Karen McCarron asks for new trial, claims she believed Katie would be resurrected without autism

27 Oct

Karen McCarron was the mother of a beautiful daughter. I don’t think I will ever forget the image of Katie playing with her teletubbie doll. In 2006, Karen McCarron was tried and convicted of the murder of Katie.

In Convicted child killer Karen McCarron wants new trial, we find that Karen McCarron wants a new trial. She claims her attorney was not doing his job properly and that she (Karen) was suffering from religious delusions at the time:

Fischer said McCarron believed she was “not killing her (daughter) forever and Jesus Christ would resurrect her,” similar to a passage McCarron read in the Bible, and also believed her daughter would be resurrected without autism. Only later when McCarron realized her daughter was not being resurrected did she “snap out of it,” Fischer later said.

Recall that Karen McCarron was a doctor. A pathologist. The unfortunate fact is that Karen McCarron like had ample experience with the fact that when people die, they don’t get resurrected.

Let’s recall what Karen McCarron had to say during her 2006 trial:

……..McCarron told her defense attorney that she felt responsible for Katie’s autism because she allowed her the child [sic] to get vaccinated.

Katie was suffocated with a garbage bag. A police technician examined a bag entered as evidence for DNA:

According to Midden, a DNA substance was retrieved after she noticed possible teeth marks on the inside of the bag.

Possible teeth marks on the inside of the bag. Katie fought to live. Karen McCarron must have fought to kill Katie.

Rereading these descriptions is extremely painful, and Katie isn’t even a relative. I’ve never met any of the McCarron family in real life. My heart goes out to them as this story gets dragged up again.

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47 Responses to “Karen McCarron asks for new trial, claims she believed Katie would be resurrected without autism”

  1. Liz Ditz October 28, 2011 at 02:46 #

    I went back and read the posts from the time of Katie’s cruel murder, and some from the time of the trial.

    Then I went outside and cried for a while — mostly for Katie — and tried to wrap my mind around Karen’s plea.

    I can’t.

  2. Anne October 28, 2011 at 05:12 #

    I’m no expert on Christian doctrine, but I think it includes the idea that certain people will ultimately be resurrected in “perfect” form. I guess a lot of people believe that without thinking that it would therefore be okay to kill people.

    In her first appeal, McCarron lost on the issue of whether she had proved an insanity defense. In the opinion on that appeal, People v. Frank-McCarron, the appeals court explained that the Illinois insanity defense requires that the defendant prove that “as a result of mental disease or mental defect, he lacks substantial capacity to appreciate the criminality of his conduct.” The appeals court thought that the evidence of how McCarron planned and then covered up the murder supported the jury’s rejection of the defense. A person could have a “mental disease or defect” – whether it is “psychotic depression” (the evidence McCarron put on at trial) or “religious delusions” – and still appreciate that murder is a crime.

    As far as the drunken lawyer defense goes, if there’s any merit to it, it could have been raised in the first appeal. The trial lawyer didn’t handle the appeal – McCarron had different lawyers for that. If there was ineffective assistance of counsel at trial, it should have been raised on appeal. Unless maybe both the trial attorney and the appellate attorneys were drunk which, if they were, I wouldn’t blame them. It would be a terrible case to work on.

  3. Ren October 28, 2011 at 16:38 #

    This is an example of why I am all for shoving science and religion together in a room and having them work out their differences. I’m serious. If someone in her congregation (or her family, or someone, anyone) had explained to her that autism is far from a curse from God or that the concept of resurrection doesn’t work that way, this all could have been avoided. But, for some stupid reason, people of science and people of religion have (for the most part) avoided each other like the plague. No pun intended.

    It is very unlikely that a meeting of the minds like that will ever happen… But I can hope.

  4. stanley seigler October 28, 2011 at 16:45 #

    [LBRB say] Karen McCarron wants a new trial. She claims her attorney was not doing his job properly and that she (Karen) was suffering from religious delusions at the time…

    COMMENT
    parents of special need kids should voluntarily or be required to take a psychiatric exam to see if they can care for their child…or to determine what help they need to do so…further there should be adequate support…

    instead in USA, our compassion christion society, in all too many instances, throw these children and parents to the wolves…but,

    it’s fully understable why it has to be like this…the top 1% need tax breaks…pray there aint no hell.

    karen needed help before the act…guess she is getting it now…but has to and should pay the price for murder.

    stanley seigler

  5. MikeMa October 28, 2011 at 23:20 #

    She blames vaccines? I wonder where she got that erroneous idea? Might be educational to examine this woman’s computer to see if she was lead to this by the lies of others.

  6. Shanna October 29, 2011 at 17:14 #

    This is just a ploy. I don’t buy that she believed she would be resurrected.

    I have no idea why some parent’s of children with autism are so desperate to have a “normal” child. The only reason I get therapy for my son is to better his quality of life. It has nothing to do with me wanting him to be “normal”. I love him just as he is which happens to be wonderful. He is nearly 6 and still very behind and completely non-verbal and at times it can be a struggle. But most of the time, he is just pure joy.

    I feel sorry that there are some parents out there that can’t simply accept their child’s differences and learn to embrace them. My son is not a tragedy. He is a gift.

  7. Science Mom October 29, 2011 at 18:50 #

    This is an example of why I am all for shoving science and religion together in a room and having them work out their differences. I’m serious. If someone in her congregation (or her family, or someone, anyone) had explained to her that autism is far from a curse from God or that the concept of resurrection doesn’t work that way, this all could have been avoided. But, for some stupid reason, people of science and people of religion have (for the most part) avoided each other like the plague. No pun intended.

    It is very unlikely that a meeting of the minds like that will ever happen… But I can hope.

    @ Ren, unless I am misinterpreting your statements, I say that you are asserting a false balance argument. There is no religion in science and no science to religion, thus there is no need to “duke it out”. Sure “true believers” try to abuse science to validate their beliefs but it is a very wrong tact to take. Dr. McCarron is a physician and I am also of the belief that this is a ploy to get out of jail. She eschewed science in favour of pseudo-science (i.e. vaccines caused her daughter’s autism) so I don’t really understand what you would have expected “science” and “religion” to do here.

  8. daedalus2u October 29, 2011 at 19:32 #

    I have a hypothesis as to why some parents of ASD children are so invested in doing something, anything to make them “normal” and why they have the sentiment of “better dead than autistic”.

    http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/2010/03/physiology-behind-xenophobia.html

    I think that to some NTs, a person with autism triggers xenophobia. What I mean by xenophobia is a visceral hatred, a deep, dehumanizing “othering”, where the object of xenophobia is not considered to be human and so is incapable of human-like attributes like feelings and the ability to love and be loved. A non-human object lacking the ability to have human feelings is impervious to injury. Just as you can’t hurt the feelings of an inanimate object, you can’t hurt the feelings of a person with autism who is perceived (by such people) to not have any human-like feelings that are capable of being hurt.

    I think this is the feeling behind the curebie mindset and the idea that autism has “stolen” the child from the parent.

    I think that a lot of anti-vax parents have managed to displace the hatred they feel toward their child onto “autism” as a malevolent entity (as when Karen McCarron reported “hating autism”, not her child with autism). That depth and kind of hatred needs an anthropomorphic target; the vaccine industry, Big Pharma, Paul Offit, Drs who vaccinate, non-curebies, people who have the something that was stolen from these curebie parents, the ability to have positive feelings about their child with autism.

    I think this is a minority of parents of children with autism, but I think it is the minority that is driving all the quackery, all the anti-vax stuff, all the anti-mercury stuff, all the biomedical curebie stuff. I think they are having extreme difficulty appreciating that their actions are about their feelings toward their child, and not about their child. Appreciating the difference between something and feelings about something takes a bit of dissociation from feelings that NTs often have difficulty with.

  9. Kassiane October 29, 2011 at 23:51 #

    Yeah. I don’t believe she actually believed that.

    I just found a whole pile of the ribbons for Katie when I was cleaning out my room. I can’t in good conscience do anything but keep them.

    My thoughts & love go out to Katie’s dad & grandparents & other loved ones-this cannot be easy for them at all. That child was (and still is, I’m sure) so loved.

  10. clubduvet October 30, 2011 at 18:26 #

    Wonderfully put Shanna I couldn’t have said it better myself and in fact it is exactly the same situation for us with our son as is yours by the sound.

  11. Christian G. October 31, 2011 at 16:11 #

    @ daedalus2u

    You are a bitter, deluded person whose hatred of your own limitations have been projected into those questioning the cause of their child’s autism. To even suggest that ANY parent hates their kid much less offer such a sweeping xenophobic statement betrays your sense of reasoning. in all things. Shame on you.

    Autism is a harsh reality upon those expecting a child who will one day grow up, begin a career and someday have children of their own. To subject your normally developing child to a series of vaccines and within a month the child not only regresses but fails to thrive would cause any parent to search for answers. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but there are no answers as to the cause. And so then, the parent may suffer guilt, “Did this happen because I had my child vaccinated?” A valid question when there are so many various confounding answers.

  12. MikeMa October 31, 2011 at 16:38 #

    @Christian G.
    You confuse correlation and causation. There is no credible evidence supporting a vaccine-autism link. So the answer to your question is: No.

    The best evidence accumulated so far points to a genetic link but that is not close to certain. If you insist on guilt, that is as good a spot as any to place it. But guilt is a time and energy sink. Better to accept and love the child (a thing you cannot change) and adjust your own expectations (a thing you can change). That way everyone wins and no one is killing a child because it is autistic and they needed/expected perfection.

  13. Ren October 31, 2011 at 17:05 #

    @ScienceMom

    What I’m trying to say is that it is irresponsible of any religious leader to say that things happen in an unnatural or supernatural way when those thing have been proven to be something else. Likewise, it’s irresponsible for persons of science to try and be “respectful” of others’ beliefs out of fear for offending.

    For example, I would never tell a Jehova’s Witness who has a hemoglobin of 4.2 g/dL that it’s perfectly okay for them to reject a blood transfusion based on their belief regarding such medical interventions. Likewise, any priest (pastor, Imam, Rabbi) cannot in good conscience deny a scientific fact without that making them an outright liar. A truth cannot deny another truth.

    Someone dropped the ball in this case and did not fully inform this mother all the facts about autism or about resurrection. There was a failure on both sides. Maybe it would be better if I said that I want religious leaders to agree that testable and observable events cannot be denied based on some dogmatic belief. I also want scientists to inform (with respect and a lot patience) those whose beliefs may put them in mortal danger. As a “believer” myself, I find nothing sinful or wrong with stating scientific evidence like it is. (That stance has gotten me in trouble with family and friends, but, again, a truth cannot deny a truth.)

  14. Christian G. October 31, 2011 at 17:11 #

    Mothers kill their own children it seems every day. They put them in microwave ovens, starve them to death, choke them, stab them, drown, shoot them for a myriad of reasons. To lump this child killer in with mothers and fathers who are searching for answers instead of the criminal lot is in itself a time and energy sink… and a deliberate attempt at linking her act to those who want to “cure” their child out of it’s misery. This doctor was simply insane, same as those mothers who kill their children to rid them of a demon.

  15. MikeMa October 31, 2011 at 17:39 #

    @Christian G.
    Only Karen, Katie’s mother, knows why she took her daughter’s life. Some evidence seems to point to Karen’s dissatisfaction with a less than perfect child. The persistent search for a vaccine link to autism is counter-productive and seems to point to a need to find a cause to blame rather than acceptance. That focus leads down the path that may have contributed to Katie’s death. You call it insanity and that may well be true but it doesn’t change the fact that the child is dead and a possible reason is her autism.

  16. Christian G. October 31, 2011 at 18:13 #

    A possible reason could also be that it was Monday. Wanting what’s best for your child and questioning what the cause is hardly relates to the insanity of people like Brenda Ann Spencer and Dr.McCarron as daedalus2u said it does.

    Brenda Ann Spencer (born April 3, 1962) is a convicted American murderer who carried out a shooting spree from her home in San Diego, California, on January 29, 1979. During the shooting spree, she killed two people and injured nine others at Cleveland Elementary School, which was located across the street from her home. Spencer showed no remorse for her crime, and her full explanation for her actions was “I don’t like Mondays; this livens up the day,”

    • Sullivan October 31, 2011 at 19:27 #

      “and a deliberate attempt at linking her act to those who want to “cure” their child out of it’s misery.”

      You appear to be making exactly the mistake that, yes, I decry in contributing to Katie McCarron’s death: equating disability, in specific, autism, with misery.

      Let’s assume she is insane, for the sake of argument (I, and 12 of her peers, disagree): this is precisely why creating the culture of pity and misery is irresponsible. The majority will not take Karen McCarron’s path. Some will. And have since.

    • Sullivan October 31, 2011 at 19:51 #

      “A possible reason could also be that it was Monday…”

      I find this entire comment insulting and degrading to a family which has suffered a great deal. Perhaps it is not my place, but this comment is pathetic.

  17. Anne October 31, 2011 at 18:28 #

    Ren, I think this is just an excuse McCarron cooked up after the fact.

    Christian G., it was McCarron herself who said she was trying to cure Katie’s autism by killing her. According to the appellate opinion, McCarron was obsessed with treating Katie’s autism and felt guilty that Katie was not progressing with the treatments. She said she thought that she might be able to cure Katie’s autism by killing her, and said “to get rid of autism, I had to kill a child.” By all accounts Katie was a happy and playful little girl, not a child who was living a life of unremitting suffering. It’s hard for me not to see her as a victim of the autism cure industry.

  18. daedalus2u October 31, 2011 at 21:07 #

    Christian, by all accounts she was a curebie. By all accounts she did subscribe to the curebie mindset of “better dead than autistic”. I do happen to think that the curebie mindset is a delusional one, but one that does not rise to the level of “insanity” (a legal term, not a medical one). If the curebie mindset did rise to the level of criminal insanity, then the curebies who do subscribe to the “better dead than autistic” mindset should be committed as a danger to themselves and others.

    Even if she did have the religious delusion that killing Katie would cause her to be resurrected without autism, that does not make her act non-criminal by reason of insanity. There is no Christian religious doctrine that allows for killing someone to save them via resurrection. Killing a defenseless child is always forbidden by Christianity.

    Are you unfamiliar with the child abuse literature? Sometimes parents badly abuse their own children. Sometimes they even kill their children via maltreatment. If you read what I linked to, I give quite a few examples. One of the most relevant is that of changelings. The idea behind changelings was that a normal human child was stolen and the physically identical child of a fairy was left in its place. This is identical to the metaphor that many curebie parents use, that their child was “stolen” by autism.

    I am not the slightest bit bitter or deluded. I have a life that satisfies me. There are ways it could be better and ways that it could be worse. I am quite free from delusions, thank you very much, and have the ability to think deeply and clearly about even things that are very unpleasant to think about.

    I have what is perhaps the most important trait for a researcher, and one that is helped by my Asperger’s; the ability to not fool myself. The ability to think about facts as they are, and not as I want them to be. This is not a trait that is highly favored by most NTs. The trait most favored by NTs is the ability to decide what you want to be true and then convince everyone else that it is true. This is the definition of a charismatic leader. This is the “reality distortion field” that Steve Jobs had. Not to take anything away from Steve Jobs, but that is why he spent 9 months pursuing quackery instead of real medicine.

    I know my limitations. What bothers me most about them is that I am not able to make myself be understood. I feel that if I were understood, that a great many people could have better lives sooner. Not just people with autism and those who care about them, but a great many other people too. My inability to make myself be understood is extremely frustrating to me.

    I appreciate that people who are curebies are unable to understand me, or even to perceive that I am a human being with human feelings that can be hurt. I understand their need to rationalize the feelings they have, even though I do not share that need. I understand their need to lash out and to try and externalize their feelings.

    Transferring feelings of hatred from your autistic child to an adult actually protects the child. I have sympathy for such parents, even as they direct their hatred toward me and others. I do not have sympathy for the quacks who exploit such parents, enabling and fostering the delusional view of “better dead than autistic”, even as they ghoulishly extract as much money as they can from them until discarding them; broke, with children injured from their quack treatments, and with no skills to manage or cope with their child, and no money to get real help from anyone else.

  19. stanley seigler November 1, 2011 at 00:47 #

    LBRB,
    the below submitted…not posted. pls advise if acceptable…IF THEN, post and delete all except this one…as many of my comments are not posted before similar note to LBRB…is there a message i should be getting…:<) no problem whatever… just autistic, paranoid, wondering…
    thanks, stanley seigler

    THE BELOW
    [Kassiane say] I don’t believe she actually believed that.

    COMMENT
    if "that" is that katie would rise again on the third day perfect…or be in heaven: agree. OTOH;
    she has to be a very sick person…

    [daedalus2u say] I think this is a minority of parents of children with autism, but I think it is the minority that is driving all the quackery, etc…

    COMMENT
    the fringe does drive most quackery…however; i believe the antiVAX is also DRIVEN by parents who believe there is a chance VAX could cause or trigger autism…and they love their child dearly and unconditionally.

    as mentioned somewhere on LBRB "there is no absolute certainty of belief or disbelief…"
    many seem avoid the painfully obvious (at least to me)…which is:

    “Vaccines have saved untold millions of lives, and the vast majority of people who get them suffer no major problems.” and “…experts don’t dispute that vaccine can, in rare instances, cause damage.”

    no need to list studies…i am aware of most…most confirm the above…my opine is mostly the results of LBRB discussions. (daedalus2u , etal)…thanks etal.

    stanley seigler

  20. Christian G. November 1, 2011 at 02:35 #

    “better dead than autistic”

    Are you serious? Who? Where? For real? Never in my life have I heard such a thing. You self-describe yourself as, “I have what is perhaps the most important trait for a researcher, and one that is helped by my Asperger’s; the ability to not fool myself. The ability to think about facts as they are, and not as I want them to be. ”

    @Sullivan

    “A possible reason could also be that it was Monday…”

    “I find this entire comment insulting and degrading to a family which has suffered a great deal. Perhaps it is not my place, but this comment is pathetic.”

    That’s your opinion, you’re entitled to it. I suppose you know this family. You spent time with them while they were living in North Carolina, your child was friends with Katie I’m sure. Or wait, maybe you learned about them by reading the newspaper or People Magazine. I’m sure you know exactly how the family feels about any of this. Good for you woman, I’m impressed.

  21. Christian G. November 1, 2011 at 02:45 #

    I bow to the wisdom of deadelous, never heard of such a thing until now.

    Martin Luther, the influential church reformer was not only an avid storyteller, but — as his own writings demonstrate — he was also a true believer in changelings. Luther was very much a product of his own times with respect to superstitious beliefs and practices. He sincerely believed that Satan was responsible for the malformed children known as changelings, and that such satanic child exchanges occurred frequently. In Luther’s theological view, a changeling was a child of the devil without a human soul, “only a piece of flesh.” This view made it easy to justify almost any abuse of an unfortunate child thought to be a changeling, including the ultimate mistreatment: infanticide. Luther himself had no reservations about putting such children to death.

    • Sullivan November 1, 2011 at 04:15 #

      Christian G.,

      if or what nature my interactions with the family may be is something I will not share. As Chris has pointed out, Kev, the owner of this blog, has been open about his interactions with the McCarron family.

      For example, this comment.

      I am more than entitled to voice my opinion. I have the responsibility to voice my opinion against ignorant and harmful statements such as yours.

    • Sullivan November 1, 2011 at 04:25 #

      Christian G.,

      not all of the posts about Katie are categorized, but 11 are. The Katie McCarron story may be news to you, but it isn’t here.

  22. Kassiane November 1, 2011 at 03:33 #

    If you’ve never seen people saying “better dead than autistic” you need to open your eyes. It’s the whole ethos of antivaccinationism FFS.

    • Sullivan November 1, 2011 at 04:40 #

      Kassiane,

      you reminded me of a statement by Andrew Wakefield, where he praised a parent for a “better dead than autistic” type of statement.

      When I first got involved in this, 15 years ago, I got a call from a parent in the North of England who said ‘Dr Wakefield please do not judge me harshly but when I die I’m taking my child with me, because I’m the only one who loves him’ and I didn’t judge that mother at all. In fact I was moved by the love of a mother must have for her child to take his life rather than him fall upon a society that really didn’t give a damn.

  23. Chris November 1, 2011 at 04:10 #

    It might help to read this five year old article from this blog:
    https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2006/05/katherine-katie-mccarron/

  24. Sullivan November 1, 2011 at 04:36 #

    Christian G.

    your Martin Luther story is not only a fairly obvious troll, it is a cut and paste job.

    http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/changeling.html

  25. Christian G. November 1, 2011 at 04:42 #

    “But Katie was murdered. Her situation is not about bio-meds vs. ABA, she was not given the opportunity to have any of those work or not work. People can talk all they wish about the stress of being a care giver. Katie’s care givers were my son and my wife along with a number of other people in North Carolina, they cherish every moment they had with her.”

    Katie’s story is oh so familiar to me, that’s why I came to this blog. And what do I find, know-it-alls. And this is a perfect example of the sort of defiant arrogance that killed Katie. You are all so very brilliant, just like Karen.

    And as for “better dead than autistic”, I’m sorry, is it the perception you have about the, as you call them, “curbies” or has anyone from that camp actually said that? It is my impression that these parents wanting to rid their child of a disorder that, at best, plagues the child’s social ability to such a degree that they have basically no societal common “value” other than as an economic stimulus for healthcare industry, special-ed teachers and for those seeking cheap labor. What parent wouldn’t want a change? Oh that’s right, the ones with better things to do than try to encourage their sons and daughters to be healthy and independent in life. Surely it wouldn’t be someone like you or your parents.

    • Sullivan November 1, 2011 at 04:47 #

      “or has anyone from that camp actually said that?”

      Ironic that you appear to have been typing that at the same time I was posting an example.

  26. daedalus2u November 1, 2011 at 04:48 #

    Christian, you might do a google search on the phrase, “better dead than autistic”. It gives about a 1000 hits, some of them to this blog where the topic is discussed.

    I am very glad for you, that you don’t have and don’t understand that kind of mindset.

    It is very troubling that it exists. That it does exist is not in doubt. I don’t subscribe to the supernatural, so when I find something I feel compelled to explain, I need to come up with naturalistic explanations. Xenophobia is quite common in humans and covers a lot of different modalities, ethnicity, religion, gender, politics, sexual orientation. Such things can’t be genetic, there can’t be genes to code for “liberal” detector or an ethnicity detector. There could be genes to code for neuroanatomy for learning xenophobia and learning who to apply it to.

    What is quite troubling about it is that many adults have the mindset and don’t seem to appreciate that they have it and don’t care to do anything to rid themselves of the mindset. I see it as much the same as any other kind of bigotry and I think it comes from the same physiology. A great many autistic adults have experienced bullying simply because they are autistic.

    This is the context in which genetic testing and eugenics is brought up in. I happen to think that there will never be a genetic test for autism, that autism is fundamentally not a property of a genotype, it is a property of a phenotype. I think that essentially any human genotype can produce an autistic phenotype depending on the “details” of neurodevelopment.

  27. Christian G. November 1, 2011 at 05:03 #

    Sullivan if you don’t mind I would like to cut and paste your cut and paste.

    “When I first got involved in this, 15 years ago, I got a call from a parent in the North of England who said ‘Dr Wakefield please do not judge me harshly but when I die I’m taking my child with me, because I’m the only one who loves him’ and I didn’t judge that mother at all. In fact I was moved by the love of a mother must have for her child to take his life rather than him fall upon a society that really didn’t give a damn.”

    Where is it Wakefield said this? Oh yeah here, http://vimeo.com/12079650 and what was it said after this quote? He talked about the darkness these desperate parents are put in by those that deny the epidemic of autism. These parents are alone, many literally, husbands long ago vanished, grandparents suggesting institutional care or exorcism as a way of treatment, schools unprepared, government touting studies pointing to genetics rather than recognizing eye witness accounts of what the parent relates to and believes. These children and primarily their mothers are left roadside to fend for themselves, no thanks to the lot of you folk.

    But… supposing Wakefield supports this woman’s, analogy or cry for help, or whatever it simply shows he has a heart, an ability to feel empathy, to place himself in her shoes for a moment and is speaking emotionally, metaphorically. But then maybe that’s too much for you to grasp while you are so tied up with hate. Wakefield was expressing love, illustrating love.

    No sane parent would say, “better dead than autistic” is a paranoid manifestation, no one says such a thing outside of your own head, how could they? Well unless they are from the Tea Party because death is cheaper than the 3 million it will cost taxpayers over the short life expectancy of each person diagnosed with autism as a child.

  28. Christian G. November 1, 2011 at 05:15 #

    @daedalus2u

    I’m serious, the changelings lore is fascinating. I never heard of it. Thank you.

    But I’m not buying “better dead than autistic” unless Martin Luther said it. 🙂

  29. McD November 1, 2011 at 08:15 #

    what daedalus said 🙂

    With possibly a factor not often mentioned – toilet training. I suspect it may be behind the obsession with diets and bowel movements found in some sectors of the autism parent community.

    Until we did a six week waking-til-bed-time intensive ABA toilet training stint before the lad went to school, the issue of poos was just a freaking nightmare.

    Cleaning up poos from walls, furniture, clothes, carpet and the like can really do your head in. On one occaision I gave the lad spaghetti bolognese. He was eating at the dining room table while I was pottering in the kitchen. A few minutes later I looked over and saw that he was naked and had apparently rubbed his bolognese sauce all over himself. I was quite perplexed because he loves bolognese sauce and would tend to eat it. I walked over to see what was going on. As I got closer, the smell hit me, and I saw his empty plate. He had eaten his food, done a poo and was rubbing it all over his body. There were great swirl marks on his legs, buttocks, and torso. When I got within range and he saw me he started flapping his poo-covered hands – poo flew everywhere – over the walls, curtains, carpet, and me. I put him in the shower while I cleaned the dining room. By the time I had finished, he had done another one and had coated the shower all around as far up as he could reach. Incidents like this were basically daily occurrences, although usually he put poo on his trains rather than on himself. Although the poo skating rink does stand out as another incident of note.

    My point is that that not all autistic kids are easy to live with. And I say this as an autistic parent – dare I say that living with an autistic kid is a wee bit more exasperating when you would rather be spending quality time with yourself and a rocking chair, than chasing the little hellraiser.

  30. Chris November 1, 2011 at 08:21 #

    Christian G.:

    But I’m not buying “better dead than autistic” unless Martin Luther said it. 🙂

    But you brought up his “solution.” How do we know that you are also not sympathetic to the “better dead than autistic mentality”?

    By the way, my son became disabled due to a now vaccine preventable disease. Diseases like rubella, mumps, measles, Hib and others caused “normal” children to become what was then called the “mentally retarded.” These were the kids who ended up in institutions like Willowbrook.

    There was an upsurge of applicants to Willobrook in the early 1960s, mostly from children affected by Congenital Rubella Syndrome, a known cause of autism. Then they were subjected to several vaccine trials that are now not allowed due to strengthened ethical codes (mostly because of what happened at Willobrook).

    Please explain why you are defending a woman who killed her own child. Especially after saying:

    These parents are alone, many literally, husbands long ago vanished, grandparents suggesting institutional care or exorcism as a way of treatment, schools unprepared, government touting studies pointing to genetics rather than recognizing eye witness accounts of what the parent relates to and believes.

    Wait, what? Dr. McCarron was working in another city and her husband was dealing with the day to day issues of her daughter. He did not vanish, he was the one actually dealing with his daughter’s education.

    And as far as grandparents, Katie’s grandfather was the one who wrote this letter.

    Who are you and why do you think that this little girl’s murder can be explained away?

  31. clubduvet November 1, 2011 at 10:59 #

    McD your absolutely right, the poo smearing, non verbal hellraising, coupled with trying to run a family plus hold a job and hold life together in general, really can take you to an edge.

    However for most of us (and I’m sure you will agree) have an unquestionable love for the little blighter, to always prevent us stepping off.

    Sadly there are always going to be the few that don’t.

  32. Christian G. November 1, 2011 at 12:00 #

    “Katie’s grandfather was the one who wrote this letter.”

    The same one that said this?

    “This was not a murder about autism.”

    Who am I? I’m someone that knows more about this family than you do, that I can assure you. And I do not support Karen, defend her, nor do I wish her any peace. I hope she is in horrible agony, will live a long life behind bars and dies the day/the minute before she is to be released and never tastes freedom again, and then rots in hell.

  33. stanley seigler November 1, 2011 at 14:58 #

    LBRB,

    have submitted several repeat posts to this thread over the last week. none have been posted. pls advise if you would rather i not post, vice just not posting my messages.

    not a problem…just would like to move on. if message acceptable, post latest and delete others.

    thanks,

    stanley seigler

  34. Shanna November 1, 2011 at 16:13 #

    McD,

    I certainly do not think raising an autistic child is easy. A lot of things that are rewarding are also challenging. My son has had his share of poo incidents, one as recent as a few months ago. I believe he spent his entire year 4 in overalls. My husband is in school for the next 27 months in another state. So I am doing it alone. It’s hard work and my son isn’t high functioning. At the end of the day, the joys far exceed the tribulations.

    “It is my impression that these parents wanting to rid their child of a disorder that, at best, plagues the child’s social ability to such a degree that they have basically no societal common “value” other than as an economic stimulus for healthcare industry, special-ed teachers and for those seeking cheap labor. What parent wouldn’t want a change? Oh that’s right, the ones with better things to do than try to encourage their sons and daughters to be healthy and independent in life. Surely it wouldn’t be someone like you or your parents.”

    I am sorry that you feel my son is a tax burden on you. I can assure you, he has more “value” than you assign to him or any other person with autism. The idea that there are parents out there who don’t help their children because they have better things to do just because they do not choose to follow some quack anti-vaccine coarse of therapy is ridiculous. Encouraging your children to be healthy and independent and accepting their disability are not mutually exclusive. My son has had speech, OT, Physical therapy, and ABA since 15 months. They don’t all recover. It’s not a disease with some miraculous cure. I do not sit around and rejoice about the fact that my son can not talk. No more so then I would rejoice if he were blind. I accept that he has a disability and therefore readjust my preconceived expectations on what makes a happy life or societal “value”. It’s called being a parent.

  35. Kassiane November 1, 2011 at 20:16 #

    Wakefield took blood AT A BIRTHDAY PARTY and falsified a whole study. That isn’t love. That was greed.

    I knew a lot of the people Karen McCarron knew. I know for a *fact* that some of them had the “better dead than autistic” mentality. I could only handle one of their meetings–and I can handle autism conferences, so that indicates a whole lot of loathing & self pity all condensed in one room.

    And wherever you got the “short life expectancy” thing, um, they’re wrong. Autism isn’t fatal, though some autism parents sure are.

  36. Sullivan November 1, 2011 at 20:16 #

    All,

    I am pretty sure I know who “Christian G.” is. If I am correct, he won’t be surprised (and it won’t be new to him) that his comments will be screened from here on out.

  37. stanley seigler November 2, 2011 at 21:48 #

    REPEAT

    LBRB,

    have submitted several repeat posts to this thread over the last week. none have been posted. pls advise if you would rather i not post, vice just not posting my messages.

    not a problem…just would like to move on. if message acceptable, post latest and delete others.

    thanks,

    stanley seigler

    • Sullivan November 2, 2011 at 21:57 #

      stanley seigler,

      last time you mentioned having comments which were not appearing, I went through the spam filter and approved one of them. I posted the last one. Was this not sufficient?

  38. stanley seigler November 3, 2011 at 01:19 #

    getting old…it was/is sufficient…found it…THANKS

    stanley seigler

  39. Patricia March 2, 2015 at 17:45 #

    Reblogged this on Spectrum Perspectives.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Polly Tommey won’t judge parents who murder their disabled children. That’s part of the problem | Left Brain Right Brain - July 13, 2016

    […] by one of the people she most loved. Katie, who should be a beautiful young teenager today. Katie, whose mother felt that vaccinating her child made her responsible for Katie’s autism. Yes, the vaccination myth you, Polly Tommey, promote played into Katie’s murder. While […]

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