Chelation Death: The Coroner Speaks (subtitled: Look Before You Leap)

6 Jan

A few months ago, Abubakar Tariq Nadama, a 5 year old autistic boy died at the office of Dr Roy Kerry after undergoing IV EDTA chelation therapy. I wrote about it extensively at the time, as did Autism Diva and Orac.

Today, the coroners report has come in:

In layman’s terms, the administration of ethylene diamine tetra-acetate, commonly known as chelation, resulted in a lack of oxygen to the brain as well as irreversible heart damage, said Allegheny County Deputy Coroner Ed Strimlan.

We determined there’s a direct correlation between the EDTA and the lack of oxygen to the brain and the heart muscle damage. It’s a total package, based on the autopsy, the histology [tissue sampling] and the toxicology [blood sampling],” Mr. Strimlan said.

Source.

At the time, anti-vaxxers, anti-thiomersalers and pro-chelators said we should wait for the results of the report before issuing judgment. However, they failed to extend that same criteria to Dr Rashid Buttar who decided to include EDTA in his new treatment protocol. Dr Buttar is frequently described as a hero amongst the anti-vac’s, anti-thiomersal and pro-chelators and yet they seem strangely reluctant to comment on the efficacy and/or safety of his new protocol. I have repeatedly asked commenter’s to this site the following question:

Given that we don’t know the exact role that IV EDTA played in young Tariq’s death, on what level is it a good idea for Rashid Buttar to start using it in a new protocol?

I have never received an answer to this question. The question has been shirked by at least four separate comments on approximately 6 separate occasions.

Now, of course, we _do_ know that EDTA has ‘a direct correlation’ to the lack of oxygen and heart muscle damage that poor Tariq sustained and which killed him. And still no one is prepared to stand up from the pro-chelationist side and state they think Buttar is being (once again) dangerously irresponsible. He (Buttar) has a reputation as a forceful man – a bit like a bull in a china shop. As we know from recent experience from another man with a similar reputation – such people seldom stop to look before they leap. So convinced they are in their own ‘rightness’ they they plough ahead without pause or consideration.

Now we know for sure that Chelation did play a role in a young boys death – a boy who’s dead _solely because he was autistic_ – I invite commenter’s from an anti-vax, anti-thiomersal, pro-chelation perspective to call for investigations into Dr Roy Kerry under who’s treatment Tariq died and to call for Rashid Buttar to exercise more care.

Speaking of ‘more care’ and ‘looking before one leaps’, yet another anti-thiomersal activist, Dan Olmsted, recently wrote a column lauding Gold salts as a potential chelator of mercury. It seemed he was inundated with emails from scientists expressing grave concern. So much so that he wrote an obviously unplanned and somewhat panicky reaction piece which included the line:

Clearly, given the serious risks, figuring this out is a job best left to the experts.

What a stunning piece of ‘shutting the barn door after horse has bolted’ syndrome. You’re absolutely right Mr Olmsted, this _is_ a case best left to experts. And yet you didn’t let that stop you in any of your previous pieces. Lets hope that no one read your first piece without reading your second one. Lets hope they didn’t go out and pump their kids full of Gold salts and lets hope that no one gets hurt.

Roy Kerry, Rashid Buttar, Dan Olmsted – next time , look before you leap.

150 Responses to “Chelation Death: The Coroner Speaks (subtitled: Look Before You Leap)”

  1. MW January 9, 2006 at 10:01 #

    All medicine is fundamentally a risk-benefit analysis. And people in general are crap at risk analysis (that’s not aimed at anyone, just as a species we’re bad at it). Just think of fear of flying versus the reality of the dangers. Immunisations are not without their risks; however, for most people the benefits outweigh the risks. If the immunisation level is above a critical point (I can’t remember the percentage – high 80s or 90s) then ‘herd immunity’ can protect those who aren’t immunised. So the anti-vaxxers at the moment are reaping the benefits of other people having their children immunised. But this can only continue for so long;
    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=720&Pos=2&ColRank=2&Rank=768

    There are children who have adverse reactions to immunisations. But as a society we seem to have forgotten how bad these diseases that we’re immunising against are.

  2. Ms. Clark January 9, 2006 at 10:23 #

    Erik’s waffling (bluffing) about the Vargas study, I’m pretty sure, when he said something about cross sections of donated brains.

    Vargas made a point of specifically telling ol’ JB Handley’s GR that her paper said NOTHING about autism or the inflammation she saw being caused by mercury. She’s not even sure if what she saw was a bad thing, as I understand it.

    Looks like Martha Herbert doesn’t think mercury causes autism, either. Or Newshaffer. Or Jyonouchi.

    The baby hair studies prove nothing, the Hornig mouse paper is worthless. What do you have left?

    There’s nothing you have left that stands up to scrutiny.

    If the MIND institute takes a stand against the epidemic that they have promoted, if all the scientists take a stand, as many are now, against the epidemic…

    what do you have left? There’s no more reason to implicate vaccines than there is to implicate pesticides.

    Nice try, Erik, but even with your cartoon you have nothing in real science. Nice to hear about that sponsorship, too.

    Can’t wait to see your cartoon version of neuroscience. I bet UCD will want to show it to all their neuroscience and neurobiology and psychobiology students, uh, actuallly, no I’m sure they won’t.

    As for Abubakar being the only chelation death, that’s just a little wacky because chelation for heart disease has been banned in Tennessee… I think, maybe it was Kentucky…
    Because chelation has killed people and harmed them.

    This woman’s family believed she was killed by chelation:
    http://www.quackwatch.org/14Legal/pmg.html
    I think a judge agreed with the family.

    this is from the national complimentary whatever medicince association… NCAM
    “4. Does EDTA chelation therapy have side effects?

    When used as approved by the FDA (at the appropriate dose and infusion rate) for treatment of heavy metal poisoning, chelation with EDTA has a low occurrence of side effects. The most common side effect is a burning sensation experienced at the site where the EDTA is delivered into the veins. Rare side effects can include fever, hypotension (a sudden drop in blood pressure), hypocalcemia (abnormally low calcium levels in the blood), headache, nausea, vomiting, and bone marrow depression (meaning that blood cell counts fall). Injury to the kidneys has been reported with EDTA chelation therapy, but it is rare. Other serious side effects can occur if EDTA is not administered by a trained health professional.”

    Prometheus has pointed out the DMPS and DMSA aren’t necessarily dangerous, but I think he has pointed out that they could suppress the immune system or the liver or something in kids… they are chemicals you know and they are messing with levels of vital minerals, unless one is doing faux chelation like Buttar used to do… now he’s into the real stuff, IV dmps or edta or something.

    http://www.dmpsbackfire.com/reports/other.shtml
    The webiste you aren’t supposed to see, I think.

    Bradstreet makes a joke and snickers at the DAN! convention about how he’s been doing HBOT without knowing if it’s creating damaging oxidative stress. heh. Somehow y’all can promote both HBOT and the dire dangers of oxidative stress. Amazing. The good news is that since he’s selling HBOT anyway, he’s going to find out if it’s damaging any of the kids. Wanna bet what it is he finds? already he’s pretty sure it’s not hurting them, that way he can keep selling the treatments, and so can psychiatrist Mielke.

    We don’t know how many kids have had close calls with vitamin A poisoning like Dr. Jang’s patient, do we? Or how many might be harmed mentally by being told they’ve been poisoned when they haven’t been poisoned at all?

    Erik, I’m wondering if you are willing to state proudly that you are a full-fledged antivaxer like some mercury parents are willing to do. My sense is that both you and JB Handley, and Sue M, are absolutely fuly antivax, like, let’s shut down all vaccine programs now! Is that true? You won’t say it will you? Just like your friend Sally Bernard won’t say it. It’s too politically dangerous to be honest, better to keep up the smokescreen. I think that’s why she’s using a false name “Sallie” when she’s doing the mercury mom thing, but she used Sally when she was in business. I could be wrong there, but it seems likely.

    I would also like to hear your comment on the safety of gold salts. Maybe you could get a quote from Dr. Kirby on the safety of gold-salts.

  3. Sue M. January 9, 2006 at 17:04 #

    Kev wrote:

    “and my questions about David Kirbys take on the ‘severe blow’ the autism/thiomersal hypothesis has taken”.

    Is this what you mean by “severe blow”?

    http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/index.php?p=310

    -Sue M.

  4. HN January 9, 2006 at 18:30 #

    Here is more commentary on the “whale.to” site:
    http://members.tripod.com/vaccinesupport-ivil/antivaxsites/whale.html

    The owner of that website does not post his name on it, but it is widely known in the Usenet world that the owner is John Scudamore… a well-known Net Loon. He tends to post on various newsgroups in bursts (often with documentation that is selective and very very old), and then disappears. A search of him on misc.health.alternative is always entertaining reading:
    http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/search?group=misc.health.alternative&q=scudamore&qt_g=1&searchnow=Search+this+group

    Here is a more reliable source:
    http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/6mishome.htm … the reference is on the bottom, it is a 1000 page document that you can purchase. One of the interesting quotes on that page is: “Of all deaths reported to VAERS between 1990 and 1992, only one is believed to be even possibly associated with a vaccine. Each death reported to VAERS is thoroughly examined to ensure that it is not related to a new vaccine-related problem, but little or no evidence suggests that vaccines have contributed to any of the reported deaths. The Institute of Medicine in its 1994 report states that the risk of death from vaccines is “extraordinarily low.””

    Plus with the risk of DTaP:
    “DTaP
    Continuous crying, then full recovery: 1 in 1000
    Convulsions or shock, then full recovery: 1 in 14,000
    Acute encephalopathy: 0-10.5 in 1,000,000
    Death: None proven”

    Please compare that with the KNOWN risks of chelation. These risks are such that even for kids with real lead poisoning, they have to be at a level where the lead in their blood justifies the risk of which chelation protocol will be used. See the chart in http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lead-poisoning/FL00068/DSECTION=7 … which I will quote a bit from… _BEGIN QUOTE_
    Class I: less than 10 micrograms per deciliter (mcg/dL)
    Class II-A: 10 to 14 mcg/dL
    Class II-B: 15 to 19 mcg/dL
    Class III: 20 to 44 mcg/dL
    Class IV: 45 to 69 mcg/dL
    Class V: 70 or greater mcg/dL

    The primary treatment for lead poisoning is to stop the exposure. Removal of the source of lead is critical to reducing the lead levels. If you can’t remove the source of lead from the environment, you may have alternatives to reduce the likelihood that lead will cause problems. For instance, sometimes it might be preferable to seal in, rather than remove, old lead paint. Your local health department can recommend resources to identify and reduce lead in your home or in your community. For Classes I and II, ceasing exposure to lead may be sufficient to reduce lead in your body.

    Treating higher classes
    For more severe cases, your doctor may recommend chelation therapy in addition to removal from lead exposure. In chelation therapy, the medicine (chelating agent) you take binds with the lead so that it’s excreted from your body. Some Class III cases and many Class IV cases may be treated with the oral drug succimer (dimercaptosuccinic acid).

    Lead levels greater than 45 mcg/dL of blood, which fall into Class IV or V, are treated with a chemical called ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA). EDTA is administered through injections in your veins (intravenously) and may be combined with the drug dimercaprol (BAL). Depending on your lead level, you may need more than one treatment. The therapy may not reverse damage that already has occurred in cases of severe lead intoxication
    _END QUOTE_

    You will see that EDTA is only ever indicated when the lead level is at a very high level. If the Nadama’s son had had levels like that, then he would have been treated by the NHS in England… and they would not have had to go to the USA to have him treated by an Ear Nose and Throat specialist (who I hope gets some kind punishment!).

  5. clone3g January 9, 2006 at 18:30 #

    Erik Nanstiel: You ever see cross sections of donated autistic brains? LOTS of damaged areas. Researchers at Johns Hopkins did some nifty work in that area…

    That’s a little vague Erik. Damaged areas? Care to elaborate? Do you mean neuronal death or evidence of necrosis? What did that look like to you and your video camera? Got any clips you can share? (Not the CGI stuff) Did you see microglial activation there? What did it look like?

    Ms. Clark : Erik’s waffling (bluffing) about the Vargas study, I’m pretty sure, when he said something about cross sections of donated brains.

    Maybe Erik donated a slice of his own mercury toxic brain to science. Is that what you meant Erik? Though I’m sure you have plenty of grey matter to spare, try to remember that “Giving someone a Piece of Your Mind” is only a figure of speech. Here’s hoping you find some peace of mind in the new year as autism rates continue to fall.

  6. Sue M. January 9, 2006 at 22:36 #

    Clone wrote:

    ” Here’s hoping you find some peace of mind in the new year as autism rates continue to fall”.

    -Thank you for the reminder Clone that the autism rates are continuing to fall. We appreciate how you are able to acknowledge this fact. This should give us all some peace of mind, except of course the CDC, FDA, etc.

    -Sue M.

  7. clone3g January 9, 2006 at 23:24 #

    We? Who is we? The anti-vaxers?

    Sorry Sue but it’s very far from being a fact. Believe it or not, nothing would please me more than to see autism rates drop to a fraction of last year’s rates as a result of removing thimerosal from autism. If the cause and solution are that simple, I will be thrilled. I’m not wishing for a more complex cause but I highly doubt that it will turn out to be something that simple. If it is that simple, and I am wrong, great. Congratulations!

    If rates don’t decline as predicted, don’t worry. There will always be that remaining trace of mercury to keep your religion going.

    Of course we should also notice a drop off in rates as more children are cured or killed by chelation or magic drops or whatever else your religion helps to sell.

    As far as the number of children that die from vaccine reactions, it’s completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. That is the death of a child caused by EDTA injection. You may as well quote the number of trapeze accidents since Abubakar was killed by a dangerous and unproven procedure administered by an under qualified doctor and, wasn’t it supposed to be for lead poisoning? That didn’t come from the vaccines did it?

  8. Sue M. January 9, 2006 at 23:51 #

    Clone wrote:

    “wasn’t it supposed to be for lead poisoning? That didn’t come from the vaccines did it”?

    -Clone, I thought that you were smarter than that. That’s like lesson 101 in mercury analysis… I’m not about to review that lesson with you, you should know that by now. Come on, you are disappointing me.

    -Sue M.

  9. clone3g January 10, 2006 at 00:24 #

    Umm, Mercury analysis 101? No, I don’t know that by now. Please educate me.

    I’d heard that he was being treated for lead poisoning or was that code for mercury?
    Wink wink, Nudge nudge

  10. Bartholomew Cubbins January 10, 2006 at 03:23 #

    Sue, check out
    Interverbal’s blog

    Without looking back at the site, I’ll take a guess at which number you just hit by choosing (ala The Price is Right) #27.

    I’ll go see how I did.

    PS Bravo Interverbal

  11. Alyric January 10, 2006 at 03:52 #

    Erik Nastaniel wrote:

    “You ever see cross sections of donated autistic brains? LOTS of damaged areas. Researchers at Johns Hopkins did some nifty work in that area”

    References? i seem to recall Michelle Dawson on this and there is no ‘damaged areas’ about it. Different sure – damaged? – pure speculation. of course people who like to call superior processing speed ‘damage’ perhaps aren’t the most reliable guides in this area. The Diva knows about this stuff better than i do. i would like the references though and the dates of course – anything pre NMRI isn’t worth much.

  12. Ms. Clark January 10, 2006 at 05:25 #

    http://www.dds.ca.gov/FactsStats/quarterly.cfm

    This is where Rick will get his data for his next “OH the HUMANITY, California

    (choose one)

    a) is gonna be
    b) was nearly

    DESTROYED by thimerosal,” press release.

    The slowing in increase he saw didn’t look at all statistically significant to me, and I neve saw a statistical analysis that would more reliably give us an idea of the likelihood if it’s a real slowing of increase or just a steady increase.

    There’s no way of knowing right off the bat if thimerosal has anything to do with the slowing… because the difference in quarterly numbers DON”T represent NEW INTAKES as Rollens like to misrepresent them.

    Real intakes have slowed down in ALL categories according to one real stats guru who has published about autism epidemiology. That’s because the DDS tightened it’s intake standards (made it harder to get in) for all the categories.

    Rollens is just disingenuous when he trots out his quarterly reports pretending to be helpful. One of his admirers at the MIND called Rollens “a politician.”

    Anyway, California hasn’t hit the 1 in 166 rate yet for kids, so we haven’t even had an epidemic yet have we? How can there be a downturn now, it’s too early, can’t we get to 1 in 166 before we stop seeing new cases of autism?

    We aren’t knee deep in them yet!! I keep waiting for Rollens’ “staggering tidal wave of young children with autism” to hit my apartment. I’m prepared. I have Thomas the Tank Engine videos and lots of sparkly spinning toys.

  13. Kev January 10, 2006 at 09:52 #

    _”Is this what you mean by “severe blow”?”_

    Me? No. Thats what David Kirby said.

    But I have some interesting news on that front. I’ll pick up that thread soon.

  14. Sue M. January 10, 2006 at 18:17 #

    BC wrote:

    “Sue, check out
    Interverbal’s blog”

    -Do you actually think that I have time for that kind of nonsense. Please. Strawman, Ad hoc, fallacies… blah, blah, blah… You guys are so predictable.

    Sue M.

  15. Sue M. January 10, 2006 at 18:21 #

    Kev wrote:

    “Me? No. Thats what David Kirby said.

    But I have some interesting news on that front. I’ll pick up that thread soon”

    -Do tell what the “severe blow” is then? I’m interested in that. I will also anxiously await the interesting news that you have.

    -Sue M.

  16. Dave Seidel January 10, 2006 at 18:26 #

    Sue, if you want to learn how to communicate in a credible way you could do much worse than to pay attention to that so-called “nonsense”. We’re all guilty of using these fallacies from time to time, but you could at least try. Ignorance is no excuse.

  17. clone3g January 10, 2006 at 20:13 #

    Sue doesn’t have time for nonsense. Sue has just enough time to make up her mind and tell us about all of the science on her side.

    Sue doesn’t have the time to present any of that science but rest assured, it’s there and Sue is convinced, all others are just ignorant and arrogant fools, really.

    Hey Sue, I started a thread on Kev’s science board if you want to present anything resembling a scientific argument. Sorry but I can’t argue against intuition but feel free to post anyway that sounds important to you.

  18. Sue M. January 10, 2006 at 20:25 #

    Dave wrote:

    “Sue, if you want to learn how to communicate in a credible way you could do much worse than to pay attention to that so-called “nonsense”. We’re all guilty of using these fallacies from time to time, but you could at least try. Ignorance is no excuse”.

    -Dave, did you actually go into the “nonsense” of which I was speaking? Did you really read it? I imagine that you went in to the nonsense, read the first few lines of it, decided the guy was on “your side” and then decided to tell me how I should try to follow “the rules”. Sorry, waste of time.

    -Sue M.

  19. jennymom January 10, 2006 at 20:27 #

    Hi everyone….
    Um….I definitely don’t want to step into this lions den, but I’m a mom to an autistic, non-verbal 4 year old boy. Wow. I am totally overwhelmed by all the things you guys know that I don’t. Both sides of this argument. Please don’t rip my head off, but all the parents I know are doing vitamins, minerals, special diets, chelation and other things. We recently saw a DAN doctor who got us on some vitamin and mineral supplements (doesn’t look like vitamin A, so i guess thats a good thing?) She also had me buy some NDF Plus drops and folinic acid with B12 shots…..the lab work we got from Doctors Data said he was low in zinc and very high in lead. So here is my question: who is right? what should i do? what should i read? Can anyone help us? I feel like such a bad mom for not doing everything i possibly can for him…..i guess i am so naive, i believe just about anything doctors tell me…..I am listening to anything you guys have to say, but please don’t be mean! I am a mouse……
    Jenny

  20. Sotek January 10, 2006 at 20:39 #

    Jenny: Get a lab report that *isn’t* from Doctor’s Data – they’re known to be biased.

    Try getting one from your local hospital, or at least asking them where you could. The mail-order labs *know* they’re going to get more money from you if they report your child has a problem – because that means you’ll get treatment, and have to get more reports to “check up on the treatment”. It’s in their best interests to lie to you, and there’s not much that can be done to them FOR lying.

    And of course all the parents you know are doing just about everything – that’s a natural reaction, and it’s very very common among people trying to deal with something that isn’t understood. People want to do *something* because they feel guilty if they don’t – but often, that something isn’t any better than not doing anything at all.

    I don’t actually have any strong advice on what to do for your son, but I can say *don’t* chelate unless you have a lab report from a *hospital*. For vitamins, just remember this rule: If it’s fat-soluble, you can overdose. If it’s not water-soluble, the only thing that can happen if you get too much is that it’s wasted. For special diets, if it’s a diet that would be unhealthy for the average person to be on, it’s probably unhealthy for your son as well.

    Basically: Some of these treatments can do harm, and some can’t. None are proven to be efficacious, however. So … as long as you stick to the ones that can’t hurt (and don’t cost several hundred dollars per treatment – that’s a very bad sign right there), then it’s okay.

  21. Sotek January 10, 2006 at 20:42 #

    Sue: Logical fallacies are not “nonsense”. Well… okay. Technically, they ARE – but knowing what they are certainly isn’t, and identifying them as such isn’t either.

    Do you know what it even means for something to be a logical fallacy, Sue?

  22. HN January 10, 2006 at 20:44 #

    jennymom said: …..the lab work we got from Doctors Data said he was low in zinc and very high in lead. So here is my question: who is right? what should i do?”

    FIRST! Read the information on lead poisoning, all the pages from here:
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lead-poisoning/FL00068/DSECTION=1

    Take the test results to your child’s regular doctor (not the DAN doctor). Ask for a lead test from a LOCAL lab that is associated with a conventional hospital or clinic. Doctor’s Data has been known to have problems with quality control. In other words, get a second opinion.

    Then for your child: Research your local resources. If you are American then your child should already be getting public school services through Child Find portion of IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act). If not, call them now.

    Also see if your child’s REGULAR doctor can refer you to speech therapy and occupational therapy (see http://www.asha.org and http://www.aota.org ). Many of these are associated with hospitals (if you are an American you will have to investigate your local STATE’s insurance laws for coverage)… BUT, there are charitable organizations that do provide these services for a reduced or no fee. One of them is here:
    http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/temple/booklet/cldp.htm … there are others, check your local phone book for disability services.

    ALSO… many inexpensive therapy services can be found in university programs. The one close to us provided speech therapy with student SLP’s for $10/hour. Also, its School of Education has an Experimental Education Unit that provides low cost/free services to preschool children.

    Much of this information is contained in the book _Childhood Speech, Language and Listening Disorders_ by Patricia McAleer Hamaguchi. It should be in your local library (it was not originally in ours, so I asked them to order it, and they did!).

    Good luck.

  23. Dave Seidel January 10, 2006 at 21:09 #

    Sue, I did read it. Sorry if you don’t understand it, not sure what I can say. The articles provide a useful analysis of the (mis)use of rhetoric, specifically logical fallacies. I’m not sure what your educational background is — if you have a Liberal Arts education (like me) as opposed to a technical one, then you may have not had the opportunity to be exposed to these concepts before, but believe me, he did not invent this stuff. For anyone who wants to be capable of making convincing and creditable arguments that rely on logic and reason rather than intuition and emotion, it’s necessary to know at least some of this stuff.

  24. Kev January 10, 2006 at 21:23 #

    _”I feel like such a bad mom for not doing everything i possibly can for him…..i guess i am so naive, i believe just about anything doctors tell me…..I am listening to anything you guys have to say, but please don’t be mean! I am a mouse……”_

    There’s no way you’re a bad mom because you’re listening to other people – on either side. Listening is good. We all like to shout at each other because it helps us sublimate our fears that we might be wrong.

    If I was going to offer you one piece of advice it would be this – try not to see autism as a problem to solve. There are undoutably problem _areas_ assoicated with autism (lack of communication, toileting etc etc) but these things can and will be overcome. Much of the progress you don’t see now will come – it just takes a little longer. If you’d like to, I can point you to some places where autistic adults hang out and you can ask any questions you may have – this helped me enormously. My daughter’s five now and doing really well :o)

    Regarding vitamins, chelation etc – there are a lot of ways to do damage to a childs immature system with these things. Its not for me, or anyone else to tell you what you can and can’t do but listen to your instinct when you look these Doctors in the eye. Read the science behind their claims. Take everything that _everybody_ says (including me, HN, clone) with a large pinch of salt and research, research, research.

    Good luck and don’t be afraid to ask. Even though we strongly disagree at time, everyone involved in these debates is acting out of the best intentions and no one will intentionally mislead you.

  25. Kev January 10, 2006 at 21:30 #

    _”Do tell what the “severe blow” is then? I’m interested in that. I will also anxiously await the interesting news that you have.”_

    The phrase ‘severe blow’ was used by David Kirby – not me. I merey repeated it.

    The interesting news will have to wait awhile longer as I’m still getting the rest of the story but you can rest assured you’ll like it more than I do.

  26. Ms. Clark January 10, 2006 at 21:30 #

    Also, inteverbal gives examples of what a bad argument looks like, he’ll write, “Dr. Zeldoni says it’s good for my son and that’s good enough for me…”

    But there is no Dr. Zeldoni, so he’s not bad mouthing anyone. Maybe Sue read some of those statements and thought the the names were real DAN! doctors or something.

    Dr. Laidler did a test of the quality of the Doctor’s Data lab reports he sent them pure mercury free water mixed with pure mercury free creatinine, to simulate urine.

    He sent them 2 samples of this mercury free liquid that were from the same container, the same liquid.

    DD’s lab test said that they were both high in mercury and they were two different levels.

    I like the advice you’ve been given above, it’s conservative and safe.

    I wouldn’t recommend the b12 shots. I wouldn’t give them to my kid, but your’s probably won’t be harmed by them.

    It’s all meant to give you a TON of stuff to keep track of so that if you miss something they can say, “oh, well your kid isn’t getting better, must be that cookie she ate at her grandma’s house that doomed her to autism in spite of all the b12 injectiions.

    if you are working with DAN! you will be lied to, whetheror not your doc knows he’s spreading lies is another thing, he could be just ignorant.

    Be careful.

  27. Sotek January 10, 2006 at 21:48 #

    … oh, and when I said “not water soluble”, that was a mistake – if it IS water-soluble, then it’s safe, because any excess goes into the urine. fat-soluble doesn’t, and thus is dangerous. (Hence why vitamin A is dangerous – it’s fat-soluble).

    But the quick summary is this: autistic individuals are not biologically very different from neurotypical individuals, if there’s a meaningful difference at all. If something would be bad for your son if he wasn’t autistic, it’s still bad for him.

  28. Sue M. January 10, 2006 at 21:55 #

    Jenny,

    First of all, you are not a bad mom – no matter what. Are you a member of the GF/CF diet website? If not, I would encourage you to go to http://www.gfcfdiet.com. There are over 8,000 members there who can help you with diet, DAN! docs, supplements, etc. You also need to talk with the people who are actually following the diet to see if it is helping. Don’t knock it (or listen to those who do) until you try it. There are many things that you can do for your child biomedically which CANNOT hurt him. If you are uncomfortable with any treatment (ie chelation or whatever) don’t do it. As for your regular doctor or pediatrician, does he/she answer your questions satisfactorily when it comes to GI issues or any other “medical concerns” (IF your son has any)? If not, that is NOT acceptable. Any medical concerns that you have cannot be attributed to “your kid has autism”. If that happens YOU need to explore other ways to get the answers. It is unfortunate that this is the case, but it often happens that regular docs don’t have an explanation for the medical concerns of autistic children. If your child does not suffer from any of these issues (GI, allergies, etc), consider yourself lucky 🙂 . It is easy for others here to knock certain labs or DAN! doctors. You need to ask them if they have any experience with this type of treatment for autism. I can assure you that there are thousands upon thousands of us who CAN vouch for this sort of treatment helping their children. HN brings up the speech therapy and occupational therapy “stuff”. It is also very important but I will leave that up to others because obviously that information is readily available and pretty easy to obtain. I’m sure that you’ve already seen that…

    Sue M.

  29. Sue M. January 10, 2006 at 21:56 #

    Oh yeah, Jenny, how can I forget… Research ANY and ALL vaccinations that you choose to get for your child or children. Most importantly, NO THIMEROSAL!

    -Sue M.

  30. Sue M. January 10, 2006 at 22:01 #

    Kev wrote:

    “The phrase ‘severe blow’ was used by David Kirby – not me. I merey repeated it”.

    -Ok, but what was the “SEVERE BLOW” as used by David Kirby? I must have missed it.

    -Sue M.

  31. jennymom January 10, 2006 at 22:44 #

    Hey everyone…..
    Thank you all for getting back to me so quickly! Sotek, HN, Kev, Ms Clark and Sue, thank you for all your advice. Luckily, Graham is in an awesome ABA/Teach Preschool through our public schools and is getting OT and ST as well there. I will certainly call my regular pediatrician tomorrow and make an appointment to go over all this stuff i got to see what he says…..We have gone to the GFCF website, it is great and we are going to start that this month for sure, its certainly worth a try……Thank you all for your kind words and help, i am marking this down as a favorite place and will keep up with everyone’s (lively) debates.
    Thank you all again for your help,
    Jenny

  32. Kev January 10, 2006 at 23:07 #

    _”Ok, but what was the “SEVERE BLOW” as used by David Kirby? I must have missed it.”_

    Oh I see – well that kind of ties in to the rest of it. I’m not trying to be evasive I just haven’t got the whole thing yet.

  33. Kev January 10, 2006 at 23:12 #

    Jenny – if you go here you’ll find a forum dedicated solely to the science behind autism. I set it up to provide a calmer atmosphere where the science can be discussed rationally with those you agree and disagree with.

    There are lots of genuine scientists who post there. Some have autistic kids like you and me, some don’t and some are autistic themselves. There are also people like myself who are not scientifically literate but are very interested in finding out all we can. I’ve found it ideal when trying to understand how a particular theory or idea gets going or hwo and why some theories have more merit than others.

  34. Wade Rankin January 10, 2006 at 23:20 #

    Jenny,

    If your DAN! doc has you starting other aspects of a biomedical protocol before getting on a GFCF diet, it may be time to look for another doc. And if the doc can’t answer questions about timing of supplements (so they will work together rather than cancel each other out), it’s time to look for another doc. As a parent who believes in the value of biomedical treatments, let me say that there are no one-size-fits-all protocols. Make sure you educate yourself about the benefits of any recommended treatment, and especially the risks associated with the treatment. Then make sure your doc can answer your informed questions about why a particular treatment is right for YOUR child. If that doc can’t do it, it’s time to look for another doc.

  35. Sue M. January 11, 2006 at 02:54 #

    HN wrote:

    “One of the interesting quotes on that page is: “Of all deaths reported to VAERS between 1990 and 1992, only one is believed to be even possibly associated with a vaccine. Each death reported to VAERS is thoroughly examined to ensure that it is not related to a new vaccine-related problem, but little or no evidence suggests that vaccines have contributed to any of the reported deaths”.

    -The only interesting thing about this quote is how low the CDC will stoop. They are attempting to set people’s minds at ease. What a load of crap. Please look at the following (it is from whaleto.com but if you go to the VAERS system you will see that they copied it directly from VAERS). Keep in mind also that HN’s quote states from the years 1990-1992 and below they are only talking about the year 1990 (who knows how many more from 1991 and 1992):

    http://www.whale.to/a/1990VaersDeaths.csv

    -As you look at the whaleto.com info (from VAERS), you will see that there were 73 deaths reported on the system in 1990 alone. So, the CDC is having us believe that they did “thorough examinations” and can only associate ONE death from vaccinations? Are you kidding me? Pay special attention to #37-52 on the whaleto.com (VAERS info). These are mostly 2-4 month old infants who died within hours/days of being vaccinated with the combo of DTP/OPV. I’m supposed to believe that only ONE was a true vaccine reaction? Can anyone out there say BULLSH*T ! So, for those of you who want to disregard the vaccine question as a whole by saying that it is irrelevant to the thimerosal/autism theory. Fine. You do that. What you cannot disregard is the fact that the CDC will stop at nothing to promote the “safety” of their vaccination program. Does this sound the least bit familiar to any of you?

    -Sue M.

  36. Sue M. January 11, 2006 at 03:10 #

    This was also quite comical. From HN’s lovely CDC information. Look what they have to say about the persistent rumor that the DTP was causing SIDS in infants:

    “In fact, in several of the studies children who had recently gotten a DTP shot were less likely to get SIDS. The Institute of Medicine reported that “all controlled studies that have compared immunized versus nonimmunized children have found either no association . . . or a decreased risk . . . of SIDS among immunized children” and concluded that “the evidence does not indicate a causal relation between [DTP] vaccine and SIDS.”

    -Does THIS sound familiar to anyone? Isn’t there also a study out there that thimerosal had a PROTECTIVE quality to it?? How funny. What a load of CRAP. Of course as most of you know (or should know), they changed from the DTP to the DTaP due to the fact that they finally figured out the DTP was in fact dangerous. It was causing convulsions, high fever, brain damage, etc. to children. I’m pretty damn sure it was also causing SIDS in infants… You CANNOT make this stuff up.

    HN, please stop quoting CDC information as valid and the “last word”. Clearly, they are not.

    -Sue M.

  37. Sue M. January 11, 2006 at 03:17 #

    Sorry for the strike-outs above… still don’t get why it happens or what I can do to stop it… I know, I’m a dummy.

    -Sue M.

  38. hollywoodjaded January 11, 2006 at 04:32 #

    It’s unfortunate you found the SIDS study “comical”. I have had two relatives die of SIDS and neither were vaccinated.

  39. Sue M. January 11, 2006 at 05:03 #

    hollywood wrote:

    “It’s unfortunate you found the SIDS study “comical”. I have had two relatives die of SIDS and neither were vaccinated”.

    -SIDS is not comical, Hollywood. Obviously. It’s the CDC’s idea that somehow being vaccinated with the DTP gave you less chance of SIDS. Yeah, right. The DTP which was ultimately shown to cause brain damage in children somehow has a protective quality to it…

    -Sue M.

  40. Trip300 January 11, 2006 at 06:51 #

    Sotek Said,

    Jenny: Get a lab report that isn’t from Doctor’s Data – they’re known to be biased.

    Try getting one from your local hospital, or at least asking them where you could. The mail-order labs know they’re going to get more money from you if they report your child has a problem – because that means you’ll get treatment, and have to get more reports to “check up on the treatment”. It’s in their best interests to lie to you, and there’s not much that can be done to them FOR lying.

    Doctor’s Data is biased? Can you back that up Sotek? Prove it!

    Jenny, no local hospital lab is going to do these types of tests. Local hospital/conventional medicine got your family into this mess, do you really trust them to get you out of it?

    JennyMom, before you waste your time with the GFCF diet, like we did, have Graham’s sigA level tested through a comprehensive stool analysis. That test is the best measure of whether or not you need to start the diet. Ask your DAN doctor about it, she should know what the sigA level is.

  41. hollywoodjaded January 11, 2006 at 06:59 #

    Sue M:
    I did not state that you said SIDS was comical. I stated that you said you found the S”IDS Study” by the CDC to be “comical”. This study, however, reflects exactly what happened in family — two unvaccinated females died of SIDS.

    Furthermore, yes, the DTP did actually have a protective quality to it. It was meant to prevent diseases infants die of, thereby “protecting” them. I have another extremely close relative who nearly passed away due to pertussis. Unvaccinated, again, as he was too young.

    – hollywoodjaded

  42. Trip300 January 11, 2006 at 07:09 #

    Ms Clark,

    You tell this TALL tale different every time,

    Dr. Laidler did a test of the quality of the Doctor’s Data lab reports he sent them pure mercury free water mixed with pure mercury free creatinine, to simulate urine.

    He sent them 2 samples of this mercury free liquid that were from the same container, the same liquid.

    DD’s lab test said that they were both high in mercury and they were two different levels.

    I noticed that when you told the story this time that you said that Dr. Laidler used “mercury free liquid”. Prove it! I assume this was peer reviewed? Ok, was it viewed by anyone at all?

    If you are working with DAN! you will be lied to, whetheror not your doc knows he’s spreading lies is another thing, he could be just ignorant.

    JennyMom’s DAN doctor is a she and not a he, … why don’t you try reading what she wrote next time.

  43. HN January 11, 2006 at 07:26 #

    The VAERS data is just input data that has not been evaluated. When the data is evaluated it turns out MOST of the time that there is no basis to blame vaccines.

    When someone decides that John Scudamore’s whale.to site is more reliable than the CDC there is nothing to say. Nothing at all.

  44. Jonathan Semetko January 11, 2006 at 07:29 #

    Sue,

    My list is not about a “side” per se and includes loose examples that I have seen of logical fallacies in practice from other behavior analysts (A community I belong to).
    My list has been criticized elsewhere on the web for not tackling the bigger specific errors in autism, some of which would surely have been in the autism/vaccine camp. I made efforts to avoid that, as this was not its purpose.

    You wrote:

    “Do you actually think that I have time for that kind of nonsense. Please. Strawman, Ad hoc, fallacies… blah, blah, blah… You guys are so predictable.”

    I find it interesting that I did not list the “Ad Hoc Fallacy” in my list (I only put in aruments that I have seen multiple times and the Ad Hoc is very rare in autism debates).

    How did you learn about this one Sue? You have clearly retained it from somewhere?

  45. HN January 11, 2006 at 07:36 #

    Actually, to go back on topic:

    Why would anyone in their right mind push a nasty drug like EDTA into their child without good reason? If the little boy really had lead poisoning he would have been treated by the NHS in the UK. There would have been absolutely no reason to drag him across the Atlantic Ocean to see an Ear, Nose and Throat specialist.

  46. Ms. Clark January 11, 2006 at 07:55 #

    Dr. Laidler has posted it in public the details of what he did. I think you can get his e-mail address off of autism-watch.org there should be some kind of contact info there.

    In chemistry dear, 777, they need to know what is in the various powders and liquids they use to do, well, you know, CHEMISTRY. So suppliers label their various powders and potions as to EXACTLY what is in them. Dr. Laidler knew that he was mixing pure distilled water, no mercury coming from the distilling equipment, it would show up in the various experiments, duh.

    No mercury in the creatinine supplied by the manufacturer as pure creatinine (needed to create the false urine).

    Mix mercury free stuff in a university laborator, which he said specifically he had access to. Divide the mercury free water/creatinine into 2 cups from DD. Send it off with 2 different names on the paperwork. Get back 2 different reports showing mercury.

    Dr. Laidler said that he suspected that they hadn’t provided mercury free (specially washed) plastic cups.

    I have always suspected the DD just makes up numbers, but Dr. Laidler’s idea is more rational.

    You think it’s a lie, Sev, because you don’t like to hear it.

    I have asked parents many times to test out the labs themselves to split a sample of their child’s urine and freeze one sample and send it later, or split it and send it on the same day with 2 names on it, or use urine from someone who is healthy and split it 4 ways and send it off to 4 different labs.

    Here’s a clue: The labs ought to be identical.

    Here’s a prediction: NONE of you will do it because you are afraid to find out the truth about your stupid cultlike faith in DD lab. Ever notice how everyone has to use one of 4 labs, DD, Great Smokies, Great Plains and there’s one more that specializes in fecal tests, if I remember right.

    OH, Dr. Andrew Wakefield said, very plainly that there was NO test that could predict whether or not the GFCF diet would work. He said that you just had to comit to going on it for a year to find out if it would do anything.

    So, you’re doctor is apparently wrong Sev, you’ve been lied to and paid for a useless lab test, according to the GREAT doc Wakefield.

    Jenny, your, apparently lady doctor may be a flaming idiot. The DAN! parents frequently complain about getting a bad DAN! doctor and needing to switch. Dr. McCandless said that they need to clear out the deadwood from the DAN! list because there are doctors there who no longer qualify to be DAN! doctors. They were going to get at cleaning up that list eventually.

    A DAN! doctor, in good standing apparently, almost killed a child with too much vitamin A. What does that tell you about them?

    Most high school kids know about the dangers of too high a dose of fat soluble vitamins. It’s like ultra basic beginning nutrition. I knew about it in junior high school, and that was ages ago. There’s NO research to support giving kids more vitamin A. They just make this stuff up and tell parents to do it.

    If I had a small child with autism, I’d keep all DAN! doctors and DAN! chiropractors and DAN! nutritionists 10 miles away from my child at all times, and I wouldn’t pay for any stinking telephone consultation, either.

    Also, Kevin lied or is just grossly mistaken about the tests not being available in local labs. They are available and usually for less money than DD charges. All you have to do is ask real doctor about these tests. Easy.

    Don’t use mail order labs, it’s a very bad idea.

  47. Kev January 11, 2006 at 08:35 #

    _”Doctor’s Data is biased? Can you back that up Sotek? Prove it!”_

    Not DD, but that other firm favourite Great Plains Lab:

    There was once a theory that a sort of plastic cup might cause autism by storing a certain type of bacteria.

    _”the child had elevated levels of yeast by-products, indicating a “yeast/fungal overgrowth of the gastrointestinal tract.” Dr. Shaw says such yeast infections cause autism.”_

    Source (Fox News originally)

    ‘Dr Shaw’ is Dr WIlliam Shaw, owner of Great Plains. Aside from the bizarre belief that yeast single handedly causes autism, unfortunately for Shaw, it seems that the bacteria found on the plastic cup was not the same sort found on the child in question. He didn’t think to check.

    _”Jenny, no local hospital lab is going to do these types of tests. Local hospital/conventional medicine got your family into this mess, do you really trust them to get you out of it?”_

    Jenny is at the start of her journey Kevin. I assured her above no one would mislead her and yet here you are doing it. She has already probably worked out that this debate is fractured between people who follow science and those who disregard all forms of conventional medicine – you don’t need to carry on pushing your agenda on her.

  48. Trip300 January 11, 2006 at 09:50 #

    I ask again, “Doctor’s Data is biased? Can you back that up Sotek? Prove it!”.

    I am not trying to mislead anyone Kev, …you and Ms. Clark are!

    Ms. Clark said,

    OH, Dr. Andrew Wakefield said, very plainly that there was NO test that could predict whether or not the GFCF diet would work. He said that you just had to comit to going on it for a year to find out if it would do anything.

    So, you’re doctor is apparently wrong Sev, you’ve been lied to and paid for a useless lab test, according to the GREAT doc Wakefield.

    You constantly bash Dr. Wakefield but now you choose to quote him and take him out of context to support your arguement. If Dr. Wakefield said “NO test that could predict whether or not the GFCF diet would work. He said that you just had to comit to going on it for a year to find out if it would do anything, then he was wrong.

    Ms Clark said,

    Also, Kevin lied or is just grossly mistaken about the tests not being available in local labs. They are available and usually for less money than DD charges. All you have to do is ask real doctor about these tests. Easy.

    Again, try reading Ms. Clark! I said, Jenny, no local hospital lab is going to do these types of tests. I didn’t say they were not available, I said, “ Jenny, no local hospital lab is going to do these types of tests. , and they are not! In most cases, if you ask a conventional medicine doctor to check for heavy metals or yeast in conjunction with an autism diagnosis, that conventional medicine doctor will tell you it’s all quackery and will refuse to do that type of testing.

    I never said “the tests not being available in local labs” they are available, but mainstream doctors won’t order them!

    Kevin Letch said,

    Jenny is at the start of her journey Kevin. I assured her above no one would mislead her and yet here you are doing it. She has already probably worked out that this debate is fractured between people who follow science and those who disregard all forms of conventional medicine – you don’t need to carry on pushing your agenda on her.

    I don’t have any agenda Kevin Leitch, I have experience. I have experience seeing first hand how these alternative medicine autism treatments work and how the children improve with these treatments, including my own son. If I am guilty of any agenda, it would be an agenda to helping all the families of autistic children to find the answers and success that I have found.

  49. Trip300 January 11, 2006 at 10:06 #

    Just in case Jenny or anyone else is confused, my real name is Kevin but I am not allowed to comment under my real name here, even though the blog administrator knows who I really am.
    I thought that this needed to be pointed out, since both Kevin Leitch and Ms. Clark have been referring to me as Kevin. Someone new to this discussion might be confused by all the Kevins.

  50. Kev January 11, 2006 at 10:51 #

    _”If I am guilty of any agenda, it would be an agenda to helping all the families of autistic children to find the answers and success that I have found.”_

    Then why the need to mislead? Local hospitals in the US are quite happy to do those kind of tests – I know because I’ve talked to GP’s from both the UK and the US.

    I further illustrated to you that the private labs are not only expensive but not very thorough and used Great Plains Lab as an example. This isn’t something to fool around with. These treatments are serious and have profound effects on the systems of young children. I would’ve considered it par for the course to at least _start_ with an accurate assessment. Quite clearly there are concerns with at least one of the major private ventures.

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