Rubella is a STRONG teratogen and may be more responsible than the measles part? As we have clear evidence that measles is not the culprit if the research is accurate.
Would be interested in serious ideas on this rather than the one up types usual here.
Hi
In which case that issue of why
32 cases of autism for those MMR’d
And
3 for non MMR
looks as if it DEMANDS an answer or is it avoiding data that doesnt fit your theories?
MMR contains RNA
RNA to my way of thinking go for mitochondria?
Right or wrong?
And mitochondria is the common ground for all camps?
The monster analogy is an allusion to finding the same causes which appear different but for large animals we may be examining completely different parts.
All on the right track but until the whole is identified they seem to be mutually exclusive.
People are trying to find measurable clinical signs for autism.
One such does involve platelets – destroyed by rubella vaccines and accepted by all.
This may or may not relate to serotonin and the melatonin pathways.
These clinicalsigns have been known of for several decades and still appear relevant.
There is for example known interaction eg with testosterone.
And to include Thorsen – why is he still publishing if he has been on the wanted list for several years.
An article in press at the moment ofhis.
Hi Sullivan
Re PREVALENCE
Found this
Click to access PrevalenceReport.pdf
September 2006
Shows the monumental effort needed for autism in Australia which as you said is a major problem as elsewhere.
I find it disturbing that such detail goes into huge organisations and so little is known about the numbers piling up in exponential fashion using Thorsen Figures from eg 2003.
Chris:
Re- your comment that “Four out of nine influenza vaccines are thimerosal free”
Over 54 percent of all flu shots in the US have Thimerosal Preservative – based on the CDC projected amount for the current season (2010-2011).
That is over 86 million shots!
Each of these shots has the same mercury by weight as a half cup of D009 mercury hazardous waste.
And they are recommended as “safe” for 6 month olds and pregnant women??
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaxsupply.htm
Sullivan:
Look at the literature review by Jose´ G. Do´rea at:
Click to access Dorea.2011-Neurochem+Res-Thim+toxicity.pdf
Then look at the brain cell damage listed in Table 1. It shows effects from thimerosal preservative at mercury levels of one nano-molar.
Then note that 0.201 parts per billion of mercury is equivalent to one nano-molar.
Now look at the Burbacher et al results of 16 parts per billion of inorganic mercury left in the infant monkey brain after mercury exposure (from thimerosal vaccine preservative) of 80 micrograms per kilogram.
“The average concentration of inorganic Hg did not change across the 28 days of washout and was approximately 16 ng/mL (Figure 7).” See page 1019 and Table 1 at page 1016 at http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchObjectAttachment.action;jsessionid=C7A64D4BDC214839867FC6B325A58BEE?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.7712&representation=PDF
So then these results of inorganic mercury found in the infant monkey brains, from thimerosal vaccine preservative exposure, after four average exposure doses of 20 micrograms per kilogram, infer a brain level of inorganic mercury of one nanomolar for every microgram per kilogram of exposure (see the equations below).
(16 parts per billion inorganic mercury)/(exposure of 80 micrograms/kg) =
(0.2 parts per billion inorganic mercury)/(exposure of 1 microgram/kg) =
(one nano-molar of inorganic mercury)/(exposure of 1 microgram/kg)
So this infers that a human newborn, similar to those in the Pichichero et al study, weighing 3.2 kilograms has about 10 micrograms/kg exposure level (from exposure of 32.5 micrograms of mercury) with about 10 nano-molars of inorganic mercury in the brain.
See Pichichero et al 2008 at http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/121/2/e208
This also infers that a human six month old weighing 8 kilograms has 7 micrograms/kg exposure level (from three shots with 57.5 micrograms total of mercury) and then has around 7 nano-molars of inorganic mercury in the brain.
So the inference from the infant monkey study shows over one nano-molar level of inorganic mercury in the brain and the references by Jose´ G. Do´rea indicate brain injury from thimerosal exposure with ONE nano-molar level of mercury. And there is no established safe level of mercury exposure nor a safe level for mercury levels in the human infant brain.
Hi
I think everyone has had a good discussion without getting too irate with each other, for which I thank everyone.
The Thorsen affair is just financial and I dont think his papers will come into the trial.
Autism is a real and seemingly rising condition that has outcomes varying from very mild to excruciatingly severe.
Causes are known and different but they seem to be neurotoxic or teratogenic and can be as simple as lead paint and children being small getting higher amounts than adults in the same environment as the stuff descends to the ground.
Landrigan puts the cost in the billions for treating lead damaged children.
When it comes to vaccines, thimerosal and MMR with possibly emphasis on rubella as much as the others there is fierce opposition.
There is no doubt that vaccines work and hence when brought in it is hard to do proper retrograde checking.
ANY NEW vaccine therefore must have the whole panaoply of visibility of testing possibly open to public scrutiny like the VAERS.
Jim has mentioned Dr Jose Dorea who I know gets his reasearch published which puts thimerosal where it needs to be out of vaccines but he has DIFFICULTY publishing and if anyone doesnt know why they cannot be very knowledgeable of the comings and goings of folk from regulation to industry and back again et al.
Or the search and destroy which has just claimed one more victim.
I hope everyone here is GENUINE and realises that as it is impossible to adopt the same attitude politically to Russia as to Iraq for obvious reasons and governments cannot admit our vaccines are bad for the very few but truth is they are and often people are lucky if the harm just rests at autism or the problems rest simply financial and not death and custodial action for those left behind to save the vaccine policy.
Sweden, Iceland, Finland and Norway ONLY give two lots of DTaP and the highest IMR is 3.58. Why is the death rate so LOW?
The UK, Canada, Australia and the USA give three lots of DTaP and the lowest IMR is 4.75. Why is the death rate so HIGH?
That translates to more than one extra death per thousand to children under 6 months of age.
Just imagine the saving of life with double protection from DTaP if we could just avoid the cost of billions of third lots of DTaP unnecessary for 99 per cent of those injected of which too many obey Charles Richets law of ANAPHYLACTIC death.
We are doing the right thing to vaccinate but we cant appreciate the safest way of doing it.
Three countries seem to have that magic secret of plenty of vaccines in safety those of Singapore, Japan and France.
Singapore is a mystery to me. France I know well and can explain if anyone wants to know but I have been slated for OBSERVATION as that is where I live now. Japan we also know takes safety SERIOUSLY, has stopped ALL vaccines until 2 years of age and stopped COMPLETELY the MMR at one point. The result is a STANDARD for us all at IMR 2.79.
Sadly with Fukushima, this low of IMR will not be held as we see the effects of plutonium pollution KICK in a most undeserving way for children not yet born or even thought of.
What a sad state of affairs for the world full of EXPERTS that are only EXPERT at ARROGANCE, IGNORANCE and failure to heed COMMON SENSE.
Mr. Fryer, everything you write will be considered to be pulled out of thin air. It a word, you are being ignored.
Mr. Thompson, your statements still do not change the fact that all pediatric vaccines are available without thimerosal. Your nit picking is still pointless, which is what happens when you argue semantics instead of data. At the present there is no correlation between thimerosal and autism.
And you other concerns on Pichichero were covered here. You may, if you wish, review the statements there. I see no reason to go repeat that to satisfy your perseverance over another nit picky detail.
All the while you are still ignoring that there is a difference between financial and scientific fraud, that Thorsen had little to do with the scientific findings, and there are several more studies that show no correlation between vaccines and autism.
If you wish to persevere on those pointless nit picks, then get your own blog.
Chris:
Thorsen’s alleged crime is NOT robbing a bank on his way to work on vaccine injury studies.
His alleged crime is robbing the CDC and the university that funded his work on vaccine injury studies.
Brain cell damage and the facts that the USEPA banned mercury use as a preservative in latex paint 20 years ago and that it is still used in a preservative in flu shots and recommended as safe for 6 month olds and pregnant women–these are not nit picky or pointless.
At present there is data that gives an association between autism and thimerosal–See graph 3 at http://www.safeminds.org/resea…..010229.pdf
See graph 3 at http://www.safeminds.org/research/library/20010229.pdf
re: “If you wish to persevere on those pointless nit picks, then get your own blog.”
Converation here could be more open, otherwise it risks “mission failure” in terms of protecting children.
What about protecting children from measles and other illnesses?
Mr. Thompson, I am sorry but links to SafeMinds do on constitute actual documentation of any evidence. Especially if they are “404 Not Found”, and badly scanned papers that you have already been told is out of date.
If you wish to discuss the science, then you must use proper cites available at my local medical school library, and they must be evaluated in the context of all the studies that have been done. That means no cherry picking, which is what you have been doing by persevering on the 2000 Verstraeten presentation and the studies done in Argentina (if you have an issue with the vaccines used there, take it up the authorities in that country)… and paint(?).
Mr. Thompson, until you can prove that Thorsen’s financial fraud in anyway destroys the more than twenty other studies that show no correlation between thimerosal and autism, and that the vaccines are worse than the diseases: you are just showing yourself to be a nit picky persevering pointless pontificating parasite.
Hi Brian
We are caught in a catch two situation.
Autism was once extremely rare and is now extremely common.
There has to be a reason for it and observation points to some sort of vaccine issue.
Yes, measles can kill and can leave the child damaged for life.
But why up to five repeats of the injection if vaccines work?
This brings up ANAPHYLAXIS issues. (work of Charles Richet)
But measles is also an illness and we can get over it without harm. I was given mercury treatments and I remember I was fine until I went to the doctor but at the time actually thought the doctor was a hero to recognise the illness and provide the treatment to get me better. Today I feel that treatment nearly killed me. Mercury medicines now confined to the history books except in vaccines.
I feel distinctly uneasy about the need to inject toxic, carcinogenic and teratogenic vaccines into very young babies. Thimerosal fits all three, rubella live virus fits one etc.
If you check the VAERS you find even adults have serious health issues after vaccines and some of the childrens vaccines are specifically prohibited from adults. DtaP for one.
Vaccine research itself shows harm and the only way a trial is considered safe is by using controls where as many get the deaths and permanent illness as the vaccine. The controls are not just saline solution and in some cases have all the toxic substances in the vaccine except for the vaccine. How can you pass a vaccine for use when 13 children are in the mortuary from a small trial?
In effect the vaccine is safe but there is no safe way to get it to the patient without these essential toxins. Vaccine plus everything is no more lethal than just the everything minus the virus. But both injections leave a trail of death and injury. But after 6 months most of these can be withstood safely.
When I was born there was a policy to give good food and nourishment full of vitamins. Vaccines came later andvery glad to get them I was. I could have said, dad, I dont want the XXXX. A luxury not shared by the one day babe. Isnt this against the Nuremberg Code much vaunted to say why a vaccine versus non vaccine would be unethical. Surely using that argument it is illegal to do medical interventions to a healthy child when remedies work even if the worst did happen.
Even in France this is often left to the mother with little guidance except for vaccines. Where are recommendations to get clean water, breast feed and the vitamins et al? I have found people I have helped where the child had clear vitamin deficiency, quite outrageous in 20 century USA. Prepared to inject mercury but not prepared to check that the baby wasnt vitamin deficient.
Rubella is a known teratogen and often this vaccine is actually given to the mother who may then breast feed a baby with a mix of viruses in her breast milk. The result is not only theoretically obvious but can be shown to induce sick children including autism.
All these things and the bad outcomes are well known to vaccine experts. But a billion dollar industry goes on.
The only miracle happening today is that autism is only up to 1 child in 50 for boys in the UK.
So many simple rules of health and hygiene are broken.
Research doctors around the world and the result of them striking.
Illness and death disappears.
We do need vaccines correctly developed, tested and used but while people argue about one death in the UK in ten years we have other ways of controlling illness including single safer vaccines.
Further if you look at new illness we are probably getting several new illnesses for each new vaccine so we are losing ground.
No BCG in the UK as it doesnt work.
The debate here concerns whether Thorsen is seeding false information and in addition when that actually supports vaccine harm everybody looks the other way.
France with its vaccine policy has an impeccable record because of the BACK UP.
USA clearly with similar amounts of vaccines fails with this lack of back up.
Clearly deaths relate to the use of vaccines but variation occurs because of good or bad health care in other areas.
The USA system is to SHOOT UP baby and LITTLE ELSE.
France on the other hand has a COMPLETE HEALTH service.
To give one example. A set of drugs given and EVERY week a FULL COMPLETE BLOOD check; any harm to the liver etc found within a day or two so REMEDIAL action taken in days. I have looked at charges for murder where no blood work was done at all. As for tallness everyone is different so one limited chack post mortem proves little except the trial is based more on Witch Finding than Justice.
In USA a jab is given and then 2 months passes with children suffering quietly or not quietly. An older person would have a few choice words if not immediately killed by a bad shot.
Autism is a crisis and occurs because of the health crisis in the world.
Lack of finding the cause is the biggest crisis at the moment but even as we discuss the worlds biggest health crisis it is likely to be insignificant to future ill health problems.
And these vaccine preventable illnesses are with us despite this multibillion dollar and multibillion number of jabs.
Assumed safe because of huge numbers givenbut silence onhuge numbers dead or ill following these jabs.
The antivaccine people are not antivaccine but want protection not the illness and other complications.
They demand health care not dependent illness needing treatments that then lead to more illness.
People forget vaccines are not given to sick people. People get SICK in large numbers after receiving vaccines.
Autism was just autism.
Today its autism plus gut ache
Today its autism plus epilepsy
Today its autism plus bad hearing
etc etc.
Chris
You say:
« Mr. Thompson, until you can prove that Thorsen’s financial fraud in anyway destroys the more than twenty other studies that show no correlation between thimerosal and autism …. »
Dr Thorsen has been charged with various things but has NOT yet been proven guilty.
Likewise for Dr Wakefield charged with fraud by a journalist and reiterated in the BMJ.
All unresolved issues. Lots of steam, lots of allegations but like the origins of AIDS, SIDS and autism little is really known, YET.
Twenty studies that show no correlation between thimerosal and autism. I would love to know which twenty studies you refer to.
I see no studies that you refer to and even if they were genuinely there how do you in a fail safe society deny repeated known observation of vaccine harm more than a million times over.
VAERS records more than a third of a million side effects of vaccines with many amateurs studying the data while government just sit on their hands. Helped by denying they show anything. Lots of people who drop dead in hours after vaccines are not on this register because it is known to few people. I would guess that 9 out of 10 people are unaware of the VAERS system.
For example work peer reviewed and published by Tom shows a 10 fold relationship but is classed as one that shows no relationship. So grateful were they, that today he is their top boy.
Others closer to home, as I have contacted some in great detail about their work and it is apparent to me that their recent work is sowing the seeds of confusion while their work during their productive days reflects their attempts partly succesful to remove mercury from agriculture, medicine and use in the home.
Are you not aware of the policy above of seeding? The BMJ is vituperative towards Wakefield and his attitude to vaccines but has done a secret deal with the very company (Merck) that markets the MMR vaccine with a strong teratogen and which for lots of people is known to destroy their platelets long after the injection event. Myown efforts to publish their meet now with 100 per cent refusal to print anything I write. As the UK government also adopt the same attitude with me and thousands of others.
When complaining of other issues, they did a 16 million page report which FAILED to mention the CHEMICAL NEUROTOXIN that their epidemiologist found a 100 per cent correlation with. If this doesnt convince you of cover ups of bad chemicals nothing will.
Students revisiting this issue will be missing the actual cause of the catastrophe while needing possibly a year to take in all the obfuscation, lies and cover ups. Inlcuding at least one Nobel Prize to a hack scientist who succeeded in sowing doubts about chemical harm by inventing like Wakefield a NOVEL concept for illness.
Mercury in TINY amounts known in adults to have a delay time of many months also from exposure to effect and known to reduce even speaking adults to silence.
Jose Dorea work even this year and practically this month shows a review of KNOWN harm stretching back for decades. Peer reviewed and ACCEPTED despite the message which in a JUST world would mean the real end to mercury vaccines instead of the IMAGINARY end that propaganda tells us was achieved ten years ago. Is the thimerosal in DtaP, flu, hib etc etc really absolute zero?
We are here in a forum of huge expertise as opposed to that of having to handle, to be political or control the well being of the nation. Dont get side tracked by those that sow seeds of doubt. Hang on to simple facts. Toxins are toxic. Teratogenic moities are teratogens do produce MONSTERS, though most of those are flushed down the hospital sinks ortoilets at homeif there. Thalidomide was AVERTED but THIMEROSAL and RUBELLA harm continues.
99 per cent of the public go along with the government and the vaccine industry because they KNOW they will not harm us. Words from Stephen Clarke after he lost two children but not the third. PROGRESS on vaccine knowledge!
The top CIA agent and most succesful agent in the Worlds history for destroying the Russian nation and then turning the wroth of the West against several defenceless and USA supported countries just killed effectively by their own agents. (Operation Cyclone)
Shows the mentality of ABSOLUTE POWER. Sadly there is NOTHING we can do about it.
You never came back about that 30 autism for those having MMR versus 3 that did not get MMR.
The benefits of vaccines are not disputed by me.
What is in dispute is the more than one million dead infants called SIDS which arrive at the time of their vaccines and the tens of millions with autism for which the demand of the cause is sufficient and not answered by propaganda that it cant be an autism generating virus given to pregnant mothers, mothers about to be pregnant, mothers breast feeding their children and of course that denial that giving several lots of MMR at an age when ALL babies cannot respond properly to vaccines
To save that one death every ten years in the UK for such a debacle is BIZARRE.
Conspiracy tells us that it is a failed effort to control population expansion but the Chinese experience tells us this cannot be the real reason as some countries have resolved their issues without recourse to sudden death or lifelong dependency for the SURVIVORS.
Many issues on many things are debatable but as a chemist I can adopt the OFFIT attitude and say categorically that the issue of how safe and nutritious thimerosal is for the unborn infant, the one day child and the two month child and then repeated at one yearly intervals until death of dementia intervene is not up for debate.
There is only ONE side. Thimerosal is a TOXIC CHEMICAL which is TERATOGENIC, CARCONOGENIC and has NO PLACE for the babies mentioned above of which more than a million SUCCUMBED immediately.
Anyonethat disputes this is GUILTY of FINANCIAL FRAUD, CRIMINAL FRAUD, ATTEMPTED and ACTUAL MASS MURDER.
Crimes like buying up scientific journals, creating false scientifc journals, searching and destroying careers, seeding false data in journals, obfuscating etc etc are crimes but are dwarfed by MASS MURDER.
In case this is not clear injecting a substance known to exceed the LD50 (for babies of the age injected rather than mice by rats) at just ten times the level in babies is NOT agood idea.
And you dont need to be scientist to know that but pay a scientist enough and they will argue the point (possibly to get more money?)
The debate is not easy but you cant ignore observation and call it anecdote unless you wish to be party to genocide.
Scientists knew that the earth travelled around the sun thousands of years ago but religious science knew better. There is only ONE side to this debate. The EARTH is at the centre of the unvierse.
Today VACCINES are the NEW religious centre of the universe.
While observational science tells us that with 3 500 000 OLD illnesses and NEW illness arriving at ten times the rate of new vaccines that VITAMINS et al beat TERATOGENS and are the best « vaccine » that we know of to keep healthy people HEALTHY.
The moderator here might remind everyone here that this discourse should remain civil by treating others with respect and dignity.
Chris:
The data is not “out of date.” This data is an important piece of the safety issue for thimerosal vaccine preservative and was obtained with a freedom of information act request.
And failing to ignore signs of injury in data is by no means “cherry picking.”
And the fact that there is no established “safe” level of thimerosal exposure levels, this fact causes any attempt to downplay recognition of that data to be unsuccessful.
The Thorsen team’s epidemiological analyses reported an association between reduced thimerosal exposure levels and increased autism. That should have raised concerns about the inadequate attention to the extraneous variables, i.e. outpatient clinic inclusion in the middle of the time line of data evaluation.
And finally, one must recognize that Thorsen’s alleged theft supports a hypothesis that he had a financial motive to push his team for biased results–for example, results favorable to the CDC efforts (then and now) in regards downplaying the unknown quantitative values of risk of fetal and infant brain injury from the mercury based vaccine preservative thimerosal.
Brian:
Measles has a risk, yes but also increased heavy metal exposure to the developing human brain has a risk.
Jim Thompson
We are discussing the risks of a specific ‘heavy metal’ exposure are we not? That’s ethyl mercury, not heavy metals in general.
Tell us what the risks are from the exposure of the developing human brain to ethyl mercury when part of the composition of vaccines, (a) as a residue of the manufacturing process and (b) as a preservative for the finished product where it is still being used as such. Then balance the risks you give against the consequences of cases of measles infection resulting from not vaccinating. What do the campaigners against any use of ethyl mercury as a protective component suggest as an alternative constituent where such is needed?
Please provide PubMed citations.