Autism Blog - After Jenny and Oprah « Left Brain/Right Brain

23 Sep 2007

Author: Kev
Comments: 192

After Jenny and Oprah

And so, this was the week that the anti-vaccine/autism hypothesis got its first real airing in a public arena. Jenny McCarthy went on US TV and told her audience that her son was her science (quite possibly the silliest thing on the show since Tom Cruise’s couch/brain malfunction).

I’m going to level with you here. I don’t really care too much about Jenny McCarthy spouting on about the evils of vaccines. She’s not the first and she won’t be the last. Despite the raptures the anti-vaccination people are having over her appearance she wasn’t on Oprah because of her vaccine ideas.

This is what bothers me: she was on Oprah because she was famous. It scares the shit out of me that we can only apparently have a conversation about something after a celeb has let the light of their countenance shine down upon it.

The UK is just as ridiculous about this whole thing as the US. Its got to a stage whereby the subject under discussion doesn’t even seem to really matter to Joe Public – what seems to matter is that there’s a famous face pontificating on a subject that, in all honesty, they’ve probably only recently begun to get a firm grasp on themselves.

To put it another way, the Oprah show wasn’t about autism. It was about Jenny McCarthy. It was to sell copies of her book. Her appearance on People magazine is to increase book sales. Her upcoming appearance on Larry King is to increase book sales. None of it is about autism . None of this will help the autism community. Even that subsection of the autism community who are anti-vaccine are kidding themselves if they think that after the dust settles on Jenny McCarthy’s book she will be around to lead them in their fight. Until its time for the sequel of course.

Is the autism community really so shallow that we are going into raptures because a celeb is speaking about a subject that vast majority of us could speak much more accurately and eloquently about? It seems some of us are.

In the meantime, whilst Jenny McCarthy is being lucratively controversial on Oprah, the vast majority of autistic kids are still not getting the right kind of educational placement. Whilst Jenny McCarthy’s Media Clean Up Crew are attempting hoover away every mention of her Indigo Children beliefs from the web lest they affect book sales, autistic adults are still struggling to get into appropriate work and living accommodations.

I would urge autism parents to spend the ten quid they were going to spend on Jenny McCarthy’s book on something that might actually help autistic people instead of helping line the pockets of Jenny McCarthy.

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Comments

192 Responses to “After Jenny and Oprah”

Elissa
September 23rd, 2007
10:56:52

Fair enough!

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bullet
September 23rd, 2007
11:12:09

Completely agree.

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Matt
September 23rd, 2007
13:33:40

When the dust settles from this it will be interesting to see what chabges—if anything.

The people who have been working hard to get autism research funding are probably wondering if the future looks something like this:

“Senator, we propose a (really lot of) Dollars for the ‘we are still combating autism act’”

“Well, I was talking to Jenny and it looks like Evan is your science”.

Matt

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Erica
September 23rd, 2007
14:29:35

So true Kev so true I read the People article when you have an autistic kid everyone you know starts dropping off copies of this stuff. I have two copies now. Jenny admits in her article that her last book was promoted because she had to make money to pay for Evan’s in home therapy that was costing $2,250 a week or $75 an hour or 100k per year however you slice it. i don’t know very many people who can shell out 100k each year for top notch therapy do you? while she is complaining about how celebritiesd have money woes too (yes she did in her article) and how having an autistic child kicked her ass so she won’t be having anymore children (also said that). The rest of us know what real money woes feel like, NEVER BEING ABLE TO AFFORD NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE TRY 100K PER YEAR IN HOME THERAPY. ya know, autism didn’t kick my ass either. we have other kids who happen to be NT. R is part of the family, most of the therapy we provide is real life, a real childhood. We don’t shelter R from going places and experiencing the same things as other children. R is part of the family and being autistic is just part of the package of who R is. i have gotten compliments from school professionals on how R transitions well and R has imagination and R has big vocabulary. you know the NT’s kick my ass too.

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Kelly S
September 23rd, 2007
14:36:07

Well said and I couldn’t agree with you more. What really bothers me about all this is the way some people are becoming so enthralled with her and her “message” when, quite frankly, she really doesn’t have much of a message in the first place.

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Leanne
September 23rd, 2007
15:59:38

I had to shut Oprah off before they got halfway through (the comment about how parents insist the kids are “kids with autism” and in no instances should be called “autistic kids” drove me over the edge.)

The next day my dentist had it showing in his waiting room…worse than the dental work itself.

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wskrz
September 23rd, 2007
16:55:17

Well said, Kev. Excellent post.

As I’m finding out on my blog right now with my Jenny McCarthy post, there is a pretty split camp. There are those that totally agree that she’s just out the trying to make money on her book. And there are those out there that are having their “causes” boosted by this publicity and will probably soon have their pocketbooks boosted too.

I never knew that a diet would be so controversial and I’m amazed at the number of people who are just so fanatical about it, that they think you’re Satan if you don’t try it on your kid. And of course, there’s the “Well, Jenny’s doing it….”

It’s almost borderline cultish. Pretty scary.

In my opinion, Jenny and Oprah have just made my job a hell of a lot more difficult. Not only do I have people literally sitting on my blog waiting to argue with me and everyone else, but I have to deal with questions from everyone that asks, “Did you just see Oprah!? Is it true that not vaccinating your kids and feeding them this diet will cure or keep them from getting autism?!!”

Like I’ve got time to deal with that.

Amen, Erica. Amen. I guess we should start getting our act in gear and start writing our books to pay for our kids’ therapy too, huh? ;-)

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Trusted.MD Network
September 23rd, 2007
18:38:50

The celebritization of “expertise”...

Estee Klar used that phrase in responding to Kev Leitch’s posts on the spectacle of Jenny McCarthy, on Oprah. Kev expressed a similar point:This is what bothers me: she was on Oprah because she was famous. It scares the sh1t*......

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Disgusted
September 24th, 2007
04:53:57

I’d be all for the “celebritization of expertise”. It’s the “implied expertise of celebrities” that gets me.

Yeah, she used Google. Has she ever seen the link for scholar.google.com or just the ads for “treatements”?

Many people think that an Autism conference is a place where people who sell treatments present “studies” those same treatments.

Would you like some GFCF fries with your McResearch?

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Left Brain/Right Brain
September 24th, 2007
05:41:37

[...] After Jenny and Oprah » (9) Disgusted, Trusted.MD Network, wskrz, Leanne, Kelly S, Erica [...] [...]

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Min
September 24th, 2007
20:47:41

Do any of you have children with Autism? Forget that she’s a celebrity. If something worked for you, wouldn’t you want everyone to know? You’re very cold hearted to say that she’s only doing this for the money. Shame on you. What if this was a no name person stating the same facts? Would you disregard that too? Would you still be writing the same things? Her celebrity can only bring more attention to what has been neglected for so many years. 1 in 150 children! Someone needs to start listening.

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Kev
September 24th, 2007
21:00:47

We all have kids with autism, yes. What facts is she stating? Did you even read my post?

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Kristina
September 24th, 2007
21:39:30

It is the “same old same old” that McCarthy has been proclaiming about on Oprah etc.——if one has followed DAN! for the past decade (prior to McCarthy’s son’s birth), one can say that she has not contributed anything new to the discussion.

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makes an autism mom proud
September 24th, 2007
21:47:09

http://imagecache2.allposters......osters.jpg

http://parenting.ivillage.com/.....s9,00.html

‘It’s a rare parenting book that describes labor as “blowing out your vagina” and condones popping in Teletubbies when you’re hungover. But that’s Jenny McCarthy for you.”

...

“What’s funny about being a mom?
Everything! Your clothes change, your vanity changes, your conversation (you’re discussing Barney instead of Oprah’s latest hairdo) changes. And what kids say is so honest. Right now, my son is obsessed with boobies. Whenever a little girl walks by, he wants to lift up her shirt. I say, “That’s my boy!””

http://parenting.ivillage.com/.....-4,00.html
No mention of autism or seizures or Diflucan

“Any traits of yours you hope he inherits?
Definitely my sense of humor. When guys have a sense of humor, it can get them laid. At three years old, though, he can wait a while for that.’

“What about the future? More kids, more books?
Not sure about more kids, definitely more books. We’ll do a Dating Laughs, a Puberty Laughs, a My Husband’s Dead, Now What Do I Do? Laughs. And when Oprah’s tired, I’m going to slip into her chair and take over.”

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Kelly S
September 24th, 2007
21:56:56

Min:

I have two autistic children. Your point?

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Uncle Dave
September 24th, 2007
22:13:20

I agree with Mr. Kevin right down to his puncuation.
Moral of this story?
Get a job that keeps you to busy to watch daytime moronic splooosh like Oprah.

Change the channel, start watching more professional wrestling (at least you know its supposed to be obnoxious entertainment) and spend your money on getting good diagnostic evaluation of your child.

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Jenny McCarthy and autism quackery « Action For Autism
September 24th, 2007
23:24:04

[...] After Jenny and Oprah (LB/RB) [...]

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Uncle Dave
September 24th, 2007
23:51:20

Good Point Kevin.

I do not have autistic children but in my wife’s profession as a special Ed teacher she has seen more than most people viewing this blog have likely ever seen.

Point?

If you want valuable information about anything, especially brain or developmental disorders, try to tune out as much raving (as examplified by celeb’s) and television as possible and seek professional advice from Special Education professionals, your local universities and other parents who have found or seem to have found teachers and other professionals that have made an impact on their child’s developmental life.
Too much energy is wasted on what caused the accident and not enough concern seems to be directed at care after the accident(metaphorically speaking).
Yes a truck pulled out in front of your life, but now it is time to deal with advancing the child’s developmental issues so that they can hopefully live a more productive life than they would have when too much time is spent trying to assign cause and most of all blame.

No one really seems to be very concerned with writing books on productively dealing with Autism – finding good edcuational help etc etc.
What the hell good does Jenny MaCarthy or any other instant pudding drink the Kool-aid priestess do by saying she BELIEVES she knows what causes autism when she has a child that already has autism???????
Start plugging more books about education and development because I got news for everybody; Even if they find a smoking gun, it likely won’t do a lot for a child who already has autism.
Sorry I think I started spitting on the laptop there for a minute :(

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jaytraci
September 25th, 2007
02:06:44

celebrity or not she is a mom and have some respect, i dont care what she does if she brings some new research to this 1 in 150 then i thank her for it,i am sure that she did help alot of people going through this that might not have the means to get information,and anyone who thinks that vaccines do not play a part in this is just not paying attention to what is going on for years, if you dont agree with what she says then fine, but to put her down for it is just childish, and if you do not deal with this as part of your life then you shouldnt comment on it to begin with….............

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Sullivan
September 25th, 2007
02:21:05

jaytraci:

it is not putting her down to point out that she is sending people down what could be a dangerous path. At best, she is sending a lot of people down a very fruitless path.

Convincing people to skip vaccinations is something to be taken very seriously. Very.

That isn’t helping, it is hurting.

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Sarah's Mom
September 25th, 2007
03:43:33

First, I will begin by saying how greatful I am to Kev and the other bloggers for creating and contributing to this site- it truly has helped clarify the whole vaccine/mercury debate for me, and given me the ammo I need to stand up to other mothers of kids in my daughter’s school, who accuse me of being a horrible parent – all because I refuse to take my child to DAN! doctors or try biomed. One of the mothers who is the biggest proponents of biomed actually chelated her son into kindey failure, but fortunately he didn’t die.
That said, I just read something interesting about JM- or more interestingly, about her current boyfriend, the “autism whisperer”, Jim Carrey. It seems that as of December 2006 he was reported to have been taking introductory classes to Scientology. He also attended Tom Cruises wedding- whether he’s become a full-fledged Scientologist I don’t know, but given that JM enthusiastic promoter of DAN! in her book, thats quite a coincidence, isn’t it?

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HN
September 25th, 2007
03:49:16

jaytraci said “anyone who thinks that vaccines do not play a part in this is just not paying attention to what is going on for years,”

Oh, do you have some actual convincing evidence? From what I have seen it was a bunch of research bought and paid for by some personal injury lawyers that was shown to be using false data (Wakefield), or some other guys who are professional experts and are now selling their own cure that is a chemical castrator (Geiers).

How does it help others to make their children more vulnerable to diseases like measles and tetanus? How does it help others to make them spend money that is in short supply on worthless therapies?

Also, remember… my opinions are just as valid as McCarthy’s because I am also a mom!

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makes an autism mom proud
September 25th, 2007
04:07:26

What I find very encouraging is that when I did my “google research” and googled Jenny McCarthy, The first bunch were all about her movies or porn, etc, and the last one on the first page was Kev’s blog.
“Jenny McCarthy autism” has Kev at the top of the results and the hub blogs and other skeptical blogs are outnumbering the pro-ex-Indigomom websites by two or three to one.

http://www.snarkygossip.com/20.....th-autism/
They say the hub bloggers are mean!

If you click on the GR ad doesn’t it cost them some money?

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amomamom
September 25th, 2007
04:22:17

There’s a mostly great comment on celebrity baby blog from a genetics researcher at UCLA
http://www.celebrity-babies.co.....arthy.html

It’s a long comment, heres’ the last part.

“3) Finally, a comment on “Indigo Children”. I can’t claim to be an expert on them, but then no one else can either. I will say that as an expert in genetics, though, ANY statements that Indigo’s are a new wave in human evolution are pure fantasy. There is simply zero—thats 0.000—-evidence that these children are any genetically different than similar such children who were being born 100 or 1000 years ago. This is just stuff someone pulled out of thin air (likely inside their head).... You don’t need Indigo children crap to believe that every child is unique and valuable, and has things that make them special in positive ways, even though others may simply label them disabled. There is no need to proclaim them to be from a
spiritual super-race to gain respect for them—-better to just promote the idea that all people have basic human dignity that should be respected and that all people have qualities that should be cherished, and we need to affirm this especially for those impacted by disabilities.”

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Uncle Dave
September 25th, 2007
04:28:45

I have a great deal of respect for mothers as well as some fathers of autistic children that continue to do a remarkable job raising thier children in the most difficult of circumstances (the unknown condition).

Like Kev said, “did you even read my post?” This isn’t about Ms. McCarthy, respect for mothers, or even me; this is about getting to the bottom of a developmental disorder.

Sorry, no disrespect toward Ms. McCarthy or Ms. Winfrey but the Oprah show is not what I would consider to be an objective forum for the advancement of understanding in developmental disorders.

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
05:53:55

“Also, remember… my opinions are just as valid as McCarthy’s because I am also a mom!”

Any mother of an autistic child (heck any person) starts out with an opinion more valid than Jenny McCarthy’s. When one presents “opinions” that are contradicted by facts, one’s “opinions” are not valid. So, everyone starts out one step ahead of Jenny before they open their mouths.

Of course, many will take a few steps backwards with only a few words.

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Sharon
September 25th, 2007
15:50:22

Ms. McCarthy was also on “The View” on 9/25 – I think it is interesting that as a celebrity there was no mention of a portion of the proceeds of the book going to “xyz autism charity” – seems like that would be the next step.

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natalie
September 25th, 2007
16:14:52

Just wanted to mention diet is very important and I don’t understand why someone would think it’s funny that Jenny would mention that after all you are what you eat and with all the crap we consume today it’s no wonder we’re all sick or dropping dead. Diet changes everything.

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Gina
September 25th, 2007
16:34:26

The bottom line is educate yourself. There is a lot of people in the world with varying opinions. Even in the medical community you will find different opinions. You have to find out as much information you can from someone you trust and go with it. Yes vaccines are needed! Are they harmful. Maybe they are to some children. I do believe in the diet!! I would like to try it out just to see if there is a change in my 7 yr. old. I will still vaccinate. Jenny Mcarthy said she would like to see a test to see if babies can handle the vaccines. Sounds good to me. Maybe some babies systems aren’t developed enough at the time of birth.

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Gonzo
September 25th, 2007
16:43:32

Jenny Mcarthy said she would like to see a test to see if babies can handle the vaccines.

How exactly is that test going to be accomplished? Right on babies themselves? Lab testing on rats and mice first? Oh my god, someone think of the rodents!

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Aspiemom
September 25th, 2007
17:03:46

What an awesome forum! So glad I found this, especially after watching Jenny McCarthy on Oprah. A friend dropped off her book the next day and I’m trying to read it without judgment so I can give my best take on it. Anyway, I felt the Oprah show was irresponsible and that McCarthy contradicted herself several times. She claimed that vaccines caused the autism in her son, while at the same time admitted to missing the “clues” from the very beginning. In her book, she characterizes the mothers who aren’t into the “alternative” therapies as glum and gloomy. Maybe compared to moms who are like her (borderline nuts), we who are rational come off that way. I just hope Oprah takes a responsible tact by inviting on guests who are rational and scientific in order to provide some fairness to this lopsided portrayal of autism therapies. And to the mom who had to turn off Oprah when her guest came to the semantic BS about “children with autism” versus “autistic children” I say, right on! My kid is an autistic child and I’m okay with that!

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walkingblindfolded
September 25th, 2007
17:12:20

I just finished reading Jennys book and her struggle to help her kid is inspiring. And her going on Oprah is yes to promote the book and yes to make money its her JOB but also to in some way to educate people about autism. Think about it not many people know anything about autism, and if a celebrity can bring awareness to this cause by writing a book and bringing it to the publics attention why is everyone complaining. People are going on about how she pays $100000 for the best treatment, well you know what good for her wouldnt you do the same thing if you could. I know only to well the struggles with the cost of IBI,ABA speech,OT therapists . YOu guys are only saying these things because she is a celebrity, forgetting that she did it all by herself she researched everything, tried everything, paid for everything ,would do anything. Stop worrying about how jenny pays for her sons treatment and focus on your own kids.

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HN
September 25th, 2007
17:15:30

Matt said “Any mother of an autistic child (heck any person) starts out with an opinion more valid than Jenny McCarthy’s. When one presents “opinions” that are contradicted by facts, one’s “opinions” are not valid. So, everyone starts out one step ahead of Jenny before they open their mouths.”

Of course, I have actually looked at the literature and “facts”. I have read several books on neurology, special ed. issues and vaccines. These include William Calvin’s Conversations with Neil’s Brain, Hager-Cohen’s Train Go Sorry, Spradley’s Dear Like ME, almost all of Oliver Sacks’ books, a couple of Temple Grandin’s books, Offit’s The Cutter Incident and Vaccinated, Allen’s Vaccine, Kurcinka’s Raising Your Spirited Child (which described younger son perfectly) and several others (I just got This is Your Brain on Music by Daniel Levitin from the library). I have participated in online discussions for over ten years (my son who had seizures, developmental problems and is presently down with a migraine is 19 years old)...

... and most importantly I know that the links in the corner of the Google search page are ADVERTISEMENTS!

And who in their right mind believes ads only contain facts?

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Erica
September 25th, 2007
17:40:42

Jenny M’s kid still looks on the spectrum to me. On the view she said he is recovered. i have to stop following this melodrama

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Joseph
September 25th, 2007
17:45:32

“Recovered” often means “recovering”. Developing often means “recovering”. The logic is that if a kid has progressed in their skills to an extent, they just need to keep progressing to become neurotypical.

If a child doesn’t speak and then speaks, that’s often called “recovery” as well. This means that at least 50% of non-verbal autistics eventually recover.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
17:59:56

If something works why wouldnt you want to shout it from the roof top?

“too much energy is spent on the cause” stated by Uncle Dave –
That is the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever heard/read.

Which Koolaid do you prefer we drink from: the medical fields that doesn’t even want to discuss openly the connection that many have witnessed over vaccinations and flu shots and that everything is fine or the “koolaid” of those who are in the trenches looking to fix things?

Jenny never said to do away with vaccinating children – she did say that the calendar should be looked at as to how many kids get at one time AND that “energy” should be spent on testing for possible genetics that may show a possible bad reaction to a vaccination.

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Joseph
September 25th, 2007
18:14:13

If something works why wouldnt you want to shout it from the roof top?

That’s not the problem obviously. Part of the problem is assuming something works based on testimonials and anecdotes most likely explained by coincidence and self-deception. More importantly, the problem is promoting said unproven treatments as if they were known to work, profiting from them, and potentially hurting children with them.

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jeremy
September 25th, 2007
18:18:53

i love how you all are going after this person who has a different idea on how to handle this disease when nothing else has helped her. all that i have read none of you that have anything to say dont disclaim her from actual experiences that you have had all you have to say is how she pisses you off because she has money and she uses it and even with her money it still isnt enough. instead of using her like she is herself and raising awareness of this disease and the expenses of it. all you can do is bitch and complain about how blonde she is or wealthy she is. open your eyes and your mind. now i dont agree with how she is saying her son is a success already only time will tell but nothing i have found that says that changing a childs diet to match her sons diet is detremental to a childs well being. like it or not which if you have a loved one with autism or any other disease where little hope can be found you should be happy that there is someone actively looking for something that works and not just taking what although well educated one train of thought or way of thinking. its little expirements like this that brought along many of the medical advances that we have today. so before you discredit ms. mccarthy even though you dont agree with her or her “expirement” you all should wait and see where it takes her son.

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Rose
September 25th, 2007
18:20:19

I agree with Tammy and several others who replied here. Jenny is a celebrity & yes is making money on her new book. However, her son is almost a mirror of what my son was. Sorry but I have to agree that vaccines did harm my son and I know several thousands of other moms who say the same thing, and I’m not talking about celebrity moms like Jenny, every day moms like you & me. We aren’t trying to “blame” our kids’ autism on something, we just want to have a safer vaccine schedule. We also know our kids aren’t just “born that way” nor is it 100% genetic. There are so many environmental issues involved. We also are paying for everything out of pocket, very very expensive but has it been worth it? It has & then some. Our son is also recovering. His speech has come so far with DAN & biomed & yes the diet was the first thing we tried & it was so amazing how much it helped. I would have to say to the naysayers on this board that unless you’ve walked in our shoes & have traveled down our path then you don’t know what we know. I’m not listening to the medical community’s research & scientific data, I have my very own little boy for proof! And so do so many others.

Also, to the person who posted all the books that you’ve read regarding vaccines, try these:
Evidence of Harm by David Kirby and
A Shot in the Dark and
What your doctor won’t tell you about vaccines.

The last 2 I’m not sure right off who the authors are.

Finally, we all have so much work to do with our kids. If we want to raise happy healthy kids, we need to get busy. And I think so many of us want to point fingers at DAN or this therapy or that, when in reality, if it works for your kid, great! That’s all we really want, right?

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shawni
September 25th, 2007
18:20:27

I think everyone should stop dogging her and focusing on her celebrity status and use what she is trying to say to benefit not only yourself or you child..but society as a whole. Obviously nobody is paying attention to “regular people” that have been dealing with this issue for years. Maybe it takes a famous person speaking out to get the ball rolling for something to get accomplished. As much as we hate to admit it…this is how our disfunctional society operates. But, bottom line is…she still has a child with autism. So I would expect a little more compassion from people in general…..especially the ones that have autistic children themselves.

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HN
September 25th, 2007
18:21:07

“If something works why wouldnt you want to shout it from the roof top?”

How do you know that “something” worked, versus what would happen with the development over time?

Tammie continues: “the medical fields that doesn’t even want to discuss openly the connection that many have witnessed over vaccinations and flu shots”

Uh, excuse me? Have you even checked http://www.pubmed.gov and put in “vaccine autism” or whatever in the search fields? It has been studied, and studied, and looked at… and yet, still there has been no real evidence that points to vaccines as a cause of autism or other developmental disabilities.

If you have some actual factual documented evidence that vaccines have been shown to cause such harm, please present it. Don’t just say it exists, but refuse to post what it is.

JM is pointing at the MMR vaccine. That particular vaccine has been in use in the United States since 1971. Where is the spike in disabilities in the USA starting in 1971? What studies show that is dangerous? Do those studies use more than a dozen children not supplied by the personal injury lawyer, done by a qualified team with a real pediatrics staff and have not used contaminated PCR tests? Come on… you say they exist… TELL US about them! Give us the author, title, journal, and title so we can go to the library and read them.

There has been plenty of evidence to show that the actually diseases cause disability and death. Take for instance the book I read by the Spradley brothers. It is called Deaf Like Me, and has to do with an epidemic of rubella in the early 1960s. Or how about why Roald Dahl dedicated his book The BFG to his oldest daughter who died from measles.

Did you know that there used to be schools just for kids who were deaf and/or blind? The major causes for those disabilities were actually measles, mumps and rubella. Are those schools as abundant as they used to be? For that you might read Leah Cohen Hager’s Train Go Sorry.

Do you think the low level of those diseases will stay if MMR is called the “autism shot”? Look at the UK, it has experienced a resurgence of mumps and rubella. Do you think the USA is immune to that happening? It is not… between 1989 and 1991 over 120 Americans died from measles, and just last summer at least four people became deaf from mumps.

Now I ask you again: What REAL evidence do have for vaccines being the cause of autism?

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HN
September 25th, 2007
18:31:40

Rose said: “Also, to the person who posted all the books that you’ve read regarding vaccines, try these:
Evidence of Harm by David Kirby and
A Shot in the Dark and
What your doctor won’t tell you about vaccines.”

I would question your taste in reading material.

First off, David Kirby was a journalist who was paid to write that book. It has been thoroughly discredited by several. Just check the archives of this blog. He is also the guy who claimed that autism would go down since thimerosal was removed. Has it? Or is he moving goal posts.

Neither author of Shot in the Dark have any expertise in the field, and Barbara Loe Fisher’s organization can best be called the “National Vaccine MISinformation Center”.

I would suggest you learn how to use PubMed and learn to use a critical eye to some of the books you have read.

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Julie
September 25th, 2007
18:33:09

scientists and neurologists will tell you that we still don’t know everything there is to know about auto-immune diseases. They think auto-immune diseases develop because of a “genetic predisposition” and that some environmental factor triggers an immune response that results in having the auto immune disease. My son was diagnosed with Autism at age 3 (even though I knew something was wrong at age 2). Intense diet and therapy worked. He is now 11 years old and mainstreamed into school. I would not say he was “cured”, but he has recovered. I did this 8-9 years ago and it worked. She just wants to share her story in the hopes that she can help someone else….

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Tiffany
September 25th, 2007
18:39:27

So because she is a celebrity she has nothing valid to say in this area? Believe it or not she is not he first or the last to find that autism can be reversed. She is also not the only one to see that vaccines play a large role in brain injuries.

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HN
September 25th, 2007
18:55:57

Tiffany said “So because she is a celebrity she has nothing valid to say in this area? ”

Uh, no… many of us are looking at what she says and finding many deficits in fact. Read the posting again. Take note of these statements:

“told her audience that her son was her science (quite possibly the silliest thing on the show since Tom Cruise’s couch/brain malfunction).”

and

“Her upcoming appearance on Larry King is to increase book sales. None of it is about autism . None of this will help the autism community.”

and

“Whilst Jenny McCarthy’s Media Clean Up Crew are attempting hoover away every mention of her Indigo Children beliefs from the web lest they affect book sales, autistic adults are still struggling to get into appropriate work and living accommodations.”

and finally…

“I would urge autism parents to spend the ten quid they were going to spend on Jenny McCarthy’s book on something that might actually help autistic people instead of helping line the pockets of Jenny McCarthy.”

What I do is give money to the charity that provided my son several years of intensive speech therapy for free:
http://www.scottishrite.org/wh.....ctory.html

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dawn
September 25th, 2007
18:57:25

As a result of the Oprah show airing, I am now researching thimerosal and its other possibly negative effects. I called a manufacturer and found out this chemical is a common preservative and is 50% ethel mercury which is POISONOUS! I hope Jenny reads this as I need to contact her to discuss my thoughts and ideas for research.

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
19:01:45

Tiffany:

So because she is a celebrity she has nothing valid to say in this area? Believe it or not she is not he first or the last to find that autism can be reversed. She is also not the only one to see that vaccines play a large role in brain injuries.

She is not a person who has shown any of this, though. She “believes”, but she does not know or

Using celebrity to tell what you believe is fine if you believe in an excercise regimine or something. If you believe in something that could cause people to suffer from preventable diseases, you should wait until you know.

You don’t yell “fire” in a crowded building. You don’t go on talkshows and say that vaccines are causing autism.

Check this blog—you will note that Bernard Rimland discussed that in some cases autism spontaneously reverses. It is well known to the regular readers here.

It isn’t the fact that some people’s symptoms lessen with time—even to the point of losing a diagnosis. The fact that it happens and that it happens over a long period of time makes it very ripe for the placebo effect.

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
19:08:09

Ah, “Dawn” wants us to chase the Thimerosal red herring.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
19:09:03

Okay so your dismissing what she says works for her child. If it works what he wasnt really diagnosised correctly?

My point on the medical field explaining the vaccines is in regard to the fact that docs have you sign your initials to a sheet when your baby comes in for a shot, gives you a few forms that may or may not explain what you are signing and no word about reactions that linger or show up AFTER a 2 week period that they admit they have studied – sorry that is not enough 2 way discussion – and again it is not a discussion to rule out vaccinations, not at all, the point is one side is so busy telling us what it ISNT that they completely disregard whats right in our face.

Coincidence is not an answer when the coincidence happens over and over and over again. This pertains to “just a coincendence that little johnny reacted to a shot and then changed” just like it pertains to “gee johnny got better when I changed his diet, or gave him a supplement his body was lacking”.

At some point the information has to be included as hey maybe this plays a role in the cause and hey maybe these changes are a way to help.

Making a broad general statement and dismissing it all because you are famous or because you are a mother deemed hysterical does no one any good.

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
19:10:16

scientists and neurologists will tell you that we still don’t know everything there is to know about auto-immune diseases

Scientists and neurologists will also tell you that researchers have put a lot of time into the vaccine/autism proposed link and found no connection.

That’s the difference between Scientists and Celebrities—one group actually does the work to find the facts. The other group sits on couches and sells books filled with their “beliefs”.

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Gonzo
September 25th, 2007
19:15:28

Aspiemom said:In her book, she characterizes the mothers who aren’t into the “alternative” therapies as glum and gloomy. Maybe compared to moms who are like her (borderline nuts), we who are rational come off that way.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love this! I’m glum and gloomy?! Really? That’s hilarious! I’d better run out and get myself and my kid some crystals right away!

Not only can she “cure” autism, she can cure depression too! It’s a miracle!

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
19:17:09

Okay so your dismissing what she says works for her child. If it works what he wasnt really diagnosised correctly?

Let’s run some numbers, shall we? Her kid is what, 5 now? He has been getting an intensive program for 2-3 year, right? Some of the comments out there have stated that she is paying $75/hour for a 40hour/week program. $75/hour is an accurate estimate of a therapist cost for the higher end in California. That is about $150,000/year. Figure $100,000 per year and 2.5 years to be conservative.

So, figure she has spent ~$250,000 on 1:1 therapies for her kid.

OK, I get it, the extra few bucks a week for rice milk over regular milk plus substititing GF bread and pasta…yeah, that balances well against 5200 hours of therapy at quarter of a million dollars.

Jenny has put her money on the table big time. She just isn’t putting her money where her mouth is.

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Gonzo
September 25th, 2007
19:26:05

Damn. I wish I had that kind of money. Good math there, Matt.

Here’s the next big question – are any of the proceeds of this book of hers actually going to autism research or support? I’m not seeing anything on her publishers’ website.

If not, then that’s all we need to know. And yes, you’d be completely correct, Matt. She doesn’t put her money where her mouth is.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
19:36:11

Chapter 13, jenny says “I hope you realize that this is NOT a book about autism. Its a book about faith….who never stopped looking for answers. Evan and I willhave our ups and downs and obstacles to face.

Page 200: paraphrasing here “vaccines are a highly controversial subject, and I am not trying to tell you how to treat your child.

Last page: THE AUTHOR WILL DONATE A PORTION OF HER PROCEEDS FROM THIS BOOK TO THE UCLA EARLY CHILDHOOD PARTIAL HOSPITALIZATION PROGRAM. THE FUNDS WILL HELP BUILD ADDITIONAL CLASSROOMS SO THAT MORE AUTISTIC CHILDREN CAN GET THE HELP THEY DESERVE.

This is directly word for word from the actual book.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
19:37:50

Gonzo “she doesn’t put her money where her mouth is”

Guess you spoke too soon.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
19:40:30

Only thing left to say is “lighten up” she’s not spouting her way is the only way and what worked for is gospel.

She’s aware of the heated debates, she’s aware of her fortunate ability to pay for things most can’t and she’s aware that much is still needed to be discussed and tested and learned.

No reason to bad mouth her because of that.

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Steve D
September 25th, 2007
19:45:31

To Tammie (and any other newcomers who may fall into the current McCarthy-inspired autism “knowledge-trap”)-
Please realize that since Jenny M’s son is doing well – and there is not one person who visits this site who would want to see it any other way – does not mean that a) recovery has happened or that b) anything she did such as diets that she thinks resulted in his presumed recovery actually did do anything.

Case in point – my son has followed virtually the same trajectory (speaking in generalities, as I do not know Jenny or her son) in terms of behaviors. Without any diet, without any other ‘biomedical interventions’.
Jenny is mistaken on several points which lead to her ill-founded beliefs: – That an autism diagnosis spells a lifetime of profound disability with no possibility of improvement (I can understand this, since it is pretty much what we parents are told at the time of Dx) – That a ‘treatment’ is necessary for improvement (In truth, the natural maturation that occurs between ages 3 and 6 can easily account for the changes seen in her son, though this certainly is not true for all kids.)

What the newcomers are perceving to be mean-spritedness or close-mindedness in their brief perusals of this site are actually responses to the predictable outcome of Jenny’s foolhardy proclamations about autism, which are directly opposed to prevailing scientific evidence, by people who have spent much time evaluating the available information.
Case in point are the comments being made here, which show a significant lack of knowledge of many aspects of these issues.
The point is this – do not believe everything Jenny M says! Do not believe everything bloggers say either! Take the time to do some research, apply critical thinking skills, and see what happens.

In the meantime, don’t experiment with any old ‘cure for autism’ that comes down the turnpike – none of them have been shown to work, many of them have been shown to NOT work, and some are very dangerous.

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amomamom
September 25th, 2007
19:47:33

As for proceeds. She’s going to need “work” to keep the Hollywood face going. She’s 35. 40 is ancient down there, especially if you’ve spent any time in a tanning booth.

Nice accounting, Matt. Why isn’t all that therapy getting the main focus? How is it that the meds for his seizures aren’t credited with helping him to develop? Maybe because you can’t bash vaccines by promoting Floortime.

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
19:56:26

“Gonzo “she doesn’t put her money where her mouth is”

Guess you spoke too soon.”

No, I didn’t. I was talking about how she gives credit to the biomed side of her approach but doesn’t play up the part she

When it comes to what she actually does for her kid, she is stressing 1:1 therapies. When it comes to the parts that she talks about in the interviews and the parts that the Biomed parents are hanging on, it’s diet and vaccines.

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
19:59:37

She’s aware of the heated debates, she’s aware of her fortunate ability to pay for things most can’t and she’s aware that much is still needed to be discussed and tested and learned.

No reason to bad mouth her because of that.

I don’t care that she can pay for these things. Not the point. The point is that she is paying a lot and her kid is spending a lot of time in therapies. But, the credit goes to GFCF?!?

And you wonder why I question her logic when it comes to vaccines? (well, besides the fact that I have probably put in a lot more time researching it than she has)

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Lisa
September 25th, 2007
20:01:24

I am thrilled to finally see somebody validating what I have been doing w/ my daughter for 4 years. The GF/CF diet has not cured my daughter but it has significantly helped w/ her stimming and behavior issues. I applaud Jenny! She’s right the pediatricians make you feel like an idiot when you tell them your doing the alterntive route. My experience has been traditional medicine wants to put our babies in chemically induced mental straight jackets. I went that route w/ my daughter and it was horrific. If it works for some children then thats great. It DID NOT work for my daughter. If you havent tried GF/CF, you should. It’s not easy but it is effective.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
20:02:49

Well we will agree to disagree on the point that any thing she tried did not actually help to create the results she wants.

And to the point about vaccines – my belief is that there is a combination between an issue with the shot and the person receiving it and if we could do something, some sort of testing prior to the shots that could sort of give an alls clear might help.

Let me first say I do not have a child with autism. I do however, or did, have a brother who in the mid 70’s received a vaccine as a toddler, and a 2 days later had a seizure – the doctors told my mother it was pneumonia, my mother said no it isn’t. No autism in my brother however, other issues did come of it.

Just so you know where Im coming from and would never ever try to speak for parents who are concerned about autism but this dismissing things and calling them coincendence or that it would have happened anyway sits about as well as reports that mothers are looking for blame or are hysterical.

So are you saying autism clears up on its own? Often? How come the media never reports that?

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brook trout
September 25th, 2007
20:06:23

I want to second Steve D. I was going to post something similar to what he wrote, but he’s said what I intended to say much better than I could, so I’ll just say that I agree with his post.

I have twin 5.0 year old girls who, at 2-3 would have been considered severely autistic but are now sitting in a mainstream public kindergarten with minimal supports. They are doing as well as any of the ‘recovered or recovering’ kids from the many autism cure sites on the internet and have developmental histories similar to many of the anecdotes of recovery.

This is not intended to defame Jenny M. or biomedical interventions – I haven’t much knowledge of either – but it is important to realize that autistic kids progress on their own and most do gain language and skills and can even mature to the point that most folks would no longer view them as disabled.

If I had been subjecting my children to “treatments” for the past two and a half years, I would probably also believe that whatever treatment I had been giving to them was actually affecting their development positively, too.

I’m happy that her child is progressing, but I agree that it is wrong to credit her treatments and therapies (and by proxy, herself) with his development because these sorts of anecdotes are used as fuel to lure parents into treatments that have not been proven safe and effective.

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brook trout
September 25th, 2007
20:15:15

Tammi,

Autism doesn’t “clear up” on its own, but most autistic kids do progress and gain language and skills with maturity, and some progress to the point that the symptoms that led to their diagnosis have faded to the extent that they would no longer be considered autistic.

There’s a few studies on outcome that I’m aware of (pubmed is down for maintainence right now and I’m at work, but you could find some of them if you hunted around) and that most autistic kids develop and “improve” with maturity is well known in science, though it doesn’t seem to get much play amongst those who promote autismt treatments.

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Rose
September 25th, 2007
20:33:54

To Steve who thinks the newcomers are falling into the “Jenny McCarthy trap”. We are only saying what we’ve believed for years! And now Jenny is validating that. It is too bad that it takes someone of a celebrity status to confirm what we’ve been saying for so many years. I don’t know how people can say chelation, DAN, biomed treatments are harmful. They have only helped my son so very much. For those of you (Steve, Matt, others) who don’t, have you had your kids’ labs done? Have you collected their hair samples, urine, fecals to see what sorts of toxic metals are in their little bodies? We did this & found that our son’s porphyrins & copoporphyrins were so high, it was unreal. He was also hospitalized for unexplained diahrrea & vomiting. The “real” MD’s said he had a bad case of the flu (after 4 weeks) and sent us home, where he continued vomiting/diahrrea around the clock. Tell me what you would do to watch your son deteriorate before your eyes & have the drs. tell you nothing is wrong. The ped. gastronologist even told me not to do the GF/CF diet as it wouldnt help. I took him home & started the diet & w/in a few days he was no longer vomiting or having diahrrea & was back to playing. Why did he begin vomiting & having diahrrea in the first place? Because his gut was so leaky from the gluten & casein in his body that he could no longer tolerate these proteins. The poor boy was literally getting “poisoned” from his food. Prior to the diet he definately was addicted to milk, he would drink about 1 gal in 2 days. He also was very “stoned” in that he seemed drunk & appeared like a drug addict, high on drugs. On the diet his speech increased from 19 mos. to 26 mos. w/in 4 weeks & he was also in an ABA program at that same time, which wasnt helping him at all. How can they learn when they don’t feel good, they’re tummies hurt & they can’t tell us what’s wrong? Think about this, it just makes sense! Lab tests don’t lie and my son is getting mercury & lead out by doing chelation. I didn’t want to believe people like me before I tried DAN, simply because it sounded overwhelming & I didnt want to do it. It helped him so much that I, like Jenny, want the whole world to know about it!

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Joseph
September 25th, 2007
20:34:00

like it or not which if you have a loved one with autism or any other disease where little hope can be found you should be happy that there is someone actively looking for something that works and not just taking what although well educated one train of thought or way of thinking.

What’s the factual basis of there being “little hope”? For that matter, what’s the factual basis demonstrating autism is a disease?

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Joseph
September 25th, 2007
20:51:43

If it works what he wasnt really diagnosised correctly?

No, I don’t believe you understand. An autistic child can make all kinds of progress (in fact, all do one way or another) just like a normal child can make all kinds of developmental progress. This in itself does not prove his diet or vitamins he was taking or whatever “work”.

The only way to really prove something “works” is to do a double-blind placebo-controlled trial. This is especially true in autism, precisely because the kids “improve” on their own.

Check out the histories of some of the first autistics recognized by Kanner, which I write about here:

http://autismnaturalvariation......guess.html

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
20:53:42

“To Steve who thinks the newcomers are falling into the “Jenny McCarthy trap”. We are only saying what we’ve believed for years! And now Jenny is validating that. It is too bad that it takes someone of a celebrity status to confirm what we’ve been saying for so many years.”

Rose, reread your own statement.

She confirmed what you have known? How? Did she add any new information?

I don’t need or want celebrity validation. I want real research into real issues concerning autism.

I also want to avoid vaccine preventable diseases…

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Matt
September 25th, 2007
20:59:15

Have you collected their hair samples, urine, fecals to see what sorts of toxic metals are in their little bodies? We did this & found that our son’s porphyrins & copoporphyrins were so high, it was unreal.

Take a search through this and other blogs on the Autism Hub. Take a look at how these tests are, quite often, wrong.

It has been pounded into the ground so often that there is little value in going over it again.

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Joseph
September 25th, 2007
21:04:29

copoporphyrins were so high

Was that ratio to creatinine? I take it mercury and lead levels in blodd were normal, since you didn’t mention it.

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Steve D
September 25th, 2007
21:23:30

Rose – It consistently amazes me that people are so derogatory in their analysis of mainstream medical practitioners (such as your description of your son’s doctors) but place blind trust in nameless lab techs they will never meet. There are significant reasons to doubt the validity of the test results you are referring to, particularly if they were completed at Doctor’s Data or Great Plains Laboratories. Comparing provoked (via chelation challenge tests) to unprovoked in the results is the most significant problem.
And for some great analysis of porphyrins, search the archives of this blog. Let me know what you think.
By the way, I absolutely acknowledge that a GFCF diet can reduce discomfort in people – and that GFCF is not an autism-specific issue. Futhermore, I believe that, in cases where GFCF is successful in decreasing discomfort in an autistic child, that child is more likely to respond in a more positive way to their environment, be it verbal communication or sensory regulation or whatever, as a result of improved comfort. But from there to “I rescued my child from autism by switching him to an elimination diet” is a huge leap. The GFCF diet is not a cure for anything other than GI discomfort.
It may surprise you to know that real scientists have put the GFCF theory to the test as a treatment for autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/si.....stractPlus

The authors state that this a preliminary finding only, but their study concludes that “...Group data indicated no statistically significant findings even though several parents reported improvement in their children.”

No one here wants to stop looking for ways to support and improve the lives of autistic people. To imply so only indicates that you have not taken the time to understand the discussions that take place here.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
21:34:50

“I also want to avoid vaccine preventable diseases…”

No argument here. And I don’t think anyone is saying at least here on this board to do away with them.

But because something does more good than harm doesn’t mean you sit back and close your eyes to improving on something. It is not an argument for staying the same course.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
21:41:18

“No one here wants to stop looking for ways to support and improve the lives of autistic people. To imply so only indicates that you have not taken the time to understand the discussions that take place here.”

Okay thats what you say – but instead many earlier posts went right for the throat that what JM is doing is only making things worse and that she’s just some hysterical rich nut.

And the implication is that those who felt she was right in speaking what worked for her were just as crazy.

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HN
September 25th, 2007
21:46:59

Tammie said “But because something does more good than harm doesn’t mean you sit back and close your eyes to improving on something. It is not an argument for staying the same course.”

What does more harm than good?

Do you mean bad news reporting or vaccines?

If you mean vaccines, could you back that up with some kind of evidence? I know I asked you before, but you seem to be unable to answer that question.

Here, I’ll try it another way: What vaccine in the present pediatric schedule is more dangerous than tha actual disease? Be sure to include all relevant documents (these would include stuff like papers from reliable journals… for instance MMR Vaccination and Pervasive Developmental Disorders: A Case-Control Study
Authors: Smeeth L, Cook C, Fombonne E, Heavey L, Rodrigues LC, Smith PG, Hall AJ
Source: Lancet, September 11, 2004, Vol. 364(9438):963-9).

So if you say that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than mumps, present the documentation. Something that would counter this:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/previe.....d518a1.htm … which has in it “However, complications have included 27 reports of orchitis, 11 meningitis, four encephalitis, four deafness, and one each of oophoritis, mastitis, pancreatitis, and unspecified complications. A total of 25 hospitalizations were reported, but insufficient data were provided to determine whether mumps caused all the hospitalizations.”

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
22:16:44

hn sorry I missed that part of your earlier post on backing up issues on vaccines.

I am certain that anything I put down will be quickly shot down.

But here is what I do know, there is no other reason to have to initial a form prior to giving vaccines (which the did not always do) than to save the medical fields butt – I can hear you yelling :o) the so called list of what you can expect after receiving the shot only goes so far.

There are too many of the same stories of kids receiving shots and soon after having a seizure – do all turn into autism – no – do they tell you that a seizure is a possibility – not always.

The shot is giving the child what it is trying to protect them from – okay – I get it, perhaps it is a result from the said disease that we are trying to combat – I could see that as well.

I’m not spouting that it is the metal or some other chemical because I don’t believe it is one smoking gun otherwise the numbers would be much larger – I realize that.

I’m just saying that I do believe the shots play some part and that I can see the powers that be justifying that in their eyes a few “bad reactions” are worth the rest of the people not having whopping cough or measels and so on.

Now I realize if you believe your child has had this from day one and you believe the child had this before receiving any shots then again it is only a piece of the puzzle.

And by the way all 3 of my kids have had their shots. I’m just asking and amazed at the rage that seems to spew forth when we question the vaccines.

And if we are to listen to the reports that I would assume the doctors receive as well that some kids come out of this or grow out of this – why isn’t that one of the first things communicated by said doctors who give this diagnosis? Aren’t these same doctors aware of all that great reporting?

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Stacy Caldwell
September 25th, 2007
23:20:09

Jenny might of been up there for herself and her book and so on, but she brought to light alot of good points that most people don’t even think about. Like looking into the diet of our children and what the so called healthy food is full of. For example, pasturized milk is full of sugar, but you always hear “drink your milk its full of calcium and vitamin d”. Well you can get more calcium from numerous vegetables and fruit, and the best source of vitamin d is from the sun. Vaccinations are full of dangerous things. For example latex rubber, aluminum, mercury, phenol/phenoxyethanol which is used as ANTIFREEZE, plus many more. This information was found @ korenpublications.com and was writen by Harris L. Coutler, Ph.D. Vaccinations are linked to asthma, allergies, ADD & ADHD, chronic illnesses, and much more. Autism is being linked to family, diet, and VACCINATIONS. Knowledge is power and regardless of how this information is getting heard, its getting heard! In our society today famous people are looked up to, listened to, and idolized, so who cares if she did it for her book, people listened to her. Autism is very common in our youth, our young children and in our babies. Autism effects about 1 in every 200 children. These children are our future. We should be doing everything possible to protect our children. Education and awareness are the keys to this, and if it takes a celebrity to start the buzz about something then so be it.

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Sullivan
September 25th, 2007
23:25:09

“Autism is being linked to family, diet, and VACCINATIONS.”

the correct way to put this is that people have been trying to link autism to vaccinations for a long time.

It hasn’t happened yet.

Autism is very common in our youth, our young children and in our babies. Autism effects about 1 in every 200 children.

Autism most likely affects about 1 in 100 people. Not just children. That message gets lost much of the time, not just in your post.

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tammie
September 25th, 2007
23:33:25

While this post is supposed to be about Jenny on Oprah I am curious based on those who have commented what their views are on “autism spectrum” do you believe that there are varying degrees or is this just something new that has cropted as a way to explain things?

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HN
September 25th, 2007
23:51:07

Lack of actual evidence and non-answer to my question duly noted.

Just see what Sullivan said, and you should check out what this guy says:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars1.htm

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Cameron.R
September 26th, 2007
00:00:28

I am SOOOO disscussed at mainly all of you that are trying to tear Jenny Mc.apart for what she has experienced with Autism, I’m almost positive that ALL of you with a child with Autism would go to these measures(if you had the $)to see a diffrance in your child ,So why may I ask would someone critasize another for what worked for them??She is not say go out and do what she did right?There still is NO cure for Autism so any info is good info RIGHT?

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HN
September 26th, 2007
00:00:56

Tammie, you asked about the autism spectrum… Yes, it is new. It is something I’ve seen happen over the last 15 years. The DSM changed drastically in 1994 to include several different kinds of autism.

Here is something about it:
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health.....tion.shtml
and more at:
http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....117/4/1028

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preesi
September 26th, 2007
00:17:40

Did you see Jenny today on THE VIEW proclaiming HER SON IS NO LONGER AUTISTIC?

Shes a JOKE!

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Sullivan
September 26th, 2007
00:54:05

“I am SOOOO disscussed at mainly all of you that are trying to tear Jenny Mc.apart for what she has experienced with Autism, ”

no one is tearing her apart for what she has experienced. People are rightly upset that she has drawn flawed conclusions from her experiences.

Very different situations.

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HN
September 26th, 2007
01:16:11

More accurate (even though they are fiction!) and interesting reading on autism:

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time by Mark Haddon

and (this has some interesting insights on curing autism) Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon (whose son is autistic):
http://www.elizabethmoon.com/autism-general.htm

Another very interesting NON-fiction book by a dad whose son was diagnosed is Not Even Wrong, Adverntures in Autism by Paul Collins.

I would also like to repeat the recommendation of No Time for Jello by Berneen Bratt.

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HN
September 26th, 2007
01:16:46

More accurate (even though they are fiction!) and interesting reading on autism:

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time by Mark Haddon

and (this has some interesting insights on curing autism) Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon (whose son is autistic)

Another very interesting NON-fiction book by a dad whose son was diagnosed is Not Even Wrong, Adverntures in Autism by Paul Collins.

I would also like to repeat the recommendation of No Time for Jello by Berneen Bratt.

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tammie
September 26th, 2007
01:51:57

Thanks hn I’ll check those out. I didn’t think that was something that had been around. I had read a while ago that some felt that autism and schizophrenia and alzehmers were really different names for similar “issues” based on age. Not sure if that is completely true but still fasinating.

Okay so I’m not quoting facts and number for you on vaccines however, when I tell you that a child has had a seizure 2 days after receiving the shot – I get nothing, same for mothers who state that something changed after their child received it yet if the doctor tells you “no that had nothing to do with it” or better yet “it was a coincendence” how can reports be accurate?

Also, just so you know I’m not a government and medical folks are always wrong, or always right for that matter. But I’m open to learning more.

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katproc1@yahoo.com
September 26th, 2007
01:56:29

RELAX… OPEN YOUR MIND. Jenny almost lost her son… more than once. His heart stopped. She has put her energy into her son’s health. If you read her book you will see why she doesn’t trust the Medical Professionals. She is trying to help others by speaking and I’m sure doesn’t mind making money along the way.
My healthy 6 month old son had a severe stroke 1 week after his DPaT vaccines. I was sent home by his Pediatrician and two hourse later I was sent home by and ER Physician. The next morning he was having seizures. We spent 5 terrifying days in the hosptial. We are VERY lucky he is doing so well. He is now 14 months old. Do I think it had anything to do with the vaccines? Maybe. Maybe it was too much on his little body. We follow up with his Neurologist, see specialists and research constantly. I will do anything to give him a long, healthy life.
Kathy
http://www.BabyFrankiesStroke.com

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HN
September 26th, 2007
02:13:42

A long time ago autism was called a form of childhood schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is completely different, in that is usually starts in the late teens, is genetic and does occur in about 1 in 100.

I am also not the best person to pull the “the child had seizures 2 days after something”... My son had neo-natal seizures when he was 2 days old (48 hours old). This was before he had any shots, jabs or anything of the sort. The seizures started out as little shivers, only to come more frequently, stronger and longer. He was transported by baby ambulance to a children’s hospital where he was put into infant intensive care, then given phenobarbital. Fortunately, that stopped his seizures.

He was weaned from phenobarbital when he was a year old.

Then a month later he had another grand mal seizure when he was dehydrated with a nasty gastrointestinal infection (possibly due to a rotavirus that there is now a vaccine for).

You see, seizures happen. Seizures have happened even before there were vaccines. Sometimes the timing is just a coincidence. Sometimes a vaccine will cause a fever and then there will be a febrile seizure. But they often do not cause permanent harm.

But there are other seizure disorders that do cause developmental disorders (Landau Kleffner Syndrome), and some that are due to abnormalities in the brain that occurred before the child was born.

In other words, anecdotes are not evidence… and anecdotes about something I know all to much about.

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Gonzo
September 26th, 2007
03:09:21

Tammie says:

Gonzo “she doesn’t put her money where her mouth is”

Guess you spoke too soon.

Nope. I didn’t. Spending her portion (how much of a portion? 10 percent?) of her book proceeds on a small portion of the population in her backyard, rather than contributing it to a national organization still smacks of eliteism to me.

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Rose
September 26th, 2007
03:14:07

To Steve:

I just dont understand how you think a lab test or urine test are just “significant reasons to doubt the validity of the test results”. This is BLOOD WORK of what is actually in our own bodies Or a urine sample, something that pregnant women do every day for a pregnancy test (some are up to 99% effective) and also sugar, excess yeast, just to name a few for urine tests. Doctors do urine tests every day & you are telling me that now these are invalid? Ok, that is fine to think like that but I won’t buy into that. I know when I continue to repeat these tests on my son every 2-3 months & the levels in his mercury are going down from chelation. The same person isn’t in the lab saying “oh, here’s this same kid from 2 months ago, let’s show his mercury & lead have gone down…”. What is, is. My son has done all of the “mainstream” therapies, ABA, speech, ot & continues to receive speech & ot in school. However, he would not be where he is today w/out help from our DAN doctor (who does write out scripts for our labs & then calls to explain them, I’m not just “floating out here” trying to figure out what they mean because some “nameless lab tech” took my kids’ blood or urine!), chiropractic treatments and gfcf diet. I know some of you on this board don’t believe in biomed but it really is amazing. My son is for sure my proof, as where he was before DAN was a very scary place for us as his parents to be. Now we are so looking forward to our son’s future. He is thriving in a mainstream kdg. class & doing so great. I just hope your kids are doing well. I know what I will tell newly diagnosed parents if asked. I’ll give them the name of my DAN dr. & tell them to start biomed treatments asap. Sorry you are so negative to this very effective treatment protocol.

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H
September 26th, 2007
03:30:57

Does this mean that Evan is no longer an “Indigo child”? Is she still a “Crystal”
I heard she had to “come clean” on the ASD diagnosis since word was getting out that her son was receiving therapies related to autism.

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Kanaan
September 26th, 2007
03:47:21

I just watched the Oprah show with Jenny McCarthy. Prior to this, I had not heard much on Autism. I thought it was rare since I had only encountered 1 autistic child in my 35 years.

Whether you all would like to believe it or not – that show helped more than it hurt. I was stunned to learn that 1 out 150 children develop Autism. It moved me to this blog and to research Autism. It has also moved me help people get the CDC to find the cause of this disease. My hearts goes out to all the parents whose child is affected by this.

I am sure that I will get a lot of backlash from bloggers who feel that since I am not personally effected by this disease that I should not have an opinion or anything to say.

Well, this is my opinion. I am glad I watched the Oprah show today and was made aware of a disease that is effecting so many children. I am not saying that Jenny’s opinion of Autism is correct. I am saying that it brought awareness to Autism.

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Steve D
September 26th, 2007
04:27:49

Rose – “...Now we are so looking forward to our son’s future. He is thriving in a mainstream kdg. class & doing so great…”
I am, I really am, happy to hear that your son is thriving. Its all I wish for all people.

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Kev
September 26th, 2007
07:00:54

Kanaan – there’s awareness and awareness. What autistic people need is awareness of their needs (educational, human rights, therapeutic). What they don’t need is someone with a book to plug with a rent-a-story from an antivaccine viewpoint.

I’m glad you were moved to find out more about autism, I really am but I am worried as to how that desire has shaped your forming opinions regarding the nature of autism.

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Kelly S
September 26th, 2007
10:30:51

Kanaan –
Just to educate you a little further, autism is NOT a “disease”. It is classified as a neurological “disorder”. Those two words have very different meanings.

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Gonzo
September 26th, 2007
13:13:10

If Kanaan’s opinions of his interpretation of the autism world, as taken from Oprah and Jenny McCarthy, is indicative of a small sample of the population, we are in big trouble.

This is my biggest issue with Jenny right now – that she is being interpreted as a savior for the autism world because she was on Oprah. Oprah has far too much say and pull today (see book sales of her book club and potentially the 2008 US presidential election for proof) and a lot of people watched that show and are coming away from it misinformed.

There were no opposing views offered by people at the show (indeed, shows, as we’ve seen no one given the opportunity to speak to oppose her on any of the shows she’s been on. Just when did talk shows get so lame?!) aside from a piece of paper from the CDC which couldn’t defend itself. That’s hardly a way to inform the public.

And Google searches are just as worse.

Kev is absolutely right. The way she presented her information was one-sided. There are other therapies out there and they deserve just as much air time as hers. They work just as well for other children.

Please, keep researching Kanaan. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just please know that there is more out there than Jenny McCarthy as a resource.

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Joseph
September 26th, 2007
14:08:15

My son has done all of the “mainstream” therapies, ABA, speech, ot & continues to receive speech & ot in school. However, he would not be where he is today w/out help from our DAN doctor

I always find this sort of argument perplexing. If you’re trying multiple therapies, how do you know which one is “working”? Does it depend on your preconceptions of what autism is? Never mind the unpredictable variables: the child’s natural development and your own subjectivity.

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tammie
September 26th, 2007
14:56:33

Hn again thanks for the links in the earlier post.

One thing I found interesting though is that the link to NIMH under treatment specifically tells parents to do just what JM is doing – searching.

To have the NIMH, and I’m paraphrashing under Treatment Options tell parents to search out answers that work for their child and that there is no one package (their word) to fix, cure, improve whatever word you want to use. Their statement is then followed with the following questions parents should ask prior to starting different treatments:

Will the treatment result in harm to my child?
How will failure of the treatment affect my child and family?
Has the treatment been validated scientifically?
Are there assessment procedures specified?
How will the treatment be integrated into my child’s current program? Do not become so infatuated with a given treatment that functional curriculum, vocational life, and social skills are ignored.

JM stated that during times when her husband watched their son he would incorporate things she had taken out of her sons diet only to see a setback, and then a return to progress when she removed it again (like dairy).

She’s doing what the NIMH recommends – not the specfic treatments but to go out on your own and find what works for you.

I’ll grant you that perhaps she did not do enough in explaining her views when on tv on vaccinations as she does in her book but the anger in some of the earlier posts by some here towards her I find incredible.

If the anger is that we shouldn’t be talking about vaccines at all then I guess I’m odd man/woman out.

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Kev
September 26th, 2007
15:27:34

If that is indeed the advice that the NIMH are giving out then I really think they need to think again.

Medically speaking, ‘trying things out’ is commonly referred to as ‘experimentation’.

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Cheryl Walniuk
September 26th, 2007
15:38:45

I have a son with high-functioning autism and I related directly to several things that Jenny McCarthy said in the recent People article, which like many of you I encountered at a doctor’s office. Yes, some of her comments seemed shallow, but I understand all too well having to use the “University of Google” while waiting an eternity to have your child diagnosed.

I also witnessed firsthand the very dramatic impact of nutritional therapy. Three days after my three year old son began DMG therapy, he went from total echolalia (no original speech) to asking me “What are you doing, Mommy?” The treatment for yeast overgrowth that McCarthy described was recommended by the specialist we finally found, and we saw dramatic improvement from that, as well. We never tried the wheat and dairy free diet because my son ate only chicken nuggets, jalapeno pretzels and chocolate milk at that time and it seemed too drastic, but we give him an enzyme that helps him break these substances down. Cod liver oil corrected his problems with maintaining eye contact within a few weeks. He’s in a mainstream first grade class and doing wonderfully. Some of th other supplements we’ve tried haven’t seemed to make much difference, although magnesium has a good effect on temper tantrums. He is doing very well in a mainstream 1st grade class now, with only minor assistance from occupational therapists. He still stims and he still has wonderful little quirks that we adore, but he’s interactive, inquisitive and outgoing—a far cry from the child who just walked in circles and recited the multiplication tables at age two.

My anger in reading the article was not at the comments made by McCarthy but those in the little sidebar by the token physician who spoke dismissively about everything that worked for McCarthy’s son and my own. It is not just an issue of the child being more comfortable and therefore more susceptible to other therapies. That doesn’t explain the rapid and dramatic changes many parents have seen. And of course it hasn’t been tested—there’s no money in testing nutritionals and our government currently places many, many things above the health of our children, so there’s little hope of extensive studies being funded there, either.

Nutritional remedies don’t work for all kids—and I’m convinced that this is because autism has multiple causes. For some kids, that cause might be vaccines and we don’t help solve the problem by ignoring that. (Other kids, like my son, seem to have been born with autistic tendencies.) Nutritional therapies do work for some of kids, however, and anything that helps to get that message out is unadulterated good. My husband and I both have graduate degrees and that helped us to do our own, admittedly unscientific, research when looking for help for our son. Many parents of autistic children don’t have the resources that we do, and if Jenny’s comments in her book, magazine articles or on Oprah point them toward the relatively affordable alternative of nutritional therapy, then she has done an immense service.

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Joy
September 26th, 2007
16:25:18

While I respect everyones opinion and see some of the points of view I have to say that I applaud JM for getting the word out there. Anything that encourages autism awareness is a good thing. Parents have to decide on a case by case basis about diets, vaccines, supplements, etc but I value knowing any other parent’s experiences, celebrity or not.

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HN
September 26th, 2007
16:52:03

That is all fine and dandy, Joy… but we really wish the “word” was more accurate.

Unfortunately part of that “word” some people are coming away with is that vaccines cause autism, that very expensive therapies are worth more than the educational programs many of us have worked very hard to get from the schools under IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act).

Why couldn’t that kind of publicity have been there for some much better (and accurate) books like Not Even Wrong, Adventures in Autism by Paul Collins?

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Matt
September 26th, 2007
16:52:45

If that is indeed the advice that the NIMH are giving out then I really think they need to think again.

Kev,

the NIMH website has two sets of questions under treatment. The first, as quoted above by Tammie, are quotes of the Autism Society of America guidelines.

The NIMH recommendations are fairly clearly discussing placements in “programs” not “treatments”

The discussion of the Diet is under “Dietary and other Interventions”. that section starts with:

To be accepted as a proven treatment, the treatment should undergo clinical trials, preferably randomized, double-blind trials, that would allow for a comparison between treatment and no treatment. Following are some of the interventions that have been reported to have been helpful to some children but whose efficacy or safety has not been proven.

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Joy
September 26th, 2007
16:55:53

I didn’t get that at all from what she said. She barely mentioned vaccines in anything I saw or read. If that’s all that you picked up out of everything that’s been said than you were hearing something different then me. I also think she was talking about these other treatments in addition to educational interventions, not excluding educational interventions.

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HN
September 26th, 2007
17:22:32

Perhaps YOU did not get that from what she said, but others seem to get that impression (it also depends on which publicity venue you happened to catch her flouting her book):
http://www.autismvox.com/autis.....tism-what/

Though my point is that there are much much better books to read. Repeat of recommended books. plus some others (some fiction, some memoirs, some on other disabilities):

Not Even Wrong by Paul Collins
The Curious Incident of the Dog at Night Time by Mark Haddon
Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon
Train Go Sorry by Leah Cohen Hager
Deaf Like Me by the Spradley brothers
Making Peace with Autism by Susan Senator
The Silent Boy by Lois Lowry
Summer of the Swans by Betsy Byars

Autism Hub blogger Mike Stanton has written a book Learning to Live with High Functioning Autism, but I have not been able to find it locally (I don’t think it made it to this side of the pond).

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Joy
September 26th, 2007
17:25:56

Thank you for the list of books. I will definitely check these out.

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Cher Bartlett
September 26th, 2007
18:56:53

I am a medical intuitive and work with autistic children and other people who have neurological issues, including my own son who was diagnosed with sensory integration disorder at the age of 4. He is now a high functioning highschool freshmen who benefited enormously from alternative treatments. Based on years of work, it is very clear to me that the pathogens in the vaccines are a major factor in all neurological issues. A newborn with a newborn immune system cannot handle the pathogen load inflicted upon them. As with all manifestations of dis-ease, there is a physical, medical, emotional and spiritual component. I encourage all of you to become advocates for your children and your own health as well.
The medical model is antiquated and the pioneers who save these kids, one at a time, will be part of a new and more rational approach to living well.

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Kev
September 26th, 2007
19:04:26

“Based on years of work, it is very clear to me that the pathogens in the vaccines are a major factor in all neurological issues.”

What work is that Cher? Please point me to the published science.

“The medical model is antiquated and the pioneers who save these kids, one at a time, will be part of a new and more rational approach to living well.”

Pioneers? I prefer to think of them as what they are – child-experimenters.

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HN
September 26th, 2007
19:10:42

Cher, what is a medical “intuitive”? What is your training?

And what real evidence and documentation do you have to support the statement: “Based on years of work, it is very clear to me that the pathogens in the vaccines are a major factor in all neurological issues. A newborn with a newborn immune system cannot handle the pathogen load inflicted upon them.”

Give us something more than anecdotal observations. Something on the order of this (take note of the list of over 60 references at the bottom):
http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....109/1/124?

Also answer this question: Which is more dangerous and why, the MMR vaccine, measles or mumps? Be sure to include verifiable references.

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Joseph
September 26th, 2007
19:15:37

Cher: You must mean ‘science-based model’ or ‘evidence-based model’. The term ‘medical model’ refers to the medical model of disability, which is just one of the ways people view disability. Another model is the ‘social model’. (Completely different discussion.)

It is a ridiculous and pathetic idea to replace the evidence-based model with armchair-expertise, ad-hoc observations, testimonials and willi-nilly child experimentation. Why in the world would anyone think this is a good thing?

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Susan
September 26th, 2007
19:28:22

I find it interesting that whenever Oprah does a show on autism nothing is ever said about Fragile X Syndrome. If your child has a chromosome disorder that causes autism I don’t think any diet is going to “cure” your child. I’m happy for Jenny’s son that he has improved but I don’t believe that he is healed or cured.

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Kelly S
September 26th, 2007
19:37:57

From Wikipedia –
Medical Intuitive

“In alternative medicine, a Medical Intuitive is a person who allegedly uses their intuition to find the cause of a physical or emotional condition. Many medical intuitives also claim to heal illness using “intuitive energies”, although healing is not necessarily within the scope of practice for all Medical Intuitives.”

Also, it should be well noted by folks here:

“There are no peer-reviewed scientific studies which support the claims of medical intuitives. Intuitives would counter that, as a direct perception of truth independent of any reasoning process (i.e., epistemology of individual experience), medical intuition is not a science and cannot be tested scientifically. Further, some medical intuitives and other alternative medicine practitioners consider the reductionist nature of empirical scientific research to be hostile toward (while systematically suppressing) holistic and innovative challenges to conventional medicine, and incapable of detecting universal truths.”

In other words, “medical intuitiveness” (sheesh, that’s a mouthful) is about as accurate as palm reading or horoscope.

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tammie
September 26th, 2007
20:10:13

It’s funny or sad I’m not sure which yet but simply giving a list of books to read even listing fiction books as better reference I have to wonder just like the medical field and the ones way out there in left field crying no vaccines for anyone – just what is the agenda?

So far the websites and so called authorities put forth here in these posts have one thing in common – there is no certain right or wrong answer, if I call it a treatment the argument is “who wants to be treated” if it is called a cure the arguement is no cure is needed.

Really it is absolute nonsense and when I use the site that is “recommended” here and see that even they talk of parents being an active role be it treatment or programs and run down the list of diet and supplements and behavioral teachings it is clear – there is no clear answer from either side.

So folks are back at zero and yeah go ahead call it “experimenting” I’d rather do that than nothing or take every doctor at their word as if they are God – they make mistakes – the get it wrong sometimes.

Neither side has it right.

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Cher
September 26th, 2007
20:26:44

I have no agenda, and as a medical intuitive, I do enjoy my clients who are MD’s, and appreciate their openness to expanded possibilities. Even medicine is at best an evolving body of work. I never said I was anti-vaccine….just an advocate for waiting for their little brains and immune systems to develop before we inject them with potentially harmful cocktails.
I remember being told not to eat canned tuna when I was pregnant because of the mercury levels, yet hours after my son’s entrance into the world, he was injected with themerisol laced vaccines. Yes, there are mixed messages everywhere. In my experience, I have found that glutathione levels are very low with the kids who seem to be the most affected, and that is why diet does help, because the low glutathine levels seems to encourage yeast overgrowth. When I detoxified the mercury out of my son, he seemed to have the greatest improvement. Cranial Sacral therapy was also a godsend. Many blessings to all of you.

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Jessica Hembree
September 26th, 2007
20:30:20

At least someone in the celeb community is out there spreading awarness. True, the show didn’t really help me either, but atleast it brought some attention to the issue.

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Sullivan
September 26th, 2007
20:53:16

At least someone in the celeb community is out there spreading awarness. True, the show didn’t really help me either, but atleast it brought some attention to the issue.

I find it odd that everyone seems to forget the celebrity based awareness campaign of Autism Speaks. Bill Cosby, Toni Braxton (autism mom).

Celebrities bring “awareness” to a subject like autism. The same psychology makes that awareness short lived.

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HN
September 26th, 2007
21:23:32

Sullivan said “Celebrities bring “awareness” to a subject like autism. The same psychology makes that awareness short lived.”

Just like Suzanne Somers and her “bio-identical” hormone book. That came and went (which is fortunate, in that it was promoting some questionable treatments!).

Cher said “Cranial Sacral therapy was also a godsend. “... oh, yeah… like a light head massage is going to rearrange neurons in the brain!

You seem to have missed actually posting verifiable evidence for your claims.

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Cher
September 26th, 2007
21:41:02

HN—what are you so afraid of? That someone could actually heal without the sanction of the “proven”? CS therapy was a god send—- and my MD husband and the father of that little boy was the first to say so….
how sad are you.

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Kev
September 26th, 2007
21:53:31

Cher – you are talking total rubbish. Dangerous rubbish. I would like to know what you’re references are for your beliefs about ‘healing’ and ‘dangerous cocktails’, not your personal opinions, which are, when we get right down to it, utterly meaningless without any data to support them.

You want to cure autism right? For as many autistic kids as you can right? The best and fastest way to do that is to design a decent study or studies that will support your viewpoint. You’d also probably win a Nobel prize. What’s stopping you?

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Kev
September 26th, 2007
21:58:48

“So folks are back at zero and yeah go ahead call it “experimenting” I’d rather do that than nothing or take every doctor at their word as if they are God – they make mistakes – the get it wrong sometimes.”

And who exactly advocates doing nothing? Who says you should take every doctor at their word? Who has suggested doctors don’t mistakes?

If a scientist (a proper one, not a DAN! quack) wants to perform a study that involves kids s/he has to go through a lot of hurdles including an IRB (an institutional review board) to decide if the study is designed well enough to avoid as much danger as possible to the participants.

These child-experimenters do not. This is how the autism/anti-vax community has the blood of one dead child and numerous seriously injured ones on its hands. They go ahead and try out any old shit they feel like. And you think that’s ‘better than nothing’? I don’t. I’d much rather have an autistic daughter than a dead or hospitalised daughter.

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Peggy
September 26th, 2007
22:03:18

My brother, who is 2 years older than me, had tourette syndrome. I am now genuinely scared to subject any future children I might have, to vaccinations, due to widespread (albeit unproven) links to autism – since tourettes is now also linked to autism. I applaud Jenny for trying to get public awareness started, as most people do not have the platform in which to do that. Like it or not – Jenny’s got a voice that many of us wish we had. And many other people who could do something about it, are not concerned enough to try. Research needs to be done, vaccinations need to be altered until proven safe in every way, and perhaps revised vaccination schedules need to be made. We all have a moral obligation to protect children as a whole, to make it a safe place for them to live healthfully, and to grow normally. If we, as a society, neglect to push for the research of the causes of these disorders, and for the reform of these required vaccinations, as they relate to causing harm to helpless children, their impairments continue to be due to our neglects. Denial never helped anyone.

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tammie
September 26th, 2007
22:27:40

Kev we probably arent to off on seeing eye to eye – I’m not saying DAN’s are the answer and I agree – to what extent is experimentation right or wrong. It is just that some of these post get so rightous in their slamming any thoughts of what could be going on.

I’m just as leary about a scientist that you’d probably deem worthy – that’s just me.

On a side note I see that NBC has piece coming up on the evening news about mecury and vaccines.

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HN
September 26th, 2007
22:30:12

Peggy (who admitted there is no proven link between autism and vaccines) continues to say “Research needs to be done, vaccinations need to be altered until proven safe in every way, and perhaps revised vaccination schedules need to be made.”

The research HAS been done… over, and over and over again. There is not any real evidence.

Now tourettes is horrible? Yikes, don’t tell that to the surgeon Oliver Sacks wrote about in An Anthropologist on Mars !

(yeah, Tammie is dismayed that I keep referring folks to better books … but I still think one should not waste their time with bad books written by celebrities)

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HN
September 26th, 2007
22:35:58

Cher said “HN—what are you so afraid of? ”

Presently, the only thing I am afraid of is reading something like you wrote while drinking coffee. I am afraid that what damage I can cause to my laptop while bursting out laughing with a mouthful of liquid!

Actually, cranial sacral therapy (which essentially a homeopathic head massage) has been investigated and was found not worth it:
http://www.chspr.ubc.ca/node/361

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Peggy
September 26th, 2007
22:40:37

To HN:
Yes, I can most assuredly attest to the fact that tourrettes is horrible. My brother had uncontrollable twitching, and fits of rage that our entire family had to deal with. My parents had to feel guilty because they didn’t know how to help him, and my sister and I took a total backseat to his problem, since it demanded most of our parents’ attention. As much pain as that caused us all, my brother was still the one who got the short end of the stick. Though he is very intelligent, he’s gone through a living hell in growing up. Makes it difficult to resent him for being the “problem child”. He’s much better now that he’s an adult and has two boys of his own. There are just too many testimonials that people have gone through with their children taking a “severe turn for the worse” after being subjected to synthetic viruses – sometimes three viruses at a time – when these viruses attack their bodies’ immune systems. Do you work for Merck?

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Mary
September 26th, 2007
22:45:42

I am a mom with a son that has autism…NOT AN AUTISTIC CHILD!! How would some of you folk like it if I descibed your child as the stupid child, or the black child,etc. Autism does NOT describe my son. I think Jenny McCarthy was on Oprah to promote her book. Yeah…we have all be there, us parents with kids with autism. It is a struggle, day in and out! She didn’t say much. Her Counterpart, the other woman on the show, much smater and much more intellegent!

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Cher
September 26th, 2007
22:53:34

HN—I’m glad I could contibute to your heart health with a good laugh…
This is why studies are usually so inconsequential—like movie reviews…
After one “not worth it” CS session, my son’s speech was easily 100% better. The CS therapy does support an increase in CS fluid…. never a bad things when your brain is dysfunctional. Mercury is a known neurotoxin,
you don’t have to be rocket scientist to know that. And, there are no safe levels considered for that heavy metal.
You’ll be happy to hear about the study that came out a few weeks ago that said that people who had gotten three flu vaccines three years in a row had a significant increase in alzeimers. Those too are loaded with neurotoxins—themerisol and other pathogens like formaldahyde and aborted fetal tissue… If I am dangerous, then you are deadly.

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Matt
September 26th, 2007
23:02:02

Peggy: Do you work for Merck?

You are kindly invited to look through the “Canards”. There is a link on the top of the page. #1 deals with the question, “Are you a Pharma Shill”.

People who buy into the idea that “Big Pharma” is setting up blogs and posting into forums to protect themselves tend to lose credibility.

There are just too many testimonials that people have gone through with their children taking a “severe turn for the worse” after being subjected to synthetic viruses – sometimes three viruses at a time – when these viruses attack their bodies’ immune systems.

I will not touch the idea of a “synthetic virus” other than to point out I assume you mean a vaccine strain virus (which is a natural virus).

The problem is exactly as you explain: there are too many testimonials. There are also too few facts.

Some people are seriously harmed by vaccines. Any effort that can be done to reduce that is a good thing. However, people are also seriously harmed by diseases that can be prevented by vaccines. Anything done to prevent that is also a good thing.

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Matt
September 26th, 2007
23:05:01

Well,

we got over 130 responses before the phrase “known neurotoxin” was used. Pretty good, I think.

The CS therapy does support an increase in CS fluid…. never a bad things when your brain is dysfunctional.

first, do you have any studies to support the first part.

Second, would you say the second part if this were a hydrocephalus discussion?

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Peggy
September 26th, 2007
23:23:58

Matt:

You are absolutely right. I don’t claim to be a scientist or even all that knowledgeable about how multi-viruses forced into an infant’s body affects them. Especially since every child is in a different state of health and all have DNA differences. Don’t know why it seems to hurt some, and not others. That is the question that needs to be answered, though. I just know that it does “seem” to have a grave affect, from reading stories that parents of these unfortunate babies have posted on the internet. Sad, isn’t it, that there isn’t more awareness about this issue, from a scientific vantage point, out there? I am sure that there is a lot of data on vaccines, most of which is derived from pharmaceutical companies. They’re usually the ones that submit the data. I am grateful for conventional medicine – even vaccines – thank God that we have those things. It’s just that history has proven that when it comes to money & dangerous drugs, things tend to be overlooked at times. Vaccinations just so happen to be something that MOST people now get, so there’s a LOT of money going out to the drug companies for these required shots. They’re not always about just “helping people” though they do help people too, and I’d like to think that they are not completely in it for the reason of greed. It’s not about “Big Pharma” being evil – It’s about the root of all evil – greed. That applies to everyone. They just so happen to be people who are in an industry that manufactures life altering products. Of course, there’s a HUGE responsibility that goes along with that. To prove that their own drugs causes major problems would be shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak. Probably, the government needs to step in and put more focus on DISPROVING that the 3-in-1 vaccinations are dangerous.

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Cher
September 26th, 2007
23:27:46

Even though I have no apparant credibility, I will tell you that I am working on an interesting variable—that women whose children seem to be hit the hardest, happen to themselves have a super high mercury load from dental amalgams, flu vaccines…and other heavy metals like aluminum…

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tammie
September 26th, 2007
23:28:05

Hn, not better books FICTION books.

Well the nbc news media didn’t do any better at explaining one side or the other.

Had one woman from the CDC say that it’s been looked at and no nothing there followed by another woman who clearly feels mercury is the complete cause.

Which leaves the rest of us who are somewhere in the middle still asking questions.

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Ms.Clark
September 26th, 2007
23:39:19

“...since tourettes is now also linked to autism.”

I used to think that was true. But I asked one of the world’s experts on Tourette if it was so that Asperger’s/ASD was found more commonly in Tourette’s than in the non-Tourette folks. He said, from what he has seen it’ is possible to have Tourette and AS, but that it’s at no higher rate than you would expect randomly, as in 1 in 150 or so Tourette people also have and ASD.

Him being a world expert, I decided to take his word for it until someone did a real study of Tourette and Autism.

Most Tourette people are totally normal socially except for the social burden of having to hide tics or dealing with rejection when they can’t hide them.

If there was a big overlap between ASD and Tourette (which kids do grow out of and usually isn’t apparent until like 7 years of age) people would have noticed it a long time ago.

David Kirby is on Huffpoof having raptures over the idea that thimerosal could cause Tourette, look out TS community here comes the man with the anti-CDC vendetta, he’s going to tell you that you fell into the abyss/hell of TS because of thimerosal. For some reason I think the TS community is going to ignore him.

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HN
September 27th, 2007
01:03:39

Tammie wrote “Hn, not better books FICTION books.”

Not Even Wrong by Paul Collins in non fiction.

As is the book by Susan Senator, and the one by Oliver Sacks.

The fiction books have a better handle on autism reality than a ghost authored book by a “celebrity”. I gave a list of books that time would be better spent on than one flogged on daytime talk shows.

I advised the fiction book by Elizabeth Moon (whose son is autistic) because it is a cautionary tale about “curing” autism. I would suggest you read it and take not of its ending before crying “cure, cure, cure” again.

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HN
September 27th, 2007
01:11:53

Cher said “and other heavy metals like aluminum…”

Um, what planet is aluminum considered a “heavy” metal?

Did you download and read this:
http://www.chspr.ubc.ca/node/361

Please tell us which papers are available to refute its finding?

By the way, my son went to no speech at age three to speaking, and is now attending community college with just plain ol’ speech therapy.

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tammie
September 27th, 2007
01:44:06

Hn I’ve never once shouted cure, cure, cure.

Reread my posts and you’ll see I am not pushing one way to cure something. Not once have I said that.

And thats great the info about your child but what does that mean?

That was your experience, my experience has been that at the age 2 in the late 70’s my brother had a seizure shortly after his vaccine and yes sometimes seizures occur for no reason and then later in his teens he became schizophrenic – was it the vaccine? Was he predisposed to having it even if he had no shot or no seizure? I don’t know and I may never know.

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tammie
September 27th, 2007
01:48:48

This is my last post here at this site.

Let me just say I am glad a site like this is here and I don’t completely agree with those who have bashed JM but I understand a little better why some are upset with JM.

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paul
September 27th, 2007
05:47:42

I watched the JM interview on Larry King this evening. I, as many of you had stated, agree with JM. I don’t care that she is promoting a book or trying to make money to pay off her bills for therapy’s and things that will help her son “recover” as she stated, from the affects of Autism.
It’s amazing how people only hear what they want to hear and don’t “listen” to everything that is said.
She stated quite a few times that her son is “recovering” from Autism, but will never full recover from it. Sounded like she said that he will always be a child with Autism to me, but I heard her as well as listened too.
I also think that she is missing something. From the seizures her child is experiencing and a few other things, her child my have Fragile X syndrome.
I am a father of a child with Autism. He was diagnosed at the age of 3 and is now 9 years old. At the age of 4 1/2, my wife and I put him on a wheat free/gluten free diet. Within three days, our son went from running full speed back and fourth across the house, no eye contact and acting like he was totally spaced out, to being calm, no more running, trying to make eye contact and just almost a completely different person. He was actually focusing at school, trying to play with other kids and started to make an effort with everything. Within a month, he was potty trained. FINALLY. And this was not without trying for a few years. We tried to potty train him in every which way. He just did not care. But now he finally did! A change in his diet did this! Does this mean that he is recovering from Autism? I don’t care about that. All I care about is that he changed for the better from something SO simple. His teacher and therapists at his pre-school called us within days of changing his diet and they inquired what type of medication we had our son on. We told them what we did and they were elated and surprised!
When he eats cake or a cupcake from school when somebody has a birthday party, we can sure tell. It’s like somebody gave him Crack Cocaine or something, because he is totally out of control for 6 hours afterwards. So, no more wheat or gluten for our son and all of his teachers know the price of giving it to him! They have to deal with him being out of control, knowing that they caused it from not paying attention to his diet.
Now, for the vaccines theory: I am for vaccination, but I totally agree with JM stance on this. If anyone has done any research on this fact, one would see direct effect.
The organic based mercury compound, thimerosal, can not be safely tested anywhere. If you put of drop of this chemical on your skin, it kills it. If you put a drop of it on your tongue, it WILL kill you.
This is MUCH different than the mercury that is in thermometers. That has a metallic compound and the body naturally rejects it.
I DO know that our son was starting to talk at age 1 ½. He was starting to say “Daddy UP” “I Love Mommy” and other phrases like that. ALWAYS had eye contact too! THREE days after his vaccination, everything stopped! We were freaking out. Our son’s pediatrician didn’t have a clue and said that he was speech delayed and that kids sometimes do this. At the time we knew this was BS. Did we vaccinate him ever again after that? NOPE! And he’s healthier than most kids at his school, has never had an ear infection and rarely ever gets sick, unless he eats something with wheat or gluten in it!!
I don’t need a drug company or anyone else to tell me that the vaccine did not cause this, as THOUSANDS of other mothers and fathers can attest too. The drug companies experimented on our children for a profit. GEE! THANKS! And you chastise JM for speaking out against them? Where’s your outrage against Big Pharma? I think it’s displaced.
Why did we increase the dosage of vaccinations from 10 to 32 during the late 80’s and early 90’s? Was there an epidemic going on that I was not aware of? Not from the research that I have done! And I grew up during the era.
JM was just asking that the CDC clean up the vaccines and change the schedule of how much is given and when. Is this is BAD thing for anyone to ask?
JM stated that she will go to Capitol Hill and make her case. IF she does, will everyone still chastise her for something else?
She’s a mother doing what any mother would in her position. And if her and many other mothers AND fathers like her can make a difference in REDUCING the rate of children with Autism, the more power to them.
I am a member of our local Autism chapter, as I am also an Advocate. I have worked closely with the school district in addressing the needs of children with Autism and help parents through the IEP process.
Do I have this time to spend helping others? Not really, but I do what I can, when I am not playing with my son, helping him with his home work and taking him to watch and ride trains While working 60 hours a week to pay for all of his therapies and specialists.
I have total respect for any parent of a child with a special need that does anything reasonable and safe to help their child be as happy as possible and become the best person that his/her child could ever be.
JM has a right to do what she can. What would you do if you were somebody in her position and had the means that she has? I know I would probably be doing the same.

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
13:49:36

FYI - This article is on FOXNEWS.COM today – http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298224,00.html

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
14:27:55

Well, at least more public awareness is being created, probably because of Jenny’s book & TV appearances. Mercury was proven, according to this article, to cause tics in boys. They are not sure if there is any relation to autism or not. It also states that mercury has not been in vaccines since 2001. I was told that you still have to request the vaccines w/out the thimerosal in them.

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Sullivan
September 27th, 2007
14:33:47

“Peggy”,

you need to reread the article and the actual paper. Isles did a great discussion of this:

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=655

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Sullivan
September 27th, 2007
14:39:17

It’s amazing how people only hear what they want to hear and don’t “listen” to everything that is said.
She stated quite a few times that her son is “recovering” from Autism, but will never full recover from it. Sounded like she said that he will always be a child with Autism to me, but I heard her as well as listened too.

From the transcript:

KING: Are you saying he’s not autistic anymore?

MCCARTHY: That’s right.

She also said,
But he’s no longer autistic.

It does seem like people heard what they wanted to.

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Sullivan
September 27th, 2007
14:40:30

Sorry, messed up my blockquotes…

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rhorho
September 27th, 2007
14:53:19

Your cynicism is only an automatic response to protect everything you’ve ever learned, and what government agencies want and need us to believe. Yes, there may be epidemics if we all stop vaccinating. However, some children may react negatively to the vaccines and they and their families are left to deal. At least open your mind that there may be manageable reasons and ways to manage the disease besides what modern medicine preaches. I have heard MANY mothers state that symptoms appear after the MMR. Maybe a different vaccination scehdule, not so much at once and so young could be the answer?
And WHat if your kid improved to the extent Jenny’s has thru diet and other “new age” therapies? Wouldn’t you try it?
If data was collected on autistic children as to whether they had been vaccinated and with what we may get an answer to this question. But the Drs. dont want to know. Just open your mind!

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Ruth
September 27th, 2007
15:11:35

rhorho-

I prefer to deal with reality. The fact is that without Rhogam, 2 of my 3 kids would not have lived to be autistic or not. The new age treatments work NO BETTER than placebo. If many of us have seen great improvement in our kids without the new age crap, would you accept that as proof?

I wonder if you would so calmly accept epidemics coming back if you had to watch a child cough to death? The very success of vaccines allows ignorant fools to ignore reality.

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
15:15:35

Okay, Sullivan – Here’s a question that needs to be concluded:

Could this study suggest that if the mother’s mercury level is higher while pregnant, the shots send the kids over the edge? Because this is what the FOXNEWS.COM http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298224,00.html
article says….

“On balance, researchers did not find a consistent pattern between increasing thimerosal exposure and the risk of these problems. However, they said one finding merited further study: Boys exposed to higher mercury levels seemed to have more tic problems — a link seen in previous research.

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Gonzo
September 27th, 2007
15:18:34

My mind is open. But it’s also realistic and doesn’t react irrationally on emotion.

But I’m not going to run out and put an IV into my kid to “cleanse the toxins” or put him on a diet to “remove the plaque that casein leaves on the brain” as I’ve seen mentioned around the Internet.

Ask yourself this – before you found out that your kid was autistic, would you have done this stuff to them? Would you even subject yourself to these “treatments”? But now that they have been diagnosed, you would? What changed? Desperation?

Yes. Desperation makes us do stupid things. It happens every day.

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HN
September 27th, 2007
15:21:10

rhoho said “Just open your mind!”

I am willing to look at real evidence. My mind is open to actual documented evidence.

Is yours?

Do you care or know about the dozens of studies done in several countries that show no association between vaccines and autism?

Do you care or know that the doctor who pointed a finger at the MMR vaccine was paid by a lawyer to do that “research” on children that were clients of the lawyer… and that the doctor used faulty data?

Why is it that the ONE paper blaming MMR for autism and gastrointestinal problem that used only 12 children, and was a product of fraud has more validity than all the studies done in half a dozen countries using several hundred thousand children?

Is you mind open enough to accept reality?

Do you know or care that the actual diseases are making a comeback and causing more disabilites and sometimes death? Just last summer four people became deaf and several other suffered meningitis and encephalitis due to an outbreak of mumps:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/previe.....d518a1.htm

Do you care or know that several studies have been done on special diets, and some work and some don’t… but it has been done?

In one practice near London there have been several dozen cases of measles, with TEN children being admitted to the hospital. From personal experience I know that a kid in a hospital for a week costs about the same as 5000 MMR vaccines (baby spend 1 week in hospital, it was about $10000 a bit over 19 years ago)... Is you mind open enough to realize that disease PREVENTION may be cheaper and does not provide more income for “Big Pharma”?

How about you open your mind to the scientific method of looking at ALL the data, cross checking the evidence and looking history?

Or are you going to be closed minded and claim it is all a conspiracy of several countries and the pharmaceutical companies?

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Sullivan
September 27th, 2007
15:44:06

Peggy,

checking the actual study,

Increasing exposure to mercury was associated with a greater likelihood of tics in one HMO population and language delay in another; in the third HMO, no significant associations were found.

So, in one of three groups there was possibly an increased number of tics.

I would agree with the statement in the paper:

The replication of the findings regarding tics suggests the potential need for further studies.

But also,

The overall pattern of results suggests that the significant associations may have been chance findings stemming from the large number of statistical tests that we performed.

If you work on a 95% confidence level and test 42 things, you can expect 2 to show “statistically significant” results.

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
15:51:55

HN, do you know where a person could find information on studies done to prove what does cause these disorders? Because it seems like most of the ones mentioned “rule out” the fact that vaccines do long term harm (besides causing death) to infants. However, variables can be left out of the scenerio, such as prenatal mercury exposure in combination with the vaccines. Do you know if they have factored this into their “disproving” studies? I think most people do have an open mind about it, they just want the situation of rising incidents of these disorders to be resolved, & for conclusions to made as to the “why’s” —not just the “why nots” This is what makes people suspicious of the powers that be….the fact that not everything that CAN BE DONE to find this out, IS being done!

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Cher
September 27th, 2007
16:22:22

Wow—”subjecting” your kid to treatment—as apposed to “subjecting” them to what? an unknown but potentially harmful and increasingly suspect source?
Here’s a great book for you all—“How to raise a healthy child in spite of your doctor”
Hell, HN can laugh themself silly with that one.
A closed mind is a death trap. What’s your stake in protecting or defending an organization that says there is no known cause and no known cure?
Doesn’t that inspire anything in you?
I think it is safe to say that this forum is not the place for reason.

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Sonny
September 27th, 2007
16:52:31

Peggy, there are plenty of studies looking at causes of autism. I am sure that one of the more knowledgeable people on this board can point you to some of them. It’s a complicated issue and there are many avenues to go down.

What you seem to want, however, is study after study after study on vaccines. Not a great use of research dollars.

Everyone wants answers, but no amount of data is going to shake the true believers who are desperately invested in the autism = mercury poisoning hypothesis.

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Tina
September 27th, 2007
16:56:06

The mere fact that my son was showing signs of an Autism spectrum disorder (PDD-NOS) way prior to the MMR is truth to me that the MMR was NOT the cause of this. And, did Jenny not mention that her son was showing signs of not being affectionate (and other signs she saw in hind site that she did not want to see) BEFORE the MMR?

We have so, so many cases of boys in my family with ADHD, bipolar disorder, other emotional issues, that I feel THIS area is being highly overlooked as a possible cause.

Jenni DID bring Autism to the Oprah arena when other “average Joe’s” have not been able to. So, at least we can say is that her appearance has at least brought Autism out of the closet more.

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JoAnn
September 27th, 2007
17:07:18

My 11 yo daughter and I watched the Oprah show with Jenny. It did catch my interest to see what she had to write about and I did buy the book. I was blessed with a child that does not have autism, but has struggled over the past few years with a hereditary blood disease and complications from it. Her heart and mind want so much to help children. She has shown a huge interest in getting involved with autism and learning more about it. We will be participating in the Walk Now for Autism, as well as other fundraises.
Well, back to the book. I am a RN and have been for 10 years. I have to say that as a nurse, I was not supportive of the behavior that Jenny speaks of that she had at the hospitals. However, as a mother, I completely understand and have/would probably have “some” similar reactions (she is a bit more foul-mouthed than need be with people). As I read the book, I had my ups & downs of feelings toward her writing the book and the story it was portraying. Then I got to the top of page 127, it reads “It was then time to give Jake his hepatitis C vaccine.”...Bummer Jenny, Dr. Feinberg, the publishers and anyone else that proof-read it – there is no hep C vaccine.
Perhaps Jenny had taken one of her “legal narcotics” when she wrote that paragraph. She mentions that line a few times in her book.
I hope and look forward to the day there is a reason found behind autism and that a cure is soon to be discovered.
Everyone needs to keep supporting in everyway they can. Oh, did proceeds of her book go to help autism?

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
17:21:18

Sonny, in response to your comment…”Everyone wants answers, but no amount of data is going to shake the true believers who are desperately invested in the autism = mercury poisoning hypothesis.”

YES! “Study after study” needs to be done, research dollars – money – needs to be raised – and independent studies done….whatever…. until they find the cause of these things. There is an actual reason why the numbers of cases are rising. When that CAUSE or cause(s) are found, individuals can draw their conclusions, based on that. And, protecting the health and well being of helpless children is never a waste of “research dollars.”

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Sonny
September 27th, 2007
18:04:45

I never said we shouldn’t continue to look for a cause. I said we should not keep shaking the mercury tree, hoping something will finally fall out.

Where should we look beyond vaccines?

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Kev
September 27th, 2007
18:11:18

Cher – who meets your paycheck? The Alternative medicine movement is worth several billion dollars per year – are you a small pharma shill?

This is nothing to do with closed minds. Its to do with decent science. Decent science is:

a) Transparent
b) replicable
c) peer reviewed
d) published in a decent journal
e) takes stringent steps to be conducted as ethically as possible

The quackery you promote has not met any of these criteria and thus is utterly useless in helping autistic people. Its sole use is to give scum bags a reason to sell snake oil to desperate parents who don’t know where to turn.

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Cher
September 27th, 2007
18:38:46

I am not a scum bag and I do not sell snake oil and your anger and resentment and badge of pure science is shameful. Where is the divine source in your being? certainly not in your heart, and most definitely not in your intelligence. I will hold the space that your intellect finds it’s way back to your heart and your higher self. There needs to be a healing between both sides of the war (how sad is that) so that theory, studies, success stories, common sense, etc. can bring about a “cure”. It is why I work with MD’s, PHD’s, DCs, and many other decent people and why they love working with me.

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Gonzo
September 27th, 2007
18:47:59

Yeah, Kev. Where’s your divine source? Where’s your inner light? Obviously your aura is just pure black. Why don’t you find yourself an Indigo child, light some incense and pray to the divine source for some kind of healing in your heart?

[/sarcasm]

Thanks for a really awesome laugh, Cher. That was frickin’ hilarious! Best I’ve had all day! Priceless!

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mommy~dearest
September 27th, 2007
18:51:02

applause Well stated post.

I just finished an entry on my own blog about her book. It was given to me this past weekend- if anyone would like to read it, don’t waste your money, I’ll mail it to you.

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
18:56:36

I am not a scientist, but common sense says don’t rule anything out. Isn’t that what scientists and medical science and research are there for? To find out what “trees” need to be shaken? Sometimes it’s when one tree bumps into another one, that an adverse result occurs. But you don’t just stand at the bottom of one or the other tree, and say, “it has nothing to do with this tree!” (The other tree possibly might be mercury…we don’t know…Though it may be something else.) If you do that, the chain of events that leads to the illness could never be discovered.

When children have reactions – their parents are the only ones who are there to witness this. To them, the reactions are seemingly tied to the vaccinations, since the downfall happens soon after receiving a vaccination, when they then have symptoms of autism, or another biologically based disabling behavioral disorder…

How can we logically discount their testimonies?

It might very well be a suppressed immune system – followed by a virus – that causes a Does anyone know if tests have been done on autistic children to determine if their immune systems are compromised in some way? Before or after the vaccinations?

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Cher
September 27th, 2007
18:57:37

The next time you hear from me will be when I do receive my noble prize and I bring these knee slapping, illuminating, mind expanding comments from the left brain right brain no brain crew!! Enjoy your laughs and continue to suffer in all that it masks.

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
19:06:54

In my last comment, I meant to say, “It might very well be a suppressed immune system – followed by a virus – that causes the reactions to the vaccines.

Does anyone know if tests have been done on autistic children to determine if their immune systems are compromised in some way? Before or after the vaccinations?

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Steve D
September 27th, 2007
20:19:43

Peggy – Your questions are valid, but indicate that you are somewhat new to this ongoing debate.

When it was originally postulated that wether mercury in vaccines or the MMR vaccine (which has no mercury) causes autism, there was every reason to explore the possibility.
Now, over 10 years later, after the idea has been reviewed and examined and tested and debated and discussed and studied, there is still NO evidence of any link whatsoever between vaccnies and autism. None.
At some point, and we are way past that point in this debate, it becomes irresponsible to continue to funnel valuable research dollars and man-hours into what is obviously a filed hypothesis. That’s not to say other causes should not be looked at, and they are, with much more promise of answering the questions everyone has. Some causes of autism are known already.

Another valuable aspect of scientific method is its requirement that we examine alternative explanations. You said, referring to anecdotal reports of regressive autism occurring soon after vaccines are given, “How can we logically discount their testimonies?” In the case of anecdotal reports of regressive autism occurring “soon after” a vaccine, numerous viable alternative explanations exist. And after 10 years of researching vaccine/autism correltaion, all of them appear to have more validity than vaccines actually causing autism.

So, to further your analogy of shaking trees, I would submit that to stand beneath the same tree interminably, even though nothing has ever fallen out of it (by itself or in combination with other tree-shaking), is just plain dumb.

Does that help you to understand the issue at all?

Also, yes, lots of research has been done on immune systems of autsitic people. Some notable differences seem to be present. Still no link to vaccines, though.

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culvercitycynic
September 27th, 2007
20:27:32

“I am not a scientist [....] To find out what “trees” need to be shaken? Sometimes it’s when one tree bumps into another one, that an adverse result occurs. But you don’t just stand at the bottom of one or the other tree, and say, “it has nothing to do with this tree!””

really love your peaches
wanna shake your tree

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Bink
September 27th, 2007
20:44:06

God, this “medical intuitive” has made my day. Does she take intuitive payments?

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46692

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Bo Knows
September 27th, 2007
21:17:39

Holy sh*t this thread is hilarious.

I do think I should point out that Sonny Bono really knows how to shake a tree. Trembling Aspen, if I’m not mistaken.

Cher,
I applaud your Noble pursuit but just remember, “It’s not all downhill from here. There may be a few bumps along the way.”

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HN
September 27th, 2007
21:51:51

Peggy said “HN, do you know where a person could find information on studies done to prove what does cause these disorders? ”

First learn how to use http://www.pubmed.gov . That is an index of medical journals from around the world. Sometimes you will be able to get a link to a full paper online (the Pediatrics journal does have several full papers online for free). If you do find a paper that is not available for free online, then go to a local library to see if they subscribe to the journal service to provide you with the full paper. Some municipal libraries have that service, and so do most college libraries.

Another option is to check the organization that deals with a certain disability. For instance, since my son had seizures I availed myself of the information, including lists of research of the Epilepsy Foundation of America, http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/ .

There are other organizations on disabilities, and you can find their websited, information on the disabilities and links to clinical studies at Medlineplus… That is where I started when my son was diagnosed with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. I am at my two link limit, but I will tell you it is “medlineplus DOT gov”

The interesting thing about scientific studies is that a GOOD scientist is willing to be proven wrong. The papers in these journals are often submitted to a review process and the authors need to defend their findings. Sometimes they find new things, or other times they find they were completely wrong. Science is not done in a vacuum.

I just finished reading Rethinking Thin by Gina Kolata. That has several examples where researchers thought they found a good way to control weight, only to find it was a total failure in practice.

While I do not earn money from any pharmaceutical company, neither do I earn money from a book seller… I do have a list of books that show how science works or does not work (I am a big fan of libraries, presently I have sitting in front of me my library’s copy of This is Your Brain on Music by Daniel Levitin):

The Emperor of Scent by Chandler Burr
Flu by Gina Kolata
The Great Influenza by John Barry
Postcards from the Brain Museum by Brian Burrell
Vaccine by Arthur Allen
Vaccinated by Paul Offit
Polio, An American Story by David M. Oshinsky

Even though you are not a scientist, these are very entertaining reading. The John Barry book gets a bit bogged down, but I found it easier if you read Kolata’s book on the same subject first (it includes a retired scientist paying his own way to dig into tundra to retrieve samples of the 1918 flu virus!). Even though I get ill while reading on the bus, I was so much into Offit’s biography of Maurice Hilleman that I could not stop reading even after boarding the bus!

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HN
September 27th, 2007
22:10:19

Oh boy, I missed this (something possibly with revelation that aluminum is a “heavy” metal), Cher said “Mercury is a known neurotoxin,
you don’t have to be rocket scientist to know that. And, there are no safe levels considered for that heavy metal.
You’ll be happy to hear about the study that came out a few weeks ago that said that people who had gotten three flu vaccines three years in a row had a significant increase in alzeimers.”

Isn’t it convenient that I used to be a rocket scientist? Yep, that is true, before the birth of my disabled son I was an aerospace engineer and even worked on analyzing rocket noise.

Now here you go, claiming to say there is a study that shows the flu vaccine increases Alzheimers. Care to tell what it is? Title? Author? Journal? Date?

Is it with the papers that refute this study:
http://www.chspr.ubc.ca/node/361 ?

Or with the papers that explain how removing thimerosal from pediatric vaccines

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
22:11:09

Thanks for your answer, Steve.

Okay – The final closing *question I have, since this blog has been turned into a bit of a circus—if anyone could answer it without being obnoxious… Is this – Could it be that
IF, since the immune systems are different, as you said – as it was proven, that autistic kids immune systems vary from non autistic….

*THEN, why wouldn’t it be probable that injecting antibodies to 32 viruses – sometimes 3 types at a time – into THOSE kid’s (the pre-disposed kids with the different immune system) – is sending their little bodies over the edge, into autism, or whatever other disorder?

I am sorry, but this just doesn’t seem like rocket science to me. If the research dollars end up proving that it does more harm than good to inject THIRTY-TWO virus antibodies into babies before they’re 3 – Then there wouldn’t be as many research dollars to make the poisonous cocktail vaccine shots anymore. Because guess what – people will avoid them like the plague. Even if there’s only a small chance that each child has, percentage wise, of their entire lives going awry….due to vaccines. Even if there is supposedly a “greater good” in making everyone take them.

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HN
September 27th, 2007
22:12:45

Stupid computer published my comment prematurely…

What papers show a conclusive link between thimerosal in vaccines and autism? Why is it that even several years AFTER thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines that autism still goes up?

Oh, and what causes more seizures… pertussis or the DTaP?

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Peggy
September 27th, 2007
22:22:31

Thanks for the book list, HN. I appreciate your insights, as well. I just have a hard time reading non conclusive evidence. I want to know what DOES cause these problems. Because at this point, I am tempted to avoid getting any kids I may have at some time, vaccinated, at all. Vaccines may be innocent until proven guilty, as far as science goes, but sometimes, you have to go with what your gut says.

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Kassiane
September 27th, 2007
22:26:10

MY gut says that having mumps and whooping cough, IN SPITE OF being fully vaccinated (you do know they don’t take for everyone, right?) sucked a HELL of a lot more than being autistic and epileptic. I’m both.

Kev did a video once of the diseases that are coming back because of the mothers on a mission for hysteria. I think it should be required viewing for anyone who thinks vaccines are going to eat their baby.

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HN
September 27th, 2007
22:28:41

Peggy said “I am sorry, but this just doesn’t seem like rocket science to me. If the research dollars end up proving that it does more harm than good to inject THIRTY-TWO virus antibodies into babies before they’re 3 – Then there wouldn’t be as many research dollars to make the poisonous cocktail vaccine shots anymore. ”

I really love it when the “rocket scientist” bit comes up… because I used to be one!

Okay, I showed you where to look at the actual research. It does exist. Vaccines are not cooked up and then used without research. _Vaccinated, the biography of Maurice Hilleman by Paul Offit, goes into great detail on how vaccines are created and tested. I would suggest that you check your local library for it.

So go to the resources I gave you… and come back with an answer to this question:

What vaccine in the present pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the disease?

If your answer is the MMR (which never contained thimerosal)... then show the PubMed links to prove it. Show how the MMR causes more encephalitis than measles, or more deafness than mumps. List the paper.

If your answer is DTaP… show us that the vaccine causes more seizures than pertussis, or more death than tetanus or diphtheria. The studies have been done… find them.

The link you give should look something like this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/si.....h=16865547

Here is a whole list of papers on the research between vaccines and autism (not updated with the stuff just released this week in the New England Journal of Medicine):
http://www.immunize.org/autism/

Now tell us which ones are wrong and why, with documentation.

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HN
September 27th, 2007
22:35:57

Peggy: ” I want to know what DOES cause these problems. ”

The research is pointing to genetics. Something that is already in the chromosomes that you and the father would provide to the child.

The same reason that my kid has migraines (which is related to the seizures, see Oliver Sacks’ book Migraine) and hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

If you skip vaccines for your children… be very very sure that they do not come in contact with any other children while herd immunity is being eroded. Because the diseases are coming back, and they still disable and kill.

Two articles you need to read:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/previe.....d518a1.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t.....055533.ece

Come back with the answers to my questions, and why you think it is a good idea to risk the actual diseases.

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culvercitycynic
September 27th, 2007
22:38:35

Cher says she’ll be receiving a “_noble_ prize”. This may be so … but it is not to be confused with the Nobel Peace Prize.

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Gonzo
September 28th, 2007
02:31:40

The next time you hear from me will be when I do receive my noble prize

BAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA

Oh dear. I seem to have spewed coffee all over my computer screen from laughing so hard. I really should try not to have any liquids in my mouth next time I’m reading these comments.

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Wow! Thanks, Jenny! « MommyHood - The Adventures of Kim and Alex
September 28th, 2007
02:52:09

[...] Left Brain/Right Brain [...]

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666sigma
September 28th, 2007
10:20:37

You have thousands of Mothers telling you that vaccines have damaged their children. You have thousands of parents telling you that the GFCF diet has helped their child. The “scientists” say no.

But what proof have they offered?

There is no doubt that diary products have a negative effect on my child. We gave my son ice cream twice in the last month. Both times, he was bouncing off the wall the next day – stims, lack of focus, etc. We have done this several times in the past, each time we have seen the same result.

You can mock the GFCF diet all you want, but it looks very real to me. It appears to look very real to thousands of parents.

So who do you think is right?

My guess is that parents know a lot more about what is happening to their kids than the scientists give them credit for. You don’t have to agree, but there is no harm in trying.

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Joseph
September 28th, 2007
12:26:05

But what proof have they offered?

Testimonials and anecdotes are not data, so there’s no need to counter with proof. The burden of proof is obviously on those making the claim, not on those doubting it. Even so, like I noted, there’s a small double-blind study on GFCF. A double-blind study, however small, obviously trumps anecdotal evidence.

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666sigma
September 29th, 2007
00:54:40

“The burden of proof is obviously on those making the claim . . .”

What you mean is “The burden of proof FOR ME is obviously on those making the claim . . .”

You don’t have to believe. That is your right. My experience says otherwise and I would invited any serious scientist to examine my child’s reaction to casein. I have all the proof I need.

The developmental neurologist that removed the diagnosis from my child doesn’t believe in bio-med, but told us to keep doing whatever we are doing because it is working.

One thing the scientists wlll tell you is that your digestive tract was never intended to consume cow’s milk or processed grains. That’s a fact. So cutting out these foods can only help.

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Matt
September 29th, 2007
00:56:08

“Testimonials and anecdotes are not data, so there’s no need to counter with proof. The burden of proof is obviously on those making the claim, not on those doubting it”

My “mommy instinct” tells me to avoid HBOT, B-12 injections, chelation…

Why do people feel the need to try to counter that with crappy, half-baked “data”?

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Gonzo
September 29th, 2007
03:48:47

We should also cut out chocolate. We clearly weren’t meant to eat that tropical food either.

Uh….

Wait…

Oh crap. Never mind.

Gonzo grabs the nearest chocolate bar

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mikki
October 2nd, 2007
20:44:11

Matt” My “mommy instinct” tells me to avoid HBOT, B-12 injections, chelation…”

I love it!

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Sullivan
October 3rd, 2007
05:26:09

“After Jenny…”

As in, already off the first page of news.google.com search for autism.

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culvercitycynic
October 3rd, 2007
23:01:34

“Oprah is a human Wal-Mart, that crushes the life out of anything in her path.”

http://thefilmgeek.blogspot.co.....sucks.html

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Gypsie
October 5th, 2007
16:03:40

IDIOTS!! I know that vaccines cause autism because I have a grandchild that I saw it happen to. Great for Jenny McCarthy to give us hope. Shut up about what you know NOTHING about.

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Kev
October 5th, 2007
16:23:06

Gypsie: Shhhh, you’re making an ass of yourself in public :o)

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HN
October 5th, 2007
16:23:23

Gypsie…

Pot, meet kettle.

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Gonzo
October 5th, 2007
17:11:34

Oh yeah. Jenny gave us hope alright.

Hope in the stupidity of mankind and something to laugh at.

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Joseph
October 5th, 2007
17:58:18

Don’t you love arguments like Gypsie’s? You guys know nothing. I know the truth! I’m armed with testimonials and anecdotes! Data? What’s that?

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happynurse
October 7th, 2007
05:28:19

I was terribly disappointed in the interview with Jenny McCarthy!
The whole business with Indigo children, vaccinations, DAN Dr’s totally turned me off to Jenny, so not credible as a resource for Autism. I did like Holly Robinson Peete tho!

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