Yesterday, my fellow countryman Mike Stanton left the following comment in response to a previous commenter about his belief regarding how his child had become autistic:
There may not be a single answer. But that does not mean we can pick any answer we like. There has to be some scientific validity to any hypothesis.
This is such a good comment. It reflects something I’ve felt increasingly over the last year or so – the increase in pseudo-scientific theories posed as a ‘menu’ for parents to choose from. It reminds me of sauntering up to the counter at McDonalds and saying – “I’ll have one of those, one of those and one of those.”
I recently came across a post made on the Onibasu list which illustrates my point. This is the signature of the poster in question. Its a list of treatments she’s trying on her child:
My son is using M-B12 (Hopewell) since Dec 2003, Wellness Essential GSH (had been using TD-Glut but levels were always low), TD-DMSA (3 on and 4 off – 8 hr schedule) (Lee Silsby) since Oct 2005, (Used TD-DMPS Jan 2005 ?Oct 2005) TD-ALA (Lee Silsby) since Oct 2005, TD-LDN (Wellness) Since Oct 2005, (High Tech Health) FIR sauna, Magnetico bed, High Tech Health’s water machine, and a lot of supplements.) GFGFSF diet.
The post in question is also asking about Lupron. Thats a total of 12 separate treatments, ‘a lot of’ supplements and she probably is in the process of adding Lupron to that list as we speak.
And can you Supersize me please?
What worries me is even a bog-standard bottle of Asprin has a warning on it about responsible use. Is it really sensible to risk giving one’s child such a massive cocktail of drugs on the word of someone who quite obviously is more interested in money than science?
Medicine shouldn’t be such a pick and mix affair. Its quite worrying about what this reveals about how the West’s perception of doctors has changed. Doctors who have undergone 7 years plus of training are viewed with suspicion and sued at the drop of an opinion whilst ‘doctors’ who have shops rather than practices are lauded as heroes.
How did it come to this? When did McScience start to replace science? How did it come to pass that the process of peer review (designed to give a good _starting point_ to a paper) meant nothing and the process of buying an entry in a pseudoscience rag or buying a misleading advertmeant everything?
I’m nobodies scientist. It takes me longer to understand the science because I need to go through it time after time so I understand all the words and understand the implications. I ask questions of actual scientists and get them to translate for me so it stands to reason to me that for an article to be peer reviewed in a decent journal assures that the standard of science in that article will be fairly high. It might not make the paper _right_ , but at least we can be sure its been thought through properly.
Surely that needs to be the absolute baseline of quality we should come to expect for papers that discuss such important questions. Otherwise we really do end up at the counter of McScience – like kids in a sweet shop, taking what we think we’ll like rather than what we need.
Left Brain Right Brain 
Wonderfully pithy points!
As I said in my February 25th post on “Sunk By Bunk And Junk” * :
If someone is trying to sell you “special†information, remember that they are trying to $ell you something – which may not necessarily be “special†at all.
I have observed that in this advertising-driven American economy, people often don’t trust that which is provided without a large price tag, such as the taxpayer-funded but otherwise free consumer or health advice from any one of a number of agencies.
There is this misconception that “expen$ive = important = good” and that for something to be important or useful, someone has to charge a lot for it.
The same is true for celebrity status — anything vouched by a “celebrity” must somehow be better than anything vouched by the familiar old pædiatrician. (Some of these “celebrities” are famous solely for being famous, rather than for any good accomplishments.) Celebrity status explains a lot of the cultish status and resistance to any contradictory information that is found in many of the “cure” groups.
andrea
* http://www.xanga.com/qw88nb88
How does McScience compare with McPoisoning? McPoisoning is when you willingly and knowingly inject babies and pregnant women with a McNeurotoxin. Then you mix in a few live McViruses and hope for the best.
– Sue M.
Gee Sue,
You should consult with a McExpert.
Here’s one now:
Dear Paula: Methyl mercury is not toxic to the body except in huge doses, and can be ordinarily disposed/detoxed by us. It is when it is oxidized into inorganic mercuy is it toxic, and once inside the brain cannot exit the blood brain easily to be gotten rid of, with a half-life of more than 20 years.
McClone,
Clearly you must know by now the difference between methyl and ethyl mercury. Correct? So, possibly you believe that ethyl mercury is oh, so safe as well… however, your emphasis on the methyl mercury from your above quote seems a bit McFoolish to me right now. Possibly you will clarify.
– Sue M.
Did I say it was safe? Just wondering
_”How does McScience compare with McPoisoning? McPoisoning is when you willingly and knowingly inject babies and pregnant women with a McNeurotoxin”_
Another derailing comment from Sue M. How surprising.
Get this through your head: I agree with you that putting a neurotoxin in a vaccine isn’t the greatest idea in the world. I agree with you that its a good idea to remove it. However, I _don’t_ agree with your unsupported, unverified belief that this particular neurotoxin causes autism.
Care to address the points now Sue? No? What a shock.
Clone wrote:
“Did I say it was safe? Just wondering”.
– Way to try to get the topic off the fact that you made a mistake, Clone. Just admit it (we all make mistakes). You made a mistake by posting a quote about methyl instead of ethyl mercury and now you want to deflect away from that by changing the topic. It’s so clear that it’s see through…
– Sue M.
Where was my mistake?
In my last comment, I was paraphrasing you and one of your common tactics, a device I often use to point out absurd statements.
Back to the McClueless advice column I linked to and snipped. It’s a perfect illustration of the McScience Kev is talking about in his post.
You have a sex-therapist psychologist-something or other offering advice most toxicologists would shy away from. Flawed advice based on a flawed interpretation of flawed research.
The assertion that “methylmercury is not toxic to the body except in huge doses” is not only wrong, it’s a stupid and irresponsible thing to say.
The context of the advice is even more laughable since the question concerned the ability of methylcobalamin to convert mercury to the more toxic methylmercury. It’s not McChemistry, that’s how it’s done. No one disputes that methylmercury is the more toxic form. Tell me and show me I am wrong and I’ve made a McSteak. Otherwise I’ll expect your apology.
So next time you bite into your Filet O’ Fish sandwich and complain about the mercury content, remember, A DAN! doctor says it’s the non-toxic form of mercury. Go Fish.
Kev wrote:
“I agree with you that putting a neurotoxin in a vaccine isn’t the greatest idea in the world”.
– Now there’s an understatement. When you read this comment, doesn’t it make you cringe just a little bit? Doesn’t it just seem so silly to have to even address it?
– Sue M.
_” Doesn’t it just seem so silly to have to even address it?”_
If you mean in terms of this is something I’ve always said and yet you keep trying it as a misdirecting trick then yes, it does seem silly to keep having to address it.
Here’s one of my favorite Sue M. moments:
By the way, I was “cowards†above. [yeah, I meant to do that] I was doing an experiment. [Yeah, that’s it, an experiment] I wanted to see what kind of response that I would get to the article which I posted in regards to the sick little boy vs. the response that I would get in regards to the comment on Jannalou’s “issuesâ€.[yeah, that’s the ticket, an EX-pare-ah-mint] Of course, you guys came through just as I expected…
You should really design experiments for the DAN! folks Sue. You have a knack for pre-observation of expected outcome and making it fit the hypothesis.
“How does McScience compare with McPoisoning? McPoisoning is when you willingly and knowingly inject babies and pregnant women with a McNeurotoxin. Then you mix in a few live McViruses and hope for the best.”
– Sue M.
Sue, please forgive my lack of willingness to go back and read through all previous comments/posts, as this has probably quite likely been mentioned in the past (and I’m relatively new here). I also apologize in advance for the lack of constructive nature of this, and potential irrelevance to the discussion, it’s just a comment. Given your apparent position, as stated above, when reading your name, I can’t help but see “Sue ’em!”, which to me conveys a lack of open-mindedness about the discussion, and rather an attitude of screw ’em all, sue them!
Perhaps intentional, perhaps not. At any rate, perhaps you’d be willing to consider a change.
Mc Sue? It’s kind of catchy and endearing – even to a skeptic.
(laughs) Thanks Kev this was a gem.
Sue,
Let me help too. Clone was quoting McCandless. btw, is her site safe for work?
Can I be the first to point out that McScience isn’t gluten-free? I just don’t want anyone suing Kev for misrepresenting a product.
/Romulan Joke Cloaking Device disengaged.
Clone wrote:
“The assertion that “methylmercury is not toxic to the body except in huge doses†is not only wrong, it’s a stupid and irresponsible thing to say”.
– Hello, earth to McClone… your bunch of McIdiots seem pretty willing to say that the amount of ethyl-mercury in vaccines is not toxic. Is that equally as stupid and irresponsible. Duh, of course it is.
– Sue M.
I took my child to the dentist this last week. Xe’s been getting fillings put in her teeth. Most of them are amalgams, but the last one was tooth colored.
I brought up the silliness of the fear of mercury since everyone has mercury in their body, the same as everyone has strontium and lead and gold and silver and iodine, and so forth in their bodies.
He said he get’s patients who come in and tell him “no mercury fillings no way” . He says, that’s fine, we have this composite material, but you should know that it has an ingredient in it that is used for rat poison.
He says that they start looking at amalgams again in a different light.
I don’t agree that it’s a bad idea to use thimerosal in vaccines, not if there’s nothing better. Sure they can find another preservative, maybe it’s cheaper, I have no idea, but it could have it’s own toxic effects.
Single dose vials are not an option for the third world.
This is all just a game Sue Mis*a*zek or whatever her name is (Dad of Cameron, her name is really Sue M., I asked the same question about “sue them” when she first showed up) is playing because she’s what’s known as a “flaming nutcase antivaxer”. Sue wants all vaccinations to end today and forever, don’t you Sue?
Sue would love to see a good old-fashioned diptheria epidemic. Wouldn’t you, Sue? All kids ought to come down with tetanus at least once, and we just loooooove polio.
I don’t know anyone who would say that ethyl-mercuy is non-toxic without knowing the concentration. I wouldn’t even say that about water. Obviously thimerosal (different from ethylmercury) is toxic to bacteria and fungi which is why it’s called a preservative and used as such. I’m not sure who my bunch of idiots are but I don’t think toxicity is the issue, at least not to me.
Your bunch seem pretty willing to say that the amount of mercury in vaccines causes autism. There’s where we have a problem. ¿Comprende?
Clone wrote:
“I wouldn’t even say that about water”.
– There’s that water analogy. I love that one.
Clone wrote:
“I’m not sure who my bunch of idiots are but I don’t think toxicity is the issue, at least not to me”.
– It should an issue to you.
Click to access MSDS-Merck_7-28-03.pdf
– Sue M.
Why is Camille (or Ms. Clark or Autism Diva or Nana) going under anonymous now? I was waiting for Kev to out her but… well you know the drill….
Ms. Clark wrote:
“Single dose vials are not an option for the third world”.
– What was the “third world” doing before we started shipping them thimerosal containing vaccinations? Whatever it was, they were better off.
– Sue M.
Dad of Cameron wrote:
“Given your apparent position, as stated above, when reading your name, I can’t help but see “Sue ‘em!â€, which to me conveys a lack of open-mindedness about the discussion, and rather an attitude of screw ‘em all, sue them”!
– Nice try, Dad. Not the case at all. I used to go by just plain Sue on another list. Then another woman joined who also signed just Sue… so it got confusing. I started just adding the M (First letter of my last name, nothing too crazy) to end my posts… I’m sorry to see that you have become so jaded so quickly. You see that Camille, Autism Diva, Ms. Clark, Nana and anonymous can also vouch for that.
– Sue M. (as opposed to Sue ’em, let ’em rot in hell).
Sue M. said: It should an issue to you.
I didn’t say it isn’t an issue, obviously it’s a BIG issue for you, I said it isn’t the issue.
I take issue with the idea that autism is mercury poisoning. That’s the issue you support but manage to dance around ¿Comprende?
Click to access KING%20Play%20Sand.pdf
Sue,
Humor me…What is thimerosal toxity, tell me what happens, at what amounts.
Clone wrote:
“http://consumer.kpmindustries.com/documents/MSDS/KING%20Play%20Sand.pdf”
– Have you been given word that they are going to start injecting newborn babies with King’s Play sand? If so, please advise against it.
– Sue M.
What’s with the dash in front of all of Sue M’s paragraphs? Is it like some kind of flag, so she can more easily tally her posts in order to receive remuneration?
McAnon wrote:
“What’s with the dash in front of all of Sue M’s paragraphs? Is it like some kind of flag, so she can more easily tally her posts in order to receive remuneration”?
– Honey, it’s a habit. One which I will continue. Nothing more, nothing less.
– Sue M.
Jonathan wrote:
“Humor me…What is thimerosal toxity, tell me what happens, at what amounts”.
– Don’t know, do you? No, of course you don’t. I just heard some VERY DISTURBING news… The CDC is planning on adding a LEAD preservative to the HIB vaccine. Can you F*cking believe that? Yes, lead. I am sickened.
– Sue M.
Sue,
The alternative to not using preservatives in vaccines is that they can get contaminated and lots of people could get really, really sick. In a third world country, the use of thimerosal-containing vaccine which (at best) may play some tangential role in autism is far preferable to widespread epidemics of vaccine-preventable diseases which would likely kill thousands.
And let’s get one other thing straight. The CDC doesn’t add preservatives to vaccines. Drug companies do. And then the FDA approves the formulation of said vaccine. And then (and only then) does the CDC get involved with putting that vaccine on their list of recommendations. And after all that, states can then decide whether to follow the CDC vaccine recommendations or not. (and not every state follows them to the letter)
Comprende-vous?
Sue M. Said Don’t know, do you? No, of course you don’t. I just heard some VERY DISTURBING news… The CDC is planning on adding a LEAD preservative to the HIB vaccine. Can you F*cking believe that? Yes, lead. I am sickened.
SOURCE????
It’s merely an attempt to provoke a reaction.
McAnon wrote:
“It’s merely an attempt to provoke a reaction”.
– Of course, it is. Would they really be that stupid? Lead. No way… Well, on second thought.
– Sue M.
Mouse wrote:
“In a third world country, the use of thimerosal-containing vaccine which (at best) may play some tangential role in autism is far preferable to widespread epidemics of vaccine-preventable diseases which would likely kill thousands”.
– It’s comments like this which show the ignorance of people.
– Sue M.
Sue Misiasek or whatever your name is.
I am not now and never have been “nana.” So just quit your lies. This is the second or third time you have said confidently that I have posted as “nana”. You are wrong or just a liar.
And you are an antivaxer through and through who doesn’t have the guts to say it when asked.
You don’t care how many chidlren die from vaccine preventable diseases. That’s the bottom line on you and vaccines.
My post as anonymous was so obviously me. I could have changed the details. I could have posted as Sue M. for that matter.
Of course, Sue M is an anti-vaxer; she has three children none of whom are on the spectrum. She posts here to spread her anti-vax propaganda. She has no first-hand experience with ASD whatsoever.
McAnon wrote:
“She has no first-hand experience with ASD whatsoever”.
– Oh really, McAnon? Shows what you know.
– Sue M.
Hi Sue,
You wrote:
“Don’t know, do you? No, of course you don’t. I just heard some VERY DISTURBING news… The CDC is planning on adding a LEAD preservative to the HIB vaccine. Can you F*cking believe that? Yes, lead. I am sickened.”
Lets try again….
Please tell me what is thimerosal toxity, tell me what happens, at what amounts?
Ms. Clark, Camille, anonymous wrote:
“You don’t care how many chidlren die from vaccine preventable diseases. That’s the bottom line on you and vaccines”.
– That’s where you are wrong, Camille. I do care. That’s the reason why I want the risk/rewards to be HONESTLY portrayed. As of today, they are not. I’m so sorry that you don’t get that…
Camille wrote:
“My post as anonymous was so obviously me”.
– So, why did you post as anonymous? Hey, no big deal… I tried it too. Kev ratted me out, though…
Ms. Clark wrote:
“I am not now and never have been “nana.â€
– Count you blessings for that, she’s a real dope.
– Sue M.
Jonathan wrote:
“Please tell me what is thimerosal toxity, tell me what happens, at what amounts”?
– You may have missed my response to that. To be honest, my grammar was horrific. Let me try again. My response to that is… I don’t KNOW what happens and at what amounts. That is the whole issue. I do believe that the evidence is mounting that it could, in fact, play a role in triggering autism. The main issue is that the officials who approve vaccines don’t know either…
– Sue M.
Elaborate then on your first-hand experience.
McAnon wrote:
“Elaborate then on your first-hand experience”.
– You’ve got to be kidding me?
– Sue M.
Sue,
You remind me of the guy in a “Kids in the Hall” skit who refuses to just stay down.
http://www.kithfan.org/work/transcripts/three/staydown.html
Do you, Sue M., or any of your immediate blood relatives have a diagnosis of Autism: Yes OR No? That’s all that’s necessary … YES or NO.
McAnon wrote:
“Do you, Sue M., or any of your immediate blood relatives have a diagnosis of Autism: Yes OR No? That’s all that’s necessary … YES or NO”.
– Oh, yes, I’m supposed to give more personal information to someone who posts under McAnon here? Sure.
– Sue M.
Yes or No, Sue. That’s all. It’s easy.
Hi Sue,
But until that time when we do know that thimerosal causes autism (or more likely not I think), we can’t conclude large scale affects like that it causes autism, a la the conclusions of Generation Rescue and some of our fellow members of EoHarm.
(sighs)
I just commited the fallacy of begging the question..
Please ignore my last post, I retract it.
Long week and long day, good night.
I say we sue all the antivaxers for encouraging parents to put their kids born and unborn at risk for vaccine preventable diseases. Better yet, we tell the parents of the kids who die from vaccine preventable illnesses where their lawyers can find Sue Misias*ek and gang. Not that the antivaxers would end up paying for their crimes.
Sue said: I do believe that the evidence is mounting that it could, in fact, play a role in triggering autism.
I, in turn, do believe that the evidence is mounting that it does, in fact, play little to no role.
Please do present your evidence, though I’m sure it has been refuted time and again. I would like to see a rebuttal of the evidence I’ve presented, however.
I do have to say you’re right about one thing. It was a noble effort to remove Thimerosal from vaccines. This is just as noble as fighting for a clean environment and safe drugs. But what the heck does it have to do with autism?
McCamille wrote:
“I say we sue all the antivaxers for encouraging parents to put their kids born and unborn at risk for vaccine preventable diseases”.
Not a bad idea. I feel pretty confident that I personally wouldn’t be going to trial. The trial would however help to get the facts out there about the ridiculousness of some of the vaccinations that are given today. The Hep B for instance. The flu vaccine as another. Be honest about the RISK/REWARDS of each vaccine… what’s so hard about that for you to grasp? I thought that you were intelligent?
So go ahead and get a group together to push this idea forward…
– Sue M.
Sue wrote: Be honest about the RISK/REWARDS of each vaccine…
I’ve argued that’s an important consideration with any drug or treatment. And I’d add: Be honest about the RISK/REWARDS of chelation therapy.
Joseph wrote:
“I’ve argued that’s an important consideration with any drug or treatment. And I’d add: Be honest about the RISK/REWARDS of chelation therapy”.
– Since you are relatively new to this blog (I think), I would like to remind you that I have never endorsed/promoted chelation therapy. I certainly have respect for parents who have made that decision… and I have heard many testimonies that it has been key for some children’s improvement… but it’s just not something that I typically get involved with. I would love to see any chelation type safety studies/effectiveness studies. No issue from me on that. Now, if we could just get the same studies done on say, the flu vaccine…
– Sue M.