A few months ago, Abubakar Tariq Nadama, a 5 year old autistic boy died at the office of Dr Roy Kerry after undergoing IV EDTA chelation therapy. I wrote about it extensively at the time, as did Autism Diva and Orac.
Today, the coroners report has come in:
In layman’s terms, the administration of ethylene diamine tetra-acetate, commonly known as chelation, resulted in a lack of oxygen to the brain as well as irreversible heart damage, said Allegheny County Deputy Coroner Ed Strimlan.
We determined there’s a direct correlation between the EDTA and the lack of oxygen to the brain and the heart muscle damage. It’s a total package, based on the autopsy, the histology [tissue sampling] and the toxicology [blood sampling],” Mr. Strimlan said.
At the time, anti-vaxxers, anti-thiomersalers and pro-chelators said we should wait for the results of the report before issuing judgment. However, they failed to extend that same criteria to Dr Rashid Buttar who decided to include EDTA in his new treatment protocol. Dr Buttar is frequently described as a hero amongst the anti-vac’s, anti-thiomersal and pro-chelators and yet they seem strangely reluctant to comment on the efficacy and/or safety of his new protocol. I have repeatedly asked commenter’s to this site the following question:
Given that we don’t know the exact role that IV EDTA played in young Tariq’s death, on what level is it a good idea for Rashid Buttar to start using it in a new protocol?
I have never received an answer to this question. The question has been shirked by at least four separate comments on approximately 6 separate occasions.
Now, of course, we _do_ know that EDTA has ‘a direct correlation’ to the lack of oxygen and heart muscle damage that poor Tariq sustained and which killed him. And still no one is prepared to stand up from the pro-chelationist side and state they think Buttar is being (once again) dangerously irresponsible. He (Buttar) has a reputation as a forceful man – a bit like a bull in a china shop. As we know from recent experience from another man with a similar reputation – such people seldom stop to look before they leap. So convinced they are in their own ‘rightness’ they they plough ahead without pause or consideration.
Now we know for sure that Chelation did play a role in a young boys death – a boy who’s dead _solely because he was autistic_ – I invite commenter’s from an anti-vax, anti-thiomersal, pro-chelation perspective to call for investigations into Dr Roy Kerry under who’s treatment Tariq died and to call for Rashid Buttar to exercise more care.
Speaking of ‘more care’ and ‘looking before one leaps’, yet another anti-thiomersal activist, Dan Olmsted, recently wrote a column lauding Gold salts as a potential chelator of mercury. It seemed he was inundated with emails from scientists expressing grave concern. So much so that he wrote an obviously unplanned and somewhat panicky reaction piece which included the line:
Clearly, given the serious risks, figuring this out is a job best left to the experts.
What a stunning piece of ‘shutting the barn door after horse has bolted’ syndrome. You’re absolutely right Mr Olmsted, this _is_ a case best left to experts. And yet you didn’t let that stop you in any of your previous pieces. Lets hope that no one read your first piece without reading your second one. Lets hope they didn’t go out and pump their kids full of Gold salts and lets hope that no one gets hurt.
Roy Kerry, Rashid Buttar, Dan Olmsted – next time , look before you leap.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Kevin, why are you harping so much on chelation when it has resulted in only a SINGLE death in its entire history…
I know a little autistic boy named Michael whose lot of Hep-B killed 64 children. (His parents researched all his vaccines lot numbers and found horrible statistics…)
I don’t hear you complaining about the much more common unsafe lot(s) of vaccines…such as the ones that injured your daughter and mine.
Your priorities are skewed. Safer vaccines should be the topic of the day, since it is a MUCH bigger problem than a single death from chelation.
_”Kevin, why are you harping so much on chelation when it has resulted in only a SINGLE death in its entire history…”_
A variety of reasons. People such as yourself go around touting it as totally safe when quite clearly it is not. More importantly, it is a totally unecessary treatment built on a fallacy that thiomersal causes autism and needs removing.
_”I know a little autistic boy named Michael whose lot of Hep-B killed 64 children. (His parents researched all his vaccines lot numbers and found horrible statistics…)”_
Thats terrible, absolutely awful. You get no argument from me that safer vaccines and ways to get them are laudable things to research. Please tell me where I’ve said otherwise.
_”I don’t hear you complaining about the much more common unsafe lot(s) of vaccines…such as the ones that injured your daughter and mine.”_
Thats because this blog is about autism Erik. Not vaccines. Vaccines are a side issue and only one that people such as yourself have connected to autism. To the vast majority of parents, researchers, teachers etc autism is unrelated to mercury.
_”Your priorities are skewed. Safer vaccines should be the topic of the day, since it is a MUCH bigger problem than a single death from chelation.”_
A child dies from a totally unecessary proceedure and you say _my_ priorities are skewed? I realise that this has come as an unpalatable and uncomfortable truth for you to face Erik but the ‘doctors’ who are treating your children are flying pretty much blind. They are using treatments that can and have resulted in serious injury and death. And these treatments have no necessity whatsoever as there is no evidence at all to indicate a causative link between mercury and autism.
More children die from car accidents than helmet-less unicycle accidents so why would anyone say that riding a unicycle without a helmet is stupid? It’s common sense that more kids die from cars so cars should be banned. Government statistics don’t matter because I don’t believe the source.
Up with unicycles and down with cars NOW!
/romulan sarcasm cloaking device disengaged
//in reality I use a car maybe 6 times a year
///oh yeah, and unicycles are pretty cool
Vaccines and autism are not separate issues. Heavy metal toxicity is a trigger for autism. And Vaccines are the vessels by which the majority of those who are autistic came to be affected.
Chelation is NOT perfectly safe and must be administered carefully. Show me where those of us who support the use of chelation for heavy metal toxicity have said otherwise? All I’m saying is that chelation has a much better track record for safety than vaccines or Bart’s example of “unicycles.” Silly man.
Erik, I love the way you state these things as if they were proven facts, when in fact they are only tenets of belief, and have barely even met the criteria for theory (if that). Heavy metal toxicity has not been established as a trigger for autism, nor has chelation been established to either ameliorate or “cure” autism. Why don’t you just admit that this is a relgion and be done with it?
Remember: denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
_”Vaccines and autism are not separate issues. Heavy metal toxicity is a trigger for autism. And Vaccines are the vessels by which the majority of those who are autistic came to be affected.”_
And your evidence of a causative link is….? We keep going round in circles. Yours is an unverified belief. Mine is scientific fact.
_”Chelation is NOT perfectly safe and must be administered carefully. Show me where those of us who support the use of chelation for heavy metal toxicity have said otherwise?”_
2. Chelation therapy is safe.
Dave wrote:
“I love the way you state these things as if they were proven facts, when in fact they are only tenets of belief, and have barely even met the criteria for theory (if that). Heavy metal toxicity has not been established as a trigger for autism, nor has chelation been established to either ameliorate or “cure†autism.”
-Dave, et all… If we take away the issue of heavy metal toxicity (for a moment) do you believe that autism can be triggered by vaccinations? In other words, Could it be the viral component? Could it be the thimerosal? Could it be the “assault” to the immune system after multiple vaccinations? Could it be a combination of these factors? If it could be any of these issues than it needs to be addressed immediately. Not in a few years. Not when it is convenient. Not when the evidence becomes more clear. I always find it shocking when I hear people say well we need to make sure that kids are properly immunized against all these diseases or else… without addressing the FACT that children can be forever damaged by an unsafe vaccinations and/or vaccination schedule. It makes it very clear that the people who say such things do not have the capability of making decisions for my child’s health or any other child’s health.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt, it’s alive and well right here.
-Sue M.
_”If we take away the issue of heavy metal toxicity (for a moment) do you believe that autism can be triggered by vaccinations? In other words, Could it be the viral component? Could it be the thimerosal? Could it be the “assault†to the immune system after multiple vaccinations? Could it be a combination of these factors? If it could be any of these issues than it needs to be addressed immediately.”_
Do you actually read what you write before hitting ‘say it?’
If we take out the toxicity argument *then there’s no need to chelate at all*.
_”without addressing the FACT that children can be forever damaged by an unsafe vaccinations and/or vaccination schedule. It makes it very clear that the people who say such things do not have the capability of making decisions for my child’s health or any other child’s health.”_
Nice strawman Sue. We talk about autism here. Not some unspecified ‘damage’. If you want to talk about unspecified damage then go to a pro-vaccine blog and talk about it there. This subject is about how Chelation killed this boy and how that stemmed from the very ‘leap before you look’ attitude that you think is laudable. Vaccines may or may not damage significant amounts of people but that doesn’t mean that chelation doesn’t either. Sooner or later you’re going to have to try and come to terms with that.
Evidence that thiomersal causes autism = 0.
Evidence that mercury causes autism = 0.
Evidence that chelation is an effective treatment for autism = 0.
Proof that chelation kills = 1.
His death was unecessary. You feel free to write him off as a casualty of your private little war but the fact that he died through a combination of ignorance and arrogance is indisputable.
Sue, if vaccines cause autism, then why are there prenatal differences?
Do vaccines travel in time?
Sotek wrote:
“Sue, if vaccines cause autism, then why are there prenatal differences”?
-Show me what you are talking about, and I will give you an opinion.
Sotek wrote:
“Do vaccines travel in time?
-I suppose that yes, in a way, they can. A mom exposed to thimerosal containing vaccines during pregnancy can pass that along to their unborn child… thereby traveling in time (so to speak).
-Sue M.
Kev wrote:
“Do you actually read what you write before hitting ‘say it?’
If we take out the toxicity argument then there’s no need to chelate at all”.
-Yes, I do actually read what I write before hitting ‘say it’. Thank you for your kind words. I can always count on you. I was curious as to Dave’s (mainly) opinion about vaccinations/autism in general. I may have missed his opinion so I thought that I could ask him. Sorry, if I deviated from your initial post.
Kev wrote:
“Nice strawman Sue. We talk about autism here”.
-Really? Interesting. It seems to me that the only posts here that people actually are interested in involve thimerosal, vaccinations, chelation, etc. You say that these topics have no connection with autism. Since that’s the case… it should be easy for you to stop blogging about them.
Kev wrote:
“You feel free to write him off as a casualty of your private little war but the fact that he died through a combination of ignorance and arrogance is indisputable”.
-The fact that you feel as if you can blog about this little boy as if you had any clue about his medical status, etc. is the epitome of ignorance and arrogance, in my opinion.
-Sue M.
Sue asked Sotek to show her what they were talking about with things visible before birth.
Here’s one starting point:
http://autismdiva.blogspot.com/2005/11/autisms.html
There are many kinds of autism that involve so-called “dysmorphic” features — physical differences that can only develop in the womb, not out of it. Some are tied to known genetic syndromes and some are just statistically correlated with autism but nobody knows quite why yet. So if these physical changes are taking place in the womb, people are asking, how can childhood vaccinations be blamed?
Hi Erik,
You said
“All I’m saying is that chelation has a much better track record for safety than vaccinesâ€.
http://photoninthedarkness.blogspot.com/2005/09/little-math-test-for-generation-rescue.html
Clone wrote:
“So did you have a clue about Abubakar Tariq Nadama’s medical status? More so than Kev or the coroner”?
-No, Clone, I don’t know anything about Tariq’s medical status. Hence, the reason why I don’t feel like I can comment on his death one way or the other.
Clone wrote:
“Everything I read from you tells me you are on a mission to convince the world that autism is caused by thimerosal which makes you an accomplice”.
-Ah, an accomplice to what?
Sue M.
_”Yes, I do actually read what I write before hitting ‘say it’. Thank you for your kind words. I can always count on you. I was curious as to Dave’s (mainly) opinion about vaccinations/autism in general. I may have missed his opinion so I thought that I could ask him. Sorry, if I deviated from your initial post.”_
Sorry, you addressed your last comment to Dave _et al_. Assuming you know what that means, I saw it as an invitation to comment further.
_”Really? Interesting. It seems to me that the only posts here that people actually are interested in involve thimerosal, vaccinations, chelation, etc. You say that these topics have no connection with autism. Since that’s the case… it should be easy for you to stop blogging about them.”_
I didn’t say they have no connection with autism, I said that the connection was made by you and people like you. And I’m sorry to disappoint you Sue but I’ll carry on blogging about medical quackery as it pertains to autism as long as I care to. I quite understand how difficult it is to mount an effective counter against factual science and hence why you have an issue with my continued blogging but thats a matter for you, not me.
_”The fact that you feel as if you can blog about this little boy as if you had any clue about his medical status, etc. is the epitome of ignorance and arrogance, in my opinion.”_
Whats to understand? He was autistic. People like you convinced his parents that was bad. People like you convinced his parents chelating him would ‘help’. Now he’s dead.
Kev wrote:
“Sorry, you addressed your last comment to Dave et al. Assuming you know what that means, I saw it as an invitation to comment further”.
-Silly, Kev. You are/were welcome to comment further. Here’s a hint, though. When you start your comments off with such responses as… “Do you actually read what you write before hitting ‘say it?’”… it sets a bad example. Who are you, the new Clone?
Kev wrote:
“And I’m sorry to disappoint you Sue but I’ll carry on blogging about medical quackery as it pertains to autism as long as I care to”.
-Good. I quite enjoy it. The more you blog about it, the sillier you will look down the road.
Kev wrote:
“I quite understand how difficult it is to mount an effective counter against factual science…”
-Of course you understand how difficult it is to mount an effective counter against factual science… you do it everyday.
Kev wrote:
“Whats to understand? He was autistic. People like you convinced his parents that was bad. People like you convinced his parents chelating him would ‘help’. Now he’s dead.
-Again, Kev… commenting on something of which you have no clue is unbecoming. Haven’t you said in the past that chelation might be a proper treatment for metal toxicity (but not for autism)? If so, do you know what Tariq’s status was in terms of tests for metal toxicity? Well, neither do I. Again, that’s why I’m not commenting further on it.
-Sue M.
England has some pretty good health services. Don’t you think that if he were lead or mercury poisoned over there (from whatever source), the mainstream UK docs would have treated him?
Seems to me that there’s plenty of conjecture and “common sense” injected into the autism/mercury theory, but speculation here is bad/wrong/misguided?
Silly Man
Well, we’ll see what Sue and Erik Nanstiel, Sally Bernard, Blaxill, and Redwood, and all their mercury mom and dad friends say if Abubakar’s parents sue Dr. Kerry, or if Kerry gets locked up for some kind of illegal level of stupidity. It’s not likely, but it just might change the tune you all are singing.
On “autism mercury” Yahoo! group, one mom said that Dr. Buttar is now “Dr. IV”, that he’s doing IV EDTA chelation now (he charges lots of money for it, too) but the little ones he treats will be safe because he’s not doing “push” like Kerry did. NEVER MIND that the kid’s parents are being lied to by the labs that give them the false impression that their kids are high in mercury.
You guys want to stand by the stinking Amy Holmes, Blaxill and Haley paper now? It’s a hysterical piece of trash. Your “evidence” is garbage. Scratch the surface of your favorite papers and the stench of garbage rises into the air.
Do you even care about how Abubakar may have suffered by being injected with stuff that hurts going in? Do you care that he died?
I don’t think so. He’s just an obstacle in your obsessive compulsive driven need to take the burden off of your own genes!
Look in the mirror. Erik, you have one great BIG head. It’s noticable a block away. Doesn’t that tell you something? You say you are “mercury toxic”– I say you are on the autism spectrum, more likely. You say you have all these close blood relatives that are geniuses in math and science, are they just mercury toxic, too? How big are their heads?
Talk about denial!
You gonna go tell them they are mercury toxic, Erik? Gonna give them Buttar’s phone number? How about Kerry’s or Anju Usmans?
Oh, by the way, Erik says his IQ is about 150. Amazing. Not so amazing for people on the autism spectrum, though. He also explains how it’s hard for him to stick with one topic for terribly long. Maybe he’ll get bored with playing Mr. Videographer to the STARS and do something that is less likely to lead to the deaths of innocent children, like Abubakar. Did you read about the little boy that Dr Miriam Jang almost killed? You all dodged a bullet back in April when he was hospitalized for liver damage caused by her prescribed overdose of vitamins for his autism. I hope Dr. Jang’s being sued for malpractice, too.
You ALL will have more blood on your hands if you don’t stop now.
Light a candle for Abubakar.
Listen — it’s the sound of cognitive dissonance.
A child has died of chelation,
Has a child ever died of autism?
Think about it, parents
Barbara said:
“A child has died of chelation,
Has a child ever died of autism?
Think about it, parents”
I think that she said it all, really…. and now I am.
MMM: “Oh, by the way, Erik says his IQ is about 150.”
Indeed. That figure is meaningless without at least the following information:
Test used; defined means and standard deviations for the verbal, non-verbal and full-scale scores; subtests (both in terms of nature of tasks and the standardisation details) and behavioural observations of how such subtests elicited their scores from Erik’s performances; SEM; validity and reliability data; demographics of the standardisation group.
If it was an internet based test… it is rather unlikely that the result is so reliable and/or valid. If it was a test administered by a psychologist, there is a hell of a lot more info in the subtest profile than in the full-scale results.
David A,
Good point. He said, on a public bulletin board, that he had taken several and they all were about 150. Maybe he’ll clarify. My main point was that he’s got a few hallmarks of being on the spectrum and that just might shed some light on his daughter’s genes. and Erik will say, yes, she would have been a little autistic anyway, but the mercury totally ruined her. And chelation is saving her, and I’m going to take her to see Dr. Megson to see if she has too much testosterone in her and then we’ll give her Lupron depot injections to get rid of mythical “sheets of testsosterone” created in the fevered brains of the Geiers.
_”Good. I quite enjoy it. The more you blog about it, the sillier you will look down the road.”_
Right. Sillier about what? Thiomersal causing autism? Oh wait – no evidence it does and yet you believe it. Maybe you mean the ‘autism epidemic’? Except, all the evidence states there isn’t one. Or maybe you mean chelation – you know, the process GR claim is safe?
I note you’ve stayed well away from the science in this thread – again. Its becoming a recurring theme in your comments Sue. Plenty of big talk about how silly we all are and nothing substantive to back up your belief system.
Heres an open invitation Sue – write a piece on the scientific validity of your beliefs, epidemic, cause, treatment – the whole thing and I’ll publish it on here exactly as you write it. Here’s your opportunity to back up your beliefs Sue – will you take it or confirm you’re exactly the sort of empty vessel making noise that I strongly suspect you are?
_”Haven’t you said in the past that chelation might be a proper treatment for metal toxicity (but not for autism)? If so, do you know what Tariq’s status was in terms of tests for metal toxicity? Well, neither do I. Again, that’s why I’m not commenting further on it.”_
Engage a bit of logic Sue. A diagnosis of metal poisoning is easy to get in the UK – if you actually *are* metal poisoned. If you just happen to be autistic you have to jet off to America to get chelated. He wasn’t being treated for anything except autism. You can attempt to wriggle out of that as much as you like but thats just the way it is.
MMM: “My main point was that he’s got a few hallmarks of being on the spectrum and that just might shed some light on his daughter’s genes. and Erik will say, yes, she would have been a little autistic anyway, but the mercury totally ruined her.”
It has been said elsewhere, actually… the EN being on the spectrum stuff, but I forget where just now… I agree with your prediction… I think that is exactly what he’ll say.
😉
MMM wrote:
“On “autism mercury†Yahoo! group…”
-Oh, so MMM you are another lurker on some biomed boards? Wonderful. So, you must now know that there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of parents who know that their children were injured by unsafe vaccinations. Nice rant by the way.
MMM wrote:
“You ALL will have more blood on your hands if you don’t stop now”.
-Comments like this from you, Kev and Clone (and others) just show your foolishness. It says less about us and says a lot more about you.
Barbara wrote:
“A child has died of chelation,
Has a child ever died of autism?
Think about it, parents”.
-Is it possible to think of the hundreds of infants who will never get a chance to live a fulfilling autistic life because they were killed or seriously maimed by vaccinations. I’m sorry, it’s reality people. What can we do about that?
Kev wrote:
“Here’s your opportunity to back up your beliefs Sue – will you take it or confirm you’re exactly the sort of empty vessel making noise that I strongly suspect you are”?
-So, because I would rather read everything that is written on your science board and not comment directly yet, makes me what, Kev? Does it make me ignorant? Does it make me unable to offer up any opinons on science? Does it make me less intelligent than the people who do comment? Does it make me scared? What exactly does it make me?
-Sue M.
Kev,
By the way, your science forum has recently turned into nothing more than commentary again. You may want to address that. Not tattling or anything but if you are going to hold it up to a “science-only” board you may want to follow through with it.
-Sue M.
I think the best thing to make of the tragedy of the child’s death and the controversy that will not seem as if it will stop about chelation, mercury, thimerasol, and vaccines, is to try to open the discussion to other biomedical and medical issues. We all know that autism parents are desperate to help their beloved children, and will take extreme measures to do so; we all also know that people in such desperation do not always size up evidence and information the best. We ought to consider other factors in the aetiology of autism that would be provide more evidence as to the benefits and harm of chelation. What about research being done on hormonal imbalances, for instance? It is that some children are born with a compromised system that responds traumatically to the chemicals used to manufacture vaccines? Such a child’s body might not respond well to a further assault of chemicals—-or those might be waht the child needs to be rid of them?
In the new year, let us push the parameters of this debate outward and onward, for our kids’ good futures.
_”So, because I would rather read everything that is written on your science board and not comment directly yet, makes me what, Kev? Does it make me ignorant? Does it make me unable to offer up any opinons on science? Does it make me less intelligent than the people who do comment? Does it make me scared? What exactly does it make me?”_
I don’t think it makes you anything except patently unable to offer a cogent scientific defence of your beliefs. It gets really pretty boring to hear you constantly say how powerful the science underpining your beliefs is and yet every time you’re challenged on it you resort to inane posturing about how silly everyone else is. Offers still open Sue. Either you’re prepared to debate the science or for your own reasons, you’re not.
_”By the way, your science forum has recently turned into nothing more than commentary again. You may want to address that. Not tattling or anything but if you are going to hold it up to a “science-only†board you may want to follow through with it.”_
Then join up and report the posts you feel are off topic. I don’t read every board by a long shot. Criticism without participation isn’t really very constructive. Join up, participate, report what you feel is against the rules.
As I said when I first started it, if it gets to big it gets to much for one person to moderate effectively. I may need to look at asking for people to help me moderate.
Kristina – you offer good points as always and I think those are good areas for discussion.
However, I personally feel duty bound to offer a riposte to the inane position offered here by anti-vaxxers and by the likes of Generation Rescue that chelation is a) an effective treatment for autism and b) safe.
There has to be accountability. A little boy has died and the only reason he has died is that he was autistic. Moving on is vital I agree but we also need to find a way not to forget the important lesson that his needless death has highlighted: that non-scientific treatment is often dangerous and those who practice it without either safety or efficacy trials are effectively treating our precious children as guinea pigs – _they have no way of knowing what the short or long terms effects are_. We cannot ever again afford to try and slide his death under the carpet as more than a few people seem to want to do.
Kev wrote:
” Either you’re prepared to debate the science or for your own reasons, you’re not”.
-If I decide that there is something that I wish to comment on, then I will do so. Thank you. I understand that the majority of what I believe to be factual and scientific does not hold up to your standards. Ok. I will accept that but it would be somewhat of a waste of my time to post about it knowing full well where it will go.
Kev wrote:
“Criticism without participation isn’t really very constructive. Join up, participate, report what you feel is against the rules”.
-Good point. Let the record show I completely agree.
Kev wrote:
“We cannot ever again afford to try and slide his death under the carpet as more than a few people seem to want to do”.
-I would like to see this death explored and analyzed and hopefully lead to better ways of treating children biomedically. Ok, there was a tragedy and a boy died. I’m not trying to minimize it… but are they also going to look at/question parents who say that their children have greatly improved by chelation? Are they going to ask the pertinent questions in regards to addressing the vaccination issue on a whole? It seems that those questions very often get swept under the carpet as well. It’s not a one way street.
-Sue M.
Hi all, I’m new to this blog – I like it. I just wanted to chime in on the subject of autism and mercury. There is no proof that mercury causes autism.
Autism is a genetic disease – there is no doubt of that. However, there is also no proof that someone who might have fallen under the Asperger’s Syndrome criteria could be negatively affected by mercury and end up as a high-functioning autistic. Mercury can cause changes in brain structure in developing rodents, thus it is possible for it to influence autism. There are researchers now looking at genetic knock-outs with and without mercury treatment to see if there is any effect. It should prove interesting.
Ms. Clark said:
“Iâ€m guessing that Wade Rankin gave up trying to defend biomed with science? Maybe he’s just busy, though.”
Actually, Ms. Clark, I have been too busy to be very visible lately. But mainly I’ve gotten a little tired of talking to people who are so sure of being right that they refuse to listen to anything. Had you ever listened to anything I say, you would have heard me saying that the science is too incomplete for anybody to say anything with any reasonable degree of certainty. Thus, there’s nothing to defend on either side. So I come here and lurk because I’m interested in what Kev has to say, but I really don’t have the inclination to throw myself to blindly ravenous wolves.
Mr. Rankin,
I’m sorry if I make you feel like you are being shredded by a wolf.
There are plenty of details in the autism biomed “science” that can be thrown in the trash, easily. Like if you or any parent are chelating your child based on the work of Dr. Holmes. if you believe that autistic children are “poor mercury excretors” you have been sold a bill of goods.
It’s not hard to disprove. Autistic kids can excrete mercury just FINE, at least all of the ones in the Holmes study did, the ones she says weren’t excretors… Sure there are details of biology that can’t be entirely perfectly absolutely proven, but some of the stuff you may believe, if you believe that vaccines cause autism, is just obviously a lie.
I and others have shown where the lies and falsehoods are. No one so far has shown how we are wrong.
it’s a lie to say that autistic kids are poor mercury excretors. It’s a lie.
There’s nothing subtle there to discuss. The falsehood was created from whole cloth.
Do we have to show respect to every fool that comes along and says something? OK, maybe we need to show respect to the mentally ill, but we don’t have to respect and follow what every fool states as a fact, do we? I will not respect the Holmes study or it’s authors. Does that make me a ravenous wolf?
I want you to see that you may be believing outright lies when you listen to the biomed parents and the doctors,
though the parents may be just innocentily repeating the lies
(or falsehoods if you want to credit the originators with being too stupid to know what they were doing)
started by the likes of Holmes, Blaxill and Haley.
It makes me angry and frustrated to see the mercury parents, get sucked into this cult and *fatten* a bunch of quacks with their money and potentially harm your kids.
There may be something good in the GFCF diet for some kids, I don’t attack that. There is some research going on in that area.
I’m angry about “RNA” drops and chelation and clay baths and toxic doses of vitamin A… have you read the Diva blog? Dr. Jang could have killed a kid last spring with too much vitamin A, and she’s still practicing the same high dose vitamin A “protocol” as far as I can tell. I’m angry about parents telling their kids that if they go in the sauna and sweat like good little kids they’ll get to be normal like little Janey across the street.
I’m mostly angry about the death of a little 5 year old boy from England and the serious poisoning of a 3 year old from Nevada by a DAN! doc.
I sure hope you aren’t giving your son huge doses of vitamin A, Mr. Rankin. I sure hope you aren’t wasting your money on magnetic clay baths, as prescribed by Dr. Jang. I sure hope you won’t get sucked into “HBOT.”
It sure would be nice to see you take a stand against these wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Ms. Clark wrote:
” Does that make me a ravenous wolf”?
-Ms. Clark, what makes you a ravenous wolf is your inablility to stay calm and focused (yes, I have that issue as well at times). You find it necessary to leap in and just rant and rave when people offer up differing opinions. As as example, here we have Robert, new to the blog, come in and offer up what I considered a reasonable idea about the autism/mercury connection and you come in with you silly rants and attempt to make him look foolish. Here’s a clue, it makes you look foolish. Why would anyone want to debate you about anything which MAY differ from your opinion, Ms. Clark?
I, for one, am very interested in the study which you have promised by Fombonne which is supposedly going to reveal how Wakefield mistakenly found the measles virus in autistic children. Any update on when that might be published?
-Sue M.
If I may go off on a bit of a tangent, there is a development in the “biomedical” treatment of autism that I find truly frightening. Dr. Boyd Haley, with the able assistance of Dan Olmsted, Senior Autism-Mercury Editor for UPI, is proposing the use of gold salts (auranofin, aurothiomalate) to treat autism. Considering the known toxicity of these compounds, I find this an ominous development.
Abubakar Tariq Nadama was killed because:
[1] His parents had been led to believe that his autism was caused by mercury (and/or lead) poisoning
[2] His parents had been led to believe that chelation would reverse or improve his autism
[3] The doctor they took him to had an irrational bias for using EDTA instead of the more modern, more effective and much more safe compound, DMSA
[4] The doctor they took him to did not know how to safely use EDTA, despite apparently having several years of experience administering the drug
The first two causes can be laid directly at the feet of those people who, despite a paucity of data supporting their position and a growing mass of data refuting it, continue to assert – loudly and vehemently – that autism is caused by mercury. In fact, many of them insist that autism IS mercury poisoning.
Now Dr. Haley and his…collaborators have decided to take this travesty of science to a new height of danger. Instead of using drugs that are either very safe (DMSA), reasonably safe (DMPS) or safe as long as they are used correctly (EDTA), they are promoting the use of drugs that are inherently dangerous.
Gold salts have been used for years – dacades, actually – and their toxicity is well known. They are used only because they can work when other, safer drugs fail. And they are only used (up until now) for disorders (e.g. rheumatoid arthritis) that are potentially lethal if not adequately treated.
If Dr. Haley’s push toward gold salts is effective – and I see no reason why it wouldn’t be, given the history to date – I predict that the first month of 2007 will see us lamenting the deaths of scores of autistic children.
Is there no way to stop the insanity?
Prometheus
Sue M,
Feel free to email Dr. Fombonne and ask him about when his paper might be published. From what I know about research, it can be painfully slow to wait for a paper to get published. But usually, it seems like by the time the scientist is speaking about it publically, it has been given a publication date… perhaps a lurking scientist who understands publishing in peer reviewed literature will explain.
You can hear him refer to his study on, I believe, the first of his two presentations at the MIND institute. They are available on the MIND’s website in streaming video form.
Ranting comes naturally to me when lives are at stake, Sue. Sorry if you think it shuts down rational discussion. Scientists need to be very calm and detached, and they have to say things like “we can not disprove…,” because they are scientists.
I’m not a scientist, but I know what some of the scientists are thinking…they are thinking,
‘you people are stark raving crazy if you think that autism is caused by mercury”…
They don’t mean to put pressure on me, but it does put pressure on me to say what they are thinking, as well as what I am thinking, and I know they are thinking it because I converse regularly with several autism researchers…. they think the whole mercury/autism thing is INSANE, but again, in public, in the press, all they can do is try to respond calmly that ‘there is not evidence….”
If you read Wakefield’s papers and the work of others who tried to find measles in the intestines, but couldn’t, you will see that there’s “no THERE there.”
Timothy Buie couldn’t find measles and he’s a fan of DAN! apparently.
I personally felt physically sick and sore for days after Abubakar died, because of his death, did any of the mercury parents feel that way? I didn’t sense that any of them did. I don’t think you care. I really, really don’t think you care that he died. I think you really don’t want to see Kerry punished for being a flaming reckless idiot.
Same for Dr. Jang. Who’s going to stop that woman from poisoning another child? Her patients must agree never to question her directions, up front. They must follow her directions – period. AND pay up front on a quarterly basis.
Do you care? I don’t think so. Does Wade Rankin care? Does Ginger care? Does Lenny care? Does Kirby care? I don’t think so. But I’m willing to stand corrected. And what about what Prometheus just described? So-stinking-what if dozens of kids get poisoned and die from gold salts? Right? So long as some quack makes his Jaguar payments.
Jump on the antivax/antimercury juggernaut and hang on, no matter who dies in the process.
Chelation is indeed a largely untested treatment, but look at all the deaths from vaccinations. Whether you believe in the vaccine-autism nexus or not- from the MMR virus or from the thimerosal, it is true that every year over 100 children are seemingly killed by vaccines in the U.S- I use seemingly because there is dissent on whether the deaths were a coincidence. Only one has been killed by chelation. However, I do see that the number of people that have been chelated is very small compared to those who have been vaccinated. Yet, there are many individual cases where an Autistic has apparently improved as a result of chelation or became Autistic as a result of vaccines, which incidently had mercury in them. It is something that should be further looked into still.
If those children who seemed to become Autistic after vaccines had tragically died instead, no doubt the thimerosal would be taken out. If Autism was a fatal disorder, no doubt chelation would be tried. But Autism luckily isn’t fatal, and so we must decide if individual incidents merit an argument that Autism is caused by vaccines or that chelation works.
How much are people willing to give in hopes of curing their Autistic child? If their child is hurt by it, there is no doubt that the parents will suffer greatly as well. If, knowing that a child has died because of chelation and that there is no solid proof that vaccines cause Autism, they chelate their child, I think that it is their personal choice and not ours to influence.
We don’t know what is right or wrong. Despite the hoards of different opinions, we can safely say that there is no commonly accepted cause or treatment for Autism. I believe that we must take an unbiased yet cautious stand on these issues.
Please do forgive me if I do not offer adequate support or do not understand what you would like to imply, but I am a child, though a sibling of an Autistic who is deeply concerned about such issues.
“…Does Wade Rankin care?”
Yes.
Robin said: “Chelation is indeed a largely untested treatment, but look at all the deaths from vaccinations. Whether you believe in the vaccine-autism nexus or not- from the MMR virus or from the thimerosal, it is true that every year over 100 children are seemingly killed by vaccines in the U.S- I use seemingly because there is dissent on whether the deaths were a coincidence. ”
Evidence? CItes, please.
Excuse me, http://www.whale.to/vaccines/deaths.html says “Officially, as compensated by the NVICP over 100 children are killed every year by vaccines in the US.”
Might I float a theory here?
I think a lot of people – parents – who are entrenched and battling this war of attrition on the subject of vaccinations, mercury, autism and the links therefrom, find it very very hard to listen to and accept changing information and new ideas. They feel secure in what they believe and challenging it upsets them.
I don’t think that this level of, erm, ‘attatchment’ to a certain idea is as widely found in other groups of parents of disabled kids – through a close friend I’ve met a lot of parents of non-verbal children with cerebral palsy.
Now, if I add to this the information that I know full well that some parents of autistic children are, through self- or full psychological diagnosis, also on the spectrum (I’m borderline HFA/Asperger, with my facility for speech pushing my psychologist to the latter, and my dad recognises in me some diagnosable traits in himself)… well, you all probably see where I am going here.
I think that’s why it’s so very hard to have an easy debate about this, really.
Not particularly trying to suggest anything about any specific person, just making inane comment here…
Robin: Don’t cite whale.to. There’s a whole lot of sheer lunacy there (look for, say, *alien implant removal*.), all of which is presented as if gospel truth. If it’s accurate, you should be able to find the evidence elsewhere.
Aside from that … how many children are there in the US, who recieve vaccines? Approximately? A hundred deaths a year is *nothing*.
How many children die a year from, say, getting stuck in a crib and suffocating? I’d be surprised if it weren’t on par with that.
Robin,
Nice to meet you.
It sounds like you are mulling these things over.
I have a comment on something that you wrote, that you can review and check for merit.
You wrote “If, knowing that a child has died because of chelation and that there is no solid proof that vaccines cause Autism, they chelate their child, I think that it is their personal choice and not ours to influence.â€
When we review a topic sometimes we find errors of science and sometimes theoretical positions that are claimed as fact. When other persons make decisions based on these or support what they have selected to do with this information, they have left accuracy behind. This sort of thing may hurt real people. This is not just a science problem, it is an ethical one.
Ignoring ethical problems when they appear (and especially when they are pointed out) is itself unethical. Doing so constitutes a failure of responsibility. What this means is that we should speak up when these conditions arise and it inevitably means that we are influencing personal choices.
When these things are pointed out it doesn’t mean “We are right you are wrong so you should do as we sayâ€, there are other possibilities.
One can debate the issue, this is totally reasonable as long as one remains logical.
One can ignore/dismiss the problem. However it is not possible to be absolved of responsibility and if someone is hurt, than a person who ignored the problem (depending on their role/job) is shown to have behaved unethically.
One can claim the party who raised the issue, is somehow morally, spiritually, or personally inferior and therefore, their arguments are flawed. However, that is not a logical or ethical argument and when it is used it harms the user, more than the person being verbally abused.
Hope that makes sense.
Robin,
I am going to agree with Sotek.
Whale.to?
Not all sources have equal validity/accuracy. Some take a lot of effort to discern the junk from the stuff with merit.
whale.to requires more than it’s fair share.
Instead check out pubmed here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi
You may find the same result; whale.to does have some links which present logical arguments, but one has to dodge the articles on how to form a proper tinfoil (not kidding).
Sotek wrote:
“A hundred deaths a year is nothing”.
-I hope that others don’t take this view. Aren’t we supposedly discussing the tragic death of a young boy via chelation. His loss of life was a tragedy (which it was) but a hundred deaths via vaccinations is nothing??
By the way, I would guess that 100 number is a huge understatement. How many kids died from vaccination reactions but they went down as SIDS or “heart defect”, etc.
-Sue M.
This made me LOL:
sucked into “HBOT.â€
You know, wail.to isn’t taken yet. Just sayin’.
I hope anyone contemplating gold salts will read what Prometheus wrote.
And I encourage everyone to go read the latest entry in Wade’s blog.
Major Miffed (anonymous for some reason) Mom said: “Look in the mirror. Erik, you have one great BIG head. It’s noticable a block away. Doesn’t that tell you something?”
Yes, it’s a reminder of the bad case of encephylitis I had as a child. Nearly killed me. Shame for you I lived, eh? Besides, the camera adds a few inches… 🙂
MMM said: “You say you are “mercury toxicâ€â€”I say you are on the autism spectrum, more likely.”
EN said: Nice… glad to be diagnosed by a fan. But, as it would happen, my own hair and fecal levels for mercury are higher than normal. I’m going to do a chelation challenge test to see if the levels go higher.
Two years ago I had my amalgams drilled out by a dentist not practiced in safe removal of amalgams. Big mistake. Developed severe GI issues immediately afterward, which lasted until last month. What fixed it? After speaking to a few toxicologists who are familiar with GI issues… I was put on a methylator (TMG) and my digestive problems cleared up within two weeks. I’m certainly suffering from toxicity issues.
MMM said: “You say you have all these close blood relatives that are geniuses in math and science, are they just mercury toxic, too? How big are their heads?”
EN replies: My paternal grandfather, my father and his brother were all extremely intelligent. My grandfather especially. None of them were autistic, or could even be considered aspergers… Only my head could be considered larger than normal. Again, it is likely the result of injury from infection.
MMM: “Talk about denial!”
I have no need to talk about denial.
MMM said: “You gonna go tell them they are mercury toxic, Erik? Gonna give them Buttar’s phone number? How about Kerry’s or Anju Usmans?”
Well, one of them is dead… (from alzheimers… which is mainly a problem with brain damage due to toxicity) and another (my uncle) discovered chelation five years ago… which has improved his health tremendously (according to him). So I don’t need to.
My father is perfectly healthy…shows no signs of being on the spectrum. Not a single “symptom” I’ve ever seen or read about. He’s extremely smart, empathetic…and not at all socially awkward. Genius does not necessarily come with being on the spectrum. That’s a myth you all like to perpetuate.
MMM said: “Oh, by the way, Erik says his IQ is about 150.”
I took a MENSA test in the eighth grade. And several online tests in recent years. In the fifth grade they wanted me to skip a year, but my parents wanted me to stay with kids my age. Which was fine with me…
MMM said: “Amazing. Not so amazing for people on the autism spectrum, though.”
Yes, I’m aware. When their brains suffer damage to areas regulating speech and socialization, etc. they tend to overdevelop other areas.
But again… that doesn’t put all smart folk on the spectrum. You can grow neurons and make lots and lots of good ol’ synaptic connections in any area of the brain you use often enough… without having to have damaged other areas, first. You ever see cross sections of donated autistic brains? LOTS of damaged areas. Researchers at Johns Hopkins did some nifty work in that area…
MMM said: “He also explains how it’s hard for him to stick with one topic for terribly long.”
I get bored as soon as I’ve become proficient in something for which I have no real motivation to continue doing. Many intellectual curiosities… but few of them become passions. Sue me.
MMM said: “Maybe he’ll get bored with playing Mr. Videographer to the STARS and do something that is less likely to lead to the deaths of innocent children, like Abubakar.
The boy you mention is the only chelation death in its history since being approved by the FDA. Much better track record than VIOXX…or even vaccines.
But no, I won’t get tired of promoting these researchers work. EVER. So get used to me. 2006 is going to be a VERY big year for FAIR Autism Media. I really can’t wait to show you why… (snickers)
MMM said: “Did you read about the little boy that Dr Miriam Jang almost killed? You all dodged a bullet back in April when he was hospitalized for liver damage caused by her prescribed overdose of vitamins for his autism. I hope Dr. Jang’s being sued for malpractice, too.”
Hey, all doctors have to be careful. And when it comes to prescribing supplements…it needs to be done with the greatest of care. Each child should be tested for their particular needs. My own daughter is tested repeatedly to track her biomedical progress. She used to be high in copper, low in zinc, etc. and off the charts with mercury, aluminum and to a lesser extent, lead. But now…her mineral profiles are nearly NORMAL and she’s making wonderful gains. No thanks to any of you… but to the DAN doctors.
We’re helping parents help their kids. Every time we do a conference, we’re approached by folks who know us from the website… and they thank us. Lots of them do. And what kind of stories do they all have to share? Successes with their children’s development.
Now, go be miffed about that, why don’t you?
“But no, I won’t get tired of promoting these researchers work. EVER. So get used to me. 2006 is going to be a VERY big year for FAIR Autism Media. I really can’t wait to show you why… (snickers)”
Dude, you’re being sponsored now?
g’nite all.
Sue: One hundred deaths out of several MILLION *is* nothing.
One death out of a few thousand is a hell of a lot more.
Percentages, you know.
If we chelated as many children as we vaccinate, chelation would kill a whole hell of a lot more.
Plus, of course, if we didn’t vaccinate, we’d still be getting smallpox and polio and the like, and compared to the death/crippling tolls THOSE have, that hundred or so deaths is DEFINITELY nothing.
Or are you going to trot out the claim that since antibiotics and other forms of “allopathic” medicine had been reducing the death rate, it’s okay, because polio certainly never, say, paralyzed someone, right?
_”But no, I won’t get tired of promoting these researchers work. EVER. So get used to me. 2006 is going to be a VERY big year for FAIR Autism Media. I really can’t wait to show you why… (snickers)”_
Not again.
You used to come on here and ‘snicker’ about how great your scientific evidence is – until you were asked to back it up.
Next you waxed rhetorical about how no one from your side claimed chelation was safe – until I proved you wrong.
You are one of the four commenters I mention who continue to ignore both my questions about what Buttar is doing with EDTA and my questions about David Kirbys take on the ‘severe blow’ the autism/thiomersal hypothesis has taken.
So you’ll forgive me if I’m not terribly impressed with more vague waffle. I realise its your stock-in-trade but just like Sue – its time for you to put up or shut up.